Xakihn

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You went, then the next turn came, hence saying on Wednesday I was waiting for Damien and Shalewigg to move because the surviving guard didn't get a turn.


I haven't ironed out all the rules yet, but I probably won't ban any classes. Synthesist maybe. I don't much like that one.


Tried to wait it out for Shalewigg's other turn since it sucks to skip someone on the first combat, but we need to keep it moving and it sucks harder to get snagged this earlier. Sorry, but you've been skipped this round.

Damien's attack fails to do anything, striking the guard's armor noisily, but nothing else. Panic sets in as he grabs his club and swings wildly at his attacker, impulsively trying to take back the situation despite being vastly outnumbered. There's something almost excited beneath the raw panic, as though an opportunity to start slaping prisoners around has been something he's waited for.

Attack: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (15) + 4 = 19
Damage: 1d6 + 2 ⇒ (4) + 2 = 6

Half of all damage done with these clubs is nonlethal.


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Yeah, basically. Vigilante as your gestalt gives a certain cohesiveness to it and will probably keep things a bit steadier because you won't have a massive imbalance in gestalt possibilities, you're just taking the chassis of Vigilante and putting on top of it another class to flesh the idea out. No "I like this fun little combination that's quirky and on-theme but not too strong" in the party with something very optimized and absurd. The Vigilante options all provide synergy in their own ways for people to lean toward.


I don't think race points is where I want to go with this. It works for trying to recreate heroes or getting a feel for more conventional Superman types, but I still feel like the best explanation of the idea, even if it wasn't positively charged, was "Pathfinder in tights". Race points kind of take away from that.

And I think variant multiclassing where you had to take Vigilante would be really restrictive and samey as hell.


Yeah, please don't continue arguing who'd win against whom, it usually just goes in circles forever.

Thankfully, I think building heroes from the ground up instead will open up a bit more flexibility in letting people take the archetypes and let them grow into characters within the established world and setting, rather than having to strip back elements, on top of letting concepts grow a little. Letting the myths evolve and grow into something unique and reflecting on their deeds instead of just following the expected lines to match the source material.


Pulp also works, thanks Tark. I'm usually not quite this bad at words. Yeah, definitely some pulpy elements in there, but mostly at the beginning. I do want to get up into the higher end stuff as time goes on just like any proper Pathfinder game does, and pulp usually doesn't have dragons threatening cities.

On the issue of Avengers versus Justice League, it also helps to note that the "core" Avengers team all translate fairly easily into Pathfinder without massive adjustments to them the way a lot of iconic Leaguers would need. Not perfect 1:1 translations, but it's easier to run a guy who was alchemically experimented on and throws a shield around, than to run an alien who can fly and punch things really hard, to be brief and snarky about it.

EDIT: Default aliases are a bother so I'll continue conducting this in my WotW GM alias for simplicity's sake.


No he is indeed hostile, he just can't really take an action on the previous turn, and so I'm waiting on yours and Shalewigg's before he does something.


Diplomacy is also not a free action.

Shalewigg's threat does little to draw cooperation from the guard, nor does Soren's more 'diplomatic' approach to the situation, leaving him a little terrified in addition to his general disorientation in your escape and the slaughter of his partner, but he doesn't seem to want to cooperate very much with you. "Go to hell."


Even if there's no enemy movement, please wait for Shalewigg's action that turn before we roll over into the next one.


Soren strikes the guard where it counts, piercing him with the dagger right through his armor and leaving him gasping and choking, primed for Damien's strike to do him in and leaving him unconscious as he slumps to the ground, barely even clinging to life in that state anyway.

The second guard begins to awaken, not from the mad clamour of the attack, but from the very short sleep hex beginning to wear of. His head lifts off the table, the man very confused and uncertain about what's happening around him.

He's considered surprised for the purposes of this combat and will not be taking any action this turn.


Alias is marked as inactive.

I'd like to ask everyone to please format their race bar to have something along the lines of what Xoruk does, so the info is all there and handy, since I had to grab initiative off of everyone's aliases, and it's handier to have it there for my convenience. Also, Soren, your sheet lacks a mention of initiative.

As for how I handle initiative:
I'll do all the rolls for everyone so that we can set the order right away, alphabetically and then enemies below them. Rather than go in the strict order of highest to lowest, I split the initiative into 'brackets' divided up by where enemies are. When it's your bracket, you can post, even if you share it with someone higher. Once everyone in the bracket has posted, the enemy moves, followed by anyone below that. For that reason, unless there's a special or notable enemy like a boss, enemies will share their initiative.

The hope is that with this system, we can move combat a little quicker. Rather than waiting for everyone to be able to post one by one, we should ideally be able to get at least one round done every 24 hours this way. I stole this shamelessly off a PBP I was in elsewhere, and it's worked out very well in my experience.


Please leave describing the actions of NPCs to me, Shalewigg.

Will save: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (3) - 1 = 2

One of the guards lets out a fairly noisy yawn mid-word, closing his eyes and slumping forward a little, the cards in his hand dropping down to the table.

"Oh come on, not again," the other groans. "Our shift ain't even that hard, they ain't goin' anywhere, wake up." He continues to mutter under his breath, reaching forward and nudging the other guard into waking up.

As he focuses on that task, Damien works at the cell door, managing to pick the lock, which due to its cheap make is a little noisier than one would like.

Perception: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (11) + 6 = 17

As the cell door opens, it makes a clicking noise loud enough to draw the frustrated guard's attention, and he looks curiously with a, "Huh?" toward the source of the noise, to find a slowly opening cell door. "Shit!" he gasps.

Combat time.

Damien's Initiative: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (15) + 4 = 19
Shalewigg's Initiative: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (4) + 1 = 5
Soren's Initiative: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (14) + 3 = 17
Xoruk's Initiative: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (14) + 3 = 17
Guard's Initiative: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 1 = 3

Since the whole party rolled higher than the guard, you can all post in order of 'whoever gets there first'. I'll explain how I handle initiative a little more clearly in the discussion thread.


Each is armed with a sword and the leather clubs mentioned earlier, as well as a longbow, although those currently sit off to the side of the two guards on duty with you.


It's only the four of you in this cell.


Soren swiftly undoes everyone else's bindings, leaving them now free to move and plan. The cell bars offer some cover and there's nobody looking in your direction, but overt movements and anything too noisy certainly seem counter-intuitive as with each passing moment, the chance of one of the guards looking over their shoulder toward you becomes more and more likely. At some point, they will make a token effort to actually guard you, and at that point you're going to be in trouble.

But for the moment, you're all free, and have the remaining patches at your disposal. You're on a fairly limited amount of time in which to formulate a plan and execute it while you still have the chance, but can safely huddle in now and hatch it quietly.


Your familiar is MIA right now, and out of the one mile radius where you can empathy them.


About twenty feet away from your cell door, playing cards at a table. They are the only guards in the room with you. You haven't seen much of the prison and don't know who is where, so everything outside the door is sort of beyond you, but you do know that you were led up a lot of stairs on your way up. You've been blindfolded through most of your trip here.


Didn't mention it since you wouldn't know from the patch, but they're masterwork thieves' tools.

Soren's shackles come undone, granting the tiefling freedom of motion again. Her escape is still not drawing the attention of the guards, who couldn't care less about what you're doing as long as you're quiet, confident that you've no chance of getting loose, let alone escaping.. The patch on the veil that denoted a lockpick set is now gone, leaving only the plain silk beneath it.


Don't read this guys:
1d20 ⇒ 5[/dice]

With a little wriggling, Soren manages to slip free of her manacles, and does so without so much rattling that the guards pay her any mind. In fact, they're only speaking louder now, the matter of threatening Shalewigg now a distant memory as they start to play cards. There isn't much else to do aside from playing cards, but the clattering of coins on the table says there's certainly a little benefit to it. Without any supervision, Soren's hands are now free.


Damien:
The sergeant seems to be under the effects of a charm spell of some kind, but you can't tell much more than that or who he's beholden to.

Soren:
Please keep private stuff only you can see in spoiler tags.

Soren's questions only seem to amuse the woman, who laughs softly. "The less you know, the better. As for the veil, look a little closer perhaps, and you'll see that my manner of dress is as functional as it is stylish."

Upon closer inspection of the white silk veil, you can make out what initially seemed like patterns, but are in fact distinct shapes that can be torn off of the veil. Patches. What you're holding is in fact a magical item, and upon pulling each patch off of the veil, the object they represent will be drawn from the magical cloth. Two daggers, a Bullseye lantern, a coil of rope, a bag of spell components and clothes, thieves' tools, a window, a potion of some manner, gold, and an unholy symbol of Asmodeus.

"Our mutual friend has given you the necessary tools required to escape this forsaken prison. To be the first in history, in fact. If you prove as useful as he hopes you will, then you and your cellmates can use these tools to show your worth. Now swiftly, tuck it into your sleeve and begin to think of a plan. You have three days to find us." With her message delivered, Tiadora rises almost as if on cue, Blackerly returns to the room to check on you. Immediately, her demeanour shifts once more and she is again the pefect picture of grief. "No, I cannot bear to leave you!" She gives you a kiss to the cheek, ice cold and feeling somehow alien. Inhuman.

"I'm afraid it's time, miss," the sergeant says, shaking his head.

Looking deep into his eyes, she says, "Thank for you for letting me say goodbye . There's no need to search my beloved. You are such a good friend for letting me see her one more time."

"Such a good friend," he repeats, his voice almost mechanical. Then the watch sergeant seems to snap out of his gaze and bows politely. "A pleasure, madam."

Tiadora leaves unveiled, eyes meeting yours one fine time as she flashes a wicked smile before disappearing. "Three days," echoes telepathically in your mind. "Don't disappoint me, dearest."

With the visitation concluded, Soren carried back to her cell by the cadre of guards and shackled once more. With snarls, the other guards back off, closing the cell door behind them and leaving only the two initial guardsmen, who retire to their table for cards, backs turned from the cell. They know you're not going anywhere.


Every so often, a guard will rise from the table, coming over to inspect you, mostly just on the vague hope that one of you may have succumbed already to your conditions and given up hope and life. Each time he does, he lets his leather club run along each bar, a rubbing sound followed by a noise clang each time it snaps forward to strike against the next one. He does it now, and when he reaches the end, where Shalewigg continues to tell stories, he points his club through the bars at the manacled woman. "Oy, do ya want me to go down t' the kennel and put a muzzle on ya? Because if ya don't stop I have no problems treatin' a beast like you like a dog. Yer all but telin' me ya're one anyway."

Before he can make good on his threat, the door opens, something you've come to expect on a strict schedule of every three hours, but this is far too early inthe guard rotation. Six guards emerge and enter the space in front of your cell, heavily armed and led by the fat and well-dressed sargeant of the watch, Blackerly. Everything about him screams of toadiness and greed, and seeing his face again brings back memories of the brands whose marks still sting on your arms. He was laughing at your cries, mocking and insulting you as your skin burned, although the fiery hiss of the brand and the searing pain that followed dulled your senses too much to make out the exact words.

But now, he seems different. Dazed, his eyes a little too blank, jaw slack for reasons other than the general lack of intelligence that earns someone with connections a post this owly. He coes in and points directly toward Soren. "You there! That's the scum! Get 'er unshackled. If any of you makes trouble, you'll earn a thrashing! Today's your lucky day, scum, you've got a visitor. How you ever warranted such a fine lady is beyond me. Seems she wants to say good-bye. Now step lively. We wouldn't want to keep her waiting."

Soren:
You're expecting no one. But before you can even think about who might have come to visit you or why, four of the guards are upon you, undoing your manacles and dragging you by the wrists out of the cell and toward a meeting room. One of them keeps a club brandished threateningly until you're shoved down into a chair in the small room, lit by a couple dying torches. They leave you behind, and you're sitting face to face with your "visitor", a woman whom you have never seen before. You would remember if you had, because before you is a woman of haunting beauty, with hair so platinum it verges upon white, and eyes of a vibrant and unearthly green. Her elegant black dress and soft silken veil make her seem like she's dressed for a funeral, and streaks of tears run along her face.

"Oh dearest, I'm so relieved you're still alive!" She quickly turns toward the sargeant, "Could we please have a moment alone, good sir? For pity's sake!"

The blank-eyed man stares for a moment, before nodding. "Of course, my lady. For you, 'tis no problem." He and his guards swiftly leave you be.

Sense Motive: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (18) + 9 = 27

You place the general sense that something is off about the well-fed man, and watching him respond to her request gives you some context. Somehow, she holds some sort of power over the guard. Magical, perhaps.

As soon as the guards leave, her demeanour imediately changes. With a wry smirk and the complete lifting of any sense of grief upon her face, she asks"Have you forgotten me already, dearest? Call me Tiadora. We possess a mutual friend who would like to meet you and your fellow cell-mates. Unfortunately, our friend is unwilling to visit you in your present, rather shabby accommodations, so it seems you must escape first. But don't be so dour. Just because it's never been done before is no reason you can't be the first.

"If you can manage that, cross the moars on the outskirts of town. On the old Moor Road you'll see a manor house with a single lantern burning in the second story. There, our mutual friend awaits. That is all I know. And from him, as a show of good faith, is this, to remember me by." She pulls off her silk veil and hands it to you, her amused smile rather at odds with the face of someone who had just been sobbing.

Everyone else:
Whatever threat that guard made toward Shelwigg seems to have been dropped, as though he was looking to get abusive with an inmate and the presence of others has put to rest those aspirations. Of course, with the cell door open and your numbers now three guards to one remaining cellmate, they still seem to be unreasonly confrontational and aggressive. Most brandish their clubs, but one in the back has his sword almost drawn, and their piercing gazes seem rather scrutinizing, as if waiting for a reason to lash out at you.


Gameplay is up.


In the kingdom of Talingarde, many crimes may send you to Branderscar Prison, but the sentence has but one meaning. You are wicked and irredeemable. Each of you received the same greeting when you arrived. You were held down by rough hands and branded upon the arm with a runic F. The mark signifies ‘forsaken’ and the painful scar is indelible proof that each of you has betrayed the great and eternal love of Mitra and his chosen mortal vassals.

Condemned, you face at best a life of shackles and servitude in the nearby salt mines. Others might await the “gentle” ministrations of the inquisitors so that co-conspirators may be revealed and confessions extracted. Perhaps, some of you will be spared this ordeal. Perhaps instead you have come to Branderscar to face the final judgment. In three days, the executioner arrives and the axe falls or the pyre will be lit. Through fire or steel, your crimes will be answered.

You have all been chained together in the same communal cell dressed in nothing but filthy, tattered rags. Manhandled and mistreated, any finery you once possessed is either ruined or long lost. No special treatment has been given any prisoner – male or female, commoner or noble – all of the forsaken are bound and imprisoned together. Your feet are secured by iron cuffs tethered by one long chain. Your arms are secured to the wall above by manacles. A guard is posted right outside the cell day and night. Little thought is given to long term accommodations. At Branderscar, justice comes swift and sure.

Escape seems hopeless. You have all been well searched and every attempt to conceal anything on your person has failed. And if you could somehow slip your bonds and fly out of this prison, where would you go? Who from your former life would want anything to do with the forsaken?

Despised, alone and shackled – all that you can do now is await your doom. For each of you, your old life is over. For each of you, hope is a fading memory. For each of you, justice will be fairly meted. And who can blame fair Talingarde after what each of you has done?


Still pretty easily. Pathfinder doesn't have any real concept of "facing", and so it's easy to just say someone gets on the other side of someone to get a flank going.


I appreciate the offer, but we're going mapless for this. Offroad villainy.

Also, Soren, for the crossbow thing, it doesn't seem like you really gain anything exploitative from using the heavy repeating with the feats, so I don't see any problem with it.


I'll give the crossbows thing a look over later, probably tomorrow, given how bad my head is right now. But I can't think of any major problems with it at the moment.


Alright, I've made my choices. This was not an easy field to narrow down at all, and spending a very long time reading and rereading and having to make some really tough decisions has left me with a b%~#%ing migraine, but I've finally whittled it all down, and the final party is:

Damien Dalkarta
Shalewigg
Soren Marsailles
Xoruk Ironmaw

Sorry to everyone who didn't make it, but I'll keep some of your applications in mind in case we lose a player. Everyone who did make it, please refer to the discussion thread.

Thanks for coming out, guys.


Okay, everyone report to here. I'll begin gameplay some time tomorrow, so in the meantime, ask any last minute questions or make whatever small changes you have to before we begin.


There's a little under 90 minutes before the deadline, and I've got little else to do so I'll probably have my decisions by then, so this is everyone's last chance.


Also, in regards to Riuk's list; it's not "official" in the sense that several listed characters are missing things like a second class or backstories, so double check your stuff and make sure it's all there, guys. At a second's glance, Grumblejack and Theodoric jump out as lacking their fluff. There's plenty of hours left, make sure all your stuff is sorted out and there, guys. Double check against my guidelines if you have to.


In regards to Devilbound and Graveknight and the like, since Vampire and Lich are both on the table for players, I could entertain allowing certain things down the line that come with their own costs and roleplaying, but that is pretty far out at the moment. I'd say while it's off the table for creation, don't rule it out, since even that jump in power is easily taken care of on my end.

@Soren: It is very relieving to know Soren isn't going to be one of those.

@CampinCarl: It's not going to increase anyone's odds, especially this late in the game, so I'd advise against it, personally. Not something I'm very fond of.


No double Wisdom modifiers.


Unless someone needs the extra day to finish their characters, in which case I need to be warned in advance about that, I'll close recruitment some time tomorrow evening. I'm in Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5), and so somewhere between 6-8 I'll make my selections. Anyone who needs an extension until Sunday evening has 24 hours to ask for one, although if people can get their apps done by the deadline as it is, that would be very much preferable.


Oh. Okay that does change things a little bit. In that event, I'd say that Undead Barbarian could be made available as a Rage Power, just so it doesn't remain a free shift in ability score scaling.


Man, the more I read it, the weirder it f++@ing gets. I'd say that no, it wouldn't have any bonus to skills since there's none listed. As far as familiar abilities go, it would gain the Intelligence score, empathic link, store spells, the modified deliver touch spells, speak with master, and scry on familiar. That would allow you to communicate with the spirits inside of it (as per the archetype's flavour) and be able to track it in the event it gets misplaced/taken.


@Riuk: The description for the poppet says it's inanimate, so no movement, no familiar feats. I see it more as an Arcane Bond that can do ranged touch spells.

@JDPhipps: Bolt Ace would be fine solely because of the lack of gun, but you will lose Gunsmithing and the firearm doesn't matter because you begin with nothing anyway.

@Kasanar: Leadership probably won't be allowed.


@Philo: That's pretty close to how I was intending to treat it.

@N. Specter: It'd be best to just stick with Barb as it is. I'm not too keen on houseruling around Con-based classes so they can vamp up and gaim crazy benefits from that, just because there are already so many toys at your disposal to play with.

@Ictoo: Entirely description-based, but it stands to reason that stuff like flanking ought to be pretty easy to imagine; if two people are ganged up on an enemy and flanking them, then noting that should suffice, no? Fiddling with pieces works, but I do plenty of that on Skype-based games I play, and I want to embrace the more descriptive narrative powers of play-by-post by abandoning the board here.

@JDPhipps: Not really feeling firearms for this one. There aren't any in the AP as it stands, and I'm pretty fine with keeping it that way, sorry.

@Hwee: Yeah, I'm fine with that.


There's no chain, and it's somewhat tied into stuff much later in the campaign, but the process will involve giving up a feat, 120,000 GP, 120 days to craft the phylactery, and rituals.


@Vesvius: These wouldn't be problems. Everyone has to have a "first" game somewhere, right? As long as I don't suspect you're cheesing the game with your OOC knowledge, I won't mind either, and I think it'd be really boring and non-fun for somebody to. As for space, I won't name the party until recriutment closes, so right now there is only space.

@Korginard: Not a problem, but one small tip I have owuld be to use spoiler tags for your fluff and such, just to make the page a little shorter for everyone to scrool through. As for mixing the familiar and eidolon, I could allow that, but I'd have to come up with some kind of penalty for the idea just because that much damage to a familiar ought to be an issue. On top of that, if slain, the familiar will have to get out of dodge before it's killed too, or else you might be locked out of making spells for a little while. Witches are even more beholden to their familiars, so I can't have them being completely impervious to danger.


Nothing's missing, I just missed your post on my sweep. You'll be on the next version of it.


Eidolons that look like goblins are fine, since they can be easily dismissed when a situation requires it. Goblin PCs aren't so easy taken care of, and they tend to stick out like pretty sore thumbs even when people aren't on the lookout for one. The races I listed are all at least sort of human-passing, or with traits that can easily be hidden through clothing or disguise rolls. Goblins are good at a kind of stealth, but not this kind, so it's a bit more of an issue. But for familiars/eidolons/etc. you can go as outlandish as the rules say if you'd like, because they can be left behind, while players can't.


@Steven: Nothing I have any issue or worries about, so go for it.

Also, here's a quick running list of all the characters who've submitted both crunch and fluff so far. If you're missing, either your haven't posted one of these two things and your submission is thus incomplete (or you said you were tweaking major elements, such as previously made characters who aren't gestalted yet), or my quick scan of the thread before I go run errands caused me to miss you, in which I'm sorry and just prod me about it.

-Baruk Taladro, Skinwalker Barbarian/Alchemist
-Damien Dalkarta, Fetchling Antipaladin/Rogue
-Hwee Last, Half-Orc Oracle/Antipaladin
-Kasanar Vindakay, Aasimar Cavalier/Magus
-Keena D'or, Tiefling Monk/Kineticist
-Lysander Tremayne, Dhampir Antipaladin/Swashbuckler
-Rosa Luminaass, Tiefling Cleric/Fighter
-Slevin Wraith, Human Inquisitor/Slayer


It's much more of a late-campaign issue, once you're getting into the higher end of enemies. Fire isn't bad to have the domain for, but I meant specifically for channeling; you're not going to be facing a wealth of ice-based enemies in Talingarde's ranks, so the benefit to it is sort of wasted.


@Riuk: Unless I take issue with something about your character or need clarification I probably won't comment on anyone's characters, so take my silence as the assurance that everything is fine.

@Rosa: Fire is actually not a great thing to specialize in, since although you're rolling with Asmodeus, you'll be fighting the god of the sun. I will allow it though, so if you're adamant, you can have it.


Since the character isn't in any classes that require a deity, I don't mind venerating the Horseman, since that doesn't really cause alignment issues with having to swear loyalty to Asmodeus, as you'll need to. So it comes down more to exactly how he wishes to venerate Famine and if his actions can all line up fine with the issues of restrained villainy and such. I had kind of mentally slipped up and misremembered Oracle as needing to choose a god, so you're not running afoul of my rules at all for outright worshipping Famine.


@Ictoo: No maps.

@Gars: I'll come clean here and not beat around the bush; yes that was me. I had a bit of an anxiety flare-up when it was around time to finish things up and realized I was in over my head, got scared and bolted. But now, I'm more confident after having successfully run games online via Skype and in person with friends, and have the GM experience I was lacking so badly back then. It was too late to come back and apologize by the time I realized how bad I'd messed up, but I won't make that same mistake again. I've come a long way in the past seven months (and am on meds for said anxiety.)

@Steve T. Helt: Oh, okay I thought you meant Famine as in the Horseman. Famine as a concept makes much more sense, as long as you can make a compelling villain based on that, and can rationalize the fact that he's in a group looking to rebuild the society they seek to destroy.

@Wondering_Monster: Yeah, I'll allow it, but it does have the added obstacle of being a year removed from actually havign support for it in the equipment/feats department. But if you're fine with that, then yes.


Occultist is allowed, but as I said earlier, any Occult Adventures classes will be subject to any changes from the playtest material to the finished product when it launches. It's close enough to coming out that it probably won't matter very much even if there are big changes, but that's the only catch.


@Campincarl: I knew I forgot something. Yes, as the book advises, two extra skill points per level, since villains are supposed to be better than heroes.

@thunderbeard: That's fine.


Doomed Hero:
For backstory, I don't know if you've read the AP, but if not I will PM you all the info about him to base it off of from there. For the matter of starting as a normal ogre, being CR 3 is just too much fixing and adjusting, so having some kind of alternate solution seems best, personally. I didn't even picked up on Scarred Witchdoctor and the compatibility issues, but yes Racial Heritage would be a must.

Like I said, there's the possibility of taking a modified version of the Half-Ogre playable race a short way down the page I listed above, that lacks racial hit dice and is a Large creature. Compensating for the size and having the ability score adjustments listed, you would build at a point buy of only 15 to prevent too much cheese in the Strength department and to try and balance things a little more clearly. This would give you all the Ogre stuff you needed without having to level adjust, which is preferrable seeing as juggling templates and monster levels is something I'd like to avoid.

The other would be to play a medium creature and reskin Orc of Half-Orc a little. With this option, I'd waive Racial Heritage, but you would obviously be much less mechanically Ogrey

Neither of them are quite playing Grumblejack as he is out of the box, but to allow an NPC to become a PC, especially one who starts of significantly stronger than the party and presenting some bookkeeping issues that would still open up a few issues as far as reaching the break even point with the rest of the party, I feel like there has to be a little bit of tweaking to make them feel a bit more like a regular PC.

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