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Nar'shinddah Sugimar

VM mercenario's page

1,321 posts (1,328 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Bandmember: Have ranks in a Performance skill, without being a bard (or skald or similar class), while being in a party with a bard (or skald or similar class)


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You separated the feats by what class feature or ability the affect. You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman and you have my praise.


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A lot of the problems with the class could be solved with the right Wild Talents. Here is my attempt at them:

Elemental Resistance:
Elemental Attunement
Element Air, Water, Earth or Fire; Type Su; Level 4; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
You gain resistance 5 against eletricity, acid, fire or cold, matching your element. This increases to resistance 10 at tenth level, resistance 20 at 15th level and immunity to that elementat 20th. If you learn to use another element you can take this talent again to gain the associatd resistance.
Additionaly if you have fire resistance you are immune to enviromental heat effects. If ou have cold resistance you are immune to enviromental cold effects. If you have acid resistance you are immune to nonlethal damage from hustling and forcedmarch and are immune to starvation and thirst as long as you are in solid ground. If you have eletric resistance you are immune to suffocation as long as you're not completely submerged, and can hold your breath for one minute per point of constitution.

Defeating Elemental Resistance:

Nuclear fire
Element Fire; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is fire, expanded element (fire)
You can use fire so hot it disintegrates matter. When you hit with a fire blast you can, as an swift action, accept one point of burn and instead of dealing damage reduce the targets fire resistance by 10, to a minimun of zero. Alternatively you can accept 2 burn to transform fire immunity in fire resistance 40 or to give fire vulnerability to a target that doesn't have fire resitance. This effects last for a number of rounds equal to your con modifier plus the burn points you are suffering. This effects stack.

Absolute Zero
Element Water; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is water, expanded element (water)
You can bring a cold so potent it defies the laws of magic. This functions as Nuclear Fire but with cold blasts and cold resistance.

Aqua Regia
Element Earth; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is earth, expanded element (earth)
You mix a number of acids into a single substance capable of corroding any material. This functions as Nuclear Fire but with acid blasts and acid resistance.

Supercharge
Element Air; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is air, expanded element (air)
You gather millions of volts in a single blast that burns away any insulation. This functions as Nuclear Fire but with eletric blasts and eletric resistance.

Yeah, if you're willing to spend six rounds and take 8 burn you can make a fire elemental be weak against fire. That is not a bug, it's a feature.

Versatility:

Air could have a sound blast and some measure of sound control.

Fire could be used to make fire with less heat and more light or different types of light, or to make flashes to dazzle or blind:
Sunfire
Element Fire; Type Sp; Level 3; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 7
You can conjure a fire that sheds light like a daylight spell. You can accept one burn to affect creatures as if it was daylight, double the radius of illumination or to count as a 6th level spell for cancelling magical darkness.

Earth could have create pit as a sp; the ability to make earthquakes or something like this:
Create Difficult Terrain
Element Earth; Type Su; Level 4; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 5
You can make small spikes on the ground, raise feet level walls or even make quicksand in order to hinder your foes. You create an area of difficult terrain around you. This area is the square you occupy plus all the adjacent squares. At tenth level this area extends by another five feet. You ignore the difficult terrain you make with this ability. If you have extended reach you can create this are at any point in thirty feet instead of centered on you.


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Tell this to your players:
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe he summoned a bunch of clones of himself. You think they may be illusions. Whatever they are they move to fast to notice which ones are translucent and make it harder to attack the real one."
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe she is invisible. She is still invisible, you just have a mental breakdown and deluded yourself in seeing an imaginary person who probably doesn't look like your enemy, is not in the same place or doing the same thing.
The rest of you see him attacking the air. You're not sure if he is attacking the invisible enemy, gone mad or if there are two enemies now."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You know he used a spell to make illusory Mirror Images. Everybody else knows that because they have eyes and saw the mirror images that appeared out of thin air."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You realize he is casting a Invisibility spell about half a second before he turns invisible. Your sudden exclamation of 'He is casting invisibility!' is met with a chorus of 'Thank you, captain Obvious.'"


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Authorities in fantasy universes need adventurers. Because, as a rule, they are straight up better than regular soldiers.

When an orc band attacks a village, if the king doesn't send the army the village dies, because an orc band will destroy a villages police/militia. So if adventurers appear and say "You seem to have a orc/drow/hobgoblin problem. We are adventurers that will take care of it for you for X amount of cash!" the mayor is likely to sing allellujah and pay extra. Better than being killed together with his village.

When a dragon shows on the country side, armies die. Ten thousand arrows from ten thousand soldiers tickle Smaug. The very few people with enough power to take on a dragon usually have better stuff to do, are to afraid of trying to do it alone, or just don't care about your kingdom. So when a roaming bunch of adventurers shows up wanting to fght your dragon or, better yet, already famous for killing dragons, you promise them as much money as they want. If they die you don't lose anything. If they win, you would have to be a special kind of stupid to refuse paying or send assassins against people that can kill dragons.

And if they are calling adventurers for something, like in published material, it is usually something where normal resources have already failed, so they are calling in the specialists. And it doesn't matter what sort of problem you think you have, you pay the specialist rates. If you call the best law firm available for a shut case, you still pay the price for the best law firm. If you hire a five star chef for a night and ask him to make a grilled cheese, you still pay the cost of five star chef. If you hire a team of high risk mercenaries to kill dire rats, you still pay the cost of a team of high risk mercenaries.

And any politician that tries to make disappear the group of well trained, well equiped and well prepared adventurers that just did something his usual teams of assassins and soldiers couldn't, well... He deserves what happens when said group of well trained, well equiped and well prepared adventurers comes after his head.

Treating adventurers as vigilantes or outlaws only gets you outlaws that can break castle walls, kill armies, control the elements, summon the forces of hell, turn nobles into tadpoles, raise armies of the dead and other really unpleasant things. Better pay them to do 'adventuring' where the good and neutral ones can kill the more evil ones, than turn them all against you. Some long forgotten king must have realized that it's best to divide and conquer, than to unite and lose.


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You destroy him. Chunky salsa flies everywhere. For a moment you see a translucent form of him and then it too is hit by the afterimage of your strike. An observing cleric or wizard can tell you that not only you killed him but somehow managed to kill his soul. For a quick moment you see Pharasma standing by your side looking flabbergasted, her mouth hanging open and her arms waving in a 'what the hell' motion. The she turns at you with a scowl and a glare and dissappears. Alternatively you see Zon-Khuton looking impressed. He turns and offers two thumbs up and what passes for a smile and then dissapears. If you are quick enough to raise an empty hand before he dissapears, he gives you a high five and then dissapears.


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Le Petite Mort wrote:
Okay, maybe the example I gave was more distracting than clarifying. To rephrase my question more explicitly, are characters railroaded into believing everything said to them at face value if they fail a given Sense Motive check?

Yes.

Le Petite Mort wrote:

It seems to me that a character who is bad at sense motive would be aware that they are bad at it, much in the same way that someone with low Knowledge (planes) knows that they know little about the workings of the outer planes and their denizens. Do low SM characters automatically believe that what is said to them is true all the time, or do they merely gain no additional information from the GM about the motivations of those they speak with?

The latter interpretation seems more sensible to me.

Gullible people are not aware that they're gullible. Gullible people in fact believe themselves to be really good at detecting lies. It's what makes them gullible.

In your example Thoggs response could be "Ha knew you wren't half devil, that ain't even a thing. Who would have sex with devils anyway?"


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AndIMustMask wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
i say 'human' fist because it's much more cost-effective to chop it off and have a clockwork prosthetic instead (which is real freakin' backhanded to monks there paizo).
This is a thing? Where? How? How much? Stop standing there gawking, you fool! Tell me now! I NEED IT.

clockwork prosthetics, from magical marketplace. they're fairly cheap (6400g a pop i think? so you're basically enchanting a firearm--pardon the pun), grant hilariously good bonuses vs various combat maneuvers, drastically increases your lift and carry weights (respectively), function in non-magic fields, can't be sundered since it's a part of your body (and you can't do that for some reason in pathfinder) and--here's the kicker--can be enchanted as if it were a weapon (for it's usual price and all the way to +10 total bonus) with any affect that would work with an unarmed strike. so it's a cheaper and more powerful AoMF with loads of peripheral benefits attached.

you just have to live the the fact that in paizo's twisted mind, you LITERALLY have to pay an arm and/or a leg to be good at unarmed combat.

i'm honestly tempted to rake up the dough to get all four limbs replaced (only enchanting one main one and a secondary for side benefits) and just run around grumbling "i didn't ask for this!" as i kick people in the face with my energy legs.

warning: don't stick brilliant energy on them or they'll be functionally useless for mundane tasks (your leg would sink through the nonliving floor, hands couldn't grab nonliving stuff, etc.), though it WOULD let you punch people through walls.

You can use command words to turn brilliant energy (or any other weapon ability) on and off. So your hands work normally when you want but when combat begins you can say "This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! Its burning grip tells me to defeat you! SHINING FINGER!"


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

In matters of taste, there can be no disputes.

The only response the OP requires is "Cool story, bro!" :)

Bah, his story is boring, cliche, and full of plot holes. What isn't purple prose is succint to the point of confusion. His characters are flat and uninteresting, his descriptions are meandering and lifeless and his action scenes are laughable and his attempt at moralization is forced, simplistic and confusing. His story is not cool.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Since it actually wasn't impossible for humans on Earth, VM, I'm not sure how much your otherwise pretty reasonable consideration applies. Of course, people in Pathfinder are designed to basically be able to pull off any style just by virtue of freakin' insane stats. Hell, I bet the "water balloon fighting technique" could be perfectly effective in Pathfinder.

Use it to:

- Extinguish torches!
- Distract casters!
- Freeze the water and break skulls!
- This is stupid.

EDIT: I'm not sure why you're addressing Doomed Hero with this, though—he was actually saying dual shields was a fairly viable real-life style.

I might have come out wrong. I just wanted to point out that he can do it with normal human abilities, imagine what someone who had PC stats could do with it. Not arguing with him,more using him as an example.

Heck, if you can consider a hard rubber ball filled with water as a water ballon, a barbarian with more arms strenght than the best baseball players could probably throw it with enough strenght to cave a persons skull or rib cage. A hard rubber ball, likea dodge ball, filled with water, would probably hit like it was mde of steel and weight way less. Throwing water ballons could be a viable style.


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DragGon7601 wrote:

If I take the "Weapon Group Adaptation" feet I can use Mithral Current moves with my fists... Now I just got to work out how to sheath my fist so I can punch people from 30 ft away.

Maybe if I cover it with something, like my pocket... Or my other hand... What do you guys think? Is there a way of using "Iron wave" (2nd level strike) to full effect with your fists?

Off the top of my head, there was a character in Negima that fought with his hands in his pockets, 'unsheating' his hand, punching, and 'sheating' it again so quick the enemy doesn't even how he got hit. Another idea would be long kimono style sleeves. Or maybe a fighting style where you hold yourself at military rest or at ease stance, with your hands behind your back.


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Chengar Qordath wrote:
DekoTheBarbarian wrote:

The archtypes I've liked the most so far are the Crossblooded/Untouchable Rager archtypes. Gain two bloodlines with a small penalty to Will saves (which gets canceled out with Greater Rage and Mighty Rage), and lose the very VERY limited spell casting for spell resistance that becomes permanent at level 14?

Please, sir, can I has some more?

Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.

Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.

Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.

Here's a nifty "spells are for the weak" blodrager build: Untouchable Primalist Bloodrager with the Arcane bloodline, trade Arcane Bloodage at fourth for Superstition and Witch Hunter, Trade Caster Scourge at twelve for Spellsunder and Eater of Magic. Use your bonus feat for Disruptive, Improved Initiatie, Iron Will, Spellbreaker and Combat Reflexes, in whichever order you want. Watch as anything with casting cries as your stupid high saves and spell resistance and ability to reroll failed saves make you as close as immune to magic as the game allows, while breaking enemy spells and having extra damage against casters and being always hasted. Might change Eater of Magic for Ghost Rager if you consider the bonus to touch AC is better than rerolling saves or if you can get rerolls from somewhere else.


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Artanthos wrote:
graystone wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Scavion has the right of it. Combining items is perfectly in line with the RAW, is not a house rule, and is hardly unbalanced.

Obviating the need for strength at the cost of 2000 gp, without giving up an item slot, is not unbalanced?

The choice between encumbrance or dedicating a slot to overcoming encumbrance is very much a limiting factor that prevents many builds from dumping strength down to 7 (or 5 with racial mods.) Allowing custom magic items to overcome this limit is something every GM should take a long, hard look at before permitting.

So masterwork backpacks and the Muscle of the Society trait throw everything off too?

It's really, really, really not unbalanced. And it's RAW.

Building a custom race and outfitting him with Cybernetics is also RAW. Are you going to allow that in your campaigns?

Are you going to show up to a PFS game with your custom item and try arguing RAW?

Like PFS has any semblance with RAW, RAI or balanced...


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My knee jerk reaction is why would anyone play a barbarian instead of an untouchable primalist bloodrager, except maybe for the Invulnerable Rager archetype. You lose Trap Sense for Spell Resistance, and trade ten rage powers for ten rage powers +the first level bloodline power +five feats. They've Rogued the Barbarian. Seriously.
I think I'm going to write the Primalist Guide to Stealing the Barbarians Best Toys and give it to the first person that makes a guide to the Bloodrager.


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Back to GoTG: Did anyone else notice that at one point in the climax it becomes live-action Space Invaders?
Also, best scene in the whole movie:

Spoiler:
Dancing baby/sapling Groot.


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Bandw2 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.

you can't blue screen and then get an error message...

The feat broke him so hard, it broke his blue screen. That there is some weapons grade brain breaker.


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At this point martials don't have issues anymore. They have subscriptions and collections.


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K177Y C47 wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
It was an out of combat encounter; a series of opposed stealth, track and perception checks. The outcome was obvious from the start but the slayer just had to go through the motions. The death was off screen and quite.
Quite?..... Sudden?

I think the slayer caught him mid sentence.That's what you get for divulging his secr


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markofbane wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
markofbane wrote:
John Woodford wrote:
Alex Martin wrote:
jemstone wrote:
GregH wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Dazylar wrote:
Dazylar wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Fromper wrote:
strayshift wrote:

"I'll go... uh... check on Mr Scruffy."

Sinister?

Yeah, that struck me as a bluff check, where nobody was paying enough attention to bother making a sense motive roll. Guaranteed he's stalking the vampire.
it struck me as "the best way I can help is by being out of the way"
Possibly. Just reread it & I noticed that he's kind of looking directly at Durkula as he's saying it. I suspect that Fromper & strayshift might be on to something...
Either we're totally right, or Belkar really is just worried about the vampire eating his cat. :P
Or it's both. Also, the nesting quotes are starting to look like either a pit or a pyramid, depending upon how my eyes look at it.
Both pit and pyramid are appropriate for OotS :P
That's a pretty weirdly proportioned pyramid...
I suppose it'll look right when it gets to about 35 'nests'.
That's what you get when you make pyramid out of sticks.
I think its starting to look more like a longhouse.
ALL HAIL THE NEST-QUOTE-A-MID.
50 Shades of Nest Gray pattern's forming there.
At what point does the background in the middle swamp the print?
An intriguing question. I suppose we can find out while we are waiting for the next OotS comic.

So, the OotS thread is now the how deep can nested quotes go challenge?

I'm in.

Nest it til' it breaks
Really? REALLY?!
No. Don't do that.
Don't do what, exactly?

Ignore the combobreakers!


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So, you make people roll for stats and then want them to suffer for a poor roll? Step down and stop GMing. What kind of person punishes somebody for something that isn't even their fault?
Or maybe, just maybe, don't be a jerk to the poor guys and use point buy.


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The backup weapon of the godwizard is the rest of the party. The godbotherer, the meatshield and the sneaky one. It's what he uses wen he can't be arsed to unleash his full power on the little ants.


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I think that for the forseeable future I'm incapable of rolling acrobatics without yelling Parkour!


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SiuoL wrote:

See, here is the thing, each class does certain things, it's up to your GM to make sure each classes get their chance to shine.

Wizard sucks early levels if you don't know what spells to pick, or your team is unreliable. However, you get to bend the world while still be what you are. You don't have to chance, the world change for you.

Sorcerer, not too much better than wizard in low levels, but you get to change into things that you like. Also each bloodline gives your different stuff. Elemental immune to critical hit, Draconic a little more AC and blasting power. And they don't get scared by monk as much.

Rogue is not the best at anything except sneak attack. But when your group got imprison in the dungeon with guards, only rogue can get you our. Bard can't kill all those guards in one hit without them alarming others, only the best rogue can.

Ranger sucks when not fighting his favorite enemies in his favorite terrains, but what if they do? Enough said. PS: one of the best tracing class out there.

Paladin only good when fighting evil things. But it got so much auras!!!! Immune to so many things with very good saves and some spells! Hardly anything evil can kill you.

Monk can't hit... What are you hitting? A full plate? Why would you even do that? Monk are one of the fastest, yet potentially the tankiest class there could be, only to be matched by few like Dragon Disciple with both Wings, class feat and bloodline. Have a monk charge 180ft and Quivering Palm you in the face is the scariest thing that could happen to any wizard. Also with those good saves and SR, how many spell can you use on them really?

Fighter sucks. Yea? When your team now trapped in the room in the dungeon with only one door way, no way out. Outside filled with thousands of goblins. How suck can a fighter be when he is the only class that can stand in that door way all day long? It's not very realistic but I guess in fantasy, fighters train so hard they don't feel tried from fighting.

Druid is not good in spell casting like Wizard. Wildshape at will plus level spells already allow you to be able to survive almost anything. Don't spellsling with the wizard, it's not your job. Shambler!

Cleric are only good as a healbot and their healing sucks. Really? Implosion, True Resurrection and Miracle. What can't you do?

Bard sucks at everything other than singing. Well, it's their job. Do a bit of this, do a bit of that. Just enough to survive so they can perform and make everyone better. By everyone, it's not just your team. Raise army, start war! Think bigger! Also counter song! If you GM never give you a chance to use it when you played a bard, you know he isn't very good.

Lastly, barbarian. They do run out of rage, and they can't do much once it's out. Well, at level one, it's the strongest class of all. What do you expect? Beside, they still kick ass when they rage. Can fighter dodge those touch attacks? Don't think so. Can paladins? No. Can any class that that bad ass +8 morale bonus to strength? No!!!

So there you have it, that's what I think about each classes. They are not perfectly balanced but they don't suck, just that it's not your turn to shine, or your GM sucks.

Wow! You got everything so wrong, I'm not sure you even read the Core rulebook.

Ok, Wizard and Sorcerer can suck at early levels if you completely suck at selecting spells, but that is not fault of the class or GM it's yours for being dumb. Sleep and Color Spray and whatever you want for flavor. Done.

Rogue can't kill anything in a sinlge attack after level 3, maybe 4, except some very optimized builds.

You know who can be just as good as the rogue at freeing the group from a jail cell? The Ranger. Forget favored enemy, favored terain: urban makes you better at being stealthy than the rogue could ever hope to be. And even without favored enemy they still have a wolf to do some extra damage, get some feats earlier than the fighter, and has some really nice spells (lead blades, longstrider, etc.)

Hardly anyithng can kill a paladin. Fullstop. Not just evil, neutral, lawful, chaotic and even good would have a hard time killing this guy. Also even when not fighting evil he has divine bnd to make his weapon better than what the fighter could buy, and he has spells. Anyone that thinks a fighter is the best in that door scenrio of yours has never seem a pally with Deadly Juggernaut, Weapon of Awe and Righteous Vigor going.

Wizards are going to fear charging quivering palms as soon as monks learn to fly. Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist are worthless against melee enemies because the save is just too low. Thta SR is actually a bad class feature since it stops the monk from receiving beneficial buffs. The monk also has abilities like slow fall (worse than a first level spell) and Tongue of the Sun and Moon (worse than a second level spell). He does have some good archetypes tough.

Fighters are very good at DPR noone against that. But they're not so good that a paladin, barbarian or ranger, even with all their resources spent, couldn't do the exact same thing. And if there is a single goblin shaman in that endless horde, the fighter would be the worst to have in that place, since he has the worst chance of resisting mindcontrol.

Druids are not as good at spells as a wizard but that is still better than not being a level 9 spellcaster. Also don't forget the animal companion. You know who else can stand in a doorway and kill thousands of goblins? A buffed up tiger.

Bard sucks at everything except singing? In 3.5 maybe, but not in PF anymore. PF bard outrogues the rogue. He is as good at skills and he has spells to back it up. The rogue has a little more damage but not enough to kill enemies before they sound an alarm, unless the enemies are very low level, in which case even the wizard could probably kill then in a single round.

Barbarians only run out of rage in the early levels. At high levels he has more rage rounds than he knows what to do with. And even without rage the barbarian is only a little worse at DPR than the fighter. Not a significant enough difference to really make the fighter shine.


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Lathiira wrote:
thejeff wrote:
At one point (back in the 60s?) he controlled it with magnets. Probably in an attempt to handle just such questions. Of course, other than a few demonstration panels, it did exactly the same kinds of things as it did before the magnets and after they gave up on the idea.
At one point Cap was talking to someone who had just seen him do the multiple-hit-ricochet-back trick and Cap explained. "I used to use magnets, but it threw off the balance and I was stuck standing there waiting for it to come back. So I gave up on them and learned to do it the other way." To paraphrase his answer.

I believe the super serum gave him the ability to telekinetically control round mettalic objects. I've noticed how in some comics/cartoons he can do shield stunts with trashcan lids and hubcaps when someone takes his shield away.


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If you've read the Dresden Files series, the Knights of the Cross are perfect representations of paladins. Michael specially is what every roleplayer should aspire when playing a paladin.


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666bender wrote:

last night our barbarian died.

he has saves in the statospher, and DR but the huge gian with improve vital strike made some holes in him.
sadly for the barby, he got hit on a vicious critical - and fell to begetive hit points.
the healer healed but the save was 50% worth amount of heal.
than he droppoed and as the rage ended.... he auto died.
is he normally great? yes. does he have weak spot? ofc, especially when we buff.

Any crit that can do that to a raging barbarian would have done worse to a fighter. Remember that the barbarian has more HP than the fighter, something between 4 (1st level) to at least 120 (at 20 th level). A fighter in the same position would've died before the healer could even launch his spell.

The barbarians weakness is that he lasts a round more than the fighter would before dying. I'm okay with that.


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They always said I had an explosive temperament. Toss a bomb
Undead? Well if you can't helium, can't curium, might as well barium
He will try to frighten us, but we must do like noble gases and not react.
If anyone asks "Are you sure" Like a proton, I'm positive.
You think this is hard? To me it's pretty basic.
Acid what you did there.
Don't worry, I can always find a solution.
An alchemist never dies, he justs stops reacting.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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Telessar Talimah wrote:

Lazar we did the same BI with 2the rogues at level 15-16. We handed the group of high level demons their heads through teamwork. The main damagers were in order (zen archer, ninja, magus, Scout) the bottom damagers were summoner barbarian and paladin.

The magus was a shadowdancer as was the scout. 2.25 rogues

Cheers

Paladin. Bottom damage dealer. Against demons.

Flagged for trolling.


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Tels wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
1) Half his feats are COMBAT ONLY feats. I mean, that SCREAMS "OPTIMIZE ME FOR COMBAT!" Additionally, the fighter's biggest advantage is the ability to get certain feats faster than other classes because he can move through the feat chain faster (due to his obnoxious number of feats). The thing is, if the fighter keeps stopping along the way to take Skill Focus (Basketweaving) or whatever (assuming he is not actully taking SF to get Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) to get the mad Str Buff.) then he is actually going to be no better than the ranger when it comes to feats. This will make the fighter player quite sad when his guy is barely better (if not worse) than the Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian AT THE ONE DAMN THING HE IS SUPPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT.

Uh, Fighters aren't meant to beat Barbarians, Paladins, or Rangers when they are benefiting from their spike damage. Fighters are meant to be the martial that is always good in a fight. Put the Paladin up against a non-smite target, and his biggest damage spike will be taken away (though he's still good). Put a Ranger up against a non-favored enemy and he has the same issue as the Paladin. Barbarians eventually do run out of rage, or may be fatigued.

Fighters, conversely, still get their feats and weapon training against any enemy, all day long. The fighter's only limited use ability is his HP and that's what healers are for.

Granted, yes, Barbarians effectively have limitless Rage because most parties stop pushing forward long before the Barbarian runs out (at least at middle levels and later). Paladins are also arguably the best tanks in the game. But none of that means the Fighter isn't a good fighter. He's not supposed to be the best, he's supposed to be consistent.

If a Fighter gets hit with a Ray of Exhaustion, or Waves of Fatigue, or didn't get enough sleep and is fatigued/exhausted; he fights on.
If the Fighter is up against elementals or hordes of evil enemies, each a valid target for smite; he fights on.
If the Fighter is up...

Except being 'consistent' and 'able to go all day long' is worth crap in a team game. After the casters have spent their spells and the barbarian and bard spend their rounds, and the monk spent their ki, and the pally is out of lay on hands/smites, the fighter and the rogue have three options:

1- Keep going alone and die against any level appropriate encounter.
2- Drag the party with them so they can all die while the fighter uses the enemy distraction to kill the enemies and feel good about his bad carrer choice at the cost of everybody else.
3- Rest with the team.
Well there is a fourth... Go alone and face ridiculously weak opponents and be coddled by the DM so the player can feel special.


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TheSideKick wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Not really. A Fighter can hit stuff better more consistently. Other classes can still hit stuff, and often better.

If you take archetypes out of the equation there isn't anything a Fighter can do that another class can't.

one dimensional thinking...

Caedwyr wrote:

What actual goals/effects can the fighter produce/do that other classes can't?

many many things. more then just "i hit harder", things like... wait ive had this same debate 5 times now...

i dont care anymore, i feel like im in a monk thread all over again!! same points over and over, no one willing to see that they are being to harsh and that the fighter has value outside of "i hit things hard.

And it's been five times you failed to show what else the fighter can do. Six now.


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OgreBattle wrote:
Simple question, what do you see as the Fighter's niche that the Ranger is unable to imitate?

Being super extra boring, having no base flavor, no out of combat utility, not having any important, exciting or really useful class features, being incapable of solving problems without resorting to violence, having to spend all their money and regular feats to ape what other classes get for free.

Am I missing any thing?
Ah yes, doing a little more DPR than an unbuffed, no favored enemy ranger, but not so much more as to really matter.


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Before pondering the existence of god, you should ponder the existence of paragraphs and proper capitalization of letters. I can't read what you're trying to say. It's making my eyes bleed.


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Pomkin wrote:

Yikes, this thread got really out of hand, I was just looking for mechanical ways to have the monk and fighter do stuff out of combat. I ended up killing them off and now they're playing a ranger and barbarian respectively, they are having much more fun now.

As a side note, my group never gets into issues with roll play vs role play, they usually role play their stats, but if they say something clever or something similar I'll give them a relevant bonus.

Let's see...

Anzyr wrote:

Hey now! My advice was pretty good. Fighters and Monks are ill-suited to out of combat (Fighters doubly so) and they should probably pick different classes if they want to be less useless out of combat.

Simple. Accurate. Problem-solving.

Apparently, Anzyr won the thread. Right there. [/thread]


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Cheapy wrote:

The designers hate TWF users (or, generalized to martials).

I certainly hope that anyone with the ability to think can easily see why this is an utterly ridiculous claim. This first requires some ulterior motive on the part of the designers, which is just laughable. "I hate TWF so much I'm going to add it to the game, and just SCREW THEM OVER! YEA! THAT'LL TEACH THEM! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

...Hi, you must be new to these forums and/or the PF system! Here's a secret: Monks suck, Rogues are near useless, Fighters can't have nice things. Every time a good change happens to one of these classes it gets nerfhammered so hard it breaks the feat standing next to it.

Cheapy wrote:
At one point a few hundred posts back, they said they weren't comparing to fighter or rogue.

And that is a good thing. You should balance against the barbarian and the paladin, against the bard, the inquisitor and the alchemist. You want to compare to the well designed classes, not with the bottom of the pile.

If Rogue is your measure stick you end up with the same problem the Investigator got in the playtest, and go from 'good class' to 'will never be able to meaningfully contribute in combat'.


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The Crusader wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
The Crusader wrote:

And what's the penalty for acting against your alignment? Most people would argue that you shouldn't suffer an alignment change for just a few, or only one, opposing act. But, wouldn't it be the most alarmingly chaotic thing a lawful person could do, to take a single act completely opposed to your entire world view? If you engaged in random, bizarre behavior frequently, it would simply be how you defined your code, your sense of order. Borderline lawful. But, just once...

And how lawful... or how frequently lawful does a chaotic character have to be before he faces the potential of an alignment shift? Can he ever? Isn't he always doing as he pleases... the essence of Chaos? If he can't shift, what is the point of the opposing alignments? Are you only lawful until you "fall"?

Chaos isn't randomness or bizarre behavior, and perfect unvarying order is pathological (see OCPD, not to be confused with OCD).

A character ceases to be lawful when his actions demonstrate he is at least as comfortable with flexibility (change) as order. He ceases to be chaotic when his actions demonstrate he is at least as comfortable with order (structure) as with flexibility. For example, I am a lawful person but have become less lawful over time due to association with chaotic people (who I cannot force to follow my rigid plans) and consciously training myself to improvise more. Increased lawfulness is a common byproduct of age - people sometimes become set in their ways or slip into familiar routines as they grow older.

Bhaene wrote:
Chaotic people (as others have posted) see these rules as guidelines. Thus chaos can have codes of honor, laws, traditions, etc...

This, to me, reads like Chaos = (Lawful + Options).

For example: Kaoss crosses the street everyday when he leaves his house. He uses the crosswalk every time. He never doesn't use the crosswalk. But, as long as he puts his fingers in his ears and shouts, "I'm only doing this because...

The problem you seem to have is that you think alignment is based on actions. It's not, it's about motives. It's not what you do, but why you do it.

Evil can do good actions if they want, usually as cover so people don't get suspicious, or to cut down an evil rival.
Good can do some evil stuff like killing enemies usually when they hae no other options or the options have much worse consequnces. (paladins are another matter, but theyre supposed to be extreme in their alingnment)
Lawful can break laws that go against their personal code.
Chaotic can follow laws, when they make sense to him or when he elieves he will be punished for breaking them.

Chaotic societies usually have laws like:
The Right of Hospitality: As long as your host is good toyou you have to be a good guest to him. And vice versa. If the other wrongs you, you have the right to call everybody to kick his ass. Cause if we let him be a bad guest to you then he will come o my house and I don't want that.
Weregild: You kill someone, you have to pay the family a sack of money in compensation, if you don't they can come and kill you to settle the score. If you kill hem you're badass and nobody will care enough to keep it going. If both families start a blood feud, noone cares as long as it doesn't spill. If it pills on non-family, the rest ofthe community gathers togheter and kicks both families in the ass.
Stealing: If you're caught stealing you give it back plus some compensation, we willl work the mount at the time. If the guy you stole from wants he can try to kill you. If you kill him, youkeep his stuf, if he kills you, you're dead.

All examples from actual societies. See? General guidelines, instead of rigid systems.


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aegrisomnia wrote:
Quote:
Honestly, against the Judeo-Christian God, saying one has unlimited power and actually having it are two very different things. All we see are a few miracles that 20th level Wizard could duplicate (there's even a thread on this).

Well, that's sort of moving the goalposts. What you're saying amounts to "if this deity isn't as strong as he's described as being by those who believe in him, then..." The miracles that are described are pretty clearly not meant to imply any limits in power.

Pathfinder developers' resistance to giving stat blocks to the deities is tantamount to their saying this: no matter how strong your wizard becomes, the only way to win is with the power of plot. What that means, to me, is that there is no way for a wizard of any level to beat Iomedae in a fair fight, no matter what your caster's phenomenal cosmic powers. I get that this might seem unfair, but them's the breaks as I see it.

You're the one moving the golaposts, dude. He explicitly said old school deities referring to the mithological deities, i.e. Zeus, Loki, Shiva, etc. You're the one ho brought Iomedae in to change the goalposts.


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Paladins of other alignments. Evil Paladins. Chaotic Paladins.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


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Arnwyn wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Arnwyn wrote:

Actually, a count of unique posters in one of those threads showed that there weren't that many people at all.

So... yeah. "A few".

There was an unofficial poll set up in one of the crane wing threads, 237 people have replied at the moment:

A: 52% thinks pre-nerf Crane Wing was well balanced and did not need a change.
B: 30% thinks Change was needed, but (Crane Wing) is now too weak and needs revision.
C: 17% thinks Change was needed, (Crane Wing) is now balanced and acceptable.

I'd say that when 82% of the respondents, almost 200 unique users, feel that the nerf went too far, it's disingenuous to refer to them as "a few posters".

"A few people" were the words used, actually.

200 unique users, out of hundreds of thousands of players.

Why do you erroneously presume that forum posters are 'worth more' as Pathfinder players?

(There may indeed be more people who "don't agree with the decision", but they're uncountable and untrackable. With the data we have available so far of those who didn't agree - it's miniscule number... hence "a few people". We might be able to go one step further than where we are, though - does anyone know the number of unique forum accounts on Paizo? The % could then be 200 out of that number. I'm going to guess it's still very tiny.)

And why do YOU presume the silent masses are okay with the nerf? They might agree with 'nerf was needed but not that much' or 'it was balanced'. I find it supremely arrogant of any side to just assume that the silent majority is on their side. What, you have some special superpower to know that without need of them saying anything? Are you Professor X?

A small minority, very few people, liked the nerf. The large majority of people willing to share their thoughts on the subject agree, it was way too much of an overnerf.


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Broken Zenith wrote:
Is each level of sneak attack worth an extra feat?:

No. As Unearthed Arcana shows, 9d6 sneak attack is worth only three feats. Furthermore, your math is wrong in two ways. Your "Smack Attack" does an average of 1.75 damage where Weapon Specialization does +2 damage all the time. weapon Specialization is straight up better. When you say: "Smack Attack deals an average of .75 more damage than Weapon Specialization." you mean .25 less. Also even if it were a straight equivalent to one feat, The fighter gains 11 bonus feats to the rogues 10 dice of sneak attack. Fighter wins, by eight feats.

Broken Zenith wrote:
Is a point of BAB and 4 health worth 24 skill points?:

Disingeuous question. A more fair question would be: Are 5BAB and 20 HP worth 120 skill points? And you are forgetting to add a couple of things to either side, the rogues better skill list on one side, and the extra iterative attack gained by BAB and the fighter being able to get several good feats earlier than the rogue, those with BAB prerequisites. The answer? The BAB and its attendand extra attack are worth more than the 120 skill points. Take all of the skills usable in combat, and none of them is worth 5 BAB, much less an extra attack. The extra HP and and the early feats are just icing on the cake.

Broken Zenith wrote:
Are the Rogue's miscellaneous features equal to the Fighter's miscellaneous features?:

Your tie is broken by the features you forgot to mention: Master Strike (only works once a day against a single target, has acrappy DC and goes against Fort which is th best save of anyone on melee against the rogue) versus Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery (DR 5/- and autto confirm criticals and higher damage multiplier and immune to disarm) The tie breaks heavily on the fighter side.

The fighter not only wins, he trounces the rogue like a noob and then teabags the corpse. All you've managed to prove is that the rogue deserves a tier 5 to be created just for him.


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Cure Light Wounds. With instant and repeatable cure miracles I would become a saint. Get the church to give me a confortable life style and just heal people like six hours a day. Make some trips around the world, meet world leaders, shame them into doing whatever I guess is the right thing to do. Doesn't cure diseases, sadly, but at will 1d8+1 is enough to full heal any injury.


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Here's a couple of ideas for feats:
Something like Bodybound Mind, for Ki and for Grit/Panache. Extra Ki points for the first and increased maximun Grit pool for the other.
A feat that allows you to tie essence to a maneuver or maybe a style, to increase damage rolls of maneuvers in that style. Make some synergy between this project and Path of War.
Daevic Flurry: invest essence to increase damage when two weapon fighting, using Flurry of blows or Whirlwind Attack and a bonus on something else.
Essence of Speed: gain +5 feet of speed per invested point and bonus damage on Spring Attack, Vital Strike and ... is there another move and single attack ability besides Charge?
Imbued Reflexes: Add to the number of AoOs you can make and to your damage or attack with them.


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I was a murderhobo once but then I took an arrow to the knee.


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Snow_Tiger wrote:

Don't think of it like having to make speeches

Instead:
-develop a personality (add something to am barbarian hulk smash)
-take actions based on personality (this doesn't not have to be in combat or making dierolls , but it can be)
-have ur character be better friends w/ on character in the party, but not another maybe if fits personality
-make friends w/ npcs
-maybe barbarian wants to go hunting for deer just because, takes some npcs with him go hunting. Nothing mechanical, maybe u make "friends" with some npcs or something

It's more like investing your character in the story, rather than just rolling dice. Again, get over the "I have to make a speech" conundrum

And this here? Telling someone else how they should roleplay their own characters is just as bad as the guy that tells people to always use the same build because it has the best DPR or that you should change your build so it's more min-maxed.

Thespians can suck the fun out of a game just as much as munchkins.


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Yeah, down with the thespian tyranny!
I think being a thespian is just as bad as being a munchkin.
1 - It's time consuming. A thespian will usually want to do long speeches, talk with every NPC, describe every action. Dude, we only have a day a week, less than six hours to play, I don't want to spend half of it hearing you talk about the shopkeepers grandkids. At least talk with NPCs in a way that will further the plot instead of derailing it. You don't have to describe every swing of your sword and every spell, save it for when you crit or do something really cool. It's not my fault if I zone out when this guy keeps taking ten minutes every turn.
2 - It's egotistical. One thing you will notice in a thespian is that their concept is the only one in the group that matters and everyone else shoul sacrifice theirs to cater to him. They're the guy who thinks playing a suboptimal rogue or monk build helps roleplaying, but doesn't allow the other players to act in character and dump his ass in the nearest town to hire someone actually qualified to be an adventrer, just because they have PC stamped on their forehead. They're the ones that want to play a paladin in a party full of evil characters or an evil necromancer in a good aligned party that already has a paladin, and then blame the rest of the group for acting in character and turning against his caracter. They're the guy who chooses to play a jerk character that steals from the party and antagonizes friendly NPCs and then claims "I'm just playing in character" but doesn't accept that the other characters would not want to hang out with him much less get into danger to save him.


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DrDeth wrote:
Sarcasmancer wrote:

FUN FACT: Derogatory sneering at people who enjoy a combat-oriented game "roll-play" game as opposed to a "deeper", more "mature" "role-play" game dates back to at least 1980, at least according to Wikipedia.

Nothing wrong with a combat oriented “roll-play” game. They are quite fun, even if I prefer more role-playing. What I object to is games where the PC’s run around killing everything they see, including peasants, ect, acting out weird rape fantasies, looting everything and everyone, burning villages and what not. I made it clear the a dungeon crawl game is not what is normally defined as “murderhobo”=""Murderhobo(s)" is used especially to refer to characters (or entire parties) of looser morals who tend to regard massive collateral damage as an inevitable and unremarkable consequence of their actions, or who are quite happy to slaughter otherwise friendly NPCs at slight provocation or the prospect of financial gain". "Hack & Slash" is NOT "murderhobo".

So yeah, killing evil nasty orcs and looting their bodies? Part of the game. Killing innocent peasants and looting their bodies? Childish and immature.

As a self confessed murderhobo, let me tell you, your definition is wrong. Murderhoboing is going around city to city, dungeon to dungeon, murdering monsters and taking loot. Nothing more, nothing less. The barbarian does it to test himself against monster, the paladin because his god tld him to, the wizard in the advance of magic, the rogue n search of riches, the bard to become famous. Sometimes you're in a quest to save the world, sometimes you do it because killing monsters is fun.

What you describe is a roleplayers first attempt at being an evil party, before someone keys them in on the fact that you can do evil masterminds or sympathetic villains.


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Malwing wrote:

I have a question; If the new classes invalidate some classes that are often considered weak or inflexible is that a bad thing?

There are already like five classes/archetypes that invalidate the rogue, two more are just nails on the coffin. And the monk never got validated on the first place, so it can't even be invalidated.


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Arishat wrote:
Matt Thomason wrote:
I often have players wanting to play something that'd traditionally be an NPC role, like the merchant who needs escorting or the aging wizard who shuffles along and is likely to die if someone sneezes on them.
The aging wizard is one thing; that's a perfectly pratical character type that won't be any problem. The merchant who needs escorting; that's very different question, and it's very easy for it to be a problem. When you have a character who isn't an "adventurer" along, but they're travelling because they want/need to do X, what happens when another character wants to do Y? Does the person who isn't an adventurer turn into one long enough for that to be done? Do they go off to do their own thing for a while, which is pretty awkward for a GM to handle? Or is it a matter of other PCs not having any real say in what the group does, because this one PC is only along for a particular sort of event and anything not related to that means they aren't able to participate properly?

In a game like that, in my experience, the players knowing beforehand allows them to reach an agreement. The merchant player optimizes for party face, allowing the rest of the group to more freely optimize for combat. Any attempt of the DM to punish me for my 7 cha and 7 int was directed back to the merchant. "Why you talking to me, man? I be the bodyguard, you be wanting tha talk with de bossman." Also, merchants can be very inspiring "come on guys kill them quick and you get bonus pay" (bard using oratory for his performances), alternatively the merchant may know a thing or three about locks and traps, either because of a shady past, or because he needs to use them on his own shop (rogue built for trapfinding and skill monkeying).

A bulid optimized for skills is still an optimized build.


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Sissyl wrote:
Well, nobody ever put me in a focus group. I guess I am not fundamentalist enough, stupid enough or prudish enough to fit their bill.

FIFY :)

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