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Nar'shinddah Sugimar

VM mercenario's page

1,266 posts (1,273 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Lemmy wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)
I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

If I get this book (and I probably will), you better build one of those! >:)

Screw that! Build one even if I don't get the book. :P

Funny enough I already have one of each in my character fold (and a shaman, bloodrager, brawler and swashbuckler), This sunday when I finally get back to the group, can I use one of them instead of the paladin?

Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)

I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

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K177Y C47 wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
It was an out of combat encounter; a series of opposed stealth, track and perception checks. The outcome was obvious from the start but the slayer just had to go through the motions. The death was off screen and quite.
Quite?..... Sudden?

I think the slayer caught him mid sentence.That's what you get for divulging his secr

Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
You do not preview the slayer... the slayer previews you..
maybe you should stop wearing that female raptor in heat scented cologne?
Oh I'm not afraid of those little scavengers. They just smelled the scent of blood, but when I'm at my full strength...Wait, is one of the raptors disabling my crossbow trap? Clever girl...
Well yoru first mistake was using a crossbow... we all know that Longbows are obviously superior...
I asked if we had budget for a trap that creates simulacra of various literary and mythical figures to summon Odysseus so he can string and fire a longbow, but Chris Self denied that request, so all I've got is a bunch of rope, pulleys, and levers, as well as several 10-ft. poles. Have a good way for me to set all that up to shoot a longbow at whoever opens the office door?

Maybe if you use guns instead?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
They can't force a change in the story.

Sure they can. If the players are supposed to be working with an NPC, and they just up and kill that guy, the story has changed.

wraithstrike wrote:
As an example, if I am a GM plan to have you walk across a mountain ridge and have several encounters possibly meeting NPC X along the way, and I forget to account for teleport, then the caster has changed the story.

You're presupposing the players have decided they want to go to whatever is on the other side of the mountain range. They can always elect to do something else, and thereby change the story. Certainly if they have already decided to go to whatever's on the other side there, magic classes do likely give you more options than martial classes would be.

But I would observe "we walked along the mountain ridge, and fought some monsters, and then we got there" isn't really *the story* so much as "filler." Martials don't get to skip filler in the same way that magic classes do.

wraithstrike wrote:
If the only logical way to make a part of the story difficult is to get NPC Y to help, but he hates the party, and no diplomacy check will work for whatever reason, and he gets charmed or dominated then once again the caster has changed the story.

There is no situation in which the only one to advance the narrative is to cooperate with a specific NPC. If this ever happens, your GM is railroading you and you shouldn't stand for it. If the GM is already railroading you in this manner, I've found that these NPCs tend to be mysteriously resistant to charm/dominate spells.

But you can always find another way than "work with that guy who hates you." Players find solutions by doing illogical things all the time. It's a big ol' world.

wraithstrike wrote:
So no, they don't have the same narrative power.
I never said that they had the same. I said that they had some. People in this thread are acting as though martial classes have no...

See there is the problem: You are confusing what the player can do, the players narrative power, with what the class can do, with the narrative power of the class. The player can decide to be an insufferable git and murderhobo the important NPCs or ignore the quests. But the casting classes have an ability to affect the story that the martial ones just don't have. The sorcerer is better at making the party arrive somewhere, but the fighter is not in any way better at killing a NPC they should work with. In fact if the player wants to kill a NPC the caster is probably better, because the martial can only hit it with weapons or maybe poison him, while the caster can teleport him to a volcano, call lighting on his head, turn him into a statue shatter the statue and use the pieces as a work of modern art, dominate him into picking a fight with a martial, make him drown on land, or a dozen other things. The martial can only kill someone, the caster can do it in ways people won't even know what happened to him for years.

Ssalarn wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I helped Michael a fair bit with the Iro---- Battlelord, and I quite like it. I wasn't a fan of using military nomenclature as that's a bit restrictive in an RPing sense (at least to me), but other than that, it's solid.

The battlefield commander type is one of my favorite archetypes for characters in the game (to the point where I've written two books on the theme so each class gets at least one such archetype). Drejk and Greg might remember that I was the guy who necro'd the Commander thread to see if he had made any other progress on it, and then Greg snatched it up :)

I especially like the Drills concept, that are sort of like rally point.

I'm curious to see if others come up with their own Specialties.

Actually, depending on the classes, it might be fun to get all the designers to pick one class they didn't do, and come up with a new Bloodline/Order type class feature that seems to be popular in all of these classes. I know the Demiurge has the Enlightenments (some of which I had to cut), and the Battlelord has Specialties. And I kinda wish I had the playtest docs for the other classes :)

Oh my goodness, I think having every designer do a specialty or archetype fr one class they didn't work on initially is an awesome idea. It's always neat to see someone take the inspiration they garner from their peers and see where they run with it. The Battlelord was meant to be really easy to graft new specialties and archetypes on to as well; I pretty much designed it with the intent of leaving lots of room open for future expansions. Who knows, if people like it maybe Greg and I will get to talk about doing a "Complete Battlelord" .pdf or something with an additional set of Specialties and archetypes (I've already been toying around with new ideas for Cavalry, Diplomat, and Counter-Insurgent/Spy Specialties).

Book of Collective Influence 2: New archetypes for all classes, new specialties, enlightenments and other options for every class and maybe even more new classes?

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markofbane wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
markofbane wrote:
John Woodford wrote:
Alex Martin wrote:
jemstone wrote:
GregH wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Dazylar wrote:
Dazylar wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Fromper wrote:
strayshift wrote:

"I'll go... uh... check on Mr Scruffy."


Yeah, that struck me as a bluff check, where nobody was paying enough attention to bother making a sense motive roll. Guaranteed he's stalking the vampire.
it struck me as "the best way I can help is by being out of the way"
Possibly. Just reread it & I noticed that he's kind of looking directly at Durkula as he's saying it. I suspect that Fromper & strayshift might be on to something...
Either we're totally right, or Belkar really is just worried about the vampire eating his cat. :P
Or it's both. Also, the nesting quotes are starting to look like either a pit or a pyramid, depending upon how my eyes look at it.
Both pit and pyramid are appropriate for OotS :P
That's a pretty weirdly proportioned pyramid...
I suppose it'll look right when it gets to about 35 'nests'.
That's what you get when you make pyramid out of sticks.
I think its starting to look more like a longhouse.
50 Shades of Nest Gray pattern's forming there.
At what point does the background in the middle swamp the print?
An intriguing question. I suppose we can find out while we are waiting for the next OotS comic.

So, the OotS thread is now the how deep can nested quotes go challenge?

I'm in.

Nest it til' it breaks
Really? REALLY?!
No. Don't do that.
Don't do what, exactly?

Ignore the combobreakers!

131. *To a seer, diviner or oracle* You can see the future and you still came here? You must have a death wish.
131 b. *When the oracle says 'future can be changed' or something like that* Then this is your chance to change the future. Kneel and beg for mercy.

Start with Grollubs suggestion, then use this:

I wish that you will transfom my body to it's dwarven form, exactlry as it was before I was mortally wounded in the day XX of YY month and year ZZZZ, while keeping my mind, memories, knowledge and experience as they are right now, without altering them.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So when I go walking the dog at night in the summer, is the reason I am not killed by the myriad of tiny unseen mosquitos that said pests lack rogue levels, or that they're simply not trying to kill me?

I would say there would be a level of size difference between two creatures that would essentially render the much, much larger one essentially immune to anything the much, much smaller one would be. I don't know if tiny vs. medium is a big enough gulf though.

But as always, if it's more fun one way, do it that way.

Both. Regular mosquitoes don't have levels, and you would need a solid cloud of mosquitoes to even make a swarm. Also, if the mosquitoes were intelligent enough to make sneak attacks, they wouldn't want to kill you, they can harvest way more blood by keeping you alive. They would protect you as long as you allowed them to drink from you.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
So you are saying a mantis shrimp with sneak attack would be worse?

Imagine that on your eye, your genitalia, or dead center on a superficial artery.

Ecaterina Ducaird wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Set wrote:

So, GM's call if the tiny animal can 'reach such a spot.'

True. But as a hypothetical player in this hypothetical game, I'd want a good reason why I couldn't reach "such a spot" given that they're damn near omnipresent in any realistic anatomy.

Rat stealthily walks up to ogre.

Rat climbs up ogre's leg.
Rat stops at top of leg.
Ogre gets bitten in the 'vulnerables' (you know where I mean)
Rat proceeds to vomit violently at the thought of what it just did, but that is only of slight consolation to the ogre who is bleeding out.

What consolation? The rat just covered his wounded vulnerables with stomach acid and half digested food. He'll probably get some new disease in his vulnerables from that. At this point I'm just feeling sorry for the poor ogre :)

Some favorite quotes:

Harry: Because I'm too stubborn to die. And Thomas is too pretty to die. And you aren't going to die, Butters, because tomorrow is Oktoberfest and polka will never die!

Murphy: You're enjoying this. You just love to dance around questions and spring surprises when you know something the rest of us don't.
Harry: It's like heroin for wizards.

Mysterious Stranger/Bard goes really well for a gunslinger card sharp/ conman, like Bret Maverick or Ezra Standish.
For a tracker or expert horse rider Ranger would be cool, though very unoptimized, giving you a Horse Animal Companion to ride on, Track and Favored Terrain. Maybe Hunter if you want more spellcasting, and it still keep the horse. Could make for a nice shaman trained lived with the natives type of cowboy.
Like Lemeres mentioned Inquisitor works very good for grim bounty hunters and stoic sheriffs. Very good for a John Wayne cowboy.

Orthos wrote:
And ** spoiler omitted **

I don't think so.

She may be out of the action, but after the relationship upgrade, I think we'll be seeing a lot more of her.

Misroi wrote:

One of those things is true.

If it wasn't dead when the facility was experimenting on it, the detonation and subsequent burial of said facility more than likely killed it.

If it's not an alien, then what is it? It appears to be humanoid and have blue skin. So far, we haven't introduced any other races existing on MCU Earth yet, so while it could be an Atlantean or an Inhuman, it's more likely an alien. Smart money is on Kree, but hey, Marvel could be throwing a curve ball.

Since we don't know the alien's race, we don't know anything about the differences they have in gender. Maybe they all look alike, but the blue-skinned ones are female and the red-skinned ones are male? Maybe the secondary sexual characteristics are reversed on this species? With only one creature - and one that couldn't speak to us at all at that - we can't make many assumptions about it.

It's a dude.

Mainstream comics, movies and television hold the same principle: The females of a humanoid species have human secondary characteristics. At the very least breasts. It serves both as source of fanservice and because all mainstream companies believe the audience to be stupid. Things like you said would never happen in Marvel.

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So, you make people roll for stats and then want them to suffer for a poor roll? Step down and stop GMing. What kind of person punishes somebody for something that isn't even their fault?
Or maybe, just maybe, don't be a jerk to the poor guys and use point buy.

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The backup weapon of the godwizard is the rest of the party. The godbotherer, the meatshield and the sneaky one. It's what he uses wen he can't be arsed to unleash his full power on the little ants.

Quasar Knight Abstract Thief

Caineach wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Well, Demonreach was built by Merlin... Maybe part of it was bringing Avalon from England.

But I don't think Arthur would believe he deserves being imprisoned and awake there. I would guess Merlin or if a knight, Lancelot, either of which could feel they deserve it for not protecting/bringing ruin to Camelot.
Then again it could be a complete curveball, Butcher is good at those.
I mean all of the fans I know, especially the fic writers, thought that the parasite was Lash reborn somehow. It beign their daughter was really surprising.

Chris Mortika wrote:
I'm not saying that Uriel should have assisted Harry. I'm saying he could have done so, and telling Harry that there was nothing he could do was not true.

With Harry, he had the ability to do it, sure, but the rules did not allow him to do it. He literally couldn't, by Gods own Law, do it. Never mind what Harry could do with his help and the consequences of that. Breaking the Laws not only allows the Enemy to reply in kind, it risks him falling. So when he said he couldn't do anything he wasn't lying.

With Michael
he only could give his power because of a loophole in the system on the same level of "the rules don't say a character with the dead condition can't take actions". He's just lucky the DM was on his side on that one.
Also if you can't trust your own paladin to not fall for a couple of hours why even choose him? Michael was chosen by an omniscient God for being a good man, Uriel can trust him to be a good man, or at the very least trust that God is good at choosing people.

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I think that for the forseeable future I'm incapable of rolling acrobatics without yelling Parkour!

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SiuoL wrote:

See, here is the thing, each class does certain things, it's up to your GM to make sure each classes get their chance to shine.

Wizard sucks early levels if you don't know what spells to pick, or your team is unreliable. However, you get to bend the world while still be what you are. You don't have to chance, the world change for you.

Sorcerer, not too much better than wizard in low levels, but you get to change into things that you like. Also each bloodline gives your different stuff. Elemental immune to critical hit, Draconic a little more AC and blasting power. And they don't get scared by monk as much.

Rogue is not the best at anything except sneak attack. But when your group got imprison in the dungeon with guards, only rogue can get you our. Bard can't kill all those guards in one hit without them alarming others, only the best rogue can.

Ranger sucks when not fighting his favorite enemies in his favorite terrains, but what if they do? Enough said. PS: one of the best tracing class out there.

Paladin only good when fighting evil things. But it got so much auras!!!! Immune to so many things with very good saves and some spells! Hardly anything evil can kill you.

Monk can't hit... What are you hitting? A full plate? Why would you even do that? Monk are one of the fastest, yet potentially the tankiest class there could be, only to be matched by few like Dragon Disciple with both Wings, class feat and bloodline. Have a monk charge 180ft and Quivering Palm you in the face is the scariest thing that could happen to any wizard. Also with those good saves and SR, how many spell can you use on them really?

Fighter sucks. Yea? When your team now trapped in the room in the dungeon with only one door way, no way out. Outside filled with thousands of goblins. How suck can a fighter be when he is the only class that can stand in that door way all day long? It's not very realistic but I guess in fantasy, fighters train so hard they don't feel tried from fighting.

Druid is not good in spell casting like Wizard. Wildshape at will plus level spells already allow you to be able to survive almost anything. Don't spellsling with the wizard, it's not your job. Shambler!

Cleric are only good as a healbot and their healing sucks. Really? Implosion, True Resurrection and Miracle. What can't you do?

Bard sucks at everything other than singing. Well, it's their job. Do a bit of this, do a bit of that. Just enough to survive so they can perform and make everyone better. By everyone, it's not just your team. Raise army, start war! Think bigger! Also counter song! If you GM never give you a chance to use it when you played a bard, you know he isn't very good.

Lastly, barbarian. They do run out of rage, and they can't do much once it's out. Well, at level one, it's the strongest class of all. What do you expect? Beside, they still kick ass when they rage. Can fighter dodge those touch attacks? Don't think so. Can paladins? No. Can any class that that bad ass +8 morale bonus to strength? No!!!

So there you have it, that's what I think about each classes. They are not perfectly balanced but they don't suck, just that it's not your turn to shine, or your GM sucks.

Wow! You got everything so wrong, I'm not sure you even read the Core rulebook.

Ok, Wizard and Sorcerer can suck at early levels if you completely suck at selecting spells, but that is not fault of the class or GM it's yours for being dumb. Sleep and Color Spray and whatever you want for flavor. Done.

Rogue can't kill anything in a sinlge attack after level 3, maybe 4, except some very optimized builds.

You know who can be just as good as the rogue at freeing the group from a jail cell? The Ranger. Forget favored enemy, favored terain: urban makes you better at being stealthy than the rogue could ever hope to be. And even without favored enemy they still have a wolf to do some extra damage, get some feats earlier than the fighter, and has some really nice spells (lead blades, longstrider, etc.)

Hardly anyithng can kill a paladin. Fullstop. Not just evil, neutral, lawful, chaotic and even good would have a hard time killing this guy. Also even when not fighting evil he has divine bnd to make his weapon better than what the fighter could buy, and he has spells. Anyone that thinks a fighter is the best in that door scenrio of yours has never seem a pally with Deadly Juggernaut, Weapon of Awe and Righteous Vigor going.

Wizards are going to fear charging quivering palms as soon as monks learn to fly. Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist are worthless against melee enemies because the save is just too low. Thta SR is actually a bad class feature since it stops the monk from receiving beneficial buffs. The monk also has abilities like slow fall (worse than a first level spell) and Tongue of the Sun and Moon (worse than a second level spell). He does have some good archetypes tough.

Fighters are very good at DPR noone against that. But they're not so good that a paladin, barbarian or ranger, even with all their resources spent, couldn't do the exact same thing. And if there is a single goblin shaman in that endless horde, the fighter would be the worst to have in that place, since he has the worst chance of resisting mindcontrol.

Druids are not as good at spells as a wizard but that is still better than not being a level 9 spellcaster. Also don't forget the animal companion. You know who else can stand in a doorway and kill thousands of goblins? A buffed up tiger.

Bard sucks at everything except singing? In 3.5 maybe, but not in PF anymore. PF bard outrogues the rogue. He is as good at skills and he has spells to back it up. The rogue has a little more damage but not enough to kill enemies before they sound an alarm, unless the enemies are very low level, in which case even the wizard could probably kill then in a single round.

Barbarians only run out of rage in the early levels. At high levels he has more rage rounds than he knows what to do with. And even without rage the barbarian is only a little worse at DPR than the fighter. Not a significant enough difference to really make the fighter shine.

Notice that the prophecy says "his home". Not the mountains, not the kingdom, not the city, not the neighborhood. It could mean any of those things just as easily as it could mean his actual house. Prophecies can be like that. For all the high priest knew, Durkon stepping a foot inside his house might trigger an earthquake or open a portal to hell or something. His options were throw him onto jail, kill him or exile him. And the first two are unpalatable to a Good character. Demolishing his house would only make sure the prophecy meant the entire city and/or kingdom as his "home".

Ross Byers wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I think those values are ones you give it. In gameplay they're mostly the same. You don't get a guy who can freely play with fire with any of those or slowly becomes more [fire]. though sorc ideally does its mostly "look I got a ray!" until 20th level where he... gets immunity to crits? There's something to be said about getting that occasional narrative ability, though execution leaves a lot to be desired.
I do care a lot more if my character is interesting and fun to role play than I do about 'winning' the mechanical portion.

Yes, because being mechanicaly better makes you incapable of making a character interesting and fun to roleplay. You can't just pick an arcanist and use the same fluff you would have for the sorceror.

I mean, I could, but I'm just better like that.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
I believe the super serum gave him the ability to telekinetically control round mettalic objects.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? really? you're joking right?

Hear that woosh sound? That was just a bird. The joke went so far over your head it didn't even make a sound.

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Lathiira wrote:
thejeff wrote:
At one point (back in the 60s?) he controlled it with magnets. Probably in an attempt to handle just such questions. Of course, other than a few demonstration panels, it did exactly the same kinds of things as it did before the magnets and after they gave up on the idea.
At one point Cap was talking to someone who had just seen him do the multiple-hit-ricochet-back trick and Cap explained. "I used to use magnets, but it threw off the balance and I was stuck standing there waiting for it to come back. So I gave up on them and learned to do it the other way." To paraphrase his answer.

I believe the super serum gave him the ability to telekinetically control round mettalic objects. I've noticed how in some comics/cartoons he can do shield stunts with trashcan lids and hubcaps when someone takes his shield away.

Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Well, you can't just arbitrarily raise the power level of rogue talents. That would be undeniable power creep. So Paizo is stuck with the power level they have established for rogue talents, which is roughly equivalent to a feat.

For now (and probably for along time)I only have money for one paizo book, and that book will probably be inner sea combat.

But this are the kind of things that let me down and make me think twice.

Almost every class have recived tons of shameless power creep. Barbarian, paladins, rangers you name it.

APG rage power ROLFstopm core ones so hard hta tis not even fun. Every class recives lots of tricks to replace the roug, but the poor roge can not recive a little of power creep.

Hopefully this is not the situation, and the book have soem rogue option that are good and not ones that just be there waiting because nobody ever take them.

Don't have the book, but so far the three talents spoilered in this thread include: Not doing sneak attack damage when you could effectively making an enemy live longer; Dropping prone between two flanking enemies so they can hit you better; And adding Dex to damage IF you beat a monsters CMD, itself a losing preposition, using a skill you can't even put points into until late game. So far apparently rogue talents have reached a new low.

Wolfsnap wrote:
In that case, sign him up for Fighter college!

Pfft. Fighter College... I'm Barbarian University all the way. Everybody knows barbarians are two times smarter than fighters. 4 skill points a level beiatchs. Can't touch this.

Wolfsnap wrote:
You guys are being decidedly un-awesome and will be black-balled from the fighters guild.

That is not even a punishment. Fighter guilds are all lame-o. Now the barbarian guild, those guys Those guys know how to party. Pure heavy metal.

And barbarians are just better than fighters. At everything.

I would increase their power. High level skills hould be magic like. A character higly focused on a skill should do things that amze even the magic users. Monks should be able to run on the ceiling and on top of water, rangers should be able to track a flying enemy by how the air was displaced in it's wake, rogues should be able to steal the clothes someone is wearing without being noticed. No epic rules, no mythic rules. Those are just things you should be able to do when you have a +40 on your skill.

DragGon7601 wrote:

I liked the fix that glosz came up with over on giant it the playground for the problem of stances not fitting the level they are gained. He made them all available at first level and then scale with level...

Once I get my hands on the finished product I would likely have someone do this to your stances, unless its already done. Having you guys do for me would be a big bonus.

That is way too overcomplicated, on top of a system that is, itself, already complicated. Whenever possible use KISS, Keep It Simple Son.

I vote for gaining 7 stances. Doesn't really increase power, just versatility

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If you've read the Dresden Files series, the Knights of the Cross are perfect representations of paladins. Michael specially is what every roleplayer should aspire when playing a paladin.

Aelryinth wrote:

And hopefully the PC's will agree!


You asked a question I answered. No need to get your fellings all hurt just because you don't know what players would actually want. A difficult fight is better that a dead party. Always.

Aelryinth wrote:

A better example is:

What would your PC's prefer to have sent against them? NPC 1 or NPC 2?

Kindly also note that Crane WIng's other problem, other then its nigh invulnerability, is that it was improbable, and it was boring. PC 2 gets fights over with know, like a caster. He's also squishy, and if the enemy is smart, can be crushed.

PC 1 gets fights over with...after...a...long...boring...amount...of die rolling, which gets the DM frustrated, bores the other people at the table, and starts handwaving the fight once a 'lock' is achieved.


Number one. Obviously. A long and frustanting fight is loads better than a TPK. Always.

thorin001 wrote:

Why are people saying that fighting defensively with Crane Style only gives a -1 to hit? Crane style reduces the penalty from -4 to -2.

Fighting defensively: -4 to hit, +2 to AC

Fighting defensively w/ 3 ranks in acrobatics: -4 to hit, +3 to AC

Fighting defensively w/ Crane Style: -2 to hit, +3 to AC

Fighting defensively w/ Crane Style and 3 ranks in acrobatics: -2 to hit, +4 to AC

Crane Riposte used to diminish the penalty by another one. Not sure what it does now,never downloaded the errata.

Gauss wrote:

Lemmy, perhaps you should re-read the old version of the feat tree. It does in fact raise the bonus you gain from Fighting Defensively by +1 in addition to reducing the attack penalty. Thus, you go from almost never using Fighting Defensively to almost always using it.

The reason you do not see anyone claiming Combat Expertise is OP is because it is a -1:+1 exchange. Fighting Defensively becomes a -1:+4 exchange due to the Crane style tree.

Crane Wing does none of those things. Literary, none.

Crane Style is the feat that gives the bonus and most of the reduction on the penalty, and it wasn't errataed and noone ever complained about it or decided to make a build around it. Combat Expertise was never claimed to be OP because it's usually described as crap. Being loads better than Combat Expertise is not being OP, is being decent and not-crap. And even IF it was too good, it is no excuse for nerfbombing Crane Wing.

In the movies? Spiderman, the X-men and Fantastic Four are not with the Marvel studios, so there is no way for them to cameo on Avengers. Also, until Marvel makes a movie/tv series with a character they don't exist in the movie-verse. Ghost Rider, the Punisher and Daredevil have gone back to Marvel studios but until they get their own new movies they don't exist.

In the comic books they often do interact when there is an alien invasion or something like that. Events that affect all superteams have become nearly annual things and frankly kind of annoying, since people that only read Spiderman or only the Xmen have to buy an extra load of comics to know what is going on. In story the reason why they don't keep bumping into each other all the time is because theyre all dealing with something moe or less at the same time. While Electro robs a bank and Spiderman has to beat him up, Ironman is in China facing an alien dragon, Captain America is fighting a new Hydra secret weapon, Thor and Doctor Strange are stopping two different demonic invasions, the Fantastic Four are shutting down another of Doctor Dooms plans and the Xmen are fighting off the third wave of Sentinel robots of the week. Keep in mind that in the comic verse there is around 5 to 10 supervilains for every hero, not counting common criminals, there is enough work for everybody.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

That's the fault of the job, not the salary.

That's a fault of the class, not the stat generation.

To clarify, it's the same rule set (emplying company, by analogy) that's making these inconsistencies; it's just pretending not to by sliding the blame to a different department. The hiring manager makes a big show about the exactly equal salary offers, but then HR turns around and lays a bunch of perks on one candidate or witholds them from another. But the hiring manager and the HR department are both following the company's orders. It still means that the two candidates are not being treated fairly, despite all the pretty talk about everything being even-steven.

If wizards were somewhat weaker than martials at higher levels, by the way, I'd be OK with them getting a stat-buy system that favors them. But they're not. By a long shot.

Granted, I totally agree that stat inconsistencies are the very least of the problems there, but still, that doesn't mean we should congratulate ourselves on exacerbating them unnecessarily, even if by such a small degree.

Except that in your analogy rolling stats would mean that there's is a chance, small as it may be, that Bob is earning a 100,000 a year while I'm earning 10,000 a year and that chance is based on pure luck. There is no way at all, that that is fair. There is a chance that I'm getting the 100,000 and he is getting 10,000? Sure. There is also a chance that we're both getting 70,000 or 50,000 or 100,000. In any way it's the fault of the job(class) and not of the base salary(point buy). Having a random salary chosen when I enter the job just exarcebates he chance that Bob is going to become even richr than me.

And if we both have the same base salary and Bob gets all the benefits, but Bob spends money like water (is a pooor optiizer) and I'm smart with my savings and investments (better optimizer) I might end up richer than him. But no matter what financial genius I might be if he has those bonus and a base salary two times higher than me there is nothing I can do to bridge the gap.

Or in game terms:

Arachnofiend wrote:
With point buy you always know exactly what you're getting into. You know how much further behind you're going to be next to that caster and you know what you need to do to not get completely overshadowed. There's no compensating for rolling modest/low stats and then having your Wizard roll an effective buy of 30.

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666bender wrote:

last night our barbarian died.

he has saves in the statospher, and DR but the huge gian with improve vital strike made some holes in him.
sadly for the barby, he got hit on a vicious critical - and fell to begetive hit points.
the healer healed but the save was 50% worth amount of heal.
than he droppoed and as the rage ended.... he auto died.
is he normally great? yes. does he have weak spot? ofc, especially when we buff.

Any crit that can do that to a raging barbarian would have done worse to a fighter. Remember that the barbarian has more HP than the fighter, something between 4 (1st level) to at least 120 (at 20 th level). A fighter in the same position would've died before the healer could even launch his spell.

The barbarians weakness is that he lasts a round more than the fighter would before dying. I'm okay with that.

Can I post just the build and you do the judging?
If yes I'll post some builds tomorrow.

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They always said I had an explosive temperament. Toss a bomb
Undead? Well if you can't helium, can't curium, might as well barium
He will try to frighten us, but we must do like noble gases and not react.
If anyone asks "Are you sure" Like a proton, I'm positive.
You think this is hard? To me it's pretty basic.
Acid what you did there.
Don't worry, I can always find a solution.
An alchemist never dies, he justs stops reacting.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Have every skill in the game as a class skill, take 10 on all of them, do every knowledge check untrained, still be a great face.

You got it backwards. Those are all things the bard can do, but the rogue can't.

Nathanael Love wrote:

36d6 damage every round


No rogue can do that. None.

Because no foe is flatfooted every round and you have no sure way to make flanking happen. And sometimes you have to move, or the enemy has fortification, or uncanny dodge.

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Telessar Talimah wrote:

Lazar we did the same BI with 2the rogues at level 15-16. We handed the group of high level demons their heads through teamwork. The main damagers were in order (zen archer, ninja, magus, Scout) the bottom damagers were summoner barbarian and paladin.

The magus was a shadowdancer as was the scout. 2.25 rogues


Paladin. Bottom damage dealer. Against demons.

Flagged for trolling.

ExposedWires wrote:

The whole debate is pretty interesting, but I think the value of rogues (and monks if you'll let me roll them in) is that they have a niche. This niche is not open combat and it's pretty clear that they weren't ever meant for that.

I'm currently playing in an urban gang war campaign. (In Sharn. We're doing an eberron conversion.) We're playing criminals with hearts of gold (Sorta but not really. At least we're better than the other gangs.) who deal in fencing and smuggling and thievery and gambling. We have to deal with the law all the time and subterfuge and misdirection are absolutely key. As such, our party has 2 rogues, a monk, and an alchemist. I'm playing one of the rogues and I'm a sap adept underhanded rumormonger who uses improvised weapons exclusively. The other rogue fights unarmed. This is all critical because it means our party never wears visible armor or carries any weapons. We can get into parties, clubs, police stations and generally never be suspicious. Even when we do get into serious altercations, we can all talk our ways out. The monk even contributes to our ruses with monstrous sense motive rolls to read body language. Together we keep everything close to the chest. If we ever slip up, the alchemist just burns it all to the ground. It's working for us.

We can also outrun or easily hide from things that are serious threats (of which there are many) and I honestly can't see too many other classes working out as well. We're up against huge organizations so individual combats aren't about defeating our enemies so much as surviving and then hiding bodies or making it look like somebody else killed them or even faking our own deaths. Maybe some cheeky spellcasters would fit into our party, but anybody who relied on ranged would be boned in these tight streets and anybody in heavy armor is just bait for the griffin rider guardsmen.

I think in this situation, rogues are perfect. They're gonna suck in open honest combat, but here they are kings.

Already did this a couple of pages ago, but okay.

Classes that can do that kind of campaign beter than the rogue (and monk):
Ranger with urban favored terrain.
Note that I man they can do it better. Not just as well. Straight up, laugh at the poor rogue, better.

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Tels wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
1) Half his feats are COMBAT ONLY feats. I mean, that SCREAMS "OPTIMIZE ME FOR COMBAT!" Additionally, the fighter's biggest advantage is the ability to get certain feats faster than other classes because he can move through the feat chain faster (due to his obnoxious number of feats). The thing is, if the fighter keeps stopping along the way to take Skill Focus (Basketweaving) or whatever (assuming he is not actully taking SF to get Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) to get the mad Str Buff.) then he is actually going to be no better than the ranger when it comes to feats. This will make the fighter player quite sad when his guy is barely better (if not worse) than the Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian AT THE ONE DAMN THING HE IS SUPPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT.

Uh, Fighters aren't meant to beat Barbarians, Paladins, or Rangers when they are benefiting from their spike damage. Fighters are meant to be the martial that is always good in a fight. Put the Paladin up against a non-smite target, and his biggest damage spike will be taken away (though he's still good). Put a Ranger up against a non-favored enemy and he has the same issue as the Paladin. Barbarians eventually do run out of rage, or may be fatigued.

Fighters, conversely, still get their feats and weapon training against any enemy, all day long. The fighter's only limited use ability is his HP and that's what healers are for.

Granted, yes, Barbarians effectively have limitless Rage because most parties stop pushing forward long before the Barbarian runs out (at least at middle levels and later). Paladins are also arguably the best tanks in the game. But none of that means the Fighter isn't a good fighter. He's not supposed to be the best, he's supposed to be consistent.

If a Fighter gets hit with a Ray of Exhaustion, or Waves of Fatigue, or didn't get enough sleep and is fatigued/exhausted; he fights on.
If the Fighter is up against elementals or hordes of evil enemies, each a valid target for smite; he fights on.
If the Fighter is up...

Except being 'consistent' and 'able to go all day long' is worth crap in a team game. After the casters have spent their spells and the barbarian and bard spend their rounds, and the monk spent their ki, and the pally is out of lay on hands/smites, the fighter and the rogue have three options:

1- Keep going alone and die against any level appropriate encounter.
2- Drag the party with them so they can all die while the fighter uses the enemy distraction to kill the enemies and feel good about his bad carrer choice at the cost of everybody else.
3- Rest with the team.
Well there is a fourth... Go alone and face ridiculously weak opponents and be coddled by the DM so the player can feel special.

fictionfan wrote:

Heres a nice rouge biased test. Imagine you want to steal something from a Noble's mannor house a crown or something. The house has dogs guards and possibly traps which class would you want for this mission. You are level 5.

There are that's a non-combat test that does not come up that often if some other class can do it better then a Rogues aren't just sub-pare they flat out suck.

Bard. All of the skills of the rogue plus invisibility, plus detect magic to find any magic traps. Better at disguising himself and conning his way in.

Monk focused in dex and wis. Zen archer especially. Better at detecting traps (high wis) capable o jumping from the ground to the top of the wall and rom there to the second or third floor window.
Ranger. Can tame the dogs, sneak just as well as he rogue (better if he takes urban as his terrain) better at finding traps (higher wis and fav terrain urban)
Wizard that planned for the assault and thus came with the right prepared spells. Fly, detect magic, detect secret doors, invisibility, disguise self, pilfering hand. Also has a lot of skill points.
Alchemist. Not as high on skills but has extracts. Lower Stealth by 3 for not being class, increase by twenty with invisibility. Perception, umd, sleight of hand and disable device skills are the same as the rogue, but he can get extracts to increase perception bt +2 and gain low light vision, negate the dogs scent, gain a +2 competence bonus on Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks, +5 perception.

So, two can do it better (Ranger and Alchemist) and three just as well, and the Alchemist is the only one that can sneak past the dogs instead of having to find another way in.

1. Do you know the name of the new Stallone movie? It's like the Expendables but from the villains point of view.
2. What are these manilla folders on your desk?
3. Why would you play a class named the load?

Dear following poster,
The answers to your next three questions are as follows:

1. I did it 45 minutes ago.
2. Colonel Mustard in the library with the pipe.
3. If you find who knows the answer to that, kill him. Kill him dead.

Techniques :)
Martinez(eagle): Initiative, Perception and Appraise seems really good, but should still compete with Lannish and Aldori for best Technique
Vectorius(bull): Each round ignore a number of squares of difficult terrain equal to the bonus, Handle Animal & Ride allows for five foot steps where others can't and is good for a mobility character.
Joran(wasp): Number of additional Attacks of Opportunity per round, Sleight of Hand & Stealth for possible low dex build or builds that don't want to take Combat reflexes, and the sills make it useful for rogueish builds
Raphael(bear): the bonus times half his level (minimun 1) as temporary HP that is lost first, Survival, Knowledge(nature) based on the idea that HP is an abstract representing your stamina spent defending, blocking and dodging attacks

Debilitating Strikes are harder to do because it has to be an effect that last between three and ten rounds, so it can't be used to daze, confuse, sttager, stun or do a free maneuver.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


I totally wanted to leave this open to unaramed attacks. If you're holding your weapon and have a free hand, you could even delcare the weapon your off-hand and use the class features to punch. Well lets have a talk about weapons. My understanding is that "weapons" includes manufactered weapons and unarmed attacks - the stuff that appears on the weapons list. Legally speaking, does "weapons" include touch attacks and natural attacks?

VM mercenario:
I have no plans to add more styles. I struggled enough with the five I have! They have changed many times in the last two years, but I will spare you the details. As you can see, I mentioned that these are the five most popular styles. I hoped that would allow for more in the future, without me doing the work. :)

very good... As with many things, I will have to take time to consider this, as it would require, I think, alteration of more than one class feature.

Is that an invitation? Cause I think I can think up some three or four more possible styles. Give me a day or two to suss out the appropriate skills and I'll come back with them. Would it be okay to have some overlap on the style skills?

Verynice class, I like it. Do you intend to have more fighting styles? Cause right now the bravo can get all five styles during his carrer. He is not choosing which styles he wants, but in what order he wants to get them. Couple more techniques would open up the possible builds.

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