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Nar'shinddah Sugimar

VM mercenario's page

1,285 posts (1,292 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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So, we can agree that there is a single build with a single archetype, pretty much fixed Rage Power and Feat selections, with minmaxed cha to the toilet, and with only three possible races, that can outshine the BR?

Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?

Undone wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.
I uh... What? Explain this one to me. The pounce totem gives you the same claws... Do you mean they don't scale?

Well yeah, if you can't see how 1d8+1d6(energy) is better than 1d6, than there is no way I can explain it better.

And what happened to

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.

"Modify it just a little" These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean :)

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And the defensive advantages of the build are not to be overstated. If bothhit each other three times for average damage, rounding up, the Bloodrager takes 110 pts of damage (actually 122 due to Witch Hunter, but that's situational) and has 50 HP left (actually 38), while the Barbarian takes 139 after DR and has 55 HP left. Now, that's still slightly in the Bloodrager's favor (unless we count Witch Hunter)...but not a lot, and then there are the vastly better saves.

Don't forget to account for my Spirit Slam, 6 damage not negated by DR or energy resistance, and for the AoO you eat for getting in reach to trade blows with me. I only get the one but I do get it. Also CAGM would increase your normal DPR, but it does squat against, say, reach users that can five foot step before attacking making it so you don't even threaten with you AoOs. Even with CAGM, this Bloodrager would whup your Barbarian in a one on one match.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Barbarian build still outperforms that Bloodrager even if he were to grab, say, Beast Totem and Superstition. The Bloodrager lacks the Rage Powers to grab as many of the good ones as the Barbarian can.

I'm sorry, but who are you outperforming? You got better saves, but only 2/3 of the DPR, (actually a little less since you keep excluding my Spirit Slam) my other defenses are slightly better (20% miss chance and fast healing 3, versus 2 more AC and DR6/-), and I got better utility, (Fly, Glitterdust, Intimidate and Spellcraft versus Acrobatics and Survival) and more money left over after the big six. You would only outperform with CAGM.

Also, sure you can get a couple of casters and a prep round to grab Enlarge Person and Haste, but then I get a couple of casters and a prep round toget Haste, Moment of Greatness, and my own Brow Gasher on me. The BR is straight up better than the Barbarian at getting buffed.

I'll try to make the "All Rage Powers" Bloodrager build again monday see if I can do it a little better.

I was going to make a poorly maximised build trying to get as many rage powes as possible but by Undone suggestion I'm going to just make a DPR build.

20ptb, no traits, 12th level
Any magic equipment that works for one works for the other so we can assume same weapons and armor and ignore other magic items. Deadmanwalking has up to 16000 in items that I don't have.

Half-Orc Abyssal Spelleater Primalist Bloodrager 12
Str24 Dex10 Con15 Int10 Wis10 Cha18
FCB: 6 extra rounds of bloodrage, +6 HP

01 Power Attack, Claws
03 Weapon Focus (Greataxe)
04 Demonic Bulk
05 Arcane Strike
06 Improved Bullrush
07 Blooded Arcane Strike
08 Rage Powers: Lesser Spirit Totem, Spirit Totem
09 Raging Vitality, Toughness
11 Reckless Rage
12 Intimidating Prowess, Abissal Bloodrage

HP 112 (10+5.5*11+2*12+6FCB+12Toughness)
Initiative 0
AC 23 Fort+10 Ref+4 Will+4
CMB 19 (21 Bullrush) CMD 29

Str34 Dex8 Con23 Int10 Wis10 Cha18
HP 160 Initiative -1
AC 21 Fort+14 Ref+3 Will+7
CMB 24 (26 Bullrush) CMD 33
Fast Healing 3
Large size, 10ft Natural Reach
20% miss chance against anything not adjacent
He casts Shield as a free action at the beggining of rage

Normal: Greataxe +22/+17/+12 1d12+11 x3
Normal PA: Greataxe +18/+13/+8 1d12+23 x3
Raging: Greataxe +28/+23/+18 3d6+25 x3; Spirit +16 1d4+4
or Claws +23/+23 2d6+15 +1d6 (fire); Spirit +16 1d4+4
Raging PA: Greataxe +23/+18/+13 3d6+40 x3; Spirit +16 1d4+4
or Claws +18/+18 2d6+15 +1d6 (fire); Spirit +16 1d4+4

+2 Furious Greataxe
+3 Chainmail
+2 Ring of Protection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Belt of Strenght
+4 Headband of Charisma
+32830 gp in other stuff

Spells known:
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Line in the Sand, Expeditious Retreat
2nd: Bulls Strenght, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Brow Gasher, Stone Discus, Acid Arrow
3rd: Haste, Keen Edge, Fly, Fireball

Spells per day:
1st: 3
2nd: 3
3rd: 2

Intimidate +28(+33 when raging)
Pereception +15
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

If he thinks there will be a fight in the next two hours he uses Keen Edge to make his Greataxe 19-20/x3
His Intimidate check is awesome. In both senses of the word.
Since Invulnerable Rager ditches Uncanny Dodge, I ditched Uncanny Dodge too. Fast Healing, to me, is better than DR since it works on any type of damage.

Edit: Forgot to put the CMB and CMD.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I'm still convinced that a Primalist Bloodrager is more effective than Barbarians 80% of the time. There will be occasions where the Barbarian has the advantage, but overall, the casting class is at advantage, as always...

Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.

Build it at, say, level 12, to make the advantage go the Bloodrager's way, but not bring up stuff that'll seldom come up.

I'll do it, tomorrow morning, must sleep first.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
To make it even worse, there is literally no downside to the Primalist archetype. You lost absolutely nothing, so the Bloodrager is not even making a sacrifice.
Well, you also gain nothing unless you burn a Bloodline Power. And a lot of those are really good and you'd rather not burn.

And some are. A couple of elemental resistances for two rage powes? Yes, please.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
They gave too many of the Barbarian's toys to the Bloodrager. IMO, there really should be more differences between the two classes.
Maybe, but I feel like the basic concept was "It's a Barbarian with spells!" I'm not sure how you make that more distinct without damaging the core concept, actually.

Take away DR and uncanny dodge. There, the Barbarian is straight up better at tanking.

Forget Primalist, just the bloodrager bloodlines are enough to upset the barbarian. Besides CAGM, Pounce, Superstition and Spell Sunde what can compare to:
Always on moderate fortification, a +3 armor special ability?
Always on Enlarge Person, at fourth level? The barbarian can gain that at 14h level with an archetype and has to pay doble cost in rage rounds while mantaining it.
An extra +6 str for an additional -2 to AC? That is easily the equivalent of three rage powers.
Always on Blur, Haste and Transformation? With the option to change into a dragon or large magical beast? That is worth like five Rage Powers.
Winged Flight with increasing speed and maneuverability? Best barbarian can get is once a rage, with a prerequisite.
+5 luck bonus to AC and all saving throws?
Auto confirm all criticals?
Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.

And yeah, they're 'only' while raging, but a mid-level bloodrager can rage every round of every battle just like a barbarian can.

And let's not forget they also get extra feats. Free Power Attack if you can wait to get it at sixth level, free Improved Manuers, free Iron Will and free Improved Initiative are all on the menu.

And at 11th level he can free action cast a self buff when he begins a rage, altering the duration to as long as raging. Choices include Shield(because the AC penalty from Rage is so unfair), Protection from Alignment, Enlarge Person, Bulls Strenght(who needs belts?) and Mirror Image(who needs armor?).

Ok, putting it all together we get something like this:

Human MoMS Monk2/Brawler 18, 20ptb

str18 dex14 con14 int10 wis10 cha10 OR
str16 dex14 con14 int10 wis14 cha10 If you worry about the Will save

01 (MoMS) Power Attack; bonus: Pummeling Style; Bonus Combat Expertise
03 Weapon Focus (Unarmed); bonus: Dragon Style
04 (MoMS) bonus: Pummeling Charge
05 Combat Reflexes
07 Dodge; bonus: Dragon Ferocity
09 Weapon Specialization (Unarmed)
10 bonus: Critical Focus
11 Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed
13 Iron Will; bonus: Improved Grapple
15 Improved Critical
16 bonus: Improved Dirty Trick
17 Extra Martial Flexibility
19 Extra Martial Flexibility; bonus: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unamed)

What do you guys think?

Lemmy wrote:
To be fair... SR is awful for player characters. It'll hurt you more often than it'll help you.

Until 14th level you just have to do the same as a Superstitious Barbarian and delay to get your buffs before raging. Between 14th and 16th you have more of a problem but you have enough wealth to buy some utility items and had 14 levels to prepare. At 16th level you gain Form of the Dragon, giving you access to fly, swim, burrow, darkvision and resitance to any element you might need.

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Chengar Qordath wrote:
DekoTheBarbarian wrote:

The archtypes I've liked the most so far are the Crossblooded/Untouchable Rager archtypes. Gain two bloodlines with a small penalty to Will saves (which gets canceled out with Greater Rage and Mighty Rage), and lose the very VERY limited spell casting for spell resistance that becomes permanent at level 14?

Please, sir, can I has some more?

Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.

Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.

Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.

Here's a nifty "spells are for the weak" blodrager build: Untouchable Primalist Bloodrager with the Arcane bloodline, trade Arcane Bloodage at fourth for Superstition and Witch Hunter, Trade Caster Scourge at twelve for Spellsunder and Eater of Magic. Use your bonus feat for Disruptive, Improved Initiatie, Iron Will, Spellbreaker and Combat Reflexes, in whichever order you want. Watch as anything with casting cries as your stupid high saves and spell resistance and ability to reroll failed saves make you as close as immune to magic as the game allows, while breaking enemy spells and having extra damage against casters and being always hasted. Might change Eater of Magic for Ghost Rager if you consider the bonus to touch AC is better than rerolling saves or if you can get rerolls from somewhere else.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
EltonJ wrote:

My gosh, the movie was fun. :) The whole movie was pretty much D&D in space. Star Lord is your Bard, Groot is a druid, Rocket Raccoon is a tech genius, Gamora is an assassin, and Drax -- BARBARIAN baby! :)

Star Lord is more like a Rogue/Gunslinger. Highly skilled, max ranks in Bluff, and he can shoot a pistol like nobody's bizniss.
Definitely an Archaeologist Bard + one level of Gunslinger (for Dex-to-damage with guns, since it's a high gun setting). Best of both worlds.

Bard definetly, but I'm not sure about Archaeologist. He did

use a Fascinate Bardic Performance on Ronan.

Also Ronan is an obvious Fighter. He wears full plate, he has a crappy Will save...

Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Power Attack and Dodge should be the first four feats for a Brawler focusng on Martial Flexibility, with one or more picks of Extra Martial Training and Weapon Focus with a favored weapon or two, probably Unarmed Strike, and Critical Focus at 9. Since they gain Improved Unarmed Strike from class this allows them to pick nearly any combat feat chain possible.

Also, Endurance is not a combat feat, so you can't take it with Martial Flexibility. If you want to use combos like that you would have to spend a feat on Endurance. Diehard isn't a combat feat either so you can't grab it when necessary even if you take Endurance.

Artanthos wrote:
graystone wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Scavion has the right of it. Combining items is perfectly in line with the RAW, is not a house rule, and is hardly unbalanced.

Obviating the need for strength at the cost of 2000 gp, without giving up an item slot, is not unbalanced?

The choice between encumbrance or dedicating a slot to overcoming encumbrance is very much a limiting factor that prevents many builds from dumping strength down to 7 (or 5 with racial mods.) Allowing custom magic items to overcome this limit is something every GM should take a long, hard look at before permitting.

So masterwork backpacks and the Muscle of the Society trait throw everything off too?

It's really, really, really not unbalanced. And it's RAW.

Building a custom race and outfitting him with Cybernetics is also RAW. Are you going to allow that in your campaigns?

Are you going to show up to a PFS game with your custom item and try arguing RAW?

Like PFS has any semblance with RAW, RAI or balanced...

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My knee jerk reaction is why would anyone play a barbarian instead of an untouchable primalist bloodrager, except maybe for the Invulnerable Rager archetype. You lose Trap Sense for Spell Resistance, and trade ten rage powers for ten rage powers +the first level bloodline power +five feats. They've Rogued the Barbarian. Seriously.
I think I'm going to write the Primalist Guide to Stealing the Barbarians Best Toys and give it to the first person that makes a guide to the Bloodrager.

Combination Strike: [teamwork feat]

Prerequisites: BAB+6

Benefit: After a sucessful attack against an enemy you can spend a use of this feat as a swift action at the end of your turn to call a combination attack against that enemy. You then can choose to give a +1 circumstance bonus to attack or a +2 circumstance bonus to damage to any allies that have this feat and attack the same enemy before the beginning of your next turn.
If you sucessfully hit an enemy in a Combination Attack started by another character you can spend a use of this feat as a free action at the end of your turn to increase the duration to the beginning of your next turn and increase the circunstance bonus to attack by +1, up to a maximun of +5 or to increase the damage bonus by +2 to a maximun of +10.
You can use this feat a total of 3 time per day.

Special: You can buy this feat multiple times, each time you gain +3 uses of this feat. If you have an Initiator level you gain an exta use of this feat and gain +4 uses instead of +3 for buying it multiple times. If you grant this feat to allies, using the Cavaliers Tactician ability or something similar, you and the allies you grant this feat share the number of uses you have left, if you grant this feat to two allies and all three of you use Combination attck on the same round you spend all the uses of Combination Attack you have.

After watching the new RWBY episode I wanted a feat that allowed a party of martials to do cool combos. So I made this. What do you guys think? Too clunky? Any ways that I can word it better? Too powerful? Should I put more prerequisites? Constructive criticism welcomed.

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Back to GoTG: Did anyone else notice that at one point in the climax it becomes live-action Space Invaders?
Also, best scene in the whole movie:

Dancing baby/sapling Groot.

Lord Mhoram wrote:

For a Vow of Poverty kind of character - where 1 character is gearless but the rest aren't this is something we have done for a while in our game and it seems to work out. Originally tested with the concept of a Monk/Sorcerer, and the special effect of this idea was very much VoP but the character developed spontaneous magical abilities - not really much different internally than class abilities. The character was modeled some on Donaldsonian Bloodgaurd - believing any weapon outside themselves to be a weakness.

The character would get his "cut" of the gear and coin, and donate to worthy causes. Then would meditate.

The player would then "buy" a magic item of approriate cost - always a permanent item - and in our case paid about 10%-20% extra (to mechanically offset the fact that these "items" could not be stolen) then the character would gain a new "class ability" of that magic item.

The character in question is an Empyreal sorcerer, and when she had 2000 K donated, she developed the "Guided" property on her unarmed attacks (hello SAD: AC hit damage spells all of Wisdom - really cheesy).

Later on she had donated enough to "buy" a +2 Wisdom item, and then gained that.

And to be honest, it is a kind of Hack as you describe, but internally it feels very natural to the character and not like "invisible magic items"

Pretty much the same philosophy/mechanic as the original VoP, but it gives the player/GM flexibility to give the character something that fits the story, and what the players want, rather than a predetermined list of special abilities.

Don't really have an approach for a game that is low magic/low magic items. The solution we came up with was very "high magic"

I like this idea. Let me combine this with some things from my random ideas folder:

As PCs gain levels the amount of Wealth they have and can use increases as well. Wealth is divided in Treasure and Opportunity. Treasure is represented by gold pieces, jewels, magic itens, and other things tat can be bought, sold or used as currency. Opportunity is a more abstract concept representing effort put into training, favor of the gods, luck and even the discovery of inherent abilities.
PCs should be awarded Treasure when defeating opponents like bandits, vampires or dragons, those that would have money or magic items with them. Conversely they should be awarded Opportunity when fighting enemies that wouldn't have money with them, such as dire animals or ghosts. A DM can also alter an encounter to mix Opportunity and Treasure depending on what he and his group prefer.
Treasure can be used to buy and craft items be they mundane alchemical, or magical, invest in business, buy land pay for servants, accomodations and other services.
Opportunity can be used to find specific magical itens, gain inherent abilities through study, training, favor of the gods, sheer badassery, becoming a demigod, unlocking his X gene draconic, angelic, fae, whatever heritage, or any other idea the player can come up with. To use opportunity to find a magic item you pay an amount of opportunity costs equal to the price of the item in question and you find the item in the next place the DM thinks would be appropriate, like a dragons hoard, an abandoned crypt or in the hands of an enemy.
To use Opportunity to gain an inherent ability you spend the cost of the approppriate magic item +20%. These abilities are generally supernatural abilities though they can cause Attacks of Opportunity if using the item they are based on would cause an AoO. You cannot buy an inheret ability based on a consumable item like a potion or a feather token. Some inherent abilities can become Extraordinary abilities if the PC has the Extraordinary Physique or Trained by a Master feats.
One Gold Piece is equivalent to one Opportunity Cost. A PC can exchange them at that rate by doing certain actions. To convert Gold to Opportunity the PC can donate money to charity, pay taxes or membership fees to his organization, spend it in wild parties drink and food, pay for training, pursue pure magic or scientific research or any other action approved by the DM. He can exchange opportunity for gold by stealing from targets, fighting in arenas, performing for crowds, crafting and selling your products, teaching, reasearching, or otherwise working or any other action approved by the DM. No matter the action the PC can only exchange up to a certain amount per day depending on his level, according to the following table:
Table is WIP

New Feats:
Extraordinary Physique
Prerequisites: BAB +11, At least +2 enhancement bonus to one attribute bought as an inherent ability.
Benefit: Any enhancement ability to attributes is becomes an extraordinary ability. If you have any of these items as inherent powers they also become extraordinary abilities: Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Deflection, a bunck others I haven't decided yet
Special: This feat functions with all habilities on it's list even if bought after taking the feat.

Trained By a Master: BAB+11, At least +1 armor, shield or weapon enhancement bonus bought as inherent bonus.
Benefit: Any enhancement bonus to weapons shield and armor bought as inherent bonus become Extraordinary abilities. Any armor shield or weapon special qualities bought as inherent abilities also become Extraordinary abilities. If you have any of these items as inherent powers they also become extraordinary abilities: different smaller list from Extraordinary Physique

Skill Change
Profession: A sucessful Profession Check against a DC of 20 doubles what the PC can conert per day from gold to opportunity and from opportunity to gold.
Craft, Knowledge, Perform: A sucessful Ski9ll Check against a DC of 30 increase by 50% what the PC can conert per day from gold to opportunity and from opportunity to gold.

[b]New Rogue Talent[b]
Be Prepared:
The rogue is prepared for every contingency and can trust his utility belt to have the solution to most problems. As a full round action the rogue can spend Opportunity Cost up to what he could convert in a single day according to the table XA, and retrieve from his pack a single item he did not have before. This item can be assumed to have been bought at an earlier time with this exact type of situation in mind.

Whew. I just hammered this out in one sitting. What do you guys think? Worth calculating the table and finishing up the feats?

Tels wrote:

Perhaps they should have some sort of vote with a variety of different options to find the option people 'most' like?

For example:

A) A feat that is a straight upgrade to Weapon Finesse like Mythic Weapon Finesse is.

B) A feat that operates much like Dervish Dance in that it's limited to a single weapon.

C) A feat that is limited only by a previous feat in the chain, like allowing any finesseable weapon with which you have Weapon Focus to gain Dex to Damage.

D) A 'Piercing Grace' to match Slashing Grace and a 'Light Weapon Grace' for the Light weapons.

E) No Dex to Damage option at all.

Etcetera and so on.

Man, if only they had a period of time before releasing a hardcover book of rules where they could showcase some of the more problematic or anticipated rules and then have the player base run all the mathemathical testing and rule stressing and even some wordproofing for free, pointing out defects before they hit print. Some sort of playtest where they could listen to the players feedback... Like Dreamscarred Press does! Would be much better than just showing a samll part of the book and then just ignoring any feedback they disagree with. Imagine, if the Swashbuckler had been properly playtested they could have something different than the hot mess which is Charmed Life.

Odraude wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

On the idea of a Mystic Theurge base class:

Please no? We are clear about how that is akin to asking for a class that has access to two spell lists, right? Well, technically the Theurge could be Arcane+Druid or Arcane+Cleric, so that's potentially 3 spell lists, but that's beside the point. I understand that it could theoretically just be a 2/3s caster, but those have a spotty history of actually being balanced (lookin' at you summoner).

I really just have no desire for that class to exist.

Rogue Genius Games was able to pull it off without it being unbalanced.

And Kobold Press managed it too.

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Bandw2 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Ok wow... this thing really is convoluted, because I just now realized you can apply any metamagic at all you want that you have, not just the two (or more) you picked for the feat. It literally doesn't care how many you tack on provided you don't go past a spell level you can cast. I...

[Blue Screen]

Error 404: Balance not found.

you can't blue screen and then get an error message...

The feat broke him so hard, it broke his blue screen. That there is some weapons grade brain breaker.

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At this point martials don't have issues anymore. They have subscriptions and collections.

Kazaan wrote:

1) A Klar deals 1d6 slashing damage. Also, by virtue of the explicit statement that it counts as a light shield with armor spikes, it could reasonable be argued that it can also deal 1d6 piercing damage as armor spikes would.

2) You enhance shields as weapon, shield, or both. Thinking of it as "enhancing the spikes or the bladed" is unnecessarily convoluted; you have separate enhancement statistics for it as a weapon for all offensive purposes and as a shield for all defensive purposes. For instance, your Klar could be enhanced as a +1 Flaming weapon while, simultaneously, enhanced as a +2 Blinding shield. The +1 Flaming applies to shield bashes while the +2 Blinding applies to defensive properties.

Or if you're a ranger, fighter or slayer, you can get the Shield Master feat, and just have a +5 shield , or klar in this case, and have that apply to both your AC and your attack/damage. If you're going for Thunder and Fang it's better with Ranger and Slayer, since you can skip the prereqs for Shield Master since Improved Shield Bash is redundant once you have Thunder and Fang.

Lemmy wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)
I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

If I get this book (and I probably will), you better build one of those! >:)

Screw that! Build one even if I don't get the book. :P

Funny enough I already have one of each in my character fold (and a shaman, bloodrager, brawler and swashbuckler), This sunday when I finally get back to the group, can I use one of them instead of the paladin?

Lemmy wrote:
Hey, VM Merc, here's the perfect spell-less Ranger that you wanted. :)

I know! Between this, the Investigator and the Skald, it's already worth the book.

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K177Y C47 wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
It was an out of combat encounter; a series of opposed stealth, track and perception checks. The outcome was obvious from the start but the slayer just had to go through the motions. The death was off screen and quite.
Quite?..... Sudden?

I think the slayer caught him mid sentence.That's what you get for divulging his secr

Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
You do not preview the slayer... the slayer previews you..
maybe you should stop wearing that female raptor in heat scented cologne?
Oh I'm not afraid of those little scavengers. They just smelled the scent of blood, but when I'm at my full strength...Wait, is one of the raptors disabling my crossbow trap? Clever girl...
Well yoru first mistake was using a crossbow... we all know that Longbows are obviously superior...
I asked if we had budget for a trap that creates simulacra of various literary and mythical figures to summon Odysseus so he can string and fire a longbow, but Chris Self denied that request, so all I've got is a bunch of rope, pulleys, and levers, as well as several 10-ft. poles. Have a good way for me to set all that up to shoot a longbow at whoever opens the office door?

Maybe if you use guns instead?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
They can't force a change in the story.

Sure they can. If the players are supposed to be working with an NPC, and they just up and kill that guy, the story has changed.

wraithstrike wrote:
As an example, if I am a GM plan to have you walk across a mountain ridge and have several encounters possibly meeting NPC X along the way, and I forget to account for teleport, then the caster has changed the story.

You're presupposing the players have decided they want to go to whatever is on the other side of the mountain range. They can always elect to do something else, and thereby change the story. Certainly if they have already decided to go to whatever's on the other side there, magic classes do likely give you more options than martial classes would be.

But I would observe "we walked along the mountain ridge, and fought some monsters, and then we got there" isn't really *the story* so much as "filler." Martials don't get to skip filler in the same way that magic classes do.

wraithstrike wrote:
If the only logical way to make a part of the story difficult is to get NPC Y to help, but he hates the party, and no diplomacy check will work for whatever reason, and he gets charmed or dominated then once again the caster has changed the story.

There is no situation in which the only one to advance the narrative is to cooperate with a specific NPC. If this ever happens, your GM is railroading you and you shouldn't stand for it. If the GM is already railroading you in this manner, I've found that these NPCs tend to be mysteriously resistant to charm/dominate spells.

But you can always find another way than "work with that guy who hates you." Players find solutions by doing illogical things all the time. It's a big ol' world.

wraithstrike wrote:
So no, they don't have the same narrative power.
I never said that they had the same. I said that they had some. People in this thread are acting as though martial classes have no...

See there is the problem: You are confusing what the player can do, the players narrative power, with what the class can do, with the narrative power of the class. The player can decide to be an insufferable git and murderhobo the important NPCs or ignore the quests. But the casting classes have an ability to affect the story that the martial ones just don't have. The sorcerer is better at making the party arrive somewhere, but the fighter is not in any way better at killing a NPC they should work with. In fact if the player wants to kill a NPC the caster is probably better, because the martial can only hit it with weapons or maybe poison him, while the caster can teleport him to a volcano, call lighting on his head, turn him into a statue shatter the statue and use the pieces as a work of modern art, dominate him into picking a fight with a martial, make him drown on land, or a dozen other things. The martial can only kill someone, the caster can do it in ways people won't even know what happened to him for years.

Ssalarn wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I helped Michael a fair bit with the Iro---- Battlelord, and I quite like it. I wasn't a fan of using military nomenclature as that's a bit restrictive in an RPing sense (at least to me), but other than that, it's solid.

The battlefield commander type is one of my favorite archetypes for characters in the game (to the point where I've written two books on the theme so each class gets at least one such archetype). Drejk and Greg might remember that I was the guy who necro'd the Commander thread to see if he had made any other progress on it, and then Greg snatched it up :)

I especially like the Drills concept, that are sort of like rally point.

I'm curious to see if others come up with their own Specialties.

Actually, depending on the classes, it might be fun to get all the designers to pick one class they didn't do, and come up with a new Bloodline/Order type class feature that seems to be popular in all of these classes. I know the Demiurge has the Enlightenments (some of which I had to cut), and the Battlelord has Specialties. And I kinda wish I had the playtest docs for the other classes :)

Oh my goodness, I think having every designer do a specialty or archetype fr one class they didn't work on initially is an awesome idea. It's always neat to see someone take the inspiration they garner from their peers and see where they run with it. The Battlelord was meant to be really easy to graft new specialties and archetypes on to as well; I pretty much designed it with the intent of leaving lots of room open for future expansions. Who knows, if people like it maybe Greg and I will get to talk about doing a "Complete Battlelord" .pdf or something with an additional set of Specialties and archetypes (I've already been toying around with new ideas for Cavalry, Diplomat, and Counter-Insurgent/Spy Specialties).

Book of Collective Influence 2: New archetypes for all classes, new specialties, enlightenments and other options for every class and maybe even more new classes?

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markofbane wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
markofbane wrote:
John Woodford wrote:
Alex Martin wrote:
jemstone wrote:
GregH wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Dazylar wrote:
Dazylar wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Fromper wrote:
strayshift wrote:

"I'll go... uh... check on Mr Scruffy."


Yeah, that struck me as a bluff check, where nobody was paying enough attention to bother making a sense motive roll. Guaranteed he's stalking the vampire.
it struck me as "the best way I can help is by being out of the way"
Possibly. Just reread it & I noticed that he's kind of looking directly at Durkula as he's saying it. I suspect that Fromper & strayshift might be on to something...
Either we're totally right, or Belkar really is just worried about the vampire eating his cat. :P
Or it's both. Also, the nesting quotes are starting to look like either a pit or a pyramid, depending upon how my eyes look at it.
Both pit and pyramid are appropriate for OotS :P
That's a pretty weirdly proportioned pyramid...
I suppose it'll look right when it gets to about 35 'nests'.
That's what you get when you make pyramid out of sticks.
I think its starting to look more like a longhouse.
50 Shades of Nest Gray pattern's forming there.
At what point does the background in the middle swamp the print?
An intriguing question. I suppose we can find out while we are waiting for the next OotS comic.

So, the OotS thread is now the how deep can nested quotes go challenge?

I'm in.

Nest it til' it breaks
Really? REALLY?!
No. Don't do that.
Don't do what, exactly?

Ignore the combobreakers!

131. *To a seer, diviner or oracle* You can see the future and you still came here? You must have a death wish.
131 b. *When the oracle says 'future can be changed' or something like that* Then this is your chance to change the future. Kneel and beg for mercy.

Start with Grollubs suggestion, then use this:

I wish that you will transfom my body to it's dwarven form, exactlry as it was before I was mortally wounded in the day XX of YY month and year ZZZZ, while keeping my mind, memories, knowledge and experience as they are right now, without altering them.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So when I go walking the dog at night in the summer, is the reason I am not killed by the myriad of tiny unseen mosquitos that said pests lack rogue levels, or that they're simply not trying to kill me?

I would say there would be a level of size difference between two creatures that would essentially render the much, much larger one essentially immune to anything the much, much smaller one would be. I don't know if tiny vs. medium is a big enough gulf though.

But as always, if it's more fun one way, do it that way.

Both. Regular mosquitoes don't have levels, and you would need a solid cloud of mosquitoes to even make a swarm. Also, if the mosquitoes were intelligent enough to make sneak attacks, they wouldn't want to kill you, they can harvest way more blood by keeping you alive. They would protect you as long as you allowed them to drink from you.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
So you are saying a mantis shrimp with sneak attack would be worse?

Imagine that on your eye, your genitalia, or dead center on a superficial artery.

Ecaterina Ducaird wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Set wrote:

So, GM's call if the tiny animal can 'reach such a spot.'

True. But as a hypothetical player in this hypothetical game, I'd want a good reason why I couldn't reach "such a spot" given that they're damn near omnipresent in any realistic anatomy.

Rat stealthily walks up to ogre.

Rat climbs up ogre's leg.
Rat stops at top of leg.
Ogre gets bitten in the 'vulnerables' (you know where I mean)
Rat proceeds to vomit violently at the thought of what it just did, but that is only of slight consolation to the ogre who is bleeding out.

What consolation? The rat just covered his wounded vulnerables with stomach acid and half digested food. He'll probably get some new disease in his vulnerables from that. At this point I'm just feeling sorry for the poor ogre :)

Some favorite quotes:

Harry: Because I'm too stubborn to die. And Thomas is too pretty to die. And you aren't going to die, Butters, because tomorrow is Oktoberfest and polka will never die!

Murphy: You're enjoying this. You just love to dance around questions and spring surprises when you know something the rest of us don't.
Harry: It's like heroin for wizards.

Mysterious Stranger/Bard goes really well for a gunslinger card sharp/ conman, like Bret Maverick or Ezra Standish.
For a tracker or expert horse rider Ranger would be cool, though very unoptimized, giving you a Horse Animal Companion to ride on, Track and Favored Terrain. Maybe Hunter if you want more spellcasting, and it still keep the horse. Could make for a nice shaman trained lived with the natives type of cowboy.
Like Lemeres mentioned Inquisitor works very good for grim bounty hunters and stoic sheriffs. Very good for a John Wayne cowboy.

Orthos wrote:
And ** spoiler omitted **

I don't think so.

She may be out of the action, but after the relationship upgrade, I think we'll be seeing a lot more of her.

Misroi wrote:

One of those things is true.

If it wasn't dead when the facility was experimenting on it, the detonation and subsequent burial of said facility more than likely killed it.

If it's not an alien, then what is it? It appears to be humanoid and have blue skin. So far, we haven't introduced any other races existing on MCU Earth yet, so while it could be an Atlantean or an Inhuman, it's more likely an alien. Smart money is on Kree, but hey, Marvel could be throwing a curve ball.

Since we don't know the alien's race, we don't know anything about the differences they have in gender. Maybe they all look alike, but the blue-skinned ones are female and the red-skinned ones are male? Maybe the secondary sexual characteristics are reversed on this species? With only one creature - and one that couldn't speak to us at all at that - we can't make many assumptions about it.

It's a dude.

Mainstream comics, movies and television hold the same principle: The females of a humanoid species have human secondary characteristics. At the very least breasts. It serves both as source of fanservice and because all mainstream companies believe the audience to be stupid. Things like you said would never happen in Marvel.

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So, you make people roll for stats and then want them to suffer for a poor roll? Step down and stop GMing. What kind of person punishes somebody for something that isn't even their fault?
Or maybe, just maybe, don't be a jerk to the poor guys and use point buy.

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The backup weapon of the godwizard is the rest of the party. The godbotherer, the meatshield and the sneaky one. It's what he uses wen he can't be arsed to unleash his full power on the little ants.

Quasar Knight Abstract Thief

Caineach wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Well, Demonreach was built by Merlin... Maybe part of it was bringing Avalon from England.

But I don't think Arthur would believe he deserves being imprisoned and awake there. I would guess Merlin or if a knight, Lancelot, either of which could feel they deserve it for not protecting/bringing ruin to Camelot.
Then again it could be a complete curveball, Butcher is good at those.
I mean all of the fans I know, especially the fic writers, thought that the parasite was Lash reborn somehow. It beign their daughter was really surprising.

Chris Mortika wrote:
I'm not saying that Uriel should have assisted Harry. I'm saying he could have done so, and telling Harry that there was nothing he could do was not true.

With Harry, he had the ability to do it, sure, but the rules did not allow him to do it. He literally couldn't, by Gods own Law, do it. Never mind what Harry could do with his help and the consequences of that. Breaking the Laws not only allows the Enemy to reply in kind, it risks him falling. So when he said he couldn't do anything he wasn't lying.

With Michael
he only could give his power because of a loophole in the system on the same level of "the rules don't say a character with the dead condition can't take actions". He's just lucky the DM was on his side on that one.
Also if you can't trust your own paladin to not fall for a couple of hours why even choose him? Michael was chosen by an omniscient God for being a good man, Uriel can trust him to be a good man, or at the very least trust that God is good at choosing people.

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I think that for the forseeable future I'm incapable of rolling acrobatics without yelling Parkour!

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SiuoL wrote:

See, here is the thing, each class does certain things, it's up to your GM to make sure each classes get their chance to shine.

Wizard sucks early levels if you don't know what spells to pick, or your team is unreliable. However, you get to bend the world while still be what you are. You don't have to chance, the world change for you.

Sorcerer, not too much better than wizard in low levels, but you get to change into things that you like. Also each bloodline gives your different stuff. Elemental immune to critical hit, Draconic a little more AC and blasting power. And they don't get scared by monk as much.

Rogue is not the best at anything except sneak attack. But when your group got imprison in the dungeon with guards, only rogue can get you our. Bard can't kill all those guards in one hit without them alarming others, only the best rogue can.

Ranger sucks when not fighting his favorite enemies in his favorite terrains, but what if they do? Enough said. PS: one of the best tracing class out there.

Paladin only good when fighting evil things. But it got so much auras!!!! Immune to so many things with very good saves and some spells! Hardly anything evil can kill you.

Monk can't hit... What are you hitting? A full plate? Why would you even do that? Monk are one of the fastest, yet potentially the tankiest class there could be, only to be matched by few like Dragon Disciple with both Wings, class feat and bloodline. Have a monk charge 180ft and Quivering Palm you in the face is the scariest thing that could happen to any wizard. Also with those good saves and SR, how many spell can you use on them really?

Fighter sucks. Yea? When your team now trapped in the room in the dungeon with only one door way, no way out. Outside filled with thousands of goblins. How suck can a fighter be when he is the only class that can stand in that door way all day long? It's not very realistic but I guess in fantasy, fighters train so hard they don't feel tried from fighting.

Druid is not good in spell casting like Wizard. Wildshape at will plus level spells already allow you to be able to survive almost anything. Don't spellsling with the wizard, it's not your job. Shambler!

Cleric are only good as a healbot and their healing sucks. Really? Implosion, True Resurrection and Miracle. What can't you do?

Bard sucks at everything other than singing. Well, it's their job. Do a bit of this, do a bit of that. Just enough to survive so they can perform and make everyone better. By everyone, it's not just your team. Raise army, start war! Think bigger! Also counter song! If you GM never give you a chance to use it when you played a bard, you know he isn't very good.

Lastly, barbarian. They do run out of rage, and they can't do much once it's out. Well, at level one, it's the strongest class of all. What do you expect? Beside, they still kick ass when they rage. Can fighter dodge those touch attacks? Don't think so. Can paladins? No. Can any class that that bad ass +8 morale bonus to strength? No!!!

So there you have it, that's what I think about each classes. They are not perfectly balanced but they don't suck, just that it's not your turn to shine, or your GM sucks.

Wow! You got everything so wrong, I'm not sure you even read the Core rulebook.

Ok, Wizard and Sorcerer can suck at early levels if you completely suck at selecting spells, but that is not fault of the class or GM it's yours for being dumb. Sleep and Color Spray and whatever you want for flavor. Done.

Rogue can't kill anything in a sinlge attack after level 3, maybe 4, except some very optimized builds.

You know who can be just as good as the rogue at freeing the group from a jail cell? The Ranger. Forget favored enemy, favored terain: urban makes you better at being stealthy than the rogue could ever hope to be. And even without favored enemy they still have a wolf to do some extra damage, get some feats earlier than the fighter, and has some really nice spells (lead blades, longstrider, etc.)

Hardly anyithng can kill a paladin. Fullstop. Not just evil, neutral, lawful, chaotic and even good would have a hard time killing this guy. Also even when not fighting evil he has divine bnd to make his weapon better than what the fighter could buy, and he has spells. Anyone that thinks a fighter is the best in that door scenrio of yours has never seem a pally with Deadly Juggernaut, Weapon of Awe and Righteous Vigor going.

Wizards are going to fear charging quivering palms as soon as monks learn to fly. Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist are worthless against melee enemies because the save is just too low. Thta SR is actually a bad class feature since it stops the monk from receiving beneficial buffs. The monk also has abilities like slow fall (worse than a first level spell) and Tongue of the Sun and Moon (worse than a second level spell). He does have some good archetypes tough.

Fighters are very good at DPR noone against that. But they're not so good that a paladin, barbarian or ranger, even with all their resources spent, couldn't do the exact same thing. And if there is a single goblin shaman in that endless horde, the fighter would be the worst to have in that place, since he has the worst chance of resisting mindcontrol.

Druids are not as good at spells as a wizard but that is still better than not being a level 9 spellcaster. Also don't forget the animal companion. You know who else can stand in a doorway and kill thousands of goblins? A buffed up tiger.

Bard sucks at everything except singing? In 3.5 maybe, but not in PF anymore. PF bard outrogues the rogue. He is as good at skills and he has spells to back it up. The rogue has a little more damage but not enough to kill enemies before they sound an alarm, unless the enemies are very low level, in which case even the wizard could probably kill then in a single round.

Barbarians only run out of rage in the early levels. At high levels he has more rage rounds than he knows what to do with. And even without rage the barbarian is only a little worse at DPR than the fighter. Not a significant enough difference to really make the fighter shine.

Notice that the prophecy says "his home". Not the mountains, not the kingdom, not the city, not the neighborhood. It could mean any of those things just as easily as it could mean his actual house. Prophecies can be like that. For all the high priest knew, Durkon stepping a foot inside his house might trigger an earthquake or open a portal to hell or something. His options were throw him onto jail, kill him or exile him. And the first two are unpalatable to a Good character. Demolishing his house would only make sure the prophecy meant the entire city and/or kingdom as his "home".

Ross Byers wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I think those values are ones you give it. In gameplay they're mostly the same. You don't get a guy who can freely play with fire with any of those or slowly becomes more [fire]. though sorc ideally does its mostly "look I got a ray!" until 20th level where he... gets immunity to crits? There's something to be said about getting that occasional narrative ability, though execution leaves a lot to be desired.
I do care a lot more if my character is interesting and fun to role play than I do about 'winning' the mechanical portion.

Yes, because being mechanicaly better makes you incapable of making a character interesting and fun to roleplay. You can't just pick an arcanist and use the same fluff you would have for the sorceror.

I mean, I could, but I'm just better like that.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
I believe the super serum gave him the ability to telekinetically control round mettalic objects.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? really? you're joking right?

Hear that woosh sound? That was just a bird. The joke went so far over your head it didn't even make a sound.

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Lathiira wrote:
thejeff wrote:
At one point (back in the 60s?) he controlled it with magnets. Probably in an attempt to handle just such questions. Of course, other than a few demonstration panels, it did exactly the same kinds of things as it did before the magnets and after they gave up on the idea.
At one point Cap was talking to someone who had just seen him do the multiple-hit-ricochet-back trick and Cap explained. "I used to use magnets, but it threw off the balance and I was stuck standing there waiting for it to come back. So I gave up on them and learned to do it the other way." To paraphrase his answer.

I believe the super serum gave him the ability to telekinetically control round mettalic objects. I've noticed how in some comics/cartoons he can do shield stunts with trashcan lids and hubcaps when someone takes his shield away.

Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Well, you can't just arbitrarily raise the power level of rogue talents. That would be undeniable power creep. So Paizo is stuck with the power level they have established for rogue talents, which is roughly equivalent to a feat.

For now (and probably for along time)I only have money for one paizo book, and that book will probably be inner sea combat.

But this are the kind of things that let me down and make me think twice.

Almost every class have recived tons of shameless power creep. Barbarian, paladins, rangers you name it.

APG rage power ROLFstopm core ones so hard hta tis not even fun. Every class recives lots of tricks to replace the roug, but the poor roge can not recive a little of power creep.

Hopefully this is not the situation, and the book have soem rogue option that are good and not ones that just be there waiting because nobody ever take them.

Don't have the book, but so far the three talents spoilered in this thread include: Not doing sneak attack damage when you could effectively making an enemy live longer; Dropping prone between two flanking enemies so they can hit you better; And adding Dex to damage IF you beat a monsters CMD, itself a losing preposition, using a skill you can't even put points into until late game. So far apparently rogue talents have reached a new low.

Wolfsnap wrote:
In that case, sign him up for Fighter college!

Pfft. Fighter College... I'm Barbarian University all the way. Everybody knows barbarians are two times smarter than fighters. 4 skill points a level beiatchs. Can't touch this.

Wolfsnap wrote:
You guys are being decidedly un-awesome and will be black-balled from the fighters guild.

That is not even a punishment. Fighter guilds are all lame-o. Now the barbarian guild, those guys Those guys know how to party. Pure heavy metal.

And barbarians are just better than fighters. At everything.

I would increase their power. High level skills hould be magic like. A character higly focused on a skill should do things that amze even the magic users. Monks should be able to run on the ceiling and on top of water, rangers should be able to track a flying enemy by how the air was displaced in it's wake, rogues should be able to steal the clothes someone is wearing without being noticed. No epic rules, no mythic rules. Those are just things you should be able to do when you have a +40 on your skill.

DragGon7601 wrote:

I liked the fix that glosz came up with over on giant it the playground for the problem of stances not fitting the level they are gained. He made them all available at first level and then scale with level...

Once I get my hands on the finished product I would likely have someone do this to your stances, unless its already done. Having you guys do for me would be a big bonus.

That is way too overcomplicated, on top of a system that is, itself, already complicated. Whenever possible use KISS, Keep It Simple Son.

I vote for gaining 7 stances. Doesn't really increase power, just versatility

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If you've read the Dresden Files series, the Knights of the Cross are perfect representations of paladins. Michael specially is what every roleplayer should aspire when playing a paladin.

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