Yes. Still not caring for Brawler Strike, it maybe could be a skill, but every thing else is just awesomesauce.
That second essay is the best thing I've read in months. When he describes how the ending could have been... Manly tear for what could've been.
More on topic, would people play a sequel based on the reject ending? A whole new group of races fighting off the reapers? Would people play a game without humans?
5th, 10th, 15th and 20th. Or 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. In this I agree with Ciretose, the builds have to be compared at various points instead of only at their peak level.I like the first because it's only four instances and I like multiples of five.
RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anymore, the devs faq'd mounted combat just to stop it, "your mount is charging but you're not" or something. There was a whole broouhaha about it at the time. Point is it doesn't work because the dev team says it doesn't work.Bowbarian isn't much better than any other archer build. Mounted Bowbarian is pretty good because it's mounted archery and the barbarian can archetype to get a mount, but it has the same problems as any other mounted build.
I don't know what is a Come and Get Me Guarded, but Guarded Life is a very overrated power, and actually pretty useless.
The Uber build is Invulnerable Come and Get Me Pouncer with Spellbreaker.
Other good build you didn't mention are the Invulnerable Stalwart with his 23 DR/- and the Urban Come and Get Me Swashbuckler, a better swashbuckler than the playtest class.
Yeah, you get six of those. But you seem to forget they also get 5 feats and 4 spell levels.
10 Rage Powers+Trap Sense<<<6 Bloodline Powers+ 5 Feats+ 23 Spells Known
You know what. You guys make the best barbarian possible. The best Invulnerable Supertitious Pouncer you can make. I'll make the Bloodrager. I'll use the same level and point buy. And let's see how they stack.
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.
Really? Okay, let's try it.Dragon Totem(Barbarian): lvl 6, gives you at most, +3 perception and +3 morale bonus on saving throws against fear, paralysis, and sleep effects.
Draconic Resistance(Bloodrager): lvl 4, gets you resist energy 10 and +4 natural armor.
That's balanced, right? Let's see the next rage power on the tree, then:
Dragon Totem Resilience(Barbarian): lvl 8 This one gives energy resist 22, 32 for invulnerable rager. Nice, maybe but does it compare to:
Breath weapon(Bloodrager): lvl 8, maximun 20d6 damage, usable three time a day.
How about a closer comparison Wings to Wings?
Dragon Totem Wings(Barbarian): lvl 10, standard action to summon wings, average maneuverability, speed is equal base speed, probably 40feet, costs two rounds of rage for round of flying.
Dragon Wings(Bloodrager): lvl 12, average maneuverability, 30 feet speed, upgrades to good maneuverability, 60 feet speed. It's automatic, no action, no cost.
Clearly, the barbarian has the advantage here. Ah but the dragon totem line has two prereqs, lets compare them too:
Animal Fury: Gain a bite attack that deals 1d4 damage plus half strenght, possibly +2 on grapple checks.
Indimitatng Glare: Intimidate an opponent as a move action, he remains shaken for 1d4 rounds extra. This is one of the rage Powers that I really like, makes Intimidate builds so much better.
Let's pit both of them against the first power the Draconic Bloodrager gains:
Claws: 2 claw attacks that deal 1d8 damage +strenght +1d6 energy and are considered magic to bypass DR. Balanced against the bite, you say? Then what can the blood rager get at 4th level to conpensate, I wonder? How about the ability to cast enlarge person once a day, maybe more depending on Charisma? Or maybe Shield, instead? Or maybe either of those, depending on the mood , which is what he can actually do.
But hey, he still has five rage powers left, all the blood rager has left are an extra attack, blindsense, immunity to his energy, paralysis and sleep, three more levels of spells and five bonus feats, say, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Fly) and Toughness. I want to see which five rage powers can make up for all of that.
Elemental Barbarian versus Elemental Blodraer is even worse for the barbarian.
But, okay, maybe these builds are biased since I made them with a similar theme. How about this, anyone can make a barbarian build, and I will make a bloodrager to compare. Only rule is no superstitious pouncers. Pick one or the other, Superstition tree or Beast Totem tree. Feel free to pick archetypes.
Edit: I'm really curious what rage powers are really on the same level as +6 strenght, or always-on haste, or moderate fortification (a +3 armor bonus), or +4 to AC and all save throws, or the ability to ignore energy rsistance and immunity. Spell Sunder, Greater Beast Totem, CaGM, any other?
High five. Finally someone else that can see it.
I've said it in the bloodrager thread and I'll say again. The bloodrager is an archetype. An alternate class only by virtue of needing the space for the new bloodlines. It's the barbarian but it trades rage powers and trap sense with spells, the ability to cast while raging, and the bloddline.
Of course the uber barbarian build is still uber, and yes I've built enough barbarians to know the ins and outs of the class instead of only blatting about the one uberbuild like some kind of sheep.
You can't balance an alternate class based on the best build the class has to offer, same way you can't balance against the worst build. That is class design 101.
Okay people, look at a bloodline, any bloodline, tell me if any of those six powers the bloodline has is not equivalent or in most cases superior to most rage powers.
On top of that you get 5 bonus feats, and while they're not very good feats, getting Improved Initiative, Toughness and Iron Will as bonus is pretty good.
And while the spell list is not very good, it still has a lot of good buffs like Enlarge Person, Blur, Haste and Greater Invisibility and some good blasts like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Shout and Scorching Ray and some nice utility with Mount, Fly and Gltterdust.
You can try to bury the truth but I'll say it again.
The blood rager is not a hybrid class. It's an archetype. An alternate class at best.
It has all of the barbarians abilities, only trading Rage for a Rage wjhere he can cast spells, and trading Trap Sense and the Rage Powers for the Bloodline, the Eschew Materials feat and the Spells.
Man, I never imagined that I would have to defend the barbarian, of all classes.
Sorry dude, but:1) I don't think you can take Eldritch Heritage for two bloodlines. Even if you can...
2) Both Strenght of Abyss and Strenght of the Beast are inherent bonuses, so they don't stack.
There are already like five classes/archetypes that invalidate the rogue, two more are just nails on the coffin. And the monk never got validated on the first place, so it can't even be invalidated.
In a game like that, in my experience, the players knowing beforehand allows them to reach an agreement. The merchant player optimizes for party face, allowing the rest of the group to more freely optimize for combat. Any attempt of the DM to punish me for my 7 cha and 7 int was directed back to the merchant. "Why you talking to me, man? I be the bodyguard, you be wanting tha talk with de bossman." Also, merchants can be very inspiring "come on guys kill them quick and you get bonus pay" (bard using oratory for his performances), alternatively the merchant may know a thing or three about locks and traps, either because of a shady past, or because he needs to use them on his own shop (rogue built for trapfinding and skill monkeying).A bulid optimized for skills is still an optimized build.
Trace Coburn wrote:
Personally, I would’ve been happy to see Elan do a Lurtz ‘grab the sword I’m impaled on’ routine, whip out his rapier, skewer Tarquin right through the heart, then lament as his father died: “You just didn’t get it, did you, Dad? You were the side-quest.” That would’ve been a great way to put a ring around this particular plot.
No, that is exactly what Tarquin wants, his son killing him in a dramatic moment would make him a legend for eternity, or something. The whole reason he wants to kill Roy is so Elan will rise up and become the protagonist and kill him in revenge. Elan knows it, and will do everything possible to avoid being the one that kills Taqrquin.
Some of those builds are almost good. But almost only works when playing horseshoes and lobbing grenades. And with the amount of minmaxing and system mastery some of those need you could make a character of almost any other class that trashes enconters by himself. My opinion remains unchanged. The rogue seriously needs an overhaul.
No! Bad Sissyl. Bad.You liked the ME3 ending. You're not allowed to boo at him. The heretic priest should not hiss at the heretic.
If I remember correctly, those endings didn' even get run past most of the writing team. It was like one writer and one editor did it, and instead of bringing it to the group for disscussion as every other part of the game had, they just sent it to the animation studio. Someone had the sources and everything back in the ME3 thread, if anyone cars to dig it up.
Lord Fyre wrote:
Think about what they're going to do to Thief. What they almost did to X-Com. Remember the ending of a certain series and the massive efect it had on the fanbase. Remember the XBone debacle. The answer is obvious.They are all stupid. Systematically and shamelessly stupid.
Also I've found the feat tree is good as is. If you want a maneuvering palading you take the archetype. These feats aren't something you make a build around, they're more like for when you have a build with an open feat at third level or when you finish your build and don't really have any feats you need. Instead of getting Weapon Focus or Cleave or someting just to fill the blank, getting Martial Training, even if only the first one, adds a whole bunch of options. One of the best things for a feat to IMO.
How about instead of losing the feats, just trading something for an ability like this:
I'm without net for a week and the thread grows like eight pages. That was a lot to read. Relevant points:
1. Iron Pallisade. That is bad. How about: Iron Wall, Iron Fortress, Steel Fortress, Fortress of Steel, Iron Mountain, Adamantine Fortress, Steel Mountain, Adamantine Mountain, Mithral Mountain, Stronghold of Steel. That is just off the top of my head. I really like Stronghold of Steel.
2. When the archetype talk started flying my first thought was that just being a paladin with Scarlet Throne or Golden Lion wouldn't cut it. You can already use the feats to do that. Now the idea of having their class abilities interact with their maneuvers, now that I can get behind, Yuenglings ideas specially. I'll see what I can dream up.
3. Weren't there supposed to be 13 styles? I'm only getting ten. Did I miss something? Again?
4. Didn't get to play much, with most of my group doing college and tests, but I did play a lot with char building and the martial training feat tree. I will expand on that tomorrow when I have more time and less insomnia induced crazyness.
Oh, found it."Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."
Thank you. I was starting to feel like a munchkin.
C'mon man, you already solved the Cornugon Smash issue, so please? Demoralizing people, making them realize they made a mistake just by opposing you, thats the stuff a warlord would live for.
Well critical hits says those two don't multiply, but charge and setting weapons don't say they don't multiply, and the entry for precision damage and magic weapon properties don't say anything about never multiplying... Did, did I just find a loophole in the rules? Sweet Eris, I think I did. Sneak attack should double on a charge and flaming spears are just that much more powerful than flaming swords! I feel dirty now.
Reading on the Warlord Beta, I have a question: You took off Intimidating Gambit because of that feat that would make it a free action, but now that Gambits are their own full round action, is there any reason to not bring it back?
Rising Zenith Strike, Ruby Zenith Strike, Descending Sunset Strike all have the same problem, in that they simply multiply the damage without any of the usual restrictions against multiplying precision damage or the extra damage from magical weapon properties. Is this intentional?
Nope, but if you're a ninja, you can do something 10 times better. You can cast Improved Invisibility as a swift action that lasts for 20 rounds. You can do your 10 attacks with full Sneak Attack on a enemy that loses his dex bonus to ac AND you get a +2 bonus to attack, making it much easier to hit than with flanking, and you can do it without asking for help.
think you will find the hasted, 2 weapon knife master with flank feats will be getting 8 attacks at +10d8. Thats equivocal.
That is just cute, to the ninja doing 10 shuriken attacks with 10d6 sneak attack at a easier AC without the need of a flanking budy.The rogue sucks. Ninja is simply better at almost everything.
And about traps:
It wasn't an interesting subject anyway. Joss Whedon has an opinion, poor troll tries to start a flamewar by badmouthing Whedon, people generally agree that while Star Wars V is a good movie, Whedon is kind of right, it's not a full movie and it lacks an ending. Topic done, the thread moves on.
Edit: Can we now make this thread about threads going into tangents and evolving? Seems like it could be an interesting conversation...
Bill Dunn wrote:
Bull.J K Rowling wrote seven books in ten years. One book a year except for a three year hiatus.
Brandon Sanderson did his initial Mistborn trilogy in three years.
Jim Butcher, one of my favorite authors, writes at least one book a year for Dresden Files and had enough time to write the Codex Alera, also with one book a year, That is two books a year for six years and he aims to do it again when he starts his steampunk series.
Robert A Heinlein, one of the grandfathers of science fiction, wpublished, according to Wikipedia, 20 novels between 1947 and 1973. 20 novels in 26 years. And 5 more between 1980 and 1987.
Terry Pratchet, since he started Discworld in 1983, has written 40 Discworld books, two trilogies, 4 stand alone novels and more background material for Discworld than I care to count. He was diagnozed with Alzheimers in 2007 and he still publishes more material every year than GRRM bothers to write.
I could bring in more examples if you want.
The point is that taking more than two or three years between books in a series is NOT the norm. The only ones I can think that do that and havent faded into obscurity are GRRM and Patrick Rothfuss.
Man, I liked the duality between Golden Lion and Devil Tiger. I think if you change Devil Tigers name you should change Goldn Lions, too. But then the maneuvers that mention roars and prodes don't make much sense...
Doesn't work, Unbreakable Talons needs you to be two weapon fighting. That is a full attack action, or it's own standard if you're using a strike maneuver like Swift Claws. Can't mix it with Cleave, which is it's own standard action. Other boosts could be used with Cleave (I suggest Jade Throne for this), but no strikes. Strikes can't be combined with Cleave, Spring Attack nor Vital Strike.
2. What about Rending Claws and Cleave? If I hit two different people using Cleave, technically that seems sufficient to activate this maneuver. You may wish to specify that you must make (at least) two successful attacks against the same target.
Doesn't work with Cleave either. You need to hit with two different weapons, if you Cleave your second attack uses the same bonus and the same weapon as the first attack. Cleave is really supoptimal when you can use Swift Claw or Thrashing Dragon Twist.
3. Stance of the Ether Gate. Normally you can't take a 5' step and move. I assume this applies to this stance, too? So I can't 5' step into reach of a large creature, use a maneuver and then teleport away, right?
This is a good question. I wuld guess no, you can't five foot step and teleport.
Well, yeah, but that is not what the RAW says. I'm just pointing out the wording is wrong. I've checked every maneuver on all disciplines on both documents, and they all say, 'primary initiator attribute'. It lacks a 'modifier' at the end of that. Gotta point those things on playtest, it's what playtests are for.
After giving it some more time to percolate, here is the second part of my playtest info:
1) Warlords are great face characters. With cha as a secondary attribute and nice class bonuses to two skills he can rival a paladin or sorcerer, behind only the bard. With feinting as one of the possible gambits he also has a good incentive to have high bluff. I didn't even notice during the character building, but I ended with 24 bluff, 29 for feinting with a mask of stony demeanor, 34 for lying. It was when we had to pass some guards that I noticed "I can tell them I'm the moon!"
2) Warleader. I didn't use it. It's a standard action. Could be useful f we had had a turn to buff before a fight, but since we didn't for the whole session I didn't get to use it. I have better things to do with a standard action, mainly hitting people in te face. I could pay a feat to turn it into a move action. Initiators need more things to do with their move actions.
3) Warlord wants Perseverance of Jade. Poor will progression, wis is not much of a priority... using a skill check instead can be a godsend. The fact that it can only be used during fights is a great balancing factor. Many times we had to do saves because of an enviromental thing, and it could've been abused so hard...
4) The save DCs are high. The save DC for my Crushing Blow is 11 + my attribute? Mine was cha 17 for a whooping 28 save DC. Is it supposed to be like this?
5) Since everybody is using Golden Lion and Devil Tiger, here are my first thoughts on Jade Throne: It stops you from going with a shield. It doesn't stop you from using a two handed weapon. From the four warlord disciplines it's the one that uses it's skill the most, so if you're going heavy into it wis goes up in importance. Perfection of Jade lists the conditions it can be used on. Someone learned from the mistakes of their ancestors. Tough the duration is equal to attriute so thats seveneen rounds. Are you sure you don't mean the modifier?
Traded my 10 level paladin for a 10 level warlord for this sunday and probably the next. Focused on Jade Throne and Golden Lion. His damage was good but nothing awesome, the gunslinger and magus on the party managed to keep even and even outdamage me. The really cool stuff were the Golden Lion buffs, Roar of Battle and Strategic Blow are plain awesome, my group loved them. Prediction, here and now, Golden Lion will be the most used discipline fow Warlords.
the David wrote:
Still not that big a deal. A barbarian with Enlarge Person cast on him is doing the same thing, and yours is actually worse for action economy, since you still have to spend a standard action to manifest your power insted of killing an enemy, whereas the regular barbarian can start killing things on round one. Your definition of cheese I call a competent character.Heck the fact that he is multiclass makes him LESS optimized in the long run. Its' a power spike for the first five or six levels, but after that he is getting access to new rage powers or new levels of psionics a level later than he could.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Leave the cheese at the door (4d6+12, what an embarrassment). The hobby is better without it.
Cheese. Ha. Yeah, cause being worse than a regular barbarian with minimal tactics is cheesy. Hilarious. You know what else must be cheese? Paladins. And rangers. And wizards. And basically anything that isn't fighter, monk or rogue.And 4d6+12 really is an embarassment. If I did that character, he would trade Extra Rage for Power Attack and Weapon Focus for Furious Focus. There, 4d6+15 damage.
the David wrote:
So in which category does a half-giant barbarian 1/psychic warrior 1 with expansion fall, considering he can do 4d6+12 damage at level 2?
Same category as a half-giant barbarian 2 who has a caster friend to cast Enlarge Person? Almost the same category as a half-giant psionic warrior 2, that can do 4d6+9 at the same level, but can do an extra time a day?That isn't even a particularly powerfull build, man.
I think we're all getting side tracked here. (And I apologize for my part in that.) This thread isn't about who can design the best barbarian, it is about initiators. (Of course, how they stack up against the current martials is a part of that.)
I was just demonstrating that barbarians can match if not surpass the damage and defenses of the warlord. Where the warlord does shine is that his boosts also help the party. I think all in all it's pretty well balanced. I could prove the same with a paladin or ranger if necessary.If I wanted to show who builds the best barbarians I could have used other builds, with less damage but with more staying power or battlefield control. If I just wanted to show who blows that damage out of the water I would make a fighter, they can only do one thing but they are the best at it.
You don't know how to uild a barbarian. "NOT optimized for damage because I also added some survivability". BS, you did neither.Let me show you how it is done:
HIT DICE. 9d12+27(favored class bonus applied)
Comparing: he still has more HP, his armor is almost as good while in rage, he has DR 1 and he has +4 in saves against almost everything. Barbarian wins defense hands down.
And if you really want, I can up this build to level 12, show what a real damage dealer can do. Hint: he kills the enemy on their own turns.
Me, I have trouble coming up with names, so generally I just grab the name of a couple similar characters from various media and mix them together. It's a roleplaying aid, helps me to keep focused on what kind of character I want it to be, reminds me of what archetype I'm trying to portray.
Wow, christ on a cracker, that is a lot of overreaction.
Except most players dislike killer traps. Or traps in general, really. Oops failed a perception check? Everybody takes damage and or a bad condition. Passed the perception check but failed to disarm the trap? Make a new character. Noone wants the burden of playing a rogue? Too bad, I'm forcing you. Want to play a face rogue or an assassin? Nope, has to be a trap expert.
Oops, sorry, I meant force constructs like Nephelims idea. Here:
How about something that can create force-constructs? Akin to walls and Bigby's spells? There's not much that focuses on Force energy, if memory serves (which it often does not) but some kind of Emitter device might be fun. Tie it to something akin to a Shadow Conjuration or Evocation, but Force-based instead of Shadow based, and you could have a pretty potent universalist.
There is a need for a trick or technique to add a cockpit to the mechanus. Now all that defense is useful AND you're driving a giant robot. Everyone wants to ride a mecha. Fact of life.
I also support the force construct idea. Maybe as an addition or expansion to the convertor from Cutting Edge Machinesmith.
And the Mobius Suit from the same book is awesome, that should be a core greatwork.