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Nar'shinddah Sugimar

VM mercenario's page

1,328 posts (1,335 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Shapeshifting/Polimorphing on the level of the Martian Manhunter.
Turn into other people, stretching, sizechanging, making functional wings, change muscle mass for superstrenght and agility, regenerate. Hell, learn some biology and spin spider silk, shoot eletric blasts like an eel and get all kinds of enhanced senses.


Got it. Thanks.


Received. Thank you very much for your generosity.


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Bought the WIP. My first thoughts:
Battlelord: Really awesome. Could use a couple more specialties that, to me, seem no-brainers: Cavalry (gets a mount) and Marine(for aquatic campaings). Also where are his archetypes?
Metamorph: I actually did a similar homebrew PrC, and I love the idea behind genesis and pheotype. Well done.
Momenta: A half BAB class with only 4th level spells. You beautifull mad genius! Also what does Superior Tactics does? My insomniac brain is not getting it.
Mystic: There is an Avatar archetype. Is all I wanted.
Umbra: The Umbra doesn't have an option for the shadow plane (or the ethereal and astral). Whut? Umbra means shadow. Literally. I expected Shadow plane more than the demiplanes.


born_of_fire wrote:

Ninjas may be rogues but I personally dislike having that much flavour baked into a class. I don't want to play a rogue with a ki pool who can jump really high, use smoke bombs, turn invisible, throws shurikens and other ninja-ey things even though those things do make a ninja more powerful or effective than a rogue.

I suppose if I really wracked my brain, I could find a reason why my ex-soldier who is a knife fighting specialist with Butterfly Sting could possibly have learned some ninja abilities. And I suppose a those abilities could be reflavoured with a more western sensibility if I really wanted to but, honestly, it already rankles me a little that I'm forced to wield kukris to make the build really pay off without having to perform the mental acrobatics required to turn a ninja into a rogue, flavour-wise.

Ninja might be better in a strictly mechanical sense than rogue but that doesn't make it automatically appealing to a person looking to play a rogue.

Use a slayer. You get the BAB of an ex-soldier trained as a knife specialist instead of the BAB of some wannabe thug poser who has a rough idea that the point bit goes in the other guy.


Runemage Illuminated, please, if I'm not too late.


Bundle number two would be cool.

And how do I buy someone a gift on the Paizo store?


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Bandmember: Have ranks in a Performance skill, without being a bard (or skald or similar class), while being in a party with a bard (or skald or similar class)


Bloodrager/Barbarian.
Specifically, Invulnerable Urban Barbarian/Untouchable Spelleater Crossbloded Bloodrager with the abyssal and arcane bloodlines and the superstitious, beast totem and cagm rage powers.
Controled rage stacks with bloodrage. Full DR, Fast Healing, Superstitious saves coupled with high SR, good AC, and D12 HD make you pretty much invincible. Near permanent Haste, Enlarge Person and Transformation, an enormous strenght bonus, pounce and Cagm give you more damage than you really need.


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The Shepard
Talk a campaign villain into suicide.
The Constantine
Sell your soul multiple times to multiple devils/demons. Make them fight each other for it.
The Dresden
Insult an unfriendly or hostile beign of at least double your CR and survive.
The Kirk
Seduce a member of a different species in the same day you discover the existence of that species.
The Kratos
Kill a god.


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You separated the feats by what class feature or ability the affect. You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman and you have my praise.


QuidEst wrote:

Haven't playtested this yet, but man. This has some of the most creative stuff I've seen in a long time!

Thoughts just from reading: I immediately went to the Rabbit Prince, happy to see my favorite card there. It'd be really nice if the Lesser ability provided an alternative perk if you already have Weapon Finesse. If you're going the dexterity route, you kind of need that feat consistently, not "while I haven't asked Prince for too many favors". (Maybe if you have Weapon Finesse, it counts as both strength and dex consistently?)

Lots of really cool stuff, especially on the evil spirits.

Mentioned before, but Frozen In Place is impossible until 15th level (!) without haste, or 8th level with haste. Can they ever break free? I think Wax Dip needs longer duration or something along those lines. I really want to see this functional, because it is a really neat and creative mechanic. (Now… get something with natural attacks in there with it, and you can have some fun earlier on.)

This is a great idea! All spirits that give you feats should have a clause saying if you have this feat the bonus increases or you get an extra thing or something.


Cartomancer
Edgewalker
Brewmaster


kestral287 wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:

A lot of the problems with the class could be solved with the right Wild Talents. Here is my attempt at them:

** spoiler omitted **

Honestly, we need a way to overcome Elemental Resistance without throwing out at least two and likely three-four turns of attacks that do no or next-to-no damage.

Have a low-level Talent mimic the effects of the Winter Witch's Unnatural Cold (targets are treated as having half their normal elemental resistance). A high-level one can imitate Unearthly Cold (half of the Kineticist's elemental damage is not subject to resistance/immunity).

Make 'em Substance Infusions with a reasonable Burn cost (1 for the first; 2-3 for the latter) and you retain the threat of the resistant/immune creatures while giving the Kineticist a way to fight back.

Match it up with some way of beating DR-- ideally an Amulet of Mighty Fists equivalent-- and a better accuracy gain (at least for the non-touch blasts) and the Kineticist comes out looking a lot better. Still has a few minor issues to solve, but that takes care of the worst of them.

But needing to eat two Burn to turn Fire Immunity into "Fire Resistance you can't get over anyway", and then next round one more burn to turn it into "Fire Resistance you're still screwed against", and then next round another burn for "Fire Resistance you can actually deal damage against"... that's not the way to go. As a lover of the elemental attacks to the point that I eschew the others outright, I would not buy any of those. It's not going to matter; I'm still better off running away.

My option allows you to halve the energy resistance of most creatures and completely defeat the energy resistance of most others in a single blat. Most ideas upthread were just turn immunity into "fire resistance you can't get over anyway", mine at least stacks. Hadn't seen the Unearthly Cold idea befor (not a witch fan).

And if you would pass turning resist 20 into 10 for an entire fight for a doing it to single shot for the same cost, then it's your problem. I like having good options instead of traps.


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A lot of the problems with the class could be solved with the right Wild Talents. Here is my attempt at them:

Elemental Resistance:
Elemental Attunement
Element Air, Water, Earth or Fire; Type Su; Level 4; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
You gain resistance 5 against eletricity, acid, fire or cold, matching your element. This increases to resistance 10 at tenth level, resistance 20 at 15th level and immunity to that elementat 20th. If you learn to use another element you can take this talent again to gain the associatd resistance.
Additionaly if you have fire resistance you are immune to enviromental heat effects. If ou have cold resistance you are immune to enviromental cold effects. If you have acid resistance you are immune to nonlethal damage from hustling and forcedmarch and are immune to starvation and thirst as long as you are in solid ground. If you have eletric resistance you are immune to suffocation as long as you're not completely submerged, and can hold your breath for one minute per point of constitution.

Defeating Elemental Resistance:

Nuclear fire
Element Fire; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is fire, expanded element (fire)
You can use fire so hot it disintegrates matter. When you hit with a fire blast you can, as an swift action, accept one point of burn and instead of dealing damage reduce the targets fire resistance by 10, to a minimun of zero. Alternatively you can accept 2 burn to transform fire immunity in fire resistance 40 or to give fire vulnerability to a target that doesn't have fire resitance. This effects last for a number of rounds equal to your con modifier plus the burn points you are suffering. This effects stack.

Absolute Zero
Element Water; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is water, expanded element (water)
You can bring a cold so potent it defies the laws of magic. This functions as Nuclear Fire but with cold blasts and cold resistance.

Aqua Regia
Element Earth; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is earth, expanded element (earth)
You mix a number of acids into a single substance capable of corroding any material. This functions as Nuclear Fire but with acid blasts and acid resistance.

Supercharge
Element Air; Type Su; Level 6; Burn see text
Prerequisites primary element is air, expanded element (air)
You gather millions of volts in a single blast that burns away any insulation. This functions as Nuclear Fire but with eletric blasts and eletric resistance.

Yeah, if you're willing to spend six rounds and take 8 burn you can make a fire elemental be weak against fire. That is not a bug, it's a feature.

Versatility:

Air could have a sound blast and some measure of sound control.

Fire could be used to make fire with less heat and more light or different types of light, or to make flashes to dazzle or blind:
Sunfire
Element Fire; Type Sp; Level 3; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 7
You can conjure a fire that sheds light like a daylight spell. You can accept one burn to affect creatures as if it was daylight, double the radius of illumination or to count as a 6th level spell for cancelling magical darkness.

Earth could have create pit as a sp; the ability to make earthquakes or something like this:
Create Difficult Terrain
Element Earth; Type Su; Level 4; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 5
You can make small spikes on the ground, raise feet level walls or even make quicksand in order to hinder your foes. You create an area of difficult terrain around you. This area is the square you occupy plus all the adjacent squares. At tenth level this area extends by another five feet. You ignore the difficult terrain you make with this ability. If you have extended reach you can create this are at any point in thirty feet instead of centered on you.


Maybe some implements can be on multiple implement groups, but you have to decidewhich group you're using when investing mental focus. Say Mirror is both on the Conjuration and the Divination lists. If you have both schools, when you invest your focus you have to decide if you focus Conjuration on the mirror and Divination on a cristal ball, or invest Divination on the mirror and Conjuration on a compass. Or maybe have two mirrors and infuse each with a different school. Just because.
Rings could be in all schools, then you could have a Mandarin type character with rings in every finger each with their own powers and spells.


In that case having a Strenght spirit bridges the BAB easily and the right spirits can give you the extra to hit to stand at the frontlines. I don't think this class needs to be full BAB. Leave that change either to the Kineticist or the Occultist.
On my medium above I can trance the Owl for another +4 att and damage against a fragile opponent, Big Sky to pretty much ignore DR or some of the other 36 spirits might also have a good option. Combat mediums are pretty good.


Logan Bonner wrote:
Dukai wrote:
I realize that at-will abilities need to be balanced in their power levels, but Stare in its current form feels very lack-luster.
Getting the power level right for this ability is really tough. I agree that it currently looks weak compared to evil eye (even as a swift action instead of a standard). Evil eye is exceptionally strong, though, and stacking penalties can make for really lopsided fights. The playtest version of the stare is pretty conservative, so we're going to watch how it works in play and bump it up in power level if we can.

Just to be sure a mesmerist at 7th level with Bold Stare (Sluggishiness and Disorientation) can as a swift action hit someone with -1 to Will and Reflexes and attack an damage and reduce their movement by 5 feet? No save?

I don't think it's weak. At all.
Maybe allow Will Breaker to be taken a second time at 15th level or higher, and three or four more options for Bold Stare. As is you get five choices (3, 7, 11, 15, 19) from only six options. Four more and one could build two mesmerists with entirely different stares.

Question: If I have Bold Stare (Suscebility and Allure) does the penalty stack on Sense Motive? Penalties normally do, I'm just checking to see if it's intentional or a loophole. That Mesmerist could become the bluffing Bards best bud.


I think my reading comprehension has failed me again, but I have a question:
Say I'm a 13th level medium. I do my seance and choose the Bear (Str N) as my first spirit, the Beating (Str E) as my second and the Teamster (Con N) as my third.
I gain +4 attack and damage, +4 fortitude and +12 HP and (here's the actual question):
a)Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater and Dogpile. Or
b)Enormous and Dogpile.
If b) can I choose an ealier power, i.e. take Enormous and Beater, or Dogpile and Paws?

Also: When doing a Shared Seance with my party do we get the seance bonus of all the three spirits or only of the primary?


You mentioned 3rd party allowed. Have you given any thought to the Taskshaper?
You gain an Su Shapechange in case someone dispel your spells, the ability to change your feats and skill ranks, the ability to add more natural attacks and monster abilities on top of what your current form has, and, best of all, copy class abilities (not sure how it works with rage, bard performances and sneak attack, but smite, challenge and studied combat are very stackable).


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Tell this to your players:
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe he summoned a bunch of clones of himself. You think they may be illusions. Whatever they are they move to fast to notice which ones are translucent and make it harder to attack the real one."
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe she is invisible. She is still invisible, you just have a mental breakdown and deluded yourself in seeing an imaginary person who probably doesn't look like your enemy, is not in the same place or doing the same thing.
The rest of you see him attacking the air. You're not sure if he is attacking the invisible enemy, gone mad or if there are two enemies now."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You know he used a spell to make illusory Mirror Images. Everybody else knows that because they have eyes and saw the mirror images that appeared out of thin air."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You realize he is casting a Invisibility spell about half a second before he turns invisible. Your sudden exclamation of 'He is casting invisibility!' is met with a chorus of 'Thank you, captain Obvious.'"


So what is the schedule for the old products coming back? I found about the Tome of Spell and Sword and the Tome of Thorn and Leaf from Endzeitgeists review site and the Wandering Artist from the 3rd party class list thread, abut those don't appear on the Paizo store.


Dot for ideas.


Oooh, neat. I thought this had been discontinued.
One question, on which my buy of this may be decided:
Can I pilot my Mechanus, turn it into a mecha?


thejeff wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:

Authorities in fantasy universes need adventurers. Because, as a rule, they are straight up better than regular soldiers.

When an orc band attacks a village, if the king doesn't send the army the village dies, because an orc band will destroy a villages police/militia. So if adventurers appear and say "You seem to have a orc/drow/hobgoblin problem. We are adventurers that will take care of it for you for X amount of cash!" the mayor is likely to sing allellujah and pay extra. Better than being killed together with his village.

When a dragon shows on the country side, armies die. Ten thousand arrows from ten thousand soldiers tickle Smaug. The very few people with enough power to take on a dragon usually have better stuff to do, are to afraid of trying to do it alone, or just don't care about your kingdom. So when a roaming bunch of adventurers shows up wanting to fght your dragon or, better yet, already famous for killing dragons, you promise them as much money as they want. If they die you don't lose anything. If they win, you would have to be a special kind of stupid to refuse paying or send assassins against people that can kill dragons.

And if they are calling adventurers for something, like in published material, it is usually something where normal resources have already failed, so they are calling in the specialists. And it doesn't matter what sort of problem you think you have, you pay the specialist rates. If you call the best law firm available for a shut case, you still pay the price for the best law firm. If you hire a five star chef for a night and ask him to make a grilled cheese, you still pay the cost of five star chef. If you hire a team of high risk mercenaries to kill dire rats, you still pay the cost of a team of high risk mercenaries.

And any politician that tries to make disappear the group of well trained, well equiped and well prepared adventurers that just did something his usual teams of assassins and soldiers couldn't, well... He

...

Yeah, yeah, I forgot to put RPG in front of the fantasy in my first line, that invalidates my whole argument.

Sieg hail, mein grammar fuhrer.


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Authorities in fantasy universes need adventurers. Because, as a rule, they are straight up better than regular soldiers.

When an orc band attacks a village, if the king doesn't send the army the village dies, because an orc band will destroy a villages police/militia. So if adventurers appear and say "You seem to have a orc/drow/hobgoblin problem. We are adventurers that will take care of it for you for X amount of cash!" the mayor is likely to sing allellujah and pay extra. Better than being killed together with his village.

When a dragon shows on the country side, armies die. Ten thousand arrows from ten thousand soldiers tickle Smaug. The very few people with enough power to take on a dragon usually have better stuff to do, are to afraid of trying to do it alone, or just don't care about your kingdom. So when a roaming bunch of adventurers shows up wanting to fght your dragon or, better yet, already famous for killing dragons, you promise them as much money as they want. If they die you don't lose anything. If they win, you would have to be a special kind of stupid to refuse paying or send assassins against people that can kill dragons.

And if they are calling adventurers for something, like in published material, it is usually something where normal resources have already failed, so they are calling in the specialists. And it doesn't matter what sort of problem you think you have, you pay the specialist rates. If you call the best law firm available for a shut case, you still pay the price for the best law firm. If you hire a five star chef for a night and ask him to make a grilled cheese, you still pay the cost of five star chef. If you hire a team of high risk mercenaries to kill dire rats, you still pay the cost of a team of high risk mercenaries.

And any politician that tries to make disappear the group of well trained, well equiped and well prepared adventurers that just did something his usual teams of assassins and soldiers couldn't, well... He deserves what happens when said group of well trained, well equiped and well prepared adventurers comes after his head.

Treating adventurers as vigilantes or outlaws only gets you outlaws that can break castle walls, kill armies, control the elements, summon the forces of hell, turn nobles into tadpoles, raise armies of the dead and other really unpleasant things. Better pay them to do 'adventuring' where the good and neutral ones can kill the more evil ones, than turn them all against you. Some long forgotten king must have realized that it's best to divide and conquer, than to unite and lose.


Nearly all videogame magic is point based. I woud say all but there may be some corner cases I don't remember.


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You destroy him. Chunky salsa flies everywhere. For a moment you see a translucent form of him and then it too is hit by the afterimage of your strike. An observing cleric or wizard can tell you that not only you killed him but somehow managed to kill his soul. For a quick moment you see Pharasma standing by your side looking flabbergasted, her mouth hanging open and her arms waving in a 'what the hell' motion. The she turns at you with a scowl and a glare and dissappears. Alternatively you see Zon-Khuton looking impressed. He turns and offers two thumbs up and what passes for a smile and then dissapears. If you are quick enough to raise an empty hand before he dissapears, he gives you a high five and then dissapears.


VampByDay wrote:
But seriously, I draw the line at bluff abuse. I had a PC cast glibness and walk into a demon fortress IN HELL and declare that he was their new boss. -40 on the bluff check and he still made it. Entire encounter was almost ruined (luckily he didn't have the rumormonger ability. He picked it up later). He tried to basically use it to get out of every encounter with a sentient creature, including tricking a dragon out of his hoard.

That is an awesome thing to do. Why would you be against a player being imaginative and resourceful?

With that kind of Bluff check the player should be able to do stuff like Loki, who made a bunch of giants believe a 7 foot tall bearded male barbarian in an ill fitting dress was the goddess of beauty, Anansi, who convinced one of his enemies to stand still while he tied him to a pole because he wanted to measure how big he was, and Hermes, who convinced his brother to trade an awesome magic item for a musical instrument he cobbled together from garbage he found around the beach.


This is a rules question in the rules question forum.
So here is the rules:

The Core Rulebook wrote:
If you use Bluff to fool someone, with a successful check you convince your opponent that what you are saying is true.

If his Bluff beat your sense motive you belive him. If he says it's night you'll believe in that while staring at the sun. If he says he is god you'll bow down and worship, because you believe that. That is RAW.

Anything about he being a known liar or believing that he believes it and may be crazy or not rolling bluff because the player can't make a convincing pitch despite the rules saying his character can, are house rules and have no use in this kind of thread.


Supperman wrote:
Anonymous for Chan.

The Four Chains

The Bastards
Elegant Gentlemen
Comrades in Arms


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Le Petite Mort wrote:
Okay, maybe the example I gave was more distracting than clarifying. To rephrase my question more explicitly, are characters railroaded into believing everything said to them at face value if they fail a given Sense Motive check?

Yes.

Le Petite Mort wrote:

It seems to me that a character who is bad at sense motive would be aware that they are bad at it, much in the same way that someone with low Knowledge (planes) knows that they know little about the workings of the outer planes and their denizens. Do low SM characters automatically believe that what is said to them is true all the time, or do they merely gain no additional information from the GM about the motivations of those they speak with?

The latter interpretation seems more sensible to me.

Gullible people are not aware that they're gullible. Gullible people in fact believe themselves to be really good at detecting lies. It's what makes them gullible.

In your example Thoggs response could be "Ha knew you wren't half devil, that ain't even a thing. Who would have sex with devils anyway?"


I just have to ask: Is there a class, feat line or group of veils based on the Akashic Records? Something similar to the akashic class from Arcana Evolved capable of touching the akashic records to get memories of events and skill boosts and other stuff. Possibly a mix of psionic and veilweaver, maybe as a Cryptic archetype? Having that book name and not using that tasty concept seems like a waste.


I can dig up my scion stuff and other scion resources from the web. If nothing else it has some basic organinzing on the chinese pantheon. But how do we do this, exactly? Just post the info here, send you a PM, how does this work?


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AndIMustMask wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
i say 'human' fist because it's much more cost-effective to chop it off and have a clockwork prosthetic instead (which is real freakin' backhanded to monks there paizo).
This is a thing? Where? How? How much? Stop standing there gawking, you fool! Tell me now! I NEED IT.

clockwork prosthetics, from magical marketplace. they're fairly cheap (6400g a pop i think? so you're basically enchanting a firearm--pardon the pun), grant hilariously good bonuses vs various combat maneuvers, drastically increases your lift and carry weights (respectively), function in non-magic fields, can't be sundered since it's a part of your body (and you can't do that for some reason in pathfinder) and--here's the kicker--can be enchanted as if it were a weapon (for it's usual price and all the way to +10 total bonus) with any affect that would work with an unarmed strike. so it's a cheaper and more powerful AoMF with loads of peripheral benefits attached.

you just have to live the the fact that in paizo's twisted mind, you LITERALLY have to pay an arm and/or a leg to be good at unarmed combat.

i'm honestly tempted to rake up the dough to get all four limbs replaced (only enchanting one main one and a secondary for side benefits) and just run around grumbling "i didn't ask for this!" as i kick people in the face with my energy legs.

warning: don't stick brilliant energy on them or they'll be functionally useless for mundane tasks (your leg would sink through the nonliving floor, hands couldn't grab nonliving stuff, etc.), though it WOULD let you punch people through walls.

You can use command words to turn brilliant energy (or any other weapon ability) on and off. So your hands work normally when you want but when combat begins you can say "This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! Its burning grip tells me to defeat you! SHINING FINGER!"


Guys, he is already paying a feat for it, Weapon Group Adaptation. Making him pay two feats for a bit of cool factor would just make people not want to do it.


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

In matters of taste, there can be no disputes.

The only response the OP requires is "Cool story, bro!" :)

Bah, his story is boring, cliche, and full of plot holes. What isn't purple prose is succint to the point of confusion. His characters are flat and uninteresting, his descriptions are meandering and lifeless and his action scenes are laughable and his attempt at moralization is forced, simplistic and confusing. His story is not cool.


Prety good for third level, Only advice would be trade Improved Sunder for Extra Rage Power Superstition. Sav Improved Sunder for level 9 or 11 just before getting Spell Sunder. I'm assuming you're going for Uberbarian build?


As long as you're not stoping other people at your table from playing a bard you're entitled to your opinion. But that is all it is: your opinion. And always remember that if you voice your opinion, the bard can voice his opnion that you opinion is plain stupid. Freedom of speech goes both ways.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Since it actually wasn't impossible for humans on Earth, VM, I'm not sure how much your otherwise pretty reasonable consideration applies. Of course, people in Pathfinder are designed to basically be able to pull off any style just by virtue of freakin' insane stats. Hell, I bet the "water balloon fighting technique" could be perfectly effective in Pathfinder.

Use it to:

- Extinguish torches!
- Distract casters!
- Freeze the water and break skulls!
- This is stupid.

EDIT: I'm not sure why you're addressing Doomed Hero with this, though—he was actually saying dual shields was a fairly viable real-life style.

I might have come out wrong. I just wanted to point out that he can do it with normal human abilities, imagine what someone who had PC stats could do with it. Not arguing with him,more using him as an example.

Heck, if you can consider a hard rubber ball filled with water as a water ballon, a barbarian with more arms strenght than the best baseball players could probably throw it with enough strenght to cave a persons skull or rib cage. A hard rubber ball, likea dodge ball, filled with water, would probably hit like it was mde of steel and weight way less. Throwing water ballons could be a viable style.


When disscussing what weapon styles are feasible in the context of the game, I think it's good to remember the attributes the characters can have.
Even if it was impossible for a human on Earth, with our basic NPC ability scores, would it really be impossible for a guy with 25 point buy?
A martial artist on Earth could have a 12 str, 15 dex, and 11 con. 15 str, 11 dex, and 12 con for a weightlifter, and 14 str, 13 dex, and 11 con for a more balanced martial artist/soldier.
17str, 15 dex and 13 con for someone who is particularly heroic and amazing like Bruce Lee, Lu bu or Musashi.
A PC can have 18str, 17dex and 14con
Doomed Hero, your opinion, please? Would the style be viable if you were two times quicker, had three times more endurance ad were almost four times stronger?
Same thing for starknives, doubleswords and spiked chains, really. Would they be possible for someone that is, at least, two times stronger, faster and tougher than the best martial artists in recorded history? Someone who could participate in the Olimpics at the weightlifting, gymnastics and long running events and reasonably expect to get gold in everyone of those?


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DragGon7601 wrote:

If I take the "Weapon Group Adaptation" feet I can use Mithral Current moves with my fists... Now I just got to work out how to sheath my fist so I can punch people from 30 ft away.

Maybe if I cover it with something, like my pocket... Or my other hand... What do you guys think? Is there a way of using "Iron wave" (2nd level strike) to full effect with your fists?

Off the top of my head, there was a character in Negima that fought with his hands in his pockets, 'unsheating' his hand, punching, and 'sheating' it again so quick the enemy doesn't even how he got hit. Another idea would be long kimono style sleeves. Or maybe a fighting style where you hold yourself at military rest or at ease stance, with your hands behind your back.


Maybe if you reach Shadow Magic, you can unlock a $20,000 stretch goal reward to remake the Cartomancer.
I can't use Kickstarter, but I look forward to buying this.


So, we can agree that there is a single build with a single archetype, pretty much fixed Rage Power and Feat selections, with minmaxed cha to the toilet, and with only three possible races, that can outshine the BR?

Only one single cookie-cutter build can compete with the BR. And that shows the BR doesn't obsolete the Barbarian how again?

Undone wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.
I uh... What? Explain this one to me. The pounce totem gives you the same claws... Do you mean they don't scale?

Well yeah, if you can't see how 1d8+1d6(energy) is better than 1d6, than there is no way I can explain it better.

And what happened to

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.

"Modify it just a little" These words, I don't think they mean what you think they mean :)

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And the defensive advantages of the build are not to be overstated. If bothhit each other three times for average damage, rounding up, the Bloodrager takes 110 pts of damage (actually 122 due to Witch Hunter, but that's situational) and has 50 HP left (actually 38), while the Barbarian takes 139 after DR and has 55 HP left. Now, that's still slightly in the Bloodrager's favor (unless we count Witch Hunter)...but not a lot, and then there are the vastly better saves.

Don't forget to account for my Spirit Slam, 6 damage not negated by DR or energy resistance, and for the AoO you eat for getting in reach to trade blows with me. I only get the one but I do get it. Also CAGM would increase your normal DPR, but it does squat against, say, reach users that can five foot step before attacking making it so you don't even threaten with you AoOs. Even with CAGM, this Bloodrager would whup your Barbarian in a one on one match.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Barbarian build still outperforms that Bloodrager even if he were to grab, say, Beast Totem and Superstition. The Bloodrager lacks the Rage Powers to grab as many of the good ones as the Barbarian can.

I'm sorry, but who are you outperforming? You got better saves, but only 2/3 of the DPR, (actually a little less since you keep excluding my Spirit Slam) my other defenses are slightly better (20% miss chance and fast healing 3, versus 2 more AC and DR6/-), and I got better utility, (Fly, Glitterdust, Intimidate and Spellcraft versus Acrobatics and Survival) and more money left over after the big six. You would only outperform with CAGM.

Also, sure you can get a couple of casters and a prep round to grab Enlarge Person and Haste, but then I get a couple of casters and a prep round toget Haste, Moment of Greatness, and my own Brow Gasher on me. The BR is straight up better than the Barbarian at getting buffed.

I'll try to make the "All Rage Powers" Bloodrager build again monday see if I can do it a little better.


I was going to make a poorly maximised build trying to get as many rage powes as possible but by Undone suggestion I'm going to just make a DPR build.

20ptb, no traits, 12th level
Any magic equipment that works for one works for the other so we can assume same weapons and armor and ignore other magic items. Deadmanwalking has up to 16000 in items that I don't have.

Spoiler:
Half-Orc Abyssal Spelleater Primalist Bloodrager 12
Str24 Dex10 Con15 Int10 Wis10 Cha18
FCB: 6 extra rounds of bloodrage, +6 HP

01 Power Attack, Claws
02
03 Weapon Focus (Greataxe)
04 Demonic Bulk
05 Arcane Strike
06 Improved Bullrush
07 Blooded Arcane Strike
08 Rage Powers: Lesser Spirit Totem, Spirit Totem
09 Raging Vitality, Toughness
10
11 Reckless Rage
12 Intimidating Prowess, Abissal Bloodrage

Normal:
HP 112 (10+5.5*11+2*12+6FCB+12Toughness)
Initiative 0
AC 23 Fort+10 Ref+4 Will+4
CMB 19 (21 Bullrush) CMD 29

Raging:
Str34 Dex8 Con23 Int10 Wis10 Cha18
HP 160 Initiative -1
AC 21 Fort+14 Ref+3 Will+7
CMB 24 (26 Bullrush) CMD 33
Fast Healing 3
Large size, 10ft Natural Reach
20% miss chance against anything not adjacent
He casts Shield as a free action at the beggining of rage

Normal: Greataxe +22/+17/+12 1d12+11 x3
Normal PA: Greataxe +18/+13/+8 1d12+23 x3
Raging: Greataxe +28/+23/+18 3d6+25 x3; Spirit +16 1d4+4
or Claws +23/+23 2d6+15 +1d6 (fire); Spirit +16 1d4+4
Raging PA: Greataxe +23/+18/+13 3d6+40 x3; Spirit +16 1d4+4
or Claws +18/+18 2d6+15 +1d6 (fire); Spirit +16 1d4+4

Equipment:
+2 Furious Greataxe
+3 Chainmail
+2 Ring of Protection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Belt of Strenght
+4 Headband of Charisma
+32830 gp in other stuff

Spells known:
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Line in the Sand, Expeditious Retreat
2nd: Bulls Strenght, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Brow Gasher, Stone Discus, Acid Arrow
3rd: Haste, Keen Edge, Fly, Fireball

Spells per day:
1st: 3
2nd: 3
3rd: 2

Skills:
Intimidate +28(+33 when raging)
Pereception +15
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

Notes:
If he thinks there will be a fight in the next two hours he uses Keen Edge to make his Greataxe 19-20/x3
His Intimidate check is awesome. In both senses of the word.
Since Invulnerable Rager ditches Uncanny Dodge, I ditched Uncanny Dodge too. Fast Healing, to me, is better than DR since it works on any type of damage.

Edit: Forgot to put the CMB and CMD.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I'm still convinced that a Primalist Bloodrager is more effective than Barbarians 80% of the time. There will be occasions where the Barbarian has the advantage, but overall, the casting class is at advantage, as always...

Eh. Their spell list isn't strong on utility. Maybe post a build? I'll modify it just enough to be an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and we can do a side-by-side comparison and see which does better.

Build it at, say, level 12, to make the advantage go the Bloodrager's way, but not bring up stuff that'll seldom come up.

I'll do it, tomorrow morning, must sleep first.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
To make it even worse, there is literally no downside to the Primalist archetype. You lost absolutely nothing, so the Bloodrager is not even making a sacrifice.
Well, you also gain nothing unless you burn a Bloodline Power. And a lot of those are really good and you'd rather not burn.

And some are. A couple of elemental resistances for two rage powes? Yes, please.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
They gave too many of the Barbarian's toys to the Bloodrager. IMO, there really should be more differences between the two classes.
Maybe, but I feel like the basic concept was "It's a Barbarian with spells!"...so I'm not sure how you make that more distinct without damaging the core concept, actually.

Take away DR and uncanny dodge. There, the Barbarian is straight up better at tanking.


Forget Primalist, just the bloodrager bloodlines are enough to upset the barbarian. Besides CAGM, Pounce, Superstition and Spell Sunde what can compare to:
Always on moderate fortification, a +3 armor special ability?
Always on Enlarge Person, at fourth level? The barbarian can gain that at 14h level with an archetype and has to pay doble cost in rage rounds while mantaining it.
An extra +6 str for an additional -2 to AC? That is easily the equivalent of three rage powers.
Always on Blur, Haste and Transformation? With the option to change into a dragon or large magical beast? That is worth like five Rage Powers.
Winged Flight with increasing speed and maneuverability? Best barbarian can get is once a rage, with a prerequisite.
+5 luck bonus to AC and all saving throws?
Auto confirm all criticals?
Any power that gives claws is straight up better than any Rage Powe that gives natural attacks.

And yeah, they're 'only' while raging, but a mid-level bloodrager can rage every round of every battle just like a barbarian can.

And let's not forget they also get extra feats. Free Power Attack if you can wait to get it at sixth level, free Improved Manuers, free Iron Will and free Improved Initiative are all on the menu.

And at 11th level he can free action cast a self buff when he begins a rage, altering the duration to as long as raging. Choices include Shield(because the AC penalty from Rage is so unfair), Protection from Alignment, Enlarge Person, Bulls Strenght(who needs belts?) and Mirror Image(who needs armor?).


Ok, putting it all together we get something like this:

Human MoMS Monk2/Brawler 18, 20ptb

str18 dex14 con14 int10 wis10 cha10 OR
str16 dex14 con14 int10 wis14 cha10 If you worry about the Will save

01 (MoMS) Power Attack; bonus: Pummeling Style; Bonus Combat Expertise
02
03 Weapon Focus (Unarmed); bonus: Dragon Style
04 (MoMS) bonus: Pummeling Charge
05 Combat Reflexes
06
07 Dodge; bonus: Dragon Ferocity
08
09 Weapon Specialization (Unarmed)
10 bonus: Critical Focus
11 Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed
12
13 Iron Will; bonus: Improved Grapple
14
15 Improved Critical
16 bonus: Improved Dirty Trick
17 Extra Martial Flexibility
18
19 Extra Martial Flexibility; bonus: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unamed)
20

What do you guys think?


Lemmy wrote:
To be fair... SR is awful for player characters. It'll hurt you more often than it'll help you.

Until 14th level you just have to do the same as a Superstitious Barbarian and delay to get your buffs before raging. Between 14th and 16th you have more of a problem but you have enough wealth to buy some utility items and had 14 levels to prepare. At 16th level you gain Form of the Dragon, giving you access to fly, swim, burrow, darkvision and resitance to any element you might need.


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Chengar Qordath wrote:
DekoTheBarbarian wrote:

The archtypes I've liked the most so far are the Crossblooded/Untouchable Rager archtypes. Gain two bloodlines with a small penalty to Will saves (which gets canceled out with Greater Rage and Mighty Rage), and lose the very VERY limited spell casting for spell resistance that becomes permanent at level 14?

Please, sir, can I has some more?

Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.

Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.

Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.

Here's a nifty "spells are for the weak" blodrager build: Untouchable Primalist Bloodrager with the Arcane bloodline, trade Arcane Bloodage at fourth for Superstition and Witch Hunter, Trade Caster Scourge at twelve for Spellsunder and Eater of Magic. Use your bonus feat for Disruptive, Improved Initiatie, Iron Will, Spellbreaker and Combat Reflexes, in whichever order you want. Watch as anything with casting cries as your stupid high saves and spell resistance and ability to reroll failed saves make you as close as immune to magic as the game allows, while breaking enemy spells and having extra damage against casters and being always hasted. Might change Eater of Magic for Ghost Rager if you consider the bonus to touch AC is better than rerolling saves or if you can get rerolls from somewhere else.

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