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^^ what Kadere said.
Maintaining skills at peak condition will depends on having a support structure. Think of Olympic athletes, professional ball players, elite military members. There's coaches, medical types, and a huge amount of infrastructure behind each of those. They train all of the time to stay at the top of their field. Yes, they take breaks. But not long breaks before they are training again.
@Huran, I think it depends on how it's implemented after WoT. If say, support buildings are cheaper and less complicated than training buildings, then smaller or lesser settlements could exist with little training capability. They wouldn't be the key centers people flock to for training, but they might be business centers or just solid everyday resource/farming towns.
They might end up being subjects of more agressive settlements. Such is the way of the world.
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
After the War of Towers ends, Settlements will have to decide which buildings to put up--using limited resources and slots--to support which Feats and Skills, and to what levels. No one Settlement will ever be able to do all things at once.
And one of the things limiting how many buildings the settlement can put up is the settlement's Development Index (DI). How does the settlement get DI? One of the ways is to have companies hold hexes with Points of Interest (POI). If a settlement doesn't have enough companies and moxie to take towers, it's probably really going to be hurting when it comes time to take and hold hexes with POIs.
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I'm saying each hex type should have a "weight-share" of heavy items that are critical to everyone, so that no one terrain-region is at a weight-import disadvantage to the others
Is it just weight-share, or weight-distance-share?
I think trying to explicitly balance hex-by-hex with resource amounts is likely in the too-hard category. Or rather, it's in the there's-an-easier-way category.
Settlements will be good at what they can be good at. By the end of EE, some area like Brighthaven/Keeper's Pass might be starved for coal and survives simply on its control of the gold markets. Having access to yew might be important in the early game, and then settlements discover they really need maple. Or oak.
I think the way the settlements were seeded was not ideal (here are 33 pokes. There's a pig in each poke. Make your decisions.), but in the end, the map *had* to be seeded. We all might end up somewhere other than where we started.
Salvage items may be heavy. Discard them when it's not worth carrying them.
I will point out that salvage items might just appear to be heavy for now. Wait until we seriously start harvesting hexes. Premium ores weigh 0.5 each. Second and third (and fourth?) cuts will weigh more. If a fourth rate ore weighs 1.4 EP, those broken weapons at 1.3 EP look pretty good as ore substitutes.
otoh, Miners and Smelters are Con-based. They'll likely put quite a few points against Encumbrance.
Medium and heavy armor should either have a set (high) weight or a % reduction of your carrying capacity, not both. I am in favor of increasing their weight and removing the % reduction.
In the TT game, medium and heavy armor have a high set weight and a reduction in movement speed. Perhaps GW should go with a straight movement penalty to medium and heavy armors rather than the % reduction to carry cap.
3- What is the latest on Sneak Attack being fully implanted and working properly?
Sneak Attack appears to work for the Opportunist rogue feature feat. With Opportunist slotted, my character does about +24-25 more damage to targets showing opportunity or flat-footed, compared to when Opportunist is not slotted.
Diego Rossi wrote:
I don't think we'll see combat porters. I do think that some character who need Con gains to support their ACE (AFE?) skill set will certainly scoop up levels in those skills.
Miner, smelter, sawyer, and tanner are Constitution based roles. Encumbrance, strongback, pioneer armor feat are all Con based skills. To get to skill 11 or so, those refiners and gatherers will be buying related skills to get their Con up. Will all of those refiners be DTs? No. Many refiners will be DTs at first, but in the future
I think a lot of adventurers will likewise spend some points for encumbrance. Some people will insist on spending 100% of their xp within their class. Others will mix and match, spending only 60-80% of the xp in the 'main' role. Time will show which builds are more competitive overall.
Which begs the question--what good are nodes, then?
Nodes are the lowest tier of gathering, but any node might turn out to be a gusher. So we'll have to whack some nodes. (We've been told that drops will be less than currently - yield is artificially elevated to cover the mats we'd get from gushers).
Once the gusher is discovered something like the following happens:
The finding character has some amount of time to a) get and place a kit, b) call in friends to help gathering, c) call in help to help guarding.
When the kit is placed and as materials are removed, the gusher attracts attention. It becomes a mob magnet. (As other PCs hear of it, it becomes a predator magnet, too, like Bluddwolf hints at.)
The mobs seek to get to and destroy the kit (or maybe the mine-holder; that's not clear). Guards try to keep the kit alive, gatherers try to pull out as many resources as possible before the kit expires or is killed.
I'm looking forward to see how it's actually implemented.
It might even encourage some to adopt light-fighting styles; styles that can't match an armored fighter or cleric in combat, but suit the purpose of running down lightly armored or unarmored harvesters.
Even fighters might train to use more than one type of armor. Heavy for fighting over towers and defending known locations. Medium for clearing escalations and for the commanders during raids and archers in wartime. Light for common soldiers, archers, and auxilaries during raids and running battles.
I'm not rogue inclined, but I am curious as to what they can do.
For example, Sneak Attack. I took my spear armed freeholder down to the skirmisher and rogue trainer, and learned and slotted Opportunist. My spear damage (default exploit) against Lv1 mobs jumped from 182 to 207. I think that means that sneak attack applies +25 damage.
Bags add directly to carry capacity - items don't have to be put in one container or another. I'd bet (but could be wrong) that would be to the total capacity, then reduced for worn armor penalties.
I think the quiver/crystal is slotted into the off-hand slot for the ranged weapon. It think it doesn't add capacity, but gives the bearer a somewhat limited number of shots in a combat. (Like 20-50 shots)
TEO Alexander Damocles wrote:
Fighters can fight, but a rogue knows who is fighting when and why, and can turn a profit at it. Just my two copper.
That may be a subtle form of playing, and I think that's good and all. But what incentives does that subtle player have to devote himself to subterfuge feats? In the end, the rogue fighting style has to work at some level.
Some ways I could see it working out:
- A fighter in melee might be a match for a rogue in 1v1. But 2 Rogue vs. 1 target might be equal or more lethal than 2 fighters vs. 1 target. (Two wolves vs. 1 character, for example, is not fun. More wolves is less fun.) This, I think, should be the target in balancing rogues: they should do better in many on one than other classes.
- Rogue skilled adventurers can mix their dex-based subterfuge fighting style feats with either dex-based crafting feats or dex-based martial feats. They might usually/almost always be lightly armored, so might train ACE armor feats as well as rogue armor feats. (So Jack of all Trades lateral skill selections).
... but given the size of the bags and pouches, a character with Tier 3 bags will still be able to handle
Also, the original Little Black Back Pack blog said there would be 4 bag spaces total. That's been dropped to 2: pouches (belt slot) and backpack (cloak slot)?
Also, I think having a solid Rogue roll is a part of MVP. Otherwise, why have it in the game at all?
You might say the same about freeholders, experts, and aristos. We'll have them in the game, even if they aren't fully functional. I don't think that the 4 adventure roles need to be equally strong as part of MVP.
The MVP game isn't dungeoneering, or even especially close fights. We're doing open field fights. The terrain might give advantage to fighters and wizards over rogues and clerics for some time.
I think the problem with rogues, though, is they are a role looking for a function. Are they a class best suited for dungeoneering? Are they waiting for enough population to make banditry feasible? In WoW and its clones, rogues are melee dps types. When I played AD&D TT, rogues were a second-rate fighter that mostly brought a lot of small but useful skills to the table. I don't know how they play in PF TT. I don't think that GW wants to spell out that there is a trinity, and the rogue is intended to be used a certain way.
The silvered steel example of Thod's is a skill 12 item. There are skill 10-11 items (+3 dwarven steel blanks, ingots, plates and wires) that total about 85 encumbrance per batch.
We'll have skill 10 smelters about 60 days after EE goes live, but I imagine those batches of +3 stuff will remain unusual. As long as we have bags working by then, we might be able to manage. It will help that the smelter is the closest shop to the bank.
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
No. I don't think the issue is a lack of resources (which a reset would fix) I think it's a bug in the whole process of harvesting.
Agreed. It felt to me like there was a gap in the resource table, a NULL resource. Each harvest appears to checks twice for resources. If the RNG hit the gap once, I found only one drop. If the RNG hit the gap twice, I got no drops - no loot window at all.
Yup. This is why we need the ability to access our vault space when crafting.
The entire refining/crafting system was originally explained as relying on a population of unseen worker bees who do the work at the specification of the player character managers. The unseen worker bees can shift the materials around within the settlement; an expert crafter doesn't need to spend xp on a lot of encumbrance, nor does he need a PC porter carrying stuff.
When weight matters, then players will adapt to it quickly.
They'll harvest what they need, and not every type of node they pass. If there is a need for henbane, then hit the forestry nodes. Bypass the sparklies and the rocks, because any harvest from other nodes will reduce how much henbane you carry back home.
They'll dump things that they don't need. At some point a settlement will have 3 suits of dropped armor for every member and will actually be outfitting most in Tier 1+1 or better. There's no need to carry armor and weapons and basic holy symbols home. It's junk; dump it when you find it unless you have a need or spare capacity.
When looting player husks they'll grab the best and leave (or destroy) the rest.
Something I'm noticing in v12.1: odd harvest numbers.
In previous versions, I always harvested some multiple of 2. Mostly 2, but 4, 6, 8, even 10. This seemed to climb with my skill.
In 12.1 I'm sometimes harvesting just 1 item. Sometimes I harvest 0, and the harvesting animation stops and I can't try to harvest that node again. Eventually it disappears. Are these odd numbers some undocumented change, or is something wrong?
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
So if our armor has encumbrance, that number is accounting for both the weight of the materials and the difficulty of keeping that armor from spilling all over as we lug it around. Then what is causing the percentage penalty? We've already paid the price for the weight and unwieldiness of the armor what else is there to incur further penalty?
The percentage penalty may represent the physical debuff from actually wearing the armor. Since the D&D white boxed set, wearing heavier armors has imposed movement penalties in the TT games, in addition to any penalty for just pure loads. I don't know why any would think that the movement restrictions would suddenly go away, even if it's just there for game balance.
I'll be buying bonuses: reflex bonus, even though I'm not a rogue, fortitude bonus, even though I'm not a fighter, willpower bonus, even though I'm not a cleric. I expect that rogues, fighters, and clerics will likewise buy encumbrance bonuses even though they aren't freeholders.
I'm going to avoid buying a lot of ranks in slotted bonus feats. If only because I can only slot a limited number of them. While I may use them in the long run, I'll have to consider whether it's worth the xp cost to buy something I might slot only 5% of the time.
I think you're right. If a player is unsure of what direction she wants her character to go, the smart move is probably to spend a very minimal amount of xp on low level feats and try a concept/role out. This can work, to some degree, because many/most the feats her character uses at skill 8 are the same as at skill 1.
During alpha, I played a good number of characters, limiting them to 1000xp. They wouldn't be PvP superstars, but were very playable.
If your vision for high level characters is that they have to settle for becoming something that is not the vision of the player, that is not a sandbox or satisfactory end-game content IMO
'My uber character should be able to shoot lightning bolts out of his bung-hole. That's my vision.'
Survey says... Nope. The player's vision must fit within the boundaries of the sandbox. The sandbox does not need to expand to fit every player's fancies.
Edit to add: Since player's fancies are going to be contradictory, given enough players, the sandbox cannot expand far enough to encompass all of the players' visions of uberness.
That could be a very cool rendition of play dead: something like character model vanishes and turns into a tombstone/husk (whatever normally happens on character death). Character can't move, but regains fatigue and even health at a normal rate. If someone tries to loot the false husk, character reappears (but in a knocked down state).
For those looking for Tier 2 recipes and spells, you'll need higher level mobs, not just better knowledge skills. You'll still need significant luck. I've seen one Tier 2 recipe, from a group kill of a Risen Champion, iirc.
Stephen Cheney in another thread wrote:
The game can be played solo or duo, but not too long. Several weeks before you plateau probably. A group can likely get you ahead faster, but I know a lot of people want to learn at their own pace.
My main suggestion if you want to learn at your own pace: spend your XP slowly and hold a lot in reserve. Figure out what you think you want to do, and trickle XP into that. You might realize you want to go another direction entirely.
PvP hasn't been prevalent because there's pretty drastic in-game penalties (Reputation loss) and the looting rules haven't been implemented. The Reputation loss *will* be eased in the next round of Alpha, so there might be more killings. It likely won't be everywhere. There are patrolled hexes around all of the starter towns, and along major roads; the NPC guards haven't been set up to patrol these areas though, so we'll see.
A lot of people have come in being pretty anti-PvP, and come to tentative grips with it. How it actually works in game... We don't know and the penalties will likely be tweaked up and down so there is some player killing, but not excessive amounts. Enough that we wear armor most of the time, anyway.
The environment is populated with period respawns of mobs, not instanced quests, at least for now. One world; we're all competing or cooperating on killing the critters.
There's one part in the tutorial that says: buy the following skills from the trainer. At the bottom of that small paragraph it specifically says: if you have already bought these skills, you can buy other skills to finish the tutorial.
:Puts on old man hat:
The problem with gamers today, is they can't be bothered to read instructions. Or they're free spirits who don't think they should have to.
I think any tutorial that is based on these whippersnappers having to read and follow instructions is doomed to failure. Some significant fraction will always bypass key gates unless there are rigid limitations on their actions. That means programming time, requiring every single account to pass through the tutorial once, etc. It probably means we need some tutorial zone, because player johnny won't read. And maybe player johnny doesn't get his hand held early in EE.
:takes off old man hat:
(You can actually finish the training tutorial by buying one slottable passive skill, like one of the 8 point armor feats, and two 1 point skills. Any three skills get you through the skill-buying part. You do need one slottable feat for your paper doll; the two default club attacks can be used for the part on primary and secondary attacks.)
Agreed. I don't think the higher tier gear is 'just numbers', either. Anecdotally, the use of Tier 2 weapons against Tier 1 armor causes a lot more criticals (as expected by the higher d200 roll). This will have at least two effects:
- The Reactive feats based on criticals may become much more useful when facing forces that are (generally) lower level than your character.
- Criticals will eventually result in injury points. Injury points will degrade characters over the long-term, requiring extended rest or use up a lot of clerical power. That could mean that characters aren't infinitely playable. Even with large amounts of replacement gear, characters can get worn down by too many criticals. And higher levels (with good gear) will put out more criticals than people with lesser gear.
[And Takasi is correct as well, the Tier 2 crafter needs Adventurer types to get those Tier 2 recipes. They both need the high level PvPer to keep competitors away. It's an interdependent system.]
What is your opinion of the game so far? Where will it go from here? [A thread dedicated to give each person their opinion]
First time in the thread. Gold star for me!
The state of the game is getting there. Goblin Works knows there are some things that must be fixed before EE launch, and they'll fix them or get really close. Those things, I believe, are most stability related - because stability is directly tied to permanence.
I'm looking forward to PFO, though I think I'm looking forward to a game much different than many posters. I'm not a huge fan of most fantasy literature, the individual hero or the doughty band struggling against some huge arcane foe. I think a lot of TT and a lot of theme park MMOs cast the players into this role, the special snowflake that is saving the world, one encounter at a time.
I could never understand why there was a dungeon on the edge of town and the mayor and his guard did nothing about it. It never made sense that, after our party cleared a half-dozen encounters, we weren't hired, drafted or whatever - because we were apparently the only people in the country that could fight monsters. To me, the entire genre has a major disconnect. A game where the players are the gatherers and the guards and the mayor and the adventurers... That makes more sense than a game with 20,000 special snowflakes logged in at once. A bunch of us will be doing mundane things every day.
I think PFO is going to be in its foundation an economic and strategy game. The gatherers, the PvEers getting drops, and the outposts are going to feed a lot of the game. From playing ATitD and Wurm (PvE servers), I'll say there are gamers out there who are willing to gather, grind mobs, build and manage outposts and craft. And they'll compete and have conflict with each other.
PvP combat is only one avenue for conflict, but it's a good one for destroying material. It's an item sink at heart. It requires some part of all gathering and crafting be diverted to weapons and armor, and some large fraction of that will be lost in the course of the game. Hexes will be stripped bare to arm combatants, and settlements will go further afield to get more material for their armies. We might avoid end-game stasis like theme parks if we're all running to get more war material than those mooks in the next settlement.
For MvP, we only needed a few things. We need the foundation of an economic and crafting system (check). We need some ability to kill other characters when competition gets to that point (check). We need a stable platform so we log on confident that the stuff we made yesterday is still there (waiting). Note that if some other player burned it down, that's a bummer. If it just vanished because my electronic GM doesn't work... Not acceptable.
PvP is MvP. Player looting might not be - though it needs to be in soonish. We can have wars without player looting. I'd go so far as to say that we'll still fight over things that are worth fighting over; "meaningful" might often mean that you're willing to have your character die and lose equipment *even* without some chance of immediate payout.
I'm ready to get started. I think we can start as soon as the game is stable.
As part of their Alpha testing, Goblinworks opened up the Alpha servers for everyone with an EE account, to get people logged on, in order to stress the servers as part of the testing. So yes, if you have an account that will allow you into EE, you can log on now, in the Alpha server, and do a self-guided tour of what's there.
Stephen Cheney wrote:
In general, I'd love to hear some wide scale feedback on the usefulness of the shorter self buffs. The buffs are priced the way they are because, on paper, they should pretty significantly increase your damage output or survivability while they're active. So the longer I make them, the more likely it is that suddenly they'll tip and become so good they're practically required. But the math doesn't really account for the annoyance of frequent reactivation, so including that in the balance considerations is certainly possible based on player feedback.
Not speaking to alchemy, but to orison buffs (like Guidance) and utilities (like Tumble): If I can apply these before entering a moderate fight I will, but I rarely reapply them during a fight. Some part of that is experience - I just haven't run enough fights where I've had these on my tool bars and needed to use them. I expect EE with more PvP and large escalation fights may change the calculation - we'll use whatever we have at hand.
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
You know the number one reason people give for not playing so much these days? They want persistence. They want MORE of the game not less, and they want to start having lasting affects on the metaphorical and literal landscape.
Preach it, sister.
As soon as the game goes to EE, there will be more people playing. Persistance means every thing I harvest or loot is material for my company, if I can get it home.
People may say this or that needs to be in before EE. The stark reality is that when EE comes, anyone who insists on waiting instead of running is going to get lapped.
2. Do you really need skills to use T2 equipement? I mean skills better than can use T1?
From the spreadsheets:
To train Lv6 Armor Feats (ie, to use/access the Tier 2 Masterwork keyword), you first need to have trained the appropriate Lv2 Armor Proficiency.
To train Lv4 Weapons Attack Feats (ie, to use/access the fourth keyword - Masterwork) does not require the appropriate Lv2 Weapon Proficiency. The Lv2 weapon Proficiency is required for the Lv5 Weapon Attack Feats. I think this is a error in the spreadsheets.
@KarlBob: Utilities are a small set of (combat) feats that go in quickslots 7 & 8. Charge, Bull Rush, Lookout, Evasion, etc. The keywords on miscellaneous gear are used for utilities.
Miscellaneous gear can also be enchanted to boost (non-combat) skills. Utilities are not the same thing as enchantments, nor are they the same thing as miscellaneous gear.
Stephen Cheney wrote:
Eventually, most miscellaneous gear enchants will scale their passive bonus based on the total plus of the item. For example, a Tier 1 skill bonus enchantment adds 7 + Upgrade Level (e.g., a +3 item adds +10 to the skill).
This may be perfectly reasonable. I assume that the skill bonus enchantment isn't free: any enchantment has material costs of its own. I also assume that while the quality of the item has some minor effect, the majority of the effect is from the enchantment itself.
Note that Stephen is using a Tier 1 enchantment in his example. It's a low end enchantment and
BTW adding just one per plus strikes me as a bit low when considering the increased refining cost for the material...
Sounds like a classic implementation of diminishing returns; having each plus cost more than the one before it. Diminishing return sequences can get expensive fast - and we make decisions about how much we value the benefits.
I have access to two accounts and haven't had any problems going between them, logging on both with two clients, or dual logging two clients on either account.
The only (small) problem is that the account name block will always autofill with the last account I logged on. I was sometimes stopped when I first started, because the account name and password didn't match, but I haven't had problems with that for several weeks.
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Aren't items that increase carry capacity already a confirmed feature? I believe that the characters that can carry the most will be the characters wearing the gear that allows them to do so.
Yes, bags and pouches are already in the crafting system. They are worn in the same slots as cloaks and belts. Until cloaks and belts are more useful than carrying capacity, I'd imagine a lot of people will just carry bags.
I realise this is a work in progress, but it could really do with a breakdown of the weapons. Some of it might be obvious, but I don't think heavy was a category in PnP Pathfinder, e.g. is a longsword heavy?
As far as I can tell, the key difference between heavy and light melee weapons that the heavy weapons are martial weapons and the light weapons (dagger, short sword, rapier) are subterfuge weapons. The heavy weapon feats give Str attribute bonuses and the light weapons give Dex attribute bonuses.
But yes, it could be more clear - it confused me when I first started playing in Alpha, too.