Having played both a great deal I can say that, on paper, the games look the same, but the execution of their similarly listed features makes the games night and day. (I'm talking about EQ back at its height, before WoW came out. You cannot compare today's EQ which has tried to emulate WoW in some fashion). There was nothing like WoW when it came out, so it can't really be a clone. EQ2 was pushed to release 3 weeks before WoW, but since these two fought head to head, they didn't really clone each other.
That is what I question the most, however: The execution. You could make a list of 10 features in an MMO, give the list to 3 different game studios, and the three games could be radically different.
The problem is most games that diverge from the WoW model, or something typical of a non-MMO title + grind, are made by companies that do not have the resources to build a top rate MMO, and the one's made by major companies are always uninspired.
The safe investment bet over the long run is to copy what is successful. Companies will copy the success until it is no longer profitable. That would probably be now, since SWTOR failed.
I'm sure some of the games you listed, were they developing their game now, might have secured funding, but their ship has sailed.
On the other hand I'm sure many of the basement companies are basement due to design issues and philosophy. Some of them couldn't be successful even with more money or marketing.
The reason these basement companies keep popping up and releasing MMO's that actually enjoy enough players to continue running despite the fact they have no advertizing and a dismally low amount of content is because there are A LOT of people out there unsatisfied with what the MMO market currently offers.
I think basement MMO companies fill in niches that attract a small player base with specific needs. Without money they can't make the content, but without content they can't make the money, but without money they can't make the content, but...etc.
So they find a profitable line, make cuts and get to the target by catering to a smaller player base. And that's good. I'm happy there are enough MMO's out there that people want to play.
It's time the major companies abandon their futile attempts to dethrone WoW with WoW clones that produce nothing but more and more FTP WoW Clones, take a risk, and embrace some original ideas for once.
Well that's easy for you to say; it's not your money. :)
SWTOR, and also Curt Schilling, did the MMO industry no favors. Right now, MMO's just look like a bad bet. There's so many places you could invest with much less risk than an MMO.
Fans of the MMO genre should really be rooting for the next original MMO to succeed, whether it's EQNext, PFO, etc. It will open the doors for the rest.
World of Warcraft (Clone)
Okay, I'll bite. A clone of what? :)
I think everyone, in their mind's eye, has a vision for a "great" mmo. Since MMO's are so big, every single one will fall short of a personal ideal in one way or another. Then it comes down to how much of it you want to put up with the stuff you don't like versus the stuff you like.
Sometimes I'm convinced people ask for things in MMO's when they don't really know what they want. Myself included. So put in hats, Kentucky Derby style, or this game won't succeed!
Edit: Oh and I'm willing to give an SOE game another chance since Smed came right out on his Reddit AMA saying, "We screwed up SW:G, and I am so sorry for that." Immensely refreshing to see someone in the games industry admit to screwing up and learning from the mistake.
Interesting. Just a couple questions for clarification reasons:
1.) It says when you die you respawn with the gear you are *wearing.* I just want to be clear that this is the case, and that any gear you have in your bags is lootable (resist/tanking gear you keep on hand for whatever reason, etc.)
2. For the Bounty system, it says " Each time the bounty is paid, the victim has the option to issue it again. And again. A wealthy victim could maintain the price on the head of a murderer for a very long time—forever, if they like."
Will there be a time limit on how long you could place another bounty? Could you wait a month until you have more money and place another bounty?
If you had a bounty on your head, will there be an official, in game option to remove it through reparations with the victim? E.G. If there is a "misunderstanding" and I offer 500g to someone who is placing bounties on me(Say mediator NPC's at settlements who will hold the offer money in escrow and return/forward it based on acceptance or denial), will he/she no longer be able to place bounties on me, or is it "haha sucker thanks for the gold I'm still going to bounty you!"
I could see how griefers could twist this if not. You see a guy running through the woods with low health, saying he'll pay you to heal him...except he's still in combat with another player that he attacked nearby. You heal him, he goes to kill the other guy, and you just got suckered into getting bountied. Obviously this isn't the game where you would be inclined to help total strangers, but weird circumstances tend to arise(or you could be roleplaying).
Yup. Every thread basically boils down to PvP (consensual/non consensual), and what to do about griefers.
I stopped posting about it because there simply isn't enough information to have a good discussion about it. We are all taking vague terms such as "sandbox" and "pvp" and merely stating our perceptions on what that actually means as fact.
"You don't understand" "No, YOU don't understand!" "You're stupid!" "YOU'RE stupid!" "You're a towel!" "YOU'RE A TOWEL!"
Personally, I wear the label of Carebear proudly.
Okay seriously, no lie (from reading my posts you might not believe it). I played on Prexus in EQ since 2000, then on Medivh in WoW, from launch to today. Medivh as a whole was the first server to open the AQ gates with both Alliance and Horde teaming up and swapping supplies. Someone even photoshopped the Carebears holding runecloth bandages, healing potions, etc.
The way some of the threads lately are going it seems that since some board members don't want a game where walking out of town puts a bulleyes on your head we are killing the experience.
That's why you hire someone like me to guard you.
Well I'm a Carebear and proud of it I work 40+ hours a week have a young child and a wife in addition to a weekly game i run so i don't have time to be the best at fighting other tactics.
I'm not a father, but I am 32 and also work 40+ hours a week. 2 weeks out of every month I am somewhere in the US or Canada on business with a laptop that can't play games (okay, Terraria at 5 fps, and Fallout 1 & 2). My game time is also precious...although that children thing means you still have less time. :)
There are other threads on this, so I'll just say I'm for non-consensual PvP because the game is designed from the ground up with it in mind (as opposed to WoW, Rift, etc. where is it an addition).
It's almost as if those who want nonconsensual PvP are elitists who consider PvP to be the only true way of playing PFO...wait, that sounds like the same kind of griefers who corpse-camped a friend of mine in World of Warcraft once!!
Please reconsider putting labels on people that want something different than you. Your first sentence implies all people who want PvP a certain way are all elitist griefers.
To all you supporting non-consensual PvP: Have you ever actually thought that there might be good reasons why consensual PvP is a norm instead of an exception with most of the successful and FUN (mileage might vary though) MMORPGs lately?
Because the entire framework of the game is built around PvE play. I have played WoW since launch and it's clear the game was not designed with PvP in mind, it was something that was secondary to the rest of the game. There were too many CC's, so they added diminishing returns. Then the damage outdid the hit points of players, so they added resilience. They promised not to change abilities based on their PvP performance (see: Colossus Smash), but they did anyway, affecting its PvE performance.
The only possible solution(which they haven't tried yet and probably still refuse to do so), is making abilities different for PvE and PvP.
So to summarize and answer your question: I think the reason why consensual PvP is a norm instead of an exception with the most successful MMO's lately is because those MMO's were built with PvE as a primary concern, and PvP as an optional supplement.
A game built up around PvP as one of the primary activities is going to be different, and I don't think it's fair to look at it from the perspective of WoW/Rift/TOR, etc.
How about sliders to let you customize your spells?
The default setting is 100%, and you can mix and match to customize the spell to fit your needs.
Fireball, for example:
You can change and alter the spell to suit your needs at a safe spot, and your spellbook can keep a certain number of pre-altered versions of each spell.
For instance: You are going to help clear out an abandoned mine. The hallways are tight and danger is around every corner, so you prep fireball like this:
Because of confined spaces, the need for range and area of effect is lessened. You want more punch and want to get the spell off faster, so you raise those values of the default spell. It's all mobs and no PvP, so you increase Power and Casting Time at the cost of Mana because you know you will have more opportunities to rest.
The higher your magic skill, the more % you can add without increasing the cost, and the farther you can max out a bar.
Farming low level mobs:
This idea could be horribly bad or just okay. It's 4am, nothing good really happens about now! :)
I think it will be the trend until we have been shown something that explains otherwise.
It's all perception; I don't see non-consensual PvP as a problem because I think the world will be large, and there will be a lot of space to roam. I feel like someone that doesn't care about PvP will have the opportunity to explore many areas away from the danger of PvP. There will be haunted ruins, monster lairs, evil cults in the forest, and other NPC baddies that can be tackled far from the front lines. The risk is still there, but the chances of an enemy getting that far and then simply blowing their cover because they want to ruin your day by ganking you is minimal.
That's how I see it. I think there's a lot of overreaction by most of us here, though.
I am in favor of non-consensual PvP because I like the gameplay and social possibilities it will present. I think many people on both sides are taking things to their worst possible extremes: "non-consensual PvP" means the world will be an apocalyptic wasteland with griefers waiting every 10 feet. "PvE with consensual PvP" is just another WoW clone for people who already have more than enough games of that type to choose from.
Chubbs McGee wrote:
Potential customers are alienated in every market and in every industry. You have to make tough choices and choose what type of customer you want to make your product for.
I am not a business person or even business minded, but I imagine catering to all styles of gaming is better than alienating a bunch of people from the beginning.
Not necessarily. Sometimes taking the middle road and trying to please everyone ends up pleasing nobody. Both sides may end up despising the mediocrity that's offered for their playstyle and just leave for a game that's more slanted for what they prefer.
Here's the big question: Do you try to take a smaller slice from a big pie, or take a bigger slice from a smaller pie?
Alright, it will cost time and money to develop, but I imagine PFO would benefit from allowing Player A a way of avoiding PvP while allowing Player B to revel in it. Objectives and rewards in the game should cater for either style of play.
I don't disagree. If it has to be so, I think the best solution is servers with separate rulesets. Carving up the landscape into PvE/PvP regions on a server would not be ideal, IMO. ("I can't kill anyone on that side!" and "I can't explore and quest on that side without getting killed!")
Natan Linggod 972 wrote:
I don't see how my statement conflicts with your point of view. I also don't see how your post deals with the topic of the thread. Did you see "sandbox PvP game" and immediately go into attack mode?
Fine, I'll reword it: Friends in any online game you play are worth dying for. In MMO's, friends are more important than in game resources, which come and go.
You seem rabidly opposed to World of Warcraft and non-sandbox games in general.
Personally speaking, I am rabidly opposed to it because I already have quite a few choices when it comes to games like that.
I rather hope that they stay true to their vision and come up with a hybrid, rather than a sandbox. Yes, that means instanced content and quests and NPCs.
I don't want instances, but quests and NPC's would be nice.
Not just a lot of wide-open spaces that quickly become cluttered with houses, where roaming gangs gank other players and loot their corpses, burn down their houses and otherwise prove the axiom that it's easier to destroy than create.
You are thinking worst-case scenario, which seems to be the norm around here on all sides of the consensual/non-consensual pvp and Sandbox vs. Theme park argument. On one end, it's an apocalyptic wasteland, and on the other, it's a carebear wow-clone.
I'm sure there will be NPC-Kingdom controlled areas for one type of player, and the untamed wilds for the other.
A Man In Black wrote:
Man, I thought people left all the complaining about Wrath babies on the WOW boards. I guess not. Complaining that they weren't dedicated enough to it, demanding hardcore games for hardcore players such as yourself... well, that gives us Horizons. Horizons was not very good.
Where did I say I'm a hardcore player? I'm a casual player. I leveled alts to explore the zones, experience the different stories, and leveling tradeskills.
The point of my post was that you can't please everyone. I felt like Blizzard tried a middle of the road approach, and it failed to satisfy enough of both hardcore and casual players. There are many, many players that are better and more skilled than me, and I'm perfectly content with that. As a casual player, I was happy getting most things easy, and having to put at least some effort to get something good that I really wanted.
I'd also like to highlight a few words I've used:
Those are both game mechanics.
Right you are. I forgot to mention a planar ally would have to be assigned by a GM...but it would still be a game mechanic.
I guess option 2 would be, "I'm a GM, stop griefing or I will hit thee with the banhammer...or...something.(The GM is new and not decisive in this case)"
1: Game Mechanics - the game itself can establish limits on what can and cannot be done. It can also establish punishments for doing things that are considered poor behavior even if it does not outright restrict them.
Paladins. They spawn and hunt down the offender for their excessively cruel and sadistic ways. They drop no loot and give no exp or skills while being fought. They have smite evil which hurts griefers more (because they're evil). They also have divine grace to reduce damage taken. They cannot be drawn off the target of their ire (but they will come after you when the griefer is dead if you really want to intervene...)
2: Community Management - the humans who watch over the game can act to force certain kinds of behavior to cease when they are petitioned for help. Those same humans can escalate the matter to the point where a repeat or particularly egregious offender's accounts are closed.(*)
Outsiders. If someone is being griefed, they gain a Planar Ally(Devil, Demon, Archon, Inevitable, etc.), which cannot be detected by any means. If the player is griefed again, their Planar Ally springs into action. The planar ally stays around for a random amount of time so a griefer can't hover and predict when it's safe to strike again.
3: Social Engineering - the humans who play within the game can act to enforce certain norms of behavior by providing and withholding access to shared community resources in response to character behavior.
There's so many ways to go with this, but that's up to the players. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. I'll show myself out.
In addition to all of this, World of Warcraft had a well known ip from the previous three titles. I played World of Warcraft because I loved the RTS games, I stopped playing it when they began to pimp that lore out with rocket ships, motorbikes, hotrods and space goats. It went progressively down hill from the first expansion.
For me I felt it went downhill in Wrath. Before Wrath, there was a clear divide between dedicated players and casual players:
Personally it didn't have to do anything to do with the lore. WoW turned into a "Everyone gets a trophy" game. Casual players were given high level gear for substantially less time and effort. Most started to overestimate their own skill level, and quit when they couldn't hack it in Heroic 25-Mans. "I'm a good player! Look at all these purples I have! Heroic Mode is impossible!" Due to the instant gratification and easy rewards, the post-Wrath WoW player did not play in an environment that rewarded learning or, at the very least, just a little investment in time learning a fight. Soon they'd get bored and unsubscribe once they hit a wall where they had to put in some actual time and effort.
At the other end hardcore raiders were miffed about the fact that the gear they spent doing countless attempts on learning Heroic boss fights was only marginally better than what bad casual players could get. "Why do I have to spend hours and dozens of attempts perfecting my rotation and movement during a boss fight when those guys doing Normal get stuff almost as good as mine by just being able to breathe and press 3 buttons?"
I'm not even saying I'm right, that's just how I feel. Ugh, sorry I don't know why but I just had to rant about that.
P.S. Ryan: Don't always listen to the players! Sometimes we don't even know what we're getting into when we ask for something in an MMO. In fact, you can't even listen to what I'm saying RIGHT NOW! DOOOM!
How about both? :)
Small nodes randomly and infrequently spawn, and they are rarer. This will be a nice prize for small-operation explorers and guilds that don't have the resources(whether it be time, security, players and/or money for mining tools) to undertake excavating a large vein.
Large veins will appear in modular places (because I am sure terrain deformity and/or digging our own caves will not be technologically possible) in caves/dungeons/abandoned mines. These would be more ideal for larger guilds that do have what it takes to guard and extract these resources.
Also finding a large vein as a small time person would be awesome. "There's gold in them thar hills I tell ya! Seen it with my own two eyes, I swear to Desna herself! I see that glint in yer eye, son, and I know you and your folk will be wanting to grab that treasure! Well I got this map I'm selling to the highest bidder at noon today in front of the Drunken Dame! Don't you try no funny business cuz the guards'll be there!"
What Caineach describes is how I see the game. Now, I don't play EVE, but if PFO is going to be a sandbox game, this method is good.
I think the current perception is that you will spend 2 weeks making an awesome flaming axe to use, and you will get killed and lose it. In a game where dying and losing equipment happens easily, the equipment usually comes cheap and easy.
You can't compare a sandbox MMO loot to Diku/EQ/WoW style loot that is hard to obtain. The challenge is not gathering the materials to make the axe; the mats are easy to obtain. The challenge is spending 2 weeks discovering the way to MAKE the axe...and that cannot be looted off your character. So in a game like this, you die and lose everything. You respawn, you spend 5 minutes at the armory and re-outfit yourself with almost everything you just lost. You have another flaming axe, and you can keep making them as long as you keep enough materials in stock.
I have asked EVE players (and maybe one will confirm it here), but you can tell when a corporation is struggling to fight a war or has fallen on hard times: In the beginning they probably have tier 2 outfitted ships. As the war drags on and they drain their reserves, their ships slowly transition to tier 1, and the fleet makeup starts to favor smaller, cheaper ships in the field.
This game will largely sell to an American audience. Right now we(the US)are a country where you can show blood, gore, and dead bodies on CSI, but one nipple slip during a Super Bowl and half the country goes crazy.
Best to let those who want to participate keep it in the back alleys. To have the company officially endorse suggestive sexuality in the current nation's climate will kill the game before it's launched.
** I have not played any sandbox MMO's like EVE, just ones like WoW, EQ, etc. My idea probably has a lot of holes and I am more than welcome of constructive criticisms/improvements! :) **
Here's my idea:
The game will possibly be set in the Stolen Lands if Kingmaker is going to be an influence. While it is a frontier, the land is still owned by the new kingdom. You will have to file a claim at the registrar's office for the right to own land. You must have a reputation of at least neutral and not be considered a criminal. The Church of Abadar has clerics at the ready within the registrar's office at all times; portraits of the true land owners are kept on file and divinations are used to root out any deception. Thus, the claim to ownership cannot be stolen by anyone. Griefers and bandits that indiscriminately kill people are considered outlaws by the Stolen Lands authority. They cannot own land, and if someone were to become a griefer, their right to the land is revoked by the Kingdom.
What a law-abiding land owner can do:
- Own land as sanctioned by the rightful government of the Stolen Lands.
What griefers(bandits) can(and cannot) do:
- Bandits are allowed to build structures just like anyone else. However, they are criminals, not citizens; thus, any law abiding citizen may apply to own a piece of land that a bandit has already built upon. The Kingdom of the Stolen Lands recognizes the bandits inhabiting the area to be squatters. The new land owner may remove said bandits in anyway he sees fit. The new land owner may destroy the bandits' structures or he may just improve what is there.
The idea is simple: Griefers(bandits) have a harder life. They can only "own" what structures they can hold through force of arms. A law-abiding owner can make farms, alchemy labs, forges, stables, and mines and easily hire mercs to guard it because the Kingdom of the Stolen Lands grants him that authority. Bandits have no reliable access to alchemy labs for potions. No land to call your own to grow herbs for potions/magical items. No permanent claim to mines to make your weapons. No permanent place to set a forge. Now, bandits can build all of these things, but if they do not guard it well and keep its location a secret, they could stand to lose their investment. Perhaps bandits will make their own "Bandit city" like Tortuga in Pirates of the Caribbean; they could even make deals and trade with law-abiding citizens who secretly smuggle goods to them.
The point is to not make griefing impossible, just harder. This will discourage people who are looking for an easy way to ruin other peoples' experience(every time I try to attack someone, I get killed by guards! I'm not having fun because I can't grief anyone) , but it will encourage those who like a challenge(The law is against me, the citizenry is against me. I'm living life on the edge. Let's see how high my bounty can get and how much people talk about me before I get caught!)
If you want to play like a bandit, you will have to live like a bandit.
Jumping is fun. It's also a good way to get someone's attention!
"Selling displacer beast hides outside Daggerford town hall!"
There's 50 people outside the town hall...oh it's the guy jumping up and down...or maybe 49 people are jumping up and down, but the guy not jumping is the one.
Also, jumping will make it worth playing a monk. I think everyone will make a monk alt just for Leap of the Clouds, jumping across rooftops and over alleyways. (If it were a feature, of course).
At the end of SCAP, I had a "sage" come to Cauldron to see the devastation firsthand of the city. The sage talked to all the PC's and thanked them for being able heroes and saving many lives, but the eruption of Cauldron was a sign of darker things to come. Of course, the sage was implying the Age of Worms will soon be upon the world.
The sage's name was Lashonna. (She just had to see firsthand if it was true).
Oh, and as an afterthought; did you have fun? What's your favorite part of the AP from a player's point of view?
First off, thanks. I think our teamwork is definitely something that should be looked at. Hopefully we'll see.
I did have fun. Unlike the others in the group, I read the whole adventure path the second every issue got to my doorstep. Naturally it's been at least a couple years, so I forgot enough with all the other material I read to make it exciting still. I'd have to say my favorite parts were the big fights in Kings of the Rift and Library of Last Resort. Since I knew it was coming, my opinion as a player is a little corrupted, but watching the other players groan while I silently giggled in anticipation for what was to come was very memorable. My excitement was really fueled by the fact that all my gaming friends will get to experience such a great adventure path.
Thanks for the advice guys. There are other problems I think that go beyond the right spells and equipment which I will be sure to address; namely, our casters are overly-defensive. Torc mentioned Dragotha, and I was reminded of what happened in that fight; the Crusader(me) and the Swordsage were between Dragotha and the casters(a cleric, druid, wizard, and sorcerer), and most of them spent the first round or two casting defensive spells instead of blowing him up.
Greater Spell Immunity does not protect against a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance, like Greater Dispel Magic.
Hello ladies and gentlemen. I am not entirely sure if this is the place to ask, but it is an Age of Worms campaign we are playing. I'm seeing a lot of threads talking about encounters being too easy and the DM's having to buff up the encounters in numerous ways to make it a challenge, but we are having the opposite effect. As the module Dawn of a New Age is written, we are having a tough time of it, so I am resorting to the boards to ask for help.
1. My DM knows I am posting this. We are on Dawn of a New Age, and since it's the end asking for help is okay(because he wants to let the next DM start so he can play again).
This is our first high level game as a group, so I realize that we may not fully realize our destructive potential, and any help is appreciated. We'd like to see this thing to its end, and if anyone that wouldn't mind helping needs any more information I will gladly provide it. Here are some of the things that we have tried already or have been done to us:
1. Anything that has Greater Dispel will use it very, very liberally, targetting us and stripping away buffs. We normally go in a fight with Sheltered Vitality, Heroes feast, status, energy immunity(cold), mass resist energy(fire, acid, electricity), death ward, stalwart pact, freedom of movement. We normally leave a fight with all the melee losing most of these.
Thank you for any help provided!
Hey all! I am an avid Dungeon reader. Since I have read all 3 AP's, I know them pretty well. I am currently running SCAP. Someone else will be running AoW by the time the Holidays roll around.
I know AoW pretty well, so in the spirit of not meta-gaming and being fairly experienced for 15 years, I am looking for suggestions that involve interesting and/or challenging characters. Here's the rundown:
1. 32 point buy
- Fighter: Longspear + spiked gauntlet: reach, and slap anyone that comes too close until short haft(if I feel like getting Short haft!)
I have a few more, but they are relatively standard. If there was ever a time where you asked yourself, "I wonder what how an X would fare in the AoW?" Now is the time to post!
Your suggestions are appreciated! I will be sure to share future exploits, my character choice, and all the awesome ways I will die/make a fool of myself for humor purposes!
Exiles is the only comic I buy right now.
I would have probably skipped over the entire thing if Blink from Age of Apocalypse wasn't in the comic.
Although she's been my favorite for years, the comic has a great direction, awesome characters, and a widely varied storyline that keeps me checking too often at the comic book shop.
Edit: I highly recommend picking this one up to anyone. It's one of the rare comics you just can't miss.