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Ebon Acolyti

Urath DM's page

757 posts. Alias of Mark Greene.


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Token Resources:

Devin Night has made his first 20 token packs free. Search for "Devin Night" on Roll20, and you will find a variety there. These free tokens are his earlier works, and are not quite correctly scaled (visually) for what you might expect. For example, goblins look the same size as Medium creatures. The packs do include things like some animals, camp scenes, bodies, as well as characters and a few townsfolk (not enough to give everyone in Sandpoint a unique token, though).

On his site, he has a couple of free token packs with Pathfinder characters. These were made on commission for paying customers who have agreed to make them available to the public. Gogmurt, Koruvus, Ameiko, Shalelu, and more are there.

His kickstarter included a good number of basic monsters.

Many of the other packs are probably available through Roll20's marketplace. I prefer to buy direct from Devin Night's site, so I can use them in multiple places.

You could also choose to pick up some of the Pathfidner Paper Minis here on Paizo's site. There is a Sandpoint townsfolk set in addition to the sets for each part of the AP. You could extract the images and with a little cropping make full-face tokens out of them for your own use.

There is the "Faction Guide" which extends the concept of factions to home play. In that, the Pathfinders are just one single Faction, while other groups (Aspis Consortium, Whispering Way, various churches, etc.) are others.

They use the same mechanics as PFS, but are not part of organized play.

There are also various Faction-lite organizations in Inner Sea Magic (Guilds, Schools), Inner Sea Combat (Gladiator Arenas, Martial Academies), and Occult Mysteries (Secret Societies) that use a modified version of the same mechanics.

I find the Faction Guide and related materials useful for letting the PCs participate in factional politics in my home games without worrying about the PFS factions.

Rednal wrote:

*Glances in*

As a personal note, uh, I probably wouldn't refer to two books, plus sidequests, as an 'Adventure Path'. At the moment, this sounds closer to being an "Extended Two-part Adventure", especially if you're not starting at Level 1 or 2 and going all the way up.

Agreed. This sounds more like a marketing stunt than an actual Adventure Path.

Thank you all for your input.

For the record, I am the GM and asked the question in fairness to a player who feels the free feat should also imply that the animal automatically knows how to flank on command.

Inner Sea Magic contains some goodies on Razmir (class and level, an archetype for his priests, etc.) that help to explain his rise to prominence.

The Cult Leader Mesmerist archetype in Occult Adventures has "Razmir" written all over it, for me. I could see Razmir being ret-conned into one.

My Self wrote:
You get bonus tricks as part of Animal Companion progression. 1 at 1st level, 2 at 3rd, 3 at 6th, 4 at 7th, 5 at 9th, 6 at 12th, 7 at 13th, 8 at 15th, 9 at 18th, 10 at 19th.

Yes, but the question is "do you have to use one of those to teach the AC to flank, or does having the Outflank feat as a bonus selected here include the AC knowing how to flank when needed?"

Cavall wrote:
Entirely relevant as you gain teamwork feats for free.

Not relevant as that is a different class ability than the one being discussed.

Thanks, but the question is raised in the context of the Class Feature that offers the Outflank and Precise Shot feats as options. Other feats, even if possibly better choices, are not relevant to the question.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Advanced Class Guide, Hunter, Precise Companion wrote:

Precise Companion (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter chooses either Precise Shot or Outflank as a bonus feat. She does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat. If she chooses Outflank, she automatically grants this feat to her animal companion as well.

Does the granting of the Outflank feat's benefits to the Animal Companion assume that the Animal Companion knows how to flank with the Hunter, or is it up to the master to maneuver into flanking position?

Must the Hunter train the Animal Companion to flank in order to do it on command (using the "Flank" trick from the Animal Archive or "Other Trick")?

Low-Light vision says you can see twice as far as a human in the same lighting conditions. So the torch that provides a 20 ft radius of normal light and an additional 20 ft ring (out to 40 ft from the source) of dim light for a human provides 40 ft of normal light and dim light out to 80 ft for someone with low-light vision.

THAT can be incredibly useful in an adventure where the ambient light is "none" (like most dungeon settings).

Most PC-available Darkvision is 60 ft. What is murky about that is Dim light. Pretty clearly you see normally in "normal" light, and see clearly in monochrome out to 60 ft if there's no light. But it is not clear how it is affected by Dim light.

Reference: PRD; scroll down to "Vision and Light", there's text under the table that goes into this.

My peeve with the lighting rules is that they are written pretty solely from the perspective of someone standing with a light source (torch, lantern, etc.).. and not from the perspective of something lurking in the dark, where that light source makes the bearer a target.

Joe Hex wrote:

It's frustrating that I still can't find an in-store released date for the book anywhere. Everyplace I check, has a different release date listed, and those dates are constantly changing. Some don't have a date at all. As of this week, I've seen Aug 20th, Aug 18th, and Aug 13th. I wonder where they are even getting those dates?

Is July 29th exclusive to the Paizo store? If so,it makes it hard on us players who want to support the local hobby/game shops. Not only are those shops owned locally, they are also the places that host things like organized play, and even let a group reserve a night just to play with their own group. It would be sad to see these stores accommodate Gamers like that, and then have all those players just end up buying their books online. It's hard enough that small stores cannot compete with online prices, but getting their books almost a month later makes things worse.

The listed PDF release date is also the expected store release date. All stores are supposed to wait until this date... though some may put it up for sale early.

Local stores in the US should all have the book in time for the release date, unless their distributor ships to them oddly, etc. That's not under Paizo's control.

Amazon and other sellers sometimes estimate their release dates when their distributors have not given them the firm date, often well in advance of the final date. So sometimes those dates are far from accurate.

langen wrote:

Yeah, there's alot here if you can find it. One of the ways of making a town come alive is to have different people walking about different parts of town, chatting with friends, buying stuff, selling stuff, flirting with girls, etc. Sandpoint becomes "dead" when it's still. So the people about doing stuff is quasi-important. Oh, and rumors really help too. So when the AP says there's rumors about, have people in town gossiping about whatever it is. And exaggerate and change them as you go along so they act like real rumors do. Case in point, Banny and Katrine. Have the rumors go the gamut of the innocent to the extremely raunchy, depending on who's telling it.

Don't forget Gorvi's Boys.. the local garbage/trash collectors.. they can be out and about at all hours, and are likely "invisible" to the main populace.. so they have probably seen or heard a lot of interesting things.

Some GMs just don't allow Leadership at all, because of potential abuses and odd things that can happen. As a relatively new GM, you'd be perfectly within your rights to say "we're not using leadership in this campaign". Similarly, if you think it would be disruptive, you can say "no" for that reason as well.

Also, if there are 5 PCs, there is less need for additional help (since the AP was designed with 4 in mind). The more PCs you have over 4, the less need there is for Leadership.

IF you do decide to allow Leadership, read up on it.

Older versions of the rules used to restrict Followers to NPC classes (Warriors, Adepts, Aristocrats, Experts, and Commoners); I don't see that in the current write-up, but they are still "generally 5 or more levels below" the leader, so claiming a 4th or 5th level Follower at 7th level seems out of bounds.

Some of the factors he's counting on for his super-leadership score are not really his to decide. "Great Renown" ... would likely mean being famous beyond Sandpoint (such as in Magnimar and other cities and towns around Varisia).

Treating Cohorts as "crafter slaves" is one of the potential abuses. Remembeer that the Cohorts and Followers are "people" too, and they can reject unreasonable demands. Note that the modifier for Reputation (Great Renown, Fairness and Generosity) are the opinions of the Cohort and Followers.. not necessarily the general public. If word gets around that he's a terrible boss, or a great boss, that's what this is about. He probably shouldn't be able to "buy" that.

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Are they prolific enough that a one-click "flag as spam thread" link, like the hide link, is warranted?

I think Leadership is a good example. "The Party" taking Leadership and getting one (shared) Cohort and (shared) group of Followers might be easier to manage than multiple PCs having them.

It somewhat goes along with having a "Group Reputation" (Ultimate Campaign)... and treating "the party" as a quasi-character type of thing goes along with the Kingdom, Caravan, and Expedition type rules.

Haladir wrote:

Many of us have re-built several NPCs and villians using rules published after the AP had hit the shelves. I'd like to use this thread to share that work in one place.

Obviously, this thread will abound with spoilers, so players should stay away.

Nice. I saw the thread title and was about to suggest the same thing.

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Set wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Now I want to see Mel and Alain in a "buddy" road trip/dungeon delve misadventure.

Alain will be riding his horse.

Meligaster will be riding Alain. "Giddyap, you dumb beast!" <Smack>

Exactly. Something like McClure & Chaos, Dastardly & Muttley, or Fate & Meen.

Two fun movies, and a cartoon derived from one of them!

Kalindlara wrote:

I'm still trying to come up with other suggestions... I like that the Player Companion line is Golarion-specific, so I'd like to see stuff for specific organizations or nations.

-More stuff for Norgorber's faithful would be cool.
-A Cheliax-specific inquisitor archetype for Thrune agents would be interesting.
-I'd love to see more Aspis Consortium or Whispering Way content.
-This probably isn't the right book, but I would love to see the options for the "lesser" Hellknight orders developed.

That's all I've got so far...

A Drow Fleshwarper archetype for the Alchemist :)

Paizo's "retcon" efforts usually take the form of no longer mentioning the thing being removed. They don't usually come out and say "we said this before but now we're saying something else".

You are completely free to use the old material if that's what you want... just that Paizo's published materials will not have any additional developments for that element.

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Milo v3 wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

By the way -- they also left out any references to the new classes as intuitive/self-taught/trained -- and unlike with the Advanced Class Guide, we have no parent class information that we can use to make a guess with. Without that information, the allowed starting ages for these new classes are uncertain.

Do people actually use those?

Well, for one thing tools like HeroLab use them to auto-generate age ... so Paizo will likely need to specify for them if for no other reason.

Exactly, Mr. Geddes.

My point is not that 3pp can't produce balanced material. It is that each publisher has a different sense of what is "balanced", of tone, of style; and an AP in which each publisher contributes one adventure (as a hypothetical model) would mean that the sense of balance, tone, and style would vary from volume to volume. It would feel less like an AP and more like a series of individual modules strung together. And, yes, even if Paizo is one of the participants, that remains the case.

Throwing a bunch of names in the pot can't be the sole draw.

Much of the bad rap for 3pp publishers, I think, comes from differing sense of balance. Each publisher has its own sense of what is "balanced"... when people really like a 3pp, it is largely because that publisher's sense of balance matches that of the reader.

Since each is different, an AP based on each 3pp providing one volume, for example, is a nearly sure-fire way to create a giant failure.

So it comes down to the plan more than the participants. A bad plan with great participants will fail; a great plan will help even poor participants fare better.

So what makes for a great plan? Well, as others (such as OceanshieldWolf) have mentioned, it includes playing to each participant's strengths. I also think having a single Developer responsible for ALL volumes of the AP is key.. to achieving consistency throughout.

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plassteel wrote:
So this will cover all Summoner well what he can summon from basic to well crazy stuff these guys come up with?

No, it has very little to do with the Summoner class. It is mostly about tools that affect the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells.. for any classes that can use them.

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LazarX wrote:
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
Also in Golarion: Can't normal elves still become drow? It wasn't a one time event, but a distinct possibility for any modern elf that starts worshipping demons?
Yes, but it is literally a one time in a thousand years type of event, usually requiring special circumstances such as both exposure to the radiations of the Darklands, AND an especially evil act of passion. Plenty of evil elves exist which never become drow.

It is rare, but not that rare.

Second Darkness:
The storyline of Second Darkness has 2 instances in less than a century... and those the only discussed instances... the implication being that there could be a lot more... at any time.

Exactly what is required is not specified.. so it is a GM's call.. but there's no requirement for the "radiation of the Darklands" unless a GM specifies so in his/her own campaign. The especially evil action seems to be a key, though, and maybe a lifetime of gradually increasing intentions like that (at least from the two cases in the AP).

Which is why the Lantern Bearers are sent to murder anyone who finds out that there are Drow, or that the change from normal Elf to Drow can happen. They're not the benevolent organization they like to appear to be.. they're at least partially a hit squad for an arguably Lawful Evil shadow government among the Elves.

LazarX wrote:
Drow continue to exist, because for all of the constant backstabbing and maneuvering, drow have developed a form of etiquette which discourages betrayals that weaken drow as a whole. So instead, it becomes a form of social darwinism, that weeds out the stupid, foolish, and the weak.

Well, yes, much more so than random foam-at-the-mouth let's-kill-each-other caricatures.

So.. I had a similar issue in my game.

If you have the Anniversary Edition,


there's a table of Knowledge checks for Thassilon in the SECOND book, Skinsaw Murders, under the investigation part. A DC 25 Knowledge (history) check gets them all of the information Brodert Quink can give them, and XP for getting it either from him or through their own check.

You can use this ahead of time in your game to determine what they know.

Reminder: A Natural 20 is NOT an automatic success on a skill check, unless you're using house rules.

EDIT: Ninja'd while composing. However, a class with Knowledge as a class skill can easily have a +5 or greater modifier at 1st level.. and they probably should be 2nd or maybe even 3rd by this point in the adventure.

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Dracovar wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
...though my impression is that the popular stance in this thread is that drow are chaotic stupid to the point of not even having a self-preservation instinct.

And therein lies a problem - if you want a Drowic society that has some functionality/sustainability they just can't be that Chaotic Stupid - despite portrayals in various modules (and books - but I'm not a fan of Salvatore by any means). Such portrayals should not be taken as canon, but as fictional plot devices (and lazy writing, frankly).

It's like passing off the worst Lawful Stupid behavior and considering it the norm and popular method to roleplay a Paladin.

So there's a big issue exposed right here.

R. A. Salvatore's works may be canon for the Forgotten Realms, but Golarion isn't the Forgotten Realms.

Other than the statistics and mechanics for the Drow, anything put out by Wizards of the Coast is their IP, or which makes use of their IP by permission, is not canonical for Golarion and largely *cannot be* except for the broadest elements.

The Advanced Race Guide, being "world-neutral", avoids Golarion-specific content but can serve as an ok baseline.

If you want to talk about the Drow in terms of Golarion canon, then you need to be looking mostly at what's in Second Darkness (especially part 3, "The Armageddon Echo", which has the support article "Drow of Golarion" in which topics such as child rearing are discussed, and "Endless Night" which is about daily life as a servant in a Drow noble family). There's a little in "Into the Darklands" and a bit more scattered in other sourcebooks, but the vast majority is in the Second Darkness AP.

The original update was made to the Occult Adventures playtest, it seems. That has been corrected and the Vigilante playtest document has now been updated.

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langen wrote:

This NPC guide from Yossarian is amazing. Yossarian fleshed out some of the factions present in Sandpoint, and gave them some motives.


Lamontius wrote:

start with something smaller

so your new players can learn and play around
before they are tied to a character for six AP chapters

If you do go that route, the module The Godsmouth Heresy is for 1st level characters and is set in Varisia (at Kaer Maga).

It also has some Thassilonian hints, like the Rune Guardian and Lustspawn, that may add to RotRL.

Depending on how new your players are, you may want to consider giving them pre-generated characters. If you allow them to create their own, I would suggest limiting the races to the Core Rulebook at first, and using a higher point-buy method (20 pts). Discourage taking a reduced score (less than 10) for more points, as new players can be surprised by the effects of penalties on other rolls.

Otherwise, for atmosphere, paying attention to the weather for each day can be a good detail to include. I use the historical weather from a real-world city (Seattle, WA) for Sandpoint. This can be found HERE.

Also, other resources:

Undead Unleashed:
Contains a write-up of Ordellia Whilwren's ghost as a mostly-helpful presence in the Ordellia neighborhood of Magnimar.. and her haunted townhouse.

Godsmouth Heresy:
Contains a new monster, the Rune Guardian, a low-power construct from Thassilon.

Years ago, in Dragon magazine, there was an article about the population growth rates of fantasy races (Dragon #89, "Survival is a Group Effort" by Stephen Inniss) based on the known science of population growth in the real world.

The key factor is how many female children live to grow up and have more children, with the other factor being how long it takes them to reach child-bearing age.

Races with low birthrates are usually so because they have either or both of these factors: a long time to reach reproductive maturity, or a low number of female children per family.

Fascinating article.

If you like the "parchment" map in the Varisia player Companion, there's a poster-size version of the same map in the Shattered Star Map Folio, along with poster maps of Magnimar and Kaer Maga. The Kaer Maga map may not be of immediate use to you, but if you like poster maps, the other two are likely to be of use.

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There's a LOT in Second Darkness.

Background about Earthfall and what it was like is part of it.

Second Darkness:

Volume 3 you get to "time travel" to see some of the lead-up to Earthfall, and how the Elves treated it.. sort of.

Volume 4 is essentially "Life of the Aspiring House Servants". If you have not read through this, you lack crucial information on the politics within a noble house.

Volume 5 presents the Dark Fate.. behold, an Elf who is wicked enough, and who acts on sufficient wickedness, can become a Drow.

Unfortunately, it needs to be fixed to really live up to its promise.

But without reading through it (and the support articles), the outsider's view is based on a few short blurbs and it is easy to dismiss all of the Drow as being rabid foaming-at-the-mouth-to-kill self-destructive morons.. but they're not.

In the end, what they do, they do for personal advancement.. they need a society in which to advance, so preserving that takes precedence over advancing (for most, anyway). And since the ones in charge like having something to be in charge of, they do their best to keep the backstabbing of the underlings... managed.

Kalindlara wrote:
Urath DM and captain yesterday nailed it. Bonus points for the Jinin reference. ^_^

Well, you know, 4 ranks in "Lore (Second Darkness)" + 3 Class Skill Bonus (for my Charter Superscriber Vigilante identity) + 2 Trait Bonus (Golarion Historian) + 2 Circumstance Bonus (Put Second Darkness and Inner Sea World Guide into RealmWorks) = +11 on any Second Darkness related questions. :)

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captain yesterday wrote:
I thought the Elves knew Earthfall was gonna happen beforehand so most packed up for Castrovel but some stayed behind to wait it out underground, so they would actually be underground when Earthfall happens, I don't have Second Darkness but that's what I gathered from other sources, I could be wrong tho :-)

That is correct.

The Elves knew Earthfall was coming. Most Elves fled via gates. Some decided to stay, some thought the fears were over-blown and nothing would happen, while others sought refuge in deep caves under the mountains. When Earthfall finally hit (which was more like several large meteors, rather than just one big one), it disturbed Rovagug and a surge of power warped some of the Elves underground into the Drow (note: the origin of the Elven nation Jinin in the Dragon Empires is related to this). The Elves who were warped had already shown a selfish trend by driving out those who would become the Elves of Jinin without "a fair share of the food and supplies".

Other tidbits:

As you're new, don't rush.. don't feel like you have to get it perfect the first time through. Don't make it any harder on yourself than you must.

Concentrate on having fun together.. it needs to be fun on both sides of the screen.

So, TheLorax mentioned locals. Most of the descriptions of Sandpoint seem to be phrased assuning the PCs are not locals, and have just arrived. The Goblin Watcher campaign trait makes the PC a local to Sandpoint. It is likely going to be easier on you if *everyone* is a local, or *no one* is a local. Mixing the two is likely the most difficult approach.

Otherwise.. depending on your budget... you might want to consider picking up some parts of other APs that take place in Varisia (more appealing if you want to read them regardless of whether your friends take to gaming or not):

Second Darkness presents the city of Riddleport and a relative of one of the NPCs in Burnt Offerings (as well as some details of his backstory). The Players' Companion and Volume 1 are all you would need from this AP ... the rest takes place elsewhere. If some of these NPCs happen to pass through Sandpoint while the PCs are there.. that could become fun later.

Shattered Star is something of a sequel to the early Varisia APs. Volume 1 takes place in Magnimar, and there are NPCs and scenes that you can steal to make the place even more detailed. It could be fun to have some of these NPCs just appear as "walk on" characters, only to be more significant if the players go on to play the later AP.

Jade Regent has more information on Ameiko and Shalelu, as well as Koya Mvashti (a daughter of Madame Mvashti) and Sandru Vhiski in the Jade Regent Players' Guide. If your players are interested in romance with some of them, the Relationship rules in Ultimate Campaign appeared here originally, and some guidelines on how to use them with these NPCs are provided.

The adventure Doki-Chan mentioned is Dawn of the Scarlet Sun and is available free HERE at

In addition, if your budget allows, the Rise of the Runelords Face cards HERE might be useful, too.

There's already some very good advice here. I will add my voice to stressing the use of Sandpoint.. try to play up the NPCs as people, with quirks, likes, dislikes.. the more real they feel to the players, the better.

Syrinscape has licensed RotRL to produce sound packs for. These are coordinated sound-and-music packs with pre-defined sets for each part of the adventure. So there is a sound pack for each book of RotRL, and several sound sets for the sections within each book.

Wayfinder (the free fanzine published by Paizo Fans United under the Community Use Policy) is a fantastic resource for this. The first two volumes are a bit of a hodge-podge, with bits from all over the setting and only a couple from Varisia specifically, but well worth it. Wayfinder #7 is focused on the initial 3 Varisia-specific APs and has a wealth of material you may find useful.

If you can, print the handouts and give them to the players.

Depending on your budget:

Magnimar: City of Monuments can help to add detail to the city.

Lost Cities of Golarion presents the end goal location in a "five years later" view (presuming the original edition timeline). You may or may not find that helpful.

Lost Kingdoms presents information on Thassilon.

If you are using a tabletop grid, the Pathfinder Pawns collection for RotRL may be useful; or the Pathfinder Paper Minis sets.. these were updated after the RotRL Anniversary Edition was published to include artwork for new characters/encounters.

If you are using a VTT program, Devin Night has some free Pathfinder token sets based on the Iconics, including some characters from RotRL (Koruvus, Gogmurt, and more).

I think the big issue is they seem to be using the Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign. You can learn a language using the Retraining rules, but that one sounds a little "iffy" as presented here. It is not horrendously abusive as presented, but a little over-generous may be the way to look at it. The use of tongues seems like just a flavoring for how the period of self-study worked.

If you have not looked at these, you may want to look at them.

Downtime on the PRD

Retraining on the PRD

I think the FAQ answer is less in question than the fact that True Strike is on the Alchemist's Extract list when it appears not to be eligible.

The FAQ answered the question raised, which used True Strike as an example. There is no issue with the FAQ answer if you substitute another appropriate spell/extract for True Strike. The issue is that True Strike, specifically, is on the extract list even though it is not eligible.

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Drow don't plot and scheme to kill each other just to kill each other.. they plot and scheme to kill each other to get ahead in Drow society. They pick someone above them who has exposed an opening, and they strike.. sometimes planning for years for the opportunity. Survival of the Drow still trumps that personal ambition, owing to their origin as the 'abandoned' Elves forced to survive in the hostile, lightness Darklands.

At this point, Second Darkness contains the definitive canonical information on Drow (in the support article "Drow of Golarion"). There is some additional information in "Into the Darklands".

Some minor detaila may have changd from 3.5 to Pathfinder (Elves in 3.5 did not sleep; Pathfinder Elves do, for example), but for the most part the 3.5-era content remains the core. Some mechanics have been re-visited and expanded (Fleshwarps and Fleshcrafts in Inner Sea Magic, and the Pain Taster class in Occult Mysteries, as examples).

The Second Darkness AP used some mechanical materials from Green Ronin's "Plot & Poison" (a sourcebook on Drow), which was revised to be the "Advanced Race Codex: Drow" for 3.5 (PDF only as far as I know), but I don't think any cultural material was used.

Wayfinder #9 has some interesting material on Drow and Duergar.

EDIT: Fixed name of Green Ronin product, and added reference to Wayfinder #9

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cartmanbeck wrote:
FLite wrote: wrote:
I'll see what I can do to address your points James.

While you are at it. :)

The Traits > Religeous notes that they require worship of specific dieties (not listed there) but on the pages for the traits themselves there is no note of that requirement. Might be a good idea to add that.

Unfortunately this is one of the things that cant' really be done, as the specific deities' names can't be listed there since those names are not covered as part of the Compatibility License. For religion traits, I would absolutely suggest checking Archives of Nethys for deity requirements before you take one of them.

There was a similar issue with other Traits and Prestige Classes related to Factions.. an unmentionable name that is a built-in requirement. The wording adopted there to the effect of 'this was originally presented as belonging to a specific organizations; GMs and players should consider whether there is a suitable organization in the campaign when adopting this entry' might be suitable here as well.

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My view on Lawful / Chaotic societies:

*Social* alignment is different from *Personal* alignment.

Lawful societies have institutions, like a Watch, Army, and Orphanages, to deal with specific needs. Individual citizens are NOT expected to act on their own when the functions of such agencies are needed.. they are expected (and themselves expect) the agencies to take the necessary action and deal with it.

Chaotic societies lack some or all such institutions. Orphanages may be privately funded by a family, clan, or individual for their own reasons. Peacekeeping (as the Watch would) may depend on individuals taking action when the occasion arises.

Contrast with *Personal* alignment, in which, for example a Chaotic and Lawful retainer to the King, Charles, may be expressed as:

The Lawful retainer is loyal to the King (the institution of Kingship) who happens to currently be Charles.

The Chaotic retainer is loyal to Charles (a personal loyalty) who happens to be the current King as well.

There is no legal product like that to my knowledge.

Lone Wolf Development, the folks who created HeroLab, are in discussion to get publishers to publish campaigns in their RealmWorks tool. The components that would make such a campaign work are "in progress" as well, so the program is not quite ready for that. But the idea is that you would be able to purchase a campaign to run digitally from the RealmWorks program.

Some users have been surprised that there is NO printing at this time, and NO export, so be warned that is the case.

You can check it out "HERE

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A big factor would be if you plan to run Second Darkness eventually, or not.. and, if so, is it supposed to be in the same continuity as the current game. If it is, the Bellona's point (and the spoiler below) are relevant. If not, they are less so.

Bellona wrote:
It's my understanding that no one on Golarion (except for the Winter Council) believes in the existence of Drow until the events of Second Darkness. Of course, this is your campaign, and so you can do you own spin on how things work. :)

Second Darkness Spoiler:

The Winter Council and their agents, the Lantern Bearers / Shin'Rakorath. Which agents, it is at least implied, are used as black ops hit squads who make people that do find out "disappear". The Winter Council is dead set on suppressing this information by any means necessary.

As evidenced by the actual plot of Second Darkness, there are Drow agents who are active on the surface.. but they are generally part of a group, not sole operatives.

Based on the question "are you going to eventually run Second Darkness" and "is it in the same world-version as this game", that should probably guide your choices here. If you want to run Second Darkness someday in the same setting, minimizing the impact would probably make the most sense.

Pseudos wrote:
Urath DM wrote:

This is probably better suited to the Rules Questions forum.

However, the problem here is that you are assuming the Skill Unlock is based on the Alternate Crafting rules. Based on the "5 Ranks" ability, that is NOT the Alternate Crafting Rules.. that is based on the CRB standard rules... presumably, then, so are the others.

You are correct and I am well aware that skill unlocks assume standard rules, and not the alternative. I say directly "The issue is that rank 15's ability conflicts with the alternate crafting progress", so I am well aware of the issue and am seeking a homebrew solution, since I know the RAW intention was not the alternate system. I omitted ranks 5's entry as being an issue because the doubling of a check is easy to switch from a day to a week, and I'm okay with the doubling of a check period.

What I'm not okay with is a 10* faster craft(scaling the week's progress to a day results in a 5* faster craft which stacks with the 2* from level 5), which is why I posed the question seeking a happy medium.

Do you have anything to put forth on that subject? Is the 10* faster craft not a big deal? Do you have an idea to better balance it?

Sorry... I thought you were expecting the Skill Unlocks to mesh with the Alternate rules. It would have been nice if there had been an entry that did note some uses with the Alternate rules.

For both the 5 and 15 rank bonuses, I am debating granting a "virtual" bonus to the craft check for purposes of determining progress. Since the Alternate rules allow incrementing a multiplier based on each "5" factors of the check over the DC, adding an extra 5 at 5 ranks and another extra 5 at 15 ranks, solely for the calculation of progress, seems like it might work.


VMC involves giving up 5 Feats to gain a limited progression of a specific class feature from another Class. You don't get to "pick" what feature that is. In that sense, there is no "secondary class".. just one specific feature from another class. As such, there is no "secondary class" to apply an archetype to.

This is probably better suited to the Rules Questions forum.

However, the problem here is that you are assuming the Skill Unlock is based on the Alternate Crafting rules. Based on the "5 Ranks" ability, that is NOT the Alternate Crafting Rules.. that is based on the CRB standard rules... presumably, then, so are the others.

RAW, it looks like the longer time.

This is probably more appropriate in the "Rules Questions" forum.

graystone wrote:
Urath DM, how can we focus on the part that isn't in the playtest? Add to that that the class should be functional outside that part AND inside that part. As is, there are huge flaws like 5 min change times where you are a NPC class if combat breaks out. On the 'additional subsystems', I'll be more than happy to comment them when we actually see them. Before then, it's impossible to factor them in.

Well, that's why I said

There has been mention made of additional subsystems that will be part of the full book. I think the playtest is hampered by not having those, but at the same time the playtest can't include the entire content of the book. So that's what we have to work with.

We don't have those to work with, so we can't really test them. But my point stands, I think, that focusing on making the "vigilante persona" alone equivalent to other classes seems misguided to me.

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