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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 1,355 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:
Nothing says it couldn't. Alternatively, you could grab a Ring of Evasion and avoid multiclassing.
Oh you just saved me an archetype! Fantastic :D

Stil worth dipping monk MOMS.

Have pummeling style and dragon style up at the same time :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Take a Lawful evil heavens Oracle, perhaps give him the Enlightend Philosopher Archetype to demonstrate his pursuit of knowledge.

Add a touch of insanity and he became a lich in order to not just worship the heavens/night but to become the night.

"I am the darkness, the very night responds to my commands and empowers me"

IF you wish to optimize.....

Take Lore rather than heavens for your mystery.
Pump Charisma.
Charisma instead of dex to reflex save + AC.
Noble Scion Charisma to Initiative instead of Dex.
LICH Charisma to HP instead of con.
If enlightened philospher Charisma to all saves.

Charisma is your Power stat.


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SlimGauge wrote:

That's fine, as a house rule. But since you're in the RULES forum, we're going to tell you that there is NO rule making it more difficult to identify a spell cast with Still Spell, Silent Spell and Eschew Materials.

Read what Jason Bulmahn said about it or do your own search. The search engine is your friend !

Slim thank you for the link.

It was interesting what was posted a little farther down:

What Jason also posted on facebbok (so non officla but how he would rule in a home game

"The rules are silent on this issue, meaning that it is really up to your GM. I would, personally, rule that each missing component adds +4 to the DC to identify the spell. There are, after all some tell tale markers, even if all of the components are removed. If they are all removed, I might rule it impossible to ID before the effect occurs, but it depends on the circumstances."

Honestly looks perfectly good to me and will mention his post to our group and see how they feel about it as a HOUSE RULE.


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But my point is that this feat DOES allow you to fully conceal spell casting (ar at leats require a roll) without even adding 1 to the spell level.

So if you keep your Sleight of hand maxxed, you can conceal it without having to raise the spell level by 1.


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OK, by RAW if you cast a stilled silent spell with no components there is not penalty to recognizing it and everyone gets a normal roll. Oh the spell caster (or spell like ability user) over there is casting Glib, don''t belive anythign he says until it wears off.

This has been explained as you see the actual magic of the spell or something....

Secret Signs gives you the ability that if you cast a somatic only spell they must make a perception check vs your slight of hand to notice spell casting.... How is this easier then a stilled spell. In fact stilling a spell would make it so it would be easier to spot your casting.....

Does not compute.

Full disclosure I am of the opinion (even though it has been declared invald) that a Stilled, Silent, No Material spell should not be obvious to every Tom Dick and Harry who happens to be in sight.

IMHO just as Quickening a spell means it no longer provokes, spells with still silent and no material should not be seen, especially automatically.


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Yes it would.

Divine grace is a BONUS over and above the stats.

Sidestep secret causes Charisma to be used instead of dex.

Lets take a look at an oracle/paladin with teh following stats.

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14

Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18

At this point the Oradin gets a bonus to his reflex save of +6 (4 from charisma and 2 from Dexterity) not counting whatever his class levels give him.

With your interpretation if he then took the mystery sidestep secret his reflex save bonus would DROP to 4. This is clearly not the intent nor is it the clear reading of the mystery.


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Andrew Christian wrote:
Loengrin wrote:
Sorry can't edit... So I just wanted to ask what happen to my reflexe saves if I am a Paladin 2/Oracle with Sidestep secret ?

You get your Charisma bonus and your Dexterity Bonus to reflex saves.

Since Divine Grace and Sidestep secrets do not stack, as they both are Charisma bonuses, you would not be disallowed to choose to use your Dexterity bonus in place of your Charisma bonus with Sidestep Secrets. Although since its a revelation, if you knew you were making this build, it would behoove you to not take Sidestep Secrets and not tank Dexterity as it would be redundant.

Now I realize JJ is not a rules guy, but you realize you are directly contradicting him here.

James answers this question

"James Jacobs" wrote:


Ughbash wrote:

With not being able to count a stat twice.

I am curious how that interacts with a Paladin/Oracle or Lore.

Example Paladin 3/ Oracle 3 and the Oracle has the mystery "side Step secret" which has him use his Charisma instead of dex for refelx saves.

Lets say the paladin has a dex of 12 and a charisma of 18.

What is his reflex save from stat mods.

The way I had read it before, he got +8 (Charisma from divine grace +4 and Charism INSTEAD of DEx from Side Step Secret +4.)

Now I can see it as +4 (divine grace but he can not add his charisma again) or +5 (Divine grace +4, but he can not add his charisma as base stat but instead still gets his dex). If the latter is the case the Mystery will actually make his save worse.

Divine grace grants an untyped bonus to all saving throws equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier—in this case, the ability specifically calls this bonus a bonus, and by leaving it untyped, the bonus from divine grace stacks with everything. It does not replace existing modifiers to saving throws gained from stats.

A paladin/oracle with that combination would indeed replace his Dex modifier with his Cha modifier for Reflex saves, and then when he gains divine grace, adds a bonus equal to his Cha modifier to all his saves.

It's not technically adding the ability score modifier twice, in any case.


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Some Other Guy wrote:
andreww wrote:
Some Other Guy wrote:
You can't get double bonuses to the saves. Somewhere, I can't remember where, it was stated that you can't get a stat bonus twice to the same thing.
This is highly debateable. There is a James Jacobs quote about double stacking modifiers to CMB I think which was looking at the interaction of Fury's Fall and something else. He doesnt touch other areas and in any event always stresses that he is not a rules guy. As things stand you can pretty much expect table variation.
Well, I would be incredibly surprised if a GM allowed this. having all of your saves at +20 or more by level...8 is absurd.

In fact in that same thread the example was brought up (by me) of oracle wiht the relevation of cha instead of dex and a paladin. He siad that YES they DO get Charisma twice on saves. Once as a replace and once as an add. Again caveat he is not the rule guy, but if you want to use his quotes to say you never get the same stat tiwce, please also use his quotes where he says you DO get the same stat twice.


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Bioboygamer wrote:
Marik Whiterose wrote:

Considering Quicken is a +4 spell level adjustment he would need to be able to cast 5th level spells before being able to quicken a 1st level spell.

Apparently, the bonus spell slots from having high Charisma can be used with the Quicken metamagic feat. A quickened 1st level spell is still castable by any character that can cast 1st level spells, as long as they have an open 5th level spell slot.

No, they can't.

Until he actually has regular slot of that level he does not get the bonud spells of that level.

This means as a third level sorcerer he also does not get the Second level bonus spells, or third or fourth.

Now as for his chraisma, it is at best (unless you gave him some magical item or something) 20 charisma with a +2 for sorceror purposes. That means at third levle he gest two Bonu sspells of first level.

For the +30 movement alternate racial trait, link to it or it does not exist and you are getting scammed.

A giant frogs tounge may NOT be used as a whip and femurs from skeltons have no value. If they did we would have a larger problem wiht grave robbers.

Sounds like he talks a good talk and is pulling the wool over your eyes.


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For a wizard you loose out on Arcan discoveries.

The one use I found for this was as a Sage sorceror. IT served two purposes:
1) all knowledge skils became class skills.
2) It delayed my bloodline so that my bonus spells from bloodline were higher level. (I only took a 1 level dip).


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David knott 242 wrote:

I think you forgot to throw in a rapid sequence of 5 Wish spells, unless one of the other items grants an inherent bonus of +5 or greater. These Wishes would not count against the time spent casting buffs because they would be permanent effects.

those are a Inherant bonus (as is the tome). The eldritch Heritage (ord/Abysall) is also an inherant bonus +6 so the book or wishes will not stack with it.


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Well you allow guided which is a BIG boon to moinks.. it is Paizo, but not 3.5 rather than pathfinder.


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20th level also gives the Fighter the Autoconfrom and pushes them to x4 on crits with bows.... Which makes them competitive again.


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Slacker2010 wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
Just not seeing the Evangelist love for a 20th level character (leveling up 15 to 20 maybe but at 20 no).
Did you read the "Align Class" Class feature? A Zen Archer 20 vs ZenArcher/Evangelist 20, the ZA/Evan has ALL of the abilities of a ZenArcher level 19 with boons and bonuses to boot.

Yes as a matter of fact I did.

Now this is a discussion of pure damage, so the fact a Zarcher gets better saves is immaterial.

However a Zarcher 20 has +1 to hit over a Zarcher 10/Evangelist 10 both for Bab and Flurry. So assuming that both the Zarcher and the Evangelist take Deific Obedience the Zarcher should do slightly more damage.

Now for 10 minutes of the day the Evangelist can do better when using spiritual form to boost wisdom though that does take a standard action to activate. However I am not sure that makes it worth saying Zarcher 10/Evangelsit 10 over Zarcher 20.


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Slacker2010 wrote:


@ughbash - Because the ZenArcher is a wisdom based Archer. So while your Fighter will have a WIS of 18 netting him a +4/+4 on hit/dmg, the ZenArcher will have WIS of 32 netting him a +11/+11 on hit/dmg. This vastly overshadows Weapon Training and puts them at crazy DPR on targets within 30ft.

My question was about evangelist.

Why Zen archer 10 evanagelist 10 as compared to zen archer 20.

YES, you get your third boon earlier, but if we are simply comparing final results at 20 I do not see the advantage.

In the case of a fighter 10/Evangelist 10 I thikn you would loose out signifigantly over 20 fighter.

Just not seeing the Evangelist love for a 20th level character (leveling up 15 to 20 maybe but at 20 no).


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Question: Why evangelist? Not sure the advantage of Monk 10/Evangelist 10 or even more so Fighter 10/Evangelist 10 in a comparison that goes to 20 and thus gets the boon anyways.


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Get greater eldrith heritage with Fire elemental to get +30 base speed. Requires 4 feats and a high 17? charisma.


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Mystic Theurge is a 10 level prestige class where both arcane and divine get a level of spell casting. Prior to level 20 you can not go beyond levle 10 in a 10 level prestige class.

Evangelist has the ability to give you a virtula level in a class (and does not limit it to base classes).

Would a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Evangelist 4 (class modified being MT) be legal and effectivley level 16 in both wizard and cleric.

I imagine by RAW yes, by RAI no but thought I would ask.


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Hoever they are priced for a +5 to one skill so if a custome magic item say "shoes of tingling" was made to give a +5 perception for the same price as the lenses why should the lenses only give it for sight.

By the same reason (if you allow custom magic items)adding longstrider always on to boots of elvenkind costs the same as boots of striding which only give sthe acrobatics to jumping. As a result we house ruled boots of striding to be full acrobatics. It is a carryover from 3.5 where acrobatics was jumping, balance and tumbling.


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1) RAW stack, RAI probably NOT stack. FAQ would be nice :)


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Just downloaded and read it... teach me to comment assuming it was like a regular bloodline. Sorry yes it would stack as it is morale while th eorc one is inherant.


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Aren't the +6 from eldritch heritage Orc and the +6 from Abysall both Inherant bonuses? (In other words they do not stack).


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No, they do not stack the best one takes precendence so you have a burrow speed of 15.

By hte smae token if you have a +2 enhancement str belt, and someone casts Bull strenght on you (+4 enhancement bonus) you have a +4 enhancement bonus ot str, not 6.


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You can not use acrobatics to step more then 5 ft.

You CAN use acrobatics to MOVE back more then 5' so that he will provoke closing with you, but then you would only have a standard action left rather then a full attack action.


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Core Rule Book wrote:
Feint: You can use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Chapter 8.

At 30' you are not in combat.... If you are in combat you can threaten someone and at 30' (unless you have lunge and a few whip feats) you are not threatening somone.


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For a 15 point game I would recommend AGAINST MT... Witch is a viabel substitute to combien some arcane and divine. With that said if you really want MT this is what I would do.

Peri Blooded (EMberkin) Aasimar.

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 10

Int 18 (16 +2)
wis 14
Cha 12 (10 +2)

If your Gm allows dropping stats consider lowering str and cha to get more dex and con.

Wizard 2/Seperatist Cleric of Nethys 1/MT 10
Emberkin gets a SLA of glitter dust for your level 2 arcane.
Use a domain (or inquisition) that gives you SLA for divine.


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Ipslore the Red wrote:
I recall a developer saying that you shouldn't be able to apply the same stat modifier twice. I'm fairly sure he's also taken pains to make it clear that he's not the rules guy, but I still frown on such shenanigans because I would have anyway and bandying about developer comments makes me feel more justified in having baseless opinions.

James Jacobs posted that about Fury fall and doulbe dex. I then asked about Paldin and Oracle and he said it worked.


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Elves used to get a free perception check to notice secret doors if they were wihtin 5' of them, this was taken out.

Dwarves DO get a free perception check to notice secret doors if htey are within 10 feet of htem sand it invovles stonework.

So unless the person is searching an area, or a dwarf and the door invivles stonework, (it takes a move action to search a 5' x 5' square) he would not notice the secret door even if he rolled a 100 on his quick perception check from the doorway. He is getting a general feel for the room rather then searching specific things.*

*Some people will disagree and say that the one perception should allow it with a -1 for every 10' away. I disagree, I would allow them to seach a square for secret doors from 40' away at a -4, but they would have to declare they are spending that move action searching that square.

So if a person stood in the middle of a 20 x 20 room and spun around in a circle slowly looking for secret doors I would let him make a perception check at -1 (10 feet from a wall)and it would take him 16 move actions to check the 80 feet of wall. I would not let him walk into the room make a percepption check as a move action and note three secret doors even if he had a +100 perception.


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Arguably a strenght 10 miner can bring down a wall with a heavy pick 1d6 damage.

Walls are helpless he full round Cou de gras.

Though that may make it TOO easy to bring down a wall :)


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Toppling MM gets a bad rep, but it really depends on your GM. If you at high level fight a lot of humanoids it stays valauble.

There are two common things that shut it down though.
1) Level 1 Shield spell.
2) 1500 GP item Brooch of Shielding.


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Don't underestimate the value of wands.

Cure light, bless, restoration and a few others.

Might make it worth taking craft wand over ring.

For a crafter you probably want human for the extra feat. At level 7 consider wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 (for access to both divine and arcane).

Take the trait for +2 caster level (I would apply to wizard) so you have a caster level of 5 for quialifying for feats. If your GM is very leniant you can try a race that allows early entry into MT.

Universalist with a familiar who has the valet archetype.


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For you simple is best... Str buid 2 handed weapon. Naginata is good and provides reach, Tetsubo is another solid choice (assuming you do not mind spending 1 feat on Exotic Weapon).


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Sissyl wrote:
I have played mythic for a while... 2 MR = 1 CR is b~#+$@*#. More like 1 to 1.

Why I added the comment on Practice and Theory. I have not had any practice with mythic sadly.


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Mythic is considered 2 ranks of mythic as adding 1 to the CR. So 2 ranks in mythinc is = 1 rank in level (theoretically).

Now in theory there is no difference between Theory and Practice... in Practice there is.

How much a mythic rank will help compared ot a regular level will vary based on build/class/level of character. For example a wizard gets more leveling to 15 (Bonus feat and new spell level) then he gets leveling to 16.

Question if you are considering epic 3.5 but no class above levle 20. How are you intending to work casting level? Does a Wizard 20/Loremaster 10 have a 30 or a 20 for casting level?

Using some foes from the Epic handbook you will need a higher casting level just to break SR.

If you drop anything from Epic.. I would drop Epic spell casting... while neat it is very open to abuse.

Epic can be fun to play or run (have done both) I am still trying to get the group I am with to experiment with mythic.


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Assimar (Agathion blooded) Oradin.

Life Oracle 8/Paldin 4 (the rest going into Oracle).

First leve feat Fey Foundling.

Favored class oracle choosing the 1.5 times for your channel energy mystery.

20 Point stat build.

St 14
Dx 10
Con 14 (16) +2 racial

Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16 (21) (+2 racial) +3 levels


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MagusJanus wrote:
which is that, in certain campaigns,...

That I can agree with, I misunderstood you to be saying they are never worth it.

Though Staff of Magi is faily useful in just about any campaign :)


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Artanthos wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Artanthos wrote:

The item you are looking for already exists. An Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Impact property.

Think harder.

I did.

Asking for an item that casts Strong Jaw all the time is similar to asking for an item that casts True Strike.

It's an interesting theorycraft, but should never be permitted in a game.

Not quite since once is a medium term buff and the other is a 1 round spell that lasts one hit.


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It SHOULD be simple.

To use a pearl of power to recall a Maximized fireball (using a level 6 slot) you need a level 6 pearl of power.

To cast a MAXIMIZED fireball with a rod of maximize You need a 1-3 ROD as the base slot you are using is a third level slot.

To cast a MAXIMIZED EMPOWERED Fireball with a rod of Maximize you need a 4 - 6 slot rod SINCE the Slot you are changing is a 5th level slot.

Basically you need to use a Rod Appropriate for the slot of spell you are casting after all modifications NOT COUNTING what the rod does.


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How usable a staff is and rechargeable really depends on a couple things. One is the staff itself, one is the campaign.

I think we can all agree that in a campaign wiht ample downtime, say Kingmaker or PFS, you have plenty of time to rechage your staff and it is useful.

I would also argue that if you have a staff which has the following spells Magic Missle, Shield, Mage Armor, Identify, Ray of Enfeeblement all at one charge each, it is worth using 1 of your level 1 slots to charge it. It will give you more variety in the day for a minimal cost.

By the same token if you had Shape Change, Mages Disjunction, Meteor Swarm, and Gate on a staff, it would be worth spending a 9th level slot to charge it because you had more variety available on that staff.

So the value of charging a staff depends not only on the staff itself, but also on the campaign.

I once was invovled in a home brew campaign and my sorceror intended to evetually have every arcane spell on a staff (with metamagic versions of the lower level spells). For him it would be worth keeping that staff charged.


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Holding (for a weapon) often means ready to attack with. So if you can ATTACK with that weapon then I would allow it. Grasping Tail specifies you can not WIELD a weapon so I do not think this would work.

For example a Kobold with the tail terror feat and a tail attachment (which is a weapon) could defintely use it.

For a tiefling to do such even though he has a tail, to do it by RAW would need kobold heritage and a tail attachment.


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CAHaugen wrote:
and my Barbarian Class gets 4 + Int (Minimum of 1) Skill Points, so that's a minimum of 5 per Level, so since I won't be getting up to at least an Ability Score of 12, Intelligence is out.

Actually it is (4 + int) Minimum 1 not 4 (+ int Minimum 1).

So with a 5 int you get (4 - 3) or 1 skill point per level.


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Perhaps it would be better to force someone who has taken 10 ranks into a skill to spend their next feat on either extra traits (so they can get it as a class skill) or if it is a mental skill Cosmopolitan so they can get it as a class skill.*

Would this resolve the issue for you?

Differnce between getting something for free and forceing people to get a feat to represent their training :)

*Just to be clear as a GM I would never force this.


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137ben wrote:
"Real Campaigns?" Pretty sure I recall at least a few of those where Leadership was allowed. I think one of the cohorts in a 'Real Campaign' was called Joe Biden.

Nah, cohorts are usually competent.


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Apocalypso wrote:


So, I'm trying to figure out if there's any way this is RAW. Or if its just the GM rigging the game to make sure his NPCs always win.

99.99 percent likley GM Rigging.

The ghast COULD have been a caster the entire time and you just did not realize it. His sense motive roll could have known you were baiting him to jump followed by a knowledge roll knowing about SYlphs ability.

Or the GM could have just make a mistake about how rules work.

"Never attribute to malevolence what is merely due to incompetence”


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Frank Kyle wrote:

@ Ughbash

I had Sing, Dance, Percussion as my original draft. The thing is I want both Diplomacy and Bluff. When I added PotP into my build I had to decide which to take skill points in and which to use versatile performance with.

Ughbash wrote:
Instead max out Perform Sing or Comedy or Acting (I would do comedy and then at 6 take Perform Oratory.

The way your telling me here I would not have Diplomacy until Level 6. That is crippling in my honest opinion as Diplomacy is THE best social skill. I down grade intimidate to favor Bluff. If I go my route I'm looking at having Diplomacy, Sense motive, and Bluff as social skills. You way is giving me Bluff and Intimidate....not gaining sense motive and diplomacy till 6.

Well Peacock does not really come online til level 5... I was basing this all on bluff.

You could choose Perform Oratory at 2 and perform comedy at 6. Though this would mean delaying your fly/acrobatics til 10.

That would help you more on the Diplomacy side.

As for Prodigy... whoops I ment Savant.


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If you are starting at level 2. don't waste points on bluff.

Instead max out Perform Sing or Comedy or Acting (I would do comedy and then at 6 take Perform Oratory.

Use the heck out of Versatiel Performace.

I would also recommend the human racial feature Focuse Study.

Use your level 1 Skill focus for Perform Comedy, your level 8 one for Perfrom Oratory. Sadly in PFS you will not get ot use the levle 16 one.

Also consider the racial feat Silver tounged.

Consider the trait Prodigy as oneo fyor utwo starting traits.


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Solution is rather simple.

1) Buy any feat at level 1.
2) At level two spend some gold and downtime to retrain.

Note this is also how second level characters can get Dervish Dance.


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I'd convert them to modulo 26 before adding them together. Simplifies things immensely.


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Draco18s wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

I'm fairly certain there are creatures out there with far greater than 30 Charisma.

Also, wouldn't it need to be +20 higher to get it to move all those steps? (Provided you have a means of overcoming the limitations mentioned above of course.)

+15 extra, I forgot about that.

(The first step is free, it's +5 for every additional step and there's only 5 states (4 steps))

As for things with higher than 30 CHA: there might be. If so, it's effectively a god-level deity. 30 is a pretty effective limit for "normal people"* getting higher starts getting into "bonuses that stack and probably shouldn't at some point, because now we're cheesing the system."**

*18 + 2 (race) + 6 (enchantment) + 5 (ability points) = 31.

**Such as Genius Avaricious, which is basically cheating. +4 untyped bonus to Charisma for 3000 gold. Also immunity to poisons, disease, and aging.

You left out manual/tome.

18 Base +2 Race +6 Enhancement +5 Leveling +5 Book 36 Beyond that is more esoteric (+3 age ,+2 Succubus profane gift).


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+2 Int, +2 dex, Small.

Magus or Wizard.

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