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David Bowles wrote:
Interesting. I've never seen anyone charged a move action to use a tool.
Depending on the tool, its perfectly reasonable to expect to have to use a move action to draw it. In the extreme depending on the nature of the tool, I've seen a GM charge a standard action to use it, incidental to the skill itself.
If you only focus on trained skill, this is not a bad approach. Why invest valuable ability points where they're not needed. However, remember that in core, all the expanded tricks from the Animal Archive are out (or at least they're supposed to be). That means things like flanking which is a fairly common trick for AC users, reverts back to an untrained trick at best and a DC of 25. Many GM's are going to say the same thing about other tricks like Delay and Maneuver. That makes Charisma a bit more important.
Not to mention Diplomacy is arguably the most important PFS skill other than maybe Perception. Sure, that means the chances of someone in the party being at least moderately competent at it are high, but for something so important to most scenarios, I personally would not leave it up to someone else to do it for me. YMMV
The Fox wrote:
it is the tone
Perhaps that is the crux of the issue. If anyone is reading tone into posts, they are making a mistake. Of course, I cannot speak for anyone else, but my approach to this is clinical. I have a lot of passion for PFS, but not for any specific rule (in fact there are number of them I wholly disagree with). I am interested to see how CORE is going to work out and since the decision to roll it out has already been made, I have hopes it will work and will endevour to make it so. However, I am not married to the concept and if it doesn't work, I will not force it on players I organize for, nor will I support its continuation.
The Fox wrote:
Possibly better would be "Your fears are justified and valid. There is every possibility that what you fear will come to pass. But none of us want that. We will do whatever we can to prevent that from happening. If your fears do, in fact, become the reality, then we will reverse course on this plan. We all care about the PFS community as much as you obviously do. We are here to support it, and to support you and your needs."
While not using those specific words that is exactly what we are trying to say.
After reading 1000+ posts over multiple threads and forums, the only conclusion I can come up with is that there is nothing we can say to appease the people with concerns, especially the ones who are die-hard against CORE. It seems the only solution is to let them vent and hope their fears will be assuaged when (hopefully) the program works. That doesn't mean I/we don't care about their concerns, it just means if there is nothing we can do or say to make a difference, then the best approach might be to remain quiet on the subject.
doc the grey wrote:
It doesn't address player understanding of the rules, it doesn't address ease of entry to the most difficult mechanics to comprehend for them (magic), it doesn't address dislike of certain players, it doesn't address teaching player consciousness at the table (i.e. would playing this character with this group of people/GM make the whole experience for all of us better or worse?), and it doesn't address making players feel more connected to the story or narrative of PFS than just being murder hobos for the grand lodge. I mean Core still doesn't address what the hell I'm supposed to say to new players or GMs coming into S6 but having to play scenarios where Torch is an ally even though the whole of society wants him in chains at best or in the ground at worst.
To be fair, most of those issues cannot be significantly impacted by a campaign mechanic. Learning rules, table etiquette, season to season variations are all things that require management at a grass-roots level. It is a responsibility each individual has to learn for themselves combined with mentoring and feedback from their peers. There is no magic rule that we can put in place to address personal issues and/or personality conflict between players.
The Fox wrote:
Instead of trying to prove that those who are fearful are wrong, I recommend trying to ease their fears.
The problem is, that is exactly what most of the VO's have tried to do. Give encouragement and solutions on how it could work. People post an example of their concern, and someone posts a suggestion how to overcome it. Most of us have said at least once, that we don't deny the concerns, we just think that the level of passion being attached to some of the concerns, may in fact, be unfounded, or at least over-reactive.
For those with fears how this is going to impact them, what are we supposed to do? It seems that the response to either wait and see how it works out in your area and/or to work with our local organizers for the best solution is not being received as an acceptable response. So I ask, What should we be saying? If offering possible/constructive solutions is not the answer, then what is?
There are a bazillion anecdotal scenarios that we can describe where CORE will work, won't work, kinda work, whatever. The hope is that local groups will not view this as a black and white, play or leave, situation. since the first OP starter there have been issues to overcome from party mix choices, to level coordination, etc. I think if everyone involved acts like an adult, communicates their wants/needs with the local group, solutions and compromises can be reached. IMO, this is really no different a challenge than most of the ones we encounter when organizing events. Sure it adds another challenge, but it also affords another opportunity. Please keep an open mind and work with your local organizers.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
We're not talking about the same thing. You are referring to CORE potentially dividing PLAYERS, thus taking potential players away from both campaigns. I agree that this is a possible effect and needs to be carefully managed by local organizers to reduce/eliminate its affect on their community.
OTOH, I was referring to the people who describe that CORE is taking CHARACTER options away. As I said, CORE is not taking any game mechanic options from players. Every rule that was legal yesterday is still legal today. Its just that now there is a companion campaign to PFS that has more restrictive rules. If that is not your "thing" then just play in "normal" mode. No crime, no foul.
if we aren't interested in core mode then we are wrong
Granted I have not read every post in every thread, but I have not seen much of that. Most are doing what Kevin illustrated. Offering encouragement, how to incorporate CORE into your local areas, and suggestions to the concerns posters have levied. The problem is when someone(s) continuously refutes every suggestion as if their situation is soo grievous that there is no way CORE will work, all without a shred of actual data to support it.
No one is saying that CORE will work everywhere. Hell we're not saying it'll work at all. We're saying that it needs time to be implemented so we can determine if it will work, to what extent, and what adjustments might need to be made.
At some point it becomes ridiculous when the conversation is essentially, "What if?"
Remember the structure of CORE is to minimize the campaign ruleset. First we add ISWG, then we add Dragon Empires, then we add APG because, well that's where the rest of the combat maneuvers are after all. Then we add some campaign sourcebooks because well, its not fair to play season six without technology feats, etc. A point can be made to include any/all books because of the pertinence of the material contained within, but that is not the point of CORE. If you want all the bells and whistles, we still have the standard PFS campaign.
I get that this is a volunteer job, and that the VOs have know about this longer than we have. But ignoring our concerns in this matter is only making it look worse for the campaign from my point of view.
And I would agree with you IF this was a case of a snap response. It is not. I spend hours watching/reviewing the forums after the announcement, and responding to various posters. I was getting a constant and unrelenting barrage of negative responses to my suggestions. No one's concerns were being ignored. Solutions and encouragement were being offered, but there is only so many times I'm beat my head against the "brick wall" before I stop. Where's the appreciation for the other side of the conversation? The side that didn't take a "sky is falling" approach to this topic. I guess they are permitted free reign to ignore or bash any idea that isn't their own.
Rangers are once again stuck with two-weapon fighting or archery only builds and lose access to instant enemy.
No one is stuck with anything. The standard campaign is still running. If you want all the options, don't play CORE. Nothing, not a single rule, game mechanic, ability, skill, or what have you has been removed from the game. In fact, a completely new option has been added to the game IN ADDITION to the standard campaign.
I keep hearing people saying things are being taken away and it baffles me. If McDonald's decided to add a value meal what was just the sandwich and drink, no fries, they did not take the option of fries away from you. Just order the regular value meal with fries.
Always nice to see a venture officer belittle those who don't agree with them. And you wonder why there are those that feel this is going to hurt the player base and the game.
Really? So after multiple pages throughout numerous threads both in these forums and other places like Facebook, Yahoo, etc. where I have, up to this point done nothing but try to "sell" the possible benefits of CORE, offer suggestions as to how some people can use it to their advantage, and ask them to give it chance before destroying it out-of-hand only to be met with constant derision and negativity, I'm the one that gets called out for supposed bad behavior?
and people wonder why most Venture-Officers tend to avoid the forums *sigh*
Well, in the end you can embrace the rules and options as provided and find a way to make them work for you and your local players. Or you can take a defeatist attitude, pine against them, make excuses for every possible solution others provide, and generally be a "negative Nancy." In the end, the Choice is *yours*.
Until we get a new exclusive I'm not sure I agree that there are more options for the 10 special requirement under this system.
There are more options because now you can offer a CORE special and draw both those who didn't plat it the first time as well as those who did, all for credit. Some areas have had difficulties filling enough tables to qualify to run specials because players attended GenCon or other conventions where they were offered. This leaves the local, non-traveling players at a disadvantage. Also, since everyone will be eligible for another GM credit through CORE, there are fewer excuses for those GMs who only do it for the rewards.
Well, it was a hard fight, but we managed to filling fill all outstanding GM slots. A few tables had a be cancelled along the way for various reasons, but luckily very few players were affected. We should have space for both Silverhex Chronicles and Pathfinder Adventure Card game, so we're excited about that.
Additionally, I can reveal the surprise we have been keeping secret until now. Two, count 'em two retired scenarios are being resurrected for Winter War.
On Saturday night, we will be offering #10 Blood at Dralkard Manor for character levels 4-5. And then on Sunday afternoon, we dust off #25 Hands of the Muted God for your 7-9th level PCs. Both are fully updated for the Pathfinder ruleset and include a new chronicle sheet with additional rewards. To make it even better, we have coaxed none other than our fearless leader, Mike Brock to GM these tables for us! It should be great fun so bring your applicable characters.
We did not list these events for pre-registration because the seats will be raffled off onsite to twelve lucky players. Proceeds from this raffle as well as some other little tidbits will be donated to the American Cancer Society via Relay for Life.
So see ya Friday night February 6th in Champaign Illinois for WINTER WAR!
Venues, table time/space and players can be a finite resource.
Only if you let them be. In all but the worst circumstances, there are areas to tap for more/new players. There are venues, often nontraditional, that can be leveraged. No offense, but in most cases these are just excuses levied by those that have determined their level of time investment is adequate and won't or (more likely) can't commit more time to the hobby. But, that does not mean others cannot pick up the reins. Local areas are only as successful (or not) as their local players want to be.
Which could be very bad for that individual player.
Perhaps, but I'm guessing the number of players who are going to experience a catastrophic disaster in their area are very few and far between. As I said before, you cannot please all the people all the time.
Then he asks for high tier and doesn't get it most of the time but will probably get it sometime
And he asks for non-CORE and doesn't get it much of the time, but will probably get it some of the time. I'm sure his region will reach a balance.
Another thing I thought of and don't recall seeing brought up is that this means there are twice as many options for specials since they can be offered both CORE and non-CORE. Areas where a lot of, but not all players, have already played previous season specials may benefit from being able to offer them again in CORE format and everyone can play AND GM for credit. As a bonus, GMs actively trying to earn their 5th star, now have more options to fulfill the 10-special requirement.
If the new option doesn't bring in substantially more players
Who is to say what "substantially" is? What if it just creates more play with roughly the same player-base? Would that be a fail? With all the moving parts, how can you determine with any level of certainty that CORE is responsible for bringing more players in? Just because a new player is reported, doesn't mean the reason they played is because of the CORE rules.
Please please please please let core characters sit at the same table as non-core characters without losing there core only status.
I disagree. Reporting is not the driving issue here. If a player with a CORE character is sitting at a mixed table, s/he gets to benefit directly or indirectly from non-CORE content through their interactions with the non-CORE characters at the table. That is not what CORE is about.
Balderdash. You do not have to be a Venture-Officer to organize games. If there isn't enough CORE, organize more. If there isn't enough non-CORE, organize more. Simple, and I'm sure that 99% of the VOs out there would appreciate more organizers/coordinators.
Besides, its always been about what is in the best interest of the region, not an individual player. What if he prefers high-tier and the local organizers/players prefer low-tier. OR maybe he likes the epic nature of adventure paths, but no one else wants to play them. It's just another bullet in the arsenal of organizers to try and muster up more options for players. The more options their are, the more players we can appease. Will everyone get everything they want every time? Of course not, but there is waaay too much "the sky is falling" regarding CORE and AFAIK we haven't even had a single event occur yet.
Do I just tell the player that the Golarion universe renders the action an impossibility?
Completely up to you. There are a plethora of ambiguities in the rules left to the GM to adjudicate. If you simply want to say, "no, you can't do that" it is certainly within your right. If you choose to be a more inventive GM and allow the player some imaginative flexibility, more power to ya. Losing Dirty Trick is both a bane and a boon. While the player no longer has a specific rule to define their custom action/s, you are no longer bound to strictly apply the rule as it exists outside of CORE. The important thing will be to apply your best judgement in such as way as to be as inclusive as possible without letting the player get away with murder.
OTOH, as the GM, you are still empowered to use all the rules in all the books at your disposal. So if to make things easier, you want to apply the mechanics for Dirty Trick to the player's actions as an aid in adjudicating the results, go for it.
Laundry list of complaints
Ya know, you're right. CORE is an absolutely terrible idea and you shouldn't play it. In fact, no one should play it. Mike should immediately repeal CORE because its not what YOU want.
I'm sorry, but I had to vent a bit. Relax Undone, it'll be okay. As I said in the other thread, CORE is going to be a great option for some regions. Let them use it to improve their game. If it doesn't work for you or your area, then just don't use it. Its no different than past complaints. Don't like gunslinger? Don't play one. Don't like modules? Don't play them. Don't like conventions? Don't go. Easy-peasy. There are compromises and solutions to be had so everyone can fun :-D
I'm intrigued and curious what the ultimate purpose of the core campaign is?
Mike explains that in the opening sentence,
As the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign and the Pathfinder RPG itself has developed over the last several years, players have expressed increasing concerns about the availability of replay, new players being overwhelmed or overshadowed by over-optimized characters, Chronicle sheet rewards not having much meaning, and other concerns related to the sheer amount of information and options available to PFS players.
Like any rule/s it is not going to do everything for everyone. Some players will argue that CORE does not address any of the topics it claims to solve, while others will tell you it not only resolves those, but others as well. Only your local group/s can decide how best to use this new option to improve and enhance their gameplay.
Remember, this is just another OPTION for you. If it doesn't work for your local group, don't use it. CORE is no different than running modules, adventure paths, older scenarios, whatever. The local groups have complete control over what is/not running in their area. And assuming conventions are organized with even a modicum of skill, the events will be clearly identifiable as CORE or not. You should have [near]complete control over what you play and/or GM.
The funny thing is the people who can snap-judge a knee-jerk reaction to the proposal before the ink is even dry and declare CORE a complete failure without so much as a "we'll see" or a "I'll give it a try."
I hear a lot of "What ifs"...
The only two "real" complaints I've heard involved the challenge of scheduling CORE vs. PFS and elitism (or whatever you want to call it).
To those concerned with the former, its just another thing. What's the big deal? With all the factors an organizer has to weigh when scheduling events, this is just another minor challenge. The key is communication. Keep your players informed and other than the occasional hiccup, you'll be fine.
In regards to the latter, if think this is going to be any bigger blip in the forums than any other "argument" topic, I think you've been stricken with the "newest thing" disease. Will there be some people who find fault with this new campaign? Absolutely. Are they going to be any more disruptive than those who already incessantly complain about aspects of the existing campaign? Nope.
Nothing is going to please all the players, all the time
Since we have tables with no players signed up, we have decided to start making adjustments to the schedule in order to offer more of what players want. In that vein, a few tables have been cancelled and replaced with The Pathfinder Adventure Card Game and The Silverhex Chronicles. If you are a player and have an open slot, consider joining these games. Both are sanctioned for organized play and will include chronicles.
Obviously, this means we need some GMs for those events. So, if you're interested, please let me know.
Anyone who is a new or casual player is unlikely to peruse the forums and therefore will not gain anything from random players suggesting they will be a point of contact for anyone wanting suggestions/feedback on the sources of mature content.
Since this is a PFS forum concerning PFS material, it would seem that the easiest, most reasonable solution, if one is even required, would be to add a line or two to the Guide for Organized Play. Something to the effect that some material may not be suitable for younger
There is also the issue that occurred when the PMRC forced the music industry to add warning labels to albums back in the 80's to denote adult content. It had the opposite effect and actually drew more attention to the "risque" material and increased consumption by those it was created to protect. In that vein, adding warning labels to gaming material might actually improve sales. Although, I would posit that sales increases based on that meme would not be the kind Paizo would want to get excited about.
Avatar, notice the emphasis on "no matter what". There is nothing wrong with digital devices as I have said now twice, the problem is when the GM wants to audit something, but does not want the responsibility/risk inherent with handling someone else's digital device. There a plenty of options to work through the issue, but I don't need to list them. The bottom line is that both the GM and the player can be accommodating to the other and compromise so the game can continue. If either side is being overly obstinate, then yes, they are BadWrongFun
IMO, if a GM bans a player simply because they don't have a printed copy of their character sheet, that is bad GMing. OTOH, if a player is being a jerk about only using their digital device no matter what, I have no sympathy for them either.
What happened to people just being accommodating to each other and trying to just make the gaming experience fun? Honestly, this incessant need to have every single nuance of the game governed by rules is exhausting and tends to drive players away.
People, you're missing the "spirit" of this (and many other) discussions. Stop trying to one-up each other. There is nothing wrong with electronic devices, nor is there anything wrong with strictly paper. The issue is having some consideration for the other person, be it the GM or player, and having a solution that works for both without burdening either or the other players at the table. When you force a discussion like this to Brock's level, he has to make a ruling that becomes binding. Remember that in the future before you escalate an issue. You may not like the ruling he makes.
Only six more weeks and GM volunteers are moving right along. Roughly half of the tables have been claimed, but many more need a judge. Check out the schedule and let me know (by email) what you'd like to GM before someone snags your preferred choices. Remember, run 2+ tables and get your convention badge for free
All PFS events are now visible on the site so you can start to formulate games you wish to play. I have been receiving a steady stream of GM volunteers. If you wish to volunteer, be sure to check the GM name. If it is mine, that slot is still looking for a GM. If the name is something other, it has already been assigned. Open registration for players should start soon
I'm sorry to say, and I'm sure some will take offense, but if you have reached 3rd level or higher and still have not obtained a wayfinder, I don't have a lot of sympathy for failing this mission. The cost is minimal (certainly less than "wasted" expendable resources I've seen), but more importantly, it is a BADGE OF OFFICE, something that most members are expected to possess. Heck we offer a re-playable scenario such that you can get one for free or for minimum expense (250gp or 1 PA).
Sure, we can argue that the role-playing aspect of PFS is minimal compared to non-organized play, but to completely ignore it and turn the game into nothing more than a scale where every decision is an effort to weigh tangible benefits (power level) vs. cost defeats an integral part of the game. I just cannot fathom entire groups of characters that can be active members of the society, who have sworn allegiance to the tenets, "Explore, Report, Cooperate," and at the same time say they have absolutely no reason to own a wayfinder. Sorry if that sounds like an accusation of "BadWrongFun," guess I'm just a grognard.
Consider it a one-time occurrence of union dues :-D
Just to clarify for those interested, I will not chose your events. If you wish to volunteer, please select what you want to do and let me know. My primary goal is that everyone have fun. I don't want anyone to volunteer for more (or less) than they are comfortable. I want you to play or volunteer to do what YOU want to do, not what I want you to do.
Thanks and see you there!
The schedule has been submitted to Winter War. Some of the events are still awaiting approval, but many are approved and starting to pop up in the event listings. There were a few minor changes from my original posting (above) to accommodate some conflicts. See below for the current schedule as submitted.
Open registration is not yet open, but if you are interested in GMing events, send me an email. I am assigning the GMs to their tables as requested and they will be reflected in the Winter War listings. Once all the events are visible, you can see which events are still pending a GM and which are filled. GM who volunteer for 2 (or more) events will receive their convention badge for free (although you still need to purchase tickets for any events you intend to play).
In addition to the scenarios, I hope to offer a table of Silverhex Chronicles in every slot, as well as demos of both the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game (PACG) and the Pathfinder RPG, all dependent on getting volunteers to cover those offerings. Additionally, I hope to have a table available for those who wish to play the PACG for credit in organized play (space permitting).
Friday 2/6 2-6pm
Friday 2/6 7-11pm
Saturday 2/7 9am-1pm
Saturday 2/7 3-7pm
Saturday 2/7 8-midnight
Sunday 2/8 9am-1pm
Sunday 2/8 2-6pm
Yes, the intention is that line only applies to seasons 0-3. As mentioned above, later seasons have the 4 player adjustments so if your APL is between sub-tiers, with four players you must play down (no adjustments), with 5-7 players you must play up with a reduced (4 player) challenge. There is no provision for exceptions in seasons 4 or later.
In season 0-3 the intention is similar, but slightly different because there are no four-player adjustments. If you are between sub-tiers with 4-5 players, you must play down. If you are between sub-tiers with 6-7 players, you must play up. However, there is a provision for an exception. If there are no character levels actually in the higher sub-tier you may choose to play down. This helps to prevent what Nosig indicated where 4 level threes and 2 level twos (APL 2.67, rounded to 3) are forced to play in a sub-tier 4-5 where the encounters could be as high as CR8.
Rounding can have a huge impact on this especially with APLs of X.5
Once again we welcome you to join us for three full days of awesome gaming at Winter War 42 in Champaign, Illinois on 6-8 February 2015. The convention offers miniature/historical wargamming, an extensive library of board games, various collectable card games, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Role-playing games, etc. and of course plenty of Pathfinder Society events. There is also a silent auction and raffle on Saturday.
The schedule is not yet published, but all player registrations must be made through the official Winter War website, date/time to be announced soon. Volunteers/GMs will be accepted soon as well, so watch for updates.
Until then, here is the initial schedule of events:
Friday 2/6 2-6pm
Friday 2/6 7-11pm
Saturday 2/7 9am-1pm
Saturday 2/7 3-7pm
Saturday 2/7 8-midnight
Sunday 2/8 9am-1pm
Sunday 2/8 2-6pm