TwiceBorn's page

Another thought on the major power brokers of Greyhawk.

Consider how World War I got started. Forgive me if I'm a little rusty on exact details.
Serbian nationals assassinated the Emperor of Austria Hungary. A chain reaction brought about by Germany and other countries' numerous mutual defense pacts meant that within a short time thereafter Germany was at war with dang near half the world. If the real heavy hitters in Greyhawk started choosing sides and operating overtly, a similar situation could occur, embroiling the whole of Greyhawk in a mystical and/or deitical and/or multidimensional conflagration the scope of which would make the Age of Worms look like a crop infestation by boll weevils.
As such, all the deities and all the Tensers, Iuz's, Demogorgons, Zagygs, and Mordenkainens are content to sit this one out, because noone wants to be the first one on the dance floor. Let the detante stand. Let the plebeians take care of the pest control.
Which is essentially what Twice Born said above....
So why is Demogorgon doing his thing now? Just as Hitler was emboldened by the League of Nations' utter lack of concern for Mussolini's marching into Ethiopia, so Demogorgon is impressed that Kyuss pulled all the crap he pulled and NOT ONE DEITY LIFTED A FINGER TO INTERCEDE. Maybe a heal spell here, a resurrection there, but no direct involvement. A bunch of scraggly player characters had to do the job on Kyuss. Demogorgon's too tough and too clever and too arrogant for those pleebs, or so he thinks. And the metaphysical heirarchy will just sit back twiddling its collective thumbs while Demogorgon turns all the sentients on Oerth into slavering maniacs.

Good points, Heathansson.

A few other points to add to my list...

1) Why Tenser is acting like nothing more than the party "librarian":

Well, consider this. The guy must be getting on in years (I'm thinking he must be at least in his mid-sixties and quite possibly in his 70s, if not older. Even magic will not preserve him forever, unless he becomes a lich (which seems doubtful). So I view Tenser kind of like a "Yoda figure" in Greyhawk. Yes, he is wise, good, and powerful... but too old to go racing around the Flanaess fighting giants, dragons, and evil demi-gods. Did Yoda tag along with Luke at the end of "The Empire Strikes Back" to confront Vader? No... he trained Luke, gave him advice, etc., which is what Tenser is doing. He's done his time on the front lines. You should think of him as more than 21st level wizard with an arsenal of spells... think of Tenser the person, not Tenser the stat block.

2) The rest of the circle of EightL

Let's not forget that Mordenkainen and other key members of the Circle of Eight are "true neutral", and their true interests in relation to the AoW may be unclear, at best (Mordenkainen has been accused of being motivated purely by self-interest)... perhaps they (and Iuz, among others) are pulling strings from the shadows to assist the PCs (e.g., by revealing helpful clues, etc.), without overtly revealing their involvement? This would be especially logical for powerful true neutral NPCs who strive to maintain the "Balance," and don't want to be seen favouring one side over the other... which might cause potential problems at the bargaining table or attract unwanted enemies in the future!

3) Why other high level NPC heroes don't get involved:

Most of them rule kingdoms or other important institutions/organizations. Their days of riding off on quests to distant lands are over. If the apocalyptic evil comes to their doorstep, they will rally to fight against it. If it doesn't, they will wait and see. How many years did the US wait before getting involved in WWII? What had to happen before the US got involved? How many countries attempted to prevent the genocide in Rwanda? And what about Darfur today?Involvement is predicated on self-interest (in some cases, this = selfishness)and the perceived severity and immediacy of the threat. Again, the slow reaction of various good heroes and nations is compounded by the slow rate of (primarily non-magical)communication, the extent to which the various groups actually believe in the prophecy of the AoW (and the extent to which they believe it will actually affect them), and the strength of the relationship between the parties sending and receiving the call for help. Using Rwanda once again as an example... we live in an age where the internet and telephone make it possible to learn about atrocities within hours of them happening... but still, little was done to stop the catastrophe by the world powers. Did any high level NPC national leader even bother to go to Rwanda? No, not one... Why should powerful good NPCs in the Flanaess care about a series of scattered events happening in backwaters like the Bandit Kingdoms and the Amedio Jungle? You get the picture... the PCs are the only ones who are truly in the know (or know enough about the big picture to understand the severity of the AoW). (As an aside, some may not view the events in Rwanda and Darfur as the equivalent of a global apocalypse, but I don't want to get into a real world political debate here).

4) Who are the PCs, really?

Other threads have complained that the AoW takes characters from levels 1-20 within the span of 2-3 years of game time, and I agree that's ridiculous... unless there is something truly special about the characters. If ever I do run the AoW, I might toy with the idea that the PCs actually carry the essence of some ancient, long dead heroes, that the souls of the latter are being reborn in the former... and as they progress in experience, they gradually rediscover "skills and knowledge long forgotten", etc., until they are on a par in terms of abilities and other characteristics with those ancient heroes. Perhaps Tenser and Circle of Eight recogize the PCs for what they really are, and therefore let them take care of the AoW? Perhaps some missing/forgotten element of the prophecy foretold the return of these ancient, mythical heroes? This would help explain why they could progress in levels so quickly, and would explain why high level NPCs are standing aside and letting the PCs do the job...

I hope the above points provide plausible explanations as to why powerful good NPCs (and Iuz) are not doing anything (visibly, anyway) about the AoW, and why there is plenty of opportunity for PCs to leave their mark in the AoW, and in the Greyhawk campaign more generally.

A few points...

1. On the Greyhawk cosmology, and why the gods don't do anything to stop the AoW:

a) the gods of Greyhawk who do not dwell on the Prime Material plane (i.e., Oerth) are bound by a pact of non-intervention, which forbids them from intervening directly in events that occur on Oerth (I'm at work right now, but I believe this was stated in the Atlas of the Flanaess, in the "From the Ashes" boxed set). For any god to do so would risk open war with other gods, which could have results that would be just as apocalyptic as the AoW... that being the case, let the mortals save themselves--they were, after all, granted free will and the potential to alter the destiny of the world.

While the gods of Greyhawk might be saddened to lose the Oerth and their followers to the AoW, they may derive their energies from a plethora of alternate Oerths (not just one), as per Michael Moorcock's concept of the multiverse, or may even have followers on other prime material worlds (perhaps they are known by different names there), so the loss of the Flanaess might have only a modest effect on their divine powers.

That essentially leaves Iuz (and perhaps a handful of demigods or quasi-deities on Oerth to counter the AoW). As stated in a previous post, Iuz was pretty badly shaken by Vecna in the not so distant past. The quasi deities (Keoghtom, etc.) are likely out roaming the planes and have only a modest interest in or awareness of the goings-on in the Flanaess. Zagyg is mad, etc. You get the picture.

I see some really nasty stuff happening on our own Earth, but I have yet to see proof that some divine entity cares enough about our situation to do something about it... that, or, like the gods of Greyhawk, they've decided to let mortals solve their own problems and take control of their own destiny (granted, our real life problems do not seem to be of divine origin... although some might attribute them to "Satan"). Aside from that, I don't think gods are necessarily ominiscient--they might not realize the extent to which Oerth is in dire peril. The Greek gods were notorious for making big blunders, for their lack of ominiscience, and for generally acting just like humans.

2. Why does Tenser not do anything about the impending apocalypse?

As others have stated, Tenser has been burned repeatedly. Perhaps he is not convinced that the AoW will be as bad as the prophecies make it out to be, or that it will even happen (this is totally hypothetical--I do NOT have my AoW stuff at hand at the moment and have not read it that closely to begin with). How many times have religious groups come knocking on my door, prediciting the end of the world by the end of the year? Countless. And they didn't get me in a panic or otherwise doing something to help counter their prophecies. Perhaps Tenser is in the same situation (again, I don't have my materials, I may be way off base here). He'll provide some guidance and suggestions to apparently sincere do gooders, but aside from that...

OR, perhaps some other factors are at work (hostages? high level spells/curses???, etc.), which are preventing Tenser and other key good guys from getting involved (and from even explaining why they can't get involved... simply saying "I cannot help you, and I cannot tell you why" might have your PCs truly wonder what's going on, and they need never know the truth).

3. Getting in touch with high level good NPCs to avert the AoW:

a) The Circle of Eight notwithstanding, this assumes that all of these high level good guys (and they are few) know each other and are in regular contact (even so-called "good" people may have their rivalries and refuse to cooperate with one another). The Flanaess is roughly the size of the US (if I remember correctly), there are dozens of countries, and no telephone or internet... even with magic, I'm not convinced that word necessarily travels as a fast as you might believe (my Greyhawk campaign is quite low magic), even when a catatastrophe is at hand. Perhaps NPC Z is away on a quest when the magical message reaches his Tower... I don't know...

b) If your PCs do successfully contact other good, high level NPCs, perhaps the latter dismiss the PCs as flakes, or perhaps they take their word seriously and do get involved. Getting in touch with them might prove to be a time consuming endeavour in itself, something they might not wish to gamble on. Yet if they did manage to contact some powerful good folk, this might produce a variety of scenarios:

. the good NPCs kick Kyuss's butt, and save the world on behalf of your PCs -- end of campaign;

. the good NPCs get involved, but Kyuss or his minions kill them all -- now it's really up to the PCs to save the world! (a great way to really shake up the world, and eliminate high level NPCs, if you don't like their presence in the game world);

. the PCs go against Kyuss on their own and get killed -- and if you don't want high level NPCs mopping up after them successfully, then either the high level NPCs don't show up on time to save the day, or they too are killed by Kyuss, and the AoW comes to pass (why shouldn't it? why can't evil win?... that might make for a really cool campaign--life after the AoW!)

All this to say, the presence of high level NPCs does not take away from the key role of PCs in the campaign... and the fact that high level NPCs should not be taken as fool-proof safety net.

However you want to look at it, you can always find an explanation for why high level NPCs don't get involved other than "they are too busy with bigger things." Use your imagination, it's what the game is all about.

And for the record, I agree that APs should be limited to scenarios that affect the fate of nations/regions, and not the entire world, especially if one is neither interested in running a post-apocalypse campaign, or in having the world saved by powerful NPCs when the PCs fail. This definitely "cheapens" the campaign.

I hope this was of use to the original poster, and to the others involved in the debate. I hate nothing more than turning off potential Greyhawk players through rudeness and bickering.

I'm a wee bit new to the history of Greyhawk. All this great stuff on the message boards and Eric's obvious love of the setting got me curious so I bought a few pdf's off the paizo web site. After reading just the smallest bit of Oerth's History it's obvious that Iuz would be a wee bit jealous about another god (i.e. Kyuss and his armies) on the scene. This got me thinking, wouldn't Iuz be a potential ally to the PC's. I mean, Kyuss seems bad and all; but, there is another bad god that may not want the competion.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
C.

Welcome to Greyhawk, it's a great setting and I really hope you enjoy it!

Iuz has had a tough time dealing with rival, evil gods on Oerth, lately. He supposedly helped banish Vecna during the latter's bid for world domination and supreme overgodhood (see WGA4, Vecna Lives!) around 581CY, and a few years later was duped by Vecna and temporarily absorbed into the latter while the Big V made an attempt to become supreme god of the multiverse (see Die Vecna Die!). So perhaps Iuz has had his fill of battling rival evil gods (at least openly) for the time being... or is it possible that he is ignorant about the whole AoW thing, for some reason?

Although I have all the AoW issues, I haven't read the actual adventures yet (my current campaign is nowhere near the AoW on the Greyhawk timeline)... but if you find a way to incorporate agents of Iuz into the plot... go for it!

Great Green God wrote:

You gotta fight for your right to party,
GGG

So subtle, Matt....especially the Twisted Sister quote....so subtle....

Dude, that's the Beastie Boys, not Twisted Sister! ;-)

The Demonomicon articles will continue to do what they do; from the outset we designed these articles to support the Fiendish Codex, and vice-versa. Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

Wow, quick reply! Thanks, James!

And maybe it doesn't always have to be a single overarching conspiracy that begins to manifest itself in adventure #1. Dungeon could get the best of both worlds by designing a campaign that has two six adventure segments, with the hooks for the second half being presented mostly in the last two adventures of the first segment, and a suitably culminating confrontation at the end of adventure #6 that will make the campaign feel finished if that's where the group wants to end it. This way either segment can be used as a stand-alone by the DM. If dungeon published several other adventures that could be inserted as side-quests for the main path during that time (they don't have to be specifically designed as such, just add a sidebar giving the DM a couple of ideas how to adapt it), and put a sidebar in each adventure for how to scale back the experience progression for those who want a slower, richer, less deadly campaign, both sets of customers would be happy.

Just some suggestions--I know sidebars take up valuable space, and most experienced DMs can figure these things out on their own with little trouble, but part of Dungeon's raison d'etre is to not make the DM have to think too hard and to help inexperienced DMs present fun adventures. At the least, though, some adventure paths ought to be designed with more moments where a pause in the action can be easily inserted without disrupting the realism of the plot. This makes it easier to drop in urban roleplaying sessions and sidequests as well as making it possible to play a wizard or other character who needs time to study and make magic items. With AoW, the plot carries such urgency that it's hard to justify much downtime, especially after the Prince of Redhand.

Great suggestions, Peruhain.

I saw something similar mentioned in another thread, and thought I might make a good thread unto itself. A dilemma I and others have noticed is that it is hard to create a 1st to epic level campaign that does not involve saving the world, defeating some demon prince or similar such mega plot. These are fun, but can become repetitive. This of course would be easily solved with less lengthy Adventure Paths, 1st to 10th level perhaps. I though am a huge fan of the longer campaigns. Some of my favorite games were those that lasted for years. So, what I propose, and submit for consideration, is the concept of a slower paced 10 level campaign. The basic rewards would be reduced enough that each level of advancement would require two or three levels to attain.

I imagine campaigns executed in this manner to be similar to novels that I enjoy reading. The Robert Jordan novels for example. Many books have gone by and the character developement pacing is such that just now they are beginning to reach the higher levels.

With a campaign that takes just as long but ends with the characters being only 10th or 11th level, a whole slew of possible plots are openned up to us. The local evil baron or shady organization can be as much a threat to the party as Kyuss or Adimarchus were to the higher level groups. Find the secret recipe to cure the plague that threatens to kill everyone in their home town. An entire campaign that takes place in a town where the town itself might not face the risk of being destroyed, but perhaps the souls of its citizens.

Let me know what you think.

Tam

I couldn't agree with you more, and was about to start a thread on the same subject.

On the one hand, I deeply appreciate the work that Erik and crew have put into the mag and the adventure paths, and I tink Dungeon currently is the best it's ever been. On the down side, I must confess that I'm sick of plots involving evil cultists/outsiders who will take over or destroy the world if the PCs don't stop them.

How many times have the Flanaess faced this scenario over the past 20-25 years of game time?

1. Lolth got a foothold on Oerth and had the city of Isivin encapsulated in some black "Abyssal bubble," and if the characters failed in their quest, she would pull Oerth into the Abyss (GDQ 1-7).

2. A few years later (if that), Vecna threatens to block off the power of all of Oerth's gods in his bid to become supreme god of the world, effectively denying their followers all spellcasting ability if the party cannot stop him, and ushering in an age of darkness in the Flanaess... (WGA4).

3. The Shackled City Adventure Path... the Cagewrights and the demodands want to drag Oerth into Carceri.

4. A year or so later, cultists are on the verge of awakening the worm god, Kyuss... should the PCs fail to stop this, it will be hell on Oerth (Age of Worms AP).

5. Savage Tide AP: now Demogorgon is going to unleash this energy across the Flanaess which will transform everyone into frenzied cannibals... unless the PCs can save the day (and go from level 1 to 20 in the space of 3 game years--usually by the age of 20 for a human, if you are using the starting ages in the PHB).

I'm probably missing some here, but you get the point... the Flanaess have been on the brink of total annihilation at least 5 times in the past 20 years... which makes good competition for Dragonlance, I guess.

Has anyone played one of the campaigns where the characters failed??? I'd be interested to know how that went (I think it might be cool).

I prefer plots where if the character's fail, something significant does happen (perhaps only at the national or regional level), but the "end of the world" is not about to occur as a result of their failure. Yes, I know, it's my choice to run or not to run these campaigns, or to adapt them as I will (I'm currently preparing a heavily altered version of Vecna Lives, which, given how infrequently my group gets together, probably never will be played). But still, I would like to see a bit more originality where the stakes of a story arc are concerned.

But then again, perhaps my players and I are a minority, in the sense that we don't get care to amass mega powers, soar to high levels, and save the entire world at the end of every campaign... and we're the problem, not the AP writers.

All this to say, yes, I would welcome a level 1-10 AP with more character/setting development and adventures played between levels. I wish this question had been part of the online survey!

Although creating a spell in which a summoned creature can grapple and pull things across dimensions would be cool. But, you'd have to word the description right so that you avoid the potential pitfalls listed by Jeremy above. Or make it so high level/dangerous that normal plane shifting is, by far, more preferable. You could also just make a creature, possibly an ooze (Plane Ooze? Dimension Ooze?) that has this as a special ability, and that might make for a fun encounter or two.

I never really considered the difference between the effects of monster summoning spells and plane shifting for the simple reason that I have only played/DMed very sporadically over the years, and have never had a party make it beyond level 3! And no, it isn't because I'm a murderous DM... it's only because life/work/studies always seem to pull our group in different directions, so every campaign comes to an abrupt and untimely end, and by the time we're ready topick up again, a new edition of the game has been released (I started DMing with the old red box about 20 years ago)! All that just to say that I never read far ahead in the rule books, especially where high level spells are concerned, so I never even read about plane shifting until now (my campaigns also tend to be low magic)... so I do appreciate the input of the posters on this thread.

For now, I'll just stick to the 2nd level kobold sorcerer summoning the standard fiendish monstrous scorpions, spiders, dire rats, etc., against the 1st level party, no sense in increasing the danger level with the threat of being dragged back through a portal.

Hi Erik and crew,

Just wondering what the fate of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv series in Dragon will be, given the impending release of the Fiendish Codex? It seems that all the demons described in the Demonomicon articles made it into the book... will we be seeing more Demonomicon articles in Dragon?

I'm looking forward to the book, and have really enjoyed the article series.

Thanks for your time.

One expects that sort of thing to be in the Spell Description. Generally speaking if a spell or other ability has a side effect that banishes you to The Nine Hells for all eternity there is some kind of a warning or statement to that effect.

While there are definitly gaps in the RAW they are not usually mamoth holes that one can drive an 18 wheeler through. The rule writers did not simply forget to mention that the characters get plane shifted. It was never there in the first place.

Imagine how powerful that spell would be if it was able to drag people to other planes. You'd use it to travel to these other planes on the cheep (I summon a Unicorn and she jumps on top of me - then we go to paradise) or to drag creatures away. I mean the grappling swarm of summoned monsters meant to drag a Great Wyrm to another Plane (any plane will do as long as the terrifying beast vanishes and leaves its horde here for us to loot).

I'd be careful about making such rulings as a DM. Keep in mind that once you establish that something works like X in your campaign your players will want it to keep working that way for them too. No need to make Monster Summoning I such a powerful spell without careful thought.

Good point, Jeremy. I hadn't thought that far ahead, possibly because my games tend to be low magic and monster summonings are fairly rare. My group consists of fairly inexperienced players with level 1 characters (and this will be the first time I DM 3.0/3.5), including only one arcane caster (who thus far is focussing primarily on comprehend languages and divinations), so that may be why I hadn't considered the potential for abuse.

But I'm definitely going to follow the logic you and Saern presented, it makes sense... And although the possibility of dragging PCs to another plane would have been great for dramatic effect, it definitely would be a rather extreme threat for a group of 1st level characters to face!

Thanks again to you both for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.

No, that would require a Plane Shift-like ability. The creature would simply dissappear- unravel into fog, blink out of existence, be wrenched through a glowing portal, however you describe it, the summond creature would go and would not take the grappled character with him. That's also the case in other situations- say if one were grappling with a demon and a cleric ally of yours cast banishment on the demon. You don't get wrenched back to the Abyss with your foe.

Thanks Saern... and I suspect my players would want to thank you too, as my instinct would have been to rule the opposite.

Hi folks,

Just wondering... if at the end of the duration of a Summon Monster spell, a summoned creature is in a grapple with a character, would that character be dragged back to the creature's home plane?

For example, let's say that a fiendish monstrous scorpion has won an opposed grapple check and has a halfing in one of its claws when the spell duration expires... will the halfling automatically be dragged back to the creature's home plane? Would the halfling be entitled some sort of saving throw?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions... and if there's an "official ruling" on this question that I missed, I would be grateful if you would point me in the right direction!

Cheers!

I can imagine an evil bard having a freaky look and musical style that's way out in left field -- think of him/her as the Marilyn Manson, King Diamond, Ozzy Osbourne or other goth/industrial/metal singer of the middle ages (no, I'm not suggesting he actually play electric guitar--I'm going for image, atmosphere, and overall effect rather than a specific sound). His music/art would be positively shocking to mainstream (presumably conservative) society, and would inspire legions of discontented people (mainly youths, or members of a particularly "oppressed" ethnic background or social class eager to strike back violently at their "oppressors"?). The bard might even make use of certain drugs in order to perform or gain the inspiration to write his songs, and might even become an addict (see the BoVD for rules on addictions). He would use his high charisma to seduce people (throughout this post, it should be evident that "he" could be substituted with "she").

There would be warnings about the music causing "possession", "thought control," "addictions" and even "suicide" among its listeners... in some cases, the warnings might even be justified. Some listeners would become fanatics, and the bard's following would take the form of a cult. His music might even be divinely inspired -- and he might be the demon/god's herald on earth. Those who attend his shows might go into a frenzy, inciting riots, destroying property, etc. His concerts would be banned, the authorities would seek to arrest him, etc. Anyway, just an idea...

As an aside, it's worth noting that in certain folk tales (and religious traditions), fiddlers are said to be possessed by the devil, music itself is sometimes considered sinful or satanic, and certain classical music pieces ("Carmina Burana") reputedly have satanic associations (this piece used to play when Ozzy Osbourne would take the stage in the early '80s).

Hmmm... looks like I've just created a NPC for my own campaign!

One should also consider the existence of humanoid bards -- I don't think I've ever seen one in print. I'm thinking that monstrous orc (or is it an uruk-hai) that's howling and urging the orcish legion onward at Helm's Deep in "The Two Towers" could have made a good bard -- add a war drum to the howling/chanting, and you've got music that will launch the troops into a killing frenzy!

Yes, evil bards have so much untapped potential...

I strongly agree with the ideas of txwad and Craig Clark. To add my own two cents, however, I don't like the idea of a settlement the size of a city having been unknown for so long and then making a sudden appearance on a map (compare the Dungeon Greyhawk map vs. previous Greyhawk maps) and becoming recognized out of the blue as a city with major political and economic influence.

Potential solution (this is just coming off the top of my head, I haven't taken much time to think about it, but it would build on what txwad and Craig Clark suggested above regarding the Suloise origins of Sasserine): until the time of the Greyhawk wars, Sasserine was a little known town/outpost that traded almost exclusively with the Sea Princes. During the Greyhawk Wars and in the years when the Brotherood had the tighest grip on the Hold, "pirates" (or what have you) would smuggle for exhorbitant fees people seeking to flee the lands of the Sea Princes and the Scarlet Brotherhood. Their destination: Sasserine. Hundreds of people (perhaps even thousands?) may have been smuggled in this way. The Scarlet Brotherhood may have been aware of some of these occurrences, but did little to stop them (if I recall correctly, some historians believe the Nazis were "easier" and occasionally turned a blind eye on Danes who smuggled Jews to Sweden... but I don't want to get into a historical debate, and certainly don't intend to offend anyone... just making a comparison).

With the resources found around Sasserine and the swelling post-war population with ties to the mainland Flanaess, the town would have grown into a city, and would only now be emerging as a prosperous merchant port known throughout the southern coastal regions of the Flanaess.

Could this fly? Anyway, it's just an idea...

I believe Erik wants to eventually cover all of the PH deities (which are Greyhawk deities), but we haven't scheduled more than 1-2 ahead at this time.

Hi Sean,

Thanks for your reply. I also remember Erik saying he hoped to cover all the core deities, and I was hoping to catch a glimpse of those that are lined up for the coming publication year, thinking that at least 4-5 would have been slated by this time... but I guess not. I don't suppose you could divulge who the next 1-2 will be? Will you be writing any of them up yourself? I quite enjoyed your write-up of Olidamara... I never gave him much thought before, but would now be more than happy to play one of his priests!

For what it's worth, I would love to see a Core Beliefs article appear every 2-3 issues (okay, let's be honest... I'd love to see them published in every issue, but I realize that isn't realistic).

Long live Greyhawk! :-)

Cheers,

-- TwiceBorn

Hi Erik, James, and crew,

I just want to let you know that I'm a huge fan of both the demonomicon and Core Beliefs articles. I was just wondering if you intend to publish a "Core Beliefs: Heironeous" article in the near future... it would be really timely, and would save me a great deal of effort fleshing out the faith for my players (if there are plans for such an article, I hope the author remembers to refer to the outstanding AD&D 2E product "Bastion of Faith," which would provide excellent background info)! And how about Hextor, Pelor, and Vecna -- any chance that they will be covered? They all receive a fair bit of attention in my game.

Thanks in advance for your time and reply, and thanks also for the wonderful things you've done with both Dungeon and Dragon over the last year... they've never been better!

-- TwiceBorn

Thanks for your opinions, all.

P.S. to Twiceborn: You've only been born twice?

TS

As far as I know... perhaps I have no memory of the other times I might have been born?

-- TwiceBorn

so why are barbarians restricted from being lawful?

I've had the same problem with bards, for whom it is written that "the spontaneous talent, magic, and lifestyle of the bard are incompatible with a lawful alignment." For wandering minstrel type bards, perhaps. But what about the poet, chronicler, or herald type who is content to work within the halls of his lord's court, and to adhere closely to etiquette, tradition, and protocol? The one who is content to be the official spokesperson for a lawful lord?

Some musicians have very lawful tendencies, in the sense that they strictly follow sheet music, the maestro, etc. Some of them are technically perfect, yet their music has no soul. Conversely, I think of most rock stars as "chaotic bards," bursting into spontaneous jams or solos, leading the "wild life," and frequently emphasizing emotion and free spirit over technical perfection.

Like people in general, artists and musicians can range from the ultra-conservative (working within a structure and respecting traditions and "laws") to the ultra-liberal (more open minded, experimental, etc.). My co-DM friend and I decided that we should lift the alignment restrictions on bards... why restrict your role playing opportunities?

I feel the same way about your barbarian conundrum. As you so rightfully pointed out yourself, the vast majority of so-called "primitive" societies have strict rules and taboos that ensure that social cohesion is maintained. Many have a well defined sense of honour. Going into a rage once in a while when confronted by enemies does not automatically imply a weakening of social bonds or commitment to rules and order during the 95% of the time when the character is not raging. Quite the contrary -- that sense of commitment to a particular social order and set of values may be just the thing that enables a "barbarian" (usually a name applied to tribal peoples by those with the power to define the status quo, e.g., the Romans referred to the Celts as barbarians) to find the strength within to rage against those that threaten them, their values, and their society. Certain cultures and world religions in this day and age have very strict, lawful outlooks, and their more extreme adherents act in a way that many non-believers would view as "chaotic" in order to defend their faith and values. Yet in their own eyes, they are acting in a very lawful and honourable way. (And I mean no disrespect by this, and certainly do not wish to initiate a political/religious flame war with the previous statement... I apologize in advance to anyone who may have been offended by the remark).

But back to D&D... Some barbarians may indeed be the completely uncouth, aggressive, honourless, and uncontrollable types... but I'm sure just as many could be lawful.

The alignment point rules featured in the Green Ronin Advanced Player's Manual are helpful for determining the degree to which a character adheres to chaos over law, and good over evil (i.e., there are different shades of lawful good, some being quite close to true neutral, etc.). The system also enables characters to make alignment checks when confronted by moral dilemmas (just in case the player is not sure how his character would react, to test his commitment to a particular ethos, etc.). I encourage you to check it out.

The only classes for which I see a justifiable alignment requirement are the monk (lawful) and the druid (must be neutral on at least one alignment axis). For the others, I say throw alignment restrictions out the window... they don't really serve a specific balancing factor in the game, anyway. I even think that a monk or druid could at times stray somewhat from his required alignment (using the Green Ronin alignment points) without instantly ceasing to be a member of that class... think of the role playing possibilities!

Cheers,

-- TwiceBorn

Dear Erik and crew,

First, I'd like to congratulate you on the fine work you've been doing with both Dragon and (especially!) Dungeon. You actually succeeded in getting me to subscribe to Dungeon (I've never subscribed to a RPG mag before, even though I started playing/DMing almost 20 years ago now), if only for one reason... the rise in Greyhawk content! So far, so good! I sometimes buy Dragon, but haven't gotten around to subscribing... yet...

That having been said, I do have a request for an article (or two) that I would like to see appear in Dragon (I actually would prefer to see it come out in Dungeon, but I think that's unlikely to happen). The subject would be secret door mechanisms... how do they work? I often have a hard time describing this in a plausible way to my players. There are plenty of source books on traps, but nothing on secret doors (if there is and I missed it, even within an older issue of Dragon, then please point me in the right direction!). One article could focus on "mundane" (i.e., non-magical) secret door mechanisms, ideally based on real world historical examples. I really like the way recent articles, e.g. "Down the Drain" and "Get Lost!" in Dragon #326, include references to real world history... make sure your authors keep doing that! A second article could focus on magical secret door mechanisms.

Erik and crew, thanks in advance for reading this note, and keep up the great work!

-- TwiceBorn

p.s.: Anyone else interested in the subject of secret door mechanisms?

bg2soatob wrote:

While we'll still pass DM-focused articles mostly on to our sister magazine, certain articles mostly useful to DMs will continue to appear in Dragon. For example, new monsters, new deities, and other new dodads that a DM can drop into his campaign are still going to appear in Dragon from time to time (and just wait 'til you see the Pazuzu article!). Dungeon, in the meantime, will continue carrying the DM content you've grown to expect from it. In short, we're going to continue to focus on the players, but not at the exclusion of the DM.

Hi Mike,

I've often wondered about the logic of publishing articles on demons (stats, origins, cults, etc.) as well as monster ecologies in Dragon, which is a mag that most players read... kind of hard to keep things secret, or to come up with good surprises when the players are reading the same articles, isn't it? Wouldn't it make more sense to publish those articles in Dungeon instead of Dragon? Thanks for your time.

Here it it:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/handlinglargeparties.html

Xavier Cattarinich wrote:

Any idea what issue of Dragon or Dungeon Sean's article appears in? I did a search of the site using "Sean Reynolds" as a keyword, but the article in question doesn't seem to have popped up...

Thanks for the link, Snotlord! Very useful indeed... You definitely are the coolest booger I've ever dealt with... :-)

BTW, see if you can find Sean Reynolds brillint article on larger parties.

Hope this helps

Hey Snotlord (or anybody else, for that matter),

Any idea what issue of Dragon or Dungeon Sean's article appears in? I did a search of the site using "Sean Reynolds" as a keyword, but the article in question doesn't seem to have popped up...

Thanks for your help!