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Stronfeur Uherer

Trogdar's page

1,563 posts (1,566 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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Snowblind wrote:

Something is really annoying me.

I have read a lot of Conan books.

Some combination of these is why Conan manages to defeat a Caster in the books (many of these apply to the monsters he fights as well).

a)The caster is incredibly arrogant and stupid, giving Conan a chance to do something surprising and ballsy.

b)Conan has or finds a maguffin that saves him (this includes having a friendly caster along to protect him, which happens on occasion)

c)Help shows up and saves Conan from being killed by the caster in the nick of time (typically this works because the caster is distracted).

d) The caster is really weak e.g. can only put up a small force shield for a short time, and is apparently incapable of short range offensive magic (which in the Conan setting frequently amounts to "Lighting bolt/Magic Missile, you have a 3 inch hole in your chest, GG").

e)Conan sneaks up and gets a surprise round. Repeated broadsword stabbings are reasonably effective against casters. This frequently plays out the same as c), but with Conan doing the saving.

Conan cannot go "Toe to Toe" with a caster. Almost every time he has tried he has lost horribly. Often the only reason he survives is that casters in the Conan setting frequently don't seem to understand that "Death is not too good for (their) enemies". Seriously, Conan is the most ballsy, brave, strong, heroic, lucky SoB in the entire Conan setting, so much so that by the time he ends up King of Aquilonia he is a legend throughout the known world. He is literally favored by the god of light. Still, for most casters it's very clear that the game is theirs to lose, and they lose it because they are generally power hungry idiots who have a complete lack of genre savvy paranoia that the typical PC wizard displays.

In a game of pathfinder, wizards and clerics and what have you do not have any compulsion to act like morons.

They will not betray Conan, the person who saved them moments ago, by leaping to a nearby pull rope and then...

So this is basically the funny version of what I've been trying to say(and clearly failing, by all accounts).


I... well, I kind of assumed we were talking about pathfinder. I mean, if I change all wizards so that their most powerful display of magic was a rainbow rabbit puppet dance, then I guess your average street tough could take them out. I was trying to take your argument in the best light I could.

Okay, I'll be super explicit then. If you have spell casters as capable as the ones that currently exist within the game that we are actually discussing(because why would we be talking about any other sort), then someone who is great with a sword in a realistic(non mythic hero/anime) way will not be equivalent.

If that is true, then the above mundane swordsman is not a hero within the context of the game because of the issues that naturally stem from someone having a binary choice like can I stab it? yes/no While another player in the same game has an effect on the narrative of the story in as many areas as he/she cares to dabble in.


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I... am really at a loss as to how your missing my point. Are the magic users in any of the instances you mention anywhere remotely as powerful as full casters in this game? Will cleverness and gumption work out more often than not if you are a good sword fighter engaging someone flying, invisible, and summoning the Seven friggin incarnations of all hell to crush you?

I don't care what happened once in a story somewhere, its not relevant because we aren't playing story time. There is no way for a fighter to face down a wizard with that kind of power and win in any sort of realistic sense, so throw realism to the curb so that we can play out the narratives of the stories you mention without feeling like we had to throw the game rules out the window to make it happen.


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Im not convinced by any of the narrative examples you have offered because the circumstances of success are entirely determined by said narrative. Would Aragorn succeed against Sauron? Because unless he can, within the context of a game(like, on the battle-mat), then it is really irrelevant.


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of course there are fantasy heroes in novels without magic, but we aren't playing a novel. The reason the magic user in a lot of novels don't ultimately defeat the hero are pretty contrived in most cases, and you'd be hard pressed to make that fly at a gaming table without a number of players feeling pretty butt hurt about it afterwards.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
I guess the point, then, is that if you want to run a game within that sort of context you would need to take magical classes off the table in terms of player character choice.

And this is the core of the problematic argument, assuming you're talking to me. Why is it impossible to have gritty fighters in the same setting as magic-users?

Of course, it would still require major modifications. At the least, changing the Falling rules and the sort. Second, heavily nerfing magic users (or giving martials more "ordinary but good" abilities, like higher HP, bonuses to skills, maybe taking away arcane casters' good Will saves and giving 'em to fighters). But just the fact that magic exists doesn't mean non-magic people can't.

It doesn't work too well for Pathfinder (though fans of the system could probably work something out). I'd call it Gritfinder or something. Or just go play Swords and Wizardry.

I'm more approaching this argument from the point of view of a writer than that of a GM, for the record. I really don't like hearing anything to the effect of "Mages, ergo realism is invalid." And while that is hyperbole, it's not dishonest. Nor is it strawmanning (has anybody said that yet? I hope not. Straw men are the nazis of the 2010s). I'm trying to distil the point to show my views on it. That's where I believe it leads, and it's where I believe it's based on.

Im just pointing out that if you want to use this game specifically while also living within a basic gritty realism focused narrative, then you cant use the casting classes presented. You can't even use mundane classes beyond a certain level due to the falling from space while punching rhino's to death issue.

I think I mostly have an issue with people talking about a game system and conflating it with a fantasy narrative that they read in your average novel, when the two really are very dissimilar(within the context of pathfinder) if you care at all about equivalent experience of the player base.


I guess the point, then, is that if you want to run a game within that sort of context you would need to take magical classes off the table in terms of player character choice.


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Not to mention the fact that the breath attack is explicitly not a miss. Its like saying that guy getting doused in napalm is metaphorically being harmed when he is very literally a human torch.


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Well, since dragon flight is explicitly not magical, it infers that other non magical effects could similarly defy our well established physical laws?


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Just gonna put this here

Jiggy wrote:

Ultimately, having a "fantasy" setting just means there are things in the setting that go beyond reality. In a sense, the setting has two types of things in it: the mundane (that which is comparable to reality) and the fantastic (that which exceeds reality).

Now, different fantasy settings (which, remember, means "settings in which some things go beyond reality") will have different ways of determining how someone (or something) is allowed to exceed reality, to make the jump from being mundane to being fantastic.

In some settings, the necessary element to move from the mundane to the fantastic is simply magic. The Harry Potter universe is a perfect example: the fantasy setting is literally "reality plus magic". If you're a spellcaster (or magical creature), you're part of the fantasy story. If you're nonmagical, you're part of the mundane background; you're what the reader/viewer compares the magic to in order to see how much more fantastic it is than you are.

In other settings, a person could exceed reality and move from the category of "mundane" to the category of "fantastic" by any number of means: magic, training, enlightenment, divine parentage, and so forth. This type of setting is where you see people like Pecos Bill, who could lasso a tornado just by virtue of being a badass. Thus, his badassery was able to elevate him from "mundane" (realistic) to "fantastic" (beyond reality).

Both types of settings are fine. They tell different types of stories, and neither can really fill in for the other.

But there's an extra complication when you're talking about a game.

See, in a book or film or TV show, you can mix fantastic characters with mundane characters as you please, because you can carefully sculpt the action to have the result you want. In Avatar: the Last Airbender, the setting is of the first kind I described (only magic gets to exceed reality and be "fantastic"). However, the core group of protagonists includes both fantastic and mundane...

* Jiggy drops the mic and walks away*


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Muscle magic my friends. :P


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I can't imagine heroes in a world whose very nature, and thus its physics, are tied to something like magic not being supernatural. I find the idea of a totally mundane(in the real world sense) person even existing in such a place breaks my suspension of disbelief. How does a species like that survive in that environment without some extremely heavy handed intervention? And really, who would put themselves out constantly to keep these terribly adapted creatures from extinction?


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Classic knights are great, at level five.


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I would be pretty psyked to play a super fantastical martial like some of the heroes of myth. Too bad that's never going to happen in the normal game.


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To be honest, I'm an equal opportunity ice cream eater.


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Pralines and cream sucka!


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Mystically Inclined wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:
An in-depth reply to Cat-thulhu

You've either missed the point, or decided to counter it by taking the post seriously. Cat-thulhu was making a comically exagerated list (almost all of which have been suggested in this thread to one degree or another) to underline the fact that we've spent waaaaay too long focusing on the will save issue. That horse was dead 10 pages ago.

Cat-thulhu's post was brilliantly absurd and funny as hell. And his point was spot on.

Considering how many people on PF boards all over the internet unironically fall back on the "you just like/don't like this thing because you want an invincible character" argument I elected to take him at his word. Maybe you've never gotten into arguments against that the Slayer is the most overpowered thing EVAR that clearly has no purpose except to be the perfect be-all end-all murderhobo, which people only like because it's objectively the best at killing things, but I have.

I dunno about you, but "oh, just give everyone 9th-level casting, then. There, problem solved" type sarcasm was never particularly funny to me, particularly when it's used to dismiss a somewhat valid point that the Monk had to lose one of the more unique things about it, being the only class that didn't have a save weakness, to be brought in line with other combat classes. I'm not a fan of trying to browbeat someone into swallowing their concerns about a change in the class by painting them as a whiner because they don't agree with the design philosophy that brought it about.

For the record, I don't agree with the idea of being too negative about the NuMonk before play has confirmed or denied the theory spinning around it, and I think Mark's hopeful attitude is the proper one for exploring this new, experimental, and optional material. THAT BEING SAID, I feel like people have the right to say what they damn well please about the product when they're not satisfied. Some people feel that the...

This needs to be quoted for the sake of its awesomeness.


even if you don't use the psionic stuff, its a great way to check the balance points of any class you plan to make. I think that they have some of the best development cycles for balancing their classes and wouldn't be the only one who thinks that.


could just be the benefits of an extra pair of eyes, or more likely, another consciousness looking through your eyes... :)


maybe use the hero point system and allow them to blow the whole lot to reverse time for rounds equal to half their level. You could fluff it as some sort of boon from the god of time or something.


LazarX wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
So, basically, if a player spends several feats to make a stat less important, its not okay because that stat should be important? That's an interesting line of reasoning.
2 feats is not exactly several, especially given that the first feat would be one a dex fighter would take anyway.

Why does it matter that a dex fighter would take it anyway?


So, basically, if a player spends several feats to make a stat less important, its not okay because that stat should be important? That's an interesting line of reasoning.


Not really convinced that it is broken really. Is it more balanced that a sorcerer can use umd to activate cleric scrolls like a boss? If so, why do you think that?


I really wish feats did interesting things on the whole, but that isn't really the state of the game. The reason why I was suggesting not to overdue the multiclass thing is precisely because of the effectiveness you mention. That said, if your dead set on it, go for it. Does skald rage interact with urban barbarian rage or do the two overlap? I haven't read the specifics in a while, but I worry that it may just default into a standard strength bump and run of its own rounds. I would want to iron out that detail before going any further.

Edit: Raging song looks like it would work separately, so maybe just jump into bard if you want to keep buffing your to hit... It'll have action economy issues though.


iron will. Multiclassing into classes with poor will saves makes this something you'll need at some point or other. I would just stick with barbarian levels after the swash dip as well due to the diminishing returns that come from multiclassing.


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They could just ignore difficult terrain on creep. Its easy to implement, and its not going to ruin the PC's day the way the reverse would.


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A special ability is not a limitation, its an advantage.


I played with the idea of a feat that allowed you to increase your critical threshold with finesse weapons in lieu of straight damage bonuses. It seemed like a more thematic way to approach dex to damage, but I would have to run numbers to figure out how critting most of the time instead of having straight damage bonuses would play out. If you had a +5-7 modifier in strength at end game, but got a critical threat on every swing that was likely to hit your opponent, it would emulate that sort of savvy combatant that everyone is trying to make.


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Man feats... Feats are great aren't they? I almost forget I have them there so useful. I mean, who wouldn't trade out nine levels of casting for more feats. Am I right guys! Huh!?

... no?


RJGrady wrote:

So, spending 1 of 21 feats on any one of Lunge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off-Guard, or Two-Weapon Fighting is a Schroedinger's Fighter? Wow. I guess I was reaching more than I thought.

Okay, so let's just assume going forward that the Fighter is proficient with ten exotic weapons and takes Weapon Focus eleven times. That's a fair comparison, right?

Thats perhaps a touch hyperbolic. I think that the fighter is still pretty much boned with all of the feats you mentioned due to action economy and poor saving throws. The elephant in the room is clearly the arcane and divine full caster that just ruins your day, you get a shot at taking one of them out. Not a fantastic shot, but its there.


yeah, pretty weird, but it says the wielder can call it, but you need to be holding it with the ability to use it to be considered the wielder.... Also, I agree completely Lemmy.


Imbicatus wrote:
ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.
It exists in Pathfinder.

Pretty sure that special ability is a waste of ink, as you can't wield something that's not in your hands. The designers have stated that wielding requires you to attack with the tool in question to be considered wielding.


LazarX wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Let me rephrase myself. Mithral changes the limitations of the armor.... The applicability of Brawling is a limitation on the enchantment itself, not the armor.
Can you give examples of what you feel the difference is? Because I feel that bards being able to cast in light armor is a limitation on the class itself, and not the armor. So I'm not seeing what you mean and what your difference and distinction is.
The limitations rule when written was clearly framed in terms of how the armor is used. Mithral lightened the armor so the armor got to be counted as "light" in term of usage, how fast you could move with it, the armor check penalty and so on. It was never intended to be used in terms on how enchantments could be applied to it.

This is a great example of someone adding something to a description that isn't their, thanks LazarX. There is nothing in the description that states any of this.


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Its pretty awesome how people add interpretation as to what a completely inclusive statement means... /facepalm


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How is ALL LIMITATIONS EXCEPT PROFICIENCY UNCLEAR?


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+1 Wraith
Your best bet is to make tactical decisions in combat that put the rogue at risk. The GM can't do anything about it short of taking control of your character, and if they do, then its clear that its time to leave.


Wow... thanks for the straw man argument Diego. Anyone could tell that I was pointing to how vital the word charge was to the sentence structure of the feat. I already stated what special referenced in this context... the feats specific rules introduced through dimension door and its ilk.


^Pretty much. If you fail at elementary level math, then there is no helping you(the GM).


Diego... please stop. You have to literally ignore how English works to come to the conclusion you are coming to. A special charge is defined by the feat, but it doesn't matter if its not defined really because you can eliminate the prefix "special" and still have a working sentence. If you take charge out of the sentence, it ceases to be a sentence altogether.


Realism? lol

If you believe that it will take multiple strikes to the throat with a rapier to kill you, then I can understand your argument... but your still wrong on the grounds of realism.

This game is an abstraction. Ability scores have nothing to do with realism!


I think there's a book coming out on tactics soon, should be interesting. I'm looking forward to it at least.


tl;dr If you throw gobs of money and feats at it, dexterity can potentially become more powerful than two handing... after most games are over.

Sounds totally overpowered doesn't it? /sarcasm


To be fair, ability score dumping is an artifact of point buy systems that don't give enough to make an all rounder. There's a strong correlation between the point buy system and the need for these sorts of feats.


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

One thing I've learned as an adult s that almost nobody with a strong opinion is ever swayed by logical discourse. It doesn't matter if you're discussing what classes are OP, whether drugs should be legal, or if Hillary Swank is or is not attractive...you can formulate a perfect argument, supplemented by all the data supporting your argument and nullifying theirs that you want...people are by nature pigheaded, and 99% will ignore everything you said and just root further into their original belief.

Move on, don't waste your time, and spend your energy on something that matters.

"I disagree," should be sufficient.

Coincidentally, this is probably the first post you've posted that I fully agree with.:P


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If you think going up a die step or so is broken, then you need to go reread the spell section of core.


Imbicatus wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
a rogue has a better BAB at four levels.

I must warn you. A rogue has better BAB than a wizard at 18 levels!

ROGUES OP! WIZARD USELESS!

This argument hurts my brain. Wizards do a lot of melee in your games eh? I guess fighters throw a lot of magic around too.

The point of a EK is to do fighting and magic. They do magic okay, but they suck at fighting, and they gave up being very good at magic for the privilege to do so.

An EK isn't that much better at fighting than a single class wizard with racial proficiency in a martial weapon, and gave up multiple caster levels, school abilities, and bonus magic feats to get a +2 to effective bab over a transmuter wizard.

No one is saying that an EK cant cast and fight. They just are not that great at it.

I'm aware, I was just pointing out how rediculous that statement was.


As an aside, this is a tremendous feat investment, so if you shut a player who is doing this down don't do it too often because, if you do, they may as well not have feats.


Qualify the statement that they can do this every round until they run out of available teleports and it becomes somewhat less so.


Rhedyn wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
a rogue has a better BAB at four levels.

I must warn you. A rogue has better BAB than a wizard at 18 levels!

ROGUES OP! WIZARD USELESS!

This argument hurts my brain. Wizards do a lot of melee in your games eh? I guess fighters throw a lot of magic around too.


Look, I'm trying to point out that if your looking for a rational set of objective reasons for something within the context of gods and religion, your going to be disappointed... Period.

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