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Two weapon Rend was supposed to be Double Slice. I made a copy error at some point.
Str 19 (17+2 Racial) Dex 15, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 7
Only building up to 12, because this is for a PFS character.
I've got two builds I'm considering. The main difference is, Do I bother with Improved Two Weapon Fighting?
I decided off the bat to not bother with Greater Two Wep, as it would involve sacrificing to much Strength for Dex to get up to 19 Dex.
So, build options. Human Fighter. 20 point buy.
Option 1 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Option 2 - NO Improved Two Weapon Fighting
I went with Improved Trip and Greater Trip because Meteor Hammer has the Trip weapon quality, and a special feature where if you successfully trip with it you can pull the target 5' closer to you.
So, basically I'm looking for things like, should I take the feats in a different order (Take Power Attack earlier, etc.) is there another race option that would benefit me more (some Half-Orc or Half-Elf alternate racial trait I missed that would help), and if there's an archetype that would benefit me?
The only thing I'm really married to in this build is Meteor Hammer and having at least basic TWF so that I can use it in both modes decently.
A number of classes get the power to temporarily enchant or empower a weapon, granting it a +X weapon bonus, and adding a (usually limited) selection of weapon enchants.
Which class does this best?
El Kabong - Two-Handed weapon fighter that starts with a 2 level Bard dip, and builds for Improvised weapons.
First round, Summon Instrument to created a Dreadnaught sized Guitar (DM agreed that since it weighs a bit more than the great club we'd use that for damage).
And if the guitar breaks?
Okay, I've had an idea for a character, I'd like some early advice.
Basically, I want to take a starting dip in Gunslinger (1 to 3 levels), followed by something that will let me temp enchant my weapon.
I'm thinking Warpriest, but are there better options?
I've built two characters to level 12, I'm gonna show some attack/damage math at four levels.
We've got two characters, Hubert, a Human two-handed weapon Fighter, and Gnitwit, a Gnome Slayer with a 1 level dip into Knife Master Rogue.
I'll look at 4 levels, 6 & 7 and 11 & 12. These levels because this is where Gnitwit first falls behind one attack per round, then catches up the next level.
Hubert is pure Fighter Two-Handed Weapon archetype, using a Great Sword.
All stat increases go into Strength.
Gnitwit is a Slayer with 1 level in Knife Master Rogue. 1st level Rogue, all subsequent levels Slayer.
All stat increases go into Dexterity.
Hubert build (1 empty feat, not sure what to put there)
Gnitwit build (extra slayer talent at 7 from favored class bonus)
Key assumption, Enemy AC is for CR matching character level.
Gnitwit Total DPR no power attack
Hubert Total DPR no power attack
Gnitwit DPR with Power Attack
Hubert DPR with Power Attack
DPR Calculations are made by figuring the attack damage (including backswing on Huberts 2nd and 3rd attacks) then multiplying by the % chance of actually hitting with each attack, and multiplying the average crit damage by the odds of critting multiplied by the odds of confirming (including Crit Focus at levels 11 & 12)
So we learn some important things here (power attack aint helpin Gnitwit at least against a CR==Level monster) but mostly we learn the following.
Gnitwit falls behind Hubert in DPR, to the following amounts.
Note, Kukri average damage is 2, Greatsword is 7, and Gnitwit is 4 stat points (2 mod) behind and Hubert gets stat mod * 1.5 or sometimes * 2.
Str 6 small character, Medium load 16-30 lbs.
Medium load penalties are lesser than BP alone, therefore do not apply.
Other gear - Nah.
First two levels are weak, level 3 (when we add Slashing Grace) come up to par with a 16 strength fighter using a great sword (thanks to 1d8 sneak attack), by level 10 (thanks to Studied Target and d8 sneak attack) we're ahead of the fighter (even counting Weapon Specialization) by about 6 damage per attack.
I mean, if I wanted to make a super optimal character, I'd make a Half-Orc Two-Handed weapon fighter with an 18 boosted to 20 in strength and dump int/cha.
The goal here was never "Build the Best Character"
Which, incidentally, my math indicates that the best option is 1 level of Knife Master Rogue followed by going Kukri melee slayer.
@Ectar, Word Salad is a term meaning "a confused or unintelligible mixture of seemingly random words and phrases" but is often applied to any sort of boilerplate or repetitively reused disclaimer.
In this case the "Word Salad" I was referring to was the Special line that appears on Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Exotic Weapon Proficiency and the like, specifically "Special: You can gain [Feat] multiple times. Each time you take the feat it applies to a different weapon."
Alternate Ranged build.
Feat and Talent Progression.
I picked Kukri because I'd been thinking about a rogue Knife Master dip (d8 sneak attack), but I could just as easily do the current build with Battle Axe, Long Sword, or Scimitar.
This would improve the damage from 1d3 to 1d4 or 1d6, So I guess the question is which is the best choice, 1d4 18-20, 1d6 19-20, or 1d6 x3?
Alternately, would I be better served by going Ranged weapon, use the Ranger Archery or Crossbow styles, Sniper slayer Archetype?
So, he's not actually using a two-handed weapon.
The Ranger Two-Handed weapon fighting style just give access to certain feats (Power Attack, Great Cleave, Dreadful Carnage) without needing to have the prerequisites.
Nothing in it actually requires me to use a two-handed weapon...
But this absurd feature abuse allows me to to use Power Attack with only 6 strength with my Kukri using dex to hit and dex to damage.
Okay, I'm planning out a character for PFS, and I'd like some feedback.
Up front, yes, I know Gnome is not the best choice for a melee Slayer, and yes, I know my array is not ideal.
That said, mostly I'd like to make this character as good as it can be, within the constraints of using this array, race, and class. So, mostly I'm looking for feedback on my feat and talent choices, and if a small (1-2 level) dip into another class might improve the character.
1 --Weapon Finesse
I'm considering a 1 lvl dip into Rogue with the Knife Master Archetype, but I'm not sure it's worth it.
If I take a 1 level dip into base rogue, and 19 levels of slayer, I end up with 7d6 sneak attack (at like CL 19 I think).
What if I take a dip into rogue with the Knife Master archetype? Does it modify ALL my sneak attack, so that as a R(KM)1/Sl 19 I would have 7d8 with knife master weapons and 7d4 with anything else?
Huh, nevermind, apparently my feat/talent build worked just fine, I hadn't actually multi used Combat Trick yet! Or rather, Weapon Focus is available through another available Rogue Talent...
1 Feat Weapon Finesse
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Oh, oh damn. Okay, yeah, that changing things around a bit.
The bonus talents at 6 and 12 are from racial favored class bonus
Edit: I messed this up badly, because I didn't realize you couldn't take Combat Trick multiple times...
I mean, since a Slayer gets a Talent at every even level, and one of the slayer talent options is Rogue's Combat Trick, which is any combat feat, and at 10 the Advanced Slayer talents include JUST TAKE A FEAT, My build can have UP TO 20 feats, with only like 5 locked into combat feats. Also Ranger combat style which would allow getting certain combat feats without prerequisites.
At this point the build is really really open, the only Absolute so far IMO is taking the Assassinate talent at 10 (Save or Die, but if you save still take normal damage + sneak attack).
So, that's 19 feats open still...
Not so much a new class, but I'd like to see more Archetype support for the original Hybrid Classes. Core Classes got a lot of support in things like Ultimate [Whatever] and Occult Adventurers and such.
The Hybrid classes haven't gotten as much.
And I'd really like an Archetype for Slayer that is similar to the Rogue Knife Master.
I mean, Amulet of Mighty Fists...
I was making an improvised weapon fighter, and ran into an issue that annoyed me, the lack of any way to put magic weapon enhancements onto improvised weapons without a massive dip into another class. Generally a dip large enough that you're actually a Magus/Warmage/Whatever with like a 2 level dip into fighter and lots of regrets...
Then I found out about Deliquescent Gloves and Helm of Brilliance, and hit upon an idea. These items grant any weapon you hold the Corrosive or Flaming abilities (respectively) and pricing breakdowns seem to come out CLOSE to the cost being the same as placing the enhancement on a weapon. Actually cheaper, since they seem to cost out at 2000 gp like a +1 weapon, but to ACTUALLY put them on a weapon you'd end up spending 8000 gp, because the weapon needs a +1 enchantment AND the Corrosive or Flaming ability (+1 equivalent) so the weapon would cost as a +2 weapon.
Fluff: Drogen was brawler, and while he carried a great axe, he drew a certain perverse pleasure from killing enemies with things like Chairs, Tables, or their own cooking pot. But, no matter how skilled he became at using random objects as surprise weapons, he coveted the power of enchanted weapons.
But then, one day, he found an answer. A pair of Deliquescent Gloves came into his possession, and he discovered something. Any weapon in his hand gained an aura of acid, even unconventional weapons.
So, Gloves of the Improviser +3 will grant any weapon a +3 enhancement. Gloves of the Improviser +1 Keen will grant a slashing melee weapon +1 Keen, but grant a bashing weapon or a bow nothing.
The enhancements on the gloves are limited to lower than normal enhancements on a weapon (enchanting gloves with weapon enchants is less effective than enchanting a weapon directly) so weapon bonus is capped at +4 and total effective weapon bonus is capped at +8, so you can do +3 vorpal but not +4 vorpal. As with a normal enchanted weapon, the gloves must have at least a +1 bonus to have a special quality.
Creation: Craft Magical Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Spells necessary for any special qualities, Cost as effective weapon bonus +655gp
I know the Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon spells can temporarily grant +1 or better, and the Magus' class features let them grant +'s and certain abilities like Flaming and Vorpal.
But what other options, spells or class features, exist that let you give your weapon magic bonuses, particularly things that allow you to add special abilities (Flaming, etc.)?
I'd just like to say, again, that in any home game I'd Allow A> Improvised weapons made of masterwork materials (Mythril, Adamantine, Darkwood) to count as masterwork weapons, and B> I'd allow Enchanting of said items with weapon enchants, *Though using Fighting Tankard as a Baseline I would require the Character or Hired Enchanter to have Craft Wondrous Item AS WELL as Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and probably tack on an extra 1000gp to the cost.*
The OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONLY reason I consider this even worth discussing and hashing and REhashing, is because of things like PFS where people bring characters from one game to another game at a table with different people and a different DM, and so when there is an ambiguity like this we NEED a clear ruling, because otherwise characters that work fine one game may not function at all in another.
Also my El Kabong build really needs a Shocking Burst Guitar, so that he has an Electric Guitar...
Okay, here's a hypothetical scenario.
The PC's have been tracking a series of Lycanthrope attacks. They are currently at a dinner hosted by the local lord they are working for, when one of his retainers shape-shifts into Werewolf (Hybrid Form) and attacks. One of the PCs grabs the Solid Silver Tea Pot off the table and begins beating the Werewolf with it.
Does this improvised weapon bypass the Werewolf's DR 10/silver?
If YES:: Then Scenario 2
In a previous game session, the PCs acquired a decent quantity of raw Adamantine Ore, which they largely used to have armor and weapons made. Bob, being 'that guy' had a Beer Stein made. If they fight an Iron Golem, and Bob uses his Adamantine Beer Stein as an improvised weapon, does it bypass the Golem's DR 15/Adamantine?
If he uses the Stein to try to Sunder an Item, does it ignore hardness less than 20?
Another question I'd love to have some sort of official answer on is, if you have a Fighting Tankard, Does it work with Catch Off-Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery?
Character Concept: El Kabong.
Improvised weapons feats and traits.
Bard for the Summon Instrument cantrip, and cure light because it's useful to have little self healing on hand.
Build concept: At the start of battle I summon a Guitar (a Dreadnaught size guitar has a size and weight slightly above that of a great club) which will last for 2 minutes or 20 rounds, and then beat things to death with it.
I'm making an odd character, Fighter with a 2 level bard dip (for some specific spells).
Fighter, I'm going to go Two Handed Weapon Fighter Archetype, but it just occurred to me that I can Archetype the Bard Dip, since I don't care much about any of the bard class features.
So, which Bard Archetype would be more useful?
They'd do other things as well, but I think those are the most important with regards to a primarily two-handed weapon fighter.
I sure wish they'd FAQ Improvised Weapons/ Catch Off Guard/ Proficiency with weapons.
I need a good answer for my El-Kabong build...
And while the comment "Gm Fiat" is all well and good, when things CAN become an issue in organized play (I.E. PFS) then there really SHOULD be some sort of Official ruling...
Damn ambiguity in language.
Anyway, Interesting to see that the arguments in the 2017 are almost exactly the same as the ones from 2011 and 2014...
(Also, as a slightly Pedantic footnote, the exchanges of "there's no RAW proof you can" Vs. "there's no RAW proof you can't", in all formalized debate, the burden of proof is on the negation, so if we say "Can you enchant a Mithril Frying Pan (by definition Masterwork) with the +1 weapon enchant?" then the "No, you can't" side MUST show some evidence to support that view point. The Affirmation does not need to show evidence until such time as they have to refute the negations evidence. Then we argue about whose evidence is "Better")
If you select the Faith Discipline for your Psychic, you get the ability to sacrifice a spell slot to spontaneously cast a cure(or inflict) spell similar to a Cleric, with some limitations.
It does SPECIFICALLY say that the spells are NOT on your spell list for any other reasons.
Can you use Phrenic or Major Amplifications on these spells though?
For example, I could easily see times you would want to use Mindshield in conjunction with a Cure spell, but CAN you?
I'd just like to say, while it's not Pathfinder, in 3.5 (specifically in Eberron) there was a thing called "Siege Undead" which the Necromancer kingdom made.
You take one corpse, skin and debone it.
Then a single ritual animated all three.
So, within 3.5, it is canon specifically possible to make more than one mindless undead from a single corpse.
Seems good to me.
A selection of fully stated NPCs in each ARG race, and one or even two Iconics in each race, as a fully stated 20 level pregen character.
It'd be nice to be able to throw in something like a Grippli Village and not have to either A> spend five hours creating all the major NPCs or B> try to pull everything out of my *** at the last second and then keep it all straight.
Ed Reppert wrote:
I just, I don't like your (the plural you, those who seem opposed to creating any new classes at all, and keep talking about 'Design Space') 'tests' because A> they serve ONLY to say 'Don't even try to be creative' and B> Existing core classes can fail them.
Druid. What can a Druid do, and do better, than a Cleric with a special domain that gives it an animal companion and the Beast Shape spell chain as domain spells? NOTHING. So druid shouldn't be a class. It should be a cleric domain. Not even an archetype, just a domain.
Also, the whole '8 Archetypes' thing.
Magus in Ultimate Magic - 4
So, CLEARLY to be published a class doesn't NEED 8 archetypes.
If you are going to say a class MUST have X number of Archetypes (which I don't agree with, because game design and writing a source book with multiple classes is NOT a solo pursuit and do you REALLY thing a single person created any single given class let alone all it's archetypes? Occult Adventures for example has 23 authors, so saying 'Hey, guy on the forum you must, alone, come up with a fully functional and flaw free class with X fully functional and frankly superior to some of the published s~+& archetypes, to even suggest a new class on a forum for fun' is totally unrealistic) to be viable, that number is, AT MAXIMUM 4 (FOUR).
There is this real tendency on game forums to try to hold amateur creators to standards HIGHER than the paid first party authors. And that's just crap. Y'all keep going "Is this as good as [Class you think is BEST]?" when you should really be going "Is this as good as [Whatever you think is weakest/worst designed (I.E. Swashbuckler or Pre-unchained summoner)]" and, IF THE ANSWER IS NO, instead of going "YOU'RE DUMB AND YOU SHOULDN'T MAKE THINGS AND THIS CLASS IS CRAP AND UNNECESSARY" you should maybe instead say "Hey, here's an idea that might improve that class and make it more viable."
And if you CAN'T come up with something, maybe you should accept that YOU AREN'T CREATIVE and YOU ARE JUST A JEALOUS PUNK who is pooping on other people to deal with your MASSIVE FEELINGS OF INADEQUACY.
So suck an egg.
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