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Grand Necromancer

TimD's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber. FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 1,121 posts (1,148 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 41 Pathfinder Society characters. 2 aliases.


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Some good advise upthread.

Quick post: two things that many / most GMs don't account for are speak with stone / plants abilities (it's always a pain when the murder site can talk with the investigators) and psychometry-type abilities (such as those introduced in the newer Occult books) or abilities where the investigator can remove view into the past (such as via psychometry).

Abilities which bypass direct scrying / divination (such as sharing memories or the sense of others) are also problematic for those that rely on abjurations such as non-detection or mindblank.

Hope that helps, will try to come back later with more comprehensive thoughts.

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Secret Hellknight Order?
Interesting... I've been hoping for some more info on the origins of the Black Companies Hellknight Orders in Golarion... maybe this will be a point in that direction...

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Random suggestions of the top of my head:

Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1 caster level) - 30,000gp
Metamagic Gems (Maximizing Sapphire & Widening Emerald at 4,000gp ea and Quickening Diamond at 8,000gp each, especially)
Conduit Rod - 12,000gp
Amulet of the Blooded (Elemental - Fire?) - 12,000gp (for the vulnerability to energy factor)

Bow at ready with arrow nocked, Urien moves to the edge of the building and the bridge, looking for an enemy to shoot.

Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (18) + 3 = 21
stealth: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (9) - 1 = 8

Noticing the one thing with his 21, he readies to shoot the first hostile to step out (assuming he can ready at this point).

1/2 move 15 ft due to stealth, standard to ready to shoot.

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brightnessman wrote:


I am a new player to pathfinder, and so is my GM.
I have read all the rule books available (excuse me if i m not familiar with their acronyms), which was a lot ...

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Since very few DMs hand out +15 weapons to first level orc barbarians just to make a caster cry, your example is a strawman waiting to be set on fire.

*slow blink*

*I think you've been posting on the boards too much lately, or something. New players are going to ask new player questions.

While I'd never recommend profaning anyone with decaf, you may want to pondering adding some whiskey to your coffee or something...

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Hey, welcome to Pathfinder.

Rather than address all of your questions individually, it seems like it might be better to just explain how "slots" work with the magic system in PF and then address specific bonuses.

In PF, the limiter on active magic items on a character are:

the available character "slots" (ex belt, eyes, headband, etc.) ...

...if the benefit is of the same type, with some exceptions such as dodge bonuses (ex. an enhancement bonus from a weapon and an enhancement bonus from a spell don't stack - you take the higher of the two)...

...if the character is receiving the same benefit from the same source (ex. two haste spells don't stack to give a +2 dodge bonus as they are from the same source - a haste spell)...

... and if there is a specific rule that overrides a general rule about how the effect interacts with the character or other active effects (ex. magic weapon cannot normally be used to enhance an unarmed strike, but a monk's class level abilities state that they count as weapons, which over-rides the general rule with a specific rule).

For instance, you can have a dozen ioun stones floating overhead that will all be active...
... but if you have two ioun stones that grant you a +2 CON bonus, only one will be active as they are both enhancement bonuses and don't stack...
... if two are the "+1 hit point" ioun stones, they are called out explicitly as stacking, however, so you're fine to use them together.

Footnote answer:

Not all classes perform, behave, or can be tracked by the same metrics.
In general, a Barbarian will pretty much always outperform all but the most corner-case examples in average damage. That's pretty much a core tenet of their class - deal damage / take damage.
A sorcerer is a bit more versatile. You can build for damage (the most optimized spell-damage builds I've seen involve sorcerer levels), but a base sorcerer is not going to compete with a barbarian for straight damage. On the other hand, they can apply conditions in addition to damage and also have a lot more utility at higher levels.

If you are looking for a damage sorcerer build, you are mostly going to be looking at feats / character build more than equipment. While there are a few things that affect specific spell damage out there (generally specifically by enhancing a specific type of elemental damage) it's not the same as the weapon / armor base that the martial classes have. Spells function on a different paradigm than melee.

Hope that helps.


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MisterSlanky wrote:
A lot of us regularly game in stores with a 6 hour operating window, and it's usually not a huge problem.

+1 to this.

The venue I was the coordinator for (before complications from a flood caused them to shut down for good) had week night gaming that was much more time-constrained than most weekend gaming it and it was rarely an issue.

In addition, you can also use this site as a resource regarding "shorter" or "longer" scenarios. It's often a comment in either the product description or GM threads about the specific scenarios. 1-7's for instance tend to be faster scenarios as page count was devoted to stat blocks for 3 tiers rather than 2, so there is less content and therefor can generally be done in faster time.


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The latter: check the quests completed and then issue the chronicle. As long as they keep playing pregens and don't apply any other chronicles to that character, they can add other quests later. It's spelled out on pg. 3 of the Silverhex Chronicles.


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ckdragons wrote:
I just read in the reviews of First Steps that it's recommended to run this scenario before Confirmation. Does it matter?

Technically, no, they can be run in any order.

Many run a thematic "intro to PFS" by running Master of the Fallen Fortress, then First Steps, Part 1, then Confirmation. This allows PCs to "organically" transition into the Pathfinder society by (hopefully) rescuing a Pathfinder, being inducted into the Society by meeting some of the faction heads, and then having their confirmation completed and becoming full-fledged Pathfinders.

The Silverhex Quests are also excellent for introduction as they lend themselves to "sandbox" play a bit more and can help transition new players.


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As this is your first time GM'ing PFS, Confirmation is an excellent suggestion. For additional "first time" game content, First Steps, part 1 is a free download and is another "intro" both in and out of play scenario.

Random advise: so that your first game runs smoothly, I'd suggest pre-drawing what maps you can and making sure that you have any stats / miniatures / templates / etc. handy. When doing intro scenarios (and sometimes higher level scenarios) I also like to use 3x5 cards to write out some of the items that may be found on the adventure, especially as newer players may not be used to trying to track such things (Ex. Wand of Cure Light Wounds, caster level 1, 1d8+1 hitpoints, 8 charges: [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] ). If you are artistically inclined (or hilariously not so inclined), you could also sketch a picture on the back to flip it over when it is identified.

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My normal (non-PFS) gaming groups defaults to PvP active unless otherwise specified, but it rarely comes up. Many of us have been gaming together for 20+ years at this point, so it's generally for laughs or verisimilitude of rp, not because we're playing Grimshiv McMurdersFaces who can't take a joke / criticism.

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Very cool. Here is a link if anyone else is curious about the ship / manufacturer.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
plaidwandering wrote:

way too many ban requests going on lately

Are you requesting a ban on ban requests?


It's getting ridiculous, even by internet standards. We're making paladin and alignment threads seem almost reasonable.

I'm sure we all have a list of a dozen or so things we'd rather not see in PFS, but the reality is this is a witch hunt for a spell which came from the 5th player companion ever published almost 7 years ago that has been on the available resources list as long as I can find reference to the book it came from. It hasn't broken PFS up until now and I really don't want to keep wading through these stupid "please ban" threads which continue to damage my opinion of the PFS volunteers and question my support for the campaign.


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Just a random observation: I think a lot of the disagreement may also involve how different areas handle sign-ups and mustering for PFS in their area. In our area, for instance, hard mode tables are generally advertised and sign-up for as hard-mode or organized privately, even if being played at an open venue as an extra table.

In areas where all mustering is regularly done on-site (which still boggles my mind, but I get that it works in some areas) or at conventions where pre-mustered tables are an exception rather than a rule, this becomes more problematic.


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There are many kinds of gamers it's not surprising that we don't all like the same type of things all of the time (though to be fair PvP is rarely a concern in PFS).

I'm glad John & the encounter writers can do some hard mode for those who prefer a greater challenge. I hope that they continue to do so. I think it's just as legitimate as a desire for additional "rp or skill-solvable" encounters or those who want more continuity between seasonal plots. I don't think a "generic pool of up-scaling possibilities" would address their desire for hard-mode play any more than a d20 list of acceptable backgrounds for all possible NPCs encountered would assist those who prefer to role-play their way out of combats and into success conditions.


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Eric Brittain wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
So let's not exaggerate how hard this is to develop.

Hard mode tables tend generate more complaints than 'regular' tables.

Each complaint take a significant amount of time for an organizer or member of the Venture Corps to address.

Must be a regional thing, then.

I've heard far, far more complaints about Thornkeep 1 & Risen from the Sands (when using the pregens) than I have about all of the Bonekeeps and actual hard mode scenarios combined.

I'm glad that the RVCs are tracking these complaints in a metric that can measured, however. I'm curious how this is documented as I was unaware of this part of the process, even when I was a store coordinator. Is this new?

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I almost posted "way to be awesome" earlier, but then realized I would be the first poster...
... and I already have the humble-bundle thing :)

So, now that I'm not the first poster...

Way to be awesome, Reckless! :)


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Disagree with both the idea and the intent of the OP.


Amanda Plageman wrote:
These are just a few suggestions to give the players what they want without tying up limited in-scenario page count, and without wasting the development team’s time trying to add individual ‘hard mode’ options.

Part of the draw of gaming in general is shared experiences and stories we can later tell, especially about overcoming adversity. (I hear far more stories about green demon statue mouths than I do about the Isle of Dread.) For organized play, there are reasons that "table variation" is generally frowned on - and I would imagine that one large reason is the damage to those shared play experiences and post-game storytelling when others have very different experiences is one of them.

While it may not be your intent, the way you phrased your recommendation and the fact that you are obviously campaigning for something in order to remove options makes your post come across as somewhat condescending. If Paizo wants to keep doing hard mode, those players who enjoy it will continue to want to play that way, people who enjoy hard mode are not out to ruin the game for others and hard mode games are no more a "waste" of dev time than games with more role-playing than combat opportunities or word-count spent on NPC backgrounds.

Jack Amy wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
And please, everyone - the idea isn't "terrible" or any other insulting term. Disagree with it, but don't be a jerk.
Also seconding this. Wanting to provide a challenge to those looking for it is not a perspective that should be met with derision.

Except that one can say an idea is "terrible" without insulting the person, at least in normal society. I have terrible ideas all the time - some of which may have been inflicted on players if others hadn't pointed out the flaws. That is a part of what makes for good gaming.

Also, from what I can see the intent is not to "provide a challenge" - if that were the case, she would be championing for MORE hard mode, not insinuating that those who enjoy hard mode are causing "wasted" developer time or "tying up limited in-scenario page count". This seems to be quite the opposite, someone who (seemingly, though I may be wrong) doesn't understand the draw of hard mode trying to justify its removal by offering things that just don't actually accomplish what is being sought by those players who do enjoy hard-mode play.

Side note: while a conversation can and probably should be had about bringing up the challenge level of prior seasons' scenarios to make for similar play experience with current content, and another conversation could be had about whether or not catering to different play styles is detrimental to the org play campaign itself, I don't think this thread is likely a good place for hashing all of that out.

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Well, that escalated quickly.

Speaking of escalation... from my observation, your original victory actually seemed to hinge on the success of your campaign for violence the first year. If you are truly seeking victory again this year after last year's defeat, who is getting punched by the gauntlet if you reclaim the glory? :)

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Eyes of Protection from Errata
Aura overwhelming abjuration ; CL 30th
Slot Eyes Price n/a ; Weight-
Said to have been created by the last glimpse of the Sarkoran people consumed by the opening of the worldwound, this artifact allows the summoner to retain their abilities despite any rules changes, waffling, arbitration, "errata", or "clarification posts" so long as the player retains the original books from which they were created and updated. This protection also extends to the summoner's eidolon, though not to any other summoned or called entities the summoner may control. This item does not function for Unchained Summoners.
A UMD check from a non-summoner to emulate the summoner class for this item allows the game master to tear the player's character sheet in half while chortling "Ia! Ia!" (no matter the success or failure of the check), unless the check is made by an Unchained Summoner, in which case the Game Master should then light the sheet on fire. If the player utilizes and electronic device, they are instead required to remove the battery / power supply for their device until they have purchased the Game Master a number of alcoholic beverages equal to the affected PC's character level.

Requirements mythic craft metagame object, permission slip from either Lisa Stevens or Vic Wertz or other documentation they did indeed lose a bet and this is the result, signed witness attestation regarding the validity of the permission slip from either Erik Mona or James Jacobs indicating that no coercing or drugs were involved, creator must be wearing armor spikes approved by Jason Bulmahn, may only be created on Erik Mona Day after a proper sacrifice of pizza to Paizo staff ; Cost Goblinworks optimal 3 year operating budget


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Draws out the paizo development structure

Grumbles as an inter-dimensional rift is torn in the universe and swats at the Cthulhu tentacles emerging from it

That was Cosmo's plan wasn't it?



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Stephen Ross wrote:
it's year 7...
Stephen Ross wrote:
If everyone bought First Aid Gloves or a spring loaded wrist sheath with a scroll of Breath of Life we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Not actually true... which Breath of Life is within range when needed? ... if the person who is wearing your First Aid Gloves is currently held, but three other people have First Aid Gloves around you, you can't actually just switch after someone brings you back to say "thank you" without CHEAT! ABUSE! labels likely being applied.

Also, for a very long time scrolls were not considered eligible for spring-loaded wrist sheaths by many GMs. (I believe that was only changed/ clarified in the last year or so.)

Part of the argument for a change is to clarify these areas which a "common sense approach" (being able to at least switch out equipment you actually did purchase for this purpose with someone who had identical equipment they used on your behalf) would actually be legal, rather than ABUSE CHEATING BADWRONG FUN.

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Dotting for interest.

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I could see a crazy adaptation of the Simon Green books (Nightside, etc. - not the Deathstalker or Hawk & Fisher books) being pretty cool, but that might pull wind out of the sails of a good Dresden series.

Vampire Earth would be a good one.

Altered Carbon as a TV series is exciting. Wow.

Pretty sure Weber's Honor Harrington series has something in the works, but an adaptation of his Safehold series might be interesting as well.


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I'm a proponent of having the ability to replace a consumable used, especially in situations like "hey, I have a pair of first aid gloves and so does everyone else, but the 'who is standing where lottery' means that my gloves can't get to me in time, why don't we swap?" sort of thing comes up that doesn't require GM cheating.

I can understand concerns regarding WBL or that the culture of PFS will shift towards an expectation of repayment for everything, however.

I think the only workable answer (other than retaining the status quo which encourages sloppy play, of course) would be some sort of way to limit the way the replacement of consumables can be handled.

... though now that I'm typing this, this topic is starting to sound strangely familiar for some reason...

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It would help to know what sorts of themes and such you are planning on going with. There's really no "safe" places in Golarion, but some have different histories / themes than others.

If you are looking for more of a "blank slate" type of area, maybe somewhere in Iobaria as the area is fairly sparsely populated and (barring the areas mentioned in the Kingmaker AP) there's not been a lot published about the specific villages, cities, etc. (Looking at the map, probably either along the Pharrus River south of Norinor.)

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
And is "Mythic Adventures" not epic enough? smh.

No, it's not "epic" at all (when defining epic as post-20th level).

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For PFS: expect table variation and for people to criticize both your character's understanding of the lore and try to get you to not lose them their Prestige on any sensitive missions. If you push it, you may end up on the receiving end of "not healing / not buffing you is not PvP"

Outside of PFS: talk to your GM and fellow players and make sure that they are on board with the change you made in the background (the part about how Zon-Kuthon is only around because of Shelyn, rather than because he's a crazy neo-Cennobite deity and deities rarely throw down with each other, especially over mortals, double especially do good deities rarely throw down with evil deities over mortals the evil deity in fact saved from the Earthfall).

Also, +1 to the "this is a chaotic act, Mr. Monk, please join the paladin in the 'falling in perpetuity' queue".

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Alakallanar wrote:
While AC40 and Saves +16 are reachable, 300+ HP is a lot, even with Thoughness and a high CHA.

With PFS-style "max at 1st, average thereafter", toughness, a 28 base charisma, a +4 cha headband, and his FCB in hitpoints, he'd hit 256. If he gets more than average or has a higher cha than 32 with gear, I can easily see them hitting 300+.


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First of all, welcome back to PFS.

As mentioned upthread, if you've only played the character in one or two scenarios, you should be good for a full rebuild barring any prestige purchases as I don't believe there were any sanctioned modules in Season 0 or 1 that would have been able to push you over the 3xp / played as a 2nd level character limit.

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Pretty sure the Dresden Files qualify.


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GM Lamplighter wrote:
TimD wrote:
"Those who took advantage of the opportunity to lock aasimars & tieflings were accused of "abuse" (despite the blog post)... "

You're apparently missing the most important part of the post:

blog wrote:
"...but we're trusting you'll exercise some good taste and respect a decision made with the larger community in mind."

I didn't miss it at all, neither when it was posted or now.

I had a very much longer response trying to demonstrate how much damage these decisions and the negativity that arise from them has done to this community, but really, I'm just tired of it. Every time this topic comes up, it erodes my faith in the PFS community and especially the volunteers a bit more, especially with the "haves" and "have-nots" dividing line that now exists in the Standard Campaign due to various banning-and-grandfathering initiatives.

I feel for the new PFS players that get to play in games with APG summoners and early-entry prestige classes and are effectively told "you should have started sooner, N00b" when they ask how they can have the same opportunities as the other players.


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captain yesterday wrote:

For those of us not in the PFS loop, what happened last time with the races. I'm somewhat aware of what happened with Unchained, but any further enlightenment there would help as well.

Just curious. :-)

text from actual blog post:

For several years, aasimar and tieflings have enjoyed a prominent role in the Pathfinder Society, but as the organization concludes its work in Mendev—where numerous pit-born fight for recognition and heaven-blooded warriors wage holy war—it's time for them to step back. Beginning on August 14th, creating an aasimar or tiefling character will require a special Chronicle sheet, as was the case years ago. The exception is any aasimar or tielfing character with at least 1 XP; these characters are grandfathered into the campaign.

Does this mean you can create several new characters, play a scenario with each, and have several native outsiders waiting for when you need them? Well, we debated long and hard whether to require 4 XP per character, as at that point one is past the free rebuilding stage. However, we also recognized this as unnecessarily punitive to casual players who may only be able to play once or twice in the next month. To answer your question, yes, you can make 10 aasimars and play The Confirmation an equal number of times, but we're trusting you'll exercise some good taste and respect a decision made with the larger community in mind.

After that post, anecdotal accounts of some players fast-playing Master of the Fallen Fortress in order to "lock" aasimar & tiefling characters arose. Those who took advantage of the opportunity to lock aasimars & tieflings were accused of "abuse" (despite the blog post) causing a lot of friction and loss of faith in the campaign, especially the volunteers.

When the APG summoners were banned, it was arguably even worse as those of us who had been GM'ing were punished for GM'ing rather than playing as any of our characters which possibly COULD be respec'd were forced to respect (ie any characters which had not yet been played as a 2nd level or higher character with APG Summoner levels were not able to retain their summoner class and forced to change to something else).

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The vitriol express begins again... *sigh*

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GabrielBreen wrote:
One of my biggest concerns with the bad guys is our Antipaladin. He´s also our youngest player (somewhere in his early twenties while the rest of us is over 30) and while the group knows each other quite well (we are playing pathfinder for 5 years at least now) he seems a little eager to wreak havoc. Also he is unbeliveable tough (we are talking 300+ Hp, Ac 40 and saving throws above +16). All the other characters are either lawful or neutral evil which is way easier to handle than chaotic evil in my opinion.

Not surprising... throwing together the template and points you gave, I'm betting either a base 24 STR & 28 CHA or vice versa, with Toughness as a Bonus Feat, and a +7 Natural Armor bonus that will just go up as he levels, and DR 10/- with immunity to cold and electricity (so he can hang out in cold & electricity AoE's) and that's a pretty tough nut to crack. With the right magic items, he's pretty much only going to be worried about touch attacks or accidentally charging into a pit he can't easily escape.

So what sort of advise are you looking for from those of us who have Black Hat play experience?

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First of all, welcome to PFS :)

Keep in mind that most PFS play stops at 11th level, at this point very little goes to 12 or beyond. Make sure you character will be fun throughout and not just built for top-end play.

That said, the build looks very similar to my warpriest of Tanagaar / Unchained Rogue build, albeit without the dex to damage and with more spells. I considered a warpriest for one of my Red Mantis-worshipping characters, but in the end decided inquisitor was a better choice.

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While I want to support your request for Epic content, I have to agree that 5 exclamation points is a bit much.

Unfortunately, as mentioned upthread, Mythic is currently the closest you will currently get to true high level / epic play in PF. I too wish that we can see more support for high-level content, but I think at this point it would be better to see more support for 15-20 play and THEN post-20 play published by Paizo as far too many people seem to have issues with games that go beyond even 12th level, much less past 20th.

I looked at Mythic and don't feel it fills in for what I would consider actual post-20th level support, but for others it apparently works out fine.

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Brakiri wrote:

I find it hard to play a well rounded "person" with a role so confined in the "range" of capabilities that he actually can't do much of anything despite his "main function".

But that's just me.

Sorry, i'm not really here to argue, if that is you general opinion i respect it.

Different systems offer different things. PF is very role-oriented, rewards specialization, and has a lot of both "trap options" as well as sacred bovines, many of which are artifacts of the game system it predated and was built upon. I could rant about GURPS and bell-curve systems, or we could go over a lot of the exceptions that PF has put into its general rules (*cough*GunslingersGettingCalledShots*cough*) but we'd be here all day :)

As with most game systems, in PF finding out the type of character(s) you want to play that will work within the system is part of both the challenge and the fun. The summoner is fairly hard-coded to the eidolon, which can be a down-side. I recommended it as it has some of the best buff spells in the game, a strangely high BAB (3/4, comparable to a Rogue or Cleric), the ability to wear light armor, and access to conjuration spells, such as the ones you were inquiring about. Frankly, if you don't want the battle eidolon, there are a lot of niche eidolon builds out there for making skill monkey assistants which can also be a lot of fun as long as you aren't stealing someone else's thunder.

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HWalsh wrote:
We don't know his domains

Domains Good, Law, Nobility, War

Subdomains Archon (Good), Archon (Law), Honor, Martyr, Tactics

Inner Sea Gods, pg. 324 & 325 or Archives of Nethys.

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One of the many advantages of higher level play is the fact that PCs are imminently more "recoverable" than at lower levels.

Having a group of NPCs teleport in and alpha-strike a group of low-level PCs is pretty certain to lead to a total party wipe and new characters (possibly new players). Having it happen to high level PCs may involve the loss of simulacra, use of resources for raise dead and an intense interest in who had the ability to find / get to the PCs in their pocket demi planes or other sanctums. In short, the GM has to hold back less and PCs may have to devote more resources to day-to-day things rather than assuming that the adventure is waiting for them (they may actually be the targets of other adventuring parties at this point).

The higher the level, the more tools and smarter/ more effective opponents a GM can throw at PCs and the more they can break out of the realm of "expected / anticipated" adventures.

Also, to be fair, the point about published modules is apt. Keep in mind that most things published by Paizo at this point are for middle-of-the-road, 15-pt build parties of four. In my experience, very little high level gaming actually matches this description.

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Brakiri wrote:


I didn't know that limiting flexibility and preventing players from playing exactly what they had in mind without breaking the balance is a feature. But as you said, different strokes.

While I'd never argue that PF is an excessively balanced game, it is a class-based game, which defaults to a game which revolves around party roles. Attempting to twist a class which is THE archtypical support class into a control caster isn't something I'd call "limiting flexibility", but is very close to what I'd consider "breaking the balance".

Given that you are looking for a "battlefield control/buff" I would look into Summoner rather than Bard, which is more "buff/skill monkey".

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First, analysis::

So, let's set aside the "evil" bit for a moment, you already have some work cut out for you...

You have 25-pt characters.
*so stats are going to be relatively crazy
You are apparently allowing leadership.
*so action economy is something that may turn crazy, especially if you allow one of your "power gamers" to custom-build their character's minions to complement their character
You are allowing templates of up to +2 CR
*so "relatively crazy" stats may go to bug-nuts crazy and now you have to also figure out how the monstrous abilities work in conjunction with the character levels, spells, and other "standard" PC abilities.
You are starting at 14th level
*so there is very little "cement" for the backstory of your characters before starting and all will probably be super-optimized with perfect equipment for their starting level

I HIGHLY recommend that you do at least one "Slot Zero" session with everyone sitting down and working out their character backgrounds and how they interact in advance.

... going back to team evil, now.

Having evil characters adds another dimension to the normal "social contract of gamers" especially as many feel it adds additional threat / risk of PvP.
Pathfinder is not optimized for PvP (though you can do so). Make sure that before you start, your players know where they stand on PvP and what all of you are comfortable with. DO this again with the shades of evil everyone will be engaged in and you may want to drop hints about where you think that they will end up or what sorts of combined goals (barring world conquest) that they are interested in.

I'm not sure what your experience is with any of the combinations of the above factors, but that is a LOT of moving parts.

Second, advise::

Take a LOT of notes, both before and during game play. Notes not only about what happened, but about what spurred the actions and reactions - this is something you can use later when writing your 2nd arc campaign when the current PCs are your Big Bads. It will also let you make sure the tone of your game is something you and your players are in agreement with.

Involve the players in the world design a bit more than you normally might. They are starting at 14th level, which is higher level than many PCs ever even see after years of gaming. The characters should know who a lot of the movers and shakers are and have a somewhat clear idea of how their world works by now.

Make sure the evil characters have clear cut goals and that you have a way to communicate their perceived progress to them, otherwise this is going to go VERY off the rails and you are trying to start and wrap in very few sessions.

Give them someone or something to hate.
Generalities time: Good PCs are often motivated by altruism, good-roleplay opportunities, and chance to advance their characters and goals. Neutral characters are similar, though often more greedy and think a bit longer term. Evil characters want to live forever and see their enemies utterly destroyed in a manner that will be a lesson for all those who may even think about opposing them in the future. Write something to support that.

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Brakiri wrote:
This is the general template problem of class and level systems like PF.

Some call it a bug, others call it a feature.

Diff strokes for diff folks. PF is very much not GURPS.


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Kevin Willis wrote:

Things I expect to see as NPCs in All for Immortality:

... John's Alchemist

Now, now, Kevin let's not lose our heads over this :)


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John Compton wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
John Compton wrote:

So long as you have one of the books that references and supplies statistics for the animal companion, you should be good. There might be an exception out there that I've missed, so it's always good to check the Additional Resources document to be sure it's a legal option.

EDIT: Whoa, the megafauna don't appear in the B2 entry. That is bizarre. Because it's a book sanctioned before I started working on the campaign, I don't have any recollection of those not being allowed. Does anyone know if that's been the case for years, or is this some recent glitch I'm seeing?

Animals going extinct from the bestiary without notice has been a thing for a bit...
I know of a few, but the issue I'm getting at is that as the person inputting changes into the document, I am aware when those options are removed. This one was off my radar, hence my concern.

Just checked some of the old additional resources I had handy:

Additional Resources from 01/30/2013 wrote:
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 Animal Companions: allosaurus, arsinoitherium, baboon, compsognathus,gar, glyptodon, hippopotamus, manta ray, megaloceros, megatherium, parasaurolophus, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray, tylosaurus
Additional Resources from 08/14/2013 wrote:
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 Animal Companions: baboon, compsognathus, gar, hippopotamus, manta ray, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray

... so looks like sometime between January and August 2013.

Hope that helps.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

Paizo has not yet published anything that would be considered epic (post 20th level) rules. I believe there is some 3rd party support for such rules out there, however, so that may be a solution for you.

Mythic was Paizo's attempt at incorporating some themes which were often used in high level play into the normal 20-level progression found in the Core Rulebook. Some use it as post-20 progression.

When last I checked (which has been awhile, admittedly) Paizo has no plans for publishing actual epic content (post-20th level) and felt that Mythic would suffice for players seeking epic level content.


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Looking forward to the additional Seeker content.

Also: impressive pollen counts indeed if they can compete with us here in GA (which checking, they can even if they fall a bit behind in WA).

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Starbuck_II wrote:
Now, how many babies do you have to create to balance your murder spree? That is more equal because creating life balances life taken.

So your argument is getting laid balances murder sprees on the good-evil scale?!

As we would have said in Paranoia: Citizen, you've got more Chutzpah, than a Red Cleanliness Officer with an orifice vacuum in a Violet Zone.

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HWalsh wrote:

3. This thread is to discuss why people rail against the system in such a mass when the rules are pretty clearly defined.

Well, can't agree with that premise.

On the other hand, alignment thread, so shots!

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
With such players, I recommend forcing Neutral Good. It's the only alignment that I've never seen screwed up that badly (I mean, how do you screw up the "Don't be a dick" PC?)

I could answer that question, but you seem to still have some faith in humanity left and I like you, so I won't ruin that :)


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I like the concept, but I'm not sure on the execution. It addresses what is to me, the very worst part of PF gaming - how rules changes are implemented, communicated, and executed; which leads to the degradation of the sense of community that PFS normally tries to foster and maintain.

What the OP seems to be asking is that the same consideration be given players who may not be able to update as quickly as others as were given to the players and GM's at GenCon last year who were not forced to update their characters on-site for the ACG/ARG errata which released the same week.

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