Thr3adcr4p's page

Mmmmnnnn.. Smells like great grandma's house.

Many of you are too young to remember when we laid out the differences between the two scenarios in some detail yesterday. So you won't recall the Field Guide to Edible Plants and Mushrooms depicting all the poisonous ones as safe. But the book never told anyone to eat any plants until they died, so for anyone who took more than a nibble, it's all 100% their fault.

Kirth, your fallacious argument is getting tired at this juncture of repetativeness.

Honestly, what specifically in this book is the equivelent of your poison mushrooms that claims to be safe but is so deadly? What methodology in this book directly led to the death of these three children? Please quote from the book you claim is full of "poison" described as "perfectly safe to eat."

Citations needed. From the source.

You have come up with a false scenario, full of hyperbole, and created a strawman from that example. Then you hammer anyone who disagrees over and over with this crazy scenario.

We remember the discussion, we just think your example is rediculous, and not at all related to the actual cases described.

Thr3adcr4p wrote:

Is there any form of corporal punishment, in your view, which is not abuse? [EDIT: Genuine question, not intended as snark or strawman.]

Actually, yes, there is. I was spanked as a kid; a hard swat on the butt, to me, is a way of telling the child: "Pay attention for a minute. This is important." For this to have any meaningful effect, the child must be old enough to actually do so -- so spanking a 4-month-old is obviously a no-no.

I got the belt once -- not for what I originally did, but for lying about it to try and get out of it. It was a valuable lesson for which I'm grateful. The old man didn't count to 10 amid Bible verses; a couple of whacks made the point abundantly clear. No real harm was done, but a lot of good was accomplished.

On the flip side, things like the use of rubber hoses -- specifically used in corrupt poilce "interrogations" because they don't leave marks (and advocated for the same reason by the Pearls) -- is over the line, in my estimation.

See, that was my experience both growing up and raising my daughter as well. Pretty much, all my dad had to do is tell me to do something and it was done. I only remember one time with a belt, but don't recall the circumstances. I'd say I was never spanked past six or seven years old, but rather had learned to be obedient. Similar technique was used raising my daughter (and I never spanked her with any object other than my hand.)

This kind of environment seems to be what the Pearl's book is aiming for. I think it misses the mark on several levels, including the instrumentality/objects and the earliness of the recommended training (pre-cognitive/associative training- as early as six months? Woah!) But in no way do I agree that this book is in any way advocating abusive parenting nor encouraging the types of actions that led to these childrens' deaths. Additionally, I think blaming these specific childrens' deaths on the Pearls' book is scapegoating at its finest. To say that the parents were only following the instructions in this book and that led to the deaths is an outright lie.

You wouldn't be allowed to publish a book on child rearing that advocates abuse.

This book speaks out against abuse. In several places. It also considers some modern methods of child rearing (time outs, bargaining/rationalizing, etc.)to be abuse. It speaks about using a specific methodology of training children that involves corporal punishment.

Is there any form of corporal punishment, in your view, which is not abuse? [EDIT: Genuine question, not intended as snark or strawman.]

Cherry picking is what the article authors are doing regarding this book. You too. Pulling quotes regarding mules, tubing, rulers, etc.

Here's a nice cherry picked quote for you:

A CAUTION TO RECIPIENTS OF THE MILLSTONE AWARD

Spoiler:

There are always some who act in the extreme. Such could use what has been said about the legitimate use of the rod to justify ongoing brutality to their children. I can think of several right now. These abusers of their children would not in the least view themselves as such. They would call themselves "strong disciplinarians." "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea (Matt. 18:6)."

FORMS OF ABUSE

Spoiler:

Only a few parents are categorically abusive. But, many parents sometimes give in to an abusive manner or employ abusive methods. The child is rebellious. The parent suddenly loses it and screams out. Like a whirlwind, the child is snatched up by the arm and given several bangs on the bottom. The parent's eyes burn. The brow hardens. The pulse rate soars. Anger is the best word to describe the feelings. Smash! Subdue! "You will do what I say. You are not going to do this to me little girl." Red faced, muscles tensed. Anyone looking on the face of the parent would think there was a war on.

The rod should not be a vent for the parent's anger. In the daily run of life, many people generally experience anger and feel the need to strike out. There is no place for that selfish vindictive streak in the discipline of children. Where the child's good is not the supreme motivation, there will be problems.

I am ashamed to say that, in most cases, the rod is administered at the end of an intolerance curve. The average parents (Average parents end up with average children--the wrong end of the scale) are quite predictable in their "discipline" reactions. They go through several "warm-up" exercises to become sufficiently angry to generate retaliation against the child.

See, I find it incredulous that you would say that this book being followed leads to childrens' deaths. The means of the three children's deaths were not anything advocated in this book. So this does strike me as a teenager's suicide by gun being blamed on D&D. The blame has nothing to do with reality. The deaths happened when the parents went beyond the boundaries specifically set forth in the book. The book doesn't say "If they don't respond to the rod, get a staff to strike them with."

Also your one quote from the book doesn't unsay everything else it says -- cherry picking is easy.

Not really "cherry picking", when you quote the foreword of the book, you know, the place it states its intentions and qualifications. The first words that qualify the rest of the advice given.

And we both know your requested statistics don't exist.

See above edited post regarding bibles.

670,000 copies in circulation, plus available on the internet for free. You'd think if the book was that dangerous, we'd have more than 3 deaths.

My point being, it's a lousy book, with poor anecdotes, badly skewed religious notions, an absolute certainty of self-contained morality, and some actual fine observances of how modern childrearing ideas also do not produce healthy happy children.

For all that, it's still caused fewer deaths than the bible, which fits all three of your bullet points above.

1. It falsely presents its position as expert opinion.

These truths are not new, deep insights from the professional world of research, rather, the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules, the same technique God uses to train his children.

2. It patently claims that its methods are the only way right by 'God' making it religious fraud as well.

So, No, and yes.

3. It offers what is supposed to be expert instruction on an actual day to day activity and does so in such a way as leads to death if followed strictly.

Bull.

Thr3adcr4p wrote:

[Yeah, same thing happened with D&D books. More than one incident, must have been D&D's fault.

See, I'm still looking for the part in the D&D books where it says (a) "This is Professional Advice on How to Live Your Life," and (b) where it tells you to commit suicide.

I can find the Pearls' claims to (a) be child-rearing experts, and (b) to withold food from kids and beat them with rubber hoses.

Where does it say to leave you child naked in a barn for days at a time? Where does it say to whip your child for hours?

Where does it say to wrap your child in a blanket so tightly he suffocates to death?

The book actually specifically tells you not to use confinement/ imprisonment as a form of discipline, as all it teaches your children is how to go to jail when they grow up.

So far all I've seen about witholding food is a section on witholding sweets to get a child to give up a diaper. I'll keep looking for the section it says to starve them to death.

If this had been the case of one isolated incident, I'd be totally with you. The fact that we see a pattern of child deaths in association with the book sort of makes one look at that common denominator and wonder if maybe, in this case, it is a causation rather than simply a correlation.

Yeah, same thing happened with D&D books. More than one incident, must have been D&D's fault.

That was a bit of hyperbole on my part, more or less a paraphrase of the articles published about the "D&D deaths" back in the day. The linked article sounds almost exactly like the D&D articles- something bad happened, and we found these books in possession of the perpetrators.

The "D&D"-blamed death articles claimed that the game taught the players these things, drew them into occultism, etc., and blamed the game for the deaths.

I suggest that the parents in these cases were completely unfit, that following the prectices in this book did not and would not result in the death of their children, and that it was the parents themselves, as the ones who killed their kids, that are to blame. Furthermore, I think people blaming the book and its authors for these children's deaths are small minded and narrowvisioned.

All that said, I don't deny anyone's right to decide that the ideas presented in this book are troubling or even unnacceptable. But to say the book caused the deaths is even more troubling to me.

Thr3adcr4p wrote:

The devil's in that game, I tell you.

It has instructions on how to cast spells, summon demons...

The main difference being that three separate sets of players are not on trial for using those instructions only to find that actual demons appeared. Even if they follow them too many times, or too avidly. Whereas at least three sets of parents are/have been on trial for following the Pearls' instructions a bit too enthusiastically and ending up with dead kids.

Likewise, the D&D books state up front that it's a fantasy game. The Pearls present themselves as child-rearing experts.

You're comparing apples and aardvarks.

No, kids died. It was the (d&d/"child training") book's fault. apples=apples.

Nowehere in that book did it instruct the parents to beat their kids to death. In fact, in several places it speaks out against striking in anger, which is most likely what these parents did.

Did you know that playing D&D causes children to commit murder and suicide?

No, really, there were these kids that murdered some people and they found D&D books in their rooms.

Same with suicide.

The devil's in that game, I tell you.

It has instructions on how to cast spells, summon demons, and I hear it's all about how to kill people and rob their homes.

The guys who wrote this stuff should be sued/arrested and the books need to be burned.

Just remember folks, my fellow podcasters and game buddies from Flagons and Dragons will be there. If you have any gifts for me, just pass them along to the guys and they'll get them to me.

A Gift, you say, reminds me of that old Wookie song "What do you get a Wookie for Christmas (when he already owns a comb)?"

What do you get a zombie for GenCon
when he's already got a brain?
What do you get in a hurry
for a hungry kinda fellow?
Maybe a mind flayer flurry
or a fresh squeezed martian mellow.
Maybe a snack of insane
or nice frontal lobe BonBon?

Cool. It's like Vladicu never left.

One doesn't stand by a stream of consciousness paragraph and wonder wither it ambles, nor seek shelter in the corpulent flesh of a paladin ethics thread hoping for Sense and Sensiblilty to conquer War and Peace because southern laides are hotter and thus always lose by opined comparative religiousity.

The reluctant fish ambles aimlessly through Seoni pine bush flavored gestalt liquidity while bearing three thousand plus w squidheaded marsupial offspring each named Bob and the sequential numeration of their birth in vain hopes that Buckaroo Banzai could vanquish Remo Williams but alas Remo Williams works for the Emperor of America and Buckaroo is a brain surgeon and therefore smart not strong.

You did not actually have fun. You only simulated the feeling of fun. It has been scientifically proven that playing D&D 4e cannot be actual fun. It has also been scientifically proven that 3e fun was wrongbadfun, so don't bother trying Pathfinder either, it won't be the kind of fun you're supposed to be having.

Thr3adcr4p wrote:

Woah, I have been summoned again!!!

Brian, Pres Man, I am here for you. Your love for each other warms my heart, feeds my soul, and makes me grow more powerful with each post.

Threadcrapping to protest a perceived threadcrap? Puerile.

It's what I do (blushes a darker shade of brown-green.)

Woah, I have been summoned again!!!

Brian, Pres Man, I am here for you. Your love for each other warms my heart, feeds my soul, and makes me grow more powerful with each post.

What??!?? This is my bemused look.

My nature forbids me from declaring anything about the next poster.

"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."
-Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin

Only to excuse my distinctive aroma.

The next poster is once smurfed smurfette right on the smurf.

I get to be the drummer because I'm sexy like that! Or is it because the drummer's the moody one. Whatever. (Blows hair away from eyes)

Did you ever notice that Drittz was exhiled from mezzheaven for carrying two swords? It's so unfair, like that time when Edward got Bella instead of Jacob. I mean who here doesn't like a Heathy-like warwolf shaman son of a gun? I mean, who came up with the whole idea of sparkly vampires, and was it just a product placement ad for Sparkle paper towels?

Thanks for playing, you stupid trolls.

Repeatedly spamming French connections to the Tarrasque thread has summoned me. Who do I have to eat to get it to stop?

RE: Cruelty angle

Prove that plants can't feel anything. It takes a lot longer for them to actually die than it takes animals. What if they feel pain that whole time, as pain relates to plants? Just because they don't have muscular systems to move...

edit: interesting related ? study

G+&*+*it, I'm like 69 posts late in this thread.

Hitler did it too.

Those guys are like Nazis.

It's like what happened to the Jews all over.

I'll restart the Edition Warz! Epic Battles of No Consequence For Everyone!!!!

I'm a big fan of Vomit Dude and Dead Horse. The Edition Wars spawned me.

I

WTF is wrong with fecomancers? My "maker" was one.

See "thread-crap".

You called?

Paizo has really helped to open my eyes. Before finding my way here, I never really understood just how much my own existence makes the universe a better place. You can all thank me by sending me money, hookers, booze, or blow, in that order.

Ok, but don't blame me if after receiving a case full of money, you also get a case with a dead hooker in it due to all the booze & blow I consumed while waiting to send to you causes me to forget the air holes.

Previous post brought to you by yours truly

Aubrey the Failformed: You apparently think my character has some bearing on my mathematical analysis of the system, so...no.

I he "fail-formed" because he agreed with 2 of your 3 points? Or because he disagreed with your last point?

And this post has nothing to do with mathematical analysis of the game.

I guess discussion of anything you post is a waste of everybody's time. Maybe I should post a thread entitled "Stop responding to Psychic_Robot's Posts: He doesn't want anyone's input anyway."
I bet I'd get as much response and flaming going on there.

Seriously, though, I hope you're getting vast amounts of enjoyment from this game you're playing. Keep posting your ideas and maybe some of the more civilized people here will find a way to discuss them around all of the s$+! storm you summon every time you post in a socially abhorrent way.

Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?

#1 This is the 4E forum of the boards. It is designed to discuss 4E.

#2 Paizo obviously wants a place for the 4E fans among its customers to be able to come without insults and degredation, as proven by the numerous posts they have made regarding this forum.
#3 Threadcrapping is coming into a thread and repeatedly posting negative comments without any relevance to the topic at hand.

Don't EVER tell these guys they should just leave. I value Paizo way to much to have someone tell their customers they are not welcome on this board, and you should too. We are a small enough community as it is, we do not need to be losing members over YOUR ego.

On the one hand, someone like you is NEVER going to cause someone as loyal and sharp as Sebastian to leave the site. On the other hand, people posting that kind of "if you like 4E why are you here" crappy posts have already driven away some new board members, and this type of action loses business for Paizo.

Honestly, what prize do you win by losing customers for Paizo?

Now, this post-this post is a threadcrapping response to your trollish behavior. See? This is what Threadcrapping looks like!

I don't know too much about the products he worked on, but I was a never a big fan of his posting style (or his interests based on what he posted about) so I only have apathy. Though good luck on his new endeavors and all that!

Sorry for (comparatively) negative post in an otherwise love-fest. Carry on!

Dunnnn Dun Dunnnnnn Dun! Who summoned me?

Sometimes you just have to let the jokers joke and the trolls troll.

And us do our things, sadly.

The law is an ass! Even an arse!

Meeeee!!! Look what you made me do!

Man, Vomit Guy used to be all about the fans...and the vomit.

He's getting way too political.

I guess having a mortgage and a kid on the way can really change a man.

Sir Spitsalot: Paladin-at-Law wrote:

Evilturnip wrote:

Dead Horse has already appeared.

Can Vomit Guy be far behind?

As Mr. Guy's legal counsel I can clearly state that he will NOT be making an appearance in this thread. Mr. Guy has a unique form of humorous dialogue which has proven too much for the delicate constitutions of some of the residents of these message boards, hereinafter referred to as The Complaintiffs. In the interest of The Complaintiffs safety, as well as the well-being of their mental faculties, Mr. Guy will remain in exile in the Off Topic section of the aforementioned boards.

Heeeereee I comeeee to save the Dayyyyyyyyy!!!!!

Edit: Whoops, I slipped on something as I was saying that. Personal hazard, I guess.

When you make up an alias so you can be just like Vomit Guy and Dead Horse!

I'm lonely. Will you be my friend?

Dammit, lookit what yu made muh do!!

It's 4e, dude. You'll never die in the first place.

Ahhhh... look what you made me do....