RPG Superstar 2013 Dedicated Voter. Pathfinder Society Member. 72 posts (73 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 1 alias.
You're reading it right, but the major benefit of Strangler over Rapid Grappler is you can get Strangler at level 3 (2 if you take combat trick for it), whereas RG isn't obtainable for a rogue until lvl 12 (pesky +9 bab requirement).
Thanks very much Solspiral. I had priced it based on a couple items that grant bite attacks, so I'm not sure if upping the price is the way to go, and there is a line in there about improving existing bite attacks, but yeah, I really love the item, just couldn't think of anything to give it extra oomf without making it silly.
Aura Faint Transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot Head; Price 12,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This iron harness is studded with rune etched crocodile teeth, and when worn over the lower jaw, forces the wearer’s face into a ghastly grin.
The wearer gains a bite attack as a primary natural attack. This attack deals 1d4 points of piercing damage for a Medium wearer or 1d3 points of damage for a Small wearer. If the wearer already has a bite attack, the damage of that bite attack increases by one step.
In addition, when grappling a foe of its size or smaller, the wearer can perform a death roll upon successfully maintaining the grapple. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The wearer inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone.
Construction Requirements Craft Wonderous Item, Lockjaw; Cost 6000 gp
I had a player with a Kensai Magus who had Spell perfection Vampiric Touch and a vicious weapon. The Yo-yoing hitpoints were a pain for him to keep track of but it was rather effective.
I've been looking at several combat maneuver using characters recently, A Tetori Monk, an Oracle of Battle Sunder Monkey, a Tripping Lore Master, a Dirty Trick and Steal Maneuver Master, and I got to looking at the support maneuvers have gotten since the release of core. You can do a lot more with maneuvers now than ever before, between maneuver focused archetypes and feats like Ki throw, Spinning throw, Body Shield etc. there's some mighty fun things you can do with maneuvers.
What else do people want to use their CMB for? What new maneuvers or new uses of old maneuvers can people think of?
Personally, I'd love to see some kind of maneuver for "hitching a ride" on big monsters, Shadow of the Colossus style, climbing to their weak spot and giving them what-for.
Or a use of grapple that lets you pull some more unorthodox wrestling moves, suplexing, power bombing, whatever that luchador move is called where they spin around your shoulders then throw you ten feet.
Dirty Trick and Steal need some love in the different uses department, maybe a way to kick dust in your opponents face as you move in for the kill or snatch something off an enemy's belt and immediately toss it to a companion.
Right, from grapple itself..which you earlier said is being overwritten by the 'specific' from Grab. You cant have it both ways. This is the door I walked through.
The 'specific' from grab does NOT state you get damage + normal grapple actions. It does not state you get damage+damage. It does not state you get damage+move. It does not state you get damage+pin.
So: what DOES it state? You get damage. You said the specific overrides the general. THAT is the specific.
Note: at this point I am playing devil's advocate. I have my own different interpretation which you already rejected.
- Gauss
The specific states
-automatic damage (from other listings of the word automatic in the rules without indication of a furthur action this indicates that it isn't an action at all)
-it states that you get said damage on each successful grapple check. Part of a successful grapple check is applying one of those options.
With your interpretation, a creature with grab can not move, pin, or tie up (for higher int creatures with grab) since it doesn't specifically state you can do those things in grab. Making grab super extra worse.
Note to your note: I figured as much from your farscape quoting earlier. Still needs to be hammered out for future finders of this thread. And for Tetori monks everywhere
Actually you are reinterpreting it more than I am. You are outright applying text that does not exist. NOTHING in the text states you are getting damage AND damage.
Now, my 'reinterpretation' as you call it is just my attempt at trying to explain it to you. As I read it it gets exactly one thing and one thing only...DAMAGE. Not damage x2. Not damage +move, not damage +pin. Just, damage. Nothing there even states it gets the standard options.
You are the one giving it extra options. Personally, I believe the game designers did not intend to reduce a creatures ability to pin or move so I would give it both OPTIONS but...by RAW, it have neither of those options because Grab does not say it does.
You opened the door..I just stepped through.
- Gauss
Ok. From Grapple itself
Quote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Grab adds the damage of the attack that established the grapple automatically. Nothing in grab stops you from pinning moving etc. Dealing damage twice is probably the least horrible thing a monster could do. Tigers don't stop killing their prey when they drag them off into the woods.
In fact, it doesn't state you CAN choose the damage option either. I read it that it is either it has no choice (defactor forced to choose damage option) or that it has a choice but the text is just pointing out how the damage works.
You are giving it something extra that is not in the text...double damage.
- Gauss
Your interpretation requires much more reinterpretation than mine does. If either of your explanations were correct there would need to be further text for evidence. Mine works without such text as each successful grapple check explains everything.
Except they have to make all 3or 4 rolls not one check that depending on size may be even easier than attacking to pull off especially with the +5 if they don't escape on their turn.
Yep. Players should fear being grappled. Without it, it is never a good idea for a monster to grapple against a party.
Scourge you do realize just how brutal your making things with construct if you go that route allowing them 3 damages off one roll each round
Quite. Otherwise, grappling is ALWAYS the worst option for monsters. While it sits and grapples one PC the rest of the party gathers round and begins the curb stomping process.
It's no worse than something with 3 or 4 primary natural attack full attacking.
You are correct that specific trumps general. But specific MUST state that it is doing something different.
Either:
A) Creatures with grab have no choice on which option they perform (move, damage, pin) because they must select 'damage'.
OR
B) Creatures with grab have a choice on which option, the text is just reinforcing the damage option with some extra verbage.
OR
C) Creatures with grab have a choice on which option they perform (move, damage, pin) IN ADDITION to damage.
Nothing in the Grab text states they get C. So either it is A or B. Since the text stated 'conduct the grab normally' then I believe it means it is B.
- Gauss
It does. Here:
Quote:
f the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
The problem with the 'paradox' is that you are actually creating it since you are not performing the maintain action first. THAT is what creates the paradox.
Anyhow, the rules do not explicitly state it, you are welcome to play as you like. In my games, if you do not use your maintain action first..you are not maintaining. I believe a number of people run it that way.
- Gauss
You run into issues when Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler come into play. Because then you can attack (or full full attack with RG) AND maintain, no questions asked.
Round 1:
Make attack (assume success)
Apply damage
If you have grab with that limb make grappple check (assume success)
If you have constrict, apply constrict damage
Round 2+:
Make grapple check to maintain (assume success)
Choose option from grapple list (move pin etc.)
Apply result
Apply damage from limb (that is grappling) (due to grab)
If you have constrict apply damage from constrict
If you have rake, make rake attacks
- Gauss
My additions are bolded
You deal damage from grab no matter what you do when maintaining. If you choose the damage option you deal damage twice.
I did not say it was in the rules on constrict. I said that section (ie: sentance) is ABOUT constrict. The section of grab you quoted was dealing with constrict (at least in part). You cannot ignore the entirety of the grapple rules that grab uses.
- Gauss
The general rule about rules is Specific Trumps General. Always has been.
The general grapple rules are indeed changed when grab gets involved.
Lets just post the whole thing here shall we:
Quote:
Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
No problem here.
Quote:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Here's where things get sticky, because this:
Quote:
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.
is refering to the previous paragraph. Otherwise the whole thing makes no sense.
Quote:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Here we see that without constrict it deals the damage that established the hold (bite or claw in the case of our Tiger) but if it was say, a Giant constrictor snake, it would deal its bite damage as well as its constrict.
Quote:
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line.
Also: you can't rake on a pounce. You need to be maintaining, not initiating.
nothing about maintain. your target needs to already be grappled at the beginning of your turn.
that can be because THEY initiated a grapple against you, and now your turn's coming up.
which makes sense, grappling a lion/tiger doesn't seem like a walk in the park.
A situation I didn't consider. But my point still stands about pounce.
Check my link again. That's right from Grab. Saying if you constrict you deal constrict damage as well as grab damage. If you do not constrict (whic can only happen if you don't Have constrict) you only do grab damage.
As far as Rake goes this:
Quote:
In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
I can see is being interpreted either way. Free could imply you get those as a free action on top of whatever you do to maintain the grapple but I could also see it being interpreted as Quandary says.
Also: you can't rake on a pounce. You need to be maintaining, not initiating.
Quote:
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
bolded is mine. If you choose the damage option you deal damage for grab AND from choosing that option.
If they hit you get three attempts to *Initiate* a grapple.
And yes you do extra damage with the attack that initiated for every subsequent successful check to maintain the grapple no matter what you do (move, pin, damage, etc.)
One of my players brought up the idea of using the Drag combat manouver to move a comrade away from an enemy and toward the cleric. Normally, moving out of a threatened area provokes, but using the Drag combat maneuver without Greater Drag doesn't cause the moved target to provoke. Is this a legitimate tactic? Is there a way to willingly let the combat manouver happen (like with willingly failing a save against a spell) or would the Dragger still have to beat the Dragged's CMD?
Especially considering if the monster is pouring all that effort into on grappled PC, the rest of the party has free reign to gather round and begin the curbstomping.
[Edit]Damn, jumped the gun. I reread solo tactics. Your allies need to meet the prereqs for the feat. So if you have other orc pcs raging then it works.
Ahh, I see now. I was thinking constricting was a choice making the second statement qualify the first. Now I realize that This:
Quote:
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.
Is a qualifying statement for this:
Quote:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
So grab always deals damage when you make a successful grapple check unless you're using the -20 chunk of the ability.
And this is simplified grapple rules. How did anyone keep this straight in 3.5?
Note that the snake has only one attack and that is occupied, so it can't actually use the damage action. A tiger or other creature with multiple attacks, however, could take one additional attack as the damage action.
I don't believe this is correct. The damage option for grappling states:
Quote:
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
You don't actually make an attack, you just deal damage equal to one of your natural attacks. The snake just bites down harder I suppose.
Unrelated to the above but it should be noted that the extra damage from grab doesn't happen unless the creature also has constrict.
Round 1. Snake bites and intiates grapple, does bite and constrict damage.
Round 2. Snake mantains grapple as standard action, does grapple action, grab, and constrict damage.
From my understanding (and I'm playing a Tetori monk in an upcoming game so I've had to learn the grapple rules inside and out) this is the correct case. If you have both grab AND constrict, anyone unlucky enough to be in this hapless PC's situation is in a bit of a pickle.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
Dimensional agility grapple is also the most amusing counter to flying enemies ever.
On another note, I've been thinking about trying out a Suli monk, using the favored class bonus to add some unarmed strike bonus damage. I'm not sure if it would ever be worth it but it seems like a cool idea. Any thoughts?
Quote:
Evil Wizard: "Muahaha! you'll never reach me up here puny mortals I shal-
*BAMF*
Evil Wizard "Bamf?"
Tetory: "Surprise!"
Evil Wizard: "Oh Gods! I need those bones for living!"
*ahem*
Suli are neat but with Elemental assault only usable once per day it's not worth you FCB. You'll get far more milage out of the hp or even skill points
In the opening statment I was asking for the rationale behind banning a class based on flavor when the flavor can be changed.
I have heard "I am the GM, and nobody better question me" or a similar response. I have heard good reasons for banning certain mechanics. I have heard good reasons to ban certain concepts. I have not heard a decent reason to ban a class based on flavor if the player can think of new flavor for class X, other than what Paizo assigned to it. The paladin might be hard to justify since the flavor and mechanics are tied together pretty closely, but more classes can easily be refluffed.
As I said in my earlier post, I don't allow Summoners. Not because of mechanics.
But because there is no satisfying way to separate the fluff from the mechanics. It's too ingrained in the Eidolon and the Summoner's own abilities. Period.
The only class I out and out ban from my campaign setting is the Summoner. Not because it's OMGHAX Broken, but because of the nature of extaplanar entities in this particular setting. They are pretty much the only class that I can't come up with a sufficiently satisfying refluffing to make them fit.
In my experience, if you're logical about your reasons and explain them to your players, they'll be pretty cool about it and play something else. More than anything, calm, constructive discussion can solve most problems like this.
are you going tetori? its the best grapple spec for a monk based character. and a dwarf would be a better choice mechanically, but hobgobblin is good also.
make sure you get dimensional agilty for your monk once you hit 13.
the best thing about tetori's is that they can grapple at all times, no joke. anti caster, able to circumvent terrain, able to grapple via a ghost touch amulet, the only time they wont grapple is when doing so would be detrimental. but the funny thing is that you can, with enough wealth, bypass things like ooz acid and other crazy things like that.
Yes. Tetori is the only reason I'm entertaining the idea of grappling at high levels. Without it there's too many win switches against grapplers
A couple friends are putting together a big 4 part Pathfinder game this year. 4 "modules" one each at levels 4, 8, 16, and 20.
I'm no stranger to Pathfinder but I want to give myself a challange. I'm looking to see if I can make a Tetori monk work through all four modules. What better place to get some feedback than in this thread!
I'm thinking a Pro-Wrestler style personalty for him, a kind of cross between Zangief, Minsc and that red haired guy from Jackie Chan Adventures.
Race: Hobgoblin
Str:18 (base17 +1 from lvl4)
Dex:14 (base14 +2racial)
Con:14 (base14 +2racial)
Int:7 (I'm crippling myself here but it fits the personality of the jolly dumb as a brick image I have for him)
Wis:16
Cha:12 (again, more for flavour than anything else, who's ever seen a wrestler that couldn't work the crowd at least a little)
Here's my feat progression so far broken up by each round, let me know what you think/how I can improve/why this is a dumb idea etc.
5: [open]
B6: Greater Grapple
7: Jawbreaker (maybe, helps shut down verbal only spells but there's other things I can do with my stunning fist attempts)
Round 3
Spoiler:
9: Rapid Grappler
B10: Pinning Knockout
11: Bonebreaker (again, maybe. Ability damage is gravy but I'm not sure if it's worth the prereq or if there's better things to do with the feat)
Round 4 and five are open as far as feats go except I'll be swapping out something to get abundant step back and picking up dimensional agility. The one thing I'm really concerned about is the few occasions where I'll be unable to grapple. How do I keep him useful in these situations?
Theoretical Grapple numbers are looking like this:
Spoiler:
Level 4: +12 =4(level)+4(str)+2(imp. grapple)+1(amulet of MF)+1 (hobgoblin FCB)
Level 8: +25=8(level)+6(str)+4(grtr. grapple)+1(amulet of MF) +4(grab)+2 (hobgoblin FCB)
Level 12: +32=12(level)+7(str)+4(grtr. grapple)+2(amulet of MF) +4(grab)+3 (hobgoblin FCB)
Level 16: +40=16(level)+9(str)+4(grtr. grapple)+3(amulet of MF) +4(grab) +4 (hobgoblin FCB)
Level 20: +50=20(level)+12(str)+4(grtr. grapple)+5(amulet of MF) +5 (hobgoblin FCB) +4(grab)
An additional floating +6 can be factored in from a few spells that add to grapple cmb
You can do it if you have the Grab ability, albeit at a -20.
Or you can take the Sntach feat but that wouldn't help much since you still take the -20 and can only snatch creatures three size categories or more smaller than you.
