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Undead

The Bane's page

61 posts (247 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 3 aliases.


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Quandary, Okay, I get where you are coming from now. I read the OP differently, and then add in my confusion of where you were speaking of CRB and where you were talking BB, I got really confused.

I didn't read the OP as how to bring in CRB concepts, but how to explain BB concepts, from the standpoint of a CRB GM to new players. Hence my original reply, where I said this,

"Spellcraft (INT): Understand magic effects and spells. All examples depict IDENTIFYING something imbued with magic.

Knowledge (Arcane): know things about symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts."

With the confusion, I realize why I like my BB set! Maybe one day I will graduate, but doubtful.

Best, and thanks for clearing that up for me Quandary,
TB


Quandary, are you discussing Beginner Box or Core? Seems you are mixing and matching at times, but it could be from my limited Wizardly play of BB. There is terribly little in the skill description in BB, in fact I pretty much quoted it, but Core may have alot more inconsistencies. I wouldn't know because I don't play it (Core).

For me it just boils down to, for BB, if a non-wizard could learn it, it falls into Knowledge. If a non-wizard couldn't learn it, its Spellcraft. But sure, you could boil them together, just depends on what you like I suppose.

I consider Spellcraft the skill of combining/using magic, and effect base skill. Like being able to correctly infuse magic into the ingredients into a health potion. Knowledge: Arcane could tell you what ingredients to combine, or were combined. But, without Spellcraft it would just be a smoothy.

But again, a case could be made for combining each or leaving them individual skills IMHO.


I thought I had this figured out, but alas, this discussion just added to my BB confusion. So allow me to paraphrase and someone say Yay/Nay.

Spellcraft (INT): Understand magic effects and spells. All examples depict IDENTIFYING something imbued with magic.

Knowledge (Arcane): know things about symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts.

They seem distinct enough for me. With Knowledge I don't have to be a Wizard to tell you about them; there history, who first made one, etc. I would need Spellcraft to identify what magic it takes to reproduce it, and actually reproduce it, correct?

Or that's how I read it. Yay/Nay?

Best,
TB


"Y'all realize this is the Beginner Box section of the message boards, right?"

Apparently they do not and it drives me nuts. It adds tons of confusion to "Beginners".


Once again, we are getting Core in Beginner Box...


As the title suggests, I am trying to gauge interest in a Pathfinder Beginner Box, within a home brew setting that has an E6 (E5 in this case) vibe. I am considering allowing EdOwar's Class Conversions as well.

So, is there, any interest?

The Bane


2 people marked this as a favorite.

See page 35 of the Hero's Handbook for jumping. It is an Acrobatics Skill Check and gives some general DCs.

For the most part PFBB goes with DCs like so:

DC05 - Why bother, super simple. Everyone has a chance to do it.
DC10 - Really easy. Figure anyone (Taking 10) can do it with time.
DC15 - Basic. Most trained people can do this regularly
DC20 - Tough. You better have some skill at whatever it is to do it reliably.
DC30 - Really tough. Might need some assistance to accomplish.

IMHO, sliding scale DCs (DCs based on character levels) make leveling pointless. What I mean by this is if I find a Tough lock (DC20-25) and I just can't get it at first level, I should figure that Tough locks will always be that DC range. Consistency is better, again IMHO, than making Tough locks DC30-35 once I am level 6. Why did I grind to level 6 if I am just going to encounter, and have the same chance of cracking, the same difficulty of lock?!

Hope that makes sense and helps a bit.

TB


Just for clarification, the Beginner Box doesn't have that rule/feat as far as I know. The link provided was to the full version of PF's SRD.

That said, I often pull rules/feats/etc. from the SRD. Just keep in mind, that like what happens to me, some people play the, "Well you allowed so and so rule, I want to use such and such rule from the SRD."

Best,
TB


Gordon,

You can check out the Play by Forum threads here if you'd like. There are a multitude of games, but I don't know if any Beginner Box games are recruiting at the moment.

Best,
The Bane


Calist looked down at Rayalai's side when he glanced at it and answered him in reverse.

With a smirk he began,"You don't."

He looked to Navaris and back, "Well met. I do not believe your your wound is fatal, but if we don't tend to it, it may become septic."

He walked over to the water, knelt, and placed his hands in the water near where Navaris was washing, "Comforting isn't it?" he asked.

"Some," Navaris admitted.

Calist stood and turned back to Rayalai, oblivious of the threat of the rapier, "I know, because it has happened to me, and eventually you, if I don't miss my guess." Calist unconsciously fiddled at the emblem on his belt.

See image in my last post to see what I mean by the emblem, which is what I am referring to. Also, a Perception Check could be in order as well, if you wanted to make one.


Is the 5' step in the Beginner Box?

*Goes to pull out copy of Game Master's Guide...*


Rayalai and Navaris set out North. The hills becoming less prevalent and less steep as they went, as well as the woods thinning slightly. Rayalai kept an eye out for any game that could provide sustenance as they went.

Survival:
1d20 + 5 ⇒ (15) + 5 = 20

Here and there along the way they found berries and mushrooms and stored them. Just as the land opened up onto flush grasslands, the small party spooked a small group of wild boar. With quick reaction and deadly aim, Rayalai fell the tusked animal with a well placed crossbow shot.

Navaris gutted the animal and took the hocks. She tied them together at the ankle and slung them over her pack.

Hog Meat:
Properly fixed, the hog will provide 3 days worth of food for the two of them.

As evening fell, the duo found themselves out in the sprawling green fields North of the forested hills and set about setting up camp. Navaris began slow cooking the hog's hind quarters over a small fire. Though they had eaten today, the hog smoked all night would provide them dried food for another three days.

Navaris adjusted the hocks, "So how do you propose we handle the night?" she asked. "It will be drawing dark soon."

OOC:
The Core rules handle survival with the skill of the same name. It is based on WIS, and the closest thing I could find was Perception, which makes the most sense. Everyday of travel that you decide to hunt, you have to move at half speed though.

So for food, you now have three days each of trail rations, and in the morning will have three days worth of dried hog meat (Six days of food divided by two). I am not too worried about water in this part of the world. Rivers, streams, and artisan springs are common.

Now, you find yourselves in Hex3931 and night is setting in. If you want to, you can clear the four adjacent hexes of the FOW (Fog Of War), since your Condition will be done in the morning assuming you have a restful night, I just need to know what hex you would want to end in after the four days of travel and I'll spin it all up (encounter, descriptions, and such).

I also need to know how you want to tackle the issue of rest.


DogFace (aka Keith) - I'm digging the current avatar, go with it. I am also with you and using Traits, and would prefer a straight PFBB game. I had just thrown it out there in case everyone else... wait, is it just the two of us?... wanted to use it.

I am waiting on Hairy to approve, alter, or deny the Goblin Dog Skeletons before I pick between Drizzle or Drendal.

The idea of playing Drizzle to your Dogface makes me think of Rastlin and Caramon Majere from Dragonlance. Though I didn't read much of that when I was young, those two characters stick out in my memory. All I really recall was twins where one was weak and completely enthralled with magic, the other big and strong, kinda like a protective older brother, though they were twins.

Are we going to be able to push forward or are we going to have to see about getting more players?

TB


It's me again Margarette...

I added the skeletal template to the Goblin Dog, does this pass muster?
I believe he could create and command 3 of these, so...
Guess what's in his sack?

CR 1/3 SKELETAL GOBLIN DOG (NEUTRAL EVIL / SKELETON)

XP 135
N Medium Animal
Init +7; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
DEFENSES
--------------------
AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 3 (1d8-1)
Fort N/A, Ref +4, Will +2
Immune cold, DR 5/bludgeoning and immunity to cold
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +2 (1d6+2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15 (+2), Dex 16 (+3), Con N/A, Int N/A, Wis 10 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
Base Atk +0
Feats Improved Initiative
Skills None
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
None


See edits to my above post. Wondering, are there stats for a skeletal Goblin Dog?! Wouldn't even mind playing this little fellow. He grew on me as I was working him out.

TB


GM-Hairy wrote:

You are allowed to play all the classes so if you wanted to play a Goblin Rogue or Wizard etc thats all cool.

The only thing that is different is that you are playing as a Goblin Race instead of a Elf, Dwarf or Human.

Just to make sure that everyone realised that.

Rodger, taking that we can use any class in the PFBB books, but I suspect that anything other than a Fighter or Barbarian is going to be exceptionally weak. But hey, if you don't mind, I'll roll up another goblin character just to see what I can come up with.

TB

Just for kicks and grins:

STR 4d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 1, 2) = 5 4 (-2) 2 Enfeeble?!
DEX 4d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 6, 5) = 16 14 (+4) 18 But Quick?!
CON 4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 6, 3) = 16 13
INT 4d6 ⇒ (3, 3, 5, 6) = 17 14
WIS 4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 2, 2) = 9 08 Not a Cleric!
CHR 4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 6, 6) = 19 18 (-2) 16 Hansome/Purdy
GOLD 3d6 ⇒ (5, 3, 5) = 13 130gp

Okay, so I had to move some Ability Scores around cause I couldn't have a STR of 2 in Hero Lab. Quit buying gear too, because somehow I ended up having more money I started with. The program says I have 137 after buying whats on this sheet... strange.

Drizzle (Lawful Evil / Goblin Wizard 1)

An aging Necrotic Shaman (Wizard) of the Licktoad clan, Drizzle walks with a hunched back and a staff, but even the younglings know better to press their luck with the old timer, as he can burst them into flame, sick his skeletal dog corpses on you, or bore you to death with Licktoad history.

Initiative +1; Speed 30 ft. (6 sq.); CR 1/2; HP 6
Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +0
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 11. . (+1 Dex, +1 size)
Fort -3, Ref +1, Will +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Melee Arcane Bond Quarterstaff +2 (1d4/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +1 (1d3/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +1 (1d3/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +1 (1d2/20/x2)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +2 (1d6/19-20/x2)
Wizard Spells Known (CL 1, 1 melee touch, 2 ranged touch):
1 (2/day) Disguise Self (DC 15), Mount
0 (at will) Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Ray of Frost, Read Magic (DC 14)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 0, Dex +1, Con -3, Int +4, Wis 0, Cha +1
Skills Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (History) +8, Knowledge (Local) +8, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Ride +5, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +9
Feats Command Undead (7/day) (DC 11), Toughness +3
Equipment Adventurer's Kit, Alchemist's Fire (3), Backpack (empty), Bedroll, Belt Pouch (empty), Bolts, Crossbow (20), Crossbow, Light, Dagger, Dagger, Flint and Steel, Sack (full of Goblin Dog bones), Spellbook, Tindertwig (6), Torch (10), Trail Rations (5), Waterskin, 0gps
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Bond: Masterwork Quarterstaff This item is automatically added to your character on the Weapons tab.

Once per day, you can use it to cast any one spell in your spellbook. You don't have to prepare this spell ahead of time - using the bonded item is like an emergency backup
Command Undead (7/day) (DC 11) Channel energy can take control of undead.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark up to 60 feet. This works like normal vision, but it's only in shades of gray.
Grave Touch (7/day) Melee touch attack, shakes then frightens target.
Necromancy The dread and feared necromancer commands undead and uses the foul power of unlife against his enemies.
Worships The Chain-Forger

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


@Hairy

I do not require Traits or more weapons options, but if we go that route I would take the following:

Trait: Unnatural Presence. Your prolonged association with alien forces leaks from your pores.
Benefit: You can use your Intimidate skill to demoralize animals and vermin; Intimidate is a class skill for you.
Changing Knowledge (Dungeoneering) for Intimidate (1 rank)

Weapons: Switch Short Sword for Flail and regain 2gps
Flail +3(1d6+1/20/x2,Trip/Disarm)

I would also have to become known as: Drendal, The Rat Stomper" for the Trait... Mwah ha ha

"Fear me dog and rat alike, I am Drendal, 'The Rat Stomper'!"

@Keith

Yea, the skill selection is kinda limited on these little boogers. We could switch a feat around to a skill focus to take a skill that is more to your liking.

Traits are here, if your interested. Perhaps because of your looks your were bullied as a whelp and Reactionary? Or, even a Chance Survivor? based on your "Dog Faced" disfigurement?

Love the name by the way!

The Bane


Rayalai's shaft smashed into the lithe beast's shoulder, twisting its torso as it did. A similar blow would have fell a beast twice its size, but it kept coming, toughs of earth and leaves rising behind it in small plumes.

It did not charge headlong into Rayalai as an unintelligent beast would have done, but skirted by at arms length, just in range of a slashing blow. The attack, as unorthodoxy as the approach, did not go for vitals, but rather came in low projected at Rayalai's ankle.

Attack Roll:
1d20 + 4 ⇒ (20) + 4 = 24

The attack struck surprisingly hard, striking Rayalai in the achilles tendon. The pain quickly, and sharply, ran up his calf and though his thigh, bringing him to a knee.

Effect and OOC:
Solo adventures can be quite deadly I have found, so I have chosen, based on this creatures tactics, to hand wave damage and impose the Staggered Condition upon you. Especially considering it was a Critical Hit.

Staggered: wrote:
A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition.

Which I think is fair, but would like your input as well. I think attacks should be able to be done with the intent to impose a condition rather than damage. Such tactics I would consider usable by both PCs and NPCs. Thoughts?

So, he is still in range, just over you left shoulder, but you have no melee weapon drawn and that counts as a move action (so no attack if you draw a weapon, you could have stuck your sword in the ground in preparation and I would have allowed an attack with it.) You are also kneeling which would take an action to rise. You could attempt to hit it with the crossbow from your position, but that would be an improvised weapon (-4 to hit). I'll rule it a 1d4+Str damage bludgeoning weapon, but if you crit you may damage it. Fair?

Again, I am approachable to input, just wanted to put this out there so you can see where I am coming from and my thoughts behind my rulings.


Drendal (Neutral Evil / Goblin Fighter 1)

Drendal is not exceptionally strong, but what he lacks in strength he makes up for with speed and resilience. Standing 4'1" tall, his bulbous football shaped head engulfs his beady black eyes. His gear is grungy and covered in debris, but mechanically sound. He is a vet, or claims to be one, as others claim the dings and scratches in his shield were placed there by he himself.

Initiative +3; Speed 30 ft. (6 sq.); CR 1/2; HP 16
Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 16. . (+4 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Melee Battleaxe +3 (1d6+1/20/x3) and
. . Dagger +3 (1d3+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +3 (1d2+1/20/x2)
Ranged Sling +5 (1d3+1/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +1
Skills Heal +3, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Ride +11, Stealth +11
Feats Power Attack -1/+2, Toughness +3
Equipment Adventurer's Kit, Backpack (empty), Battleaxe, Bedroll, Belt Pouch (empty), Bullets, Sling (20), Caltrops (2), Chain Shirt, Dagger, Flint and Steel, Oil (2), Rope, Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Shield, Light Steel, Sling, Torch (10), Trail Rations (5), Waterskin, 9gps
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark up to 60 feet. This works like normal vision, but it's only in shades of gray.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Worships The Ravagering Hunter

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


After making Keith's character, I found a way to make them as actual characters in Hero Lab instead of Companions, so I want to remake Drendal. Should have him up shortly. Besides, I think I did his equipment wrong, so off I go!

TB


Feel free to request any changes, I have it saved so it will be easy to modify. I went with a Scimitar for the added critical threat range.

Keith (Neutral)

Goblins are hateful, suspicious creatures about 4 feet tall. They prefer to dwell in caves or buildings abandoned by others. They love fire, hate dogs and horses, and believe that writing steals the words from your head.

Initiative +7; Speed 30/20 ft. (6/4 sq.); CR 1/2; HP 12
Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +0
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17. . (+5 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Melee Dagger +4 (1d3+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +4 (1d3+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Scimitar +4 (1d4+2/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d2+2/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str +2, Dex +3, Con +2, Int +1, Wis 0, Cha -4
Skills Climb +6, Ride +11, Stealth +11
Feats Improved Initiative, Power Attack -1/+2
Equipment Adventurer's Kit, Backpack (empty), Bedroll, Belt Pouch (empty), Caltrops (2), Dagger (2), Flint and Steel, Sack (empty), Scale Mail, Scimitar, Light Steel Shield, Torch (10), Trail Rations (5), Waterskin (1)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark up to 60 feet. This works like normal vision, but it's only in shades of gray.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
12 GPs

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


Okay after racial modifiers...

Str 15
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 03

Wow, that Charisma is a wing-dinger!

So let's see what we gets....

TB


Keith, you can go with a Pregen if you like, but I will offer up my Hero Lab creativity to you. I like building PFBB characters actually. Just roll up attributes and tell me a class and I will post a sheet here for you to copy/paste.

Heck you could even take Drendal as a character. Believe it or not, I prefer characters with mostly average attributes with maybe even a bad one mixed in. It is more fun to play, at least for me. I tend to relate to the less than perfect and find it challenging to play them.

And, yes, I am assuming it is PFBB because there was no reference to the CMD/CMB anywhere in Hairy's post. If I am wrong... oops, disregard.

Happy Gaming,
The Bane


Drendel (Neutral Evil / Goblin Fighter)

Goblins are hateful, suspicious creatures about 4 feet tall. They prefer to dwell in caves or buildings abandoned by others. They love fire, hate dogs and horses, and believe that writing steals the words from your head.

Initiative +7; Speed 30/20 ft. (6/4 sq.); CR 1/2; HP 8
Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18. . (+5 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Melee Shortsword +3 (1d4+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +3 (1d2+1/20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +5 (1d4/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +1
Skills Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Ride +7, Stealth +11, Swim +5
Feats Improved Initiative, Shield Focus
Equipment Adventurer's Kit, Arrows (20), Backpack (empty), Bedroll, Belt Pouch (empty), Caltrops (2), Rope, Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Scale Mail, Shield, Light Steel, Shortbow, Shortsword
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark up to 60 feet. This works like normal vision, but it's only in shades of gray.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Speaks Goblin, Common, Orc
Worships The Ravagering Hunter

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


Drezdle (Neutral Evil Goblin)

Initiative +7; Speed 30/20 ft. (6/4 sq.); CR 1/2; HP 8
Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18. . (+5 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Melee Shortsword +3 (1d4+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +3 (1d2+1/20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +5 (1d4/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +1
Skills Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Ride +7, Stealth +11, Swim +5
Feats Improved Initiative, Shield Focus
Equipment Adventurer's Kit, Arrows (20), Backpack (empty), Bedroll, Belt Pouch (empty), Caltrops (2), Rope, Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Scale Mail, Shield, Light Steel, Shortbow, Shortsword
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark up to 60 feet. This works like normal vision, but it's only in shades of gray.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Worships The Ravagering Hunter
Speaks Goblin, Common, Orc

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


Out of curiosity...
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 5, 1) = 18: 17
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 5, 4) = 15: 13
4d6 ⇒ (5, 3, 3, 4) = 15: 12
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 5, 5) = 17: 14
4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 6, 5) = 16: 15
4d6 ⇒ (1, 5, 5, 5) = 16: 15
Wow... yea, let me see what I can come up with!


I don't know if you answered on the other thread, but is it going to be with PFBB rules or the full blown Core rules?

Best,
The Bane


Bobson wrote:
The items themselves don't matter at all. Some games do away with randomly rolling them up, and just using the existence of the slot for income purchases. You could just rename it from "medium/major magic item" to "small income stream/large income stream". So the black market would produce 2 magic items, a small income stream, and a large income stream. You can benefit from one income stream or magic item per district, if you make your roll.

BINGO! At least I wasn't reading into it. I think that this is my best course of action.

I like Suthainn's comments to, though I will probably hold off and see how it works as is first.

I appreciate everyone's input! Thanks!

The Bane


Okay, yea that makes sense. I also think I found the thread that you were talking about, or at least on that got me thinking. It basically suggests rather than actually filling the slots with magic items, if one of the slots are sold they take the average GP value of an item of that level from the Core book and convert it to BPs for the characters.

They say this average equates to 1/2BP, 5BP, and 20BP. One of the comments suggested 1/5/10 BP respectively. I could then consider them as "Sales Slots" instead of actual items, where the slots might be; Minor Sales, Medium Sales, Huge Sales, all of low level items that are actually in the PFBB books.

Questions: Could I, as an alternate, based on this:

"To give you...
Black Market (50 BP; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A number
of shops with secret and usually illegal or dangerous wares. City base
value +2,000; 2 minor items, 10BP/month; Economy +2, stability +1; Unrest +1."

Just call it 40BP for a Black Market? Where I would take the first month's BP income from the cost of the building? I think it would help to slow kingdom growth, but my concern is that it isn't enough of a break on the building for losing possibly 10BP/Month. I think I like what you suggest better, just thinking of options.

Alternately: the only concern I have of how you have it written up is that normally, if I recall correctly, those Medium and Major slots might not sell, with RAW, each month. You basically are saying that all Medium and Major items automatically sell. Or, is that why you went with 3/7BP instead of like 5/10BP?

Thanks a bunch by the way. I really like the idea! Just was wondering about a bit of it and thought getting answers now will help me explain it to the players.

Best,
The Bane


Based on the responses I got on the Kingmaker thread, where I asked what the value of Medium and Major Slots would be, HERE, I got this suggestion:

Philip Knowsley wrote:

Just a query - why not...instead of reducing BP costs of buildings - have

them produce the BP equivalent of the magic items, instead of the actual
items...?

That way, you're not actually messing with the outcome (except for
changing magic items for BP) of purchasing that building.
e.g. purchase of Black market gives you X magic items; or
purchase of Black market gives you X BP

The are a variety of posts in the Kingdom building section of this board
where people have said what BP they think should be used...

Cheers, hope you find the answer you're looking for...

From that I went to town searching the forums. I found a thread where people were taking the average GP value for Minor, Medium, and Major magic items out of the Core book, converting that to a BP equivalent, and just saying that a Minor = 1/2BP, Medium = 5BP, and a Major = 20BP. Someone later suggested, and I can't find the thread at the moment, that they were going to use 1BP/5BP/10BP, respectively.

So I got to thinking, scary at times I know, but instead of calling them Item Slots, why couldn't I call them Sales Slots? So that I would have buildings that may have; Low Sales, Medium Sales, or even High Sales of items that are in the Pathfinder Beginner Box Game Master's Guide? No changing or removing slots. No recalculating BPs. If they sell a "Major Item", it was just a banner month on sales of Minor magic items (ones in the PFBB GM Guide) and get 10BP, for example.

If the party wants to know what the items were, I can roll there (PFBB GM Guide) until I hit the GP equivalent and say, this is what was sold, did you buy any of it? Then take the equivalent BP back if they did. Or not let them buy it at all.

So, just trying to be clear, if a building has a Major Item slot, and the Core book says the average GP value of a Major Item is 40,000 GPs, I don't have a single (Not craft-able in the PFBB rules) item sitting there, we have 40,000 GPs worth of items in that building...

Thoughts?
The Bane


Can't really help you out with the melding of the BB scenario and the Kingmaker AP, but I can put you on the right path for the non-BB Classes!

EdOWar has converted all the Core Classes on his blog. If you look around on his blog you will also find the Races converted as well.

Good luck, and please let us know how it goes. I just started a solo BB Kingmaker style PbP game here myself in a home-brew setting and would love to hear how it goes. I am assuming you intend to transition to Core after level 5? FWIW, my solo game will be an E5 kind of affair.

Again, good luck!
The Bane


Philip Knowsley wrote:

Just a query - why not...instead of reducing BP costs of buildings - have

them produce the BP equivalent of the magic items, instead of the actual
items...?

Okay, I am a tad bit confused. Are you saying rather than having a building create a major magic item, it creates the same BP of minor magic items? OMG, that might be so simple it hurts... if I understand correctly. How did I miss it?!

Philip Knowsley wrote:

That way, you're not actually messing with the outcome (except for

changing magic items for BP) of purchasing that building.
e.g. purchase of Black market gives you X magic items; or
purchase of Black market gives you X BP

The are a variety of posts in the Kingdom building section of this board
where people have said what BP they think should be used...

Do you have a link or url?!

Thanks!
TB


Hey, out of curiosity and necessity, does anyone know how to start one of these Game Threads with the [Recruiting], [Discussion], etc. tabs at the top?

Best,
The Bane (TB)


I am relatively new to the forums, Pathfinder, and completely new to King Maker. I have played some 3.5 back in the day and have just recently found the Pathfinder Beginner Box (PFBB). PFBB scratches all my itches and I have NO desire to move on to Pathfinder Core.

What I want to do is start a home-brew King Maker style game, but with the E6 (E5 with PFBB) rules mentality. Basically, no PCs/NPCs will advance past 5th level, but will receive feats when they would have leveled beyond that.

Anyway, back on point, with a limitation of fifth level - Medium and Major Magic Slots don't fit. No one would be able to craft such high magic items in an E5 setting. So, I want to remove these slots from the buildings that have them but have NO idea how much to reduce the BP of the building.

I had considered just removing the offending buildings, but I want to keep Black Markets, Academies, Magic Shops, etc.

Does anyone have any idea how many BPs a Medium and Major Magic Slot is worth, so I can reduce the BP cost of buildings when I remove these slots?

Thanks in advance,
The Bane


Idilippy wrote:
"From these, I can't think of anything else that I can believe other than the caster levels listed in teh descriptions of the special abilities providing the caster level prerequisite for making and item with those abilities. Still, it's possible I am wrong, I don't deal with a ton of crafting from my players and I know it's an often debated subject."

Completely with you, but it would seem on first blush that the other part of the document (I'm using the PRD) are at odds with one another. Well, I surely did not intend to debate it, but instead discuss as I am too new to the creation rules to actually debate =) and like you haven't really haven't used the crafting while DMing or even Playing.

Idilippy wrote:
"I'd say the best bet is to see what other bonuses they provide and compare them to similar bonuses from other buildings. In the end it's not going to be an exact science, but by eyeballing other buildings you should be able to get a good figure on what an appropriate cost will be. The building list is in the second book, but some major ones are Black Markets, which provide both a medium and a major item slot, an Academy, which provides 2 medium slots, and a Magic Shop, which provides 2 medium and 1 major item slot. These would all be overpriced without medium and major item slots, but might otherwise be something you would want, particularly the Academy and Black Market. "

Yeah, I compared some of the costs last night. With all the other bonuses for each building, it was hard to tell what a Medium or Major Slot was worth. I see their (Academy & Black Market) value even without having all the magic slots though. I was even considering just removing the slots and leaving them priced as they are, except for maybe the Black Market. I think if I really drop the cost on the Black Market, getting bonuses on-the-cheap, it would add more of them to the setting and make it more Gritty feeling.

Maybe I will bounce on out to the King Maker Forum and see if anyone has any idea how many points a Medium or Major Magic Slot is worth...

Thanks for all the feedback thus-far too by the way!
The Bane


Idilippy wrote:
<snip>"If a player wants an item that can't be crafted with caster levels of 5 or less that is a free pass to make a quest out of it. Say you want a +1 flaming weapon(flaming is CL10), for example..."<snip>

That is just it, based on my perusal of many forums on the Pathfinder site, the CL10 for Flaming is NOT the Caster Level required to make it, but instead it is the average Caster Level of a Flaming <weapon> if found. So the average CL for any Flaming weapon found will be CL10.

It is said that this CL listing is there for quick reference only for Saves, Magic Resistance vs. Dispel Magic, etc.

It could be crafted by a second level Druid, for example, who had Craft Magic Arms and Armor and the Flame Blade spell with the necessary components, an enhanced sword (Master Work), and sufficient gold, using a DC as low as DC7! (5+ CL or 5+2=7) Granted, the weapon's magical effect, once created, could be easily dispelled and the cost in materials and gold would preclude most 2nd Level Druids I would think.

UPDATE: it does state, "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item" ~ for the item it would then be a DC15.

What I had mentioned earlier, based on the discussion on the PF forums again and Kradlum's response, was taking the Rules as Written (RAW) - the only un-wavable requirement is the Crafting Feat. So even if the Druid did not have the spell, he would only take a +5 penalty to its creation: DC12 (5+ 2CL +5 for a Missing Spell Component). This seems broken, but it seems to be a common interpretation by many.

UPDATE: it does state, "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item" ~ for the item would then be a DC20. The requirement to be CL10 does not exist though.

Not that I want to do it this way anyway, because I like low magic settings as I stated, and Flaming weapons would be all over the place if this was the case. But it is an interesting notion to think about.

Idilippy wrote:
"The best way to deal with them is probably to go through and reprice the magic item slot creating "buildings" that provide medium and major items and remove the medium and major item slots, leaving only minor. This would also, as a byproduct, remove any of the potential issues with a runaway magic item economy since getting loads of BP through mucking with the magic item economy will be much harder."

I agree though, this is probably my best approach all considering. But I haven't yet GM'd/Played in a King Maker style game so I really have no idea how much to reduce the cost of said building, or even what buildings have Medium/Major item slots right off the top of my head.

Thoughts?
The Bane


Kradlum wrote:

I see what you're trying to do but it doesn't make sense to be able to create the ring without someone casting the spell, otherwise, you're just forging a ring.

Think of it another way, by that method you could create any magic ring you wanted, just by adding +5 to the DC.

I tend to agree. You would think the spell would be non-negotiable to the crafting, as well as the associated crafting feat, and I am leaning toward that approach.

Though some rings and magic items, I believe (don't have my PF resources available), require more than just a single spell and feat for requirements, so there could be instances of multiple +5s to a DC. But yea, it is still far from perfect.

I was just trying to interpret the RAW since they seem to diverge from the 3.5 rules that I am a little more familiar with.

I suppose my options, if interpreted as above, is to go through all magic items and comparing what items have spell requirements within the E5 spell range, or house-ruling how non-attainable spells could be ritualized.

The ritualization of higher level spells is a double-edged sword for me though. The low magic of E5 appeals to me, which in turn brings me full circle to the question on how to deal with the magic facilities within a King Maker style game that Idilippy mentioned...

Best,
The Bane


idilippy wrote:
"Most moderate and all major items should have a caster level of higher than 5, and therefore would not be capable of being made in an E5 world."

I had thought the same thing, but believe I was mistaken based off of some searching I have done on the PF message boards. Most of my confusion was the Caster Level (CL) listed on magic items, and thinking this was a requirement.

PRD wrote:
"The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item."

So the DC for crafting an item is based on the Caster Level listed. Check.

PRD wrote:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."

So the requirements section, usually in the form of a spell that must be known, is what bases whether it can be crafted. But, all requirements except the creation feat, can be dropped with a cumulative +5 for each missing requirement... Hmmm, ok. Check.

A common set of feats that are added to E6, are to drop the creation feat requirements to level 6 for feats with requirements higher than level 6. IE; Craft Rings, Staffs, Rods...

With that in mind, I assume that at any level I could try and craft, say, a Ring of Friend Shieldwith a CL of 10, for example. Which has the requirements of: Forge Ring, Shield Other.

I am 6th level, but can't cast Shield Other. So my DC would be 5+ item CL +5 for each missing requirement, or a DC20 (5+10CL+5MissingSpell) Skill Check plus gold cost.

With Aid Another, I could feasible have any Magic Items justified in an E5 PFBB game.

Correct?

Responses are appreciated,
The Bane


VanceMadrox wrote:
The Bane wrote:
I guess, based on how I interpret it, is that a Master Craftsman could have an equivalent of a CL10 (5 skill ranks, 3 skill ranks for class skill, and 2 skill ranks from feat) in a 5th level game.
No it doesn't work like that. The feat only allows you to count actual ranks in craft skills for your caster level. The feat and class bonus don't give ranks, they give bonuses to using the skill.

So you are saying that I would still have a CL of 5? I guess now that I re-read it, this is for 'professionals', who may not be casters but who took the Craft X Magic Item feats? So that they can use their Skill instead of an actual CL. That, if correct, is disappointing.

Best,
The Bane


I hadn't thought about the magic creation conundrum, and THAT is EXACTLY the feedback I was looking for. I did, while doing some research, find out about a Feat: Master Craftsman. I guess, based on how I interpret it, is that a Master Craftsman could have an equivalent of a CL10 (5 skill ranks, 3 skill ranks for class skill, and 2 skill ranks from feat) in a 5th level game. This might allow a few more magic items into the setting. Though I will have to figure out how to mitigate this before I press on, without a major rewrite to the rules...

With regards to Core and the PRD - the thing is, and I appreciate all the responses thus far, I don't want to go past 5th level +feats. I am, slowly, migrating from BEMCI (or Rules Cyclopedia) style D&D to Pathfinder, mostly because it is easier to find players, and PFBB still fits me flavor of the game. I like the grim, gritty, and fatal feel of low level, rules light, play. I like the idea of 5th level King.

With that in mind, I may need to look at slowing down the level progression a bit. I will probably play-test, or experiment, with the standard XP progression before I change that, but right now, the kingdom magic creation rules are my biggest hurdle I believe.

Unless someone can point out something else I might be missing.

Best and thanks for the responses,
The Bane


Don Walker wrote:
It would work. You could get through most of the second book before needing the Core for level 6 and up.

That's just it, and I had forgotten to mention it in my haste to get the original post up, but I don't intend to go past 5th level and this would be a home-brew setting. More of an E6 kind of attempt at it, so no one - NPCs included, would be higher than 5th level. I might dig into Core for some Feats, for progression like E6 does past fifth level, but for the most part the highest you can go is 5th level.

The biggest stumbling block with this is, I believe, the limit on bonuses to the different kingdom management rolls a fifth level player could muster, and how that might limit the actual size of a domain that the characters could build. But I am not sure. Hence the desire for discussion and insight from Kingmaker experienced GMs/Players.

Now, it would be totally acceptable by me, if a character could only build a 'barony' size domain individually due to such limitations. It would then require conquest, and sub lords/ladies to proclaim yourself a Duke/Duchess.

So what kind of limitations am I looking at if I only allow 5th level advancement?

Thanks for the response by the way!
The Bane


After purchasing the Pathfinder Beginner Box (PFBB) and playing it a bit, I am completely enamored with it. Also, I have always been interested in the Kingmaker Adventure Path (AP) for it's kingdom development rules, and eventually just bought the Book of the River Nations, for the OGL content.

My question then becomes; can the two be combined for a plausible campaign? My initial thought is, yes. But, I am wondering if more experienced players would agree, and if there is anything I should consider before kicking this off?

Best,
The Bane


ElyasRavenwood wrote:

If i may ask what is E5? does that mean you are going to stop character advancement and development at 5th level?

I would also suggest The Tower of the Last Baron. One of my favorites.

If I don't miss my guess, or at least for me and my use of the phrase "E5", stems from the original concept of E6. Where, indeed levels stopped at 6th level. Advancement continued past 6th level with Feats, and some mentioned using Prestige Classes to go another three levels, or so.

When PFBB came along, E5 kinda sprung up since it stopped at fifth level.

Best,
The Bane


The perception skill that I was referring to was to assess the condition of the Ogre; is he wounded, large for his race, etc.

Where did I miss that the original map was 10' squares and not 5' squares? Crap!

Dang off to work!
TB


Tippo Dakar wrote:
The Bane wrote:

@DM

...do you have spoilers reserved for some other DM function?
No, I hadn't thought of putting other languages in spoiler tags. That'll work as well. I just want something to clearly note when your character is using another language.

Now that I think about it and skim the books, how do languages work in PFBB? I am assuming I speak Varisian and Common... Correct?

Best,
TB


Keith the Thief wrote:
Tippo Dakar wrote:


With all her might she swung her mace at his head. Using Power Attack

...

Please go easy on us newbies.

For instance, I'll have to look up the term Power Attack when I get home.

The biggest difference between PFR and 1E seems to be combat mechanics.

So, there's going to be a lot of lingo that I don't know yet ... but that's why I want to do this.

Thanks,
Keith

Power Attack is a Fighter Feat that takes a -1 to hit penalty in exchange for a +2 damage bonus (+3 if it is a two-handed weapon) until your next action.

Hope that helps.
The Bane


Thanks for sharing. It sounds like it was a lot of fun even with an unconventional party. I always find unconventional parties more fun anyway, with there ingrained challenges of how to complete a quest without having the caster or the rogue, for example. Playing what you want to play, as a character, is usually - in my experience, more appealing. Especially for new players. None, again in my experience, want to hear, "No, someone needs to be the Cleric and someone needs to be the Wizard..."

I like your use of BAB as a Perception roll modifier, at least in the instances that you suggest. As long as they are not overdone as a way to compensate completely for the lack of a Rogue, for example.

Best,


@DM

Do you have any objection to something like the following:

Agota turned to the Rogue and whispered,

In Elven:
"I don't trust the King."

Or do you have spoilers reserved for some other DM function?

Thanks for clarifying what you want to see as far as formatting. I don't want to appear nit-picky with my above question, I just want to head off any future confusion that has happened, for me personally, in the past. The written word can baffle me at times, due to a mild case of dyslexia, so I tend to squirrel up some posts as I read and write them.

Best,
The Bane


Belethor Grimwood wrote:
I just downloaded Hero Lab it's awesome!!! I will definetly be telling my other parties to use it :D

You gotta love that they give you the full PFBB for free. If I ever move on to full blown PF Core, I will spend the duckets on the full version of Hero Lab Pathfinder Core. Smart sales gimmick I suppose.

Okay, is it Monday yet? First Monday I have looked forward to in some time...

Best,


Gozer "Bone Splitter" wrote:
I have never been in a pbp. Are there any special rule on when, how many times, how often, etc... to post? How in depth do the posts need to be and anything else? Thanks for any assistance.

I can't speak directly for Tippo Dakar (DM) but I do recall that it was requested to do daily posts with the DM NPCing the character to move things along should you not reply after a couple days.

Some standard rules, that I am sure Tippo will address, are; tense and person that posts should be made in, ie: first person past tense, third person present tense, etc. Syntax for speech and thought, and the ever popular - don't control someone else's character, ie: don't speak or act for them.

As for me personally, my posts very depending on time constraints, actions, etc. I usually try to put as much detail as I can into a post through the five senses...

Possible Example of what I might post:
------------------------------------
The Bane knocked an arrow to the string of his shortbow as he watched the Goblins charge from the far door. A small bead of sweet trickled down the side of his face, between his ear and eye, and dropped quietly on his dark tunic, causing a dark spot of moisture to appear where it landed.

'Mother would not approve of the current company I am keeping,' he thought as he raised the bow and pulled back on the string. The arms of the bow struggled against his strength and bit into his fingers through the string as the bow came to full draw.

'Thwang' went the string with the release, the arrow darting across the expanse of the room, on a collision course with the lead Goblin.

"For Aleria!" he screamed as he pulled another arrow from his quiver and brought it down to knock it...

OOC: To Hit and Damage Roll follows.
1d20 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 91d6 + 2 ⇒ (6) + 2 = 8

------------------------------------

Just a quick post of something I might write in a combat round with some of the syntax/formating that might be required by the DM as an example. OOC being Out Of Character and might be required in a [spoiler] tag. I also always try to start my posts, whatever tense/person is required, with the character's name. I find it helps to quickly associate the action with the character and not with the player. I also try to alude to what my next action is going to be. In this example, another bow shot, so the DM can NPC me should real life rear its ugly head. But again, the DM will probably explain how they want it all formatted...

Best,
The Bane

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