Tharen the Damned's page

What baffles me is not WHAT they did, but HOW they did it.
I mean you could have ome up with a mayor realms shacking event that kills of a few Godas and lots of high level NPCs and build in some sense of continuity.
The idea to merge Abeir and Toril was not so bad.
Ao has lost patience with both worlds and merges them.
A battle for domination ensues.
Gods of both worlds pantheons fight each other an get killed. Some opportunists pick up free portfolios.
Heroes of both worlds fight each other too and wipe each other out.
Due to the magic unleashed the landscape is changed.
Some empires fall in the aftermath, some scrabble along and some prosper.
So much opportunities for adventure!
Put all this in a Hardover and Name it the Worldswar or whatever. This is the last 3.5 Book and has lots of suggestions how to end the campaign with a bang. This also includes a lot of lore which NPCs are killed how, why and when.
Bam!
Now 4th comes along and we get fresh new Realms. There is continuity for those old fans (as the above Hardcover explains what happened, eg. hw Alustriel died), there is a starting point for the new fans, unencumbered by many of old lore. And all makes actually sense. And we have some nice inbuild conflicts between "old races" and the dragonborn and tieflings (big cheliax like empire on Abeir).
Leave Toril as it was and put the more fantastic elements (like those flying earthnodes) into the Abeir part. Offer the DMs and groups to pick what style they want to play.

In the ancient settlement whose golden hues have seen it named the Autumn City, thousands live in peace and prosperity. For centuries, the fomorian chasms deep beneath the city stood silent below the great magical seals that closed them in the waning days of the eladrin empire. Over long years, the folk of Mithrendain forgot the dark threats of old, becoming complacent in their tranquility.

The ancient 300 years old city?

This is what happens when you let a company best known for making a card game take over your role play systems. Bad decisions by people who don't play, who just want money come into the works and you end up with angry consumers.

To be fair to WoC: this was the Company that bought the struggeling TSR and made 3rd edition possible in the first place!

Or simpler: No WoC, no 3rd edition!

Honestly, the fact that your outlook is that a 1 point difference to hit is enough to make a player a 'fool' shows to me that you are looking at this from a min/max mindset, where only the most fully optimized character is acceptable. And that, in my mind, is just a silly view of things - if a character needs a 12 to hit, instead of an 11, they are still going to be plenty able to contribute to a fight.

With a 11 to hit and 1d4 damage you do an average damage of 0.5*2.5= 1.25 average damage per round.

With a 12 to hit and 1d6 damage you do an average damage of 0.45*3.5= 1.575 average damage per round.

Calculating this through for every chance to hit. In most cases the average damage output of the shortsword is higher than that of the dagger.

What do I as DM need an AP for?
- If I am looking for some filler for my homebrew campaign I do not need an AP I just need some generic adventures.
- If I was looking for some inspiration for world-building or settings I would go and buy a Setting book
So what is an AP for?
An AP provides the means for a DM to read & play. It requires far less time input from the DM than creating your own AP or string various unrelated adventures together.
An AP, as far as I understand from the APs since Shackle City provides the DM not only with plots and encounters. That do generic advntures too.
An AP does also provide the DM with an overarching theme that strings all adventures together. A theme that makes it easy for the DM to get from AP adventure 1 to AP adventure 2. Look at the Rise of the Runelords theme. The seeds of what will happen in the last adventure are already planted in the first one. Or look at Curse of the Crimson Throne. What the PCs do in the First Adventure can affect the Outcome of later adventures. In APs the PCs have a strong incentive to play along the plotlines as they are intergrated in the story and part of it.

Now compar this to the WoC AP. What are the PCs motivations to go from Adventure 1 to Adventure 2? Is there a theme for the DM to set the mood?

To me this is not an AP but just some generic adventures strung together.

Are you suggesting that a company like Paizo shouldn't worry about putting their name and reputation on a product with a bunch of errors such as cross-referencing feats and abilities that no longer exist in the product, merely because it is a Beta version? That they shouldn't bother approaching this product with the same professionalism they would approach a final version of the product?

Nope, I am not suggesting that errors in the Beta are negliable. Errors like the ones you pointed out are bothersome and embarrassing for PAIZO too. Thes are due to bad editing and/or spellproofing.

(Although I must admit that so far I had a few looks at Beta, so I do not know if these errors really exist)

ERRATA that actually change or update mechanics (e.g. if they change Perception DCs) is a different thing. PF is in flux and some mechanics may even change between Beta and Final version. But 4th is the Final Product.

Please feel free to post that response to everyone who complains about 4e, you wouldn't be a hypocrit afterall, would you?

The big difference is that PF is still a work in progress. If th final version is out and we get a lot of errata as early as 4th got the, I will complain you can be sure about it.

But PF still can and most probably will change and as far as I can tell, the print version of the Beta is for those who prefer Deadwood Copies instead of PDFs.

-long post-

Seems we mostly agree then.

Yep. In 3rd edition everything was about the character build. The person with the best build did the most stuff during the session, usually over and over again, because he was optimized to the point of stupidity (my 10th level Gnome Bard did 92 points of damage in 1 round, and I'm quite proud of that.) The person with a bad build, or with even a not fully optimized build would sit around doing jack.

That holds also true for 4th edition. Try to play a Dagger wielding light armored fighter in the company of a heavy armored shield and sword wielding fighter. Or better even, try to build a fighter using a ranged weapon as primary weapon. Of course you can use a rogue or ranger instead of a fighter, but so you could in 3rd. There are a lot of possible builds but only some that a good and a lot of sub-optimal ones.

Now, with 4th edition, everything is about the play in game; Tactics, Strategy, and things that happen at the game table. Your ability to contribute is based on how well you play at that session, not how many splatbooks you bought and how many spells and feats and class features you managed to twink out.

So, yeah, if you're into the character building, 4E won't be your cup o joe.

That is not true, you still have to plan your build carefully. If you play above Dagger Fighter the rogue out-damages you and the other fighter lasts longer than you as he has a better AC.

If you pick sub-optimal powers and/or feats for your fighters weapon you have a sub-otimal build and other classes out-damage you or do much cooler things than you in combat.

BUT as 4th has less valid choices for a good build, you do not have to plan so far ahead as you had in 3rd (even without the splat books).
AND the powers and power synergies of different Races/Classes in 4th favor a much more tactical combat.
Therefore you are correct that 4th is more about how good you are using tactics in game while 3rd is more about how good you are at planning a build.

This however is, IMO, an adventure design issue. The ends of fights are not interesting enough - the solution is to have more dynamic dungeons with denizens that like to run away and get their friends or race off to grab their treasure and flee the adventure. That'd help keep things interesting. In fact it'd just help the game in general, dynamic adventure locales are more interesting then static ones but, so far, most of the adventures being made for the system are very static.

Adventures with Static encounters are much easier to handle. If the PCs mess it up and have to fight the Guards in Area 1 they can do so without also having to fight the Guards in Area 2 and the barracks.

With dynamic encounters the PCs coul suddenly face an overwhelming force of guards as one from Area 1 alerted Area 2 and the Barracks.

The above is a trivial example of what can become a really complicated encounter with various allies arriving.
The complication is for the DM to coordinate all these creatures and for the PCs to simply survive.

Experienced DMs and Players can do this but it might overwhelm an inexperienced gaming group.

IMO the adventures so far are clearly intended to introduce DMs and Players to 4th and avoid "complicated" long drawn out encounters with multiple arrivals.

As some posters before me I agree with Polaris' evaluation.

There seem to be a lot of choices. But the synergies of Class Abilities, Powers, Feats/Skills and Equipment makes for a very narrow path in which you can create a PC that works an can use all of its abilities.

In 3rd edition we had a lot more real choices to create working PCs. Of course a lot of these choices were sub-optimal and could create a PC that was sub-par powerwise to other PCs of the same rcae and/or Class.

Nontheless I think 4th is a good game. Due to the straight path my PC has to take to be effective (I play a 2 handed weapon fighter with a heavy maul*) I can concentrate much more on RP and do not have to worry about Feat choices, Multi- or PRClassing.

*I had to take this combination due to my good STR and CON and average DEX.

As I own Necro's CoB, it would be great if this AP could reference and be playable with Necro's product. It is a great product, and I would really like to be able to use the material in it with the upcoming AP.

Count me as a vote for making a link between the two products.

I also own the boxed set and you can read on every page that it is a work of love!

Why re-invent the City itself when you can fit it in nicely? It even has a big Temple for Asmodeus!

Something similar to The Book of Righteous Might by Green Ronin would be awesome. I would also suggest keeping the pantheon smaller, but fleshing out the orders there in and giving a flavor of the faith and the splinter churches. It get's a bit confounding when you end up with 20+ gods in a setting.

I think we should wait until all gods have their "long" entry in the APs and then start to demand a "Gods of Golarion" Hardcover book which takes all information and expands upon it.

Yeah, that would be awesome to have a 256 pages Book of Gods, Demons, Devils, Daemons and Celestials.
But to make such a book feasible, Golarion has to be an ongoing success for 1-3 years.

Count me as a buyer for Ptolus adventures!

Hazhi Awass wrote:

What do you expect from a Cheliaxan?

Panache, my friend. Panache. 8D

(Although, yes, the simpering and the groveling sounded quite a bit like morning services to our dark lord. XD)

As Erik Mona IS the Dark Lord and the Paizo Team ARE the our nine Lords and Ladies and Princes and Princesses you did not simper and growl, you did in fact morning services!

Let the Beetle boys worship their dead kings in their stone heaps and mourn for their lost glory!
We still have an empire worth living in and a god worth worshipping!
All hail Asmodeus!

Hi, I noticed that there is no entry for Demogorgon as a Demonlord in the PFCS even though the name is no WoC IP as good ole' Milton used it for paradise lost.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy that for once Orcus is there but not Demogorgon and Grazzt (fo which WoC holds IP).
Just want to know if there was some reason.

To a high degree its more of an issue with the PC's approach than with the system but because the options there they will do it.

And that is one of the great differences between 3rd and 4th. In the former you have to evaluate which spells to memorize and which spells to cast at what time. This takes a lot of planning and thinking for the Wizard and Cleric.

If you have memorized your spells, you are stuck with them and have to use them as best as possible for combat encounter and RP situations.

In 4th it is less ressource management than tactical consideration how and when to use a power during an encounter. This involves almost no planning but a lot of ad hoc evaluation of the combat situation.

So IMO playing a 3rd Wizard or Cleric includes a lot of STRATEGIC considerations that happen mostly out of game (in the time you take to mark the spells you memorize for the day or which scrolls to buy/write).
Playing a 4th Wizard includes a lot of TACTICAL considerations as powers have a more drastic effect on combat than in 3rd due to the various conditions you can inflict or the shifting, pushing, pulling someone around.

Thoughts on my thoughts?

Don't worry we'll just go to your house, rearrange the furniture and hide the remote.

Na, for that insult we hide the house and leave the remote!

Gods, are you all still yammering? Your party's a bore, it smells like burnt meat, and the entertainment's about as entertaining as listening to cats being whipped. It's a wonder you people have any fun at all.

Ah my friend, your ignorance shows.

Just listen to the great symphony of the Zon Kuthonian Orchestra. This is a Masterpiece for 15 Humoids, 20 Cats, 6 dogs and one Angel. After that, you will see that "cats being whipped" can be anything but boring!

Will there be a restock in this anytime soon? ~grumbles as I realize that I have missed out on another good product~

City of Brass screams old school coolness so loud, you just have to have it!

And I do not know how big the print run was for this product.
So try it at AMAZON or Noble Knight or elsewhere to get this box of goodness!

-Read this then http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1073327

-Some people in Canada got the 4E FRCG yesterday.

18DELTA

Can you spoiler-post the entry here? Can not log into Gleemax from work.

Tharen the Damned wrote:

Sir Ardokaur

His name rhymes with Sardaukar, the personal guard of the Padishah Emperor. Let's hope no Fremen spring out of the desert.

Is Osirion behind this Fremen Conspiracy?

So why does WoC change the GSL now?
Some thoughts:

- bad PR. The GSL was a PR desaster. I brought a lot of anger towards 4th edition. Even if the GAME and the GSL are different things.

- the D&D crowd splits. Under OGL almost all 3PP products, even most of those with vastly modified rules (Conan, Black comapny Campaign Setting) needed or referred to the Core Books. I guess that the majority of all D&D players started with the Core Rules and later drifted towards alternate rules. Now there are two different rule sets 4th and 3.5 (with all its different incarnations and modifications e.g. PFRPG is 3.5 compatible). This will split the D&D Crowd and every Gamer investing in 3.5 compatible products will not invest as heavy in 4th products. Or will pimp 4th edition to new players.

Dear Non-Chelaxian Guests!
We Servants of the Great one take our hospitality very serious.
I have even brought a big Guestbook!
Will you please sign it? With your full name please?
No, the scrollwork just looks like infernal smallprint. Do not worry, it is just for decoration!
Did you all sign it?
No?
Well, you still can do it before you leave!
Oh, look, isn't that Sir Ardokaur from the order of the Nail? Come over good Sir and I will introduce you to my reluctant frien here.
Shh, no need to scream like that!
I am sure Sir Ardokaur didn't men to step on your toes with his Ironshot Boots. Why would he do that?
Now, of course we have a healer and I will call him over now.
Meanwhile you can sign the Guestbook.
See, that was easy!
Now I will call over Father Abominas. He will have a look at your body an soul.
Yes, we Chelaxians like our guests!

Cool!
I have no private e-mail access in the office (yes, I am working hard at the moment!) but the tonight at home I will download the Issue and wait patiently for the hardcopy.

Dragons are ok but Kobolds rule!

He never was part of the Pantheon and there was never an Ao clergy save for shortly after the Time of Troubles. I do remember Elminster remarking later on in the Avatar series that knowledge of Ao seemed to disappearing from the Realms, it's quite likely since he does not rely on worship that he actively purges any knowledge from his existence from almost everyone.

Hmm, maybe these memory purges were also inflicted upon the designers of the new FR?

Am I correct in assuming that the Brutal Score is for the overall Damage?

So for example if I roll 1d12 damage I roll until I get a result higher than 2

If I roll 4d12 damage I will always get at least 4 damage, so Brutal is of no use?

Well, 3rd and 3.5 had a whole slew of errata too.
It is annoying, yes of course and do not like to write in my books.
But that is not what makes me angry.
It makes me angry that there seems to be no learning curve from the experience of 3rd and 3.5.
I would have expected to get a system that requires only a few minor changes.
But see the "updates" list after those few weeks!
For a book that was a few years underway, was created by the Market Leader and received a lot of playtesting this is a shame.

My issue is that it's essentially advertising for the final product.

It's supposed to say "this is why you want to pay $15 a month."

To me, it says "this is why you don't want to pay $15 a month."

"Well, our free adventures suck, but the ones you pay for will be good! Never mind that this is the first part of the AP. Never mind that neither the DM nor the players have any idea where the AP will lead to or what this AP will be about. Never mind that the DM will have to put a lot of work into the adventure to make the PCs actually care for Rivenroar. As soon as you pay for DDI all will be better!"

I say it again and again, WoC are and see themselve as the leaders in the RPG industry. They have the manpower and they have the funds. There is NO excuse for the shoddy work in this adventure!

FR might be an oil painting, but it's a Bosch oil painting (in terms of crowding not subject matter).

I'd rather go for Bruegel.

On the other hand Justified scantily clad, strong women? Now that I can get behind. A warrior in a tropical climate, an arcane caster, a social rogue, or any character during their down time; if it would be in character to be dressed in an alluring fashion, then awesome! This goes for any character willing to shell out for Glamered armour too :P.

For me Seoni is one of those justified scantily clad women. She does not need armor and knows she looks good and has the charisma.

On a sidenote: As much as i like to see women in High Heels, it is completely ridicoulous for most adventurers. Trecking though the woods or Dungeoncrawling in 5 inch Stilettos?
Thankfully all Iconis have sensible footwear. Although Seonis Sandals are pushing it.

I don't mind the "scantily clad" females in this venue at all but I do wish they would illustrate a female character -- who is not one of the monsters (such as Mama Graul) who isn't unrealistically beautiful.-W. E. Ray

She is no Monster! She is just a girl with a mighty appetite! In GB or Ireland you would call her a "Ladette"!

Elizabeth Cougill wrote:

Snorter wrote:

You can count on MY steel!

and my bow?

And mine axe!

And my...sharpened pencil*!

* I can also disarm people with my ruler.**

** I can not believe I spent 2 Feats for this.

you say pootato I say Potaato

Und ich sage Kartoffel

I'm not Mr. Steward, but I can't imagine why it shouldn't be possible to customize the Golarion multiverse to your liking...

Yeah, just read some more stuff on the multiverse and that answered my question.

It seems to be eay to add different planes to the setting, without changing much of the "canon".

IMO there are enough good reasons (from a publisher view that is) for the changes in FR:

1) FR is the strongest Brand Name WoC has for a Campaign Setting. So rather than introducing the "Points of Light Campaign Setting" and support it with massive advertising, they change FR to suit the new game mechanics. Even if most FR fans do not like it, many will buy it nonetheless. Furthermore, many casual and/or new gamers will recognize the FR brand name and buy the setting for their 4th games.

2) It is much easier to write in the new FR. Designers and authors can freely invent without much of the constricting canon of the old FR.

3) ALL NEW BOOKS! As the Realms have fundamentally changed you can not use your 1st, 2nd or 3r edition stuff for your new 4th edition FR campaign. But WoC will probably be happy to support all your needs with new Books.

Now we will have to see if the new Realms will be comercially successful or not.

I think that the novels will be a success as many non-roleplayers or roleplayers who do not play in FR read them too.

But the RP stuff? We will see...

James Jacobs wrote:

the plane of Axis is a gigantic city. The first city, sort of.

Also the last city, sort of.

Hm, First and Last and ...always?

Axis, the etrnal City!

Ok, one more for Mr. Stewart:
Will I be able to add my own planes to the mix or use "beyound countless doorways"?
What I mean: Will it be to add new planes to the cosmology?

I could start a Golarion Campaign, or a dozen, with just the Gazetteer at hand.
I do not really need the other Chronicles and Companions.
But they are handy as they save me time inventing a lot of background myself. So I can focus on PCs and Plot.
And of course I am a collector and have to have all the stuff.

A few years down the road there will be a "hardcore" group who knows the Golarion canon in and out like those Greyhawkers and Realmers at Canonfire and Candlekeep.

But most DMs and Players will use the Campaign Setting Book and maybe a few additional Books and invent the rest to suit their needs.

I bet the same people who complained about the prices of the 4E books will eat this $50 cover price up without a problem, which goes to show people were looking for a reason not to like 4E.

Indeed I have no problems paying 49 bucks for a 3rd party 254 page full colour product.

This is all about fixed costs. WoC have a large print run for their products. Therefore they have lower fixed costs, therefore they can sell their stuff comparatively cheaper.

- long post-

I agree with you on all this.

But again, we will have to see how all the otions of a high level 4th edition PC can be used in actual play.
Due to the nature of 4th spells/powers have much more tactical influence. It can be more important to slide an enemy or give it a crtain condition that do xdy damage.
Therefore a high level spellcaster - or more general: a high level PC-might have to go through his list of powers and evaluate which to use this round. He has to take into account th possible tactical ramification his action has on the other PCs.
So it might be that in the end, high level 4th PCs are as complex to play as 3rd PCs.
But again, I have not played a High level 4th PC yet and this is all guesswork.
And last but not least, so far we only have the PHB powers. No Splatbooks yet.

Eh, I don't know about that. There are enough spells that it is nearly impossible to know exactly how each functions, even for a truly dedicated, hardcore player. Throw in changes to rarely used spells that my group STILL trips over from the 3.0 to 3.5 change and I think you can make a good argument that 3E characters probably don't know what every spell they can cast does.

For example, for the first time last night I learned Remove Disease kills green molds and the like. I had no idea whatsoever it had that ability. Trust me when I say I am a very hardcore DnD-er, however. ;)

I meant that every Player who plays his Arcane Spellcaster since Level 1 in a campaign should know the spells he memorizes or his known spells very well.

Of course there are always some details that have to be looked up.
I think questions like: Was the range medium or long? are normal IMO. Questions like, so how does telekineses work again? are not.
Divine Spellcaster Players have it much much harder harder as they have no spellbook/known spell and to all Spells on the Cleric Spell list.
If Remove Disease is a standard spell in your Clerics repertoire, you should know that it kills green Molds.
If, on the other hand, you only choose this spell once in a while it is normal that you are not this familiar with the Spell.

But I suspect most games will fall into the first category (ongoing games) than the second - and even when dealing with the options, it is certainly an improvement over the overwhelming number of capabilities of spellcasters in the last edition.

Huh? As DM and frequent player of Wizards or Sorcerers I have to say that every Player worth his salt should know his spells in and out if he plays in an ONGOING game.

Then it is for you, Rathendar, that I have done it...well, for you and mainly for me 'cause I love it to. Ha! Take that, Pett and Logue!

Mr. Pett and Mr. Logue, I suggest to take the the Gauntlet!

For your honor and our amusement!

So... you admit to having a Bella Sara "friend" too? ;-)

No, I...uhm...I have a niece!

I would never collect this stuff for me!
Haha, I am a grown up man aged 36!
Would I use the Bella Sara School tin to bring my daily lunch to work?
Nope, never!
I do not even know that the Northern Lights expansion set has cool cards of Sleipnir!
No man, it is only Sebastian that has this strange affliction!

Did you not notice that following "Sebastian" came the words "Bella Sara Charter Subscriber"?

It is all the stuff he has to order for his "FRIEND" you see?

(winks)

CourtFool wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan.

There are two Bella Sara fans?

I thought the more controversial point was that I had a friend.

Yeah, sure, your FRIEND is a Bella Sara fan.

And you have to order all the Bella Sara Stuff for him or her, yes?
And he/she talks so much about Bella Sara that you are an expert now too, yes?
Yeah, we all have that kind of friends...

How do you become one ????

Virgin Sacrifice to Eric Mona's demon god of choice

or

subsrcibe to Pathfinder Companion too!

Me too! Me too!

(jumps exited up and down!)

Haha, and Charter Superscriber too!

That is almost the pinnacle of subsriberdom!

Those few Charter Superscribers who also have Planet Stories subsrption are the true Heroes!

I just preordered this an it says it was canceled in July?

You are a Chronicles Subscriber so you will automatically receive this Book.

Did you subscribe after ordering? Then the system automatically cancels all orders where for which you will receive products from subcriptions.

I know this as it happened to me. I preordered Darkmoon Vale and the Campaign Setting and both got cancelled as I will receive them through the subsciption anyway.