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Tertiary's page

50 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


Seems like this would be a good time to mention any potential 'withdraw' manuever or feature? Or will the finer points of combat be covered in more detail later on?

leo1925 wrote:
...(or ask someone to explain it you)...

I think it would be wise to check post history before posting jibes like this.

Pete's a pretty clever fellow and playing opposite his wizard as our group's sorcerer I can attest that there does often seem to be an imbalance. Some of that is our play styles, some of that is the pace of our game, some of it is house rules, but a lot of it does have to do with mechanics. When the game is played properly, sorcerers have a clear advantage. Recall that every toy you give the wizard, the sorcerer has equivalent wealth/access to feats and doesn't have to waste it trying to catch up w/ the wizard. And when you are playing organically instead of theory-crafting this divide becomes more evident because...

The biggest problem with wizards? Anything they want to do... takes ten times longer in downtime than any other non-wizard PC is going to want to spend. I've got my own projects and it happens I am the uncommon sort who wants as much downtime as Peter; but our fighters, bard, and cleric? Not even a glimmer of interest in taking a year off in-character so the wizard can research some new spells/create some custom magic items/etc.

Also, having EVE-Stlye production queus is a major turn-off for me. There is already too much EVE-fanboi in the game for me... If I wanted to play EVE I'd play EVE. :\ Since I'm boycotting EVE due to consumer dissatisfaction...

Can you be sure to include a reputation system for vendors/merchants/crafters? So we can sort by/show preferential treatment to PCs that we like? (e.g. have their good shown higher on a sorted list) Or show preferential treatment to our nation/guild/race/affiliation/etc.?

"Buy Local."

It looks like you are intending to make a military settlement that caters to intermediete crafters? Or are you making a crafting settlement that will have intermediete protection? Will there be a focus to the training provided (ie. high tier strength skills), or will the settlement try to provide as many trainers as possible? How will you moderate who gets the limited available training; significant mark-up on the price? Leave moderation of training to CCs? Have in-game or out-of-game applications?

Great tie-in to the lore.

That Link I Linked wrote:
Hexes: It may be important for some GMs using this article to know how much land is in a hexagonal area! To determine the area of a hex, multiply its width by 0.9306049, and square the result. Thus, if your game-map has hexes 30 miles across, each hex represents about 780 square miles (and it's a convenient size for travel-times, since 30 miles is a good rule of thumb for a day's road travel on foot or horseback).

I may have misquoted. I am at a similar level of math. Cool Story: when I was doing my college math placement test many years ago (after four years of intervening military service) I forgot Order of Operations. Needless to say, I failed that test... a lot.

Fair enough; and I do see that. But, from my perspective... the mask was never intended to be a permanent piece of gear. You put it on when you need it, you take it off right after. To be honest, though, the time frame we're looking at before we're seeing people who are reliably able to act as top-tier commanders + leaders + assassins is probably nearly half a decade from now. So, sure... don't take anything away. Their penalty can be their lack of focus. ;)

Dario wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dario wrote:
And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."
If you are wearing an assassin's mask, you are anonymous. You name stops being your name and becomes a random one. So it stands to reason that any benefits tied to your character being logged in would be null while you are masked. You can be immune to assassination from wearing the mask, but you are not granting the benefit of your leadership to your settlement while you are masked, so you are basically doing the assassins job for him.
So, an assassin can't be in a settlement leadership position without his settlement's DI pogoing? I don't think that's the desired outcome.

I disagree; it is the nature of RPGs that you make decisions and those decisions have consequences. For some, being a assassin leader will be extremely desirable. They will micro-manage their DI and let their crafters/defenders know when it will pogo... they will schedule the pogo appropriately so that just before they need to assassinate someone is when they will don the mask... and before the massed assault against the target's town is when they will remove it and join the legions. Will that be for everyone? Certainly not, that's a lot of work! But, I do not think it is an unfair system.

EDIT: Also, I don't recommend this for those who wish to be SUPER-TOP-SECRET about their assassin schtick. Anyone closely monitoring your DI for long enough will probably notice the pogo.

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I am utterly against gremlins in the game on the grounds that I refuse to fight pugwampi. Any merchant who tries to lead me into a pugwampi-infested zone is dead meat, you hear me?!

I refuse to fight stirges. I don't care if I'm epic level... I will run away, and without shame.

EDIT: Oh, and a hex is something like ~.927 squares. So, yeah... very extreme rounding. :) But, extreme is my middle name. Tertiary Extreme Hyperbole. AKA. 'TEH' for the sound people make when they have to deal with me too often. ;)

Bringslite wrote:
Tertiary wrote:
Mountains won't be in for a while; 'steep hills' will not even come close to 'small mountains' unfortuantely... it's just not part of the terrain in the area. I'd expect a long wait before we see any sort of mountainous region... that is, unless they chose to open up a completely new area w/out needing the two areas to be directly connected.

According to an interview with Mr. Dancey by someone somewhere.=P

There is a possibility of map expansion through portals in the future.

Clever! I vote Five Kings for the mountainous terrain! Thanks for the info, Bringslite! :)

Imbicatus wrote:
Tertiary wrote:
'Evil' has also not been mentioned as a prerequisite in PFO... still, the mask is not a freebie to all-comers.
Actually, Evil is a requirement to use the assassin pvp flag, and all the abilities learned from assassin groups require the flag to be active in order to work.

I stand corrected. :)

^ EDIT @ Imbicatus: Word.

I would like to wonder aloud, 'What intentionally anonymous assassin is knowingly donning the mask that grants them anonymity while being observed and thus effectively rendering it useless forever more?' It seems to me that simply making it impossible to don an assassins mask while you have that debuff is the logical answer to this quandry.

Dario; postmortum anonymity has been addressed. When you kill a person normally, you show up on their 'kill list.' When you are wearing an assassin's mask you show up as 'assassin' instead of your normal name. Premortum, it will be dependant on disguises and cleverness, I suspect... since the assassin's mask was only said to effect communication channels and metagame bits unless I'm mistaken?

And, in order to get the mask you are required to build up reputation with one of the larger assassins guilds like Red Mantis or the Daggermark Assasins Guild. That means that your reputation with other groups (probably big ones, too, like Iomedae and Hellknights) is going to go suffer. Particular skills/abilities have not actually been mentioned as a requisite -- if you think you can 'fighter' your way into a settlement and out on an assassination contract, I see no reason to stop your efforts. 'Evil' has also not been mentioned as a prerequisite in PFO... still, the mask is not a freebie to all-comers.

1000 meters is ~1 mile. A hex is ~1 square. I am doing some extreme rounding. ;) If it is very much closer to the 400 meter mark then... yeah, I'd have some concerns about how large settlements will be, too. :\

Being wrote:
Harad Navar wrote:
IIRC, it is possible for a settlement to have a 24-hour PvP window, if they so chose.

But how quickly can a settlement (whose DI is maxed for the number of controlled hexes and maxwindow) to close the window, and what would be the consequences for closing it?

If someone declared war on us and we already had a high DI, in part because our PvP window was so wide open, could we reduce the duration of that window? How quickly? What would be the consequences on our DI, if any?

Well, they have a system for reducing the effectiveness of a settlement when a key cog is removed (ie. one of the players is assassinated). I assume that whole thing will be linked; having players in leadership roles will be necessary in order to access the highest DI. When those players are removed, your DI (and thus effectiveness of your settlement) is reduced... I'd assume the same would be true when you removed your PvP window. Instant reduction of DI values and commensurate reduction of settlement effectiveness.

I think that's fair enough; if your whole community can only play on the weekends and only wants access to the highest DI on the weekends -- why should you need to login all week long to defend the settlement? Just max your PvP window Friday night and turn it off Monday morning.

Bringslite wrote:
Will settlements be able to grow into cities? Won't they have to be instances to get that large? The individual hex sizes are not very big.

Each hex will be roughly 1 sq. mile (640 acres). I imagine a fully developed settlement might spill into surrounding hexes, but I don't imagine it needs to be much bigger than that. I could go into details on why that should be sufficient... but, it's complicated and a lot of work. Suffice to say that the PoI, wilderness harvest locations, etc. should be counted when you consider the 'actual size' of the supporting village and that you should realize these will be villages/hamlets/etc. and not small cities; the NPC Fortresses are the small cities that support them.

A quick search provides THIS LINK which gives a bit more information. There are other articles out there that cover the topic as well. So, I guess my answer to your question would be 'no, they are not supposed to grow into cities.' They may seem that way and even be refered to that way in the metagame; but demographically they will not be that large.

Mountains won't be in for a while; 'steep hills' will not even come close to 'small mountains' unfortuantely... it's just not part of the terrain in the area. I'd expect a long wait before we see any sort of mountainous region... that is, unless they chose to open up a completely new area w/out needing the two areas to be directly connected.

Shadowkiller - Run and Fleet are feats in PnP and there are already penalties for 'rushing' a skill check.

Rafkin wrote:
If a leader type dies through regular combat do indexes drop or is it only through the act of assassinations?

The blogs heavily imply that it is only when the leader is assassinated; as written, it is an added incentive to be an/hire an assassin.

The penalty to your generals dying is that you loose their leadership bonus; there is a whole log on fighting in formations/etc. and it specifies that in order to get formation bonuses you need to have someone trained in the abilities that give them to you.

Agreed, Decius. Rock, paper, scissor, cannon, tickle, spider is always preferable to punch, dodge.

Shadowplexus, abilities will be adjusted by a d1000 (in precisely the same manner as d20s are used for PnP; though the modifiers will be similiarly larger than PnP), but otherwise yes... just so. :)

Nihimon wrote:
Tertiary wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
... I could see player squatting on all adjacent settlement hexes surrounding a city...
I would hope this would prove prohibitively expensive.

It seems likely that while the settlement NPC 'off-duty' guards will be insurmountable, the smaller 'featured site' 'off-duty' guards will be less so. The blog suggests that there will be far fewer of them; this suggests to me that 'squating' on adjacent hexes will be difficult without a PC force present (though primary settlement hexes might be easier to do).

To be clear, there's a difference between "settlement hexes" and "wilderness hexes". The latter allow POIs. The former only allow Settlements. So, in order to squat on all adjacent settlement hexes, you'd need to actually build Settlements, not just POIs.

Aha, I parsed with too much weight on 'adjacent' and not enough weight on 'settlement'. My mistake. Still, we can infer a great deal; MAXPOWER can be inferred to be a function of STRUCTURESIZE based on the blog acknowledging that POIs will have fewer guards. Further, we know that NPCPOWER is a direct function of one of the index values based on one of the previous blogs. We know that index values will be limited based on PVPWINDOW and that STRUCTURESIZE will be limited based on index values. We can infer that MAXPOWER is a function of NPCPOWER and thus: if PVPWINDOW==0 than limit MAXPOWER by NPCPOWER*STRUCTURESIZE. Or, you know, whatever. Basically, a sliding scale of invincibility.

Besides which, training is not the only function of a settlement. Each will have unique modifiers/resources/etc. that will encourage factions to improve them. The POI and resources (wood/gems/etc.) of the adjacent hexes will be modified by the settlement indexes. We can infer that incursions will be somewhat modified by settlement index values as well (though there has been nothing to directly imply this yet). And, finally, where would you rather retreat to when you are ambushed while harvesting or camping mobs? A 1000/1000/1000 index value settlement, or a 200/200/200 settlement? The settlement might be nearly impossible to conquer, but that does not mean the PCs inside the settlement will be impossible to spawncamp.

Finally, I expect the ability to 'squat' on a settlement w/ 0 PvP window is a feature and not a bug. There are, quite frankly, players who won't want to deal with that and would prefer to have a janky settlement than constantly labor under the threat of looming PvP war. Though, I do appreciate the sentiment you are expressing... perhaps something akin to Eve's 0 security sector is in order?

Shadowfear wrote:
A bunch of things and stuff.

Maybe the 'Max PvP Window' is 8-hours/day + you can only change it 1/month and the 'Min PvP Window' is 30-min/day + you can change it 1/day? If that makes any sense.

I do maintain, and agree with AvenaOats, that a constant window is preferable to a mercurial window. IRL is a constant issue and it takes less than a minute before a massive siege before you might find out your commander (who was going to be there) suddenly cannot (because of cancer or something similiarly terrible) and a game should never take priority over that... but, there are potentially hundreds of people who will be involved. We have IRL too that we have to schedule around; it's not fair to all of us if 'you' are constantly changing your window and making us readjust our schedules.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So, this isn't too on-topic, but I'm interested by the idea that a tavern could be a defensible location--if only a thorn in the side of most proper settlements. Am I right in thinking that one could build a tavern without building a Settlement?

If I am not mistaken; Yes. There will be several PoIs throughout the Crusader Road area that will not be connected to settlements.

Nihimon wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
... I could see player squatting on all adjacent settlement hexes surrounding a city...
I would hope this would prove prohibitively expensive.

It seems likely that while the settlement NPC 'off-duty' guards will be insurmountable, the smaller 'featured site' 'off-duty' guards will be less so. The blog suggests that there will be far fewer of them; this suggests to me that 'squating' on adjacent hexes will be difficult without a PC force present (though primary settlement hexes might be easier to do).

Will a Settlement be able to modify its PvP Window while an attack or siege is underway? It seems to me that once the siege is laid, or possibly even once there's a Declaration of War, that the defenders should have to live with their current PvP Window or increase it, but not move or decrease it.

Ideally, the guilds would organize so that the maximum number of people available are around to participate in the war... and the sportsman-like guilds might even limit their numbers if they are significantly larger than their attackers/defenders... ideally. ;) So far as modifying your PvP Window; don't most MMOs that have that sort of system only allow modification once/week?

It's possible, Shadowfear, but since Paizo/Pathfinder tend to try and simplify and keep things thematic I think it's more likely they'll fold that under the 'stealth' skill. However, I would not be surprised to see 'Horizon Walker' type prestige abilities, and certainly not be surprised to see 'Ranger' type favored terrains.

Also, I'm using 'Survival' just because it is implied there will be some sort of skill/ability based tracking system and in Pathfinder PnP that is what it would be based on. I don't know that it will specifically be survival, or even based on survival. Honestly, the way they have things arranged (abilities/feats are purchased individually and upgraded and your ability scores are upgraded based on which feats/abilities you purchase), it seems much more likely that it will not actually be anything like the 'survival skill.' :)

I'm just guessing, Sintaqx, but based on this and the last blog I suspect that the off-hour NPCs are not based on your development indexes. They are 'full-strength' and thus not subject to having their power reduced by assassination (since it is the index values which fluctuate based on assassination, and it is the fluctuating index values which decrease the power of on-duty guards).

The first thing I notice that is not addressed whether new supporters might be able to muscle in on the Crowdforging and early-access, only mention that people may increase their pledges. Any way those who missed the Kickstarter will be able to participate?

ZenPagan, I'd imagine that would be a function of the Diplomacy (Gather Information) skill and should be available via any NPCs. Maybe Settlement Leadership gets a bonus w/ their NPCs, though?

cartomancer, no need to conceed. I think that there should be a heavy PC focus; it's just that I've played Shadowbane... and one of the most startling things about that world was the lack of NPCs. It felt so empty, especially near the end of its reign when there were few PCs too. The Dynamic Creep in PFO should do a lot to combat that feeling, but as with all things it is a delicate balance. ;)

I'll do the research then and have a report for y'all by the end of the week... same with the work idling, btw. And, I know there are webclients; whether they are available via work (e.g. at least one of the ones I'm thinking of is a Java app which my work server hates) remains to be seen... but, I'll try to find a few and post those as well. The resource thread for my mIRC-based game could use that sort of update anyways. :)

Planetside 2 has Voice-Macros (two key presses for a basic recorded message) to communicate in the middle of battle. I suppose voice chat might speed me up a bit, but I really don't like it. Also, though it is widely off-topic, I miss the three menu deep voice-macros of Planetside 1. Lots of 'needs' missing in PS2 (hacker, gunner, etc) that were easy enough to call out in PS1.

ZenPagan wrote:


If there is a period where the whole server is cooperating then the game is not running right. The game is a game of kingdoms, duchies and the conflicts between them at heart. Any time the political situation is beginning to appear like it may be approaching any form of stability I fully hope that GW will step in to shake things up.

I agree with Dario, but I would like to add that just because the server cooperates to create something does not mean they cooperate to control it. Imagine if there were benefits to controlling the Wonder of the Kingdoms that you all got together to help create... and that someone didn't want you to have those benefits? How much more pitched will the battle be when you had a hand in creating this structure that has now been stolen from you?


I have played 3 games which include in game voice chat


I have yet to use or meet anyone using the voice chat in any of these. On the other hand in all three I have been on teamspeak/ventrilo. Only anecdotal of course and I am not implying no one uses it just that even in pug groups no one has ever suggested people on in game voice either

The *PS2 (Planetside 2) voice chat is fairly robust and gets a lot of use; I know at least one major Outfit still insists on using TeamSpeak, though. It doesn't get abused often; though the ability to shoot offenders in the head probably helps... I personally refuse to use voice-chat... everyone should learn to type 100+ WPM like me! #OG-elitist

Along those lines, would anyone have any interest in an IRC room(s)? With minimal research and investment I could probably set one up; and it would have the added benefit of allowing people to idle without having to worry about someone obnoxiously shouting, "HULLO!" right at the scariest part of the movie you're watching because you forgot to turn the volume down from 11... chicks don't dig it when you jump for a knife because your dorky RPG voice-chat startled you. :(

OP: Rather than needing to raze your building to the ground, I'd rather this system gave you some method of improving the building/tool/etc. or that the effect was stapled to the property plot and not the building. I don't like the idea of completely random generation; it winds up penalizing too many 'casual' players (penalizing players randomly is never a good idea, imho.)

Bringslite wrote:
At the start of EE building types will likely be similar except maybe in paint jobs. Later, they may become more diversified.

You mean with the context that different settlement types will probably have different building themes? Since they plan to phase settlements in after launch, I hope this isn't accurate... I hope there are at least several options for each building type... but, they have said that cosmetics (e.g. furnishing your own homes) are not something intended for the first phases of the game.


What would be a nice touch is when a settlement or kingdom reaches a certain population that they get to design a unique building for placement in their settlement. For example in the real world think the Eiffel tower, Bigben, the Coliseum etc (StoneHenge for Being naturally)

...+more stuff...

Personally, I'd rather see wonders more along the lines of community projects where the majority of the server population would have to work together in order to accomplish them similar to how Horizons rocked it out. Those always wound up being awesome and epic accomplishments in the story of the game; it's my opinion that limiting the scope to a single settlement would likewise limit the story.

Hardin Steele wrote:

Early on count on zero weather (or at least zero bad weather). I expect it to be sunny and 83 degrees (F) all day, and 58 at night. (That's 28 high, 14 low for you Celsius types).

But I would like to see rain at appropriate times, flooding occasionally, fog, hail....but ways to fight the flood, boons from rain, muddy puddles, clearing fog as the temperature rises. Big snow blanketing the area, and footprints making skulking difficult.

Tough stuff to implement with so much else going on, but worth it over time.

Setting fires, lightning strikes causing forest fires, torching buildings during a battle....those mechanics might be too tough for a long while.


I don't think we should expect naturally occuring volcanos or earthquakes in the River Kingdoms; from what I've read of the area it just doesn't seem like the right spot for that. As the game expands, hopefully towards the Worldwound, maybe more of that sort of thing... and I know some folks hope for mountainous areas to be part of the game world soon (which I believe would be northern or western expansion? The western mountain-range seems a more likely source of that sort of natural phenomena.)

As mentioned, the druid earthquake spell is huge in PnP Pathfinder... and taking too much of that sort of thing away from 'druid' archtypes (remember there won't be classes) will debilitate the 'class.' I think Volcanos will be beyond the scope of anything other than (as mentioned) artifacts or McGuffins. However, keep in mind that there is a lot of fey activity nearby to the north-east (?) of the game area... there could be plenty of 'Main-Plot' type events of this sort if the Devs choose to take it in that direction.

I've already mentioned elsewhere how much including dynamic weather would influence the immersion of the game... and how much I would very much appreciate that immersion. Fog, flooding, and rain are definitely things I expect and I think we should expect. :)

Nihimon wrote:

For the record, I would like to see each player able to choose their own style, ranging from Red Sonja to Brienne of Tarth.

I believe that supporting the player's ability to express their own vision of their character (within the necessary constraints of the game mechanics) is far more important than enforcing any particular style choice.

QFT. I'll be honest, I'm surprised to see debate over this issue in relation to Pathfinder. Their quality visual art is constantly laureled in every product review I've read. The review could read, "I hate everything about this, especially all the things" and it will always conclude, "But, as always, Paizo again delivers eye-candy for the soul." The 'problem' will never be realism vs. fantasy, empowerment vs. subjectification, etc... it is an issue of smut vs. art. With Paizo/Pathfinder/Goblinworks, I feel confident in saying I have no fear that this will be an issue.

Haha, that's awesome! Depends on which side of the fence you're on, then. Nightfear vs. Nightfriend... or something. I'm sure there's a more clever bastardization than that. ;)

That's all true, Vereor, and clever and fun... I hope to be able to support you if I go that way because I suspect assassins are (too often) going to get shafted by the metagame. ie. I know that Vereor Nox is an assassin... so when I toggle my champion tag on, I'm just going to /track Vereor and kill him since I already know that fellow is evil (assuming there is (as usual) not a good version of assassins.) And unattainable goals are the best! They mean you always have something to strive for!! If you meet all your goals, where's the fun left in life???

@Nihimon; Wow... so it is. I think I misread it because that seems a bit strict for settlement alignment... but, I suppose this isn't the thread for that. Thanks for setting me straight, though!!

Good luck finding a Company, Nightfear! I'll stop hijacking your thread now! ;)

I'd say you guys seem to be on the right track from what I've read about the region; I can't find anything that specifically signifies the climate, but I can double-check my sources if no one else has already checked them? (Campaign setting, Guide to the River Kingdoms, and the Kingmaker AP/Players' Guide would be the big ones, I'm guessing)

I wouldn't be surprised to see promotional 'holiday' weather regardless of the appropriate climate. The blog suggests we shouldn't expect to see dynamic weather soon after launch, but I'll be honest... I think I'd almost rather have realistic/dynamic weather patterns early on than a lot of other features that will probably make it into launch. The immersion of slogging through a muddy field to battle a dragon on a rain-soaked day... yeah... wants.

I'm actually surprised to see an intended assassin publically post w/ their character's name -- I'd imagined that the only ones who publically revealed themselves would be the 'inactive' types who acted as the faces of the guilds and never carried out a hit themselves... they just set up the contracts and passed them along. I figured that a name would be an assassin's most valued commodity... interesting to see that play out. ;)

Nihimon, communities can host characters w/in two alignment steps away from them - wouldn't that suggest that a TN community could host any alignment? Since TSV is dedicated to knowledge it already seems like a TN Company... or am I missing something somewhere?

Bringslite; it was an assumption that I made... I should have noted that? My apologies if I neglected that. :) Good work finding that quote, though! I went back and looked but I'm horrible at keeping track and refinding things like that! x.x

I also remembered 'gypsy wagons'. I'd also like to point out that a lot of the benefit of personel wagons (gypsy wagons and carriages) should be that they will be quicker than bipedal locomotion... thus the biggest benefit of riding in those would be 'running away and avoiding conflict' with the presumably (not certainly) unmounted bandits. Be interesting to see mounted vs. carriaged combat, though. Heh.

I know it's already been mentioned that the OP doesn't expect to see them in launch (or even relatively soon after), but I'd like to offer further support ot that... the Devs mentioned they do not plan to have building interiors available at launch (though they specified they would like to develop them eventually)... so, having 'wagon interiors' seems a very low priority.

In response to hiding folks in the wagon, though: Consider clauravoiyance/clauraudience -- a very simple mechanic that should penetrate this tactic and should also (imho) be available at the same time as any sort of 'realistic' covered cargo wagon. It seems like a monumental amount of work to implement the tactic + the counter-tactic and I am uncertain whether the Rule of Cool is going to have as much impact as we suspect.

Anyways, I've said my piece so I'll dip out of the thread and stop bothering y'all. ;)

After writing all that; I actually recalled a scene from one of the oldish Robin Hoods (the one with Kevin Costner maybe?) where they have some armored wagons and a bunch of guards pop-out to ambush the Merry Men. Still, so far as game-balance goes I remain against. :)

Gloreindl wrote:
Covered wagons, in one form or another have been around for over 2,100 years. The Chinese used them in war, and to keep this inline with the 15th century feel of Pathfinder (since it has guns), the Hussites, Hungarians, Czechs and Bohemians used armored wagons during and after the Hussite Wars (1419-1439). All were covered in one fashion or another. The Hussite vVzová Hradba (known in German as the Wagenburg) and Tabors were fine examples of this, carrying troops armed with crossbows, handgonnes, and polearms. Give a couple of these to Merchants and I think Bandits will have some second thoughts LOL

This is along the lines of what I am trying to convey. These are military wagons. Carriages, as I mentioned, are for personel transport... covered wagons (Reference Link: are from the old western period and a completely different animal. In regions of inclement weather and natural hazards IRL, they were not commonly used to transport trade goods during the same relative period... robots and lazers are not a part of the period; they are anomolies and not the norm. Invention, magical or technological, does not seem relevant. This is not Eberron and even in DDO they left out the skyships and lightning rails. And, even if that invention was relevant, it takes a while to catch on... the River Kingdoms are not a scientific/invention driven/progressive society... nor, for that matter, is the weather particularly inclement.

You've forced me into a position it was never my intention to take. I am not saying that PFO should not have armored/covered/whatever wagons... I am saying that from what I've read and what I know of IRL analogous history, and my experience playing in Golarion and other similiar settings... Armored Super-Wagons were the exception for a modern group of IRL people RPing their fantasies and not an acceptable norm of the campaign setting. Again I emphasize they were the exception. By that logic, and again from what I've read so far, it does not seem to me that PFO will have covered wagons.

Would it be cool to have all those scenarios above? Of course! Sneaking into settlements is one particularly interesting to me... and then gate guards aiming the siege machinery at incoming wagons and firing if they don't stop for inspection. But, on the other hand, consider the balance. Sure, it's cool.. but, is it fair to the bandits who are putting themselves in danger and taking time out of their life to set up this elaborate ambush... then, because of the limitations of the game more than the character's acutal abilities, they are suffering a massive counter-ambush by someone who just fast-traveled to their location?

I think this violates the spirit of the game; it is meant to be fun for all and that means giving the bandits a chance at winning. If you want to ambush them, you need to find their location (which will already seems like it will be too easy; it's going to be somewhere inside a single hex) then you need to send your infantry/archers/mages out to set up their counter-ambush... then you need to send in the bait. This is a social game and I don't think that short-cuts like 'covered wagon bomb' encourage social play.

If you want to be generally safe; travel (as theStormWeaver suggested) in LARGE caravans with well-organized guards and under the protection of a well-established company. So, since you've forced me into the position, outside of the 'cool factor' I think this is a bad idea. ;)

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Tertiary wrote:

Regarding caravan guards; PCs can be contracted to protect your caravan/wagon. The contract blog entry was recent, w/in the last four or five, and I recommend checking it out. The system will be robust and even includes routine settlement patrol. All very exciting. :)

I am fully aware of the way guards work. This is a note on how wagons could work. I honestly disagree. Covered wagons are quite practical, as they hide your wares--and guards/traps--and keep them sheltered from the elements.

I don't expect a mechanic to hide guards or traps in a wagon will be in place by launch, but it'd be a nice addition later on.

Your post suggested you hadn't already read the dev blogs from cover to cover (ie. they specifically state there will be wagons and discuss the encumbrance system). I didn't want you to miss out; sorry if I seemed pretentious. And, there is nothing to disagree with unless it is my assumption that the Devs do not currently intend to put covered wagons in. I was just saying it didn't seem 'period', not that it didn't seem 'practical.' In this era 'covered wagons' weren't 'covered wagons'... they were carriages. Carriages were meant to carry passengers (usually well-to-do passengers at that) and not cargo. Wagons are open bed so that they are easier to load and they have more versatility.

To expand on what AvenaOats said; I suspect that at least a few large Companies, or many small Companies, will be required to properly grow out a settlement. It seems like there are opportunities for small groups to get land (ie. the Bandit Hideouts seem likely culprits for that), but I think the majority is going to be geared towards larger groups.

I recommend anyone planning on getting heavily into the PvP/Nation Building aspect of the game see if they can find any archives on how guilds in Shadowbane went about it. I'm not sure how Darkfall is working out, I stopped keeping track after it disappointed me in several areas, but that would be another MMO to take a gander at. For those who are less into the PvP angle, they'll want to check out Horizons. This is all, of course, aside from the obvious (EVE) which has already been touted often and loudly by Goblinworks.

Honestly, this being Pathfinder, I would love to see more in-depth write-ups of the various Companies -- they're history in gaming, they're intent in the game, they're alignment, bios on some of their members, etc. But... I'm a bit OCD when it comes to RP Write-Ups.

Those with bounties will be tracked via the Survival Skill as per the blog entry detailing bounties/PvP/etc.. As mentioned, many Assassin contracts will be for high priority targets and thus shouldn't be too difficult to track down... but, I suspect they can also use the Survival Skill. Finally, look to EVE for more ideas... make good friends with all different sorts and ask them to let you know if they see your targets.

Cartomancer; I disagree. Carte blanch limitation of activities to PC Only will make the world a barren place. In some circumstances it is better to leave things to the PCs, but just because a PC can do it does not mean that an NPC cannot. Take the contract system that gives settlements the ability to pay wages to PC guards... well, settlements that are properly developed (if I understand correctly) can also have NPC guards. Nothing wrong with that.

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In the Dev Blog it states that bandits and highwaymen will be able to train skills and set up camps that will allow them to ambush players who are using fast travel (which will drag them out of fast travel for the confrontation to take place). Presumably, if they are set up properly they will be able to do that vs. those who are just normally traveling as well.

Further, bandits will be able to initiate a dialogue w/ potential targets wherin they demand a certain amount of money/goods/etc. If their demand is not met, they can initiate combat w/out the normal repercussions for PvP.

The implication I got from the Blog was that the wagons would be open; there was no mention of covered wagons nor are they particularly common (to my knowledge) for the era or climate. Of course, what D&D campaign is complete w/out a Gnomish War Wagon? None. The answer is none.

Regarding caravan guards; PCs can be contracted to protect your caravan/wagon. The contract blog entry was recent, w/in the last four or five, and I recommend checking it out. The system will be robust and even includes routine settlement patrol. All very exciting. :)

Response to Update (

I am dissapointed by the mythic initiative nerf. While I am uncertain whether or not it was unbalanced (we have not yet implemented Mythic T2), it was one of the features I was most excited about playing with.

Reducing the number of mythic points by nearly a quarter seems cripplingly strange; it is little more than a layer over the current rules already... now, it will be an inneffective and seldom usable layer? All the hassle, fewer rewards. Reducing access to mythic does not reduce the complication it adds.

d12 roll. Ew! But, seriously, the rest seems like a bunch of good calls and clarifications (esp. mythic weakness)... and to be fair, my complaints are mostly cosmetic anyways. Good work, Paizo.

From the Sorcerer - Hierophant + Dual Path (Archmage)

Mythic Flaw - Cold Iron fits my character fine. Holy might have been more appropriate strictly speaking, but I don't quite like the flavor... also, I don't think it's a thing.

Marshal's Advance - Why wouldn't you let the melee use fleet charge then use marshal's advance to move him out of melee range (forcing an enemy without fleet charge to close and loose attacks) then the melee can use fleet charge to move back into melee range if needed? Mobility is a key tactic.

Arcane Surge - I used it, but I didn't need to. The mooks were very low level and the spell was already DC 27 after heightening it and splendor. The mythic enemy could have had SR, but he didn't. All in all, it was an underwhelming battle for me on the mythic front.

Beast Surge - I've set my familiar up to be combat capable; I am very much enjoying the potential for this. It failed because she uses touch attacks and we were fighting a stupid monk. Hate monks now.

Sustained by Faith - I see no reason not to get this either way, but it is more powerful for spontaneous casters who need ten minutes and six seconds to regain an entire day's worth of spells rather than the full hour needed by vancian casters.

Minor Trials - Ugh. I do not like them, they don't make sense, there aren't enough options, they are unbalanced, etc. One of my trials is essentially 'buff the party with haste.' Done.

Melee v. Caster - I don't see it the same way. You guys got way more mileage out of your mythic than I did... I mean, yeah... I took out ~20 of the 30ish enemies. But, A) You guys took out the main baddie with a lot of mythic and B) I could have (and have in the past) taken out the mooks on a larger scale at higher levels without mythic. Some of this has to do with my mythic choices, some of it does not... e.g. wild surge would have been useful.

But, anyways... not impressed by mythic yet. We could (and have) gotten the same sort of impressiveness with DM fiat and hero points. All this does is add another layer of rules that seems to slow down the game for no particularly good reason.

If your Arcane Archer puts fireball in an arrow and it explodes... is there a problem with the description of it's explosion being a bunch of fire elementals hopping out and punching the guy in the face? Just as an example.

Harrison wrote:

An adventure where all the players are required to use the "Young" creature template.

It'd probably have to have access to little or no magic, since the "Young" creature template doesn't penalize any spellcasting stats.

It could be thematic; a witch has reduced your normal adventurers to ten year olds. Apply the young template and RP accordingly.

Rick, keep in mind that after being killed by her brother... her soul may not be willing to return to its body. Also, it's about as expensive as the rest of your options... lead-lining a single room is significantly cheaper.

You can't make the perception checks to know when the scrying sensor is present in order to censor yourself? +Perception items or a hireling with high Perception might be another option (hireling could double as a guard and might cost as little as 1g/day instead of the 50g/day for nondetection.)

Instead of working against your DM, though... work with them. Use some diplomacy/gather information and track down an inn or tavern that is already led-lined. If you can't manage that, track down an NPC who can.

Some lateral thinking is going to be your best option. As a final note; keep in mind that the scryer can probably communicate through their sensor. Every sensor you detect is a chance to communicate with them and try to reach a diplomatic resolution.

A staff functioning with powers as a staff (ie. 'of Frost') including the powers of a Broom of Flying can be made with the Craft Feats as written. The requirements would be Craft Staff, Craft Wonderous Item, and all relevant spells/other prereqs. You add 75%% the value of the cheaper item to the value of the other item.

Relevant Text wrote:
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

Relevant Link.

If you want the staff to be used as a weapon as well, as Khyrsaor suggested, it will also have to have at least a +1 enchantment on one end (with the other end of the quarterstaff being masterwork). The +1 enchantment is included in the 75%, 50%, etc. pricing.

karkon wrote:

PDFs for books are usually quite cheap. The Inner Sea World Guide is a comprehensive resource. It has a detailed timeline. Maps. Not period maps but you can figure out the map based upon the information.

GMing information is free. There is a lot of advice in the core book. The game mastery guide is free in the PRD.

As a player, I can use PDFs. As a GM, I need the hard-copy in order to really absorb the material. The Inner Sea World Guide sounds like a must have, are there any other accessories? Obviously, I will be getting the Core Rulebooks and probably the APG and the second monster guide. Regarding the maps, I need an essentially blank map to work with if there is not a period map available... is there a physical map available anywhere? I've only found one so far and that is a map of the entire world.

For GMing information, in 3.5 I GMed and knew the rules fairly well. I've done other GM type work in various mediums. I was curious for information more specifically related to Pathfinder. Minutia that is often overlooked and ends up being game-breaking. There are a lot of class guides laying around the forum, I was hoping someone had done a GM guide.

karkon wrote:

Your players have access to the same timeline by buying the book. If I were running it I would metagame a bit with the players. Take a future event and tell them about it. Give the players a vision of what will be happening in four or five years. But it will not happen without work from characters like your PCs. Forces are actively working in ways that will change that future. You have to defeat those forces.

A huge problem for DMs telling a story that requires more involvement than rolling the dice and killing stuff is players forgetting story information between sessions. I have found that doing a recap at the start of every game helps a lot. In fact if you have the players do a recap and you fill in the details. It helps a lot.

Get the players involved in their characters. If they want to buy a bar or factory or build a fort. Let them. Especially if the next plot point will be happening there. If not the next plot point might be able to come to them.

Which leads to the next point. When your players try to do anything not in the rules try to say yes and find a way to make it work. It encourages interesting gameplay. If they are trying to affect a roll of the dice then giving a +/- 2 to the roll works great.

Player: "I throw a pot of water at the bad guy to slow him down."

DM: "Yes, the water in his eyes and hands gives him a -2 to attacks this round."

Finally, do not try to bend the player's gameplay to your vision of the game. Bend your vision to their gameplay. You will be a lot happier.

Some definite gems in there, thanks!

I have yet to GM in Pathfinder RPG and have yet to delve deeply into the lore even as a player. Buying every module and accessory would quickly break what I politely call 'the bank.' It's a porcelain pig with a ribbon tied around its neck... I think there may be .32 dollars in it. Moving up in the world. So, to optimize, I was hoping that some of the vets around here might guide me towards the appropriate products/resources to enhance my campaign.

After preliminary research via The Pathfinder Wiki I have decided that about a decade shy of the Age of Destiny would be appropriate. Beginning in the post-apocalyptic Age of Anguish will set the tone I desire, leading into the Age of Destiny will give the players the chance to help shape the history of Modern Golarian in my campaign world.

What I would like to find:

  • GMing in Pathfinder Guide.
  • Timeline of Golarian (specifically the Age of Anguish and first century or so of the Age of Destiny).
  • Physical Maps, or period maps with political boundaries (such as they were).
  • Movers and shakers, who were they back then? (I did find this thread on the deities of various eras).
  • Protips! Always welcome.
  • I am still fleshing out the campaign, obviously, I don't mind any ideas y'all might have.

Thanks in advance,

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