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In my game, the group leveled after passing the "Screaming Face" trap, which coincides rather well with the mid-point of the adventure, and once more after the Observatory.

Had a long post typed up, but somehow, the board ate it :(

Here is the gist of things: I've got a Vecnite PC in the party. Shoudl i remove the "Auto reveal" from the secret doors in the Vecna temple? It seems a bit of a letdown, but on the other hand, doing so robs the character of a chance to shine.

Hi everybody...

I'm currently running Three Faces of Evil (Yeah, we only started last November...), and the group is now ready to tackle the final temple in 3FoE, the Temple of Vecna. We have the following Group.

Human Fighter 4
Human Druid 5
Human Cleric of Kord 5
Grey Elf Wizard 3 / Cleric of Bahamut 2
Grey Elf Ranger 4
Tiefling Rogue 4 (ECL 5)

Now, as you can see, the group is pretty big and should be able to get through the Temple with little trouble. I'm considering one thing, though:

The Tiefling Rogue is an aspiring Assassin is a Vecna worshipped, and thus, the Labyrinth should be wide open and devoid of anything but a protracted chase and kill for her. This somehow seems like a waste of good playing time, and makes the whole maze a lot less interesting.

On the one hand, this makes me think that maybe, i should just remove the "Auto Reveal" from the Secret Doors. She can still open them as a free action, but Vecna, being the nasty god of secrets, just does not give away the position of these doors. On the other, it seems as if this is one chance for the character to reap a tangible benefit from the interesting backstory, as well as invite some interesting intra-party roleplay (just why does she know that...)

Your take on this?

Prohibited in the Arena (immediate disqualification):

[...]

3. No utility items (tanglefoot bags, alchemist fire, smoke sticks, thunderstones, caltrops, etc.).

Number 3 removes a lot of interesting options. I'd uphold the ban on Smokesticks and similar conceilment items - the audience wants to see whats going on. Otherwise, i'd make these items fair game.

4. No concealment effects or spells (invisibility, hiding, etc.).

Short-term invisibility (2 turns or less) is an interesting special effect, and i'd allow it... it probably sends the crowds gasping if a fighter just disappears, to cruelly exploit the enemies vulnerable spots moments later.

What about Blur and other effects that grant a miss chance, but don't result in a very boring "Black Box" scenario?

8. No curative, regenerative, or resurrection spells allowed during matches. Cleric medics will tend to fallen foes at the cost of the sponsor. Curative magic may be employed only after the match is decided.

I'd allow prepared curative spells. A lot of groups can't properly function without their healbot, and have come to base their tactics on readily-available healing. Forbidding healing items serves much the same purpose (keeping matches at an interesting length) without being quite so limiting.

Just my $0.02...

Can I get in your game? Just joking, but thats how things play out in our group with trans gender gaming.

I agree you do needlessly limit the range of characters you could play?
Here is a real roleplaying challenge? Who has played a homosexual character?

Let me rephrase that: "Who has played a homosexual character who wasn't a raging lesbian?" ;)

I have, but didn't really enjoy it so much, it tends to soak up screen time, and gets old really fast.

Just saying...

My very personal "Hit list" (As in, hit head against object whenever i come across one:)

* Downer - Down with Downer, its just so unfunny...
* Portent - Just not my kind of humor
* "Unbreakable" Dungeons - Face it, the PCs can't handle 39 encounters without going to town to rest and resupply. Dungeons should either be short and sweet, or allow for this.
* All monsters, no roleplaying - Backstory, and "interaction-worthy" NPCs are a must for each adventure.

My most important concern is seeming arbitrary in my judgement. After all, i am even less impartial in this case than otherwise. Somehow making the flaws evident probably helps. I guess one way would be to have some "contigency wishes" and their effects ironed out before.

As for the concrete example, i would usually also opt for a cascade of "greater dispel", but on a more general principle, i am sorely tempted to limit wish to the "standard uses" only for NPCs. However this is quite a bit off its potential.

How do you handle it if an NPC uses these magic words? Wish is a horribly complicated thing to judge if you above the standard effects, and any NPC with wish is an open invitation to DM fiat.

More specifically, since its usually flawed when used above its default abilities, you as the DM can usually come up with an interesting way to twist the wish... but it becomes progressively harder if both improve and hose your own challange.

For example: A BBEG the (high-level) group faces is surprised by the group storming into his throne room. He is alone, and unbuffed - the party is all suited up with tons of buffs and equipment. He uses his ring of three wishes, stating "I wish your magic to fail you". This would usually translate to a Mage's Disjunction... but that's a 9th level spell. So some kind of flaw must be worked into the wish. But how do you work out just what is reasonable without seeming (or even being) arbitrary?

Alternatively, do your villains ever use wish at all?

I don't see how the party could get the drop on the kenku, unless they've got a wand of secret door detection and 2-3 party members with impossibly high spot and listen modifiers. The secret doors are supposed to be silent and they open without the kenku expending an action, so the kenku can essentially get surprise and sneak attack almost every strike. The party gets at most one counterattack before they flee around the corner and slip into another secret passage that the party hasn't found yet. They can also use sounds to lure the party a ways into the maze before attacking, which worked well on my party. Maybe an elf rogue autodetects the secret doors half the time, and if he gets lucky near the entrance he finds the one the guard is using to keep an eye on things--but even if you roll inish...

This all assumes the party does not contain a worshipper of Vecna. I think the secret doors immediately reveal themselves to all Vecna-worshippers. Since my group contains a neutral worshipper (though not Cleric) of Vecna, i am thinking of changing that fact. I consider it besides the point of Vecna anyway. He wouldn't give away valuable secrets just like that.

Why would you need thirty pages to say "BBEG wanted to take over the kingdom; a small band of heroes tried to stop him/her; Evil won and enslaved the kingdom?" In truth, the background for AoW would take longer to tell than this one...

Well, besides describing the stage (as with any AP so far), you also need to detail quite a bit of the opposition beforehand (which no AP to date does). The usual process seems to be to start with a setting, and slowly introduce the opposition, while first remaining very much in the "present time".

I don't say it can't be done. I just think its harder than to start with "Green Acres" and move gradually into hotter water. With an AP you need to start small. And rebells against the system can usually not afford to start small, since the danger level is extremely high from the get go for rebel scum. ;)

That said, if someone managed to pull it off, i would be most impressed.

Wow. This topic has really taken off.

Some ideas here I have really liked.

The villain is a dragon. Not Tiamat. Not a dragon god nor a dracolich. Not a half-fiend dragon errand boy of a demonic overlord. But a true dragon – a great wyrm who has awakened to a world all too ready for a new master. This is a beast of vast intellect, sublime patience, savage cunning and an unquenchable will to dominate. The younger races have forgotten their true king. It is time to remind them.

As far as which color, well, you see I have this colossal red just lying around…

Definitly agree. I have always felt that Dragons where shortchanged most of the time, being relegated to mid-level challenges. I merely am a bit cautious about red dragons because they are more then just a bit worn. Besides, the metalics usually have a somewhat stronger punch.

I like the idea of the PCs becoming lords of a kingdom fairly early in the campaign. That gives them real buy-in to the plot. Why must they win the war? Because their home is on the line. That also allows for tough, interesting decisions. Do you reinforce your eastern border, hire a new unit of mercenaries or buy yourself a buff new magic toy? Build an army, clear monsters from your lands, deal with ancient rivals and would-be usurpers to your throne, all the while slowly learning that something powerful stirs beneath your holdings and looks upon the free lands of men with envious eyes…

See? It could be cool.

Gary

Here it gets iffy for me. While its a good concept for a free-flow campaign, i really doubt it would fit into the "module" format that is a necessity for dungeon. Besides, it is a very open scenario, where the characters have a lot of story-impact choices to make, while an adventure path has a rather rigid structure. I doubt you could really give them the "lord of their domain" feeling, and still retain the strict structure necessary.

I see some problems with both the "Star Wars" and the "Birthright" campaign.

The first has the problem of requiring a rather complex background available from the get-go. While this is not much of a problem if you aim for a hardcover right away, for a magazine, this will likely be tough. The backdrops are a squeeze every time i see one. Now imagine that, plus thirty pages of backstory why things got so bad... hard to pull off.

The second one is great if your players dig "empire building" and a good deal of politics, and day-to-day management. However, pretty much every group i every played with appreciates winning the formal recognition of some important political group - but enjoys laying the smackdown on a BBEG even more.

My personal wishlist would definitly include the BBEG of the AP to be a dragon. If that dragon is too wuzzy by itself, give it some template, or class levels... but its Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Demons, in the end. ;) Have that dragon build an army, have it amass artifacts, the works... but it should be pretty much a homegrown threat. Making it a "fallen gold" would be icing on the cake, for me personally at least.

So changing the effect of summoning is arbitrary, but denying the PCs access to the sphere is not? I fail to see your reasoning, especially considering that most PCs will have been carrying the talisman for the last 11 adventures.

There's nothing wrong with making changes with the encounter as written if it will make the battle more fun for everyone.

Okay, i don't want to derail this thread too far, and this is more a "general DMing" question, than related to the topic at hand, so i'll only briefly reply.

Let me put it this way, then: It usually is immensely unpopular to remove capabilities the PCs have written down and integrated as parts of their character. It feels as if you cheat them out of something they earned.

The scenario is in your hands, however. The players don't know it, so you'll never disappoint them, or take away something they consider to have earned. Exceptions may apply, but usually its much better to alter the world then to "nerf" PC abilities.

There are certainly plenty of spells and feats in supplemental books that can have a huge impact on the game. However, Kyuss would not be very difficult to defeat even using core rulebooks only. The biggest problems with the Kyuss battle are the sphere, and the degree to which he is weakened by various actions of the PCs. I haven't yet run this encounter, as my game is still at Gathering of Winds, but I'll give a few pointers that I think will make the final battle more difficult (and maybe more fun!).

1. The sphere is the only thing that can destroy the unlife vortex. Destroying the vortex deals a major blow to Kyuss, weakning himg greatly. This presents the characters with the option of waiting to use the sphere on a powerful Kyuss, or weakening him first, but not being able to actually use the sphere against him.

2. The sphere is destroyed after it touches Kyuss. Taking half his HP in one hit is good enough. It shouldn't be able to do it over and over again.

3. Kyuss has allies. In particular, he should be surrounding himself with broodfiends. Make one of them his familiar.

4. Antimagic shell :) I know I keep saying this, but it's a really great tactic.

5. Dimensional lock affects entire city. This will force characters to use Gate outside of the city, and they will likely have to choose "contractual service" due to the longer duration.

6. As another option, Kyuss's evil power might cause any summoned or conjured creatures to be evil. In this case, it would be impossible to summon celestials.

Just a few ideas.

I'm afraid 5 is not really an option, the Dimensional Lock specifically only affecty Kyuss and his associates, not the PCs. So you can't really prevent them from summoning. 6 may sound great, but is sheer arbitrary decision, for which your PCs will probably be less then thankful, especially since it cuts into the "things i can normally do", instead of beefing up the opposition, or tweaking the scenario.

I am only just about to start the whole affair, but am going to use the Dragotha fight as a "sounding board" for Kyuss. Depending on how well they do, i can scale the challenge in Dawn of a New Age up or down. Since you have obviously already concluded that the PCs will walk through the fight without a problem, here are some suggestions:

One good (or evil) tactic might be to keep Lashona around for the big showdown. It makes sense that she wants to "midwife" Kyuss, even going so far as to endanger herself to do so.

Another of the simplest things really would be to deny them the Sphere. Take it out of the picture, and their most potent attack vanishes. In case you want to keep it on hand, Lashonna might be tipped off about their newest capability, and get her own Talisman.

Additionally, if the PCs opted to destroy both the Unlife Vortex and battled despair, they probably spend a significant amount of time. So much time, in fact, that its not unreasonable to rush them to the Final Fight... that is, Kyuss is there, ready or not. No free round of damage. Or even worse: He is there, the worm tornado descends... how fast can you get to the top of the Ziggurat? Kyuss is not dying of old age - the contrary, in fact.

I also fully expect any Broodfiend, Kyuss Knight, or in fact anything the PCs have not killed while ascending the Ziggurat to rush at maximum movement into the battle as soon as the first blow is struck. Which may make things a bit more interesting... even if they are not much of a threat anymore, filling the playing field with your creatures can make the squishies think twice before going full offense. And if they intentionally create a completely "free-fire" zone, well... see the previous idea.

Possibly, WoTC plans to release similar books in the future, in which case they certainly would not like to increase the amount of competition in that segment.

Also, they might object to the scenario as "too potentially damaging" to the overall world. This is one issue i do see with Savage Tide. If the players truely manage to slay Demogorgon for good, then this must be incorporated into the "big picture". Maybe these "ultimate BBEG" types should have plot immunity in their eyes.