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Character: Crull Gutterax
Class/Race/Level/etc: Barbarian 3
Module: Wormwood Mutiny
Cause: Swallowed by the whale!
Details: After being wounded by the devilfish in the previous chamber and taking a critical (and grappled) in the first round against the Brinebrood Queen, he was swallowed taking just enough damage to drop him into unconsciousness. No one else could finish off the Whale quickly enough to prevent him being digested.

Character: Lendis Saquin
Class/Race/Level/etc: Sea Witch 3
Module: Wormwood Mutiny
Cause: Lacedon food
Details: Since the player was going to be a way for a while, I had his character be the one captured with Sandara during the night raid. During the fight against the Brinebrood Queen, while the barbarian was being eaten (see above), our brave captain dove in after the two captives. Having to choose one or the other, he naturally went for the redhead...

After two years of playing, you'd think our group would have more casualties but as you might surmise, our pace of play is a little on the slow side.


I wouldn't worry about it. There is no part of the AP later on that relies on her explicitly. She's referenced here and there, but never required to be alive to complete the AP.

It's nice to have an "adviser" for the PCs, but Ambrose (or any other NPC) could easily fill that role.


Runnetib wrote:
So when going after allies, Sandara Quinn is mentioned. It saysshe can travel with the PCs, but it seems more like she struck off on her own at some point. Is there a place where it calls this out that she's leaving in the earlier books? If so, I missed it.

It depends on what has happened with your group and leaves it open to either option.

If she left the PCs at some point along the way, then she can be sought out as described since she will have embarked on her own career path.

If she stayed with the PCs throughout the AP up until this point, she can't be used as an external ally since she has no other resources to offer.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that a swimming PC who was tripped was pulled under water...

If I had to rule on it, I would say it would be an automatic pull downward of maybe 5 feet.

The closest I can find in the AP is from the Cauldron encounter:

Quote:
Characters tripped within the Cauldron must make a DC 10 Swim check or begin sinking to the bottom of the chamber at a rate of 15 feet per round.


EvilMinion wrote:

Bah, the PC's are press ganged to start out.

This would lead them to not necessarily have appropriate skills at all at level 1. Though such things should develop organically from level 2 on up.

They should be encouraged to keep that in mind.

I'd be disappointed were I GMing this, and all the players went all metagamey and came to the table with characters designed to be sailors.

I don't really see that as meta-gaming at all. They're press ganged in Port Peril - pretty much the pirate capital of the world. It would feel a lot more odd to me if a press gang crew picked up a bunch of people without any sailing experience in a place where most people have spent a good deal of time on a boat.

Regarding the OP - I think one social skill (even intimidate) and a rank in profession(sailor) are most important at level one, but not even everyone needs it. So, I'd say just let them do what they want and let the chips fall where they may.

My group are mostly sailor-types, but there's a couple who are quite the fish out of water.

As for other player investments, they just have to weigh how good they want to be at something. If you want fairly standard siege weapons and moderate attack bonuses, sure, let an NPC take care of it. If you want more exotic weapons - even cannons - and have much better bonuses for attacks, then a PC will have to make the investment for it. The gun-slinger in our group will be crafting cannons when the time comes, I'm sure.


We just finished taking the Man's Promise. That battle itself took nearly a month (real time, of course) and had a couple PCs into the negatives. We started playing in May so if we keep up this pace we should be finished the first book by next summer.


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Tormad wrote:

A couple questions. My party just left rickety's last night and are out making a name for themselves, and I was just wondering what cities I should be aware of that they could go to besides port peril and blood cove? I am not very familiar with Golarion but want to have options for the crew.

Second question is what port did your parties choose as a "home" port when they hit the first infamy threshold? I know mine is looking at Port Peril just because they don't really know many other options so this goes back to my first questions.

Thanks in advanced.

Well, to start, you could take a look here: Shackles Map

Of course, they could also head south to ports along the Mwangi coast or Sargava. The ones mentioned in the AP are: Eleder, Crown's End, Port Freedom and Senghor. You'd need to look those up elsewhere if you wanted more detail about them.

EDIT: Ninja'd!


Well, it sounds like a difference in play style from your description. My PCs realize that death can happen in any encounter at any time and usually take pains to avoid it.

If anyone in the party (through a knowledge check) knew that cyclopes had the flash of insight ability, perhaps they'd deduce that taking six on at once would have been a bad idea. Even if you didn't fudge the numbers, losing one PC in an encounter like this (ie. storming the castle) seems like what you'd expect. Likewise for the Great Mother. If the PCs even have the inkling that something looks like a trap (being a rogue has no bearing on it), then maybe it's best to go a different route.

Of course, most players have learned over time that they can just stumble through adventures and survive despite poor planning. The APs that I've played are rarely like that. They're quite often very deadly if you don't take numerous precautions (at every level). I don't see this as being an exception.


It sounds from your description that the cyclops all confirmed their critical hits. That's particularly unfortunate for your PCs, but certainly not the norm. When power attacking, they only confirm at +9. I would expect the AC of most front-liners to be well into the 20s by 9th level. Heck, even with an AC of only 20, half of the crits wouldn't confirm.

Regarding the the Great Mother, if the PCs expect a trap and take time to look for hidden things from a distance, they should be able to take 20 on their perception checks, right? Of course, they still might get unlucky since they'd need in the mid-30s to see it, but any party I've ever seen would have at least one PC able to do that by 9th level.

Even if they couldn't see the danger, why the heck would they walk in? "Oh well, I don't see anything but it sure feels like a trap. Let's go in anyway!"

Besides, can't it just take the -20 to its CMB for the grapple and keep using its slam at the same time? Perhaps I'm just mis-remembering the rule, but I thought big creatures could grapple only with a limb (or in this case, by being engulfed) and still keep the rest of their attacks. Of course, if it's using its slam against others, then only the constrict damage should be applied to the engulfed creature (average of 34.5 per round)

EDIT: Hmm - it seems that the -20 to CMB just allows it to avoid the grappled condition. I can certainly see where the author may have made that mistake though. I'd allow it as I described above even though it may not be the exactly correct rule, because it's a way to help keep the PCs alive a bit longer (the one inside will have twice as many rounds before killed). I seem to remember there are other creatures with tendrils that could grapple only using that limb at -20 as well. Were they able to continue attacking with their other limbs? I'll have to look that up.

It sounds difficult, but certainly not impossible. I guess we'll see in a while how my 15-point buy PCs fare.


You realize that the link you provided specifically says that a metric ton is a measure of weight, right?

Quote:

This article is about the metric unit of mass.

The tonne (SI unit symbol: t) is a metric system unit of mass equal to 1,000 kilograms (2,204.6 pounds).


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On a related note, I'm going to be using a different table for the sale of plunder in various communities than what is shown on page 62. The reason is that PCs can generally sell goods for about half what they would cost to buy. Commodities can be sold closer to their true value, but they are stolen after all, so no matter how large a city, the base should be less than 100%. Also, it'll be easier to use a fixed formula for the DC to increase the sale price (since most of them are equivalent anyway):

The DC to increase the value of the sale is 10 + 5 per 50gp

Size / Base / Maximum (all based on GP for 1 point of plunder)

Thorp / 400 / 550
Hamlet / 450 / 600
Village / 500 / 650
Small Town / 550 / 750
Large Town / 600 / 850
Small City / 700 / 950
Large City / 800 / 1100
Metropolis / 900 / 1200

So, the PCs can get 50% pretty much automatically at any decent trading port, while getting full value will take a little work (DC 20+) even at the largest trading centres. After all, what merchant would pay more for something than he'd be able to sell it for himself!

As others have mentioned, if the PCs spend a lot of time haggling over prices of things, they'll start getting a reputation as nothing better than "opportunisitc" merchants.


Thanks Mort. I had a feeling we were talking about different things since I *do* primarily use the metric system and tons and are most definitely a measure of weight. Of course, as you point out, things are different if you talk to a sailor since they have quite their own vocabulary.

Wow - after looking up "Tonnage" I see that it's a measure of volume roughly 1/4 of the volume of the vessel, but it's untyped so a direct conversion to m^3 for instance, is impossible. What an odd usage!

Reading the relevent portions of the AP, they seem to be using "ton" in the sense of weight (which is good for the bulk of us reading it) since for smaller vessels they refer to cargo capacity in pounds (rather than tons). Of course, that still brings up the problem that one ton of cotton is going to take up a heck of a lot more space than one ton of ore. I guess this is something most of us will be hand-waving.

Since my game is running online, I'll have the time to do some conversions, but I'm not sure my players will really care too much for the details.


vikingson wrote:

metric ton = 1 square meter (9'x9'x9'squares)... then go by comparative density...

Huh? Metric Ton is a measure of weight, not size. One metric ton is 1000 kg (or 2200 pounds).


Size will vary greatly depending on the material so I wouldn't try to find a particular measurement for it. For example, it's written in the first book that Plugg as a chest with 2 points worth of plunder inside. That would have to be one heck of a chest!

For resource-type things (like cotton, lumber, etc) you can hand wave a particular size, but some things they find will be quite valuable for their size (gems come to mind).


Cojonuda wrote:

Hi all.

I have two questions:

1) The plunder is 1000 gp. It is suggested to spend 1 point of plunder to pay the crew. How often (is it per week or per month)?

2) It seems that after a few piracy events (Sea Wolves Event 7- Raiders of the Fever Sea), the PC's could end up w/ ~ 7 points of plunder in a 1 week period of pirating. After getting rid of crew payment that equates to 6000 gp!!!!!!! I am concerned that th PC's will get wealthy fast and start buying magical equipment/armor/weapons, etc. Does S&S took this into account? Could this be mitigated? Will this bring an inbalance to the game?

THX

1. They're quite vague regarding paying the crew. I think the intent is that they aren't being paid regularly, but instead as a small percentage of each haul - which seems reasonable given the circumstances.

2. I don't really see this as being a problem. At this point in the AP, the PCs should be on their way to 5th level. Going from 4th (beginning of book 2) to 5th, they should earn 4500gp *each* according to the wealth by level chart. So, getting 6000gp (only 1500 each for 4 PCs) is certainly not unreasonable.


I'm loving these ideas. Certainly unique! For the Isle of one-eyed sheep, I think I'll be making him more of a farmer (who also owns sheep). That way I have an excuse to give him a scythe for a weapon. The meta-gamers at my table will definitely think twice before going toe-to-toe with a cyclops wielding a x4 crit weapon.


Gnomezrule wrote:
LOL. You would think. I am a player in Curse of the Crimson Throne now before the end of the first book there was talk of storming the castle and diposing the monarch.

Ha.

Well, all things being equal, Harrigan can't afford to kill off his entire crew, so if they start acting up he'll just have to put them in their place - maybe killing one or two but not them all.

Heck, in my game, the barbarian was keelhauled for killing Tam and after surviving, Plugg put his magic manacles on him to keep him in line. Command at DC 25 neuters the toughest PC before any fight even begins. Naturally, if he's seen without wearing his new manacles, he'll just be killed on the spot. So, although escape is technically not too hard, there are severe consequences.

Maybe I'm just lucky to have reasonable players. Of course, playing online (PbP) gives them a lot more time to consider the wisdom of their actions so that may also have something to do with it.


Well, I fortunately have players that are somewhat cautious so I had a little time to show just how much of a tough guy he is. In particular, he's the meanest, toughest guy on the ship, so by showing how tough some of his underlings are, the PCs were able to deduce a fair amount regarding his ability without having to rely on saying things out of character.

In particular, I had Peppery use some magic early on. If you have some excuse to let her cast some 3rd level spell, they'll know (somewhat metagaming, I suppose) that she needs to be at least 6th level. Knowing that she served Harrigan was enough for them to decide against trying to attack him.

If you need more examples, it wouldn't be hard to make an event where Kipper, Patch, Plugg or Scourge got into some sort of combat. Single-handedly, they should be able to deal with any crew member on deck. You may even let Plugg use his tidewater cutlass to show what kind of magic he has at his disposal.

I would think any reasonble group of PCs would think twice about taking on a group of NPCs that are at least 3 or 4 levels higher and outnumber them 2 to 1.


sabedoriaclark wrote:
One thing I feel this AP is missing is a bit more direct interaction with other pirates/adversaries. Harrigan is there, true, but he is untouchable when you're on the Wormwood with him and distant/absent most of the rest of the AP. I know it is tough to write that sort of stuff in because if you present a character as a potential adversary there's always the chance the players just attack and short-circuit that plotline. So here are some adversaries I'm presenting my party:

The more I read about your changes, the more I'm inspired. I expect that I'll be taking bits and pieces from just about everything you're doing and use it in my game.

Of course, since my game is running online, I have lots of time to prepare things which is great. So far, we've been playing for about 4 months and should encounter the Man's Promise within the week. At this pace, it'll be 4+ years to finish, but we're having an awesome time.


Despite being an amateur sailor, I know very little about ships of this size and configuration. Thankfully, my players tend to know less so terms I throw out and generally just accepted and we move on. The narrative is more important than the technical details.

Regarding the chance to drop into the water rather than on deck, the PC in my game intentionally jumped, diving to the water some 60ish feet below. Thankfully, there's actually rules for this in the AP at the entrance to riptide cove (page 46).

The other reason I really like this modification is because 5d6 damage is almost never fatal to a level 1 PC *on its own*. I simply had the cleric in the party swabbing the deck while the event was going on, so had he fallen, the average damage would have been 17.5 but 23 damage would have been needed to kill the PC outright (Gunslinger with 12 con, so 11hp). Anything less, and the cleric is right there to stop the bleeding and save his life.

If the same sort of thing happens in the bilge, as soon as you're below 0, you might as well be rolling up a new character. So, despite how nasty it seems, I think it's far less cruel than what was written (and more cinematic/fun to boot).


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For anyone still aboard the Wormwood, here's a small modification I made:

In place of a character being ganged up on the bilge on Day 19, I instead changed it to an attack on a character while working in the rigging.

The setup: The PC to be targeted is assigned to work in the upper rigging along with NPC#1 which is hostile towards them. NPC#2, with a similar outlook, is in the crow's nest.

The trigger: NPC#1 calls the PC a slacker for having not affixed a line properly. This is a signal to NPC#2 to cut the support of a sail which will fall onto the PC. The PC gets a sense motive check (DC 9) to recognize the signal.

The trap: I modelled the falling sail as a trap where the PC gets to make a reflex save (DC 15) to avoid getting entangled, unable to move until free of the sails and associated lines (escape artist DC 15 as a move action).

The follow-through: On following rounds (now in combat time) NPC#2 yanks on lines and such to use "aid another" each round to help NPC#1. NPC#1 spends his time (unarmed) trying to either grapple the PC and throw him off the spar, or simply bull-rush him for the same effect. If successful, the PC would take 5d6 damage falling to the deck (though, he gets a last ditch DC 25 climb check to catch himself on rigging on the way down).

NPC#2 gives up helping after round 3 and climbs back into the crow's nest, since by this point, if the other two are still struggling they'll have certainly drawn the attention of those below. NPC#1 doesn't give up as he'll probably be keel-hauled one way or another at this point. The consequences would be the same as listed for the event as written. If the falling character doesn't die (certainly possible if a cleric is waiting below, for example) then they *only* earn a day in the sweatbox for attempted murder. I gave 600xp (CR2) for the encounter if the PC survives (one way or another).

Anyway - use or modify it if you'd like. It was a lot of fun for our group and made a little more sense to me than having Plugg and Scourge randomly strip a PC of weapons since everyone seems to be carrying them around all the time up until that point.


As fun as this thread is to read, I can't wait for someone to propose a One-Third-Elf or One-Third-Orc (or both!). We'll let the geneticists figure out how that can happen.


sabedoriaclark wrote:
I probably would have ruled that maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the crew had clear line of sight to the bolt...

I had written up a very similar post earlier today, but it got eaten and I couldn't be bothered to rewrite it. Basically - I agree with everything sabedoriaclark has written.

The players found a creative way to give themselves a tactical advantage and should be rewarded. At the same time, however, it shouldn't be an auto-win.

I'll add - I would also do the duration by percentages as well. A quarter of those blinded will recover after 2 rounds, another quarter the next round and so on. So, at best, you're only going to get one round (6 seconds!) of time while the opponent's ship might be uncontrolled. Still, it'll take them a while longer than that to fully recover and they'll be taking penalties until everyone can see again.


JohnF wrote:
(Well, as a mathematician...

Academic or industry? Personally, I love when I'm able to pull out a large number of "educational aids" when I talk about the proof to the fact that there are only five platonic solids. It's fun to start the class with "which of these things is not like the others..." and have them eventually pick out the d10.

Hmm - maybe I'll just replace all my d10s with d12s in my games. The poor d12 doesn't get enough love, if you ask me.


Well, you can't take craft wand until 5th level, and without giving too much away, you won't really have the opportunity to *buy* any sort of wand until about that level anyway.

As written, however, there are numerous places to pick up magical items *after* that point in the campaign (unless your GM is planning on changing things as Fitzwalrus points out).

So, I wouldn't count on anything specific being available for the first few levels but in the mid-ranges you should be fine.


Jubal Breakbottle wrote:
Tem wrote:
I have a gunslinger in my group, but with the scarcity of materials, he's only got 14 shots worth of gunpowder until he gets to level 4.
Hmmm. Did you limit it to 14 by DM fiat or was it from starting gold? If he's a gunslinger then he gets the gunsmithing feat, which allows:
OGC wrote:
You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price.

So 14 shots is worth:

2 powder horns = 6 gp
14 does of black powder = 14 gp (10% of 140 gp)
14 bullets = 1.4 (10% of 14 gp)
total 21.4 gp (not 160 gp)

Just curious
cheers

It was largely based on his own choice. Instead of using all of his starting gold on bullets and black powder, he spent some on the raw materials and I allowed him to craft it into usable material by spending ship actions. So, he opted for 4 uses and another 10 in (significantly cheaper) raw materials. The problem is that at the outset, he has no idea how long it might be until he's back in port to get more raw materials.

In retrospect, it would have been better to get only raw materials, but he would have had to know ahead of time that he wouldn't need to use his gun at all for the first couple days. I can't really blame him. After all, a gunslinger has a lot more leverage with even a handful of bullets in his pocket.


Ridiculously good offer on minis. Works out to less than 50 cents each and will keep going down as the rewards grow over the next couple days.

That's not to mention the approximately half-price paints, cases, etc. that are available as options.


DMRaven wrote:
What does he do in combat then? It sounds like he would be unable to use a majority of his class features for the entirety of the first book

Well, he's pretty good with a thrown dagger and a good chunk of level 1 is skill-based anyway. He'll certainly have to pick and choose his moments, but taking 2 or 3 shots per *major* combat will still last him quite a while. I expect he'll have to be resourceful towards the end of the book. At low levels, he's not really losing that much. Everyone's on a pretty level playing field in combat. Heck, our witch is one of the best fighters in the group due to his choice of ability scores.


I have a gunslinger in my group, but with the scarcity of materials, he's only got 14 shots worth of gunpowder until he gets to level 4.

I'll eventually allow him to make his own cannons for the ship. I don't see them as being overly powerful from a mechanics perspective - particularly for the costs involved. Besides, it'll help give these upstarts a bit of a reputation and perhaps the unwanted attention of the Hurricane King which should help smooth out some of the plot later in the books.

In general, guns will be quite uncommon, but I may toss in the odd related item here or there as Fitzwalrus describes (though, perhaps even less).


Well, your barbarian keeps getting better, it seems. Based on hp when raging, I would have to conclude that his Con is 14 or 15. How exactly does that translate into a fort save of +10 at level 1?

Also, the reefclaws, with their superior speed in an open environment just swam up to you and let you take the first swing? Initiative has nothing to do with it. They can charge you from 80 feet away. So, on that count, the DM was going easy on you. Believe me, this is a huge aspect to combat in general. With one charge and another charge into a flank, the odds are good that you're grappled before you get your first swing off. Even if you're not, neither will be staggered after the first round and they can do it again, plus the AoOs if you move away.

I won't bother commenting on the rest as it doesn't really continue to add to the thread. I'll simply say that the small errors that seem to come up in your game tend to favour the players. That, coupled with more powerful races and a 25 point-buy will indeed make the game feel a heck of a lot easier.


I know I should really let this go, but when people try to dispute my mathematics, I feel obliged to respond.

Even if you were incorrectly applying the -2 attack and half damage to the reefclaws, they should still eat the barbarian for lunch.

Using your own numbers, the barbarian's AC is 19 and raged when combat started, making it 17. Since your DM does not pull punches, the reefclaws must have been flanking him meaning they'd need 15s to hit (30% chance). Now, they're only doing (1d4)/2 damage per hit, but they get 4 attacks a round for an average of 1.2 hits per round.

Your own assertation was that it would take about 10 rounds for you to kill the first reefclaw. In 10 rounds, they will have hit you (on average) 12 times for a total of (12d4)/2 = 6d4 = 15 damage.

On top of the damage, 12 hits means 12 changes to grapple (occuring half the time against CMD 21) which would inflict constriction damage (not halved as per underwater grapple rules) for another 6d4 = 15 damage. You'd also have to make 12 fortitude saves or start losing strength (plus an extra one for each failure). Even a single failed save means your damage output goes down by 2 for each of your hits. Even if you only fail about 3 saves (assuming you have about +4 or +5 Fort Save) of the original 12, you'd probably fail another of the following 3, for an average of 4d2 = 6 STR damage.

For the time being, I'll ignore its effect on your damage output and still assume you can finish off the first reefclaw in 10 rounds.

So, unless you were extremely lucky, you played the rules incorrectly or your DM was intentionally going easy on you, you should suffer (on average) about 30 damage and 6 STR damage.

And that's only by the time you've dealt with the first one...


Varthanna wrote:
Dang. This just highlights the importance of knowing the rules. I think I went REALLY easy on my PCs in that encounter just by being ignorant (even so, I had one PC in neg and one at 0 at the end... probably would have been a TPK)

Oh, and don't forget the harsh drowning rules. In our game, when the last reefclaw was killed, its death throes knocked the attacker into the negatives. It took two rounds for her allies to get to her and another two getting her to the surface. Fortunately, she passed the first couple fort saves otherwise she'd have been the first PC death. Our cleric used every spell for healing and every channel during that encounter. One PC ended up with 11 STR damage and days later is still trying to shake the effects (fortunately, he's the cook). It's not an encounter my PCs will forget any time soon.


Are wrote:

In this case, the barbarian is a gillman. Which means he actually has a proper swim speed just like the reefclaws themselves. So that would likely account for a big part of the easy going on that particular encounter.

That's good point and one that I had missed. It's actually one of the reasons I don't allow non-core races for PCs. If I had to guess, a gillman barbarian will make a lot of the future encounters much easier than they are intended to be.


I spent a good long time looking at the underwater rules before running that encounter. I actually think it's pretty ingenious from a design perspective in that it gets the PCs (and DMs) feet wet with the rules before tackling the portions of the adventure later on (pun intended, btw). It also goes to show how brutal water combat can be. The rogue in our party was exhausted and exclaimed "What? A full round action to move 5 feet? Ugh." Needless to say, he wasn't terribly useful in combat.

Once a reefclaw grabbed a hold of someone, they spent their following actions pulling them away from the rest of the group. Even at half speed from being in a grapple (20 feet), other swimming characters couldn't keep up using full round movement (15 feet). It certainly gave a feeling of helplessness which really added to that encounter.


I'm particularly curious about how a 1st level barbarian (even if super-optimized) could reasonably take on 2 reefclaws simultaneously. I mean - what kind of weapon does that kind of damage? Besides, is 50ft base speed means he can move 25 feet as a full round action in water, or 10 feet as a move action. So, it would have taken him *at least* 8 rounds to cover 200 feet, not to mention the number of rounds required to do in the neighbourhood of 60 damage to kill them both. And he has 19AC? So, that's 17 when raging, right? And with two reefclaws with superior mobility, they must have been flanking him, right? That gives them 4 attacks a round at +4, meaning he'd get hit (on average) at least once or twice every round. And he made all the fort saves for the poison? And they never grappled him (even CMD of 21 means they'll successfully grapple on half of their attacks when flanked)?

(Our group has a barbarian, fighter, gunslinger, rogue, cleric and witch - yes, 6 characters - and two almost died)

Theft from the quartermaster's store is likely to succeed, but the caveat is clearly spelled out in the AP "If Grok finds evidence of theft..." From your description, evidence shouldn't be hard to spot since a good deal of the items are now missing! Also, the door to the quartermaster's store is only unlooked when she goes to give rum rations to the crew and always locked in the evenings (DC 40 to open). It also spells out that Grok often sleeps in the store, so that might be another aspect that your GM failed to notice. Finally, as pointed out by others the daytime ship action specifically says that you may make a single skill roll.

From your description, it looks like your GM is letting a lot of the details slide for your benefit. The island is much more combat oriented, however, and sounds more to your taste. Hopefully it gives you a bit more of a challenge (personally, I'm going to have to tone it down as many others have done or I'll be getting a TPK).


Grappled wrote:
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Entangled wrote:
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.

They're actually very similar (-4 Dex, -2 attack rolls, concentration check for casting spells, impeded movement)

I prefer entangled because I don't need to know the "grappler's CMB" for the concentration check. Also, I want the subject to be able to move but grappled prevents that (though, in both cases that portion could be waived if fetters are not included). The other penalties for grappled (no AoOs and can't perform actions requiring two hands) don't seem to fit for me either. In fact, with handcuffs on, it would actually be much easier to use a greatsword than it would a sword and shield!


So basically, by the rules, once you put on a pair of handcuffs, you're completely unable to move in any way. I'm a little disappointed that there's nothing in between.

Perhaps entangled is a better model for the effect I'm going for, though perhaps with or without the movement restrictions if you want to use fetters in conjunction.


Do there exist any rules for what penalties are associated with wearing manacles? I suppose in an extreme case, you could compare it to being "tied up" and/or "pinned", but I want to have a character in manacles and able to work (think chain gang). If said character decided to put up a fight, it wouldn't be reasonable to assume they're completely helpless.


I'll preface this post by saying I've never actually tried the following idea, but it seems no harder to implement than anything else posted here.

Why don't you let different people roll different dice for their initiative rather than just assigning static bonuses? I like the idea of using Dex (or Reflex save, if you want something that increases with level). I also like the idea of including ACP to initiative which makes intuitive sense. I also agree with most of the others here that wisdom makes for a better fit than intelligence. Since wisdom is your "instinct" stat, why not have your wisdom bonus determine what die you roll:

WIS Bonus:-----Initiative Die
-2 or worse---------1d2
-1---------------------1d3
+0--------------------1d4
+1--------------------1d6
+2--------------------1d8
+3--------------------1d10
+4--------------------2d6
+5--------------------2d8
+6 or better--------2d10

Personally, as a DM, I always pre-roll enemy initiative, so it's really no more work for me and players' wisdom stat changes infrequently enough that it shouldn't cause too much trouble for them either. The one thing I like most about this is that you can also narrate *why* someone ended up going first. Was it because they can simply move quickly (no ACP and/or good reflex save, despite a low roll) or because they had a feeling something was about to happen (perhaps low reflexes, but a good roll indicating instincts).


It has been mentioned elsewhere that he's supposed to be a werewolf and that the wereshark description was a mistake.


James Jacobs wrote:

Makes me hopeful we can push things even further in the future, perhaps with Adventure Paths where we require the entire party to be composed of elves, or where everyone in the group must play worshipers of the same deity, or where the party must all be composed of paladins, or an Adventure Path that takes place entirely in a single megadungeon.

I don't mean to derail this thread any, but..

I eagerly await all of these things (just replace "elves" with "gnomes").


Perhaps I'm missing something, but there doesn't seem to be a range listed for the Water Lung Hex. I assume it would be touch, but many other hexes have a range of 30 feet. Has there been errata covering this somewhere?


Jubal Breakbottle wrote:
I think you would only need to crew half the ship's cannons at any one time. Generally, these crew come from the idlers (officers, carpenters, cooks, quartermaster) and off-shifts of the topmen.

Well, a broadside of 10 cannons would be half of them (I'd assume you'd put 10 on both sides of the ship).

So, at a minimum, you'd need 81 crew on a sailing ship if you want to fire them every round (20 crew, 60 gunners and a pilot). The problem is that the 60 gunners are basically just sitting around most of the time otherwise.

Now, if you want your ship to be sailing 24 hours a day, you could have some people double up on duties. That is, if all your crew is trained with siege weapons, you might be able to get away with only 40-50 crew - particularly if you're willing to take a penalty to your Prof.(Sailor) check to pilot the ship during combat as some people get reassigned to firing the cannons.

Firing every other round, you'd need 10 crew minimum to pilot the ship and 30 gunners. You could also switch that to 20 crew and 20 gunners to avoid the sailing penalty but fire only once every 3 rounds. Also, when not in combat, you'd have two shifts of 20 crew you could use to sail all day and night (working in 12 hour shifts each). Of course, you're bound to lose some in combat so you might be safer off with at least another dozen or so to fill spots as people fall.


All things being equal, if you have a broadside of 10 cannons, it would still be pretty cumbersome to have 60 extra crew around to operate them. In practice, you'd probably want 2 or 3 per cannon which means the ballista would still put out more damage per crew member if you want to compare them in that way.

Remember, crew being used to operate siege engines are above and beyond those needed to pilot the ship. After all, you can't be raising sail and loading a cannon at the same time. So, the capacity of your ship will end up being a limiting factor.


The bulk of what you need is on page 19 of the player's guide: "Firing Siege Engines"


The "load" and "aim" statistics for siege engines represent the number of full-round actions required. So, if you have multiple people working at the task, it can be completed quicker.

From the player's guide:

Quote:
Ballista, light 500 gp 3d8 19–20/×2 120 ft. P 1 0 2

It has an aim of 0 and a load of 2.

Quote:
For example, a light ballista loaded by two creatures takes 1 round to load the siege weapon, since the creatures each take one of the two necessary full-round actions to do so.

So, for the light ballista you get:

1 crew can load and fire every 3 rounds
2 crew can load and fire every 2 rounds
3 crew can load and fire every round.

For the cannon,

Quote:
Cannon 6,000 gp 6d6 x4 100 ft. B and P 2 1 3

It has an aim of 1 and load of 3.

1 crew can load and fire every 8 rounds (double time to aim with diminished crew)
2 crew can load and fire every 3 rounds
3 crew can load and fire every 2 rounds
6 crew can load and fire every round.

Of course, having the feat "Master Siege Engineer" cuts these full-round actions down to move actions allowing for far less crew.


Well, to allay some of my worries, I went and added up the xp rewards throughout this portion of the AP. The rough breakdown (per PC, in a 4-person party) is:

24K - exploring the island
33K - Fort
32K - Sumitha
33K - Spoils/Rumrunning/Dinner Party

Given that the PCs will be 9th level at the start, they only need 30K to get to 10th level which can easily be done, even if they miss some encounters on the island and do only the portions of the Fort which can be completed without the Immortal Dreamstone.

By the time they finish the exploration and defeat the cyclopes, they'll have earned about 80+K experience, which will put them into 11th level even before their party starts. If they managed to find absolutely everything in the book, they'll be pretty close to 12th level by the end (particularly if they start just above the minimum for 9th).

I just have to decide how I'm going to run things with my 6-person party. My inclination is to simply award xp as-is and let them lag behind by a level, but I'll probably introduce a couple beefed up encounters here and there to help balance out the action economy and prevent them from falling too far behind the recommended level at any given point.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hopefully someone notices this thread and stickies it along with the others.

I was also just reading that section and my greatest concern wasn't that specific encounter, but the point at which the PCs are supposed to get there.

The book seems to indicate that the PCs may either explore the island a bit or go straight to the fort when they arrive. If they explore a bit, it could be pretty messy if they run into the cyclopes at level 9 (though, I suppose one level, by itself, isn't a huge game breaker).

To quote from the AP:

Quote:

The PCs should be 10th level before venturing into the ruins of Sumitha. They should have explored the majority of the island and reclaimed the abandoned Chelish fort before this point.

Is this a little odd to anyone else? Don't they need to deal with the Immortal Dreamstone to put Bikendi's ghost to rest and stop the haunting of the fort? How exactly are they going to claim the fort before heading to Sumitha? I haven't counted up the xp, but there may be enough between the portions of the fort which they can finish and bits of island exploration that they'll be 10th level before entering the Eye of Serenity, but it seems most groups would still be 9th when they get there.


mbauers wrote:
If the PCs are smart and make good decisions (avoiding the cornfield with the heads-on-sticks inside, fleeing Riptide cove after saving Sandara instead of "clearing out the dungeon", etc) I think they should be rewarded for that, IMO.

I completely agree. I've been giving individual xp so far in the campaign (though, we're only on "Trouble in the Sun" from book 1) but I'm going to switch to "plot" advancement. When they've done everything they need to in order to advance the plot, they go up a level.

For the time being, however, it should be interesting that some of the PCs will be 2nd level while some will be 1st when they encounter the Man's Promise. I have six PCs, so it should balance out fairly well.


Dreihaddar wrote:
Lets imagine I want a new arm made of animate bone (not necessarily bones from his hand, perhaps sahuagin bones, just for flavor?) that allow him to manipulate items from afar using his ghostly powers! Just add the cost of a 'Hand of the Mage' wondrous item to the price of the arm and voila, creepy telekinesis mage hand thing! (For 1350 gp! Not bad!)

How about a non-physical arm? That is, make the "arm" a magical item that produces a permanent illusion of a ghostly arm. If you add your mage hand idea to that, you could still manipulate objects with it. That would probably be a pretty cheap replacement (as you point out) without giving the player any serious bonuses and pretty awesome fluff besides. The Hand of the Mage would be a good baseline. You could offset the cost of the illusion by the fact that the range of the mage hand spell would be limited to where the ghostly image of the hand can actually reach.

I'm definitely going to use this for an NPC somewhere down the line in the AP.

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