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Nobody agreed on one individual idea, but they agreed the DR bypass had problems and they would prefer a better alternative.
Some people thought it would be interesting for a scaling DR bypass (like bypass 5 points of DR at 5th level, 10 at 10th, 15 at 15th etc), I myself preferred a more 'Clustered Shots' mechanic (and proposed it). There were quite a few ideas tossed around, but no one idea was universal.
The point was, people didn't like the Brawler's Strike ability, they wanted something different instead of just another Monk rip-off.
James Jacobs wrote:
Have you tried sending out a mass email to all of your writers saying, "KYONIN IS NOT ISONLATIONIST!" and nothing else?
Yes but I highly disagree that the Brawler needs a different way to get through DR then the monk. I was very happy with it even if some very loud people thought it should be done differently.
You might want to go back and re-look at the Brawler threads. I once started doing a count of the people threads that brought up and had issues with the Brawler's Strike ability, and I stopped when counting when I realized there were far more people who had issues with it, than didn't.
Out of the ~50 people posting in the first Brawler thread, I had 30 people counted that brought up problems with it before I stopped (not because I wanted to, but because we had a 7 hour power outage and I was unwilling to do it again). It's hard to do a completely original count as most people who posted in the first thread, posted in the second.
Now this doesn't account for the non-posting feedback, but out of those posting, the majority had problems with Brawler's Strike.
Granted, yes, there were some very loud people opposing the Brawler's Strike, goodness knows I was probably the loudest one, but in this case, the majority of people posting also had issues. So it wasn't just a case of the loud people making a mountain out of a mole-hill, the majority of people had issues as well.
Some people simply had issue with it being a Supernatural ability on a non-supernatural class, and they were satisfied with SKR saying they're changing it to an Extraordinary ability. Many others still had issue with the ability as a whole, especially since many people had issues that so many of the Brawler's abilities were taken straight from the Monk (Flurry, AC, DR bypass etc). Instead of coming up with a new or interesting method of bypassing DR, they just gave him a virtually identical (though better) method as the Monk.
Antagonize needed an errata. Before the current version it was way to powerful and a guaranteed BBEG killer. The most powerful wizard on the planet, is still a s*** in melee compared to full BAB martials. You give something like a Barbarian the ability to force someone like Karzoug to drop whatever he's doing, fly into a rage and rush across the battlefield to smack that upstart Barbarian with a little stick, and the Barbarian is going to crush Karzoug's skull like sparrow's eggs between thighs.
James Jacobs wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
A reminder: personal insults are not OK towards any community member, including employees/former employees. It is not helpful or productive to single out an individual in this way. If there is something you feel strongly about that an employee is doing, please communicate with us via email (email@example.com). Take a moment to revisit the messageboard rules and consider this when posting in the future.
It might be nice if the webmaster communicated back when you *do* bring up such issues.
I suspected, but I didn't want to call it out until I knew better. There's no reason to be cautious about dropping Sean's name, especially considering his stances on the classes have been pointed out multiple times as being 'unyielding' on multiple classes in this playtest.
Personally, I think Stephen's input was fantastic in the playtest, he was very receptive of criticism, input and alternate ideas and was willing to talk about the whys and why nots of different ideas.
James Jacobs wrote:
And personally, after two EXCEPTIONALLY DIFFICULT Adventure Paths in a row for me, I'm eager to do something more classic and less "INVENT A NEW RULES SET LIKE MYTHIC OR TECHNOLOGY FOR THIS AP" type of campaign... ;-)
So you're saying that the Psychic Magic AP is unlikely to be next?
James Jacobs wrote:
Can we use our *imagination* and pretend one exists?
PC 2 hands down. The amount of crazy damage players can unleash far surpasses the limited HP creatures have. My last session saw a Level 12 Fighter/Mythic Champion 4 do something like 600+ points of damage against a Tarn Linnorm (CR 20) with max HP. Funnily enough, I'm playing a super defense Monk with pre-errata Crane Wing in that campaign and while I can be slightly annoying to hit, my offensive damage comes primarily from bonus damage dice (adding falling damage to my attacks, Mythic Elemental Fist from Monk of the Four Winds, Bane property etc), and even then, I do only a fraction of the Fighter's damage (a full attack with 6 hits dealt ~150 damage while one of his crits does ~120 damage on average).
As a GM and from a player perspective, optimized killing machines are way more troublesome than optimzed tanks. Tanks allow the Monsters to still take actions, killing machines don't because the monsters are dead.
With a tank, as a GM you can try alternative options like maneuvers, spells, inflicting conditions or penalties etc. With a killing machine, the Monster has to 'not die' in order to be effective and that can really push the limits of believability. If every creature has to have 900+ hp just to last 2 rounds, then what the hell is the point of the monster having Hp in the first place? Put a round counter on him and that's how long he has till he dies, or something like that.
I think, where he's coming from is this: when designing a character or build, as yourself how you would feel if a similar character was thrown against the party. If the answer is you absolutely do not want that to happen, then you probably shouldn't play the character. To expand it, ask your party how they would feel if a copy of your character was used as an enemy against them; if they don't want that to happen (even if you're ok with it happening), then you probably shouldn't play that character.
I can see how this would be a better example from a 'break the campaign' issue. The reason being that, if you ask a player which he would rather play, a defense specialist who wears down his opponents slowly with minimal risk, or an offense specialist who deals so much damage his minimal defense isn't usually an issue, many people will go with the offense specialist.
Why? Because the offense specialist is going to feel like a total badass. There are many people in the world (in fact, I'd go so far as to say the majority of game players) who want to see their characters be ungodly machines of destruction.
Tangent about Video Game Mentality in Pathfinder:
I don't know if you play FPS video games or not, but in FPS games, they almost always show a scoreboard of some sort after a match, highlighting your kills to deaths and the overall points you scored. If playing a deathmatch style game, then you score points by getting kills (or maybe assists), while other gametypes (domination, capture the flag, king of the hill etc) allow you to score points by completing the objective, but killing people often gives equal points.
How does that apply to Pathfinder? Because in a FPS game, on the scoreboard, if you see someone with a K:D spread of 22:3, they killed a lot of people and rarely died. The defense guy, conversely, would have something more like 5:0 so he never died, but he also didn't contribute as much to the team.
Defense guys are great for objectives though, and can score lots of points by holding objectives or defending bases, while the offense specialist might be assaulting objectives or bases. So you might see a score of something like 3,000 points and 20 kills for the offense guy, and a score of 3,500 and 8 kills for the defense guy, but he scored more due to special objectives.
Regardless, for many people, playing the offense guy is more fun, because it's proactive. The defense guy might go through long periods of waiting for enemies to get to him so he can finally do something. Then he gets a chaotic few minutes of play, and then back to waiting.
But Pathfinder is an RPG not a FPS!!! Yes, this is true. But in the context of society as of today, kids are growing up playing Battlefield, Call of Duty, Halo etc. and also playing games like WoW, League of Legends, SW:TOR etc. and then they start playing games like Pathfinder, with a previous mentality of the other games.
So the new players are changing the way the game is played and thought. For them, killing is what makes them feel powerful, not surviving anything thrown at them. They will argue, that killing everything is how they survive, not slowly whittling them down.
The point is, if you give a player a choice between a killing machine that has low to decent defense, or a tank with super high defense, but low to decent offense, most people will choose that killing machine because it *feels* more heroic to be wading into enemies, tearing them limb from limb with your awesome power and being drenched in blood. People want re-enact the scene from John Carter vs the Martians, because it's an epic scene, not be the guy waiting for the enemy to come to them and take 10 minutes to kill.
TL/DR Video Games strongly influence the mentality of new players and competitive games have forced people to think in context of a Kill to Death ration as an indicator of how badass they are.
Man! I wish I could run this scenario, but due to real life delays and some game issues, we've been playing CotCT for 5 years now and the players just kind of want it done. Plus, after this campaign, we're going to start splitting the group up because there is a list of people wanting to start playing, but all of 'our' GMs are playing in each others games, or running games themselves.
How do metamagic with special effects and spells that target multiple people (even the same person multiple times) interact?
Specifically, I'm referring to a dazing magic missile, would a person targeted by all the missiles have to make multiple saves? Or a toppling magic missile, do I get to make multiple trip attempts on the same person?
I ask because I've currently got a level 13 admixture Wizard with 4 Archmage mythic tiers and magic missile is one of her mythic spells. If she were to augment it, then it would fire double the normal amount of missiles (10 total) and each one deals 2d4+1 points of damage and bypasses spell resitance, spell immunity and shield spells or effects.
If dazing, or toppling were to apply to each missile she fires, then she could force 10 will saves, or make 10 trip attempts with a single spell. This same line of thought applies to spells like scorching ray, or contagious flame as they are both capable of single, or multiple, targets.
Now, I'm inclined to believe that the affects of such metamagic feats would apply to each missile or attack of the spell, as a dazing fireball would daze anyone in the area of effect that fails their save. The difference is that fireball only has one save, while a dazing magic missile could force up to 5 saves (or 10 if using mythic).
On the other hand, this makes spells that can single target, like magic missile very good choices for the effects of feats like dazing or toppling spell. Especially if combined with heighten spell. Even worse if one has a dazing metamagic rod as they could force multiple high DC will saves or lose their turn for multiple rounds.
James Jacobs wrote:
If I recall, the robot from Fallout 3 was actually based off the Iron Giant in appearance.
Honestly despite how critical I've sounded the only class I really dislike in the ACG is the hunter.
I agree, I don't think the Hunter really fills a niche that hasn't adequately been filled by others. Although, I think the Arcanist gives the Hunter a run for his money for 'unneeded class'.
I'd have much rather seen like a Barbarian/Witch combo (or something like that) to represent a Warlock or a Wizard/Cleric class.
Paladins are not martial clerics, they're champions of Law and Good. Who they worship doesn't really matter to the mechanics of their class.
Clerics are the full casters of a God and the instruments of their will. They are the voice and the ears of their God.
Warpriests are the weapon and shield of their God. They fight the wars, and defend the servants of their God.
While Warpriests and Clerics can both do similar things, one is better at something than the other. Warpriests are probably going to be better at fighting than Clerics, while Clerics will be better at casting than Warpriests.
Remember, there are no NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, or NE Paladins in the game. Faiths of those alignments, up to this point, have had no 'Paladin' that serves those alignments. Warpriest fills that niche.
As it stands, you basically make a full party of Divine characters to play as.
For Skill Monkeys, you have Inquisitors and Rangers.
I would love to see a party consisting of an Inquisitor, Warpriest, Cleric and Druid in action. It'd be a pretty mean little combination as each one would be capable of healing each other if they need to.
No, it is not GM Fiat territory at all. You are the one introducing a house rule that then forces it into GM Fiat territory in order to 'win' an internet debate.
Fact of the matter is, you don't need an 'obvious indicator' to trigger a readied action. This is a house rule on your part. All you need is to state the condition of the trigger, and if that condition happens, then the readied action triggers.
If you want to argue 'basic concepts' then by 'basic concepts' people who fight a lot are aware when their opponents do and do not take defensive stances. They can spot openings in their guards and momentary weak points.
So on the point of 'basic concepts' your refute still fails because 'real' people can employ the concept of striking an opening in their defense.
I think you simply have nothing to back up your argument and now you're resorting to petty little insults, like claiming dead people get to act in my games.
Fact of the matter is, you have very little, if any, ground to stand on, and instead of willing to admit that, you're going to keep trying, and failing, to make arguments against a lost cause.
Guy St-Amant wrote:
I dunno, I grew up playing Final Fantasy on my best friends Super Nintendo, I just didn't like any of the versions that came after. Loved Legend of Dragoon though.
Where does it state you have to ready an action vs some obvious indicator? For ease: Ready an Action.
No where does it state that you must ready an action that can only be triggered by an obvious indicator, only that you ready an action against a condition that triggers it.
My condition, is "I ready an action to attack after his fighting defensively condition drops, and before he restarts it".
In real life, this is waiting for someones guard to drop. It might be they shifted their foot, their hands were out of position, something caught their attention and they quickly shifted their vision to look, etc. It might even be something as watching for a lessening in the tension of their muscles or a change in their breathing.
I'll link to an anime example: Kenichi Episode 17. Now, I don't know if you are familiar with the anime or not, but I'll explain a little. Kenichi is a student of, essentially, level 20 Monks. In this clip, a rival dojo has come to 'take their sign' by fighting one of the Masters and defeating them. The Masters aren't there, so it's up to Kenichi (and Miu) to defend the dojo's. The big guy is basically a master of defense, he claims his body is like iron and he can't be hurt (aka, he's using the Crane Style tree and fighting defensively).
Kenichi is, during this episode, being taught to look for 'openings' in an opponents defense, and he has to learn to strike without being scared of a counter-attack (it happened earlier in the episode). At around 1:16, the big guy relaxes his guard, and Kenichi attacks.
In Pathfinder context, Kenichi had a readied action to attack when the Big Guy's guard was down (I think his nickname is CrabHead). Between one round and the next, the Big Guy has to restart his defensive stance (either fighting defensively, or total defense). The round starts, and the Big Guy's turn comes up, and Kenichi's readied action triggers.
The Monk can't ready an action until his turn, while the T-Rex has already readied an action to attack before the Monk can begin Fighting Defensively again. So before the Monk can ready his action (and a readied action doesn't count as an attack for the purpose of Fighting Defensively), the T-Rex gets to go and chomp the Monk.
Also, the stand off reminds me of another thread where we talked about what happens when two Come And Get Me Barbarians with Mythic Combat Reflexes gets into a fight. Every Attack provokes and they can make infinite Attacks of Opportunity, so they end up interrupting each other forever.
Divide by 0.
Which is kind of the point. You can list all of the Official Pathfinder classes off the top of your head, it's very difficult to do the same for the various editions of D&D.
Weren't there also campaign specific classes for Forgotten Realms/Drgonlance etc?
One of the Designers stated that the Swashbuckler's base class did this intentionally, because not all GMs allow Guns, nor did all Swashbucklers use them either.
There will be archetypes for the Swashbuckler that use guns, however, as that is still a fairly iconic part of swashbuckling.
As for Gunslinger, you claimed they were the fourth worst class in the game. Personally, I rank them higher than that, because they are still better than Cavaliers, Samurai and Ninja. But that's going to be the last I say on this subject as I don't want to take the thread any more Off-Topic than we have already.
Aelrynith, lots of abilities don't carry over to further rounds, for example many auras from Wizard School powers, or Domains, or even items, like Boots of Speed. They require an action to activate each round unless they state that they are activated for a number of rounds.
Fighting Defensively says you must attack in order to gain the benefit, same as Combat Expertise or the Defending Weapon property. At the beginning of every turn, you must make a choice between attacking, or not attacking. If you don't attack, you gain none of the above benefits, if you do attack, you can gain the above benefits.
Until you attack that round, you don't have the benefits, and they don't carry over from the previous round.
Hypothetical situation involving your claim that the benefits of Crane Style don't end at the beginning of your next turn.
Crane Style character moves up and attacks an orc, thereby activating Crane Style.
Round 2, the benefits of Crane Style linger on for the Crane character.
Crane character moves away from the Orc, using his Crane Wing to deflect the AoO if it hits, because the benefits of Fighting Defensively have lingered as you claim. He activates something like a Ring of Invisiblity, which is a standard action. He hasn't attacked this round, but the effects of Fighting Defensively lingered.
So here is the question, Fighting Defensively mandates you use a Standard Action to activate it each round before attacking (but you can still make a full attack while fighting defensively despite using a standard action). We know that neither Combat Expertise nor the Defending Weapon will activate in the above Round 2 because you must attack to gain the benefits of those two abilities.
We know from the PDT that you must attack to gain the benefits of Fighting Defensively.
So in round 2, you claim that Fighting Defensively continues on until the next round, yet if you don't attack, you don't gain the benefit. So to we retroactively allow the AoO from the Orc to hit? Or do we go with the actual rules that mandate using a Standard action and attacking each round to activate Fighting Defensively?
Unless an ability says this can be maintained each round for free (like Bardic Performance) it requires the same action to activate each round. For example, the Bedevilin Aura of the Phantasm Wizard School requires a Standard action each round to activate, because Supernatural abilities costs Standard Actions unless they state otherwise.
Fighting Defensively, Combat Expertise, Auras etc. must be activated each round unless the ability says otherwise.
You know, I'm surprised the Development team designs the AP based on the expectation that the average player has played one AP before or has 6 months of experience with Pathfinder.
In order for that to be true, there has a be a huge influx of new players all of the time, while experienced players have to dropping out at the same rate so that the average remains consistent.
I really think Paizo needs to re-think their expectations of average, especially since they don't even support their rules when it comes to designing encounters.
The game is balanced around a 4 person pary with 15 point buy and normal WBL, yet we know both the Iconics and PFS use 20 point buy, and I know that the modules, APs and Society Scenarios are often way above WBL (JJ said they do this on purpose). Tables are growing larger and we know that the average table is now 5 or 6 players instead of 4.
So we have larger party sizes than expected, higher point buy than expected and a higher WBL than expected, so the game is being thrown wildly off balance. Mythic just makes it even worse as the Mythic Templates are nowhere near as good as the actual Mythic Paths.
The Crane Style tree reduces the penalty to -1 because of Crane Riposte.
Wait... Mikaze is keeping a campaign journal?!?! *Remembers Mikaze's story of Laori Vaus...*
I gotta find this and read it! I hope it doesn't flounder, I recall Mikaze never finished Laori's story, and I liked his write up of it.
I'm sorry, I've never heard anyone but you complain about the Gunslinger being a bad class other than it's OP. By all accounts I've come across, people acknowledged that Gunslinger does it's job and does it well; it's job being ranged support and damage dealer.
Role: Gunslingers are thunderous artillery, often found where the fighting is fiercest. Brave, clever, and frequently foolhardy, many gunslingers push to position themselves at close range, barrels blazing, to take down their foes and demoralize their enemies. Other gunslingers are masters of distant death, picking off enemies from afar with their strange and wondrous weapons.
That's the stated role of Gunslingers, artillery, killing foes, demoralization, and masters of distant death. You're complaining about the Gunslinger being locked into wielding guns, a ranged option, when that's the very intent of the class!
Tell me, do you complain about fighters being locked into fighting instead of being masters of Profession (baker)? Or why your Wizard isn't the unparalleled master of unarmed combat instead of the master of arcane magic?
You want to use sword and pistol, that's fine, but you're using the class in a way other than it was intended. That means you have to accept some limitations, like being unable to reload your pistol after the first shot, because you don't have a hand free.
As for melee, the only feat that's actually necessary to be good as a martial, is Power Attack. If you have that feat, you're golden. It's not like archery or other ranged weapons where you need Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, PBS, Precise Shot etc. Except, as a Gunslinger, you really only need PBS, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, anything else beyond that is simply gravy.
Every Gunslinger gets 15 feats over their 20 level career; for PFS, they get 2 bonus feats, one at 4th one at 8th. That means they still have the 10 feats they get normally, 6 feat if PFS, to do other things or flesh out other areas.
So in PFS, you could easily have PBS, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Power Attack and TWF by 7th level. This lets you play a Sword and Pistol character pretty easily. For example, you could have two Double-Barreled pistols as an opening attack, with one of them attached to a weapon cord. You fire both barrels on both pistols in the first round (4 attacks total), then drop one pistol (the one with the weapon cord), and reload the second pistol (a free action). Next round you can fire both barrels of your pistol as a standard action, reload, then move forward and draw your sword (free action). Once in combat, you can opt to attack with just your sword, or sword and pistol, but you provoke an AoO if you do so, but that's one of the limitations you have to accept.
Gunslingers are, mechanically, a great class, even though the mechanics of the class are, in my opinion, over-powered.
On the subject of Proficiency, funny thing, did you know that feats like 'Simple Weapon Proficiency', 'Martial Weapon Proficicency', and 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency', don't actually grant proficiency with the weapon?
Nowhere in the feats does it actually say you actually become proficient with the weapon, you simply don't take the penalty. So in the context of Pathfinder, I would have to say that not taking the penalty on the attack roll is the same as being proficient with the weapon.
Party of rogues.
Diminutive Titan wrote:
True, there are many different ways to approach a bounty hunter-style character; hell I once made a 4-person mercenary party specifically design to be a threat against players as they attempt to track down and capture the player party. The party was, I believe, an archer Inquisitor, Magus, Rogue and a Monk/Fighter/Duelist all 10th level.
One of the ways no one has suggested yet, is a Magus that uses Merciful Spell to capture people. For example, a merciful, intensified shocking grasp delivered via a scimitar (with Keen or Imp. Crit) is a potent threat. I used this concept in the above 4-man bounty hunter party. With Merciful Spell, you could even play a Wizard blaster or Sorcerer blaster, who prepares/casts all spells with Merciful attached, letting you play a 'violent pacifist'; someone who loves the destruction she unleashes, but abhors killing.
What you need, for a nice DoT, is heat metal via an Oracle of Metal. The other good one you need is frost fall via an Oracle of Winter and the Elemental Spell feat or some other method of changing the damage to fire.
Remember, blessing of fervor lets you extend the above spells (unless you metamagic frost fall) for free, doubling their duration.
Mythic Power attack by itself is still incredibly strong, however it becomes ridiculous when people start taking the Mythic Critical options, like Mythic Improved Critical or the Critical Mastery Champion power (the one that auto-confirms critical threats). We're playing a Mythic Legacy of Fire campaign, and the fighter is just destroying encounters.
As a 2-handed fighter archetype, he's getting double strength on his Fleet Charge (thanks to Overhand Chop) and then getting double his strength on all attacks after the first, while the first attack has no Power Attack penalty.
I believe he has a 28 strength right now, so during a fleet charge he's got +18 from strength and +18 from Power Attack, +2 from weapon enhancement, +4 weapon training (gloves of dueling), and +4 from Weapon specialization and Greater; totaling a +26 damage bonus before any other special modifier (such as buffs or his Bane property). He's using a Falchion and is regularly enlarged and has Mythic Improved Critical, meaning he's got a x3 modifier and a 15-20 crit range.
Due to the interaction of Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Improved Critical, any time he crits something, it's basically an auto-death because on a crit, instead of dealing 2d4+26 x3, he's dealing 2d4+44 x3 for an average of 147 points of damage. It's an auto-death, because he still gets to make his full-attack afterwards and with a 15-20 crit range, chances are good he'll get another crit.
A great player can make any class shine, but the question is what class can a bad player take?
Barbarian > Fighter > Paladin > Ranger. Barbarian is one of the easiest classes to play and one of the most powerful. Fighters are easy because mistakes don't hurt for very long and their job is pretty obvious. Paladin is a little tougher as you have more mystical abilities, but still quite easy. Ranger is a great class, but some wrong choices really hurts them, but it's still a pretty easy class to play.
Man made of Magic wrote:
You just haven't found out how deep the rabbit hole really goes.
Not sure if you're willing to take anything other than Ranger, but this is an NPC opponent I plan to use one day: The Enforcer. I believe he was generated with a 15 pt buy. I know I used NPC wealth by level and didn't select any traits, so, as a PC, he's pretty easy to upgrade.
If you take a trait for survival, and and swap some skill ranks around, he'd make a pretty mean bounty hunter, easily able to find people, track them down, and sneak up on them, before knocking them out and capturing them.
Also, for funsies, his name roughly translates to 'Non-lethal Fist' in Skyrim's Draconic language.
[Edit] I found the build progression for him, and I actually selected the Reactionary trait, so he has 1 trait left open, unless you change it of course. Also, I forgot to change his race in the PDF, he's actually a Half-Elf.
Here's his build out to level 13.
1) MoMS > Dragon Style (bonus) > Crane Style (Traits – Reactionary)
2) MoMS > Crane Riposte (bonus)
3) Ninja > Sap Adept
4) Ninja Trick> Weapon Training (Unarmed Strike)
5) Ninja > Dragon Ferocity
6) Ninja Trick> Flurry of Stars
7) Ninja > Dazzling Display
8) Ninja Trick> Pressure Points
9) Ninja > Shatter Defenses
10) Ninja Trick > Combat Trick (Sap Master)
11) Ninja > Knockout Artist
12) Ninja Trick > Unarmed Master
13) MoMS > Monastic Legacy
James Jacobs wrote:
Tyrants, all of you. :P
My aunt is at the end of her pregnancy (due any day now) and posts on Facebook that everything is making her cry.
So I respond with pictures of Carl and Ellie laying on the grass, Toy Story gang sitting on the porch as Andy drives away, and then the clincher.
Bambi's mom laying in a pool of her own blood as Bambi cuddles up to her corpse.
I blame Cosmo for my evil.