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Deep Crow

Tarantula's page

3,084 posts (3,106 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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Snowlilly wrote:
Magentawolf wrote:
Monks do not provoke because they have Improved Unarmed Strike, not because their attacks are natural weapons. (Which they're not)
Natural Attacks wrote:
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.

Emphasis mine.

Any attack made without a weapon is a natural attack. These attacks fall into one of two categories. Primary or Secondary.

It helps to look at the whole section.

Quote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Any attack made without a weapon is an unarmed attack.

If we now look at natural attacks.

Quote:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Monks unarmed strikes are not natural weapons, so they are not natural attacks. They are not primary or secondary, because they are unarmed strikes. They do count as a natural weapon for effects and spells, but it does not specify primary or secondary, so it is neither.

Natural weapons fall into 2 groups, primary or secondary.
A monk unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, but can be treated as one for effects and spells.
Because power attack requires a primary natural weapon, and a monk unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon, it does not apply.


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Snowlilly wrote:
  • 1. Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons. The degree of enhancement depends on classification; either Primary or Secondary.
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • 3. There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons and monk unarmed strikes meet all the criteria for Primary.

RAW has been provided. If you have RAW that runs counter to that, please provide it. Right now all anyone is offering as a counter is "I disagree."

I have provided RAW backing my position.

You are welcome to provide RAW backing your position.

1) Yes.

2) Yes.
3) No. There are natural attacks, and there are secondary natural attacks. Power attack mentions primary natural attacks, but these are not defined in the Natural attacks section of Combat. We can understand that if an attack is not secondary, then it is primary.

Quote:
If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Because monks do not possess a natural attack, they do not add 1-1/2 times their strength bonus on damage rolls.

Quote:
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

Secondary natural attacks get a lesser benefit.

Quote:
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

Because a monk is not adding 1-1/2 times strength modifier to his attack then power attack cannot increase its damage bonus by half.


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Combat wrote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

This makes it clear that unarmed attacks are not natural attacks. Power attack gives extra benefits to primary natural attacks. Unarmed strike is not a primary natural attack, so it does not get those benefits.


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Oddman80 wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Tremor sense and blind sense do not give line of sight. If he was invisible, they would also not be able to charge, because they cannot see him. They know he is in that space, but no line of sight is present. They are not precise senses, they let you pinpoint the square, that's it.
So an Earth Elemental that is fighting with another Earth Elemental on their home Plane of Earth (probably due to a territory dispute - you know those elementals...), will never be capable of charging his foe while earthgliding? That doesn't seem right.

Yes. Tremor sense gives you the square, but not LOS. You can't charge things you don't have LOS to.

The same thing would happen if you had blindsense, and wanted to charge an invisible creature. You know the square, but you do not have LOS to the creature, so you can't charge it per the charge rules.

House rule? I'd probably let you try to charge and apply the 50% concealment, but RAW is no charge.


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If I removed one of your arms, could you still take the action?

If not, then it requires 2 hands to perform.


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Provide some encounters that aren't combat solvable. Or at least, if they solve with combat, the rewards are vastly reduced.


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Quote:
Only if you define the spell as a weapon, which spell combat does.

Spell combat defines CASTING the spell as a weapon. Not the spell itself. Once the casting is complete, then there is no longer a 2nd weapon from spell combat.

Quote:

TWF: You get Thing A

Spell Combat: Thing A is replaced with Thing B
Whirlwind: Thing A is prohibited. Thing B is not.

Its the order.

TWF: You get Thing A.
Whirlwind: Thing A is prohibited.
Spell Combat: Thing A is replaced with Thing B. Oh, thing A was prohibited, so it can't be replaced.

Quote:
Of important note: It is legal to Combine TWF and Whirlwind; you would not get the extra attacks if you did so.

TWF is the extra attack. You cannot combine it with whirlwind. You can hold 2 weapons and whirlwind attack, but you cannot get the extra attack from holding a 2nd weapon.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
uncanny defense is giving an untyped bonus to CMD, which will stack with the dodge bonus you're getting.

Even if it was a dodge bonus, dodge bonuses stack.


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swoosh wrote:

I'm not sure I'd say 'very clear'. The section you bolded says you can't activate a style before combat starts, but the rules nowhere specify that your style turns off when combat ends.

Personally I've always thought the combat rule on styles was kind of goofy, especially for styles that have non-combat utility. "Hey throw a punch at me so I can get a bonus to climb checks" is a very weird thing to have to say, but that's neither here nor there.

Initiative wrote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

There's nothing that says initiative ends either. So by the same logic, you get 1 initiative check on the first combat, and that is forever your initiative.

That would also mean no one is ever flat-footed or surprised.

No one makes this argument with initiative, so why with styles?

I read the statement from styles like this. "You cannot use a style feat before combat begins" means, when you roll initiative, you are not using a style feat, because that is the beginning of combat.

Combat wrote:
1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.


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Bob Bob Bob wrote:
And, again, it's usually an action to activate these things. In at least two of the contests I saw the Wizard gave up the initiative, they didn't lose (Diviner is pretty ridiculous). If they see the martial on a flying mount, they may decide not to cede the initiative and open by Mazing it (before any of the abilities could be activated).

The wizard that tried to maze won initiative and did try to maze. It backfired on him.

I'm thinking about creating a sohei as well, just to remove the diviner from automatically going first. I have some other thoughts for how to remove the benefit of going first as well.


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Reflex partial and physical damage; ranged attack to hit and physical damage; reflex for half and physical damage; potentially reflex to negate, physical damage; reflex for half.

Still, a lot better than "doesn't do anything" that most other spells fall to under anti-magic. Plus, you don't get all those magical bonuses to your saves while in anti-magic.


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What would be more fun, is to take the combatants designed for the single arena fight, and throw them exactly as is to the escalating CR monster fight, or vice-versa. Take a character designed for escalating CR monster fight, and put them up in 1v1 situations.

Its not too hard to make a super specialized character who is great at their one trick. I think having to have rounded characters would equalize it out more.


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Shooting the arrow through it IS the experiment.

Quote:
If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

You cast the wall, archer gets a saving throw. He fails.

You free action say, "Hey archer buddy, thats an illusionary wall I cast to protect you, you can shoot through it!"
Archer gets another save at +4, because he was told its illusionary. He fails this, still can't see the wall.

Archer still sees a wall there, but his buddy told him its fake, so he can take a shot at a square where the enemy was before. The enemy gets total concealment, but he can attempt to make the shot. Once the arrow goes through the wall (interaction) he automatically makes the save and can now see through it.

Future attacks can be made without concealment from the wall, because it is now translucent for the archer.

Conversely, lets make it a real wall.
Caster casts wall of stone, blocking off the archer.
No save is required, the archer has seen his teammate use illusion tricks before, and thinks this is another one of those walls for him to shoot through.

He tries to shoot through the wall at the enemy, the arrow bounces off the wall, oops; guess its real this time.


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Bandw2 wrote:
well I mean the last one didn't even cast timestop. just greater possession.

Which would have been fine, had he not cast wall of suppression first.


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Unfortunately a lot of the martial goodies to fight casters aren't in the sources here. Equalizer shield, or cyclonic on arrows both are from sources not allowed.


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That or someone more familiar with the caster tricks could make a martial. Most of my play has ended ~12. So my 20th level experience is lacking.


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Quote:
Does the spellcaster need to show up personally and physically in their own body?

The answer to that was yes.


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Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Also, as far as the whole Magic Jar thing goes, for a 20th level caster wouldn't it be more expedient to just cast Greater Possession, which lasts 20 hours, at some point before the fight and just drive a Balor or something to the fight without worrying about the jar or your original body? When the enemy has carved through your meat-tank's HP, it dies and you pop into the nearest available square, none the worse for wear when your turn comes up.

The rules was the caster had to show up in person.


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Snowlilly wrote:

The Wall of Fire was legal, I just don't understand why the fighter wasted the turn he was given.

Granted, while most of the Paizo published methods for a fighter dealing with this situation are being banned (most Paizo resources are not published on the PRD), there were available options.

Then make a fighter and give it a shot! I completely forgot about mind blank, so I was hoping to catch the caster provoking, knowing I was unlikely to 1-round them.


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Dr Styx wrote:
It's a spell use item of a spell already cast.

That doesn't exist. Its a command word item. Its a special word you say, that makes it activate. It could be, "disguise me" or it could be something in a foreign language. Either way, you're not going to pass it off as not having happened while disguised.


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Or, follow the item creation rules, to make a constant hat of disguise for 2,000gp instead of the command word for 1,800 that already exists.


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swoosh wrote:
Quote:
Metal sansetsukons actually exist
Though as a point against that (and despite John's belief that it's impossible) there are metal sticks that actually exist too.

The book says all quarterstaffs are wood. It does not say the same about sansetsukons.


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RAW its a poorly written exploit.

RAI I agree that it should be spent as you cast the spell, no additional action required, and it changes that casting of the spell to be shared. This means if you wanted to cast it twice, and touch 2 different teammates, you would spend 2 arcane points to do so.


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Okay, I changed sides and built a level 20 fighter, but I'd like to do this PbP style where we send our sheets to an arbitrator so that there isn't constant one-upping on how it was prepared. We all know wizards thrive on knowing exactly what their enemies can do. Anyone willing to arbitrate?


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BigDTBone wrote:
cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone

This isn't in the PRD. Its from seeker of secrets. So not allowed.

I've almost got a fighter that can beat these diviner wizards in initiative, so every point counts!


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wraithstrike wrote:

I ran one of these by PbP before, and everyone submitted their characters to the GM, and then he submitted them to the "combat thread". That way nobody could metagame.

I think the OP should put a deadline on things by saying 1st level combatants need to be submitted by ____. The same goes for certain other levels.

I would do levels 1, 7, 13, 20. If he doesn't make things less free-form nothing might ever get done.

This sounds like the way to do it. Or if you're willing to run another one I'd love to participate.


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What about unchained combat tactics stamina pool? Its on the prd, so in the allowed sources, fighters get it for free. If the fighter takes improved initiative, he can spend 10 stamina to treat his die as rolling a 20, putting any fighter (or character who burns a feat on combat stamina) into the initiative game with the diviner wizards again.


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So what about an unchained rogue as the martial?

Advanced rogue talent they get quick shot. How can we maximize our chances of winning off this one attack at the start of combat?


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BigDTBone wrote:

Slee Papnea

1st round
Quicken Extend Suffocate - DC 30 Fort for 6 rounds

Suffocate is a close spell, you start 400 feet away. (200 foot radius for level 20). How are you closing the distance?


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_Ozy_ wrote:
How does summoning and people without goz masks deal with an eversmoking bottle?

Presumably summons have other forms of sight, or you just summon enough of them it doesn't matter. Area spells you don't have to see through fog either.


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Wrath wrote:
Cha martial talks wizard into being his friend. They walk up to shake hands. Martial kills him with surprise attack using sneak attack bonus from some sort of BS class combination I'm sure someone will know about somewhere.

Again, this is contingent on beating their initiative of 48. I don't think you can win initiative AND a meaningful Cha martial. I also disagree that you can stop this previously agreed upon fight by diplomacy. Presumably there is some very good reason why both characters agreed in this combat to the death. Probably with gods involved. Even if the wizard and the fighter were best of friends, they might still be willing to fight each other to the death in order to save their world from being destroyed.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Frankly - a Dex Sohei doesn't even need the VMC.

+12 from Dex

+4 Improved Initiative

+2 trait

+2 Elf thing

+10 Sohei ability

roll of 20

Total of 50 - ezpz

No traits; you're still tied at 48.


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_Ozy_ wrote:
I was assuming the 47/48 was before the roll.

There was no roll, they are also divination wizards and get to treat the die as a 20 for initiative. You're not a martial anymore, so now you just set a new bar for martials to beat.


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Its not opposed.


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I don't think being a variant multi-class wizard counts as being a martial anymore.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
So - a charisma martial can't win a fight with the wizard, but if they win initiative they will be able to convince the wizard...

Last I checked the wizards were at 47/48 for initiative. Hows the fighter looking?


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_Ozy_ wrote:
Would a Lavender and Green Ellipsoid ioun stone (absorbs 50 spell levels 8th and lower) be considered a one-shot item?

Its not magical after absorbing the levels, so I'd say its a one-shot.


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Wrath wrote:

Can you have custom items? Fighter will need them in an arena match.

Is there a chance for skill use? I mean PvP the right build could just outright talk an opponent into giving up with an opposed roll. Magic gear prevents mind control magic, but diplomacy, bluff and intimidate are not magic. What if I build my fighter to dump stat everything but will and charisma then just talk the wizard to death?

These are such wearisome threads. Yet strangely enticing....

Quote:
Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.

It also takes 1 minute of interaction. No go in combat.

You can use bluff to feint, or intimidate to demoralize in combat as normal. If you think that will help, go for it.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Can i just grab a ring of 3 wishes and wish the wizard dead the times but for it not to trigger until the round starts. sooo I wish that this wizard dies in 5 minutes and repeat.

I think that would fall under the "no one use items". Yes you get 3 wishes, but you get them once and then the ring is no longer magical.


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Chess Pwn wrote:

On round 2 cast quickened scorching ray to check for spell turning effects followed by Energy Drain

On round 3 cast quickened energy drain and energy drain
round 4-5 start casting summon monster 8 and quickened summon monster 8

Effect and area spells aren't effected by spell turning. So scorching ray and energy drain won't trigger it.


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DrDeth wrote:
zylphryx wrote:

Assume the following, where X is you, Y are goblins and Z is your target ... (following the spacing to keep the "diagram" in one piece)

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
X

YYY
YYY
YZY

You cast ray of frost. How many goblins do you affect?

You fire a arrow. How many goblins do you affect?

Doesn't matter, swarms are only immune to spells or effects which target a specific number of creatures. Not weapon attacks.


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I'll be a level 20 wizard. So we have a 200' arena and we start on opposite sides? Great.

Assuming no pre-buffing or can I have spells up at the start?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Guys, come on, common sense here.

if you have a swarm of diminuative creatures and can hurt it by sticking an arrow through the head of one rat, why can't you hurt it by freezing one of said rats solid?

Because the arrow isn't sticking through one rats head, but cuts through a number of them. The one rat you freeze solid isn't meaningful as far as hit points go. (16hp / 300 rats = .05hp a rat).

The average longbow doing 1d8 damage ranging from 1 nonlethal (1 damage halved to .5 round down to 0 means 1 nonlethal minimum damage) to 4, meaning 20-80 rats. The ray of frost is 1/20th to 1/80th as effective.


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If you have a cleric/druid/sorc/wizard with the appropriate spell, they can always stone shape you a stone mere club replacement for the time being. B or P 1handed and fragile with 1d4.

You can even try to craft it yourself, untrained. DC12 with a -2 for no tools. If you make the check (12) it only takes you 1 day! Presumably you can find an adequate rock and stone outside.

Or a wushu dart out of bone or obsidian (might be harder to find obsidian). Its a little harder of a check DC15 (-2) but still doable. Hopefully you could have your smartest person in the group craft it for you.

Not good for a swashbuckler, but clubs are always free. If you can get outside, and pass a DC12 (-2) check, you can craft a club without tools.


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Noir le Lotus wrote:
My only characters that are paranoid about their stuff are wizards !! Becasue wehn you lose your spellbook, you are just a walking wand ...

Get a bookplate of recall.

Quote:
This metal bookplate is inscribed with mystical words in Draconic, leaving space for a single written name. When the bookplate is glued to the inside cover of a book, the named individual may speak the title of the book to summon it as if using instant summons. This ability functions once per day.


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Arutema wrote:
Carry spares. At high levels, you're often wanting to carry a silver, cold iron, and adamantine version of your weapon so you can switch it out as needed to overcome DR.

At high levels, a +4 handles all of that.

Quote:

Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.

cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5


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"A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0."
It says it because normally a creature is unconscious when its hit points are below 0. It doesn't say, "is conscious regardless of any other effect."


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Arrows are not spells. An arrow would continue through some amount of rats and deal (halved) damage to the swarm. This is the same rational for a sword dealing damage against a swarm of rats.

The ray only affects one rat. It is magic and can only affect one. This is why it does no damage to the swarm. Why? Magic.

As always, if you don't like it, you can house-rule in your game, but its important to know what the rules actually say before you make changes.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
If you are flat-footed, because of some effect other than not having acted yet, and it is your turn, you can still make attacks, which is all that is required for flanking to happen.
Let's focus on the most common form of flat-footed for a moment... you haven't acted yet. Can you attack prior to your turn?

If there is no surprise round, or you were aware and had a weapon readied already, you could. You can't make AOOs because you are flat-footed, but you are capable of making melee attacks.

If its a surprise round, and you were unaware, you could not. Because "Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round." So you have no actions possible during the surprise round and therefore are unable to make attacks during that round.


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Quote:
Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.

Flaming deals extra damage on a weapon attack. If the swarm is immune to the damage from the weapon, then the swarm is immune to any extra damage added to the weapon damage, whether it be flaming, sneak attack, favored enemy, etc. Unless the ability specifically removes the swarms invulnerability to the weapon damage, extra damage on a weapon attack doesn't apply.

DR is bypassed by energy damage because it says it is. Swarm immunity to weapon damage does not say energy damage bypasses it, so it doesn't.

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