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Lion Blade

Tacticslion's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 12,099 posts (14,595 including aliases). 4 reviews. 4 lists. 1 wishlist. 33 aliases.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Noqual?

But cool stuff, nonetheless.

EDIT: also, there was an old 3.5 greenstone, whatever it was.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Snakers wrote:

You've obviously thought this out quite a bit and had it played out in your game, and with the further clarification I think it's brilliant. Good job. You do you, Tacticslion.

It's not my fault LE is my favorite alignment to play! Honest!

Hah! Ninja'd while I was editing. Also: thanks!

That said, it's a collaborative effort. The thing is, no one person can really come up with a "fool-proof" system... and even with a collaborative effort, nothing can be infinitely "fool-proof"... as soon as it's codified, it can be broken.

And if something "can't"... just give me a million typewriters with monkeys (i.e. "randomizers") - it'll be broken pretty badly in no time (though that might just be the typewriters being broken by all the monkeys, not to mention all the poo...).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Snakers wrote:
I wonder what happens to criminals who refuse to join the Crime Guild. Viciously, you say. And run by the government, you say. Sounds like the place LE inquisitors live in your LG kingdom.

Ah, here we go. People love to break things. :):
The fun part about fantasy things is that you can "viciously" prove things to low-level rubes without having to do so.

If there's something from out of country that doesn't buy it, an "anonymous" tip to the government handles such criminals, because it's an outside invasion.

Again - there are always limits to what can be done.

If someone does something actually evil that the 'Guild doesn't approve (and curiously, all of the "evil" actions the 'Guild sends people on, no one ever gets seriously injured or harmed and are ordered by people who'd do that anyway), suddenly loses the backing of the 'Guild for "internal political" reasons and must face the weight of the law.

It's an elaborate and very successful shell game, in other words, with a majority of people that don't know they're doing a shell game with players that function very well. Because people don't know they're working for something, it's not really a ruse, most of the time, but reports are followed up within the guild, and people wrongfully harmed are healed and aided by the government, with wrongful actors finding themselves in legal trouble.

Again - I love these boards, but I also love how people seem to have a strong desire to try and pounce on things and "prove" why something that is good (that actually does have the dignity and freedom of the actors in question) isn't by seizing on words and ignoring everything else of the context. It's a fascinating tendency and very telling.

But, more to the point... of course there are evil people. Evil people aren't smote by an army of paladins just because they're evil. They're smote in response to doing something explicitly evil that deserves smiting.

The point isn't that evil people can't exist. It's allowing them to exist and do what they want so long as it's not evil.

And the Crime Guild functions as a wonderful magnet for those who would do evil, and channeling their talents into doing little other than actually reducing crime against everyone that isn't secretly the actual ruler of the nation. It allows those who would engage in criminal behavior anyway to do so. It also ensures that criminals are doing so in a way that is secretly a controlled environment. Acting outside the 'Guild generates harsh punishments, because it strains the 'Guilds resources and ability to handle things if, say, a raid goes wrong. Other criminal gangs are, intriguingly, infiltrated and either recruited, or harshly put down. Rather like a band of adventurers is prone to doing. Because usually the put-down is from a band of adventurers who happen to receive anonymous tips. Or, if said rivals are the kinds of people that do terrible things, and the government doesn't get to them first, the 'Guild sends their own people that like to do terrible things and quickly end that nonsense.

Either way -> fewer criminals doing criminal things that actually harms anyone.

Of course, unless the Death Penalty was actually placed on those criminals, they are offered the chance of free resurrection as well as integration into the society they once (unsuccessfully) tried to be a part of. They're free to refuse, of course, but at that point, it's because they're either ready to move on, or they're choosing death over reform, and in either of those cases they'd cause more problems for Harathia than could be solved.

Evil people deserve a chance, and the 'Guild has no problem if you choose to retire. It's only concern is criminal activity not part of itself. And given that it has a very solid track record of either getting away with it or getting its members released, and all other crime has proven extremely unprofitable and actively harmful, choosing otherwise is stupid for many reasons.

(One useful thing to do, though, is stage "brutal enforcement" on people that are literally not real people. A powerful, tangible illusion will bleed and behave very similarly to a real entity. Such "demonstrations" of destruction of rival groups - which are also created by the king, mind - helps lessons linger in the underworld consciousness. "Did you hear what the 'Guild did to so-and-so..." is a powerful tool, especially when there are honest witnesses, and said characters are later made to "disappear"...)

Again - people are people. There will be criminals. Control the criminal activity to where it hurts no one but other criminal activity in a measure equal to the criminal activity while demonstrably and freely providing everything a person needs to avoid doing criminal activity successfully means that those who persist in it are criminal more or less by "nature" (that is, they have voluntarily chosen a life that they aren't going to change). Allowing them to lead full lives where possible and still not harm others is a feat nearly impossible in the real world. Fantasy worlds have few such limitations.

EDIT: Added a needed emoticon! That title and certain word choices looked far angier than it actually was upon re-reading! I hope my intent is clearer now.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
I've got a lot of problems with real world debt slavery, but it's probably possible to make it work in fantasy. :)

Sure. Mmmmuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch easier than in the real world, that's for sure.

Now you've done it - I'm rambling about our Kingdom:
The main issues here are:

- 1) is the person respected and treated with dignity?

- 2) has a financial transaction occurred in which money has changed hands?

If the first is "yes" then there is no problem, as respect and dignity include the normal legal protections for people.

If the second is "no" then there is no contract, hence no slavery. If the second is "yes" then there is an obligation. Effectively, you've been given a line of credit and are expected to work for it (whatever that work may be).

Very few, if any, real-world slavery elements (much less debt-slave elements) function this way for a large host of reasons.

Taken in a vacuum, such a system would be extremely problematic and prone to corruption and bad things.

Placed into the proper context of the kingdom as a whole, however, it allows for people to be more free (in a way) than they otherwise would be, albeit there'd likely only be limited subset of people who'd want to follow that route.

One of the reasons that it functions is that the slavery is always voluntary and pre-arranged (and has its limited term and strict behavioral limits).

It must be, or it is deemed illegal and negated by law.

Beyond that, with free education, guaranteed basic (if limited) charity, and ample supply, there isn't a real reason in most comprehensible circumstances for people to do so outside of a desire to do so or get something.

(And in those rare cases, the vast majority of time, someone who is not the would-be slave has done something evil, and, by all of Harathia*, said evil-doer will not get away with whatever it is.)

* Harathia is the name of the kingdom.

Harathia, by-and-large, is exceptionally blessed with resources, and a powerful devotion to both the freedom and prosperity of its people; but that also allows its people to make non-evil choices for their own lifestyle while mitigating them from negative consequences and protecting others from them as much as possible (most especially these others).

Harathia cannot and will not handle everyone's issues and lives, nor will it make every little thing better. That's stupid and causes an over-reliance plus creates a society uninterested in betterment. But it will do its best to ensure an at-least minimally secure potential average lifestyle plus the occasionally rare nicety.

Letting people sell themselves into slavery could be problematic.

Making sure they have education, employment, and charity options to see them through such things first, however, means that they're only doing so because they want to instead of because they "need" to.

And if there is a need for some reason... well, that's either handled by the government (in the case of someone else manipulating a situation to do evil - which isn't terribly profitable anyway), or the person in question managed to burn so many bridges and crash so meteorically into such a negative place, socially, that they can sell themselves into slavery or choose a life outside of society (because daggumit, if the wilderness isn't tame enough to allow people to just live off the land, if they like).

The government has its limits in ability. It's also pretty daggum impressive and has done nearly impossible things to make the land a better place*.

* Examples: all the rivers are holy water, while every square inch of land is hallowed and consecrated. The roads are protected from violence, and provide better sight to those on them than those off (well, many do - this is actually an ongoing project). The cities are as crime-free as possible, because all criminal acts in the country are controlled by the deeply mysterious Crime Guild... which is secretly run by the government, and who's assigned missions are explicitly targets the government (the king, specifically) has created with his own money for the express purpose of being valid targets of the Crime Guild while looking like normal, legitimate targets (the money that filters up through the ranks eventually makes it back to... him; this represents a sustainable loss, compared to his normal income); the Crime Guild is viciously protective of its interests, and actively recruits any petty would-be criminals. Bringing people back from the dead is free of charge, if Pharasma permits the resurrection and the spirit is willing to return (and divinations are made in advance to know this for sure). And so on. As a completely unrelated *cough* aside, 3.5 and PF rules mix together in really unexpected ways to create surprisingly potent results... >.>


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
hasteroth wrote:
<stuff>

Heh, ninja'd while editing.

If you read my edit, I think you'll find that my opinion is not so different from your own.

However, the point I was making was that neither KenderKin nor I made a consistent claim about what was or was not able to be expected.

The fact that Orfamay felt he had to quote me at myself to "prove" that I was wrong by pointing out the thing that I said that he thought was correct might indicate that he was seeing an argument that I wasn't making.

Again, look at my first post.

Look at the link I made therein.

Look at the arguments I made there.

My position hasn't changed.

thejeff wrote:
Definitely known and respected.

Hah! Awesome. :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KenderKin wrote:

If we want to use history as an example them the paladin is known and respected among the general populace

Orfamay Quest wrote:
[citation needed] <roll eyes>
Tacticslion wrote:
First page, my dude.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Repeating a wrong statement will not make it less wrong. As you yourself pointed out -- "To be sure, the class features and mechanics don't really have anything like that associated with it."

First, I didn't repeat a wrong statement. You asked for citation of an argument - that of, "If we want to use history as an example them the paladin is known and respected among the general populace" - and I provided one in the first page.

Second, I think you read an argument about class mechanics into a post I made that wasn't about class mechanics. Kenderkin said "if we want to use history" and in history people called "paladin" were known and respected among the general populace (by virtue of holding a political office). That statement isn't about mechanics.

I mean, the exact same guy noted,

KenderKin wrote:
thejeff wrote:
"The Sword wrote:
Stuff
But is that how the fantasy world works? Strict historical simulation this game is not.
That's what I said!

Beyond that, I just checked: this isn't a Rules thread. If it were, the answer would be clear: no, a paladin doesn't have authority just by virtue of being a paladin. That's not difficult. As this is a General Discussion, however, the question is able to persist because reading into concepts, historical associations, and individual play-styles (and assumptions about how absolutist mechanics and fluff are in any given table situation) all have variable answers.

That paladins mechanically have no automatic authority has no bearing on whether or not paladins have automatic authority in a game, because fluff-wise they are imbued with a moral authority (which, dependent upon GM, location, and many other factors) may or may not translate into enforceable (beyond typical PC-prone violent lives) legal or social authority in a local area.

The answer to the Thread Title is, "You are correct, unless the GM deems otherwise; or the GM and player work together to make a coherent narrative that demands otherwise."

That is, a player can't universally expect that they are granted authority. There are reasonable elements out there in the world and game writing whereby a player can reasonably come to the conclusion that they could, however.

EDIT: For fixing quote boxes to look less like a pyramid and more like a series of quotes. Also to add an important note. Then, while I was adding, I expanded a bunch. Whoops! I do that. Sorry.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also, c'mon: they're called "Poenix Down" - get it right! >:|

/FFfan

;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cuup wrote:

THanks, everyone, for the suggestions. The Phoenix Feathers sound pretty cool.

Tacticslion: Those are very amusing, though besides maybe the necklace, a bit underpowered for 18th level characters. Thanks for the read :)

I figured, but I've been in a hurry, so copy/pasted were easier than cold-brain storming ideas. That said... maybe a weapon?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
As The Sword said: What do you do when the person runs away or refuses to work?

In our kingdom's case, they are fined for the exact amount they were compensated for when they sold themselves in the first place.

If they lack the funds to do that (say, because they were somehow in debt in the first place due to poor decisions prior), then something is worked out akin to what would have happened if they were unable to pay their original debts, but those debts have now been transferred to a new entity.

Because they are a person, they are treated as a person - that means that if they should fail to live up to the responsibilities that they chose to place upon themselves, the penalties for defaulting on those responsibilities are the same as the penalties for defaulting on similar responsibilities.

"I took the money and spent it all, but refuse to work for it, also I've left." is a crime because you took something from someone on false pretenses - you've become, in effect, a thief.

If there is any abuse going on of the slaves in question; that, of course, is different. Whether or not something counts as abuse is directly related to the "decency treatment" (colloquial term, not official) laws that govern ordinary behavior between people. So, you know, don't be a jerk and show respect to others: no stealing, vandalism, harming, etc. except under justified circumstances (most often that of "self defense" or similar).

Then again, given that slavery is a voluntary, specific, and limited term state (unless something explicit is worked out on behalf of the slave and owner somehow), compensation goes to the slave, and they have treatment as "living persons" just as all do; abuses should be rare and it's less like "slavery" as most people are used to it.

Also, due to free education, basic mandated charity, and a limited regulation of certain economic functions, average lifestyles are pretty easy to come by; so slavery itself should be rare.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KenderKin wrote:

If we want to use history as an example them the paladin is known and respected among the general populace

Orfamay Quest wrote:
[citation needed] <roll eyes>

First page, my dude.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Harmless.

Just make sure he's got a solid will save.

Also, he's a superstitious barbarian (which fits the culture).

Maybe even a weapon of spell resistance (depending on their level/wealth).

Adjust the pricing-to-plus ratio, accordingly: SR 13 is a +1 bonus, SR 15 is a +2 bonus, SR 17 is a +3 bonus, and SR 19 is a +4 bonus... ooooooorrrrrr, instead, make it a straight formula of SR 13 = +4k; a +2 increase to SR (SR 15) is +9k gold and every +2 beyond that increases by double the amount the price increased previously (+16k for SR 17, plus 25k for SR 19, and so on); yes, this is just converting the armor cost to raw gold-value.

This ensures the situation isn't a "total loss" by the characters, and if you want, you can even make him of <insert target intelligence> who's sentience is then captured by the weapon for <reasons>, turning it into an intelligent superstitious rage-prone weapon that thoroughly resists magic and has the special purpose of dying "as a warrior should" or something...

(Or maybe just wants more combat or to teach its wielder the way of the warrior or courage or something.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:
How will races/racial traits be handled?
Ashiel wrote:
We're still deciding on that, honestly. Mostly, I'm wondering how much of an influence I want races to have on the overall condition of your character. There are pros and cons for making it more impactful vs more aesthetic.
Kryzbyn wrote:

So you don't think races will/should have any mechanical benefit?

That's interesting...

I don't think that's what he said, though I can see how that could be a take-away.

From my readings, he seemed to be on the fence about a spectrum of possibilities, ranging from one extreme ("more aesthetic") to another ("more impactful") and somewhere in between.

(He could just correct me right quick, though...)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

RE-POST

... this is a re-post from here to make it easier to find my own items, real quick.

HERE IT IS:

So...

... let's get makin'!

For fun!

* Disclaimer: I've already made these, I'm just putting them here for fun.

First, a(nother) disclaimer: these are (strongly) not likely to be exactly (i.e. "close to") what you're looking for, but they might be solid inspiration.

Necklace of Reincarnation:

Necklace of Reincarnation
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot neck; Price 53,000 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.

DESCRIPTION

This necklace is a bizarre, oily, and strongly scented fetish comprised of sharply scented copper coins, and a sack filled with weirdly pungent plant matter of various oils and spices that create a heavy, slick, striking odor. The bearer, naturally, has the same aroma.

Up to twice per week, it allows the bearer to use reincarnate on a corpse touched and prayed over for ten hours, and laying across the corpse (or ashes, or other tiny bits) of the person who is to be raised. If the prayer is interrupted, the effect is not wasted, but the process must begin again.

After ten hours, the corpse begins to re-grow from the matter collected from the previous one and the local environment, slowly, over the course of ten minutes. Though concentration is no longer required, if it is interrupted at any point during those ten minutes by any means (such as attacking the corpse, casting dispel on the slowly-reconstituting matter, and so on) the effect is wasted, and must be started over again.

Additionally, the target's new body seems exceptionally well-tanned (almost weirdly and unnaturally so) and smells like it was dipped in whatever it is that the necklace was, and retains that scent for one week, or until the negative levels or constitution drain is removed (whichever comes first).

Otherwise, this functions as the spell reincarnate... though some of these devices come with a few quirks...

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, reincarnate; Cost 26,500 gp.

Original.

[================================]

Amulet of Barely-There-Magic:

Amulet of Barely-There-Magic
Aura faint various; CL 1st
Slot neck; Price 15,180 gp; Weight -

STATISTICS

Alignment N (compatible with all alignments); Ego 1; Senses normal
INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10
Communication empathy
Special Purpose serve it's owner

The amulet's powers are not discernible by detect magic or identify. The special powers can be identified with analyze dweomer. The powers and the abilities of the base item can be learned normally. The amulet will use its stabilize ability on a wearer, if the bearer needs it.

DESCRIPTION

This (sort of) intelligent amulet (probably something like a holy symbol of a bunch'a' gods all smushed 'round the edges or somethin', I dun'no) can be used to entirely replace your cleric's orison special ability by 8th level, and probably a bit better (since you don't have to be seen casting enhanced diplomacy).

Constant: detect magic, detect poison, enhanced diplomacy, read magic
Command Word: create water (2/day), mending (1/day), purify food and drink (3/day), stabilize (3/day)

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, all the orisons used above; Cost 6,840 gp.

Original, Repost.

[================================]

Kerchief of the Shuffle Friend:

Kerchief of the Shuffle Friend
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 3rd
Slot neck; Price 7,000 gp; Weight -

DESCRIPTION

This garrish and dirty-looking rag wraps around the neck or hair, or sticks out of a pocket. When it's been worn for at least 24 hours, it grants the user a continuous command undead effect at a caster level 3 to all undead within range (30 ft.), with a DC 13 to negate for intelligent undead.

The bearer of this item must have maximum ranks in Perform (shuffle) for the special abilities to function. The bearer is considered to be anyone who touches it.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, command undead; Cost 3,500 gp.

The Ultimate Necromancer (which is slightly a lot sillier, despite this one being silly).

[================================]

I felt like I had more, but that's all I could find on such short notice. I hope they help (or at least amuse)! :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So...

... let's get makin'!

For fun!

* Disclaimer: I've already made these, I'm just putting them here for fun.

First, a(nother) disclaimer: these are (strongly) not likely to be exactly (i.e. "close to") what you're looking for, but they might be solid inspiration.

Necklace of Reincarnation:

Necklace of Reincarnation
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot neck; Price 53,000 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.

DESCRIPTION

This necklace is a bizarre, oily, and strongly scented fetish comprised of sharply scented copper coins, and a sack filled with weirdly pungent plant matter of various oils and spices that create a heavy, slick, striking odor. The bearer, naturally, has the same aroma.

Up to twice per week, it allows the bearer to use reincarnate on a corpse touched and prayed over for ten hours, and laying across the corpse (or ashes, or other tiny bits) of the person who is to be raised. If the prayer is interrupted, the effect is not wasted, but the process must begin again.

After ten hours, the corpse begins to re-grow from the matter collected from the previous one and the local environment, slowly, over the course of ten minutes. Though concentration is no longer required, if it is interrupted at any point during those ten minutes by any means (such as attacking the corpse, casting dispel on the slowly-reconstituting matter, and so on) the effect is wasted, and must be started over again.

Additionally, the target's new body seems exceptionally well-tanned (almost weirdly and unnaturally so) and smells like it was dipped in whatever it is that the necklace was, and retains that scent for one week, or until the negative levels or constitution drain is removed (whichever comes first).

Otherwise, this functions as the spell reincarnate... though some of these devices come with a few quirks...

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, reincarnate; Cost 26,500 gp.

Original.

[================================]

Amulet of Barely-There-Magic:

Amulet of Barely-There-Magic
Aura faint various; CL 1st
Slot neck; Price 15,180 gp; Weight -

STATISTICS

Alignment N (compatible with all alignments); Ego 1; Senses normal
INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10
Communication empathy
Special Purpose serve it's owner

The amulet's powers are not discernible by detect magic or identify. The special powers can be identified with analyze dweomer. The powers and the abilities of the base item can be learned normally. The amulet will use its stabilize ability on a wearer, if the bearer needs it.

DESCRIPTION

This (sort of) intelligent amulet (probably something like a holy symbol of a bunch'a' gods all smushed 'round the edges or somethin', I dun'no) can be used to entirely replace your cleric's orison special ability by 8th level, and probably a bit better (since you don't have to be seen casting enhanced diplomacy).

Constant: detect magic, detect poison, enhanced diplomacy, read magic
Command Word: create water (2/day), mending (1/day), purify food and drink (3/day), stabilize (3/day)

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, all the orisons used above; Cost 6,840 gp.

Original, Repost.

[================================]

Kerchief of the Shuffle Friend:

Kerchief of the Shuffle Friend
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 3rd
Slot neck; Price 7,000 gp; Weight -

DESCRIPTION

This garrish and dirty-looking rag wraps around the neck or hair, or sticks out of a pocket. When it's been worn for at least 24 hours, it grants the user a continuous command undead effect at a caster level 3 to all undead within range (30 ft.), with a DC 13 to negate for intelligent undead.

The bearer of this item must have maximum ranks in Perform (shuffle) for the special abilities to function. The bearer is considered to be anyone who touches it.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, command undead; Cost 3,500 gp.

The Ultimate Necromancer (which is slightly a lot sillier, despite this one being silly).

[================================]

I felt like I had more, but that's all I could find on such short notice. I hope they help (or at least amuse)! :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
C.Y., Mayor of Chillin'Town wrote:
I got married wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Does that make me Mayor of Chill.
Tacticslion wrote:
Maybe instead, "Married with Chil(l/dren)."
thegreenteagamer wrote:
No, that would be slacks and a blue button down collared shirt.

That's the main show. This is the spin-off series!

Though in truth, I knew so little about the show that I wouldn't have been able to say for sure whether or not that guy ever wore stuff like CY, if that's a thing in the show. I never watched it, and was only aware of it by way of the rather constant and obnoxious advertisements for it on tv.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
C.Y., Mayor of Chillin'Town wrote:
I got married wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Does that make me Mayor of Chill.

Maybe instead, "Married with Chil(l/dren)."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No problem. Happens to us all. :)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fergie wrote:
Envall wrote:
Now I am intrigued to figure out Lawful Good slavery.

It starts with a group of people who are unable or unwilling to abide by the rules of a Lawful Good society, or provide for their own needs. On the other hand, you have a group of wise people (or Gold Dragons, or Angles, or whatever) who are able to facilitate a LG life for the the first group. In a LG society, you don't have freedom to choose a non-LG way of life. I suspect it would be fairly close to people choosing (or being sentenced) to serving a god, but in this case it would be more like a representative of a god (like a King).

To put it in more modern terms, it would be similar to people joining religious groups, or military groups. You would give up some things we consider "Rights", but your worldly and otherworldly needs would be taken care of.

This is very similar to how it is run in our Kingmaker society. People who are unable or unwilling to take care of their own needs may sell themselves into slavery for a limited period of time. Slaves are explicitly people, however, and, in addition to normal rights as a citizen, all are periodically freed, causing a regular market shift (the closer to the Year of Freedom, the less valuable slaves are).

No one is permitted to sell slaves to other people. This is a severe offense and anyway, all such slaves are instantly free. Beyond that, there is a minimum percentage that all who live in-country are required to donate to organized (and officially recognized but non-government) charity organizations. These organizations are mandated to be limited to very basic assistance and required to limit the income from the charity itself that goes to its workers to place excess finances into emergency funds (also privately owned, but legally limited) - any job training is handled for free by the government, with free education up to third level in PC classes (retraining rules are awesome). Further training requires extra financial investment, but prices are artificially lowered. Between education (which can guarantee a minimum +6 Profression modifier, and thus an average of 16 check or 8 gold per week - more than enough for an average lifestyle, hence rarely leaving a reason to sell yourself into slavery.

Any slaves from behind the country are immediately free citizens when crossing into the country, and anyone who owns a slave is prohibited from traveling into another country with them.

There are possible abuses and loopholes, but generally, as a voluntary system of entry with promised payment at the end, it's more like a hireling service. It is possible to be freed or to recieved financial gifts, so it should be hypothetically unusual circumstances that lead to such a situation in the first place. And as the country's enforcement employs both powerful divination aid and high investigative skill, it's far more profitable (and easier) to do most other forms of illicit activity than illegal human trafficking.
(Depending on the severity of the illegal human trafficking, the price ranges from full compensation to reversal slavery to death penalty. Most people get better from death around here, but those given the actual penalty are given a "your old life is forfeit, welcome to reincarnation-and-reeducation into aquatic environments/as a merfolk" or "you're not coming back, and I'm ensuring it" as the death penalty is a last resort with multiple checks including witnesses, skills, summons, and divinations befor hand; OotS' lesson about over-reliance not withstanding.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Brf wrote:
So how well does your analysis fit in with the Monster Creation Rules?

You linked to the same thing he did in the first post. All of his statistics are derived from that vey thing.

Consider this a "dot" - I'm unlikely to weigh in on the conversation much (okay, well, at present, at least not likely to engage with the main topic), but I find the analysis very interesting. I'd tend to guess that the stability of both consistent high end damage rounds and increase of low end damage rounds is intentional, as is shows the monster growing more powerful against expected "normal" assaults (even "normal" assaults based on level) and hypothetically leads to appropriate-feeling encounters.

One of the interesting things about this chart is that it implies (by game effect) a similar PC-oriented chart. I've always wanted to see a chart like that. It would settle so very, very many rules-oriented "intent" arguments (though not always in a way that a given PC or GM would like). I suspect its is supposed to be replaced by the WBL chart, but that doesn't really do the same thing - WBL only really works if you hit expected norms. Of course having such a chart will probably be seen by some as "proof" that Paizo hates variety or something, and many will gladly boast about beating it or some who take it as a "minimum" or even some who overly-adhere to it beyond Paizo's intent as a vague guideline, but whatever: people do that about everything else, anyway. But it sure would be extremely handy.
(To some extent, the Unchained built-in-bonus progression gives more hints at this, but it still doesn't quite clarify as much as I'd like.)
((Paizo, if anyone of you reads this and like the idea, please use it. I need zero credit, compensation, or anything resembling such and nearby waive whatever right I have to such. I'm sure I'm not the first person to have ever thought of this. I shouldn't be the cause of people avoiding it.))


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Bah! Mistaken BBCode! Too late to Edit! *FLAGGED*

EDIT: Aaaaaaaand spelling mistake. Of course.


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NobodysHome wrote:

I find articles like this one utterly delightful.

I am such a philistine!

That... is... amazing...


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Tacticslion wrote:

Prayer beads work for arcane spells?

Cooperative caster? I'm not sure what that is. (Sorry.) Liiiiiiinky please? :D
Zhangar wrote:

I got the name completely wrong, which doesn't help.

Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat.

The +1 caster level would require both casters to have the raise spell being used.

The prayer bead of karma can activated by an arcane caster using UMD to fake being a divine caster. The +4 to caster level has no restrictions once activated.

As to caster level - keep in mind that most demigod-class entities cast spells at a level equal to their CR, with potentially really brutal results (like Nocticula or Pazuzu dropping mythic blasphemies at an effective CL of 40 against non-mythic opponents.) So a CR 30 demigod could reliably hit a CL of 35 with equipment and UMD.

I'd missed your request for clarification. Sorry about that.

Thanks! No problem about any of that stuff - I do the same (forget/lose track/etc.)!

Those are pretty awesome catches, however! Well done!

What about the CL 40?

Allied caster and a prayer bead could get you up to 25, and an orange prism ioun stone grants an extra +1 to CL up to 26th, sharesister gets another +1, but that's still missing an extra thirteen from the actual core explicit maximum CL.

Actually... do they all stack?

I'm going to go searching...

- sharesister is +1 insight
- Allied Spellcaster is a +1 untyped bonus (but the language is unclear if it's limited to only a single caster or not)
- Necklace of Prayer Beads is +4 untyped, and from a different source
- orange prism ioun stone is a +1 untyped bonus
- moon circlet (NEW ITEM) merely increases the level by (up to) two instead of granting a bonus
- death knell (NEW SPELL) improves CL effects by one and is not a bonus (though the onyx spear is, and is clearly based on that spell)

All told, that's +1+2+1+4+1+1 = +3+5+2 = +8+2 = +10.

Hmp. Still not quite enough... PCs will max out at at CL 30, which is impressive, but not quite the heights we're hypothetically looking for.

(Also, it requires at least one dead person.)

Certainly those demigods could do it, but I'd be surprised if that's really all that such things are for. Still, this was quite an enlightening search.

(Anything else looks like a spoiler, is overly-specific about what function or part of CL increases - which doesn't actually apply to the Core spells where it would matter -, or is for the wrong class.)

EDIT: Oops! One wrong typo and forgetting it's a typo/proceeding as if I'd done the right thing going three steps forward... oops! Fixed!


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Scythia wrote:
Does any hero ever die permanently in comics?

Yes. (It's rare, though.)


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thegreenteagamer wrote:
I can't sing, and I'm terrible at picking up musical instruments, but I sure know a lot about it!

There... there are jokes, here. So many. I just... I can't.

They all look so cruel and mean via text... :/


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That's never been scientifically proven. You can't make anything stick!

(But I explain on the internet, because there's a lot of room to misinterpret things via text, so I just over-explain on principle.)


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The Green Tea Gamer wrote:

Anyone else ever notice that Pachelbel was kind of the original one hit wonder? I mean, seriously, how many repeats of Canon in D is Pandora going to churn out for me? Did the man write anything else?

Some people put on dark metal when they're depressed. Not me. It's all about the symphony. Dark metal is for when I'm in a good mood.

...damnit I'm so bored.

Everything is Pachelbel...

EDIT: DAGGUMIT, LYNORA~! My internet slowed down, and you beat me! Well played, madame...

;D


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That's awesome! Way to go, TFY!

lynora: uh... sorry I've been slow to PM you! I've been super busy about now (school ending for my eldest and for my wife; end of the soccer season; we've been sick; I've been trying to run a game for my wife in the mean time - we've, uh, finished a prologue and one whole encounter -; and so on), and I'm suuuuuuuper flaky about online games anyway (it's why I put the scar of destiny on that character as a kind of self-joke). I'm sorry!


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Would it be badwrongfun to ask you a potentially spoilerific question about Iron Gods?
Icehawk wrote:
I have played it, so if Ashiel can't help, maybe I can?
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Did you try turning off the computer and turning it back on?

Did you try pushing the button for twenty-one seconds, and (after it's turned off), press the button again to turn it back on?

Did you try hitting "F2" repeatedly when you first turned it on, and select "Safe Mode" when you did so?

Did you hit the large, red button that said, "Do not press this button" or anything similar?

Did you try reading the manual?

Note: I've not played Iron Gods and am not talking about whatever might be behind that enticing-looking spoiler; instead I'm making a general joke about technology and "tech help" in general. :)


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Dracoknight wrote:
My "defense" in such discussions/arguments is that i have taken up the cape as a diplomat. My wording is tailored to my peers so that the communication can be established. When the communication is established and you are "speaking the same language" its only then you should attempt to correct flaws in their language. ( Another metaphor would be if you tried to correct a native-norwegian speaker in norwegian when you barely have heard the language ) And this is how i avoid these kind of conflicts, and most conflicts useally is due to the disruption of communication.

Can't believe I'm adding here, again. I intended not to.

This is actually something really important.

In a thread that I made some time back, I mentioned some of the problems with certain terminology - not because the words are bad, but because the words come with emotional connotations to certain people that they lack with others, and some of those (either positive or negative or neutral) create miscommunication without actually diverging on the literal meaning of those words.

- "Optimization"
- "Min/Max"
- "Cheese"

... and so on, are all examples of the same kind of thing.

It's not a case that these terms are bad. As Jiggy eloquently wrote on the first page, there are valid, strong uses of these terms and they can actually assist in communication.

But for certain people, it can confuse the issue. The problem isn't the terms, nor is the problem the people, but the problem is how some people interact with the term. In this case, it's important to think about how people will respond to its use.

The OP of this one utilized inflammatory terms and a confrontational style while actually trying to be conversational. These terms and that style will naturally rile people up and quickly overshadow the actual discussion, regardless of the point. This is exactly how many things get derailed - a comment with a given (apparent) "tone" creates an emotion in others.

(NOTE: by "you" I mean "anyone at all, even and especially me." Like, I'm literally talking to myself with this post.)
Understanding how your words and conveyed emotions impact others is a basic part of communication. You can't always guess accurately... but you must at least try, and also acknowledge any failure on your part. If you don't understand how you've offended, ask. And, if they reply, look at the response and try to understand it from their perspective. Sometimes people will be rude. Sometimes they'll just stop talking to you (maybe because they've got an extension that hides you, or they're just snubbing you). Sometimes people will be willing to engage with you. It's the latter you should focus on. You don't need to agree, but you should be willing to listen. And if you don't want to get into arguments, you should be willing to figure out how to word things differently with the help of these latter folks.


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NobodysHome wrote:

So a certain person linked me back into this thread, and obviously my original post was very unclear.

If there's a cool backstory explaining it, I have no issue with it.

My issue is players who tell me, "It's in the rules, so you have to allow it, and I don't have to justify it in any way, shape, or form. Your desire for a consistent world view is limiting my freedom! You're a terrible GM!"

All I'm going to say about NH's games is that he is not as restrictive as some of his posts may indicate.

Anyone who's read this thread (in addition to having a great time) can attest that he allows quite a... variety... of... "characters" (both players and the ones on the paper)... into his games.

(I mean, he generally kind of half-expects a certain amount of optimization in his own games.)

So... I think this is a case of miscommunication with a little of "different styles" and different understandings of the same words thrown in.

That said, I will mention that I don't think the words themselves are necessarily problematic... but I think they can be for certain people. Anyone who's writing or talking needs to think about the potential impact of what they say on others - it's not possible to do so infinitely, but it's an important part of communication to do that.


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And of course I notice a few issues almost immediately, thus morning. Typical. Welp! Work on later, today is busy!


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thegreenteagamer wrote:
I got back on the PbP horse. My Fallout games are back in action. :-D

Awesome!

... and now...

Bloodlines of Pravoka (Complete, but potentially subject to change)

Tacticslion wrote:

Human

For the human Kuga or Bangsawan, you have Scribing and Shadow.
For the human Samurai or Satrias, you have Handling and Sentinel.
For the human Shokunin or Tukang, you have Detection and Making.
For the human Shonin or Wesias, you have Finding and Passage.
For the human Brahmanas or Saishi, you have Storm and Warding.
For the human Sabanto or Sudras, you have Healing and Hospitality.

Half-Dwarf
For the half-dwarf Kamuk, you have Lore and Stone. These Houses are Mong and Hano.
For the half-dwarf Ikor, you have Blood and Mission. These Houses are Hano and Lsou.
For the half-dwarf Gamil, you have Memory and Writing. These Houses are Mong and Suem.
For the half-dwarf Ulter, you have Labor and Strength. These Houses are Suem and Lsou.

The houses of Detection, Finding, Handling, Healing, Hospitality, Making, Passage, Scribing, Sentinel, Shadow, Storm, and Warding have all been taken care of.

And now, for the remaining houses: Blood, Labor, Lore, Memory, Mission, Stone, Strength, Writing.

Bloodlines of Provoka:
Blood: half-dwarf; Heal; blood money (3rd), boiling blood (5th) {this is modified to work for dwarf subtype}, blood biography (7th), blood of the martyr (9th), caustic blood (11th), bloodsworn retribution (13th), regenerate (15th), blood mist (17th), transmute blood to acid (19th)

Labor: half-dwarf; Profession (all); ant haul (3rd), bear's endurance (5th), monstrous physique I (7th), simulacrum, lesser (9th), lighten object, mass (11th), summon laborers (13th), legendary proportions (15th), iron body (17th), wooden phalanx (19th)

Lore: half-dwarf; Knowledge (history); know the enemy (3rd), commune with birds OR investigative mind (5th), speak with dead (7th), speak with haunt (9th), ancestral memory (11th), legend lore (13th), vision (15th), true prognostication (17th), astral projection (19th)

Memory: half-dwarf; Perform; memory lapse (3rd), mindshock (5th), mindlocked messenger (7th), modify memory (9th), mind probe (11th), ancestral memory (13th), memory of function (15th), word of recall (17th), akashik form (19th)

Mission: half-dwarf; Escape Artist; keep watch (3rd), heroism (5th), ghost wolf (7th), geas, lesser (9th), freedom of movement (11th), geas/quest (13th), bestow grace of the champion (15th), nine lives (17th), shapechange (19th)

Stone: half-dwarf; Knowledge (engineering); expeditious construction (3rd), soften earth and stone (5th), stoneskin (7th), stone shape (9th), wall of stone (11th), stone tell (13th), repel metal or stone (15th), create greater undead (17th), elemental swarm {earth-spell only} (19th)

Strength: half-dwarf; Swim; burst of adrenaline (3rd), sky swim (5th), siphon might (7th), deadly juggernaut (9th), mighty strength (11th), eagle soul (13th), symbol of weakness (15th), divine vessel (17th), crushing hand (19th)

Writing: half-dwarf; Knowledge (religion); memorize page (3rd), book ward (5th), explosive runes (7th), voluminous vocabulary (9th), contingent scroll (11th), runic overload (13th), symbol of scrying (15th), trap the soul (17th), symbol of vulnerability (19th)

==============================

One of the things that I'm grappling with is the kind of "meh"-ness of some of these lists. I worked hard to keep direct-damage spells off of the lists, but I also wanted to choose things that weren't normally part of the Sorcerer list as much as possible to keep things interesting (and doing both of those to any extent while finding non-overlapping strength bonuses - or at least finding a spell that did something else and thus was still useful once you had the overlapping strength bonus types - was kind of tough!), but I also wanted it to be sensible. Some of the choices are a stretch, but... come on. Just look at the original list of spells; even the Pathfinder fan-made revamp has some unusual choices in it.

At least one unusual choice was entirely intentional, however, and I was unfortunately forced to leave a few similarly-themed unusual choices behind...

That said, I also worked to avoid overlap of skills and spells, where I could. For the skills... at least one of them (Profession) is a normal class skill, but so is the Making mark's skill, so I dunno why that was chosen - I figure it must be for some valid reason. Still, I avoided that where possible.

Please give me feedback. It's quite possible I've overlapped a spell, a skill, or something else that I didn't notice. I need help to make these things as good as I can!

Thanks!


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Triple post, 'cause I ain't care 'bout no normal human decency!

Im so sorry, everyone in my family and all of my friends and all who read this post. I really do casaaaaarrrrreeee~!

So: The Returned. Definitely not what I thought it was, but a really solid show, at least as of three episodes in. The "mystery" of the shake show seems to be that, somehow or another, a number of seemingly-random people are back from the dead in a small French border town (that is, a town in rural mountainous France). I, uh, I didn't get that it was set in France until I read the opening of Wikipedia. Certainly does explain all the retrenches references to French things and places in France! (And the French-sounding names.)

Anyway, the series so far has been tripping gripping, emotional, and fascinating. In some ways, it reminds of the early parts of Lost (no spoilers, I've not finished that series), though I understand this one only goes two seasons long as its creators "learned from the mistakes of Lost" (paraphrased) and so didn't want to stretch the mystery out tooooooooooooo long.

It's... not happy, and some of the people are either abhorrent or pathetic or both or something else (I'm not sure, but it's not "right"), and all of them have dark parts of themselves. None of the titular returned are saints, nor are they strictly "bad" people, so far (though some might be). There's a weird kid who may be at the center of everything, or not, and everyone should really just talk about stuff more than they do. It's interesting and gets a tentative, "You might want to check this out, but just be aware that it might not be the sunshine and rainbows of the dead being resurrects; but it's also not a strict horror/zombie/etc. film, either, and a couple of horror elements are present, but may well have natural instead of suernatural explanations."

Quasi-edit: DANG IT, AUTOCORRECT, IS NOTHING SACRED


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Tacticslion wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Dang it, show, stop making me care! You're like a Soap Opera, only with lasting consequences that no one actually forgets about!

** spoiler omitted **

Scooby Doo: Mystery Incorporated!

I realized that the quote was my last post. Short version: it was great!

It really stuck the landing. The ending was hokey as all get-out in many regards, but that felt more like homage than mistake, and said hokey-ness actually works shockingly well in the way this series interacts with all prior iterations.

The jokes were good, the drama was strong, and the characters and story were engaging.

In the end, this was a series well worth the watching, and I strongly recommend it.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Parks and Rec is a pretty amazing show, as of the first two episodes~!

Season One was great! 'Dat ending!

Season two starts off surprisingly like season one, in its own way, with a few shocking openers! I am definitely hooked!


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Nah. Unlike you, I don't lack... determination.


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Bloodlines of Pravoka

Tacticslion wrote:

Human

For the human Kuga or Bangsawan, you have Scribing and Shadow.
For the human Samurai or Satrias, you have Handling and Sentinel.
For the human Shokunin or Tukang, you have Detection and Making.
For the human Shonin or Wesias, you have Finding and Passage.
For the human Brahmanas or Saishi, you have Storm and Warding.
For the human Sabanto or Sudras, you have Healing and Hospitality.

Half-Dwarf
For the half-dwarf Kamuk, you have Lore and Stone. These Houses are Mong and Hano.
For the half-dwarf Ikor, you have Blood and Mission. These Houses are Hano and Lsou.
For the half-dwarf Gamil, you have Memory and Writing. These Houses are Mong and Suem.
For the half-dwarf Ulter, you have Labor and Strength. These Houses are Suem and Lsou.

The houses of Detection, Finding, Handling, Healing, Hospitality, Making, Passage, Scribing, Sentinel, Shadow, Storm, and Warding have all been taken care of.

And now, for the remaining houses: Blood, Labor, Lore, Memory, Mission, Stone, Strength, Writing.

Blarg.

I've run out of time after the first three! Boo!

Oh-well, posting what I've done so far, and leaving the rest for later.

Finished:

Blood: half-dwarf; Heal; blood money (3rd), boiling blood (5th) {this is modified to work for dwarf subtype}, blood biography (7th), blood of the martyr (9th), caustic blood (11th), bloodsworn retribution (13th), regenerate (15th), blood mist (17th), transmute blood to acid (19th)

Labor: half-dwarf; Profession (all); ant haul (3rd), bear's endurance (5th), monstrous physique I (7th), simulacrum, lesser (9th), lighten object, mass (11th), summon laborers (13th), legendary proportions (15th), iron body (17th), wooden phalanx (19th)

Lore: half-dwarf; Knowledge (history); heightened awareness (3rd), commune with birds OR investigative mind (5th), speak with dead (7th), speak with haunt (9th), ancestral memory (11th), legend lore (13th), vision (15th), true prognostication (17th), astral projection (19th)

... aaaaaaaaaaaaaand...

Work in Progress:

Memory: half-dwarf; Knowledge (???); memorize page (3rd), hidden knowledge OR share memory (5th), mindlocked messenger (7th), ??? (9th), ??? (11th), ??? (13th), memory of function (15th), ??? (17th), ??? (19th),

Mission: half-dwarf; ???; ??? (3rd), ??? (5th), [/i] (7th), [i] (9th), [/i] (11th), [i] (13th), ??? (15th), ??? (17th), ??? (19th),

Stone: half-dwarf; ???; [/i] (3rd), [i]??? (5th), ??? (7th), stone shape (9th), wall of stone (11th), ??? (13th), ??? (15th), ??? (17th), ??? (19th),

Strength: half-dwarf; ???; ??? (3rd), ??? (5th), ??? (7th), ??? (9th), ??? (11th), ??? (13th), ??? (15th), ??? (17th), ??? (19th),

Writing: half-dwarf; ???; [/i] (3rd), [i]book ward (5th), explosive runes (7th), voluminous vocabulary (9th), contingent scroll (11th), runic overload (13th), [/i] (15th), [i] (17th), [i][/i] (19th),

I've not decided so strongly that I'll refuse to change things. It's just what I've gotten done so far.


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Hey: FF6 is the (second) best Final Fantasy!


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Life Sized Tacticslion Prop wrote:

[Insert ten thousand word kind rebuttal here]

[Initiating smile and wave protocol]

Don't ninja me like that, me!

... wwwaaaaaaaiiiiiiiit...


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I think he means the penalty will only be dropped in special circumstances.

So the Flurry or haste effect will "bonus attack plus any other you make" and if you make lots of other, you'll suffer the penalty on the other, but not the "extra" attack you're granted.

The reason this (might*) work is that the bonus attack always has some sort of opportunity cost that you could use to get some other benefit of (presumably roughly) equal value.

* It might not actually work out. It's unclear because it's unpublished. Balancing would have to take place around the concept.

EDIT: To clarify.


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I've got to say. The original Metropolis film is a combination of awesome and really, really trippy. Exaggerated acting due to silent actors + big drama + serious story + archaic graphics special effects + extremely high-concept + extremely retro-future-sci fi... and yet it all "works" somehow.


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Perspective:
dragonhunterq wrote:
IHIYC you need some perspective.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
What do I need to do to get it?

Listening to criticism.

And by "listening" I mean more than just "hearing" - I mean taking what is written here and thinking about how it could be applied to your life - if not outside these forums, than at least within them.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
How would I know if I had it?

By paying attention to, and understanding the over-all responses that you get from people you respect or trust on these forums within the context of the forums.

That is to say, I'm not recommending that you take words said on these forums and change your life beyond them, as I don't know your life beyond them, but changing the way you interact with those in these forums is, in fact, important.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
I can't just decide that decades of consistent life lessons (including formal education and the observations of friends, family, and teachers) have all been wrong based on one little forum thread, but evidently, I don't know what's reasonable (and neither do my family, friends, and teachers, apparently), so I'll take your word for it, since it's plainly superior to mine - but you need to tell me what to do.

You should not do any of these things lightly, but all may be worth doing either entirely or within limited confines.

- consistent life lessons are undercut by confirmation bias
- - formal education is excellent, but can contain errors; or can be misunderstood and thus misapplied... in which case there is nothing wrong with the lesson in principle, but the way it is taken in practice (at least the specific practice of the one person) is incorrect
- - observations of friends, family, and teachers are great; but prone to be (potentially) overly-positive, creating a feedback that generates unintended arrogance

- wisdom found in a thread may be empty or it may be solid
- - taking advice from someone on a thread may well be a good idea, or it may be a poor one
- - inherently presupposing (or declaring) anyone is superior is potentially dangerous (though sometimes accurate), as it places over emphasis on one thing instead of the other

I am not declaring these things wrong and needing to be rejected; rather, I am pointing to potential errors either within them (in which case specific, small parts of the thing is wrong, but not the whole), or in how these things are taken (in which case it is not the thing that is wrong, but the one who is interacting with it).

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
If what I think is true actually isn't, what more would I need to do to either verify it properly or find the truth that I've been so blind to for so long?

It depends entirely on what the apparent-truth is.

Various means exist to allow the truth to prosper. Some work better for some elements, while others work better for other elements.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
How many times must I test my own assertions before I no longer need to prove anything any further?

One of the interesting things about testing your assertions isn't that you need to be the only one testing them. Many others do as well.

In this case, the greatest problem with your assertions, and what is being claimed by "you need perspective" is the arrogant-seeming nature of your word choice and the ways by which you compare and contrast yourself with others.

This is very important because, on a base level, by stating or implying, "I am objectively superior." (which, intentionally or otherwise, you have*), you immediately shut down potential listeners. In this case, it's not really the majority of the listeners that are the problem, but the way the message is expressed - at least, if the message is supposed to be something that others are actually supposed to receive and interact with**.

That is not to say that simply expressing a message in a certain way automatically goes along with "I don't want anyone to listen." nor is a reaction to something objective proof that said thing is accurate according to the reaction, but rather that in this instance, the speaker and listener are not communicating, and it is necessary that the speaker and listener work to get back into communication with each other by altering the method by which they interact, or accept that they are not communicating.

(The fact that two people can also communicate, but disagree, leads to some amount of confusion as well.)

* Let me (hopefully) clarify, here. You cannot possibly have long life-lessons from friends or family that tell you whether or not you've appeared arrogant within this thread. You can have life-lessons about what does and does not appear arrogant, and how to interact with people, but that doesn't necessarily tell you in any given instance that you are correct. Given that you have a vacuum of information, you should use more local cues to inform you - in this case, other people saying it really looks like something is the case.

** The full burden of communication does not rely on either listener nor speaker. Communication is fundamentally a two-way act. It requires both people to do their best in order to be honest, otherwise, you're left with people who's intents are deceptive; again, this may not be on-purpose, but it is part of the nature of communication.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
How often do other people question their innermost convictions and rigorously challenge their self-perception, and to what degree of personal expense? What's the standard for that?

I don't know. I do it sometimes, but not others, and in response to a whole host of things.

Some things I accept that I am or have been wrong, some things I accept that I don't have an answer but I hold them anyway (cognitive dissonance), and some things I accept that I am or have been right.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Apparently, I pamper and indulge myself and don't do enough to consider the points of view of others. Tell me what the standard expectations and practices are for "getting perspective," and then we can compare it with what I've done to that end to see just how much more perspective I need. Fair?

The problem, here, is that the standard practices cannot be standard, because people are not standard. There are many ways in which people are similar, but many more in which they are not.

Individuals are individual. And some individuals may easily work out in similar manners, while others definitively do not.

The mark of having perspective is not something easily told.

In the case of this thread in specific, however, avoiding (and sincerely apologizing for) specific word-choices, and accepting that certain attitudes expressed as unpalatable to others is the gist of what most people, here, are looking for.

It's not just that you've used words, it's that when people say (paraphrased), "Wow, that looks really arrogant." your response is (paraphrased), "It doesn't matter, you're wrong, I'm right." which is really arrogant (or at least seems to be).

And if you're not trying to say, "It doesn't matter, you're wrong, I'm right." than you're doing a poor job of communicating that as it provides no additional proof to the contrary; the "you're wrong" bit doesn't show any element that can be used to change perspective in a rational way, and seems dismissive enough to actually be the very arrogance people are trying to warn against.

Arrogance probably has a place and a use, if limited. Engaging with people in a manner that doesn't offend isn't one of them.

All that rambling aside, can we agree that the original purpose of the thread has been fulfilled? :)

EDIT:

Ninja Syrus Terrigan:
Syrus Terrigan wrote:

I think I may have to build an alias for these boards -- my turn unthread check yesterday failed. If I were to show up as a gestalt liberator/cleric and tried again, would it work?? I get that Syrus Terrigan doesn't get solid results in doing so (having never taken the feats, and such), but that's just because he's usually too busy re-deadifying them . . . .

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Tell me what the standard expectations and practices are for "getting perspective," and then we can compare it with what I've done to that end to see just how much more perspective I need. Fair?

Gents and ladies, I fully believe in IHIYC's sincerity and conviction regarding the assertions he has made (ad nauseam) in this thread. I understand the positions that most of you have taken which have led to this . . . abomination of discourse, seeing that so many are so overwrought (Excellent vocabulary contribution! Can't remember who used it first, as it's on another page) about it. But the quote above should clearly be seen as a cesspool -- no one who goes in any further has any chance of coming out clean.

Just don't do it.

"Objective" evaluation of existential/experiential statements is a vain effort -- cannot be done.

Stop it.

Oh, come one! It was a five-minute ninja! I can't help it that I started typing before you and finished after you! Bwaa~!

:)

EDIT 2: to fix spoiler tag!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Meh.

Here's one.

"Enjoy," or something, I guess, NH?

Jiggy mostly ended the need for future discussion on page one, with N. Jolly, Avoron, hasteroth, and Zhangar also bring up some really solid points on the first page, as did our own TGTG did, as well.

There is a sincere and severe miscommunication going on, and part of it is the rhetoric being used in the thread - the casual arrogance of the language plus the presumption that the entirety of the burden to understand is on a listener. I've avoided the thread, because I don't want to be dragged into it, but I'll say this.

I'd skip to Chess Pwn's post on page two for an interesting post about the analysis of the importance of a "speaker" (typist) and "listener" (reader) and their respective jobs.

It was a pretty good reminder to me. I desperately want to explain myself well, and there are several times I've wondered, "Why aren't people listening to me?!" but, hopefully, I'll use that to remind myself that there might be a different way I can phrase things.

I do think that sometimes the listener refuses to listen, and thus places their own spin on something - not necessarily consciously - but, in so-doing, refusing to engage a speaker on their own terms; in that case, the speaker can't actually do much. Barring that, though, it is the speaker's job to re-communicate or accept the same results.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tacticslion wrote:
The idea that Thor and Spawn are "magical children" is absolutely stinkin' amazing, by the way... so awesome!
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I think it has been established that 'vigilante hulk' doesn't live up to its name... if you're now telling me that 'vigilante thor' is the way to stat up the Odinson... [mumbles under his breath and walks away, kicking a rock...]

I'm not telling anyone the "best way" for statting up anyone.

I'm just mentioning the fact that someone's idea is amazing and awesome to think about. That's all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, I have that. A battle with sanity, that is.

This is kind of mind-numbing. The weirdness, I mean. The feats don't really seem similar, when they're supposed to and complications - really little-yet-significant ones - seem to proliferate the more I try and find a coherent pattern. Blarg.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Newest thread.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Small but will grow makes me think of age categories thus Dragon
I've thought that a few times over the years as well, after all TOotS started in Dragon Magazine, but aren't there a few key points that argue for it not being a dragon?

- surprise that it speaks

- the fact that several wizards didn't know what it was

- don't have the high strength scores necessary for one scene

- reactions don't really match visuals of one scene


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

...

...

...

Let's try something different.

Quote boxes for separation of points, not because anything actually said this anywhere.

DR 5/magic wrote:


Q: If I have a +1 morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: Yes.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "magic" applies equally to the entire weapon.

Easy.

DR 5/good wrote:


Q: If I have a +1 holy morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: Yes.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "holy" applies equally to the entire weapon.

Alright, next.

DR 5/cold iron wrote:


Q: If I have a cold iron morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: Yes.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "cold iron" applies equally to the entire weapon.

Simple... but now, "trickier"...

DR 5/bludgeoning wrote:

Q: If I have a +1 morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: Yes.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "bludgeoning" applies equally to the entire weapon.

Alright? Similarly:

DR 5/piercing wrote:

Q: If I have a +1 morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: Yes.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "piercing" applies equally to the entire weapon.

And, of course, the obvious.

DR 5/slashing. wrote:

Q: If I have a +1 morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: No.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "slashing" applies equally to the entire weapon (and since it doesn't apply to any part, it's ignored).

Aaaaaaaaaaand bonus one...

DR 5/bludgeoning and magic. wrote:

Q: If I have a cold iron morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: No.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "magic" would apply equally to the entire weapon (and since it doesn't apply to any part, it's ignored).

... and two.

DR 5/bludgeoning and magic. wrote:

Q: If I have a +1 morningstar, does it overcome this DR?
A: Yes.
Q2: Why?
A2: Because the "magic" and "bludgeoning" both apply equally to the entire weapon.

In this context, the damage type dealt by the weapon when checking against damage reduction is consistent.

With this in mind, we have a clear precedent for most all purposes - if any one part counts as "X" for purpose of rule, treat the whole thing as "X" unless otherwise specified.

Alchemical silver.

Quote:
On a successful attack with a silvered slashing or piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the damage roll (with a minimum of 1 point of damage). The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items, and it doesn't work on rare metals such as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral.

Notice that the rules only talk about how to interact with two kinds of weapons: slashing and piercing.

Thus, the rules check once: "does the weapon deal piercing?"

As the morningstar does, in fact, deal piercing, it suffers a grand total of -1 on the damage roll.

What part of that damage is bludgeoning, and what part is piercing? It's entirely irrelevant.

Just like it doesn't matter what part of the +1 weapon is the magic damage (for the record, it's the '+1' part), it doesn't matter what part of the weapon is bludgeoning or piercing. In the rules, the piercing part takes the penalty.

Now, the question may be asked... why does it work this way?

It's a fair question.

Some people lie down on beds of nails, but how? Logically, I know that a nail hurts and pierces me. Why would a bunch of them not pierce me everywhere?

In this specific case, it's a question of the distributive property of energy. It's the same reason a ceiling is held in place by pillars. There are so many points of contact that the piercing pressure is mitigated across them.

While, obviously, slamming something with a mace would still hurt (and it does), it doesn't hurt as much because the (ever-so-slightly dulled) points of a piercing help (weirdly) cushion the entire effect. Instead of having a single, heavy impact point (bludgeoning), and instead of having sharp points (piercing) it has multiple dull points.

Does this work perfectly?

Well... no, at least I don't think so - at least, not perfectly. If it worked like that, it seems like the mace would have been in trouble in the first place (given the b/p dichotomy). But, um, it kind of can work as an explanation.

Otherwise, the rules apply pretty cleanly and consistently across the board.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Sure go for it.

Okay!

BAM:

An idea!:
Reading up on the culture ever-so-briefly, it looks like there might be a fundamentally important place for the Moonlit Covenant within Sylvantha that could help resolve this very thing... a place that even the Divine Order would have to respect, and that the vampire houses likely leverage for themselves.

That place? Bride-Finding (yes, I've read it, and yes, it's exactly the kind of book it looks like; I inherited it from my sister, and, despite the cheesiness, which was plentiful, it was pretty good, as I recall; I was a dumb teen, though, so... maybe a spoonful of salt, there).

Point is, there are several "creepy" spells that could be quite flavorful for the Moonlit Covenant that would be perfect for this.

Stuff like...
- blood biography (really should be a witch's spell, not sure why it's not)
- cultural adaptation (again, this should be a witch spell... either way, really useful in this insular culture...)
- detect anxieties
- detect desires
- diagnose disease
- discern next of kin (I'd recommend a 'better' variant, though; what a weirdly obscurely specific spell :I)
- seek thoughts
- and, of course, [i]matchmaker
(chaperon for the duration, let them alone after the initial interest has faded).

This sort of thing could be seen as extremely important in such an insular culture - after all, if you don't know who to trust from those "foreign" towns, you need someone trustworthy to go places, find a bride, and bring her/him back. The Vampire Houses successfully recruiting the Bride Finders would be something of a coup, and one reason that the Moonlit Order does so well for itself. The necessity of the Bride Finders would be pretty solidly mean they're left unmolested and their unusual insistence on being separate from the Divine Order could very well give them the leverage.

The vampires, of course, are interested in this very thing as well - if for no other reason than they're blood-reliant, and want a nice, healthy stock. (I don't know - maybe they're not evil in your setting; I've not done enough research. Not sure.)

But why would the Bride Finders be associated with the vampires at all? Because, of course, they came from them. The origin of the Bride Finders' bloodline-based spells would certainly make for a very solid tie back to the very creatures who require blood (and healthy, er, "livestock" to persist), and, dependent upon the age of the vampiric presence within the region, could well date far enough back to have ingrained itself into the culture well before the fall of the kingdom that shattered the lands into small city-states in the first place. Maybe even predating that.

This would explain why they've resisted the Divine Order's attempts at recruitment so deeply and so thoroughly (much to said DO's chagrin)... because they'd be destroyed by the very order trying to recruit them, due to their vampiric ties or origin. To the people at large, they just seem like an eclectic, independent group that provides a necessary service.
(Also, they could be midwives or other elements that are important to low-grade functioning of the communities. Pre-fall, they'd have been broadly accepted, but not considered vital. Now they're considered vital. As a reminder, with all the farmers would be relatively aware of the problems with inbreeding stock...)

But as I understand it, it seems, here, like these hypothetical Bride Finders are, then, just an arm of the vampiric houses, and a powerful force that is neither Divine Order, nor "hidden" Moonlit Covenant. Except they're not. The Bride Finders would function more like a decentralized religious group, like Independent Baptists or Pentecostal churches. That's not to say that there isn't some sort of (set of) regulatory body(/ies), exactly - a bound group (or groups) of a devotional Inquisitors (or something similar) set up by the Bride Finders themselves and the Moonlit Covenant could exist. This body or bodies could represent the hidden "university"-like sects of the Bride Finders, whose adherence to the Bride Finder coda/tenets/core/fundaments/whatever would provide financial incentives to these fanatic-production groups. Part of that fanaticism is focusing on non-subservience, even toward the authorities that they hypothetically descend from, and are supported in that independence by said authorities - they make an excellent service and important distinctions between themselves and their servants to permit them to avoid the wrath of the Divine Order (though some houses may well wish that they could control the Bride Finders entirely; I dunno). Further, they have no political or social agenda beyond what they do.

Over-all, you create a heavily decentralized but highly consistent sect of fiercely independent fanatics who focus on overcoming the problems with the insular communities in which they find themselves as part of, as well as keeping the relative balance, and keen understanding both social and biological dynamics. Wrapped in mystery, they're weird and other, yet disarmingly local, no matter where they go. They are (despite the preferences thereof) effectively supported by the two major "opposed" organizations and the common people, because they are extremely important, and functionally non-political.

... or you could come up with something else that's just as cool or more so. Feel free!

Otherwise, awesome! Glad my ramblings worked within the flavor of the setting!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
HyperMissingno wrote:
Have you not seen a commercial for head-on?

Ah. That explains it. A reference that I don't have.

(I have not seen such a commercial. As I don't watch tv, I miss many such things. Sorry!)

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