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FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 1,165 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 10 Pathfinder Society characters.


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So... just to kick in another way of doing it...

The Slayer Class from the APG. Gets rogue talents and ranger combat styles all in one nice full BAB d10 HD decent skill set sneak attackable package. 6 of that and then full HW to 10...

Fairly Solid.

I would go with Lore Warden 7/Skulking slayer 13 if I went to 20, for the higher Rogue Talents.

Notably Confounding Blades (UC) Hunters Surprise and Entanglement of Blades(APG), Imp Evasion (CRB)

Or, Imp Surprise Follow Thru (ARG)

I'd also throw in Great Cleave, and perhaps Serpent Lash/Imp Serpent Lash if you chose to focus more on whips.

Final Build is either Lore Warden 5 Skulking slayer 7 or Lore warden 7 Skulking slayer 5. Skulking slayer adds to dirty trick and steal, so your CMB for that comes out the same.

Lore warden gets you bonus to CMB for anything, free expertise, and access to Gloves of Dueling. If you take the Heavy flails group, you have a 2 handed trip weapon and whip weapon group.

The half orc racial gets you whip prof instead of falchions.

Started with Str 17 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 8. 20 pt buy.

You want Elven Chain as soon as you can afford it since it counts as light for proficiency as well.

Feats I have at level 10: Power Attack, Cleave, Surprise follow thru (with rogue talent) Expertise(free lore warden), Imp/Gr trip, Imp/Gr Dirty trick, Combat reflexes(talent combat trick), Cleaving Finish.

I pretty much alternated fighter/rogue levels, starting with fighter since PFS maxes the first HD. You can decide which maneuvers you want to focus on first.

I don't remember the names, just that I saw them in statblocks, which is why I bought one for my dwarf.

One of them has a bashing shield as an available item on the chronicle sheet, the other one doesn't.

+1 equivalent Dueling Weapon (from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, not the UE flat gold cost one) adds double the weapons enhancement to maneuvers with said weapon. So, for 8k (+1 Dueling) you get +3 total for maneuvers with the weapon.

Dusty Rose Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder is +1 AC (insight) and +2 CMB(all). (5500g total)

Gloves of Specific Maneuvers +2(4k)

If you happen to have weapon training feature, Gloves of Dueling will add to maneuvers with the weapon group you picked (Heavy flails is a good one)

Dan Bong gives +2 to grapples, since it is a weapon that gives bonuses to grapple any enhancement on it should apply as well in this specific case.

Mask, Armbands for grapples as well. An Impact weapon gives bonus to Bullrushes even when not using the weapon.

Shield Slam feat lets you use your attack roll for your Bullrush check, which could be higher depending on your build.

My main focuses on trip and Dirty trick (being a H-orc Skulking slayer and flanking a lot of the time) so these are all the ones I picked up so far.

I'll see if I can dig them up... I run a lot of them for the local group but I don't actually have the scenarios myself, I'm usually the overflow extra GM.

The biased part was the remainder of the post. The question, if asked alone, would have been fine.

In print, Scarred Wanderer, and two in PFS scenarios that I have played.

EDIT: Misread the allowed resources... carry on

The FAQ is referencing a question that equates to "Does a Belt of Giant Strength stack with my Bulls Strength spell?"

Which was rightfully answered no, the item uses the same spell in its creation, so it wouldn't stack with itself.

The question you are posing is "If I buy a larger heavier weapon than normal, and magically enhance it to hit with greater force than it normally would, does it only add 5lbs instead of 10?"

Or, "If I have naturally larger than average physical claws, and then receive the effects of a spell that increases my claws to supernatural size, since they were naturally larger than normal before the magic does it only add an inch instead of two?"

They aren't in the same game, let alone the same ballpark. Try asking the question without the slanted argument in the same post.

I really hate how people ask for a biased FAQ.

The ruling is consistent.

Impact and Lead Blades don't stack, due to multiple MAGICAL effects not stacking.

Shield Spikes and Bashing are not the same case.

Neither are Imp Natural Attack and Strong Jaw.

The first doesn't work, the other two should. One Physical change, and one magical.

Would you say that Enlarge and Lead Blades will stack?

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I think this sums up pretty much all of the questions so far?


The Splintercloud Arrow from Elves of Golarion as written is unclear as to its use.

Please clarify:

Does the 5ft burst area mean a 2x2 Grid around an intersection, a 3x3 area around a central square, or is it a single 5ft square?

Does it need to hit normal AC and then grant the target a save to avoid damage?

Does it just target AC 5 for the square/intersection like other non-magical Area weapons (i.e. splash weapons)?

Do they benefit from things like Weapon Enhancements, spells that enhance ammunition, and feats and abilities that would add damage to a arrow from a bow like Deadly Aim or Weapon Specialization effect the damage?

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Enlarge Person should stack, to a total of 3d6.

It changes the base size of the weapon, so a large spiked shield does 1d8, and bashing would make it 3d6.

The FAQ is about multiple magic effects that do the same thing not stacking, which is spelled out in about half a dozen other places in the rules.

Impact Weapon enchant uses the Lead blades spell.

The Spiked Shield is a Physical change in the actual item, changing the damage die and the damage type.

Then you add the Bashing enchant, which is a single magical effect that alters the damage of the physical weapon.

A spiked shield is a distinct and separate item from a regular shield. The "damage as one size higher" is to prevent having multiple entries for each type of shield and size of shield, to help reduce word count.

The FAQ and the stacking clause on magical effects have no bearing on the Bashing Spiked Shield, since there is only one -magical effect- in play on the item.

The Scarred Wanderer, and a couple of the published PFS scenarios list a spiked heavy bashing shield as 2d6 damage.

Now, if you wanted the bashing shield enchant as armor, and tried to add Impact as a weapon enchant under the separately as a weapon, they wouldn't stack, and the Lead Blades spell wouldn't stack with bashing either, since that's another magic effect.

AC 5... wow. I never looked at it, and AC 10 is what almost every GM in this area runs.

Like I said, from the text given, if that is all of it, it's a poorly written entry. It talks about being fired, but makes no mention of targeting normal AC, or targeting a square/intersection. Also, the enemy gets a reflex save to avoid damage, which doesn't make any sense if you had to roll to hit normal AC.

Also, absent any other language, it still counts as an arrow for the benefits/penalties of feats/abilities that affect weapon damage.

Now that I've described how I read what is actually RAW, this is what I would do at my table with the poorly written entry, and advise players who use it beforehand.

You target a single square AC 10, since it has no entry for splash damage it can't target an intersection. It doesn't benefit from any precision damage adds (being an AOE), but does benefit from weapon spec, enhancements, etc.

I could see an argument (at the most) for the idea that a 5ft burst would be possible in a 2x2 around an intersection instead, but not in a 3x3 at all (see also no splash damage entry for the surrounding squares).

You are correct on targeting an intersection with a splash weapon. In that case it does the splash damage only to a 2x2 map section around the intersection.

The only damage listed in the original post was for the original 5ft burst area, with a reflex save.

Not having this particular splatbook, I don't have the full text, but based on the OP quoted section I don't see a splash damage entry, which is listed separately from all direct damage entries in every other instance. Since the Arrow in question doesn't have a splash damage entry, if you fire it at an intersection it seems it does nothing at all.

Yeah... 5ft burst in AOE situations means a single square.

If it meant an intersection, it would be a 5ft. radius burst.

Other than that, because it's an arrow fired, all bonuses applicable to arrow/bow that you are using would apply. Single target Reflex save.

Mostly relevant to swarms, or oozes, since anything else will have a decent chance to negate the whole thing with a DC18 reflex save.

Don't have the Blood of the Moon splatbook. But, from posters upthread, it seems that one of them gets hoof/hoof/bite.

If that same character were to level exclusively as Wild Stalker Ranger, (which very much fits the moon bloodrage feral) you would have access to 2 more claws and a gore.

Giving, at level 1, hoof/hoof/claw/claw/bite, and at level 4(or 5) the Gore from Fiend totem.

6 attacks, with rage boosting Str, all at full BAB, seems pretty sweet.

However, if you have faith that you can get the mammoth helm (which IMO no sane GM will give you after he sees the rest of the build) as a magic item, you can instead work on the beast totem pounce, altho it comes on line a little later.

Don't know if the werekin get the same kind of Catfolk Pounce that Catfolk do, which is the other option.

:P ..... It's definitely been around a while since this was a 6 month thread necro.

Now... I ask you to consider the slayer ACG playtest class, who gets all the fun of a ranger, and rogue talents, then going into Horizon Walker after level 6.


Fun meaty gobbets abound.

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The fact that you chose to use a Longspear, knowing in advance that it has the reach property, and that weapons with the reach property can't attack adjacent targets, should be all that has to be said when you try to pull this B*$#@$(*t.

If you don't like the limitation, don't use the weapon.

Try a whip, it has reach, but can also be used to attack adjacent targets.

Problem solved, without rules contortions to get around the actual rules.

Not when they only get one as a base inquisitor. If you have a level of cleric as well, you could take one domain and one inquisition, as one of your "normal" cleric domains has to match the inquisitors.

Interestingly, a level of druid would let you take a domain that didn't match your inquisition, since the cleric language isn't inclusive of druid domains, and I would guess that applies to any class other than cleric that could grant a domain.

Druid 4/Wild Stalker Ranger 5.

Rage-Pounce-Smite with 5 attacks at level 9 with a 30(+) str and character level in additional damage, all ignoring DR.

Mine pretty much ENDS all combats.

And they won't see it coming.

I'm also playing a MoMS Monk2/witch x, and mine is good at 3rd level even in PFS.

Take the big 6 knowledges, with that feat to use only int and dex, you can be most useful.

+1 on the Kirin Style and Kirin Strike.

Swift action on the buff/hex 1st round, swift on the 2nd buff/hex round, after that throw shuriken doing d3+2xINT, or use acid splash/ray of frost/disrupt undead the same way.

After a SUCCESSFUL attack, you can choose to add double int to damage on any attack roll.

Take the magical knack trait to up the CL by 2, and Student of Philosophy to use Int for bluff/diplo checks.

Grab the corset of dire witchcraft, and the cackling hags blouse.

With Int, Dex, Mage Armor, to AC, you should be good, and with only 2 stats you can boost Con to be viable up close.

Take the +4 Init familiar of some kind (scorpion/rabbit)

As a Tiefling or Elf you have stat synergy, as an elf you get free spell penetration, and can take another alt racial to boost sleep saves (it says effects not just spells so hex works).


Slayer Playtest class 6 - into Horizon Walker 6.

Take the ranger no-pre-req feats at 2nd and 6th, take terrain mastery as slayer talent at 4th level.

Focused study for +2 hit/damage. Terrain Mastery/dominance underground and aligned, free blind fight and darkvision either 60/120ft depending on race, plus all weapons count as special material/alignment based on your choice.

Against enemies that are found underground/aligned (to bypass those pesky DRs without having to get holy weapons) you get an additional +10/10 and +8/8 to hit and damage. I'd choose some kind of good aligned plane, for a PFS type game where evil are the main enemies.

You can also use plains, get no move speed penalty in medium armor and a +10 ft move, and get the bonus against humans since arguably they are native to plains environs. Swamp gets you +4 perception and Tremorsense.

PROS: Full BAB the whole way, d10 HD the whole way, 2d6 sneak attack, 6 skills/level, fort/ref saves.

CONS: have to have Endurance feat, spend 6 pts on knowledge geography, limited on full feat chains (only 5 feats +2 style feats by 11th level).

Since it says "as Beast Shape IV", duration would be 11 minutes, as the item is Caster level 11 and the spell is 1 min/level.

Just so you know, if you want to dump int down to 10, you can. The latest notes on the brawler say that they count as int 13 for the purpose of combat maneuver pre-reqs.

Unless you just want those extra skillpoints, you don't have to have it that high, and that frees up a couple more points for stats.

Stats: Str 17 (All increases) Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 (possibly Cha 7 wis 12)

Combat Expertise, Power attack, WF, trip, Weapon Spec(unarmed) for the first 5 feats.

Use the feat you can select as a choice to get either viscious stomp or boar style, depending on the enemy at the moment. Remember, that 2d6 bleed bypasses DR, once you get it on at low levels it can really help.

Brawling Light armor (4kgold) gets you another +2 hit/damage around level 4. As well, AoMF 4k and str belt 4k are going to be your big purchases.

I would also say that it counts.

just like a wizard who can cast dimension door doesn't lose the dimensional dervish line of feats because they didn't prep the spell for that day.

No... there's a FAQ about that exact question, claws on the feet are "talons" and for balance purposes you aren't supposed to get the extra attacks (which could be as early as 2nd level 5 attacks) unless you get the extra "limbs". (meaning extra arms, that can hit things while you remain "standing" on sturdy supports i.e. legs that aren't involved in the attack.)

And, before the kicking thing comes up in an argument, normally kicks require either IUS (a feat investment), class abilities, a special weapon(boot blade), or they provoke an AoO as they leave you open to counter attack while you're off balance.

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Eldritch Claws (feat, counts as magic and silver I believe)

and... AoMF+3/4/5 are it.

Angel Blooded Aasimar.

If you're going for more balanced, and aren't planning on 2handing a weapon anyways, 16 STR is plenty to start. But, Str +2 belt will be the first 4k gold purchase you make, and all stat points will go there as you level. And you need several skills at low levels, so being able to maybe bump int to 13 later for the combat maneuver feats is worth planning for.

Str 14(16)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8 (10)

Truespeaker is good, but don't take Halo. Darkvision is a must (if you're playing a race with it as an option), since many PFS modules have Darkness casting enemies, especially at low levels, and the light spell from a halo doesn't work then.

Skills: FOR PFS, since I run/play a lot of these, you need certain things that most forum min-maxers seem to ignore, because in PFS completing side missions affects the max cost of what items you can buy during play. Always ! max perception. Other skills, put at least a point in intimidate/diplomacy (so you can try, or at least aid others), any knowledges that are class skills(many missions need these to succeed), swim/climb(just to get high enough to take 10 without a penalty), stealth (just enough to negate your armor check).

Traits: if you are committed to straight fighter, take one of the campaign traits that makes perception a class skill. (or be Sczarni faction and spend 1pp on it, as a vanity in one of the PFS splatbooks.) Armor Expert (the one that gives +1 AC) Don't worry about dayjob/craft/profession checks, since you aren't one of the classes that synergizes well for stats, you'll never make enough with it to justify the skill points into it.

For feats, if she wants sword and board, don't listen to all the people who call it wrong if you cant do 234348 damage in a hit, PFS modules are made for 15-20pt builds of 4 players, and scale based on level and number of players.

Feats: Shield Focus, Missle Shield (I would take this at low levels, when one arrow crit can drop you, and use it to retrain at level 4 to get weapon spec then. Power attack @2nd, Weapon Focus @3rd, Weapon Spec @4th, either from retraining missle shield or just taking it, if you retrain take Step up as well. As much as damage is a point, surviving and cutting down enemies effectiveness can win the day, and she'll feel like less of a one trick pony.

Use 2PP from one of your first games for a Cure Light Wounds wand, and another 2PP for a Masterwork Darkwood Composite (+3) Longbow. That's about as much as you want to worry about for ranged, since you're not focusing on it. Later, spend 3k gold on the bow to make it +1 Adaptive to take advantage of your str bonus going up for damage.

Start with 4 Mirror armor in Adv players/Ult equip guide, best medium armor out there for 45g. Don't worry about enchanting it for several levels, since you'll want to upgrade when you can get full move in heavier armors later, and you only get back half price. Buy ring of protection/amulet of natural armor as your first AC boosting items.

Pick whatever shield you want, and stick with that. My suggestion is a heavy spiked, and enchant it as you go up for extra AC, since you'll not be really spending money on base armor until you hit level 7, and can move at full speed in Heavy fullplate.


Depends on the weapon/ability.

Polearm Fighter treats it as a club, and slowly (at level 18) negates the penalty, and takes a swift to shift.

Dragoon doesn't get it until 7th, but then gets all the magical bonuses and everything with both ends.

Dorn Dergar takes a swift to switch, and is an exotic weapon (I think).

Several others are double weapons, many of them exotic.

Catch off Guard, Throw Anything negate the penalty for melee and ranged improvised weapons respectively, and have added bonuses as well.

it lets her swap whatever spell level she gets the cure at from the witch list. If you get a spell earlier for some reason, it's lined out in the ability. (such as winter witch, patrons, etc.)

If she gets a cure spell at x level, she can swap any spell she has memorized of that same level.

CLW = 1st level
CMW = 2nd level
CSW = 4th level
CCW = 5th level


Because, if you use the Improvised weapon rules to get around not being able to attack adjacent enemies (which is the penalty that balances out the benefits of using a reach weapon), then one feat invalidates several class features/special abilities/exotic weapon abilities.

And, the OP admitted that he saw the restriction as valid, and is trying to loophole around it.

This entire thread should have ended once the "I'm trying to game the semantics to avoid taking the penalty" admission was reached.

Now it's just a "I want to win the Internetz!" argument.

Note: It doesn't matter if it measures 1 3/4", or 2", it's still small.

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You can also use it after a thrown weapon attack, a guy here for PFS uses it in that fashion very successfully. Usually with handaxes.

I'm assuming the weapon includes bonuses from magus blade enhancements, on top of weapon cost.

Yeah... it's not really worth it for a pure caster per se, but for my monk witch, I got them as bonus feats, and with feral Combat training's new faq, Monastic Legacy and Monks robe, scaling monk damage hair using my Int as Str is just funny.

I'll run up and stop 5 ft from an enemy, in no armor, with no weapons out except a xbow, and hex, then when they step up smack them for stupid damage as an AoO. (a caster with a +8 to hit for d4+18 damage at 5th level is stupid IMO, not thf/barb power attack stupid, but still pretty wicked).

Also, with an inflict light wounds charged up (PFS, so 2 PP why not).
Getting Ghoul Touch and Vamp Touch for later, as well as the higher inflicts.

I've also seriously considered high Int xbow fighter/sage sorc arcane archer with Focused shot and Kirin Strike, since he can enter style and get a head start on it during ambushes, but it would be much better in a home game, getting dex and 3xInt to damage with readied shots would be sweet sniper type.

Evoker wizard 8+/Crossblooded orc-dragon sorc 1.

PBS, Precise, Kirin Style, Kirin Strike, IUS.

First round haste, swift activate style. 2nd round CC, swift make knowledge checks. 3rd round damaging spell/attack get normal +2per die +Wiz level +2xInt(swift after attack is successful).

So, ray of frost does d3+2+8+14= d3+24... not bad for a cantrip @ 9th level, ranged touch, unlimited uses. same for Acid splash(bypasses SR) and Disrupt undead (incorporeal usually have low HP, so half damage is still good.)

I have a MoMS Monk2/Witch3 (22 Int) in PFS play that is currently doing d3+12 with cantrips, d8+12 with a lt. xbow, and d4+18 with Prehensile hair. I'm taking Focused Aim soon to get 3xInt with the crossbow next.

I can also see an Arcanist with the orc/dragon bloodline as one of his exploits, and the Evoker school exploit, spending a point from his pool to do this when it really counts.

There are numerous weapons/abilities which allow you to use a weapon for both reach and adjacent, and all of them either specify that you have to pick one or the other for the round, use some type of action to switch between the two, or are granted as part of a "long" term investment in a particular class or archetype.

Once again, my entire problem with this line of reasoning is that the OP specified that they were doing this in order to avoid the normal penalties associated with wielding a reach weapon, namely, the inability to attack adjacent enemies at the same time with the same weapon.

Has to be Masterwork to enchant it at all. (which can be done with the Masterwork transformation spell, the materials of which are = to the cost of the masterwork add on for weapons 300g and for armor 150g)

One of the best things for a Str based character in PFS is a MW Composite Darkwood Longbow (Str+3). Which comes in at 730g, just under the limit for a 2 PP purchase btw.

We did an all dwarven party one time, it became a great epic quest that started when their favorite tavern burned down, and they had nowhere to drink after a hard day working in the sequin mines(Major export to elven lands). This of course had to be avenged, so they mounted up their trusty Warboars and charged off into the wilds, hellbent for whatever evil overlord had caused this travesty.

After 15 levels of barfighting/fiendslayinig their way across the continent, they eventually returned home to find out that the tavern had merely relocated 3 blocks down the street, when the old one was found to have a serious fraggle infestation and was burned to prevent an epidemic. (Our GM liberally and blatantly ripped off pretty much anything he saw or read.)

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Ok. So, I have an idea.

CRB Catch off Guard feat wrote:

Catch Off-Guard (Combat)

Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.

UC Rogue talents wrote:
Weapon Snatcher (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

Based on the consensus here, I could steal any enemies weapon as my first attack, and then so long as I held it anyway other than the right way, I could immediately qualify as a sneak attack?

Doing what you are asking, is an ability semi-granted to a couple of archetypes.

Polearm master @ level 2 gets to adjust his grip as an immediate action (so he can use it for AoOs), takes the -4 penalty (which gets reduced as per bravery), and doesn't get the benefit of weapon enchants when using it this way. He then has to use another immediate to change it back to "normal" grip before he gets reach back.

Dragoon gets it at 7th, but it lets him freely alternate attacks, and he also gets to count the enhancements to it on both ends, without the cost of a double weapon, and takes no penalties at all on it.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

That is the question I'm asking, but it doesn't rely only on the wording of the improvised weapons rule, it also asks if the intentional limit on reach weapons (inability to attack adjacent foes) can easily be ignored by saying that your reach weapon is an improvised non-reach weapon.

Is this way to circumvent the reach weapon disadvantage 'rules legal'.

Now, based on the single statement you made above, I have to ask are you also planning on taking Improvised Weapon Mastery and trying to get it to negate that -4 to it? You're doing a lot of work to circumvent one of the main penalties to using a reach weapon, one that historically had swordsmen intermingled with ranks of spearmen to cover for them.

Take the trait that makes you use int instead of Cha for bluff/diplo, Student of Philosophy. Doesn't work on gather info or feint in combat, but you probably won't do those anyways.

Honestly, I wouldn't spend 5PP on a feat retrain either, but he asked how to legally do it so it works for PFS, and that's the only way to get those feats any earlier.

It's not worth it, but it is an option.

You should also read the blogpost where SKR mentions using a sap to hit someone in the groin to apply sickened, and specifies it as one example where the weapon counts.

Dragon turtle, nuff said.

Aquatic-type Druid, level... 8-9. Not the actual archetype, just the fluff. Wildshape whatever, wood shape, warp wood, etc. ship starts springing leaks, rudder is all warped, sharks/squid/octopus companions... Control weather and Call lightning, all because the ships anchor just dragged thru her protected reef.

Aboleth, with gillmen slaves. This can get really bad really quick.

Half orc Skulking slayer is even better. You can do a Dirty trick in place of any sneak attack, with a bonus = to sneak dice (makes up for the BAB) so don't need quick dirty trick or MM monk to get them in a full attack.

Lore Warden 7/Skulking slayer 5 with a 22 STR (should easily be higher)
Has a Dirty Trick CMB of 10(BAB)+6(STR)+4(feats)+3(sneak)+2(ioun stone)+2(gloves of maneuver, +3 if you can use the weapon and use gloves of Dueling instead for that weapon)+4(lorewarden)+(if it uses a weapon, weapon enhance x3 with the dueling enchantment)

Base 31 (+4 for a +2 weapon/gloves dueling if usable, +7 for +3, etc)

And, since they're blinded, they are sneak attack ready for anything after the first hit.

Which should, at this level, be ridiculous. d10/2d6 + 20 +3d6 at least per hit.

First, you can sub trip for any attack (including ones in a cleave). Second, if you cleave (even if it's not damage, the target is flat-footed, making your trip more likely to hit. Then, because they fell down Greater trip grants me an AoO, and since they're flat footed at the time, I use the Greater trip AoO to blind them with dirty trick. It burns a lot of Combat reflexes, but damn, is it ever fun. Of course, at 10th level, his will save is a 3. So, you win some, you lose some.

You have to own Animal Archives for any pet/companion class, it's almost mandatory to have access to the tricks, the animal archetypes (for your companion, almost like classes for the animal), and the extra body slots.

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