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If the spell takes an attack roll, my hard and fast arguement is as such:

If we were talking about a shortbow instead, and the shortbow would qualify for sneak attack in the same situation, then the spell gets it. If not, then it doesn't.

Using a weapon to make a dirty trick is actually raw... and reiterated by SKR... provided the GM agrees that it makes sense to use the weapon in the manner described.

This has come up several times.

in the description itself it uses saps... with refernce to groin strike to make sickened.

Items needed as well... Burglars Buckler 4400g(+2 to dirty tricks, no attack penalty, and can turn into any type of masterwork tool needed) if the GM allows them, Wayfinder slotted with a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5250g (+1 insight to AC, +2 to CMB/CMD) +X Dueling weapon (+1 bonus)(gives 3x bonus to all CMBs that can use the weapon, I recommend scorpion whip, but not necessary to be that)

Mine happens to be a lore warden/rogue, and a half orc, so the whip prof and such was easier... along with an extra bonus to all dirty tricks = to his sneak dice, and the ability to use DT any time he could sneak.

Low light Vision and Scent can also both be found in the wererat/werewolf... which are both Humanoid creatures per the Bestiary.

So... how do you guys then adjudicate the couple of archetypes that use the language:

"X Training: The (whatever) gets weapon training, but only with (X) type weapons. "

Since it specifically says they get weapon training... Notably, the Dragoon.

Spear Training (Ex): At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon's weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level). The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.

Note: This is different than the polearm master training, as that never mentions the words weapon training in the ability.

The Shield Slam feat specifically adds that if the square is a wall or occupied, then they do fall down, it requires Imp Bull Rush. I have it for my PFS legal character even.

Other than that, it doesn't work.

In 3.5, I dont seem to recall that line, I think that is how it worked in 3.5 with just the basic bull rush feat. But then again, they only had 1 level of maneuver feat then.

Looking at it in that light, Whirlwind actually makes more sense to be the final feat in the cleave chain, after great cleave.

Cleave: Make one extra attack in reach and adjacent, if the first hits.
Great Cleave: (BAB +4)Make an attack on each adjacent target in reach, so long as each hits.
Whirlwind: (BAB +4) Make one attack on every target within reach, no longer requires adjacent, no longer requires prior hits.

Cracked Vibrant Orange Ioun Stone(I think), 1k, any one cantrip added to your spell list.

It's what my witch uses for acid splash and disrupt undead.

Your goal of stopping "stupid" save DC's... what do you consider "stupid"?

The game bases around ~50% chance to save for on level CRs for the creatures good saves, and around 75% chance to fail on the weak saves.

And that, is basing on an 18 in the primary casting stat to start.

Feats give another +1/feat, bloodlines give +2, etc.

Now... I have seen a level 6 kitsune sorcerer with a DC 23/25 save to a 3rd level spell, with all the feats, all the fvc bonuses, a trait, and a bloodline devoted to it.

But, you know what he didn't do? survive the AoE in retaliation even at half damage, he was unconscious. So it's a mixed bag.

I have a question Stuart. With those new arrays, what classes do you expect to use the lower 2 arrays?

I ask because there is no dex or con for a fighter in those arrays, so I'm assuming they will dump dex and have even less skills/face ability than even a normal fighter... see also barbarian.

If you say wizard, then they definitely don't want to play an elf (which is an iconic long standing concept) since they have either: a 8 con, 16-18 dex; or a 12-14 con and a 12 dex, which even for ranged touch attacks won't let them hit for long, and means a pretty shabby ac even for a wizard... and i'm not even going to get into the stupidity of even a wizard with an 8 con in a premade module.

So... even for "sad" classes by everyone's accounts, your "sad" arrays, are just that... sad. Or more importantly, traps for those who don't know better.

Instead of this array, you obviously don't want to deal with 18s before racials, so just limit the normal point buy to 8-16 before racials, and let them work with that.

It's what you are functionally doing anyways, at least this way it's honest on your part.

Our groups always like rolling, it seems like there's more than just optimized Point buy builds then... but we kinda keep everyone on an even field.

We do 2d6+6 (and usually reroll 1s) for everyone, then when we have the stat lines generated, all in a group in view, we choose any of the arrays rolled by anyone. If we have 4 players, we'll have 4 possible statlines, and anyone can use any of them. This means noone ever gets "dice-hosed"... but all the stats are equal, either because you all chose the best, or you chose the one with the best for your particular build.

This also lets more experienced players take a lower statline to keep the group even in the case of optimizers.

Never had any complaints, and we have used this since 2nd Ed.

Yes, it usually ends up with better than average stats, but you are supposed to play heroes, after all.

Monk/Inquisitor of Pharasma, mindset Everyone's body is a temple not to be descrated after death.

It just gets fun... bane+flurry... is made of Win to make up for the bad BAB.

I'm playing a Dirge/Sound striker bard with a single fey/serpentine dip in PFS actually right now.

At 1sorc/6bard he has... around DC 19 1st level spells and goes up from there.

It was priceless the first time I used sleep to drop a group of skeletons at low levels... the GM was like... what? lemme see... damn. Ok... fights over. Same for suggestion on some large critter, can't remember what exactly.

Blistering Invective to Demoralize undead is cool, the fire damage is good... and you have the sound striker to have damage options, normal bard buffs for regular play, and, if you look through some of the Masterpieces and play a race with extra spells as favored class bonus, the ones that stack with your percussion for intimidate are pretty cool.

Notably... Triple time, low level movement boost... and Quickening Pulse... 1d6 bleed which will work on anything but constructs, oozes, and elementals(its restriction is critable enemies within 30ft).

On a related note, look into a +1 Conductive Xbow once you have Weird Words. After you make a successful attack, you can spend 2 rounds of perform to channel Weird words into the target, fort for half. It has to be a ranged weapon of some sort tho, the Conductive property states same type of attack as the ability you channel, which in this case is ranged.

wow... nothing?

Actually... although this is not what the designer had planned... without any new errata which may or may not be out there...

they get the totem thing at 2... then they get normal wildshape at 4... then at level 6 it jumps to huge for their totem animal and stays at 4 for anything else...

Specifically because it does -not- say it replaces the normal wildshape gained at level 4, only that at level 6 it modifies how it works.

Note, this is not how the writer of the archetype planned it, but it is how it was written and published.

Looking at a new char for PFS, and although I generally hate the idea of firearms in my fantasy, I'm going to try one out for the sake of giving it a fair shake.

That said... I'm mixing in Bard for several reasons, not the least of which is the Jury Rig spell since i'm looking at the Mysterious Stranger Archetype to mesh better, and they give up the quick clear deed which I just know will come up vs. a BBEG.

I also have a plan to combine a Sound Striker Bard with a +1 Conductive Pistol and use it to channel Weird Words for those oh S#%t moments.

I figure with the Cha synergy, the spells to boost/catchall the stuff, and the bardic performances to boost the party, I'll be a general skillmonkey/face but still be able to hold my own if DPR is needed.

Looking at Str 8 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18 Aasimar (dex/cha variant)

Favored Class Bonus will be for the 1/2 level bardic performance boost, focusing on Weird Words, and counting as level 9 at level 6 when I get it.

Looking at 1st gunslinger, next 7 bard (for move performances), then last 4 gunslinger for PFS 12th level completion.

Nice thing is, I get to start at level 3 with GM credits, so the first couple levels are already survived, and I begin with both point blank and precise shot, unless anyone can point out other feats that would be better, those 2 pretty much being required for the close quarters of most PFS scenarios. Not worried about rapid reload because I plan to have an Unseen Servant around to follow me and reload my weapon for me, and there's an item/spell etc that will do it by the time I plan to rely on the gun for more than occasional use.

Are there any traits I should go for in particular? Any items (PFS legal, so no bandolier) I should grab?

Yup. It's an Admiral Ackbar special for sure.

Actually, you can have 2 guns in pfs, you just can't get shots off with both of them every round, as was pointed out, all the early firearms which are the only ones legal in PFS need a free hand to reload. You can only start with a single shot pistol or musket, and you have to be able to buy 1500gp items with your fame to purchase the 2nd pistol (never always available, even to gunslingers).

(I have seen the weapon cord/double barrel pistol cheese proposals, and as the weapon cord mentions not being able to use "fine motor skills" with one on, a black powder gun of any type is *right* out, and every GM I have ever seen deal with gunslingers has also interpreted it that way.)

Also, you must be a gunslinger of at least 1st level in PFS to have a gun at all, as guns are only available to gunslingers and the amateur gunslinger feat was illegal for any other class to take last time I looked.

Our group is also playing RoW... and we have determined that cold resistance makes the non-lethal irrelevant, but once the temp goes to such extremes as to become lethal, 1d6 has a *small* chance of causing actual damage, so you have to check at that point.

As for the snowblindness and the fatigue, those are still valid without proper survival gear/skillchecks.

At least how we are playing it.

That's what he's saying. when you have multiple AC granting classes, the levels stack for all of them per the druids AC entry in the CRB.

Core Rule Book wrote:
The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.

Mad Dog grants an AC ... so any druid levels will stack with the mad dog AC feature... no feat needed.

I'm a huge fan of the Deception subdomain, swift 10ft teleport on a missed attack? On a full casting class that can easily buff to one of the highest AC'S?

IRL, I personally have a very good swim skill. Not competition, but i grew up in the water, can swim for over a mile easily, hold my breath for over 2 minutes while swimming, deep water diving cert, etc.

Now, have me weighted down with normal clothes, and that drops by a good 1/4 or so, an actual weight belt, (typically 15-18lbs for my size), probably to 1/3 that.

If you want to include sinking based on the rules, just make a failed check sink by 5ft/encumbrance category.

The 10 str char with 30 lbs of gear will sink faster than a 10 str char with 10 lbs of gear.

The weight penalty is factored into the check to start, so your rate of success goes down already and doesn't need to modify the sinking distance, but the amount of weight pulling you down will sink you faster or slower, compared to your size.

(based on a 20 str character having more body mass which is actually buoyant?sp? in water, while the 10 str will have less to offset the same weight).

The whole point of the cleave/reach chain is that dwarves get access to Goblin Cleaver and Orc Hewer, which removes the requirements of being adjacent for valid cleave targets. Also, if you look at Surprise Follow Thru from the APG, although it is listed in the h-orc section, it does not actually require you to be a half orc. It is there because one of the archetypes for h-orc rogue gets it as a rogue talent.

Dwarven THF 7/rogue thug 5 with a Dorn Duergar:
20 pt. buy : Str 17 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 5.
Increase Str with levels for the better stats for creation.

1F: PA/cleave
2F: Goblin Cleaver
3R: Orc Hewer (d6 sneak)
4F: (dbl Str damage on first swing)
5F: Cleaving Finish, Surprise Follow Thru (sneak on all cleave targets)
6R: rog tal(Befuddling Strike, -2 attacks makes up for cleave AC loss)
7R: Great Cleave (2d6 sneak, can lose 1d6 sneak to make target sickened)
8F:
9F: Imp Cleaving Finish, Imp Surprise Follow Thru
10R: Rogue Talent (wpn focus)
11F: wpn spec
12R: 3d6 sneak

Feel free to sub in dazing assault and darting viper for the 2nd rogue talent and the weapon spec, that 2pts of damage is worth less than dazing in my opinion.

Although, reading Dazing Assault. At the first level you can take it, it has a save of Fort 21 (BAB 11). CR 11 creatures have between a +14/+16, so 25-35% chance to fail after you have taken a -5 on the attack, (leaving you with approx 10 + magic bonuses trying to target AC's in the 25-28 range for CR 11 creatures). so... a 50% miss chance assuming you have 5-7 points of additional bonuses above and beyond your 18 base str. then you have a ~30% chance for them to fail the save.

Dwarf Monk(2 or 4)/Inq 5 of a lawful neutral god of death.

More of an enforcer type for those who would call the dead back through the veil.

Use Guided on either bodywraps or an AoMF for wis to hit/damage.

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Inq/rogue for the bounty hunter, probably thug for the intimidate angle, and the deception subdomain for the teleport on a miss.

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Gnome cleric/sorc with the illusion/trickery domain focus and the trait/feat to make all illusions have substance, all of a sudden your ghost sound is an actual flanking partner for your inq/rog buddy seen above.

Oh hell yeah. The Lotus Geisha is much better than a normal bard, so long as you plan on actually spending points on knowledges.

Usually in the games around here, if you don't have a bard, you don't get half the knowledge rolls available at the table.

I would also consider a single level Lore Oracle dip with Cha to knowledges for this kinda character, fits pretty well. Or a cross blooded sorc for the bloodlines to add creatures that are affected by your mind affecting spells.

The biggest problem with the geisha is the 10 min prep time to do the basic inspire performance, and the duration of 10 minutes thereafter, coupled with the 4 rounds -per creature- to be affected.

I have had GM's that read that as the only way they can use those performances, and that makes them useless.

If your GM reads that as an alternative to the normal use of those performances, then you can do the normal in combat and that with prep time, which is fine.

The bonus Scribe Scroll is disallowed in PFS but replaced with spell focus (should be in enchantments) and is pure win.

There are also various feats in UC to cover that... hex strike, school strike, sorcerous strike, depending on where you get the SU ability from.

A +1 Conductive Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes is also a good choice, leaving your AoMF spot open for an unarmed focused character.

as a matter of fact, kirin style/kirin strike lets you add -double- your int with a successful attack, costing a swift action -after- you see if you hit.

There is none for PFS since the Guided property is not core. Sensei or Guided Hand feat are the only ways.

Don't listen to them.

You have the stats, stay with the trip route, only make sure you pick up Felling Smash. power attack, trip, gr trip, felling smash. you get the same 2 attacks you normally do at 6th level, but the iterative is only at a -1 instead of -5 since he's prone, and you gain a bonus hit in action economy for the free attack on standing.

Then, you power attack, get a free trip on top, and a free attack on the prone guy after it. It works wonders.

Do you have any character justification to take a 2 level dip into ranger? a couple of good skills, wand use, no loss of feat progression, and by taking the 2 level dip now, you can use your 4th level retrain to pick up both of the +6 BAB requirement feats at 6 instead of 7.

DONT use clouded vision for a buffer/skill monkey. If you cant see, you can't target. No knowledge checks until the enemies get to 30 ft. Most of PFS is played before level 7, and if you're dipping, you won't see your 60ft range until over half your games are done. I've GM/played about 50 scenarios, I've GM/played with oracles with clouded vision, they are worthless regardless of the on-paper viability.

Use legalistic and lame if you want dual cursed.

Working with vital strike which specifically uses your (standard) attack action, means that I was correct in believing that it does not -require- a (standard) "attack" action on it's own, but is instead a rider on a normal "attack" action or charge which works on a single attack. I.E. it would work on the first swing of cleave, but not any extras from cleave/great cleave.

If he did say that, then it -would- work on cleave, but only on the first attack not the cleave attacks.

If that's the way they want it to stand, fine.

It means the THF is useless for what I want it for, since I was looking at it as applying to the first target of a cleave, and then using surprise follow thru to apply sneak attack damage and normal 1.5 str to all the rest.

They really need to remove the "attack action" verbiage from their materials, and either say standard action to use x or "on an attack x happens" to apply to all.

It just seems that they make several things to make mobile fighters viable, then say that you can't use more than one of them at a time, which basically puts a mobile melee build back into to position of chasing a pounce mechanic in order to keep up.

Angel blooded Aasimar +2str/cha if a paladin. And keep the alter self SLA instead of the +2 to Str alt... you never know when several minutes of scent, water breathing, the ability to glide, etc. will be useful.

I'm just reading it differently I guess.

English writing, when using (), says that the statement in the () can be removed without changing the meaning. The () is used to clarify, or give examples of other portions of the statement. (i.e. ... etc)

So, by that, we should also be able to take the statement (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This ability replaces armor training 1.

This would also mean that it applies to any single attack, but not iteratives or (if you were able to somehow dual wield 2h weapons) when twf or whatever.

The difference I see is the vital strike says when you use the attack action, x happens. Cleave says you use a standard action to make a single attack, then x happens.

Overhand chop says when you make a single attack, x happens. The () are possible ways to do it, not the only ways. It specifically calls out the attack action to differentiate it from backswing, which is when you get to do it on all attacks in a full attack. It also gives the charge exception, because at the end of a charge (without pounce) you get to make a -single- attack.

The way you're describing it, it will only work on your turn. It makes no sense that someone who is super specialized in 2h weapon fighting is only better at it than a normal fighter on their turn not everyones.

If it were meant to say what you say it does, why would it not read

(Ex): At 3rd level, when using the attack action or a charge to make a single attack with a two-handed weapon, a two-handed fighter adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces armor training 1.

This would be the same wording as vital strike, and have no possible misinterpretation.

Same basic build as Calagnar, but go 6/6 ranger rogue instead. Without a wis boosting item, you won't get 2nd level spells at 7th level ranger anyways, the 1 hp wont matter, but the rogue talent will. It's a free feat effectively, or better. The BAB is the same either way, the will save goes up, and your uncanny dodge is that much better.

As a matter of fact, lose the 1st combat style feat, and you can go urban/wild staker ranger (3 rage powers total) and knifemaster rogue for d8 sneak attack dice. Knifemaster gives up trapfinding, urban ranger gets it instead, and you get imp uncanny dodge to boot.

Then, unless you had some particular reason to be a half elf, you can be a human, with distant elven blood, still getting low light vision, a bonus on perception, and the bonus feat back that you lost from the combat style, as you meet the pre-reqs you were gonna ignore anyways.

Once again, the problem is people mis building the eidolon. It is clearly in print, you cannot even -take- an evolution that brings you over the max attacks allowed. So... claw/claw/bite is the best until 4, at which point you may put claws on the feet if you want, or take extra limbs and extra claws, but not even a legal build for a 3rd attack that uses the same evolution synergy (all claws etc.) until you can get it in even numbered increments.

And, for those who like the reach evolution, if you have 4 arms, and 4 claws, and reach(claws), you only get it on ONE set as it cannot be taken multiple times, and applies to ONE type of natural attacks, and they come in pairs each time they are taken.

Make sure you take the Grab evo so that if it is successful you automatically pull them adjacent to you and can finish the full attack.

I have seen that build in PFS as well as the 4 claws but only make 3 attacks build.

And, at low levels multiple attack rolls usually trump mass damage, as 10-12 points kills it either way, 2d6 +13 and 3x 1d6+5 (usually 2 out of 3 hit) means one enemy a round dies either way. The summoner just gets to roll more dice, while the barb says "does my roll hit? he dies."

But the quickling has sneak attack, making it a rogue, which makes it a dex of 14 +8 race +2 small (all the races that also have playable stats take large/small str/dex into account that I can find)

No... they have a racial bonus of 8. Otherwise, Hobgoblins would have Str +4 Dex +4 Con +6 and wis +2 Cha -2. This is not the case.

Most monsters are built with 15 point buy to start, then size/racials applied after that. a 15/14/13/12/10/8 setup for stats, and racials applied on that. Or the 16/14/12/10/10/8. Racials are always even numbers, so round down to even then take off racial and size and you should be around a 15 point buy for every "humanoid" race i've found.

If you choose your maneuvers correctly, you can actually get them all. Start with blinded, then tripped, then whatever you like (thats -4, -2 and denied dex, so could be a viable option for soaking up those penalties)

They both replace Perfect self, which disqualifies you from taking both.

Ok... does he get to use double his Str damage on AoO's?

I did... that devolved into a dev quote about vital strike and charge, which I know you can't do.

I'm asking about an ability that modifies a standard. (overhand chop), and an action that uses a standard (cleave)
Not 2 separate standard actions, which both cleave and vital strike would be. (and the charge question was overkill, since that's a full round action unless you happen to be staggered or otherwise limited to standards alone)

Vital strike can't modify a charge, or a cleave.

Overhand Chop can modify a vital strike, or a charge, so making sure it can modify a cleave is just for extra clarity.

So... looking at the RAW. This is for a PFS character, so please keep it RAW.

Can a THF archetype using cleave apply his 3rd level ability Overhand Chop to both opponents? or does he have to wait until 7th level when he gets Backswing?

You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

(Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces armor training 1.

(Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor training 2.

Str 14 Dex 19(racial 2) Con 11 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 7.

You can afford the lack of con bonus as an archer. You can take the favored class for HP if you feel squishy, but mine is 4th level and I believe has taken around 20 pts of damage total. a couple of MM and a negative channel in a small room is the worst I can think of.

Bump Dex at 4 and con at 8 if you think it's necessary. Wont need the HP before then.

You're gonna need the dex since you're dropping -2 from rapid and another -1/4 level from deadly aim, having zomg damage won't matter if it misses.

If you keep favored terrain, look at underground (most dungeons count in PFS scenarios) ... but the infiltrator archetype is also a personal favorite... taking evil outsiders and the myriad of things you can use when you need them is great.

Of course, I'm a huge fan of the 6/6 ranger/fighter for archery damage builds.

+1 to the comp darkwood +2 and the adaptive down the road... it'll be a while before you start getting str buffs over the THF or other beatstick anyways.

You actually can, once you reach 4th level and can make all 4 attacks. However, something people most often forget,

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

This means that if you are level 1/2/3 you cannot take the claws evolution again because that would bring you to 4 natural attacks (they only come in pairs based on each set of limbs), which you cannot have.

Yes, Eidolons are broken. No, most of the things that people use to break them are not legal. Yes, you get 4 attacks at full attack bonus at 4th level. It's that sick.

And... the SR needs to be 26. 9-10th level casters -automatically- beat a SR of 10. It's (usually) 10+HD.

Look at it this way. The initiative roll is only made after a hostile action.

Which means, it happens after the first hostile action resolves.

Now, most people roll initiative when the first hostile action is -declared-... which is why this is a question.

Technically the first action resolves before initiative, and uses the instigating creatures surprise round action.

Which is why you can't full attack as a surprise round (barring special circumstances such as pounce and such).

If you run it this way, the first "ambush" round can actually apply those various conditions that affect initiative, and then everything makes sense internally.

That just makes me miss Minute Meteors... 1/round...