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Mysterious Stranger wrote:

In 3rd edition multiclassing made your more powerful because most of the class features were front loaded. If you wanted to gain cool powers as you leveled up you either multiclassed or went into a prestige class, or both. Pathfinder changed this. Now multiclassing usually weakens your character, and most prestige classes are weaker than the normal classes. This is because in pathfinder the classes now gain more class features as they level up. Also now many class features are level dependent. For example your paladin’s smite evil and lay on hands become more powerful as he levels up.

The rule of thumb in Pathfinder is not to multiclass. A paladin is not really feat starved unless you are comparing him to a class that gets bonus feats as a class feature. Compared to a fighter it may seem you have almost no feats, but consider that a does not have much else besides feats. They have weaker saving throws, no magic ability, or defensive abilities that the paladin gets.

That makes perfect sense. I get Divine Bond at lvl 5 that would be delayed if I multiclass. That Divine Bond itself makes me stronger as it's a free enhancement to my weapon. I will keep rocking my Pally and smite all who stand before me. Thanks for the advice!


VoodistMonk wrote:

Furious Focus, assuming your table has removed its connection to Gorum.

Extra LoH is probably what I would pick up at 5.

Paladin is a full BAB class, and you are low enough level power attack isn't a huge penalty, so Furious Focus isn't necessary, in my opinion.

Either way, multiclassing is not the answer.

I am starting to see the light. Thanks for the feedback!


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Don’t multiclass a paladin for an extra feat. It is not worth it. Too many of your class abilities are level dependent. It also delays gaining the higher level class features which also is not worth it.

That was going to be my next question: Is it worth it? It seems like all I am getting in the tradeoff is one extra feat. Is there a good class to multiclass the Pally with?


GM Rednal wrote:
That depends a bit on the weapon you're using - I don't think you mentioned that. If you're heavy on Lay on Hands usage, the Extra Lay on Hands feat should be pretty solid. (Extra Channel also gives you bonus uses, but only to heal, I think.) Furious Focus is also pretty solid when used with Power Attack.

I'm using a Flaming Nodachi.

I can't use Channel Energy because I lost that class feature when I took the Oath of Vengeance archetype which replaced it with Channel Wrath instead.


GM Rednal wrote:
How often are enemies clustered together well enough for Cleave to work in your game? That's normally a very situational feat - though specific gamestyles can make it much more/less effective than usual - and I'm wondering if another strategy might end up working better for you.

So far in the two sessions we have played, we have fought two hordes of creatures: one on land and the other on a ship. What would you suggest in its place? I was also looking at Cornugon Smash to combo with Power/Attack.


born_of_fire wrote:

Aren’t you level 4 now and planning ahead for level 5? That was how I took the situation from your description. If so, you already got your human bonus feat at character level 1. You don’t get a human bonus feat every time you take level 1 of a class. If you are rebuilding, retraining or making your character to start play at level 4 now then yes, it would be three feats at level 1 if your took your first level in fighter and three levels of pally after that.

If you are currently a level 3 pally and go fighter at level 4, you will get one bonus combat feat, that’s it.

(Egads, it took me more than 5 minutes to compose this)

Oooooooooooohhhh! It all makes sense now. I figured I had something mixed up there. You're right though with wanting to multiclass at lvl 5. Lvl 4 Pally gives me spellcasting finally which will come in handy for teamwork play next session. Is there any real benefit to multiclassing a lvl into Fighter? Because I want to maximize my Oath of Vengeance abilities, I will be lacking some other fighting capabilities. Right now, I am running with Fey Foundling, Power Attack, and Noble Scion: Scion of War. If I multiclassed into a Fighter at lvl 5, I would take Cleave and Radiant Charge. My character is built around the LoH ability as that is what he specializes in as an Oath of Vengeance archetype. The way I look at it, I can still be a factor in fighting with the Power Attack/Cleave combo while also able to heal myself and others and if all else fails, I have all those Smites and then a Radiant Charge to use as a Bonzai attack.


born_of_fire wrote:
Wouldn’t you get one feat for hitting level 5 that everyone gets and then one bonus combat feat that the fighter gets at level 1 for a total of two? What is the source of the third feat?

The way I understood it was a fighter gets a bonus feat at lvl 1 making that two plus, as a human, I get a bonus feat for being lvl 1. Is that not right?


I am currently playing an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and just reached lvl 4. I am looking at ways to maximize my feats as Paladin's are generally feat-starved classes anyways. If I took a lvl in Fighter, I could maximize combat feats by taking three of them at lvl 1, then every feat after that I would put into Lay on Hands to maximize my Channel Wrath. What are your thoughts on that moving forward?


Rysky wrote:

Only the skills of the class you take a level in on that level up.

Bloodrager gets 4 + Intelligence, so you (Human) would get 5 for every level you took in Bloodrager.

That's what I thought was the case. It would be too good to be true if it were the other way around. Thanks for clarifying that.


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Now let's say our fighter has an INT of 14. For his first three levels he got 2+ (INT bonus) skill points per level, for a total of 12 skill points at level three, which he can invest in any skills he likes, even ones that are not class skills, at a cost of 1 point for 1 rank, to a maximum of 3 ranks in any one skill. Now if he decides to take a level in rogue for his 4th level, he'll get 8+ (INT bonus) extra skill points to invest, insterad of only 2+ (INT bonus) if he'd taken another level of fighter. He also gets a bunch of new "class skills", giving him a +3 bonus in a bunch of extra skills.

Sorry for restarting an old thread, but I am struggling to find a concrete answer to this. I will use my character as an example to try to make it easier for me to understand. I will be multiclassing at lvl 5 and my character will look like this Paladin 4/Bloodrager 1. With my INT at 10, each time I lvl up, I get 3 skill points (2x Paladin, 1x Human) for the Paladin. With multiclassing in a Bloodrager, I would get 4 skill points. When I make the jump with multiclassing, do I then receive 7 skills points at lvl 5 and every lvl after that or only the skill points for the class I am leveling up?


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I would put all attribute points you get every fourth level into charisma, yes. Starting with a 20 definitelty has upsides, but you'd have to consider which attribute you're going to dump for it then, and the game technical and roleplay implications this would have.

I don't know if I want to dump any more than I already have to get to 20 CHA. Adding all future points in CHA would probably be the route I take so I am still relevant in combat and able to use my favored class bonus for HP vice a skill rank.

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A 7 int, 7 wisdom character I.E. would realistically be really dumb in general, whereas a 10 int, 7 wisdom character can get by with just being naive. Gametechnically, the amount of skill points depend on int, and taking a -2 modifyer on it on and then saying it doesn't matter since you still get 3 skill points per level for getting a minimum of 1 per level, +1 from human and +1 from favored class bonus isn't going to fly all groups. That's a cheesy/lopehole-ish interpretation of the rules to allow you to ignore the -2 skillpoints per level from your negative intelligence, even though it should definitely impact you. Finally, some monsters can deal wisdom or intelligence damage on attacks. If both your mental stats are low then you are highly vulnerable to those killing you in just a few hits.

This was one thing I worried about when assigning my ability points. Though my character is only 17, I didn't want to be a complete idiot and susceptible to more damage because of it. At that age, I can get away with being naive and improve upon that throughout my game play/items.

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Maybe one last piece of advice, I'd at some point buy a Wayfinder slotted with an icandescent blue Ioun stone. This costs around 8000 gold but it grants you +2 wisdom and the blind-fight feat. This helps reducing the low wisdom score and gives you a very valuable tool to use when enemies are going to be using defensive buffs like displacement, which are hell to get through without this.

Thanks for the tip. I have added it to my wish list.


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On the nodachi: the point of where the extended crit range starts outweighing the base damage comes fairly quickly. It's where 5% (or 10% with the improved critical feat) of an attack's total expected damage is expected to deal more dan 1,5 damage. So thirty damage without the feat and fifteen damage with it. That first one might seem a lot, but remember you'll be stacking a lot of damage bonusses as a paladin. Smite evil, divine favor, weapon bond (holy or axiomatic add 2d6 i.e.), power attack, 2h weapon useage (1.5 x str benefits) and external buffs party members use on you are all buffing options you have available and combined all push towards the nodachi. And things like already having flaming weapon push it further. And next to this, if you ever do have to fight underwater, a nodachi will work while a greatsword won't. Look up the underwater combat rules, a nodachi deals full damage and takes no attack penalty since it can do piercing damage while a greatsword can't.

You raise quite the argument. Honestly, I think I will go with the nodachi, not only because of your argument for it, but also because I always pick the greatsword so it will be fun playing with something different.

And thank you for the skill breakdown. Heal and Sense Motive have some pretty compelling descriptions, so I guess I was attracted like a moth to a flame.


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Folks have given a lot of good advice, I don't have much to add. One thing I will say is, CHA is your most important ability score. You add it to all of your saves, you add it to hit, you add it to AC, and with lay on hands CHA gives you more hitpoints than CON does. If you're using a point buy that lets you start with 20 CHA and not tank every other stat, it's a good point buy for a paladin.

Based on this, should I be placed all of my skill upgrades in CHA then?

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A paladin doesn't have to be a stick in the mud, trying to make sure no one has fun. Basically, what a paladin is is a good person, who's trying to make the world a better place. Think about the best, most noble, most selfless people you know. Most of them don't rub it in your face, don't preach at you when they think you're wrong, or when you do something stupid and they have to bail you out. But that's a more effective way to make a convert to the side of light than any heavy handed sermon, no matter how deserved.

Thank you for the advice for how to roleplay a Paladin. MY two trains of thought were to be a Mormon-like Paladin that would proselytize everywhere he went or a Paladin that is more passive with his god's ways and uses his deeds as an example of his god's strength. The latter seems to be the best bet to keep the group involved and interested in the game.


Quote:

First, with this system of point buy, I'd go for this build:

18 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 7 wis, 18 cha.

This is the best combination of damage and accuracy from str, and defensive options which all scale from charisma. Your hidden main defensive feature, the 'targeted' mercy at level 6 (look it up on the compendium), scales off of charisma, as do the number of LoH and spells you get per day. Mid to lategame this is much better than the 1 AC we might lose from not having 12 dex. We're also going to be using a feat to use charisma for our initiative instead of dex, plus it gives extra LoH and better saves overall.

This build out makes a lot of sense. I get to keep my skill points each level and then use my favored class bonus of HP instead of a skill.

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As a general observation, greatswords are never bad options but nodachis are superior in every way, especially when you get the improved critical feat. Since they can also deal piercing damage next to slashing, they also double as a capable underwater weapon.

What makes the nordichi so much better? From what I saw, there is barely a difference between the two with the greatsword outperforming the nordichi at lower levels then barely passing it in later levels.

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Also, a 1 level multiclass in bloodrager (celestial I.E., or even better, Id rager with the kindness emotional focus) opens up the rage class feature, being able to take the extra rage feats and the Id rager also allowing your main melee ally to also attack when you attack, for that ultimate teamplayer vibe. Rage also effectively gives you the effects of 2 toughness feats, Iron will, Great fortitude, 2 x weapon focus and 2x weapon specialisation. Personally I'd say rage in general is too powerful for any melee character not to have, especially if it costs only 1 level and 1 feat. But you might want to be a pure paladin from 1 to 20, of course.]

I don't think I am ready for multi-classing yet. I am transitioning from a pure melee/tank Fighter to a Paladin to ease into the more "complicated" aspects of Pathfinder (e.g. spellcasting). For now, I am going to stick with a pure Paladin.

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-Third, and my personal favorite option, is using the oath of vengeance subtype for extra smite evils per day (this costs channel energy, which you ideally never want to use since it's so bad outside of hospitaler, and even then it's bad), and then using the 'shield other' spell on vulnerable targets in the party. This transfers half the damage they take to you, which you can then heal with your swift action lay on hands on yourself while still full attacking each turn.

After looking at this archetype, this actually fits in very nicely with my backstory. And from what you said about Channel Positive Energy and from what I have read, losing this won't make that much of a difference. If Smite is as strong as every says, that would be more advantageous that Channel Positive Energy anyways.

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You only need 3 skills, being diplomacy, perception, and use magic divice, so 10 int on a human is just fine. Put that favored class bonus into HP every time for solid max hp.

Why just those three skills? What are the advantages/disadvantages to Heal or Sense Motive?

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7. Vision mastery (if you didn't take it yet) or toughness. Toughness has value here since we're using shield other to protect your teammates. You will be taking a lot of damage, best make sure we can take it. Also, with toughness you arguably don't need a belt that increases your constitution score further, enabling you to cheaply get only the str and cha increasing belt and headband. A belt that increases both str and con by 2, for instance, costs 10 k with an upgrade to +4 copsting a whopping 30 k. A belt of only str costs 4 k, while buffing this to +4 costs only 12k and then to +6 'only' 20k.

You gave me some great suggestions for feats, including the bonus to Toughness. Now I need to filter through all the great feedback and build my perfect Smiter.


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Skills: +1 every level into Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device. (Do not spend a single point on Perception. Spotting crap is what your allies are for.)

I like the idea of maximizing Diplomacy and Use Magic Device, but what would I be using Acrobatics for? What are your thoughts on Heal or Sense Motive instead of Acrobatics?


skulky wrote:

Vital strike just isn’t that good. I’d never recommend furious focus on anything other than a mounted charge build. Furious focus only works on your first attack which is most likely going to hit anyway, especially against anything you smite. So get rid of both of those feats entirely. Greater mercy is solid especially when you swift action heal yourself, at 3rd level that would be 2d6+4 healing.

I think step up is an underrated feat, especially against the big bad trying to 5 foot step away from the smiting Paladin. And with high charisma and power attack getting Cornugon smash for free action intimidate for some debuffing.
I would also switch your dex and int. You don’t need intelligence, Paladin is not a skill monkey. Dex will improve saving throw, ac, and initiative, and ranged attacks flying creatures are a thing. And combat reflexes can be a good feat as well if you have the dex to benefit.

Those are great suggestions! There are so many feats it's hard to narrow down ones that fit my fighting style. Cornugon smash seems right up my alley, though. If I were to get rid of Vital Strike and Furious Focus, what order do you recommend for leveling up?


I am looking for advice on building a human 2H Paladin that is effective in combat while still being a team player that can heal. Our campaign is starting at lvl 3 and a 15-pt buy (not following core rules; simple one-up/one-down scores):

STR - 17
DEX - 9
CON - 14
INT - 13
WIS - 8
CHA - 16

I am currently rocking a flaming greatsword (ancestral sword passed on from his father after his initiation as a Paladin) and a masterwork breastplate (due to him being a 17-year-old fresh out of Paladin school sent as a missionary to far-off lands to earn the coveted Knights of Ozem chasuble).

Where I am struggling is in picking my feats. I know Paladins are very capable in combat, so I am trying to maximize that while also being a team player as I have read a lot of forums explaining how a Paladin can ruin a campaign due to their alignment and war-fighting abilities. Here is what I have strategized so far:

1. Power Attack
1. Fey Foundling
3. Weapon Focus
5. Greater Mercy or Furious Focus or Extra LOH
7. Vital Strike or Extra LOH
9. Furious Focus or Extra LOH or Greater Mercy
11. Unsanctioned Knowledge (Adoration, Aid, Heroism, Divine Power)
13. Extra LOH or Furious Focus or Vital Strike
15. Radiant Charge

I have a three feats that are interchangeable as they are campaign-dependent and I want to get a feel for how useful/often I use LOH before I use a feat to get more. I tried balancing healing capabilities with combat skills to ensure survivability for not only myself, but my party members.

Are my abilities spread out to be a fighter first, healer second? Do my feats complement my fighting style and what is the optimized order to select them?