|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
Barachiel Shina wrote:
I can assure you that powergamers in this game are not overly concerned with check penalties and max dex bonuses on armor.
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Only partially. The "knowledge to combat effectiveness" talent they get is very limited, and they utilize intelligence in a clearly magical way that goes beyond "martial scholar" into "magician-scholar" territory. I'm thinking something more like the Student of War PrC.
Oh, excellent! I've been wanting to make a smarty-pants spear fighter for awhile.
That might work as a magus x/spell slinger wizard 1, though you will need rapid reload on top of other ranged feats. You get higher DCs on your spells too, so that's neat.
Alex Mack wrote:
Pure Daring Champions are feat starved, yes. The brawler dip nets you three feats for two levels though, and while it does retard the progression of challenge/precise strike, they will still mean a combined +20 to damage by level 12, as opposed to the +12 that a non-DC cavalier would get.
If your goal is to be a high-ac high-save puncher cavalier, I feel that a Halfling Daring Champion/Order of the Eastern Star might be a better bang for your buck. You don't start out with IUS, true, but two levels of brawler can solve that while giving you another bonus feat and a form of TWF with a single weapon, great for doubling your precise strike deed damage and enabling you to take a buckler in your offhand. Halflings also get several great feats for defensive fighting, as an added bonus. The -2 STR might mean that you suffer damage-wise in the early levels, but once the precise strike deed comes online that should be more than made up for. Having a high CHA isntead of INT (and using CHA for INT feats) means that you can also get some good use from the feat Osyluth Guile in later levels
you need it for the Treat Deadly Wounds standard skill unlocks.
I think that an item which alters the effect of rest does just that. Whether or not it is intended as a "reward" for anything is both unknowable and irrelevant, as it's effect is to alter the result of a rest, and therefore things which are tied to and duplicate the effects of rest.
The only definition of natural rate of healing which I have found in the rules shows up in the Attuned to the Wild feat here. In this feat, it is defined as "the amount of hit points and ability damage you heal from a full night's rest." They are, therefore, tied inexorably together. Things which alter one's natural rate of healing then also alter the effects of rest, and vice versa. This would mean that both Comfort's Cloak and the Periapt of Wound Closure function to alter natural rate of healing, the effects of rest, and subsequently the effects of functions which emulate rest/natural healing.
except that the skill unlocks specify that the treat deadly wounds use grants the same benefits as such rest and have the same effect. If something modifies the effect of the rest therefore, it also modifies the effect of the emulation of such rest which is explicitly stated to mimic it. In this case, the actual time taken is irrelevant, as the effect is treated as if it were indeed a 24 hour rest anyway.
I don't think so. Were that the case, the "doesn't require a healer's kit" part would be utterly meaningless, as you technically dont' have to use a healer's kit to treat deadly wounds anyway. In any case, not requiring a healer's kit does not mean that you can't use one.
Ill grant you the second point here, didn't read that the first time. So this is once per day. Your first point here I have addressed in my first post.
using the heal skill unlock and assuming patient is of equal level:
Levels 1-4: base amount healed by deadly wounds is equal to 1/level+WIS (4-9, assuming 16 Wisdom)
Levels 5-9: amount healed is as if target rested for full day, or 2/level (10-18)
Levels 10-14: amount healed is as if target rested for full day with long term care, or 2/level (base full day rest) *2 (long term care effect) for 4/level (40-56)
Levels 15-19: target heals as if resting for three full days, or 2/level (base full day rest) * 3 (# of days rested) for 6/level (90-114)
The disagreement here appears to be over whether the words "recovers hit points as if it had rested for..." under the skill unlocks for the heal skill. Now, if this only meant base healing rate under any/all circumstances, as you are claiming, then why even tie it to resting at all? why no just say that it's 2/lvl, 4/lvl, 6/lvl, and 12/lvl instead? instead, the use of the ability has been explicitly tied to the effects of another rule-set, namely the effects of resting. The healing done is not stated to be equal to the "base" amount of resting healing or the "unmodified" amount, but instead occurs "as if" resting had occurred, implicitly including all effects upon resting healing given no further qualifiers. Were such not the case, then the "as if" clause is entirely useless by RAW in any/all instances. "as if", as a clause, implies both the base function and any relevant modifiers or restrictions, and therefore encompasses modifiers attached to the emulated effect/action. The closest rules analogue I can think of for this is the Mighty Fist of Earth spell, which does damage "as if" a target had been hit with an unarmed strike. Modifiers to said unarmed strike damage are included there, so why not modifiers to rest healing here?
TLDR: "as if", so far as I understand it, emulates the specified effects (here, healing) of another action completely and therefore includes any relevant modifiers/restrictions.
Periapt of Wound Closure, Bandages of Rapid Recovery, and Reviving Rest I can give you, granted that the wording on each is rather ambiguous ("natural rate of healing", "when receiving bed rest""complete bed rest".) Comfort's Cloak, however, I consider to be more clear-cut in its effects, which is simply to increase the healing granted by the rest actions with none of these other riders. Given my interpretation of the "as if" clause above, I'm p. sure this applies.
Anyone care to evaluate a best case scenario for the numbers?
the best case scenario numbers according to your interpretation are 1-4+WIS, 10-18, 40-56, 90-114, and 240 respectively for each tier of the skill unlock.
PS. I have never actually seen a ruling on the exact mechanics of action/effect emulation in pathfinder, so I'm going of of what makes the most logical sense to me here. If the default form of emulation is base/unmodified emulation only then I of course concede this case under protest that such is no fun at all.
Doomed Hero wrote:
I'm playing a ratfolk alchemist in Giantslayer who's getting Psychic Sensitivity for the skill unlocks anyway and am my group's only healer, so I will certainly be doing this for the party's fighter/meatshield.
Sounds like another fun ability is going to be nerfed into nonexistence due to optimization.
This combo requires two feats and two 15kish magical items (three feats if you aren't a rogue), has some pretty glaring weaknesses (time and uses/day, particularly), and scales rather reasonably with level from what I can tell (1.2k hp at level 20 < the shenanigans that wizards can still do), so I don't think its particularly overpowered, especially considering that by the time it hits peak effectiveness most spell-casters can laugh heartily at the notion that mere hit points will save anyone from them.
It is accessible to martials though, so that may mean that it is indeed doomed.
Alright, so I've recently been looking into the treat deadly wounds bit of the heal skill in combination with skill unlocks to see if there's any way to make this thing useful. Unfortunately, it seems that this action has a hard limit on the one-hour duration that it takes to apply such care. The skill unlocks, however, make the healing provided useful, if not ideal, come late levels, enabling healing for 240 hp each use by level 20 (natural rate of 2/level/day, three effective days, x2 for long term care effect). This healing still presents a problem, however: it can only be done after someone has been hurt, and the time required means that it must be away from any fighting where a character could just heal naturally anyway.
Enter the preemptive surgeon. Have you ever been elbow-deep in some yahoo who got himself cut up, thinking "boy, tending to dying people is a hassle. I wish there was some way that I could fix them before they get themselves all messy." Well, dream no longer, because with occult powers there is a way!
For this advanced and new technique of surgery we need the following:
This last one is the real cornerstone of this combination. The Psychic Healer feat, you see, allows you to make a Treat Deadly Wounds check, and add an additional number of temporary hit points to your Meatbag equal to the amount healed. This seems a little underwhelming at first, given that you still have to take an hour to do this, but these temporary hit points last for a further hour, plenty of time to find mortal danger! Know you are going into a fight soon? Lay your Meatbag onto a table and sew him up, before the injuries even happen!
The temporary hit points gained will be as follows at each skill unlock tier, assuming that you beat the DC by at least 5:
Levels 1-4: 1/level+WIS (4-9, assuming 16 Wisdom)
That's a pretty respectable chunk of temporary hit points for your lucky Meatbag! But wait, there's more!
Let's say that your Meatbag is level 10. Said Meatbag buys an otherwise rather unassuming item called Comfort's Cloak. This cloak does many things, but we only care about one effect here: "When taking a full 24 hours of rest, the character regains 5 times his Hit Dice in hit points instead of twice his Hit Dice in hit points." This means that when your Meatbag "recovers hit points and ability damage as if it had rested for a full day" it is multiplied by this effect!
This means that if your Meatbag gets a booboo, your level 10 heal check on said Meatbag will heal them for 10 times their hd, giving them 100 temporary hit points to run around with for the next hour. We can add Bandages of Rapid Recovery to this to make it 140 instead.
Now, 140 temporary hit points for an hour sounds pretty powerful at level ten, but why stop there? Your Meatbag can purchase a Periapt of Wound Closure at the very next level and double that healing rate, bumping the total heal and the total temp. hp to 300! At level 20 this would cap out at a whopping 1200 temporary hp, no small benefit for two feats! Even at level 5 some simple Bandages of Rapid recovery will give them 18 temp hit points to soften up the first blows that they take, or 27 if they are a werebear-kin with the Reviving Rest trait. Treating others not enough? Be a tiefling with the Friendless trait! Want to do this multiple times a day? take the Battlefield Surgeon trait and pump your Meatbag up an additional time!
Healing wounded companions is a practice for a more primitive time, be a modern medical practitioner and heal your patients for wounds they will receive in the future! Unlock the potential of Psychic Surgery™ and leave those silly divine healers in the dust! Remember, their cries of "abomination!", "monster!" and "unethical!" are just envy of your intellect and medical prowess.
PS: I realize that some among those who may read this may say "wait a minute, you can only get as much temporary hp as was missing from your Meatbag in the first place!" To that I say that from my reading of RAW, excess healing may be lost but the healing still technically occurs (just normally without effect) and therefore permits the gain of temporary hit points beyond what missing hit points were regained in the healing process.
PPS: even if that's not the case, just poke your Meatbag with a scalpel for awhile (I hear those Zon-Kuthon types are into that sort of thing), and give him/her/it extra temporary hp equal to their total hp-1.
You are correct. I shall leave in shame.
You could also instead of all of that nonsense either
and then use the Scaled Disciple feat to use a divine spontaneous spellcasting class to qualify for Dragon Disciple!
So you can be a Paladin 4/Oracle 1/DD X or a Paladin 2/Oracle 3/DD X and run around casting divine spells in armor with no worries. Also, if you take the Lore or Nature mysteries you can use your Charisma instead of your Dex for AC. Also, you Oracle's Curse will scale at half rate even when you aren't leveling up as an oracle. You can also still take Eldritch Heritage and a Robe of Arcane Heritage to get some sorcerer bloodline powers or better progression in the Dragon Disciple's bloodline.
PS: you can also qualify as an inquisitor, but they are much more dependent on Wisdom.
It's p. dang great for a rogue archetype if you mix in monkey shine and a level of mouser.
How about the Ectochymist? Trade out all of the Alchemist's bombs for a weapon blanch! Seem a little less than pwoerful? Don't worry, at level six it upgrades to a swift action that still only lasts for int modifier attacks, leaving it still strictly inferior to just getting a ghost touch weapon! Truly genius.
if you get double pistols, a vestigial arm, and a hybridization funnel you could be hitting for a maximum of 14d6 gun+14d6 fire+14d4 acid+28x int in a full attack by level 16 before adding any item effects.
Also, the conductive property is a great choice it lets you add a bomb to every hit for 2 uses of the ability.
Flurrying normally always applies 1x strength no matter how many hands are being used. This feat, however, is a specific exception, so a monk with pounce of some kind could indeed two-handed flurry with a 2x strength bonus. The Unarmed Strikes also get 2x strength, as this is an exception made specifically for the monk in this feat.
1. the highest dpr builds for sap master are alchemists, not rogues. That's not even scratching the highest dpr an alchemist can get (see: level 15 ratfolk grenadier dual-wielding double pistols with kirin strike, conductive weapon ability and alchemical weapon. Up to 14d4+36d6+48xint damage before any magical equipment mods). Heck, you can get MoMS monks swinging in the range of 40ishd8 base weapon damage all the time.
2. 764 damage is only ever achievable in a sap master build if every single attack hits, a very unlikely event for a rogue. Further, those dont really qualify as actual dpr builds as they only function anywhere close to reliably in a complete vacuum of ideal conditions.
3. All of these direct damage builds are still inherently weaker than any half-decent wizard who has access to 5+ level spells. single target damage is neat, but can never match bending reality for defining the terms and results of both combat and narrative. Said wizard can also cast three or four transmutation spells that he learned in his spare time and rival said builds for straight single target dpr if he wishes. he won't though, because direct damage is a weak form of power projection compared to the shenanigans he can pull. He has spells that literally say "you make the save or you are dead" and they aren't even the most powerful ones available.
So no, 764 nonlethal damage in very specific conditions at level 20 is not game breaking, not when by that point wizards don't even have to care that their enemies have hit points. 764 damage is a lot of burst when it happens, yes. But it is comparable to lightly optimized dpr builds for most any class given that the accuracy that it would be hitting at is going to drop it down by at least half, and is pushed out of the running entirely by the sheer unreliability of the bonus damage. Even in ideal conditions, it cant keep up with the highest martial damage outputs, what with fighter (arguably the worst optimization potential among full BaB martial) builds that can do over 900 average damage with a much higher to-hit.
The question then, is this: why is it cool and fine that 9th level spell-casters can rewrite reality and make or break nations daily, or hourly if they choose? Conversely, why is a 20th level rogue, who has based his entire concept and build on being able to kill one dude at a time who he catches unawares and hits perfectly dead to the point of completely neglecting all other important aspects of combat (mobility, defense), utterly unacceptable?
what world do you live in where sneak attack is a powerful martial class feature, even doubled? There's nothing special that a sap master rogue can do (high dpr against 1 target in the first round that doesnt work against anything that notices him first or has uncanny dodge because it only works against flat-footed opponents) that a bomb alchemist, any magus, Rage-Cycling barbarian, cavalier, instant-enemy ranger, warpriest, inquisitor with bane, paladin with smite and/or litany of righteousness, zen archer, gunslinger, blaster caster, anyone with pummeling charge, wizard who decides to be relatively ineffective and turn into a dragon, druid in wild shape, slayer, investigator, or two-handed fighter cant do just as well/better with more consistency. The rogue is weakest in protracted engagements almost categorically, and you want to punish a player for trying to build so that he can occasionally end a fight before his weaknesses show?
If I want to make a street-smart watch detective who fights dirty and takes people alive, and wants to in uncommon, specific situations be able to take a guy out without drawing attention or killing him, it is not your job as a DM to ruin me because you arbitrarily smell a "munchkin". If a player wants to grab the feat because it can net them a decent nova round once every few encounters and it doesn't clash with their character concept, then it is not your job to punish them for building to be good at combat, and even if it were the sap master rogue should be at the back of the line behind every single 9th and 6th level caster in the game.
Power-gaming exists. Power-gamers do not play rogues unless they are very bad at power-gaming.
also re:power attack, the reckless abandon/beast totem barbarian gets -0/+9 at level 9 from power attack on every single attack they make with a two-hander. That is a considerably better bonus than sap master due to its far superior applicability.
Actually, the reach weapon is there because our group is really melee heavy. With my two animal companions, our barbarian, goliath druid, and melee oracle, it's almost TOO melee heavy. To be fair, most of us have ranged options, but the reach weapon is there so that I don't have to be adjacent to my enemies to attack or support attacks against them. It means I can hide behind our beefy guys and companions and still do stuff.
I'll be doing the same thing with a battle herald ill be playing starting next week. The plan is to grab a long spear, stand behind the other fighter, and turn him into a blender.
Well, I didn't want it to encompass the entirety of the conversation, but I did it because I took the Packmaster Archetype AND the Huntmaster Cavalier archetype. Lots of bonus teamwork feats, and it lets me do some really creative things with my Bird and Dog companions, especially things that will let me land multiple combat maneuvers per round at later levels. He's not just a group aid: He's a 3-man dream team.
gotcha. Could switch out cavalier with a Falconer Ranger from thsi point on and take the Horse Master and Boon Companion feats for a 4-man dream team as well.
Well, the Swift Aid feat can bring it down to a swift action and Bodyguard allows you to use an AoO to improve AC, so that should help your action economy. The Golden Legionnaire Prestige class also increases aid another bonuses at levels 4 and 9, while getting some of the aforementioned feats as bonus feats and giving bard-like competence bonuses to those who follow your orders. Also, if your GM lets you take extra traits, you can take Battlefield Disciple and Protective Faith for another +1 to each type of combat aid. There's also the non-halfling version of helpful, though I'm not sure if it'd stack.
Between swift aid, Harrying Partners, Combat Reflexes, and Bodyguard though, you could be quite the potent group-buffer. As far as Arcane Strike Goes, one level of Arcane Duelist Bard will get you the feat and help you qualify for Battle Herald, which can apply the bardic performance bonuses to aid another.
Pathfinder Chronicler also gives a +2 aid another bonus at level 3.
Actually, if you take Combat Style Master (which allows you to start combat in kirin style), you can do the new effect on the first round, as it only requires you to have made the knowledge check and doesn't need a second action.
You can also go Human and take racial heritage twice to count as a kobold and ratfolk, then combine the Gulch Gunner and Bushwacker Gunslinger archetypes, then add in the False Opening feat for an alternate sneaky gunner build. Well, not so much "sneaky" as "shooting you point blank in the face and getting sneak attack anyway."
Bradley Mickle wrote:
I don't think that sneak attack is the source here, but rather the three sources are the climbing, the attack, or the flanking/flat footed status respectively. Sneak attack seems to me to be the measurement by which the abilities progress, but not the source of each. Then again, im not too familiar with the meaning of the term "source" within pathfinder rules, so I'm sure I could be missing something.
If, however, none of these stack, then what is the point of taking the skulking slayer, vexing dodger, or bounty hunter archetypes when their strongest abilities are comparable to or weaker in effectiveness than a single feat that they cannot stack with?
I've got a question as to whether some things stack via RAW.
So, first the level 8 ability of the vexing dodger rogue archetype grants the following rule: "At 8th level, when a vexing dodger attempts a dirty trick maneuver against a creature she's climbing, she gets a bonus on the combat maneuver check equal to the number of sneak attack dice she has."
second, the level 2 ability of the bounty hunter does the following: "At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target. The bounty hunter must declare that he's using this ability before the attack roll is made. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally, but instead of rolling sneak attack damage, the bounty hunter can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against the studied target as a free action, adding 1 to the combat maneuver check for each die of the bounty hunter's sneak attack damage."
third, the feat surprise maneuvers gives the following bonus: " If you have sneak attack, when you attempt a combat maneuver check against a creature that you are flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against your attack, you gain a bonus on the combat maneuver check that's equal to your number of sneak attack dice."
Now, my question is this: Am I correct in thinking that since the vexing dodger ability gives a blanket dirty trick bonus to climbed targets, the bounty hunter ability trades out sneak dice for a bonus, and the surprise maneuvers feat adds a bonus to any combat maneuver made against a flanked or flat footed foe, that they would all stack if all conditions are met, as each provides a different bonus in different but not-mutually-exclusive circumstances? Therefore could a rogue9/slayer3 PC who's climbing and flanking a studied target be able to hit that target and make a free dirty trick maneuver at a +18 bonus?
Hmm, that would enable the Sap Master feat to interact with the Bounty Hunter's dirty trick, as it does damage, but would also delay the scout 's skirmish ability considerably, I'm not sure if that tradeoff is worth it. The idea with mocking dance was to move 5' out with the swift action, and take a 5ft step back in.
Alright, so I've been working on making a detective character for an upcoming Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign to be run by my wife. As the groups resident PC-optimizer I'm looking not to overshadow the rest of the party in building this character, so I've been looking at the rogue class to keep me from going crazy and making it too powerful. My goals in doing so were to see if I could make a more nonlethal-based, dirty-fighting build to fit with the character's personality as a streetwise detective and policeman. Well, I am here to tell you that after scouring the SRD, I have not been disappointed. Be prepared, wall of text ahead.
Now, the rogue as a class suffers from a myriad of problems, but among them are the following:
1. high potential damage per hit from sneak attack, but not enough BaB and no other steroid to help them hit with such attacks
2. situational applicability of sneak attack and resulting huge variance in performance as a combatant
3. generally dependent on TWF to maximize SA output while also not really being able to afford the huge feat tax involved or the cost of enchanting two weapons.
4. generally low AC due to light armor + no room for shields
Now, the biggest problem with the rogue to-hit to me seems to be that they are meant to rely on opponents being denied dexterity bonuses, which is a condition that is only rarely met and which the rogue has few if any tools to bring about. The rogue's damage and attacks are both therefore incredibly dependent on getting foes flat-footed (or effectively flat-footed), which is a difficult prospect indeed for a rogue. Feinting is an old way of achieving for this, but unfortunately suffers from the rogue's poor BaB and lack of steroid. What the rogue needs is a way to do some sort of combat maneuver or similar that will make an opponent vulnerable and actually has a chance of success. Well, there's one other combat maneuver that can cause an opponent to lose their Dex bonus, and that's Dirty Trick. Now this too suffers from the same issue that Feint does on a rogue, namely that they simply don't have any way of making it hit often at all...or do they?
Enter the Skulking Slayer. This is a half-orc archetype for rogues that provides the rogue with a very interesting mechanic, namely the ability to sacrifice their sneak attack damage to instead gain a bonus on steal maneuvers equal to 1&1/2 their SA dice or on, you guessed it, Dirty Trick equal to their SA dice. So there we have a steroid! Of ten at level 20, hmm, not really so great anymore. But wait, there's more! The feat Surprise Maneuver from the Advanced Class Guide lets us add our sneak attack dice as well, and what's more the two stack, as Sneaky Maneuvers lets us add our dice as a bonus whether or not we actually make a sneak attack or roll our dice as part of the attack. So now we have a +20 to Dirty Trick or a +25 to Steal at level 20 or a +10/+12 at level 10, not bad. If we combine this with the Scout Archetype, we could be charging into people and blinding them reliably throughout our leveling.
Alright, so this rogue can now blind people halfway effectively, but he still has the problem of damage. First of all, if this guy is charging people to get his dirty trick bonuses off, then he has no iterative attacks on the charge , and wont get any in any case until level 8 if he's not investing all his feats in two weapon fighting, right? Here to help us solve that issue (and help a bit with the AC) is the Snakebite Striker Brawler. A two level dip in this class will net us another sneak attack die, brawler's flurry, a bonus feat, IUS, and +2 BaB. IUS doesn't seem particularly important here though, as after all as a skulking slayer we will be always wielding a two-hander to take advantage of those d8 sneak attack rolls, right? Well, that's an option, to occupy both hands for some extra strength damage and 1 bonus damage per SA die, orrrrrrrrr we could put something else in that off-hand, like say a Burglar's Buckler, which adds to our low AC and to our dirty tricks. Now in our main hand we equip brass knuckles. Why, you ask? For nonlethal shenanigans, of course! We will get to that later, however, right now we still have the problem of having to move at least ten feet per round before getting our free sneak attacks/dirty tricks, and we need to be full-attacking to really get our damage going post-blind.
There are two ways that I've been able to find to sidestep this problem. The first of these is Jaunt Boots, which lets us move 15ft in a 5ft step 3/day. Not bad, but not great either. What we really want is an unassuming little Combat Performance feat called Mocking Dance, which lets us move an extra five feet as part of a swift action performance check (or our full speed if we want to provoke AoOs), letting us use a swift action each round to activate our scout sneak attack, and if we want to do some further feat investment we can pair it with dramatic display and masterful display for a +2 to all our attacks to boot or heroic display for a free intimidate check.
Now to the reason why we got unarmed strike: nonlethal damage without having to spend another feat, and some AC bonuses to boot! First off, we have brawler's flurry now, so we can use our offhand for a shield, beefing ourselves up a bit. I'm sure that by now everyone knows the value of the sap adept and master feats in really ramping up SA damage, but there are some interesting synergies that Sap Master has in particular with other aspects of the rogue. Now, what Sap Master does is double sneak attack dice when sneak attacking and dealing nonlethal damage. Unfortunately by RAW this doesn't stack with Underhanded Maneuvers or Surprise Manuevers. However, there happens to be a particular two rogue talents that benefit from this: Offensive Defense and Harrow Strike. That's right, you could at level 10 be getting +10 dodge AC for a successful sneak attack, or do 10 random ability damage instead of SA damage. Since we are unarmed, we can also throw knockout artist on top of the sap feats for another +1 damage per SA dice (doubled by sap master), and can also take enforcer for some free intimidate checks that would work well with performance combat feats or the Shatter Defenses feat. In fact, with shatter defenses and a successful intimidate check, we wouldn't even need to dirty trick to get the flat footed condition.
So, after all of this, we will have a rogue who can do the following, provided feat allowance and assuming liberal use of rogue talents to take said feats:
2d6+6 nonlethal SA per 2 levels
Does it make the rogue suddenly the best class ever? Eh, not quite. I like this build though, and look forward to being able to contribute to my party without being overbearing, and while also feeding my inner minmaxer.
Here's a Sample Feat/talent build at level 10:
Detective James Greene
Human Skulking Slayer Scout 8/Snakebite Striker 2
starting stats (20pt buy):
Rogue 1: Racial Heritage: Half-Orc 1d6 SA, Combat Expertise, underhanded maneuvers, Pass for Human
Alright, so I've been looking around at style feats lately, and have come upon a potentially interesting combo, at least if it works the way I am interpreting it to work.
So, the basis for this is the feat False Opening, along with either Snake or Panther Style feats and the Medusa's wrath feat. The Idea qould be that a monk would step into a threatened square, and FoB an adjacent enemy with a combination of shuriken and unarmed strikes, using False Opening to intentionally provoke an attack of opportunity. If a given opponent takes said attack, this would trigger Snake Fang or Panther Style, giving the monk 1-2 retaliatory unarmed strikes depending on said monk's feats. These retaliatory strikes in combination with the dex-depriving of False Opening would in turn trigger Medusa's Wrath, allowing a further two attacks for a total of your full attack combo + 3-4 extra at highest BaB. Heavy feat requirements but a neat combo, imo, and one that would get even crazier if combined with the ninja class for SA damage and flurry of stars. Such would give a total of two bonus shuriken attacks and between 3 and 4 bonus unarmed attacks in a turn, all at highest BaB, targeting flat footed AC, and applying sneak attack damage.
Entirely dependent on the DM not being a jerk and having monsters just "happen" to not take said attack of opportunity, of course. So, is there any rule minutae that I am missing that would prevent this from actually working?
Im wondering if you folks have considered a druid 4/ranger x as an alternative to this? You could use Shapeshifting Hunter to get full wildshape progression, and select the natural weapons combat style while also swapping out ranger class features for stuff like warpriest blessings, animal focus, or barbarian rage, all with a 19 BAB. With a feat like Boon Companion you could also have a full progression AC. Alternatively to the Natural Attack style, you could go two-weapon fighting for an AoMF unarmed/NA build with more attacks than a flurrying monk would get. On top of all of this, the ranger can make much more use of a high wisdom score than a brawler could, and would be on par with a monk as far as stat synergy. You'd be giving up a lot of spell levels, to be sure, but would get +4 BAB, a slew of bonus feats, and favored enemy/terrain/animal focus/rage/ranger shapeshifting in return.
As a third option, druid 4/monk 1/ranger 13 might be another good choice.
I was thinking it'd be STR=INT>CON>WIS>DEX>CHA. They do in fact use dex for ranged to hit, so it would suffer a bit in that regard.
Kensai does indeed work well for this too, given their eventual Int bonus to practically everything. It's not quite the buff it could be on a Kensai though, given that you'd lose Arcane Strike.
Who on earth with an int-focused build by level 9 only has 16 Int? Personally I'd want at elast 20 by that point, prefferably 24, for a bonus damage of 30 or 42. The damage will fo course be sub-par at lwo intelligence levels and isnt really worth it if you only have 14 int, but scales incredibly well with the attribute and if you break 26 Int will be adding very large chunks of damage to a charge. It's true that there is quite a feat tax, but the benefits are far more than mere damage, being knowledge of monster weaknesses, save bonuses, and positioning bonuses, all quite important to a mounted martial. The Student of War is a Prestige class that can, among other abilities, replace Dex with Int for AC and make a knowledge check as a move action to get bonuses to attack/damage.
I've seen throughout these past few months a few assorted threads on this forum about the kirin style feat chain and its uses, and beyond a Focused Shot Alchemist who throws one bomb for 4x his Intelligence per round or the Duelist who gets slightly more damage sometimes nobody seems to have been able to come up with much. I've been thinking how to optimise these feats however, and may have come up with an excellent application: The Charger.
More specifically, I am referring to the mounted lance-charger, be it a ranger, fighter, or cavalier (though fighter would definitely be easiest given the heavy feat requirements) in combination with the Combat Style Master feat. The problems with the Kirin feats are as follows: two swift actions to start up, kirin strike only works on one attack, and kirin path is only useful if you want to keep distance. I am of the opinion that a lance-charging mounted combatant with the Combat Style Master feat is able to sidestep these problems rather elegantly.
First, the CSM feat allows us to start any combat with kirin style already activated. While this doesnt negate the second swift action requirement, we can at least do something useful in that time by getting into position for a charge, firing off some shots with a bow, or making other identify checks with the lore warden or student of war class features. While the action tax isn't entirely eliminated, it is cut in half, and we can activate another feat such as janni style to help us a bit more with the upcoming charge.
Second, the issue with the restriction of Kirin Strike to one attack. Well, when lance charging we only really have one anyway. And look at that, Kirin Strike is added after the hit as a flat bonus to damage, which if I am correct means that it is applied to the damage doubling/tripling from the lance. This means that a lancer with spirited charge could be adding 6x his intelligence to his charges, which is no small modifier, and an even better bonus than he gets from strength.
Third, Kirin Path. One of the most unfortunate things that can happen to a lancer in my experience is being backed into a corner by an enemy or group of enemies. Kirin Path allows us to avoid this problem, moving behind any enemy that tries to box us in, ensuring that no matter how they advance we will always end up on the side of our enemy that allows us the most room to move our mount and set up further charges.
These facts together on top of the nice save bonuses that kirin style provides already make me believe that, at least in this case of a mounted combatant with enough of a feat progression, kirin style can be far better than its mediocre reputation, and may in fact when combined with such things as the Student of War prestige class make an intelligence-focused fighter not only possible, but a quite effective combatant, and I for one am quite looking forward to playing a scholar-knight in a campaign I'll be starting next week, assuming of course that this doesnt get the crane-style nerfbat because "style feats arent allowed to be good on non-monks" or "intelligence isnt allowed on martials" or something.
So im looking to make a character for an upcoming Pathfinder campaign, and have up to this point generally played LG or LN nobility types. I'd like to mix this up a bit and make a bit of an antithesis to these.
Enter the character concept: A yeoman farmer and war veteran of Brevoy who has struggled under the bullying and domineering of nearby lords and knights, and has gotten ahold of some books of Galtian philosophy. Now having stirred his resentment into outright hatred of all aristocracy, he desires to overthrow feudal structures and exterminate nobility both as people and as an insitution. The planned alignment is CN, as he's very against the prevailing political order of the land, resents the law, and while he has lofty ideals of equality lets his hatred of nobles rule him too much to be good. So, my question is, how do I mechanically construct this guy in a way to fit the concept as well as possible?
The most obvious choices are of course fighter or ranger, but these seem to lack the sort of rabble-rousing leadership/symbol capabilities that im looking for, at least so far as given class features. Therefore, I'm looking to go for a cavalier, and am particularly interested in the Order of the Land.
My question, then, is what sort of archetype would fit both thematically and be effective in combat, or if another class would be better suited in general. Right now im waffling between a ranged-focused luring cavalier and a vanilla or huntmaster cavalier focused on the improvised weapon ablities of order of the land with either a pitchfork or a combat scabbard, depending on DM ruling regarding enchanting improvised weapons. It should be noted that I don't want to be a "knight in shining armor" type, so i'd prefer not to focus on charging and whatnot. Additionally, relevant feats and traits that would strengthen this build/concept would be welcome.
You might want to read further, for this pretense is first never fully followed as he murders only those imprisoned (but for one exception), acting for the good of no-one but his own ego, and then abandons such motives entirely and attempts to set himself up as shadow-dictator of the world.
I'll give the whole thing points for trying to portray the dilemma of a utilitarian approach to morality, but it tipped its hand far too early and corrupted the main vessel of it's own ethical experiment incredibly quickly.
Funky Badger wrote:
This is a flawed example, for it assumes that the happiness of a person is equal in value to the life of another in the eyes of a utilitarian. you must remember that different factors possess different values as deigned by the utilitarian making judgement, and it would be nigh-impossible to justify equating making one person, or even hundreds of people, happy with utterly ending the life of another. This is why most utilitarians, when questioned, would proclaim the Khmer Rouge to be evil, as well as any similar historical examples of regimes/dictators exterminating minorities to enrich/"purify"/etc. the remainder.
I do agree with others in this thread however, that it is vitally important to at least have a rough sketch of the hierarchy of said individual's value system, and any "trump" values that they may have.
Wind Chime wrote:
I was going with the arbitrary labels and D&D absolutist morality where certain evil acts are evil regardless of context. Take the example of stopping infections spreading by killing or ghettoizing plague victims, those victims are innocent and therefor in D&D morality killing them is wrong even if does stop the spread of plague. Similarly assassinating warmongering leaders or corrupt officials that are legally selected will always be chaotic.
Ah, i see. Probably starting LN then, given the inflexible nature of mechanical ethics in pathfinder, and probably undergoing numerous alignment changes to any of the possible alignments over the course of a campaign, as he/she acts for the greater good and gets slapped with various good/evil/chaotic/lawful labels on each act.
I am now imagining a utilitarian BBEG rebelling against the gods for creating and enforcing an absolutist system of moral judgement that declares him to be evil simply because he is too consequentialist for them.
I am flabbergasted at the prevailing attitude in this thread that a utilitarian approach to ethics is by nature impossible to be good. The ethical debate between teleology and deontology is by no means finished, and to presume that a consequentialist approach to morality and ethics is by its nature incapable of being righteous or good is both arrogant and narrow-minded.
OP, it could run the gamut, though it depends on how faithfully the character in question follows this approach. If he/she is willing to do whatever is best for the most in every situation regardless of the effect to themselves then I'd say likely NG, possibly LG. If his approach is clouded or corrupted by bias or imperfect application, or if he uses it simply as an excuse rather than a motive force, then the other alignments are all possible.
Honorable Goblin wrote:
He is certainly altruistic in his approach; he gives himself no more value than anyone else, and is willing to do what he believes to benefit the world the most regardless of his own reputation, image, or well-being, nor that of any individual that he may have affection for. He does what he feels is best, denying himself the luxuries of acting on sympathy or emotion, and in doing so arguably sacrifices far more for the sake of his moral code than anyone who simply lets benevolent whimsy direct their actions.
He didn't like laws because they applied constrictions that interfered with the greatest benefit to the most people and he was neutral because he was not motivated by good or evil, but instead by pragmatism.
But he WAS motivated by good, that is the entire point, that he worked toward the good of the world. What is "good" and what is "nice" are not and have never been synonymous, just as "terrible" actions and "evil" actions are likewise not synonyms.
Now such a character would likely commit evil acts he would also likely commit good acts.
How exactly would be operating for the good of everyone be an evil act, unless we are speaking of such things as the arbitrary "always evil" labels on stuff like raising undead?