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4,468 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Officially, you are correct, OP.

But the gun rules are stupid and broken and shouldn't target touch AC...period. So if I were in your group, I'd be backing up the other guy. Of course, I don't play by strict RAW when it's dumb.

meibellum wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Your houserules are terrible, fumble rules are terrible, yours are even more penalizing than the typical ones. I have nothing nice to say about your ideas, and in fact am exercising quite a bit of restraint to be as cordial as I'm being towards you.
Looking to the left of the submit post button will lead to the most important rule...

Isn't subtly calling someone a jerk....a jerk-y thing to do?

I was criticizing the OP's ideas, not the OP as a person, after the OP asked what people thought of his ideas. But please, continue soapboxing from your hypocritical moral high ground.

Natural Spell is the simplest and best way.

There's also more tedious methods that generally involve getting rid of all the components (Eschew Materials, the trait to get a tattoo as your divine focus...not sure if that works in wildshape..., Silent Spell, Still Spell) and/or using the Wild Speech feat (lets you speak while wildshaped).

Note that once you get elemental forms you'll be able to do verbal and somatic components again, and the materials/foci can manipulated as long as they don't get melded into the form.

Yeah, I'm fine with auto-success/failure for attacks and saves. The game already grows in power exponentially enough that a band of goblins is a speed bump to a party just 5 levels above the party for whom they're a dire challenge. No need to remove the last safeguard "giant mob of mooks" have left to at least, hypothetically, be dangerous en masse.

But fumbles are stupid and wrong.

MachOneGames wrote:

Dual-cursed Oracle is a good class to dip in for 7 or 8 levels. You can pick four good revelations and then get out to find a prestige class to finish off with: Nature's Warden, Divine Scion.

I wish there was a better selection of revelations too. If there were it would be a decent class to stay in. But you are 100% on point. It is not that great of a class to stick around in.

Or you could just use feats and items to gain more revelations.

In any case, I think if anything D-C Oracle sucks the most upfront. You lose the bonus class skills. You get hit with another curse that will never get better. You lose your normal 1st level bonus spell known for one that is likely worse (or the one you lost isn't normally an oracle spell). You gain no extra goodies for all of this, you even have to wait a few levels for your first bonus revelation slot. The *only* thing you get for all that sacrifice at level 1-2 is the ability to take the Misfortune revelation with your normal revelation slot or a feat. That is all you "get."

Detect Magic wrote:
Worth noting: telepathy is a one way communication, as far as I can tell, not a mind-meld.

It is two-way. There was a whole thread on this topic here like last year, iirc.

It can't work as described if it were only one-way.

Time has pretty terrible low level spells and a bit too many high cost / extremely uncommonly used spells, but that's its only weakness. The class skills are good, and it has a many and varied great revelations. In rough order of the best ones to the worst ones:

Temporal Celerity: Basically guarantees you'll be one of the first to act. Winning initiative is winning the fight.

Time Sight: It's the three best high level divination spells (including True Seeing, which normally has a high cost to cast) all in one revelation! What's not to love?

Rewind Time: Rerolling d20's is always a nice power to have, and this gets a few uses/day.

Time Hop: Su Teleport means instant grapple escape, and move action and lack of "this works like Dim Door" text means you can even get a spell off after using it! (unlike Sudden Shift of Wizards). Plus countless other situational uses like getting to the other side of a gate to open it for the party (or just take them with you if you can).

Time Flicker: Getting un-dispellable Blur and Blink as defensive options is a nice boon.

Speed or Slow Time: Haste is one of the best spell effects, and not on the Oracle list (Blessing of Fervor is worse for melee and better for casters).

Knowledge of Ages: Reroll a knowledge and add charisma on top of int, with cha uses/day. Practically makes you a "Lore Oracle," too.

Erase from Time: It's similar to Time Hop, one of the best psionic powers (not the revelation above). Divide and conquer enemies by sending one away for a bit, or use it an ally to get them out of danger (useful to save a defenseless NPC in an "escort mission" and such) or simply to buy some time to finish a fight and get the spell they need to cure some rapidly afflicting condition ready (since it pauses time for the target). Shame it's only 2/day and doesn't work on objects, though.

Aging Touch: Not that great, but useful vs. constructs and decent enough in most situations to justify picking it up...eventually.

Momentary Glimpse: It's a standard for a small bonus for one round. But it's still useful occasionally if you get a surprise or prep round before combat starts. I wouldn't take it, but I'm sure other people would.

...Did you notice how Time doesn't even actually have any outright bad revelations (except maybe Momentary Glimpse)? It's hard to honestly say that about any other mystery. And it's not like it avoids bad options be being completely mediocre. The first several listed are among the best revelations of ANY mystery.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, we have moved on to RAI?

RAI: Dual-Cursed is a horrible archetype that asks you to give up a LOT just to get 2 additional revelation slots (I've yet to find a mystery w/ enough good revelations to carry it to 20 w/o running out of ones you actually want yet) and a 2nd curse which never improves (when curses are largely overwhelming and BY DESIGN tend to be a raw deal at 1st level, if anything). ...And these two new revelation options. Of which, Fortune is not that impressive and forces you to endure the suck for 4 levels before giving you the payoff. Misfortune being as good as it is, is literally the only reason most people even consider Dual-Cursed in the first place. It needs to stay as it is.

Only if you buff it as you suggest.

They didn't want to do that, as it's already quite powerful. You wouldn't be throwing such a fit about it working on the Oracle 1/day if it weren't already so powerful, and yet you think they'd give it additional self-only uses for free at 5th level on top of using it 1/day on all enemies and allies?

Time is one of the best ones, and Battle is very good for a melee-oriented Oracle...

As for worst... The only reason Heavens isn't the worst is because of the revelation that makes Color Spray remain insta-death through at least 8th level. Life is bad just by covering a bad specialty, though adding little to make it more interesting / less annoying certainly doesn't help. It just seems so inferior to a Restoration domain cleric, to boot. Outer Rifts also seems to have few redeeming qualities.... it gets Telepathy ~4 levels after an Improved Familiar could've gotten it and at level 15 it can do an AoE stun/stagger 2/day on foes not immune to fire (again, this is level 15+). That's...about it.
I'm not saying it's a terrible mystery, but Lore has got to be the most over-rated one.

N N 959 wrote:

The existence of Fortune spell which does the exact same thing strongly implies that Misfortune does not work on the caster.

Guess what...if Misfortune works that way, you wouldn't need to create Fortune. You'd say that at 5th level, the caster can use Misfortune on herself x/day. Hello?

Except Fortune still has a purpose, because Misfortune only works on each creature once/day. So you take fortune to benefit yourself even more often each day.

I guess they could've combined the two together; but they wanted to make it cost two revelations. Possibly because it's a potent set of abilities. *shrug*

Ascalaphus wrote:
It's not that people come up with fumble rules just to be mean. Pretty much every time the intent was noble - make things more exciting, cause funny situations. Nothing wrong with the intent.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Ascalaphus wrote:
The problem is coming up with a fair way to execute it.

There is no fair way to execute it. It is inherently unfair. All you can do is make just how unfair it is more or less noticeable by reducing the frequency it comes up and/or watering down the bad effects. But all that does is hide the badness, it doesn't actually solve it.

I'd rather have the normal Cavalier capstone, crits on a 20/x3 weapon are too unreliable, even with keen or Imp. Crit. If you have an ally with Butterfly's Sting (and a 15-20 crit range with a good amount of attacks), Gendarme capstone becomes much better, though.

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Your houserules are terrible, fumble rules are terrible, yours are even more penalizing than the typical ones. I have nothing nice to say about your ideas, and in fact am exercising quite a bit of restraint to be as cordial as I'm being towards you.

Well, Mystic Past Life *is* stupidly powerful. But it's stupidly powerful when it's used as a Wizard, Druid, Cleric, etc... to plunder the Bard, Inquisitor, Summoner, etc... lists. Much less so in the reverse.

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Yes, they stack. Pathfinder has rules for stacking multipliers. Basically, for all multipliers after the first one, you subtract 1 from the multiplier and add it to the base one. No matter what order you do it in, it will come out the same, as long as all multipliers are greater than 1, as they should be....

Example: Multipliers of 1.5x, 2x, and 3x all apply to your damage roll.

1.5 +1 (2-1) +2 (3-1) = 4.5x
0.5 (1.5-1) +2 + 2 (3-1) = 4.5x
0.5 (1.5-1) +1 (2-1) + 3 = 4.5x

No matter how you do it, it comes out to 4.5x damage.

Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
What book is that from, I don't remember that one.

It's from PF 10: A History of Ashes. Which, despite being a paizo product, is technically for 3.5E D&D. But...PF is supposed to be compatible with 3E, and it is a paizo product. Hence why I said, "if you can." Getting it allowed can be tough depending on how strict or open your DM is.

Being a Samsaran for Mystic Past Life would be a big help in expanding your spell list to handle more of a caster role. Druid spell list is probably your best bet for nabbing some battlefield control spells and such.

You can use the solo teamwork feats for Lookout, Stealth Synergy (or whatever it's called), and Tandem Trip to be a good scout and halfway-decent tripper. Caves subdomain as your domain choice will further help with scouting/sneaking in dungeon environments.

I don't think there's much you can translate the judgements into other roles with, other than more attack bonus for tripping...

You can make a high wisdom "casting focused" Inquisitor, you'll just be really subpar, it's not what the class is designed for. If you do so, it definitely helps to get a weapon with the Guided property if you can. It's really dumb that you're practically a cleric but still need to dip cleric to qualify for Guided Hand feat, but that's how it is.... So ask for a guided weapon.

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DrDeth wrote:
PF or even D&D is not a PvP game. So, I can't understand why you want to do this in the first place.

Because it's fun once in a while?

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They nerfed it. It used to be 10 + Barb level + Cha mod, so it was useful for low cha dippers and horribad for true barbarians.

Now it is 10 + 1/2 barb level + Con mod and thus horrible for everyone.

As for the dip.... NEVER as a caster, that's just dumb. For an archer, maybe. But that's the *only* useful class feature you're getting for those two levels, pretty much. For a melee character...full attacks can be hard to come by. Even if you do have pounce, the penalties to attack and AC don't seem worth it if the foe can fight back. Archers don't have to worry about the foe hitting back as much, but melee does.

For casters: Hell no!
For archers: Maybe; appeal grows stronger the more levels you have to work with.
Melee: Unlikely to be worth it.

Claxon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

after all the stuff about rogues on these forums, I keep reading the title of this thread as

help me kick this puppy
help me push this old man down some stairs
help me take some candy from a baby

I too keep thinking...wait, you have to try? What are you doing wrong?

And apprently that answer is: the rogue isn't following the rules.

Well, more specifically, not following PF rules. There's a lot of reasons rogue got horribly nerfed from 3E (along with falling behind other classes, which is like a nerf). One of them is not being able to sneak attack with flasks.

But yeah, I'm not terribly motivated to help someone beat up one of the worst classes in the game.

Drake Brimstone wrote:
Fly Skill wrote:
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).

So, if I buy a Glider (Ultimate Combat p187) would I then be allowed to take ranks in fly?

It is really annoying having the restriction on a low Int character that won't be getting wings until level 10 or 11. I can't exactly start dumping all my skill points in fly just as soon as I get the wings to get it up quickly when I'm only getting 1 or 2 points a level.

Pathfinder really hates its mundanes. It was bad enough in 3E relying on the easily dispellable CL 5 or whatever winged boots. Then PF comes along and adds skill check requirements and tells the non-casters, "oh sorry, you can't train that at all until you have the item....maybe....15 min. per day isn't much practice time."

Umbranus wrote:
Blackstorm wrote:

Just to point it out:


6thlvl-----------combat trick, deadly aim

8thlvl-----------combat trick, Quick draw
He cannot select a rogue talent more than once, unless otherwise specified. This and the splash sneak attack makes his build illegal. Oh, and if he cast darkness, he cannot see throught.
Swashbuckler may take combat trick twice.

Also, Rogues can take Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) on top of their combat trick by RAW, while Ninjas cannot do the reverse. It's one of the many odd things that one class can do but the other cannot (like how ninja can get advanced talents but rogue can't get the master tricks).

Scrogz wrote:
How does the nemesis escape to contiue to be a nemesis without escapability?

And this is why I'd be hesitant to nerf or ban teleportation spells, I have enough trouble getting what I hope to be a recurring villain out alive as it is. Not that there aren't other ways. If you left Dim Door and such alone (as I suggested before), that can give you a pretty good head start / hiding place to run away from or then go for the (nerfed to have a multi-round cast time) actual long range teleport.

Word of Recall should really serve the purpose of the escape spell, though. I never understood why it was higher level than the teleports and restricted to only the divine casters. It exists solely to flee back home, it's much less abusive than actual teleport. I would NOT apply any of my suggested nerfs to WoR, and would even consider lowering its spell level and making it available on other lists.

First of all, there is basically two types of teleporting.

1) "Tactical" teleporting: short ranged and lower level, almost always used in combat and often simply for better positioning or to escape being surrounded. Dim Door, and such.

2) Long distance teleporting used to travel across the world in short or no time at all.

I don't think there's much wrong with 1, but 2 can be pretty powerful and definitely a game-changer. I wouldn't ban the spells, though. I would give them:

a) A cost to cast (not too high, just enough to make it not something you might prep every single day)
b) Perhaps bump up their spell levels a bit to delay access, and (most importantly)...
c) Institute a "lag time" on both ends of the travel.
On the leaving side, boost the cast times up to a few rounds to make it completely worthless to use to escape from combat. On the arriving side, have the act of materializing in the new location take a few rounds (about 2, I guess), during which anyone in the vicinity can see and attack the teleporters while they are incapable of acting, fighting back, and such.

Combined with the uncertainties of teleporting blindly into a place you've never been, the last change largely neuters the whole "teleport in all buffed up, kill everyone, teleport out" thing completely. And again, I re-iterate, these changes would only be for "type 2" teleportation. Applying these, especially the lag time concept, to tactical teleportation would make those spells utterly useless.

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It removes the condition. Full stop. Ditto for the Paladin mercy to remove fatigue.

For an example of something that only temporarily suppresses or "cures" fatigue, see the Bard spell Invigorate.

Turkina_B wrote:
Also, would I be correct in thinking you cannot do a 5' step whilst flying with the fly spell as it says "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet" but does not say you get a listed fly speed?

No, you would be incorrect. You have a listed fly speed, thanks to the fly spell. It is 60 ft.

Would you tell the person with the fly spell he can never move more than 60 ft flying in a turn (say, with a double move) because the spell "only says you can fly at a speed of 60 ft"? Would you assume they mean 60 ft in a round as a hard cap? If you're going to be so insanely literal, speed is a distance over time, and they never specify the time interval. For all we know, it could be 60 ft over a minute! I mean, it's just so unclear, what's a person to do?!

....Use common freaking sense. That's what.

prototype00 wrote:

I've never been super impressed with the monk dip into spellcaster. I mean, heck if you want to be a spellcaster, you're losing the point of being a monk, which is punching people through walls.

That druid, for example, strong jaw, huge size, monk's belt so you're hitting like a level 6 monk still only nets you 4d8 unarmed strike at best (not bad, but I still say 12d8 is the gold standard).

*heck, at least take two more levels of monk for monastic legacy, so you can deal 8d8 points of damage (as a huge, strong jawed, 16th level monk), and still cast 9th level spells, with 3 monk levels, master of many styles is pretty good as well, 2 free style feats*

The synthesist I'm not even going to countenance, as it is worse at unarmed fighting than the druid. No stat synergy at all.


The OP specified a "monk build," so I thought I had to take a level in the class for it to count. And the idea with a monk 1 / something 19 is to get a ton of natural attacks and pounce, so you can full unarmed + 2ndary naturals every round. You focus too much on unarmed base damage, it's more about the dakka ("rate of fire", so to speak).

That said, MoMS* Monk 1 is a decent dip, albeit a weaker option than staying straight class, for a druid. As can be said of anything that loses a CL. get wis to AC, you get to skip straight to Snake Fang if you do your dip intelligently and get a 2nd style later to stack with it, and stunning fist. If you plan to take the Feather (Animal) subdomain and Boon Companion anyway, you have a spare lost druid level to make up for anyway, so only casting and wildshape falls a level behind (and wildshape has diminishing returns past level 8 and stops improving completely at 12 anyway). Any levels beyond Monk 1 offer much less returns for an exponentially steeper cost (more lost CL, "quadratic wizards" and all that).
*Since flurry is useless. You can unarmed TWF + naturals. But not flurry...

And how is Synthesist not synergistic? It literally -- right from level 1 -- DOES NOT CARE about Str or Dex, and doesn't need much Con, either. You want high Cha, beyond that it's largely personal preference. A lot go high int, but there's nothing wrong with high wis instead. You get pounce and natural attacks right from level 1 to combine with unarmed, you get wis to AC to cover not being able to wear's about as good a combo as the monk/druid was. Better initially, a bit weaker later on.

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Monk 1 / Synthesist Summoner 19

Or alternatively,

Monk 1 / Druid 19.

Backstory: Johnny really wanted to be a badass martial artist growing up and quit school to enroll in a dojo at age 12. By age 13, even at his still young age he realized how pathetic and worthless monks are in a fight and [was seduced to the dark arts of summoning] / [went to go be a hippy in a druid grove] so that he could actually beat stuff up unarmed.

Robert A Matthews wrote:
I don't see anything in the description of charge that says you have to make the attack at the end of your movement. It merely says you must move to the closest space from which you can attack your target, it does not say you have to stop there. So your moving mount would not stop you from making an attack as long as you make it from the closest possible space per the rules.

I thought that stopping and then making the attack was implied. Isn't that the whole point of Ride-by Attack, to continue to move after making the charge attack? And the closest space that you can attack from will likely be different for the rider and his mount, also causing an issue.

@Mojorat: I was not aware of that rule. I thought the rider counts as occupying all the spaces his mount does, so he retains the "donut hole" where he can't attack with his reach weapon. If what you say is true, mounted is the best thing ever for reach; you have no close space you can't attack but retain the long reach. That just...doesn't sound right.

Robert A Matthews wrote:
If you want a really funny broken thing about charging characters check this out: You can ready a brace weapon against a charge as soon as the charging character gets within 10 feet you take your readied action then 5 foot step forward so you are 5 feet away and they can't attack you with their reach weapon. Really cheesy I know, but technically legal.

That's funny, but certainly not broken. I do stuff like that all the time, with or without brace. In order for the "cheese" to work, you have to go before the foe AND have him play right into your readied action script. It's not cheese, it's tactics. Sometimes rushing in full offense is a dumb move, shocking I know. Charge is very powerful especially with pounce, it should have some countermeasures against it. The game rewards offense-mindedness plenty, it's nice once in a while for a patient, defensive strategy to be useful. I go first, ready to step inside hothead's reach and stab him. Hothead charges, I do as I prepared to, he's hurt and surprised and loses his turn. Next round, oh look at that! My ready set my init to juuuuuust before his. I get a full attack on his sorry -2 charge penalty to AC'd ass. :D

I could see an issue where you're using a lance and thus have greater reach than the mount. A charge is supposed to involve an attack at the end of it. But, if the mount stops 10 ft away so you can attack, it can't attack so it wasn't a valid charge. But if it closes to 5're supposed to deliver the attack at the end of the charge, so you shouldn't be moving afterwards. Ride-by Attack probably fixes this issue, but not *every* lance-using (or other reach weapon-using) mounted charger will have that feat.

Perhaps that would cause a problem? I don't know, in any case sounds like the stupidity of pure 100% RAW that I avoid anyway.

Yeah, you seem to basically have it right. Imp. Precise Shot is a great feat, it removes a lot of annoyances, which is why rangers and zen archers getting it 5 levels early is so nice.

If you allow D&D 3E rules material, note that the Magic Item Compendium has a 2500 gp face slot item, the Goggles of Foefinding, which eliminates any cover bonuses (other than total cover) a target may have. A very affordable and handy purchase for any archer or reach weapon user. 3E also had a feat, Precise Swing, that eliminated the soft cover bonus foes got when you used a reach weapon (but didn't benefit ranged attacking).

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

How it works:

You initiate the WWA, do not attack the enemy closest to you (or one of them, if two or more are equally close), and then take a move action, attacking every other enemy you come within reach of once.

It's a decent combo, still not amazing for its level and the massive amount of feats required, and you're still better off focus firing on each enemy until they drop than spreading out the damage. But certainly nifty. Sort of like the 3E Dervish prestige class's dervish dance + WWA, I loved that combo.

Each attack is a separate opportunity, as LK said. Also check out Come and Get Me rage power, which works similarly. If a full attack was only "one opportunity," it wouldn't actually work: "...every attack against the barbarian provokes an attack of opportunity from her, which is resolved prior to resolving each enemy attack."

Snake Fang is the same way, just worded differently (because RPG designers never seem to use identical wording for anything ;-) ). Each attack is a provoking opportunity.

Wow, people sure like to have it both ways.

1: "We should use strict RAW and its insane declaration that adding options and making no actual changes counts as altering the class feature if it says it modifies the existing feature!"

2: "You don't think the intent was just to keep people from giving up something twice, or 'making a check your ass can't cash,' so to speak?"

1: "No! If it says it modifies the class feature, it won't stack! Even if it's just adding stuff!"

2: "Well, Beastmorph DOES NOT say it modifies mutagen. By RAW. Most sacred and holy RAW."

1: "Well...I really don't think that was the intent. We should use RAI."

2: "You mean that it's not replacing anything, so it should be cool?"

1: "No! That they totally meant to have that line in there."

*MASSIVE eyeroll and facepalm*

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Synthesist with all evolution point on ability increase and size + scroll of form of dragon III = 70 str

Edit: synthesist 18 barb 1 alch 1

I assume you're including Enlarge Person applied and Eldritch Heritage for the Orc bloodline. But yeah, I would expect Synthesist, especially a Half-Elf one, to sport the highest end-game strength.

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I think it stacks, by RAW.

Another more general question related to this is: Does Beastmorph affect a) the mutagen brewed, or b) the Alchemist's own physiology?

That is...
If a) is true, then he can hand one of his mutagens off to another alchemist or to his tumor familiar (or share it with the Improved Share Spells feat) and they will get the beastmorph benefits.
If b) is true, then ANY mutagen the beastmorph alchemist consumes should confer the benefits, such as the mutagens of other alchemists who are not beastmorphs.

It has to be one of those two. Which one it is...I have no idea.

Yeah, my thoughts were a bit disjointed, but I did note Control Winds, too. If you have the chance to use it, and don't have to worry about collateral damage, it's great.

As I said, Druids are the kings of destroying large groups of mundanes, no one does it better. Of course, they're also the worst caster for fighting other casters (severely lacking critical abjurations or getting them late, less divinations, less protective-against-spells buffs, etc...). But they're so good vs. noncasters, between spells, the meat shield err....animal friend, and the ability to turn into a fighter themselves while spontaneously bringing in more dumb brutes to the fray. They're like the ultimate bully class. They're strongest vs. the weakest characters and weakest vs. the strongest ones.

(Wizard is the best at keeping safe from angry mobs with pitchforks; Druid's just the best at utterly destroying them)

You'd want a lot of giant area battlefield control spells. Druids are the best at this, with spike stones, spike growth, and plant growth. (seriously, if they're low level and on the ground, the spike spells basically halt the force in its tracks, the d4 or d8 damage every 5 ft WILL kill them dead) Heck, even 1st level entangle has twice the radius most mid level wizard spells have. Dazing Spell + Stone Call is a great way to daze lock a bunch of soldiers if they're not spread out.

Considering a medium creature can only be surrounded by 8 foes at most at a time (barring reach weapons) and the kiting the party is likely to utilize anyway, defense vs. ranged attacks is paramount, the ideal being Fickle Winds on the party to go w/ everyone's flight.

Hit and Run does also work, of course. Especially if the party can teleport and the enemy can't.

Other tactics could include plopping a symbol of insanity in the middle of the army, or unleashing some shadows, wraiths, or other population-growing incorporeal undead. Depending on how much time the party has, Control Winds or other weather spells could be cast beforehand to just plain unleash a tornado on the enemy army.

Sorc and ESPECIALLY cleric aren't supposed to be skilled classes. Having to make painful choices is the entire POINT. Really, wizards aren't either, it just ends up being that way due to Int.

Even then, if it weren't for PF's changes to class skills, wizard wouldn't be considered a "skill monkey." Perhaps a "pokedex," but not a skill monkey. Because prior to PF, investing cross-class was brutally painful.

And you don't have to max ranks in every skill. A lot of skill DCs peter out eventually so you *can* broaden out a bit.

I would never just give everyone 4+. It further cheapens the supposed benefit of "skilled" classes like rogue, and since the skills are so uneven in power (perception is king of the hill, UMD is up there, etc...), giving a slightly higher minimum is a straight up power-up to those classes, they can just take all the win skills. While as buffing rogue to say...12+int wouldn't power them up much at all, since all the good skills are taken after the first half dozen skill points anyway. It'd just broaden them very, very slightly.

Witches/wizards aren't being gimped. They're considered powerful classes and they're not getting anything extra. ...They don't need it.

Yeah. Clerics and Sorcerers are powerful already, too. Screw them.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think the fighter needs 4 skills points. Actually I think no class should have a base of 2 skill points.
I'm quite fine with the primary spellcasters who currently have only a base of 2 staying that way.

I prefer giving 4+ to all classes that don't use Int as a casting stat. Clerics and Sorcerers need those skill points too.

Not giving them to Witches and Wizards is a bit contrived but it balances nicely.

Yeah I've always found it a bit odd that Druids (and later Oracles) got 4+int while Sorcerers and Clerics get 2+int

No, Clerics really don't need it, nor do Sorcs. And intentionally gimping the int-casters on skill points but boosting all the others just because "they'll have a bunch of skill points anyway" is just stupid. Shall we give the wizard a bonus on social skills? Don't they need the help to make up for not prioritizing charisma? *eyeroll*

Druids having 4+ is mainly due to them being expected to have some nature /scouting abilities, as reflected by their expanded class skills. I have no idea why Oracles have 4+, I guess some of the relevations lead to more of a semi-skill monkey than others.

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Gunsmith Paladin wrote:
Ya know, now that I think about it, why doesn't shaken do anything really to casters? Why not just buff the shaken condition to cause casters to have to make concentration checks to cast spells? It'd help slow them down a bit and it makes sense. Your mental state is impaired, but you're still cool to bend the laws of the universe?

A lot of conditions are like this. I asked the same question about fatigued, exhausted, and slowed recently. I was trying to customize the basilisk's petrifying gaze to happen gradually over 3 rounds so (combined with the smeared blood fixing it) it could be a fun and less instantly deadly encounter. I was going to have it go Slowed-->Slowed+Exhausted-->Petrified.

Then I realized that'd do freaking nothing to the casters in the party, so I changed it to:
"You feel your skin tightening, your muscles resist the urge to move, your lips struggle to articulate words, even your mental faculties seem to be slowing down."
Exposure (failed save): Slowed, 25% cast/manifest failure
2nd round: Slowed, 50% cast/manifest failure, and Exhausted
3rd round: Petrified

Far, FAR too many conditions don't really hurt casters at all.

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wraithstrike wrote:
I think the fighter needs 4 skills points. Actually I think no class should have a base of 2 skill points.

I'm quite fine with the primary spellcasters who currently have only a base of 2 staying that way.

Gauthok wrote:

Can't you go Ifrit and take the ability to see through smoke, and do the same thing with smokesticks? And that would be at 1st level.

I was trying to figure out if it was worth it to go Tiefling with Fiendsight x2 but I don't think it is.

Maybe, I wasn't aware of that ability, did ARG add it? Even if you do go with obscuring mist, you'd want smoke sticks as an alchemical power component to make the mist immune to being burned away with fire. So if a race can cut out the dip entirely, that'd be handy. Oracle dip is still sorta nice just for Dual-Cursed to get Misfortune and use it both on foes and to help the party.

The Brawler having something like that doesn't bother me. It's sort of a partial fighter, I've heard. And it sucks nearly as bad as the monk, I've also heard.

It bothers me that it's all of the casters that have feats-on-demand.

As for Fighter out-of-combat....there's not much you CAN do without upsetting someone for making it "not a fighter anymore." I just settled for 4 + int skill points and a better list. Lore Warden largely takes care of that in PF. As for Barbarian... "People think barbarians only good in fights, but there are many hidden benefits to class in social situations." :D

Fighter needs versatility and out of combat abilities more than he needs higher combat bonuses.

I did just have a thought, though. Now that War domain clerics and any half-elf caster (Paragon Surge) can spontaneously gain a needed feat...
Why the hell don't FIGHTERS have such an ability? It seems so simple, so basic. So easy to add to the class...

I'm too lazy to make a full build, but IME the only viable rogue build at nearly all levels of play in PF (for combat) is one that goes ranged, dips Oracle for the ability to see through mist (Water Sight, Waves mystery), and then hides in Obscuring Mist delivering full attack sneak attacks every round (because anyone 10+ ft away can't see him, and 5 ft steps are a thing). Such a rogue would strive for a Seeking bow (to deal w/ other forms of concealment) and Sniper's Goggles ASAP.
You can use the Andoran PFS Field Guide trait for longbow proficiency, or just be a Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms) or Elf.
Also be sure to "abuse" the fact that a rogue can take Combat Trick *and* Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) to maximize feats.

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Nathanael Love wrote:

Bro you claimed "rogue can't do more damage than a bard plus a martial"

Of course not-- one character not being able to do more damage than TWO characters just makes and of course that's not a fair comparison.

You keep saying how much more damage the bard is causing to happen without ever showing how or how much-- you're the one who keeps claiming that the numbers are on your side, so yes, asking you to show those numbers is logical, fair, and necessary to have a discussion in good faith.

You have posited a theory "bard does more damage" and a second theory "bard+martial does more damage" it is YOUR responsibility to show the evidence if you want to "prove" how bad rogue is.

But you won't provide any support other than repeating that you are right.

It isn't that bard + martial does more damage. It's that bard + the extra damage bard buffs the martial to do (which includes higher damage from hitting more often) does more damage than rogue. Haste, Inspire Courage, Discordant Voice, etc... add up fast.

In any case, damage output is probably the area bard obsoletes rogue in the least. With Versatile Performance, bard flat out has more skill points, and spells provide far more utility beyond what rogue is capable of (including huge skill buffs / supplements like Charm Person, Sift, and Glibness). Good Will and defensive spells mean bard has better defenses, too.

I gave Fighters more skills, some Tome of Battle stuff, and a few other added things. It was never intended to make them a good class, but make it at least sort of rewarding through 20 levels when combined with Dungeon crasher, Hit and Run Fighter, and/or Zhentarim Fighter alternate class features and PHB 2 feats.

This was for 3E, btw, not PF. Partly because the final version came out before PF and the previous versions had been tweaked for at least 3 years before that.

As in the PHB, except:
• Class Skills: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str)
• Skill points = 4 + Int modifier
• Class Disciplines: DM, IH, SS, SD, TC, WR
• Fighter levels count as full initiator levels for determining what stances and maneuvers can be chosen by the character for the above disciplines. Also, Fighter bonus feats spent on Martial Study (as well as maneuvers learned with the Martial Study class feature) do not count against the standard limit of how many times the feat may be taken (3).
• Weapon Aptitude: Fighters can re-designate which weapons their weapons-related feats apply to each morning, see Warblade for more information.
• 5th level – Versatile Learning: Ability scores count as 4 points higher and base save bonuses count as 2 points higher when meeting the prerequisites of a feat on the Fighter bonus feat list. This applies even if not actually acquiring the feat with a bonus feat slot.
• 11th level – Shattering Strike: The Fighter may use a standard action to take a single attack at his highest attack bonus. This attack disregards 1 point of DR of the opponent per Fighter level. The effective DR does not go below zero.
• 17th level – Greater Shattering Strike: Any attack the Fighter makes treats the opponent’s DR as 1 point lower per two Fighter levels, not reducing effective DR below zero. The Fighter may still use a standard action to do a single attack at the higher DR reduction rate.
• Martial Study: At levels 3, 9, 15, and 19 a Fighter may learn one maneuver for which he meets the prerequisites (he may still take Martial Study as a Fighter bonus or regular feat). In addition, at each of these levels, the Fighter gains one maneuver readied. This allows the Fighter to ready maneuvers he has learned through Martial Study, so that he can recover them mid-battle as a swift action followed immediately by a melee attack or as a standard action, following all rules for recovering maneuvers (including the restriction of not using a maneuver that round). Note, for a Fighter with more maneuvers known than he can ready (and assuming no martial adept levels), any maneuvers not readied are available once per encounter, as normal. If the Fighter has actual martial adept levels, he instead adds to his total maneuvers readied, and may select a number of maneuvers to ready from his Martial Study feats equal to the bonus readied maneuvers this feature grants (i.e., 1 at Fighter 3, etc...). In this case, all the multiclassed Fighter’s maneuvers are recovered by whatever method the martial adept class follows. If the Fighter has more than one martial adept class, he must choose which one he will add the extra readied maneuver to each time he gains this feature.
• Advanced Training: At levels 7 and 13 the Fighter learns special tactics and skills. He may choose any one Tactical or Weapon Style feat for which he meets the pre-requisites.

Fighter variants:

“Gladiator” Variant
• d8 HD
• Remove Armor Proficiency: Medium and Heavy, and Tower Shield Proficiency. Gladiators are proficient with the net.
• Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Perform (all) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Swim (Str).
• Skill points = 6 + Int modifier
• Class Disciplines: DW, IH, SS, SH, SD, TC, WR
• Change “good” save from Fortitude to Reflex
• Confident Defense: A gladiator can add his charisma modifier to AC as a dodge bonus while wearing light or no armor, to a maximum amount equal to his class levels. In order to gain this benefit, the gladiator must be fighting within 60 feet of three or more conscious allies whom he has line of effect to. He can also gain this benefit when fighting in front of a crowd or audience if the audience has a status of “Friendly” or better with him (see Diplomacy skill). Improving this status is a use of Perform (Weapon Drill) as normal, in addition to any other conditional effects the DM allows.
• Starting with 2nd level bonus feat, a gladiator may choose to gain +1d6 Sneak Attack instead of a bonus feat at each even level (need not always be sneak attack).
• 5th level – A gladiator gains Evasion, but only while wearing light or no armor. A helpless Gladiator loses the benefit of Evasion. This replaces the standard fighter’s 5th level ability.
• At 11th and 17th levels, a Special Ability is gained from the Rogue Special Ability list. Alternatively, Uncanny Dodge (or Improved Uncanny Dodge if you already have the former) may be chosen. This replaces the standard Fighter’s 11th and 17th level abilities.

“Court Champion” Variant
• Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
• Change “good” save from Fortitude to Will.
• Class Disciplines: DS, DM, IH, SS, SD, WR
• At 5th level, the Fighter gains an Animal Companion, as a Druid, but any animal he chooses must be suitable as a mount. At levels 11 and 17, the animal companion gains a bonus feat of any kind it can meet the requirements for. The Court Champion variant loses the level 5, 11, and 17 class features.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
It's a Ranger 3 spell and can therefore be made into a potion. By casting Alchemical Allocation you can re-use a potion.
Yep, a theoretically unlimited number of times, too. So that's clearly the smart play. You're effectively adding it to your extract list as a 2nd level extract for 1,050 gp.

And a 2-round casting time.

Strongjaw doesn't last very long, so that's kind of a big deal, though if you are specializing in stealth and can reliably at least start if not finish the AA + gargle combo before combat actually begins it's more feasible. Ditto if you have the Acclerated Drinker trait, though the "on the round following..." text is rather annoying here and requires DM interpretation to get by.

It is the best way for him to do it though, yeah.

EDIT: At high levels, a great candidate for Eternal Potion discovery.

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