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StrangePackage's page

FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 624 posts (628 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 7 Pathfinder Society characters. 1 alias.


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Liberty's Edge **

So what kind of romance is brewing for tomorrow?

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How much do I have to donate to get the Empty Graves maps?;)

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zrandrews wrote:

You're the 6th man in a party full of Melee's? To me, this just screams out for a bard. You're the man with the spells, the man with the skill, and the man with the INSPIRE COURAGE.

Hit everyone with Message in the morning, and play it like you're the squad info ops guy, giving out positional updates, direction and encouragement to the team. You can get a high UMD and wands for the status fixes. Max out the Knowledges, and let bruisers know what weapon to use.

Whatever you do, don't try to make a Heal Bot. That just...just...miserable.

I'm going to agree with this. Don't worry too much about AoE. The party is going to love Haste and Heroism and Inspire Courage.

Either this or an Evangelist Cleric (if you're worried about conditions and don't want to invest in scrolls/umd).

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ElterAgo wrote:


Again. I've seen little evidence that suggests the allowance of one single optional choice in a game with thousands of choices will make it significantly better for everyone.

But as you note, it is not just one single option. It's 1/3rd of the alignments available, and with those alignments come additional thousands of choices down the line.

ElterAgo wrote:


That is exactly what I am doing. My experience tells me that allowing evil alignments is most likely to detract from the enjoyment of all the members of the group except for one. Taking it away after having allowed it means even that one person is not having fun. At that point the campaign is probably dead.

With respect, it is different. The distinction is "if". You assume the agency of certain players will interfere with the overall enjoyment of the game. That's not terribly fair to players who have not demonstrated they cannot be trusted with that agency. You're operating exclusively on your beliefs, and reducing agency because of it.

ElterAgo wrote:


Now that is just silly. Because a person has difficulty with one single optional choice, he is suddenly totally unacceptable as a GM.
I know at least 2 GM's that do a perfectly fine job with heroic campaigns. One of them can even handle an all evil campaign. But neither seems to know what do do with a mixed group.
But oh well, they can't handle this one thing, so I guess they have to quit. That's ridiculous.

I must have misunderstood your initial point. When you said "4) Say I'm the GM that doesn't handle it well. The campaign is on fire and to try and put it out I take away the evil PC's. Now I am the bad guy for taking away their toys because I blame the players for me being a bad GM." I guess I just misunderstood, because if the players are enjoying themselves, and no one is objecting to this (the GM is the only one with a problem) how is everything on fire? And why would you take away something that everyone is capable of doing and enjoying?

ElterAgo wrote:


Look again. I never said anything about guarantees. I never said there can't be other causes of friction or GM mismanagement. I never even hinted or implied that.

I looked again. You said, and I quote: If I don't allow it I will not be a bad guy and we all have fun.

Perhaps what you intended to convey was different than what you chose to write. What you wrote is a fallacy that underpins your entire argument- that but for the inclusion of this option, everyone will have fun and you won't be a "bad guy". This is simply not the case, and you know it as well as everyone else.

What then about this specific option is demonstrably more toxic to enjoyment than any of the other potential barriers I listed? I'll save you time: there's nothing about it. For every anecdote you bring that it is more toxic, others have anecdotes that it isn't, or that the God-Wizard was more of a PITA than the evil rogue, or that some people who play LN like it was CE or LG like LE and so the difference is minimal, or that mechanical imbalances render the game not enjoyable far more frequently than alignemnt, etc.

Given that, the decision to strip options from players who have yet to demonstrate they cannot be trusted to exercise those options with consideration to the other players is arbitrary and capricious.

ElterAgo wrote:


1) I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at here. But it doesn't sound like my goals (or most of the players I have known) in this hobby. I take part in this hobby to hang out with my friends and escape from my daily life for a few hours.

Absolutely that's the goal. But it sounds like you're saying, when you get right down to it, that you don't trust your friends to be decent to each other, or that should they upset one another, that they wouldn't be able to reason/talk it out and come to terms with one another. That's rough.

ElterAgo wrote:


Has zero to do with my personal beliefs.

If you aren't willing to give them the chance to demonstrate that they are capable of handling what "your experiences" tell you they are not, then it has everything to do with your personal beliefs. If you have already tried and failed with these players, that's one thing. To hold them to account for things they did not do is entirely another. One is a consequence of their actions, the other is a consequence of your beliefs about actions they did not take.

ElterAgo wrote:


3) It isn't my job to push them into more roles. Besides that doesn't have anything to do with the conversation unless I say that not only is evil alignments allowable, but one of you has to take one.

No one is mandating you make them play evil characters. That's akin to saying if we make gay marriage legal, then we have to all get gay married. But if you give them the option, and they take it, then you are in effect encouraging them to play new and different perspectives by giving them a chance you otherwise have not.

You may not find these reasons compelling, and that's fine, but I find that games are enriched by a diversity of players and a diversity of characters.

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ElterAgo wrote:
StrangePackage wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote:

Long ago we had a player who was just hell bent on playing his mage like Raistlin Majere as he was a big fan of the Dragonlance series. ...

Since then I do not allow evil player characters in the heroic fantasy games I run. It's disruptive.

First and only experience, apparently.

It seems a downright shame that you rule out allowing your players to try their hands at something new because someone "long ago" couldn't do it.

For me it is a matter of odds.

Yes, an evil character in the group can be done well with much fun had by all. If have been in a group that did it about perfectly. As well as another that did ok with it.

But that isn't where the odds are. Most of the time, there is at least one person in the group that does not handle it well. Some person that can't separate the players pretend persona from reality (we're all playing our fantasy so if he really wants to play a bad guy that must mean he really wants to be a bad guy). The multitude of people that don't know a non-ash-hat way to play an evil character (there are a lot of players that are ok playing a good character, but think to be an evil character they must betray the party, steal, be insane, etc...). The GM that doesn't know how to set up an adventure for non-cliché heroes...

Never tell me the odds!

Sorry, I've always wanted to say that. But to answer your questions:

1- Yes, absolutely. Any time as a GM you can maximize player choice and agency, it is all that much better.
2- As the GM, it's your responsibility to manage the game in a way to maximize the fun for all the players. If the agency of certain players interferes with the overall enjoyment of the others, then it is your responsibility to talk with them and, if they cannot mitigate their behavior, mitigate it for them. This is not unique to alignment.
3- See above
4- That's YOUR problem, not your players' problem. If you can't handle being the GM, don't be the GM.

But what I take most issue with is the fallacy you premise your argument on. Your biggest logical error is that you can't guarantee that "you won't be the badguy and everyone will have fun." I've been in plenty of games where there were stringent alignment restrictions, and interpersonal friction/GM mismanagement still managed to derail and/or detract from the game.

Can differing alignments contribute to that? Absolutely they can. But they do not, in and of themselves, derail or detract from a game any more than does the existence (or lack thereof) of the caster/martial disparity, the Stormwind fallacy, the summoner/gunslinger/headless clown class, or simple interpersonal friction from having different personalities at the table.

The incentive to allow evil players in your game include, but are not limited to:
1-Demonstrating trust and faith in your players to approach thorny issues in a mature and responsible way that will be fun for everyone
2- Maximizing player agency and choice, which is (IMO) always preferable to limiting options based on your personal beliefs that others may not share.
3- Challenging your players to play a wider ranger of roles and challenging you as a GM to adapt to accommodate those roles and integrate their decisions into your game.

Give evil a chance.

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Muad'Dib wrote:

Long ago we had a player who was just hell bent on playing his mage like Raistlin Majere as he was a big fan of the Dragonlance series. Anyway his Raistlin clone was causing all sorts of table disruptions and it invariably lead to players attacking players.

My character got involved and after a back & forth battle (and a potion I purchase as an insurance policy should he go full Raistlin) my character stool battered yet victorious. My character spared his characters life with the promise that he would leave and never been seen again. At that point the GM snatched up the character sheet and declared his character and NPC.

A wise move by the GM and that details my first experience with "the token evil teammate"

Since then I do not allow evil player characters in the heroic fantasy games I run. It's disruptive.

First and only experience, apparently.

It seems a downright shame that you rule out allowing your players to try their hands at something new because someone "long ago" couldn't do it.

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1 person marked this as a favorite.

This thread needs more evil.

What about an affably evil necromancer? Someone who, for whatever reason, has no idea that his behavior is rubbing people the wrong way?

Like the party is standing around the butchered corpses of their enemies, breathing hard after a difficult fight and rummaging for loot, when in walks Mr. Necro,

"You... you don't, uh, perchance, need that arm, do you?" *points*

"What?"

"Cuz if you're not using it..." *hopeful look*

"...what?"

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1 person marked this as a favorite.

Never mind. Nothing productive can come of this.

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Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Quote:
For a paladin, Fey Foundling is like the Ultimate Trait.

Fey Fondling is a Feat not a trait. It can only be taken at first level but It is considered the best feat for a paladin at level 1.

I recommend a stat array of:

Str: 20 (racial & +2 Item), Dex: 11+1=12, Con: 13+1= 14, Int & Wis: 8, Cha 16+2 item=18

Traits of:
Dangerously Curious= UMD as a Class Skill (max this and get a wand of Mirror image ASAP)
Fate's Favored- (you said you want to use Divine Favor in battle...I recommend a Jingasa of the Fortunate soldier as well....Later Prayer will be a Go to spell to start boss battles off with.)
Reactionary: +2 initative

Feats:
H-Fey Fondling
1-Power Attack
3-Greater Mercy
5-Weapon Focus- Falchion
7-Extra Lay on Hands

9th- Improved Critical

Skills: Diplomacy, UMD, Perception: This is about all a paladin needs....I see you, I try to reason with you, I Buff up and I smite you.

Ultimate mercy is a wasted feat in this build. FIrst reason....you need 10 uses of lay on hands when your using them on yourself to stay alive and getting extra smites with your Oath. Your not going to have 10 uses left to use on the feat when someone goes down this early. Perhaps wait till later levels when you have like 15+ uses of lay on hands...But even then you can cast Resurrection from a scroll with UMD and not waste your feats on a support feat.....focus on just YOUR combat and not playing front liner who runs off to heal people.

Dude. What is it with you and fey fondling? This is a family board, you know.

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The only major difference between this and the beaststrike club is the single change (as opposed to 5 settings like the club) and the lack of wild shape applications. Would that significantly alter the price do you think?

And yes to Savage Maw. That spell is pretty on the money.

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For my Mummy's Mask game, I have the intention of introducing a magic sword that I want to custom make. I'm modeling it on the Beaststrike Club.

I'm calling it Sobek's Jaw. It's a +1 Falchion with crocodile teeth set into the blade. Upon command, the damage changes from Slashing to Piercing. I want the weapon to function as a natural bite attack for the purposes of feats and spells as well.

How much do you guys figure such a weapon would cost, and what would the crafting requirements be? What spell would you base it off?

Any help would be appreciated, this is my first magic item I've designed.

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3 people marked this as a favorite.
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
David M Mallon wrote:
Lesson: never name your NPCs things that are homophonic or easily rhymable with everyday words and phrases.
Or something that can be twisted into something that sounds dirty.

This is truth. In my Jade Regent campaign, we were hot on the trail (in book two) of Asvig Longthews. Of course, with the way his name is pronounced it took very little prompting for the halfling cleric to kick the door in and demand to know which of the people inside was "butt fruit."

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What the smurf?

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The gnome was in the employ of a powerful force of some kind, who wanted his construct army for their own nefarious purposes. The PCs must climb the ladder to deal with this newly emerged threat?

A rancid swamp? Sounds like prime Black dragon real estate.

The golems he had created were the only things keeping a local threat in check (hobgoblin tibe/Cadre of dark wizards from whom the gnome stole many of his necromantic secrets/Undead creature who was going to be using many of the raw materials of the biotech critters for food and/or progent)?

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Something to think about-

Here's a list of the deities that allow for Heroism subdomain

Are you more interested in Gorum or in Heroism?

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2 people marked this as a favorite.

Easy there Fruian- fondling fey is a crime in certain places

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1 person marked this as a favorite.

They have fewer articles, less information, and more persistent errors than pathfinderwiki.com

They must have a better Google algorithm because they come up higher in the search engines, but there is no comparison between the two as far as information, sourcing, and depth of detail.

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pathfinder.wikia.com is remarkably useless.

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Apple Blossom wrote:

I like the idea of a frog that has been exposed to and mutated from Numerian oozes. Perhaps play it as an Alchemist and build towards the Master Chymst.

Or... get a banjo and take levels of bard while singing about rainbows.

Kremit D'Forg.

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Neo2151 wrote:

I should clarify that I don't think Clerics are a *bad* class (the only bad classes, IMO, are Fighters, Monks, and Rogues).

I just think if you're looking to fill any of the roles they can fill, you'll always have a better option available.

Divine Self-Buffer? Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest are all superior to Cleric.
Party Buffer/Healer? Oracles and Shaman are both superior to Cleric here.
Debuffing? It's a risky strategy for anyone, but Arcane tends to do it more reliably.
Summoner? Arcane just simply does it better, whether it's a Conjurer, a Summoner, an Arcanist, etc.
Necromancy? You're pretty good here, but get to deal with all the roleplay issues. Aaaand Oracle does it better.

And if the default argument in their favor is that, "you can do all those things!" Well, you really can't. It's possible, sure, but being unfocused in your goal tends to increase the odds that you won't have prepared the right tool for the job when you need it. (It's why Wizards automatically have Scribe Scroll, after all.)

That said, the cleric can do any of these as necessary. The mild mannered support cleric can buff himself into a combatant, the bad-touch debuffer can repair damage and lift conditions...

Many classes can perform the individual tasks as well or better, but none can take 15 minutes of prayer and fill a totally different role as required.

Liberty's Edge **

How was it?

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The Druid in my Skulls and Shackles campaign went with constrictor. When appropriately buffed, it gave my ridiculously optimized CAGM barbarian a run for his money in the DPR department.

It gets my vote.

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My players are The True Seekers. Their ranks are:

Fortuitous, a Halfling Paladin of Sarenrae
Yum Tog, an unscrupulous Half-orc barbarian
Aswed Tau, a Tiefling rogue destined for great things
Izof, a far-flung Varisian Pilgrim of Desna
Hrynn, a Gnoll inquisitor of Horus.

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Underground and Urban.

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3 people marked this as a favorite.
yazo wrote:
What do i do?

You seem to ask a question and dismiss the entirety of the responses for some reason or other.

You are pigeonholing yourself unnecessarily by being "The skill guy." There is no skill in the game that can't be overcome by creativity, blunt force trauma, or magic. And you have magic, too.

Combat is a major part of the game. Learn to contribute in it or make sure the other players are fine dragging around a non-contributor. Can't contribute to damage in combat? Cast grease on the badguy's sword, or on the floor. Grab a longspear and make attacks of opportunity, or use the aid another action. Hell, maybe just don't contribute at all. That can be an enjoyable RP decision- maybe your guy is a total coward, or a pacifist, or has some other foible about participating in combat?

It seems like you're really upset that the GM isn't letting you utilize your skills. Talk to him. Maybe see if he won't replace "simple doors" with "strong doors." Work in more social encounters, or traps.

You have ridiculous stats- the equivalent of a 45 point buy. You can find a way to make it work.

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Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

d6 classes roll 1d4+2, d8 classes roll 1d6+2, d10 classes roll 1d8+2, and d12 classes roll 1d10+2

There's still a significant amount of variation, and it's riskier the higher you go along the hit die, as all classes have a minimum of three.

Not bad. I may go with that.

Liberty's Edge

We go with alternatives- either the PFS style (d6 gets 4, d8 gets 5, d10 gets 6, d12 gets 7)

OR

You roll yours, and the GM rolls the same in secret. If you don't like your roll, you can take the GM's roll.

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The music from the HBO series ROME was surprisingly good.

Likewise the soundtrack from The Last Temptation of Christ.

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Hilariously bad rolls all night nearly killed my party a few different times. Believe it or not, the dolls were the most dangerous critters.

We have at the table:

A Div-Spawn Tiefling Rogue (later going to Sorcerer)
A Half-Orc Barbarian
A Human Varisian Pilgrim of Desna
A Halfling Paladin of Sarenrae
A Gnoll Inquisitor of Horus

They're going by the name "The True Seekers."

It's a good group, but they rolled for absolute crap last night. We did the lottery and the first tomb pretty quickly, and they looted most everything they could.

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2 people marked this as a favorite.

I bet this thread didn't see this post coming a mere 5 years after its demise.

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Summons. They'll find traps for you.

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Kysus Arelius wrote:

Curious, but why has there been a few mentions of Wild Child Brawler but no mention of Nature Fang Druid?

** spoiler omitted **

1) They get the Studied Target Slayer ability
2) They get 1d6 Sneak Attack
3) They get Slayer Talents (able to get Ranger Combat Style feats via this)
4) AC from Druid list at full BAB
5) Full caster level (Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, Animal Growth, + more)

Not trying to create a Tarzan replica but more of a Wild clawing/biting character like Gau from FF6 or San from Princess Mononoke. Does the above build seem doable and are the stats ok? I'll have to buy a Headband of Wisdom +2 around level 6 to be able to cast 5th and 6th level spells later on. My DC's will be low, will I be losing out a lot on the Druid's offensive spells?

You may not have noticed, but you can't get Eldritch Claws at level 7 since you won't have +6 BAB. That may impact your decision making.

I think you're not getting the advice you're looking for because of how you phrased the question. Most people think of tarzan as being loin-cloth clad and grappling/pummeling/stabbing with his knife, not as a creature that grew claws and fangs.

There are a number of very good options in the Advanced Class Guide for what you're trying to accomplish. The Mad Dog Barbarian is probably the best option from what you've got this far, with Beast Totem, but you'll be relying on weapons and your base stats until you get to rage at 4th level.

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You could take Additional Traits as a feat to pick up Magical Knack to improve your CL, or save up money for an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, to offset it.

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Alignment Channel.

ETA Dang, ninja'ed.

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Grease!

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Dreaming Psion wrote:
806. Not allowed to kill the witnesses and then excuse it by saying "DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES!" with a lousy and obnoxious pirate accent. That is the whole reason why Speak with Dead was made.

*** Rule not applicable in the Shackles.

Liberty's Edge

Concealment usually negates the ability to inflict precision damage. Shadow strike allows for you to continue to get precision damage (like sneak attack or swashbuckler damage) when your opponent has concealment. It does not grant any precision damage in and of itself.

Your tiger should probably have power attack, improved natural attack, light armor proficiency, and weapon focus (claws). Toughness and Combat Reflexes would also be good.

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Chuzzle (given name Specimen 63) was lovingly raised in a small wire cage by an alchemist who maintained a small laboratory south of the Nettlewood. The chuzzle and burble and glub and hiss of many simmering cauldrons, the drip-drip-drip of alembics distilling, and the occasional KABOOOM of explosions were the songs of his youth.

Specimen 63 grew quickly, as all goblins do, fed a steady diet of whatever delicious experiments the Master chose to give him and vegetables from the garden. Their interactions increased when the Specimen showed, as the notes of his Master reflected, "a remarkable resistance to most local toxins," and "surprisingly advanced problem-solving skills." Specimen 63 came to revere the Master as a protector and provider, and attempted to assist him however the Master would allow, even being granted limited liberty to tend the fires in the labs and harvest ingredients from the nearby woods. The Master taught the Specimen both common and goblin and even began tutoring Specimen 63 in rudimentary alchemy, considering the resilient little gobbo as a sort of mascot.

This idyllic life ended when the Master was struck down by the vicious Thistletop Goblins. Before they were able to "liberate" the distraught Specimen 63, he was able to scoop up many of the Master's prized possessions (his alchemy formulaery and his most rare and potent reagents) and then the Thistletop Goblins spirited him back through the Nettlewood. Their return to the keep coincided with the arrival of the Heroes of Sandpoint, and Specimen 63 was able to use the ensuing combat to explode his way to freedom.

Since that time, Chuzzle (as he chose to name himself after his favorite cauldron's signature sound) has striven to live up to the example set by the Master, including maintaining a strict vegetarian diet, and only exploding people and things who need to be exploded. Although strange and somewhat macabre (Chuzzle's lonely upbringing has made him very fond of holding conversations with inanimate objects, like skulls and corpses), he nevertheless remains an endearing and valuable companion to the Heroes. His rendition of his song "Secret Chuzzle: Not a Gobbo" was a hit in the Rusty Dragon for several weeks after his initial performance.

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Wands and scrolls.

Consumables exist for a reason.

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Make a charlatan rogue and sell powdered water- just add water!

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LessPopMoreFizz wrote:
Alternately, just save your Panache for Opportune Parry/Riposte, and it means you don't need anywhere near as much AC in many cases, and can focus your resources elsewhere.

That's quite good. Quite good indeed.

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Kirin style does need Imp. Unarmed Strike, but say you are a human and take IUS and Weapon Finesse at level 1, then at level 7 you take Kirin Style and Level 9 Kirin Strike. That still leaves levels 3 and 5 for whatever other feats you might need. I'd advise against Arcane Strike since Kirin Style and Studied Combat are going to be eating up your swift actions.

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Why do you suggest that extracts are limited compared to the alchemists? Do they not get the exact same number?

And if I was going to make a brains investigator, I'd ditch TWF and go with a rapier and Kirin Style/Kirin Strike.

Move to study, swift action Kirin Style to identify (which you should nail because duh- Investigator), standard action to quaff whatever buff you most desire, then next round you move up to hit for Studied Combat plus Studied Strike plus Agile Weapon plus 2 times your INT modifier, which should be multiplied on a crit even if your precision damage does not.

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Okay then. Vanilla archer bard or archery-focused Inquisitor.

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Why not a Witch? It's a full arcane caster that can also lay down crippling debuffs, and occasionally a few buffs as well. You still get access to a few more necessary condition removing spells and can wield a wand of cure light wounds without necessarily having to be a bandaid.

With the Agility patron, you get Haste and Freedom of Movement, for which the party will love you. Just a thought.

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Druids are like swiss-army knives. They can adapt to almost any situation the GM wants to throw at you. Take Scribe Scroll so that you can begin an arsenal of spells that are only situationally useful (because druids have those in spades, those situations may arise, and then you look like a boss). With that many Undead running around, you probably won't need an animal companion unless you really wanted one, so perhaps instead take a cleric domain, and either go straight caster or widlshape/caster.

Candidly, I don't have much experience with Shamans. They have some abilities that could be useful as an arm, and a decent number of buff spells, but I just can't speak with any particular clarity on whether or not they can do the job you want them to.

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I'd suggest a simpler class for someone new to Pathfinder. Those classes are both in the Advanced Class Guide, which, as the name implies, is more suited for advanced players with greater system mastery. That being said, if you want to go with either of those, I'd lean more towards the Shaman,or alternatively, a Druid or Cleric.

If this is not a gestalt type game, then the Orc Rogue is probably a front-liner who uses the Dhampir Minions as flank buddies, am I correct? In that case, you're probably looking at the rogue as damage/skills with the minions allowing the Necromancer to stay back and hurl spells to keep them alive (undead) and kicking and hinder the badguys.

The party still lacks access to buffs and the ability to address negative conditions. Your job will probably be more in the support than the control/debuff or damage area. A Druid with a companion will allow you to stand back and support the party with buffs and address negative conditions on your friends while your Animal Companion helps keep the bad things away from you, and gives you access to a unique group of spells. A reach Cleric (longspear or a deity with a reach weapon like Shelyn), or a battle cleric, meanwhile, can dish out beats and buffs, and also gives you access to the full range of divine spells. A shaman would be a middle ground between the two, but because of their reliance on both Wisdom for spells and hexes and Charisma for Spirit abilities, would mean less of a chance for you to get in an mix it up yourself if you were so inclined.

I guess it falls to you to figure out how you want to assist the group, and go from there.

You need to figure out HOW you want to contribute, first and foremost, and address what weaknesses your party has. I recommend The Forge of Combat for all players of any level of experience.

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Have you considered an Ancestor or Metal Oracle? With a few buffs they make suitable frontliners.

You could also consider a cleric with access to the animal domain, or any type of druid, to get both beats and buffs/heals for yourself.

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At low levels, Toughness is probably all you need. Power attack at level 1 would likely be overkill, and your AC isn't going to matter too much. Light Armor Proficiency would probably be the best thing going because it will scale more with level than would Dodge or Improved Natural Armor (provided you continue to invest in it). Later you can get things like Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Bite), and Improved Natural Attack.

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And we still don't post here near as much as we used to since we migrated to the website and Facebook.

We're an awesome lodge.

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