Stehil's page

6 is a good place to start. Reloading those 6 might be a royal pain, but it makes the gun viable.

6 for low to mid level play (i'd say sub 10) really isn't to bad. Your dealing with 2 shots sub level 6 and 6-10 at 3 providing you have rapid shot (and why wouldn't you?).

That's 3 rounds at 2 shots a round or 2 rounds at 3 shots a round, and providing you have rapid reload at least 1 shot a round, move - reload, standard - shoot. Add lightning reload feat in there and you can do two shots a round once your "empty". It would still be nice to see a "gun mastery" along the lines of crossbow mastery that gives you free or even a swift reload at later levels, probably around 10ish or so since i think that's where your going to start running into issues with attack numbers. Obviously haste is going to skew these numbers a bit with the extra attack.

3 rounds of full(ish) shots isn't bad as most combats tend to be decided by that point. As the added bonus the touch attack means your hitting more often than most people. We're running a game with a guns using the touch rules and the 1d8+ 1d6 elemental + enhancement bonus + Point blank (when applicable) + Deadly aim (because lets face it, when your hitting touch attacks you can afford the -) + (in this case) dex , every shot hurts. Even say level 7 you should be shooting with + to hit of bab 7 + 1 focus + 5 dex (18 + 2 for belt) 13 vs touch you won't drop the BBEG in one round, but your still guaranteed a good chance of hitting him, let alone playing pick off the poor little minions.

I like the tinkering idea too. I was actually making a Gunslinger class for my campaign and it was based around the idea of a gunslinger has but one gun he upgrades. You choose either musket or pistol, and as you level up you able to add on to the gun. It was essentially an "animal companion" in the sense a gunslinger forms a bond with his gun. You loose your gun you have to bond with another gun kinda like the wizard.

You my friend are looking for the Gun Mage from Iron Kingdoms (Privateer Press)

You are confusing cartridge ammunition with magazine feed.

Cartridge ammunition is when the bullet and powder (and usually primer) are packaged together as a single unit.

Magazine feed is a device for feeding multiple rounds of ammunition (cartridges, or in the case of a crossbow bolts) into the firing mechanism.

Magazine feed for firearms requires cartridges with an integral impact primer (percussion cap) as you would otherwise still need to re-prime for each shot and additionally create an opening in the cartridge for the primer to ignite the main charge.

What you are looking for is more along the line of a turnover pistol or pepperbox. Multiple barrels that rotate on a central axis, each loaded and primed, which are indexed to the hammer to be fired. (yes, you can use it for long guns as well as pistols)

The downside to this system is that reloading is even more time intensive since each barrel takes as much time to load as a single barrel firearm, so the reload time would be multiplied by the number of barrels to be loaded. In other words - once you have fired all of your barrels you will now need to reload for several rounds unless you want to fire each barrel as you reload it as a single shot firearm.

Theoretically, I suppose one could swap out the entire empty barrel assembly for a fresh one that is fully loaded as a full round action (I'm hesitant to suggest Rapid Reload applying since you are effectively dismantling the firearm.). Of course the weight of this would be about 2/3-3/4 that of the completed firearm, and the cost would be at least 1/2 that of the firearm per set of barrels. Not to mention the question of which part of the firearm counts as magic and the associated question of having...

You are correct, a revolver style would make more sense than a cartridge. I was trying to draw lines to multiple capacity guns vs other weapons, and once again trying to form a coherent thought in the morning before work and coffee failed me.

I find that style actually a much more elegant solution in the contexts of what paizo has given us with black powder. I really don't see much of an issue with a gun with capacity 6 or something. At level 6, with rapid reload and rapid shot that gives you 3 shots. That's two full rounds of full attack, then one shot a round using rapid reload. Two if you take lightning reload. Then being able to reload out of combat by taking the 30 some odd seconds is completely reasonable. Being told you can only take one shot a round with what we have so far isn't.

LazarX wrote:

Yes because clockwork constructs don't work by technology, they're magical short-cuts. The Incas mastered extremely sophisticated building techniques that we're just learning to understand, built an extensive road system, yet they never thought of the wheel as more than some something to put on a children's toy. As I recall it took several centuries after the first flintlocks to actually come up with cartridge ammunition, let alone the revolver.

Except because of the same access to magic why wouldn't mages be using spells like fabricate and polymorph any object to experiment with advanced firearms prototypes that could then be mass produced?

Don't use the "well magic" argument its actually a far more internally logical reason for why there would be advanced firearms.

Sorry I should have been more clear, yes i realize that as a construct it is powered by magic, but there is still some extremely complicated crap going on in there gear wise for it to be clock work.

D&D already has cartridge ammunition in the form of the repeating crossbow, it's not too far of a leap to think that someone wouldn't be thinking why can't we have this for guns.

All of the above are great suggestions, hats off to the OP, this is the best break down (with historical citing none the less) that I've seen so far.

The gunslinger should be able to make a viable weapon amazing, not make a crappy weapon viable.

I couldn't agree with this any more.

Though on the note of better guns there was mention of more guns/alternative rules that we'll be seeing in the final book made over in This Post by a designer. Why we're not seeing those in the play test I couldn't tell you...

I also really like the suggested idea of the firearm combat styles, that might get people a little bit more away from stereotyping the class as the spaghetti western class and thinking more pirate or minuteman.

Pathfinder is not a spaghetti western!

I'm Sorry saying that the Gun Slinger isn't suppose to be from a spaghetti western is like trying to say the monk isn't suppose to be from a kung-fu movie, its just silly. People want to play this class because the first thing that will pop into most people's heads is the long gun slinger, the class is even called that.

The real problem everyone seems to be having with here is the reloading, which is an issue. I personally don't see why they just didn't try treating the gun in general like a heavy cross bow. No feasts, full round action to reload, rapid reload, to a move action so you can at least park and shoot every round, then expand on a crossbow mastery or even a gun mastery to make it a free action to reload.

The fact people are saying carry 6 guns or some other number above 2 has already been pointed out as costing a fortune, and again, equally as silly, if nothing else for the price of how the heck do I enchant these things. Ultimately if there were revolvers or something like it, ie higher capacity guns, this would be much less of a problem. I'm hoping that may be in the mysterious rules that Stephen mentioned over in this thread (second post)

As it stands right now, I personally can't see much reason to use a pistol character. I realize that the Touch AC means at mid range levels you will hit on almost every shot, but you need those shots to be able to take them.

A feat combo I like for gunslinger at eleventh level and higher is Secret Stash Deed and Signature Deed. Basically, it gives unlimited ammo.

Not to mention technically generating 16.5 gold a round if you just keep pulling this stuff from mid air....

What I'm really curious is how they intend to get around the capacity limit since each gun can only hold one bullet, with a reload time of a standard action (even move with rapid reload, by level 6 at the latest if you don't take rapid shot or anything you have multiple attacks a round.

Am I expected to carry around and try to enchant 4 guns? We can have clock work constructs yet we're not advanced enough to have a revolvers or clip loading weapons?

nice little package of skills here, I agree with some of the above comments that you would need the right campaign for it as a PC but I could see it being great for an NPC of Villain.

Love basics outline of this, making the cavalier have something to bring anywhere inside that's not just a weaker fighter is great. Not sure how I feel about the second Hound, but realistically speaking at -3 to level you'd have to be very careful with where you use it for quiet a few levels.

Cheers!

Really love the thought you put into this one, especially with it being a Bard.

My only one question is if there is a limit to the amount of allies that can be healed? If not a 30 foot radius could leave up to 36 people being affected by this. Pushing out perform oratory at say level 10, would be 10 ranks, +3 class skill, + 6 sill focus, +4 cha (say 16 base with +2 stat item), +2 MW Instrument = 25, If not in combat you can take 10 meaning 35 which is 6d4 on a 10 or if you roll well 45 for 8d4. putting it on par with mass cure serious wounds with glossolalia which isn't obtainable till 12. Rolling a 20 puts it on par with mass Critical, not available till 16. Both which have a target/level cap. That's also providing you use any of the +5 or 10 to a skill check items, add d4 as needed.

I realize it's a little munchkining in there but when they're all items that would affect everything else the bard has too just wanted to throw that out for food for thought. That aside it's a small knit pick that can be solved with a cap of targets or dice.
I know some people have issues with the word Glossolalia being a mouth full but it's the correct term and I also think it's kind of fun to say :)
Solid all round.

Love the Archetype, I could see myself playing it for something fun and different as well as it making a great NPC. Still leaves in a lot of customize ability leaving feats intact.

I agree with most of the judges, though it i do believe Sean has missed the fact that Never Caught Unarmed replaces the first level combat feat, bringing the bonuses down to +2 attack bonus, +1 Damage which puts it to an average of 3.5 damage per attack (2.5 on 1d4, + 1), meaning its average damage is the same as any 1d6 weapon (short sword, club, etc, albeit with a min damage of 2). This is exactly the same as having that combat bonus and taking weapon focus with it.

I'd honestly say a rogue would be better NOT dipping a level for this as they would be better off just using short swords for the damage and using that rogue talent on Finesse Rogue for the suggested second level bonus feat.

Cut and Run ability could be much clearer on exactly what it allows (a full attack action but allows movement is kind of sloppy -- perhaps instead a standard action would have been more appropriate).

It may be a bit wordy but I think it's the risk/reward that makes it great as a full round. If you failed you still had the chance to move away with the AoO, this way if you fail your stuck. I'm also okay with the staggered since it deals no damage and means the foe is hampered in coming after you better than a -5 to base speed.

Cheers on a well done job

I'd say the same, go with damage. If the intent is to knock them out for something like questioning etc allow the grapple damage to be sudual damage instead.

Two sets of comments, one for Eric one for the rest.

First for Eric, I love the flavor of the monster, it's great and makes me not want to be walking alone in an alleyway with one of these near by. I agree with a few comments on it might be nice to have a bit more history or ecology but I do know you only had 300 words. As a PC Invisible and Incorporeal worry me a bit but when it really comes down to it there are ways around it. Nothing else really worries me and I whole heatedly agree with the great mystery/horror monster comments.

For the rest, I think everybody's had some really great comments and feed back, and as a general comment I feel like some people are getting caught to much on possible mechanics.

This round is about your ability to describe a monster, not your ability to create perfect game statistics.

Just because something sounds like a pain doesn't mean it will be. If mechanics are all your worried about, give people the benefit of the doubt and let next round weed them out.

Also when it comes down to it I can't believe that someone would make something like this without a plan of how not to make it a mechanical nightmare for the DM and PC's.