Starsunder's page

Lots of interesting comments about a Pathfinder Epic (rather, "Mythic") from James, James, and Erik in this blog.

(All due credit to Cheapy for pointing the blog out.)

Yesssssss! They are coming!!!!!!

I can confirm the weird behavior of the PRD on my "new iPad" with iOS 5.1.It seemed OK on th iPad 2 before thogh.

Whew. Glad (in a way!) that I'm not the only one!

That sounds pretty awesome.

One of my favorite things to come from the ELH.

That book had a lot of things wrong with it, but there were some diamonds in the rough.

Vampire Lord/Master Vampire sounds great to me.

More Leshay would be nice.

Brachyurus would be ok

What is a hunefer?

Mummified demigods who have lost their divine spark, the result of which has driven them mad.

Good stuff.

Another vote for vampire masters, leshay, hunefers, and the brachyurus.

I made a video of what was happening earlier, and uploaded it to YouTube a while ago. I'm on my phone now and I'm having trouble linking, but my user name on YT is starsunder81. The video is on my page.

Thanks guys, I went with Goodreader. So far so good!

As the title says. I know Goodreader is popular, but I've also heard good things about PDF Expert by Readdle, which also got a retina update (I'm on the new iPad). It's 10 bucks though and don't wanna waste my money if it doesn't handle Paizos PDFs well.

Starsunder wrote:

I haven't read the entire thread, but is scrolling on the prd borked for safari (using iPhone 4s and iPad 3rd gen)?

Shouldn't be. What page are you having trouble scrolling and what does it do?

All of them. It scrolls then seems to 'jump', for lack of a better word. Scrolling up or down seems to skip entire sections, unless I scroll very slowly. I thought it might be something with my iPhone, but the same thing happens on my iPad.

*edit* Also seems like its refreshing constantly, or trying to. Entire sections blank out then come back immediately. Seems to get better the longer I stay on the page, but it's never 'butter smooth', like what you normally get with Safari.

I haven't read the entire thread, but is scrolling on the prd borked for safari (using iPhone 4s and iPad 3rd gen)?

Starsunder wrote:

-granfaloon/legion

Here's where I admit I haven't played very many video games...

This request seriously tripped me up. First, I couldn't see ANY connection between Granfalloon and Legion that warranted a "/", but that's because the references provided by my brain came from Vonnegut and the Bible.

...But after a little searching, I found my answer.

(Also, we can't use other folk's IP, but, thankfully, a lot of these ideas are old and are just retold, reimagined from folklore, to novels, to movies, to games, and so on. The trick is sticking to the folklore and making the story your own. It may look different, but it's got the same feel and place.)

Ah, yeah, sorry about that. I should have provided links or at least a detailed description. Sometimes I forget the rest of the world isn't made up of Castlevania junkies like myself :p

And yes, most of these monsters are from various folklore/myths, I just happen to like the way they are presented in this series.

As always, I will advocate more Castlevania monsters :)

-A more advanced, fire-breathing cerberus.

-Malphas (or Karasuman), the crow demon.

-lorelai, the sea-monster from Order of Ecclesia.

-nova skeleton

-granfaloon/legion

-amphisbaena/diplocephalus

-the grave digger, from order of ecclesia (resembles a very large man in an overcoat who launches a shovel at you like a javelin, then tries to kill you with sheer strength). Could be human, might be more fun to be something...else.

-lossoth/biphron

Also, only in the last few days did I recognize that rusalka from Bestiary 3 is a boss in Order of Ecclesia :O

So far so good. Mobile fighter archetype fits the Troy rendition of Achilles very well. You'll obviously want him to be armed in breastplate, and maybe armored kilt? To stay true to the flavor you'll want him to have a few javelins, a shortspear, and a longsword to go along with what I would say is a light steel shield. The one Brad uses in the movie is supposedly bronze (as a lot of the weapons and armor were during that time.) You'll want him to have a relatively high Dex, and a good Strength score. The thing with Achilles was that he never ever got hit (it's part of his mythological self). So you might want to give him an amulet of natural armor +5, make his breastplate +5 and his shield +5 as well. You might want to think about a keen weapon, and or improved critical as a feat since Achilles was really good at the one-shot kill. That's about all I can think of to fit my ideas about that movie's Achilles.

Good stuff. Thanks for the detailed reply.

Here's some feats I was thinking might be appropriate: Acrobatic, Vital Strike (improved), Two-Weapon Fighting (improved), Leadership, Improved Shield Bash, the Dodge, Mobility, Spring-Attack line, Weapon Focus/Specialization (Shortsword). Some like Acrobatic and Leadership are obviously flavor based, rather than combat oriented, which is fine. Other suggestions, anyone?

Neutral is a good suggestion malebranche, thanks. I only suggested CN because he seemed somewhat unpredictable.

So I wanna make an Achilles type NPC, based off the Brad Pitt rendition. Was thinking fighter, or a variant thereof, 16th level to have access to a 4th attack. Regular fighter seems good, as does the mobile fighter archetype. I think he wore breastplate in the movie? Advice on any of the above, along with specific feats, ability scores, alignment (CN?) would be greatly appreciated.

Sincubus wrote:

Amphisbaena, at least the version of castlevania, the green monster with the tail as attractive woman, Vouivre looks somewhat like it.

Vouivre is that.

What is Vouivre?

Nice list Sincubus. I would add:

-Lossoth (lantern tossing hunchback from SotN)

-the ravenlord (malphas)

-granfaloon aka Legion

-the armor bros. chakra, blade and hammer

-a colossal zombie variant with huge, demonic flies aka Beelzebub

-the hellfire beast aka amduscius (I know it's supposed to be a duke in mythology, but it makes a wonderful monster

Personally, I'm hoping that we keep seeing creatures from games (particularly Castlevania). I get all giddy every time I see one,such as the alraune, scylla, bloody skeleton variant, etc.

Obviously I know that most of these creatures do not originate from the games, and have much older origins in various mythologies, but nonetheless it's awesome to see creatures we've battled in games so many times grace the pages of a bestiary.

Really, reeeeeaaally hope we see epic level rules this year, or at least that they're announced.

So much potential there, and I trust Paizo to make them awesome.

I would be extremely disappointed if epic rules never got published.

Psionic rules concern me less, but I would hope for the sake of those that want them that they get made.

Also, Glooms (I love the flavor), and Hoary Hunters (ditto).

Starsunder wrote:

Thats kinda what it sounds like to me.

*wishful thinking*

Sometimes, wishes come true.

Just sayin', again.

HHHHHHHHHNNNNGGGG!!

Like I needed another reason to get the Bestiary III.

James Jacobs wrote:

Fozbek wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I like the thousand armed pillar like creature from greek mythology. The name escapes me.

I believe you're referring to the Hekatonkheires, the "hundred-handed ones". There are three of them, each with 100 hands and 50 heads. They helped overthrow the Titans and now guard the gates of Tartarus, where the Titans are imprisoned.

Those guys don't need "epic" rules.

The come close, though.

Just sayin'.

I think he is saying this creature is in Bestiary 3

Thats kinda what it sounds like to me.

*wishful thinking*

A demon lord template isn't as cool as individual hand-crafted statistics.

I totally agree, but a demon lord template would be cool for whipping up a lesser known (or completely new) demon lord fairly quick. I always enjoyed templates and piecemeal monsters using tables and the like (the random monster generator from the AD&D 1st Ed. DMG comes to mind).

I'd like a demon lord template, basically a menu of abilities that could be applied to some sort of base to make custom abyssal lords.

Yep. I like this idea.

I liked the concept of the abominations in the 3.0 ELH, but the actual challenge/CR did not align very well at all. Took my group's level 27 party like 2 entire sessions to fight one of those time things.

Yes, which is why I'd love to see them redone PF style.

In the vein of the vampire lord above, epic versions of a lot of iconic undead like liches, mummies, etc. for undead that have existed for eons. I'm thinking like the Antediluvians from oWoD.

My man! Exactly my thoughts.

I don't know if this topic has been done before, but hopefully it wont hurt to do it again if it has. :p

1- Epic vampire template: Whether its a vampire master, the firstborn vampire, vampire lord, whatever you wanna call it.

2- Kaiju: I believe James made a comment that kaiju would be great for epic level challenges, and I agree!

3- Epic nightshades: They are referenced in the Bestiary II, and I'd love to see some of these bad boys statted up.

4- Abominations: One of the best (if not THE best) things to come out of the ELH 3.0, IMO. Go crazy I say.

5- A Paragon or Monster of Legend type template: Yes, some people overused it and tried slap it on everything, but used correctly it does have it's place, and can be neat flavor-wise.

Please yes! YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!

Yeah this is pretty amazing, but I can't help but be slightly disappointed that this isn't part of a larger hardback Manual of the Planes type book.

Are we going to be getting our fair share of high CR beasties in the 3rd Bestiary?

Shame about the time frame for epic rules. I can only hope that when they come out that they are not watered down tripe (like those god "rules", upthread).

We're years away from that, in any case.

While I do hope some day to stat out demigods like the demon lords and so on, statting up combat stats for full-on deities like Lamashtu or Iomedae or Desna will remain exceedingly unlikely.

padmeyourbreakingmyheart.gif :(

I think that everybody who runs around saying "Yes! Epic rules! Please!" should answer two questions:

a) how many epic games did you play in?
b) how many epic games did you GM?

Also, you could reflect on what level is the game most balanced at (hint: that's not the later levels), why does PFS cap out at level 12 and take a look at "AP deaths" thread and observe how many more deaths are reported for early levels than late ones.

All this could help you reach the conclusion I have: high level play is something everyone gets easily excited about, but in the end there's very little of it happening.

A) 4.

B) 3.

Frankly, I don't see the point of this question. Basically you're saying "Hey guys, you don't really want epic rules! I know this, and if you *really* stop to think about it, you'll see I'm right!"

I believe it's a chicken/egg thing, really. Epic rules have been notoriously shoddy for, well, ever really. Only the "diehard" epic fans suffer through the rules, trying to etch out truly mythic adventures. I believe it's due to the underwhelming rules that people tend avoid epic like the plague; of course that's not the only reason (some people simply don't like epic, everyone's style of play is different, yadda yadda), but that certainly doesn't help.

But, Paizo could turn that around to some extent by making a robust set of rules for epic. Because, like or not, you absolutely can have adventures at the epic/mythic level that simply aren't possible at the lower levels. And people who enjoy that style of play should have a Paizo-level style of rules to work with (read: high quality, flavorful, well thought out).

After an epic book, and a planar book, the fey book would be next on my list of wants.

To be clear, I would absolutely pay for this consumer table top RPG product with legal tender.

Agreed, the flavor in Paizo's products is second to none.

Why don't people want stats for gods? One of my favorite things to do in the old 3.5 days when multiple people didn't show up for a session was to pick gods out of faiths and pantheons (FR) and have two dieties go at it. Only Mystra was off-limits, because she could theoretically deny her opponent access to the weave, thus ending that combat quickly. Those were some very fun fights.

Yep.

One of the (many) things that I disliked about 4ed is how dry the MM's are. Here's a stat block, go. Snooooooze. Why am I mentioning that? Because one of the (many) things I loved about 3ed, and now PF, is that actually *reading* the books, specifically the MM's, is fun. Even if game night got cancelled, reading about monster (or god) stats, having them battle each other, statting out your own beings, it was all good, fantastic fun, and a great diversion.

I'm definitely in support of stats for the gods. Simply because everyone's play-styles are different, and it's better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it.

If I want an epic campaign that has a fight against a god, then I'll need stats for that. If I don't want that sort of campaign, then having stats for gods is a moot point.

Now, to be clear, a "monster book of gods" sounds rather dry - like the sort of thing that reduces deities from being, well, god-like to being just high-statted monsters.

Personally, I think that Paizo could make stats for gods that doesn't focus on presenting them as little more than a collection of stats. Personally, I'd be in favor of having a set of supplements - released after the Epic/Mythic book - that detail each god's religion and church in more detail, but from a top-down perspective, rather than the bottom-up perspective of Gods & Magic or Faiths of Purity.

For example, this sort of book on Asmodeus could have more than just stats, but also listings for his primary (and secondary, tertiary, etc.) lieutenants and divine servitors. Who in his religion is in charge of sending omens? What defenses are in place around his divine realm? What are some of his long-term plans for defeating enemy gods? What intrigue is brewing in his infernal palace? Who compromises his "strike team" for dealing with threats, and what are their backgrounds and motivations?

Epic-level opponents - to say nothing of deities - should be multifaceted, interesting characters. Give them a support system (like a religion) and each one practically becomes a supplement unto themselves, with so many other characters, items, motivations, and other great potential. And yes, they have a stat block too for when you finally have your group get past all of that and reach the god himself.

Making the gods into nothing more than a stat block is, quite simply, doing it wrong. I think, however, that Paizo could do it right.

Excellent post, and I fully agree.

A consequence of giving gods concrete stats is that a certain level, the PCs will, at some point, exceed their power level. And a bit further down the line, deities become the new kobolds...instead of going into a cave and clearing out the kobolds, you go into a plane and clear out the pantheon.

Starsunder wrote:

Also, what's this level 99 nonsense? James has always said that there would be a hard level cap, and that its possible it would be 36-40, or thereabouts.

Which will lead to just as much demand for a post-Mythic book as we have now for a post-20th level book. Frankly, with some of the demon lords having been listed as being barely beyond CR 20, if you're going to have a hard cap....why not use 20th level?

Hogwash, on both accounts, mostly.

First of all, if there is a hard cap and the powers are statted out thoughtfully and properly, then you wont have any single PC's rivaling a god in power. Although quite frankly, a 36-40 level character is only mortal in the strictest sense of the word. They are for most intents and purposes demigods. And if a group of demigod level power PC's use meticulous planning and thought to defeat a god, then good on them.

Second, hey, if Paizo wants to create mytic rules after the epic set, that's
awesome. As someone upthread suggested, a divine version of Kingmaker
where you foster and grow a faith/religion would be amazing.

Also, I dunno about yours, but my bestiary says that demon lords and the like start at CR 26, and go up from there. That's not exactly "barely beyond 20th".

Starsunder wrote:

No offense, but a feat every million xp sounds dreadfully boring.

Killing Rovagug with a single hit because you're 99th level sounds dreadfully boring to me.

Well then its a good thing I've never said anything about killing gods in one hit, amirite?

C'mon man, its even in the post you selectively quoted from: killing gods (or hell, just defeating them) should require expert strategy, planning and preparation to do. Embarking on amazing, harrowing quest to undermine and disrupt their faith and followers, thus weakening them; obtaining the proper artifacts, luring them to the perfect location where they are weakest, etc.

Nothing as mundane as "I swing, you die, gimmie god loot". Use your imagination.

Also, what's this level 99 nonsense? James has always said that there would be a hard level cap, and that its possible it would be 36-40, or thereabouts.

I personally think the power curve should drastically flatten after 20th level (frankly, my suggestion is that levels cease at 20, and you get an extra feat every one million XP). And I also think that some creatures, such as gods, arch-devils, demon lords, etc should always remain a bit beyond the power level of PCs. If you can defeat a god at a certain level, it's not a god, it's just a high-CR monster. Golarion has a few instances of god-slaying, yes. But I'd rather those be the result of extensive planning and some sort of plot device than simply a case of the mortal's power level exceeding that of the god.

No offense, but a feat every million xp sounds dreadfully boring.

As far as gods being high CR creatures, well that depends on your definition of what a god is. Frankly, I think making them all-powerful creatures is a little wonky, considering there are multiple gods (how can you have more than one all-powerful creature?). All power is relative, after all. And there is nothing saying that god slaying has to be a pure hack-a-thon. Careful planning, manipulation, and strategy can also play major roles.

But to each his own.

Heh, figures - I usually qualify such statements. I've said it many times - there's multiple campaign styles. One interpretation is that mortals can become a god and gods can be killed in some manner that is relevant to game play. Note that it's not the one I use in my high-level games - I use another interpretation - the gods just 'are' beyond mortal ken. Neither's right or wrong, it's all how you want to play the game.

In any case, what I meant was I don't think anyone is calling for the stats for the big names in the Golarion pantheon (but it sounds like I was incorrect) - and regardless of whether anyone does call for them, it's pretty darn unlikely that Paizo will every supply them.

Rules for statting out powers such as demon lords, archdevils, demigods, uber-scary Spawn of Rovagug, even nastier Tane than the jabberwock, etc. ... sure, and I'm looking forward to it.

Apologies if the tone of my previous post seemed overly aggressive; its easy for me to become very defensive about the subject of epic rules and stats for powers. Your absolutely right in that there's multiple ways to play the game, and no single way is right. It just irritates me beyond reason when I see statements like "epic rules are completely unnecessary!" or "god stats are stupid cause gods are all powerful and beyond mortals forever and always and it takes away from their mystery!!", which is total bunk because that is absolutely not the case for all campaigns.

Even if Paizo don't wanna stat up the official gods of Golarion, I hope we receive rules so that those of us that wants them can use them.

At least they have the advantage of being able to do it right and provide epic rules and *then* power rules, unlike WotC doing it bass ackwards.

+1

But I don't think there's any concerns there - nobody's
really calling for stats for the gods. Planar powers and
demigods, maybe, but not the gods.

Speak for yourself. I absolutely am calling for god stats eventually. By all means make epic happen first (or at the same time), but I want god stats to happen.

The gods aren't all powerful. They can be made (meaning mortals can find ways to become a god), and they can be killed.

Although I would extend this request beyond just gods, and say that I want rules to create different types of powers (gods, planar lords, primal fey, etc).

It should also be noted that by "epic" I don't mean "highly dramatic." I mean "of a scope that sub-epic levels can't do justice." That's the sort of feeling you get from such things as...

Fighting gods
Becoming a god (and having a mortal religion to oversee...a divine version of Kingmaker, perhaps?)
Battling entire armies by yourself
Having spells/powers that cause huge collateral damage (e.g. a city or more)

Fighting a group of orcs at lower levels can be made to feel dramatic. But taking on an army of orcs one million strong, led into battle by their god...and actually being able to win? That's EPIC!

This man....this man knows what time it is.

A divine version of Kingmaker? Hook it to my veins!

Battling armies? Freakin A, man.

Having spells that cause huge collateral damage? Sounds like a spell that a certain archmage cast way back in Netheril in the FR days of yore...

I have complete faith in Paizo to make epic (mythic) rules completely awesome and "done right", I just hope that the various rulers of the planes (the demon lords, Lords of the Nine, etc.) are of a proper power level in relation to outright gods, and not completely neutered like they were in 3.0.

James Jacobs wrote:

I've wanted to do a guidebook to high-level play as long as I've wanted to do a post-20th level book; combining them into one book is actually a REALLY good idea.

I very much support the idea of toning down the "epic" in epic level. And I very much like the sound of this book.

+1

Depends on what is meant by "toning down".

I would much rather see an entire section of the book dedicated to explaining in depth how to run and play in an epic game, similar to what James was talking about, than to neuter epic from "EPIC!!!" to "...epic...I guess...maybe..".

But I trust Paizo to do both the game, and epic levels in particular, justice.

The ELH has been discussed, and is supposed to get done one day. That day just happens to be more than a year down the road. I wouldn't mind an epic level book either, but I want it to include rules for deities, and similar beings also. I also want it to be done correctly, even if I will only get to use it once or twice.

+1

Rules for deities would be much appreciated as well. If your gonna do it, go all out is what I say.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

My want of an epic level book from Paizo is bordering on critcal mass.

This and a great, big hardback cosmology book and I'd be in rpg heaven.

Take my money Paizo!

What are the chances that we could get a few more higher level azatas? I think the highest CR is 17 (the brijidine in Bestiary II). I would love to see a CR 20 (or higher!) azata.

So, can we expect more of these critters in the Bestiary 3?

1. Epic Handbook--Please, this must happen!

2. Hardback planar handbook--Fleshing out the cosmos and detailing how to create your own cosmologies.

3. Bestiary--As long as Paizo can continue to come up with amazing monsters, both in mechanics and variety, I'll keep buying these. One can never have too many monsters.

Starsunder wrote:

I'm sure guns are in there somewhere.

Maybe your thinking of FF7? Two characters used gun-blades and one used a shotgun.

No, I know there are guns in 7. I just don't particularly like 7. ;)

Basically I was just saying that although my kneejerk reaction is to ban guns in my fantasy games, my fav FF makes use of technology (steampunk, in other words). Guns could easily fit in there.

Generally speaking, I don't care for guns in my campaign setting...but then I think of my favorite Final Fantasy, which is 6.

Let's see, ninjas? Check (Shadow)

Samurai? Check (Cyan)

Guns? I'd say yes. Although I don't know if I can remember a gun per se, I do remember chainsaws, autocrossbows, mech suits, bio blasters, etc. I'm sure guns are in there somewhere.

Can't wait for this book!

I know that I have already posted my official wish list, but I have to chime in again and throw in another vote for the linnorms.

Primordial dragons favored perhaps by ancient powers = awesome.

Several of the OGL epic monsters would make really good Tanes.

EDIT: I seem to recall a three-headed chameleon cat, for example...

YESSSS!!!!