Sparrow's page

Some people do not hear so well. Some people can not hear at all.

Any requirement or expectation that people use some sort of voice chat program leaves all of those people out in the cold.

I am not saying that I am one of those people, but anyone could be.

I had a bad experience with a guild one time because of their decision to require voice chat for some things.

Unfortunately, it goes back to what they say about the view never changing if you aren't the lead dog.

That was the only "real" guild that I ever joined in any game, and in every other game that I have played, it was a thing that kept me from joining other guilds.
Not that they required voice chat, but because they could, and I wondered why I should work for the guild and help other people out and donate gear to the guild vault and all of that when, in the end, my reward could be getting throw to the side if not just thrown out because I won't use voice chat.

Maybe I am just not cut out for this sort of thing.

I want to re-post something that I posted in this thread.

"I am wondering about something, though....

Patrons at this level will receive a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to play once the game hits Open Enrollment, a one month game subscription, and a New Player Pack of consumables. In addition, you will be made a member of the Goblin Squad. Goblin Squad members will be identified with a special icon on the Goblinworks messageboards, currently on paizo.com and later on goblinworks.com. The Goblin Squad will receive special alerts letting them know about new information first: announcements, blog posts, concept art, etc. We’ll give special priority to Goblin Squad members throughout the development process. This is your chance to identify yourself to us and to the community as a key supporter of Pathfinder Online.

Emphasis mine.

Now on to my donation level...

Patrons at this level get all the Loremaster rewards including a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to become an Early Enrollee in the Beta, a three-month game subscription, a New Player Pack of consumables, and a Pathfinder Alliance Pack. Patrons at this level will be invited to join Early Enrollment in the order that they pledged this level. The first 2,000 will be invited into month number one of Early Enrollment. Once we have reached 2,000 patrons at this level, the next 2,000 will get invites to month two, with the next 2,000 getting invites for month three and so on through the ninth month of Early Enrollment.

Again, emphasis mine.

I am not trying to cause a fuss, but if you run this back, I should get a 3 month sub (now raised to four months) and a new player pack of consumables, whatever that is, for donating at the $100.00 level, and in addition, get an additional 1 month sub and another new player pack of consumables because my donation also gave me the rewards for the previous tiers, which includes the Adventurer rewards.

The new player consumables pack is probably not going to be a big deal.
That extra month, though, is another matter."

Just think that it is something that you may want to look at.

MTX is probably the simplest way to go.

In order to keep the racial choice upon character creation meaningful, though, they could limit the availability of the MTX and make them very specific.

It's not fair to say that a person made a choice if they created a Human character rather than a Tiefling if Tieflings weren't in the game at that time.

But they could put a one time MTX transformation into a Tiefling on sale in the store for a month after they introduce Tieflings into the game.

People that want to be a Tiefling can't sit on their hands. They will have to buy the change in a fairly short time if they want to transform an existing character. After that, they would have to roll a new toon, just like everyone that comes into the game after that time.

By limiting the transformations to just the new races it still maintains a level of meaning to that initial racial choice, too.
You can't change from whatever you are to anything else, only into the newly introduced races.
Choosing a race at launch means that you character is never going to be able to be any of the other races that were available to choose.

As stated: The game is going to be a F2P hybrid.

Training will cost money. You get training time with a sub or you can buy it in chunks via MTX.

This was covered a few posts up if you want to take the time to read (the "Pay2Win query" link in AvenaOats post should be quite enlightening for you), and if you are in a reading mood, go to the Goblinworks site and read their blogs where they cover all of this and more in greater detail.

In another thread, Ryan talks about players gaining the services of a dragon...

In that context, let's talk about the dragon thing.

Getting a dragon into a combat should be heck of a lot of work, and not something that a single character could likely accomplish. One path might be finding a dragon's lair, capturing a dragon egg, building a dragon egg hatching structure, bringing the egg through to hatching, keeping a baby dragon alive, learning how to train that dragon, bonding that dragon with one or more characters, keeping a juvenile dragon alive, learning how to train the dragon with combat-useful abilities, keeping an adult dragon alive, getting the dragon into a combat zone, and directing it successfully amidst the chaos and confusion of a battlefield.

That might represent months or years of effort by dozens of people. Having exerted that effort, the reward would be a pretty damn effective weapon system. The reward is that you're...

So looking at this, I just see pets as another type of gear or structure.

At the high end it's a big deal. People will be shelling out a lot of money and spending a lot of time to get a dragon ally, and if the dragon is slain, then it is going to be a big hit.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The trick is how to make lower-end pets worthwhile as more than just cannon fodder.

I get that a necromancer might build an army of zombies or skeletons and just send them out to die, but a druid, ranger, sorcerer, and wizard might be more concerned for the well-being of their companions/familiars than that.

I have been thinking about this for a while (no, really... Far longer than I have any reason to) and I have an idea, but it pretty much transforms the pets into magic items with an upkeep that provide different types of buffs for the players.

In this regard, those pets would be clearly different from other types of fodder that players may wish to exploit, no matter how impressive that fodder may be.

Onishi, you're drilling down and going into areas that, while are valid, are totally missing the premise of my point. My point being a high level, a macro level and you went micro.

Well I suppose I'm missing your higher level macro point then, on any level, things that are easy to do, can be done safer etc... suffer from high amounts of overubundane within the worlds. As a result profit per time spent, is drastically lower.

I am missing it, too, I think.

If something is easy to get, then more people will get it. This will impact the market.

If they vary the time that it takes to harvest different things they may be able to offset the commonality of some activities, but only to a degree.

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As for the AI matter, let's not make this personal. As far as I know I have never discussed my personal view on PvPing with you. Lets talk in generals. That established my point was that trying to make out that PVP's "riskiness" is grounds for generating more wealth in my view is false as an AI can be created that puts up an tougher fight (read: even more risk) than the majority of humans. Developers choose not to do so, but it can be done. (and no, I'm not suggesting they do so with PFO, I'm just pointing the fact out)

You set up a premise, I asked a question.

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from. If you see that as an attack, then this isn't going to be very productive.

Let's see what I was responding to...

As long as it allows the avenue for a player then it isn't broken in my mind. The real point is that I do not subscribe to the line of thought that being in a PvP area is more risk because of other players attacking you and so you should get "more" or "better". "Different" rewards, sure.

I posted previously that you could set up a merchant enterprise without ever setting foot outside of a safe area.

But whether you subscribe to the thought or not, extra risk is going to add extra cost.
Not only are they looking at losing time when they have to stop harvesting to defend themselves, but they will be looking at the cost of combat consumables and the occasional losses that they will have if they are defeated and looted.

Travel time also adds to the cost.
If you are 2 minutes from market when you harvest your resources and someone else is 10 minutes from market, then they lose productivity in travel time.
They have to charge more money for their stuff to maintain the same income/unit of time. Just like time spent dealing with hostiles.

There can be things in safe areas that no one can find anywhere else, but since everyone can grab those things at no risk, they just aren't going to be worth much.

While it hasn't been done in a major MMO yet, AI can be programmed to be even tougher without "cheating" and thus an even greater Risk vs, Reward option.

People's perception will vary.

When does AI stop being "tough" and start "cheating"?

If I see a lone mob 50 meters from any other mobs and attack them, but every mob in the vicinity starts racing towards me, is that 'cheating'?

If players can consume potions in a fight to restore health, is it cheating if a mob does the same?
The person that thought that they had the gryphon beaten until it suddenly healed up may disagree with you if you say no.

If they are going to expand the 'safe' areas then that automatically shrinks the 'open' areas.
How far out should these 'safe' areas extend into the wilderness?
How much of the game should be built into the 'safe' areas and how much in the 'open' areas?

And this discussion has been limited largely to harvesting, but what about empire-building? Shouldn't people with that interest be able to enjoy it from the luxury of a 'safe area' as well?

Should people that wish to play a diplomatic role be able to negotiate peace between to NPC kingdoms, where they won't have to worry about being attacked by other players as they venture through the battlefields that exist between the two nations?

There might even be a few players who could be such an AI too. But that number would be tiny.

Players can not be AI and AI can not be players.

If you mean that maybe they can let some players have a chance to play a monster for a day, then you are still fighting the same human intelligence that you would be if they were playing their character.

If that is the case, why not just deal with other player characters from the start?

If it's not, then what do you mean by players being "AI"?

As long as it allows the avenue for a player then it isn't broken in my mind. The real point is that I do not subscribe to the line of thought that being in a PvP area is more risk because of other players attacking you and so you should get "more" or "better". "Different" rewards, sure.

While it hasn't been done in a major MMO yet, AI can be programmed to be even tougher without "cheating" and thus an even greater Risk vs, Reward option.

There might even be a few players who could be such an AI too. But that number would be tiny.

In low risk areas there will be no shortage of people willing to harvest whatever resource.

Resources located in higher risk areas are going to have fewer people working them.

The result is that they could put a diamond and gold mine in a safe zone and a copper mine out in no man's land, and copper would end up being more valuable than gold or diamonds absent some market manipulation.

Nothing is stopping a player from becoming a wealthy merchant that has never left the city/safe areas, but expecting to be able to harvest everything for yourself without ever setting foot outside of the city/safe areas is unrealistic, I think.

If it is all right there for everyone to grab at little or no risk, then how is any of it valuable?

Your proclaimed willingness to fight against AI (and claiming that they could make smarter AI for just that purpose) for resources but not other players just makes me ask why?

I will make this statement, and I will stand by it 100%: Open World PVP has not enhanced the play experience, or made the play experience more enjoyable for the bulk of players, in any MMO. Ever.

The closest successes to date were Dark Age of Camelot and UO. UO Backed off this model a few years into it's cycle, with the introduction of the "shards" of Felucca and Trammel. Dark Age backed off it and finally implemented Cooperative servers, which were a huge success.

Every MMO to date, without exception, has either backed off this model or, to put it rather bluntly, failed.

Except for EVE.

And maybe a couple more, but I am not plugged in to all of the MMO comings and goings.

I would start a list of all of the 'themepark' consensual PvP only games that have "failed", but I really don't have the time. ;-)

So, in a word I state simply "no." I firmly stand against Open World PVP on a whole, or at a minimum state that it needs to be on dedicated servers for this sort of behavior. If people want to be jerks and/or play with jerks, they can do it on a server I don't play on.

If people want to be jerks, they will have to be jerks out in the wilderness where there aren't going to be guards ready to crush anyone that decides to attack someone else.

PvP may be there for the people that want it, but it doesn't mean that everyone wants it, and it doesn't mean that it is going to happen everywhere.

Why does this bother me, and why not just quietly not support it? Because to me the direction of this Kickstart is reminiscent in my mind of what another company did, which lead to the creation of another company that followed a "path" the fan community loved. Needless to say, the first company didn't really make the impact they hoped for and are playing catch-up to the company who found a better "path".

If you are trying to imply that Goblinworks is taking the Pathfinder Online game in the direction of some sort of 4E MMO, then who is going to be playing the part of Paizo here?

I don't get the comparison at all (and not everyone hates 4E).

They are trying to raise money. To have them offering novels and Pathfinder game material and musical soundtracks doesn't mean that they are not working on the MMO.

It means that they are trying to reach out to people that might be on the fence about MMOs.
People that do not play MMOs but that do enjoy fantasy novels might decide to help out and donate a few bucks to get that novel.

People that like Pathfinder but not so much MMOs may have been convinced to donate to the tech demo to get the Thornkeep book, with or without autographs.

There is MMO stuff in there. There are the free months and the game packs.
Maybe they could offer players some sort of non-combat pet or another, or all sorts of exclusive in-game goodies, but that is a double-edged sword.... If they have their MMO people spending time working on extra stuff just to give away to supporters, then it actually takes away time that they could have spent getting the game ready.

As others have said, I expect that stuff when GW moves the game to it's own site.

Now that the game is going to happen, I would wager that it is 'in the works', but since we are looking at 1.5-2 years until they even start letting people in for the beta, I can't imagine that it is a pressing issue.

Maybe 6 months? That would still leave at least a year before the first players will be creating permanent characters.

I am wondering about something, though....

Patrons at this level will receive a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to play once the game hits Open Enrollment, a one month game subscription, and a New Player Pack of consumables. In addition, you will be made a member of the Goblin Squad. Goblin Squad members will be identified with a special icon on the Goblinworks messageboards, currently on paizo.com and later on goblinworks.com. The Goblin Squad will receive special alerts letting them know about new information first: announcements, blog posts, concept art, etc. We’ll give special priority to Goblin Squad members throughout the development process. This is your chance to identify yourself to us and to the community as a key supporter of Pathfinder Online.

Emphasis mine.

Now on to my donation level...

Patrons at this level get all the Loremaster rewards including a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to become an Early Enrollee in the Beta, a three-month game subscription, a New Player Pack of consumables, and a Pathfinder Alliance Pack. Patrons at this level will be invited to join Early Enrollment in the order that they pledged this level. The first 2,000 will be invited into month number one of Early Enrollment. Once we have reached 2,000 patrons at this level, the next 2,000 will get invites to month two, with the next 2,000 getting invites for month three and so on through the ninth month of Early Enrollment.

Again, emphasis mine.

I am not trying to cause a fuss, but if you run this back, I should get a 3 month sub (now raised to four months) and a new player pack of consumables, whatever that is, for donating at this level, and in addition, get an additional 1 month sub and another new player pack of consumables because my donation also included the Adventurer rewards.

The new player consumables pack is probably not going to be a big deal.
That extra month, though, is another matter.

So, this stuff:

Loremaster - patrons at this level get all the Music Lover rewards. In addition, you will recieve a PDF or e-book of a Pathfinder novel which takes place in the Crusader Road area where Pathfinder Online will start out, and will showcase the storylines that will be in effect at the start of the game. You'll also receive a 32-page PDF sourcebook providing all the details about Fort Indomitable, the second Pathfinder Online starter town.

I hope this stuff will still be available to the Golarion geeks, such as myself, who aren't interested in the MMO.

Well, no one ever said that you had to play the MMO. ;-)

That was pretty neat looking.

Has nothing to do with Pathfinder Online, and doesn't look like they will meet their funding goal unless some money starts showing up fast, but it looked neat.

Yeah, just saw this in my inbox.

Yay. :-)

I just wish that I could merge my Goblin Squad status and my Crowdforger Pioneer investment and become a Goblin Pioneer. ;-)

I hope we don't see more free months. I would rather see more reasons to pay more for more benefits.

I would really like to see the ability to stake claims for a settlement area for people who pledged at the guild level and stake claims for an area to put a home or business for people who pledged at the 100, 175, or 1000$ level.

We know structure building likely wont be in at the start but I really would rather claim GL's hex before whenever it get released. Not have some tiny clan start building on the hex we laid unofficial claim to 5 minutes before we do.

They could give us items that can be used to stake claims during the last week of each wave of crowd forging. Those items would keep that building spot safely under our control until 1 week after structures are released. That gives each wave time to select their territory before claims can be made, and a reason claims are useful even for a chaotic evil clan that will burn out anyone in their way.

No one's "claim" is stronger than their ability to defend their turf.

Even if they awarded claims there would be people having to fight for their little patch of land at every turn.

If someone 'claims' a spot that you want, you are free to try and take it from them through either diplomacy or force of arms.

Besides, if they gave out claims, there would be all sorts of drama once the game launched and people realized that their claim was in a terrible location.

Not to mention people that might think that a claim meant that they could build a homestead in the frontier and their little group of 6 would be safe because it was "their land".

When a group of bandits decided to use their homestead as a campfire for their first annual marshmallow, weenie, and settler roast, they may get angry.

Sparrow wrote:

I did think that the guy looked odd.

Maybe it's just the art style, but his posture (and maybe build) seemed strange to me.

I think he was a bit blocky in build and in the face. This is a completely blind impression as I am not familiar with Pathfinder's cast of NNPCs. If he is muscular, he needs to be "looser and well-balanced" - but the sword strikes were wonderful - like a golf follow through.

Think "combat" was choreographed animations by the devs?!

I should have been clearer.... I meant that when someone swung a weapon, that they were sometimes not even particularly close to hitting their enemy.

Sometimes they would swing and the enemy would not react at all in time to the supposed strike.

I wasn't trying to pick apart how they looked swinging their weapons or anything.

But like I said, that wasn't really a focus here.

Grass looked okay. Tower being crushed was okay. Characters looked pretty good (again, except for the guy. Didn't like him).

I'm on the other side of that preference as I would prefer my adventurer to have a visual backpack with torches, rope, slung bow, shovel and bedroll visible on my character.

Which is why I suggested options.

You could equip a belt with 'extras', pants with 'extras', a chest piece with 'extras' and look like you were carrying your whole world around, while others could equip one or more without extras to get just the right amount for each person.

Maybe even have it as a toggle. Every piece of gear would have a version drawn of just the basic gear and a version drawn with extras, and then let players toggle them on or off for each piece.

Looks good overall.

Thought combat was off, but that isn't a finished product, so not much to say there.

I did think that the guy looked odd.
Maybe it's just the art style, but his posture (and maybe build) seemed strange to me.

I also am not a huge fan of characters appearing to carry all of their worldy possessions with them.
This wasn't so much an issue with what was in the demo (though the guy, again, was carrying more than I would like to), but with the artwork on which the designs are being based.

I just hope that that is kept in mind when the art is being done for the different gear.

Some gear carry some excess, other gear without, and then people can at least mix-and-match to get just the right amount of "clutter" for their characters.

I really like this. In AD&D your class level also gave you a title. Some examples are listed here. http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~kel/KDD/Class_XPTitles.shtml

Thieves would progress like such

Rogue->Footpad->Cutpurse->Robber->Burglur->Flitcher->Shar pener->Magsman->Pilferer->Thief->High thief->Master Thief->Guild master

Now i think the titles need to be reworked but, I like the idea of some merit badges giving you titles.

That was my initial thought, too, but I wasn't going to go and get my old 1st edition PHB to list them.

I do wonder if there is some sort of protection for those, though (goes and gets his 1st edition PHB...).

Is anything legally stopping them from letting fighters earn the Veteran, Warrior, Swordsman, Hero, Swashbuckler, Myrmidon, Champion, Superhero, and Lord titles as they level up?

Would there be a problem if a ranger gave himself the "Strider" title?

Okay, I'm in... Again.

The more titles that they can include, and the more ways to include them, the better.

For whatever achievements. Obviously as we advance in level we could earn badges and titles, but for different skills or skill groups and even general game accomplishments as well.

If someone wants to earn the "Goblin Slayer" merit badge and title by killing a ridiculously high number of Goblins, then more power to them.

I think you're wrong. I'm anticipating Pathfinder more than any other MMO EVER. And I've played most of them. But if I don't get in the first month, maybe the second, I'll lose interest fast.

And what will get your interest?

And how long will that keep your interest?

All due respect, but you sound like you might be flighty.
Today you want to play PFO more than anything, but tomorrow?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I'm sure that you aren't. This is why games spike; People want to play them as soon as they come out.

Thing is, many of those same people move on to the next thing so that they can be amongst the first to play it when it launches, too.

When you are looking for people to help shape and develop a game, those aren't the best people to rely upon.

I think you vastly underestimate the MILLIONS of people looking for something different than WoW. I anticipate a monsoon of customers just dying to get into PFO, and then moving on to whatever the newest game is, or continuing to play game x and forgetting about PFO.

Again, many people just do this as a matter of course, not because they got passed over for this round of invitations.

People that do not come when invited are probably not that interested in helping shape the game, so no big loss.
Many of those same people, however, will come into the process whenever the new and shiny has worn off of whatever it was they jumped into because they couldn't jump into PFO.

When given the choice to play one game, or waiting in line to play a better game, well, this is the age of instant gratification. You'll lose a ton of customers. if you turn them away, they'll become someone else's customer.

If PFO is indeed a "better game", then it will still be here when those people that are more interested in immediate gratification than helping test PFO get tired of whatever it is that they jumped into while waiting.

And if they never tire of that other thing, then good for them. I hope that they enjoy themselves.

@Sparrow, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't in the traditional sense. There is a wealth of information about them at Pathfinder Wiki. I don't expect PFO will have long quest chains that reveal the stories of the factions, though.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting any major quest lines or anything.

I would be satisfied with just being able to access a brief history of the groups.

Could be through in-game books, could be the website... I just think that having the info available for people would help for people that want to get into the setting, not just see who has the 'best' stuff.

I don't play Pathfinder, so I don't know anything really about these factions.

I hope that the game provides ample opportunity for people to learn about these organizations in-game.

I thinkt hat a game like this will only work well if you limit the initial amount of players.

This way the most dedicated players will form the community that is so important to an MMO with real interaction.

As more and more people stream in there will be already a social structure that is able to perform the sort of neighborhood watch that is needed to make the game hard on griefers.

That said it is very well possible that not all the die-hard fans can come in at the very start and that waiting for just 30 to 90 days can feel endless.

Well, that's the plan, but how many people will be coming in at a time, and how frequently they will be adding people at the start, are unknown.

As we've said before, we're going to be opening the game to paying players in a nontraditional manner, gating the number of new players into the game at less than 5,000 a month for most of the first year.

This came from the "Time Keeps On Slipping, Slipping, Slipping into the Future!" blog entry on 9-26-2012.

The people that backed the Kickstarter project numbers 4,212.
The Goblin Squad, who are supposed to get priority access, numbers 3,125.

So it really depends upon how many less than 5K that they let in at a time.
Since the earliest days of the game are going to be a combination of live launch and beta, they will need some decent numbers to generate a critical mass for game systems to function.

If I had to bet, I would say that the Goblin Squad will be invited in by month two. Half in the first month (largest donors and most constructive/active on the boards) and then the rest in the second month.
Maybe everyone gets in at the start, but if I am betting, I am betting conservatively.

I am guessing that they will be seting up a registration when they get their site up and running, though, and everyone will still have to do that.
I doubt that someone that committed to the project on Kickstarter but doesn't actually follow through to register will be contacted.
registration on their site is probably going to be required to get consideration to get into the launch/beta.

glad to hear a divercity of answers and a well balanced view of seperate ideas so heres another chip of the cookie i thought of. in factions that offer archatypes or prestiege classes, will the skills be considered a sperate class altogether and null our chances of cpastone abilities or will they double as lvls of original skills. I know it is well away to early to answer this question but it is interesting to consider it if you are planning a cross class or single class avatar...

Capstones are supposed to be a benefit for people that stick to a single class.

A PrC, assuming that such things exist, offers it's own rewards, much like taking the more conventional multiclassing route.
Arguably, PrCs are the most common form of multiclassing, and much of the dipping that occurs does so to facilitate a character qualifying for a PrC.

Providing a capstone reward on top of the 'already better than the regular class advancement rewards' wouldn't fit the bill of what capstones are even there for.

Sparrow wrote:

How does this help anything?

The people that choose to level a single class at a time will still achieve diversity while also getting capstones, but those that choose only diversity will suffer from slower training time.

Maybe you missed something there.

Currently: capstone + diversity later or diversity now + nothing.

Proposed: capstone + diversity later or diversity now + capstone later at a lessened rate.

The choice should be when you achieve one or the other not if you can at all. Because as it stands, it is a non-choice to many.

No, I didn't miss that.

I know that if capstones offer power then it is nothing but a bad choice to multiclass.

But under your system, single-classers are still the only good choice.
Maybe some multiclasser can get some little something diversity-wise faster, but the single-classers end up with their capstones and greater diversity faster.

If it takes 2.5 years to hit 20, then you are making a person that multiclasses through two classes wait until 7.5 years have passed to get those classes maxxed.
The single classer did it in 5 years.

If they are all going to end up in the same place (capstones and diversity), then why shouldn't they get there at the same time?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If capstones will be off-limits to a character that multiclasses mid-training (and this is what was posted in the blog, though it may not be carved in stone), then I do not think that they can offer any power.

Then if someone wants diversity now they can have it, but what they lose is nothing but fluff and thus not a big deal.
They may think later on that they 'should' have delayed diversity in order to get the capstones, but they will still not be missing any power.

A group will not care whether you are capstoned in a class or not because it won't make things any easier if you are.

If capstones do provide power, then I think that the simplest and easiest way to do things would be to just open them up to anyone once they get to level 20 in a class.

No need to slow down multiclass training because their pursuit of diversity and whatever advantages that it offers directly delay the time that it takes for them to get the power that they recieve from the capstones.

Increased training time previously mentioned seems like a fair trade off to me.

Those focused on one path will reach capstone in 2.5 years or 5.0 for two.

Those who branch may still reach capstone but it will take 3.75 or 7.5 for both.

You still have incentive for singular roles, while not penalizing diversity.

It would hopefully scale per level and not blanket the entire arc of both paths. So for a 5 fighter that wants 1 rogue for a low level stealth ability, they may suffer the 50% increased time for that level.

How does this help anything?

The people that choose to level a single class at a time will still achieve diversity while also getting capstones, but those that choose only diversity will suffer from slower training time.

sounds like you are stuck in 3,5 with XP penalty for multiclassing, where the 20% penalty was still hurting you at level 15 for dipping at 2nd level.

No, I am not 'stuck' in anything.

I am talking about this game.

2.5 years after launch someone has a capstone and someone else has 'diversity'.

2.5 years after that they both have diversity but only one of them has a capstone(s).

If the capstone provides real power, then one of those characters is gimped.

Run that out to 10 years and the discrepancy between people with capstones and people without grows even larger, because more people will have more capstones.

But we're completely open to discussion on how big that reward should be and whether that's even the best way to incentivize such behavior.

well,

to sum up my peeve with a capstone:

- do you have an in game explanation for it happening? ("cuz we say so" is rather lame)

- once it's in the code it's fixed and you have to wait 2,5 years to see how the effects go with the players

- good luck trying to balance it with the synergy effects from going multi role

one thing I'd say is a universally limited recource with all players is time.
So if you give single role players an advantage in lerning (synergy for training single mindedly) you can compensate the synergy from the different stuff learned.

People can chose to go fast in a straight line
or go a bit slower and take more turns.

If anywhere in the 2,5 years you think the faster increase in power from going straight doesn't compensate enough(or too much) the faster increase in power from diverification - you can just tweak the time bonus.
Very litte effort in (re-)programming terms I guess.

But the limit with time is as long as the game is around.

Everyone throws out the 2.5 years, but you can still advance your character beyond that time.

So yeah, after 2.5 years character 'A' has diversity and character 'B' has a capstone.

But after 5 years, character 'A' can finish pushing the two classes they they have dabbled in up to 20 and player 'B' can get their capstone in that second class.

Now if capstones provided power, the early jump on flexibility that character 'A' had is forgotten as they are now and forever left behind because they lack that power.

Maybe the 'pure' paladin will have an option to glow with goodness.
Maybe the 'pure' cleric will have a giant glowing holy symbol appear when they turn undead.
Maybe the 'pure' wizard and sorcerer will have unique non-combat 'familiars' that can follow them around.

Maybe any of the 'pure' classes will earn a special title.

You might think that those are not good enough to keep you from looking for flexibility right now, but that is the point, isn't it?

A choice isn't a choice if there is only one reasonable decision to make.
Do you want to diversify or get a title? Do you want flexibility now or some little something later?

Because everyone can have flexibility later.

I am also puzzled as to how they account for a character being able to train up whatever they need to to get to a class capstone and then just start training up other stuff while heading towards a new capstone.

What is the difference between a character that went straight fighter to 20 and then straight wizard to 20 and one that mixed the two classes up as they advanced?

The 'purist' will have capstones, whatever form those take in the end, but how will the 'multiclasser' be more diverse when they get to that point?

I know how they will be more diverse along the way, but unless I am misunderstanding how the skill system will work in relation to classes, I do not see how they will be more diverse after the other character has capped the same two classes.

I can confirm, from personal experience, that sitting watching barmaids all night gets you knowhere. Good money sink though.

Well, it has paid off for me once in a while, but yeah... Major money sink. :-)

How about simply limiting the capstone system to one per character? The one you master first is the one in which you excel.

I suggested that earlier myself.

I think that it would be a way to offer powerful capstones because no one would ever be cut out.

Whichever class you get to 20 first is the one that you get your capstone in. Simple.

Because if I put forth the effort to max out an archetype the way they want, I want that capstone too.

So if there is only one capstone available, then pick that one that you want most and get it.

Every other class that you take skills in would still be allowing you to diversify, and everyone will get there eventually, whether they go straight to 20 in their preferred class or take a bunch of detours along the way.

This is one of most flawed assumptions, and one that's endemic in this thread. The only way this could possibly be true is if you completely eliminate the entirety of the process of getting to that end assumption (aka playing the game for well nigh 4-5 years). If you dip, at any point, from one path to another, you change the equation. You gain access to abilities outside of the scope of the path, and you gain what is arguably the most defining quality of characters in PFO, and that's versatility. If process A is different from process B, the equations are not equal, even if the result appears the same (and even then only by the most reductionist, un-nuanced logic)

I support capstones.

I posted as much multiple times in this thread.

I just wanted to get that out of the way first for the sake of clarification.

And while it is true that 1A+5B+19A is not identical in every respect to 20A+5B, they do both add up the same.

And that is why I have been saying that capstones need to be a whole lot of nothing unless multiclassers can get them.

That diversity that someone gets now is going to give them some flexibility but if it cuts them off from a capstone that offers real power, and the characters that get the capstone can get that same flexibility later, then later on the people that multiclassed early are going to start lagging behind.

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So now I am back where I started:

1) If they include capstones that are just so much cosmetic fluff (animations, FX, titles, etc) then you can enjoy your diversification early and know that you aren't gimped later, but I don't want to hear anyone crying about not getting the shiny version of some ability that the people that did without those extra options early will have.

2) If they include capstones that are powerful, then everyone should have access.

First class you get to 20 would make any individual capstone more rare, and you can grab flexibility now if you want to, but it lengthens the amount of time that it will take you to get the capstone power.

In the end it's a wash. 1A+5B+19A and 20A+5B will both have the same amount of power and flexibility, but the first character will have gotten flexibility earlier, while the second will have gotten the capstone power a little earlier. :-)

@Sparrow

I would hope its more than a hat. I am planning to make a Paladin but, really have no reason to multiclass until i have run out of other things. The fact that I don't want to multiclass and be one awesome class should give me something to compensate for my lack of diversity. Giving me a hat and pushing me out the door isn't going to be cool since after that I am probably going to focus on non-class skills.

I was using a hat reference because Mbando used a hat reference.

You want my ideas? Look higher up on page 4 for my general take.

The big point to take with you, though, is that no matter whether you diversify before you hit 20 in paladin or not, you will be able to diversify because after you hit the paladin capstone you can start working on other skills, even obtaining other capstones.

I do not think that anyone has seriously suggested that silly hats would make excellent capstone rewards.

No matter how GW addresses this, you'll be min/maxing any single class character, just like everybody else. Ain't no one going to assign a "3" to intelligence so they can roleplay a really stupid, yet cheerfully persistent wizard. And no one's taking Point Blank Shot for that same wizard, because she was raised by a retired ranger famed for his bowmanship.

Everyone is going to build their character thoughtfully, trying to make them as effective as possible, and no one is going to pay money to skill up a character they've purposefully gimped. The only question is whether there's going to be a single way to build, i.e. you need to splash-build because synergies are so effective, or you need to single-class because capstones are so effective.

IF GW gets the balance right, so that there are meaningful choices, then it's a design win.

But there is no cap.

You don't stop once you hit 20, you just move on to the next thing and the next.

You can talk about multiclassing because all you get is a stupid hat, but everyone will be able to multiclass. It's only a matter of whether they start diversifying before they get to 20 in a class or if they ride a class to 20 before moving to the next (and the next, and the next, and...).

So yeah, you can go ahead and be that fighter/monk from the start and enjoy whatever that offers you, while someone else may not be there for a couple of years, but when they get there, they will at least be able to wear their stupid hat.

If a character could only get 20 total levels, then yeah, capstones should carry some power to cover for whatever was lost in terms of diversity or power by not multiclassing and/or selecting a prestige class, but that is not the case here.

========================================================================

One option, if I am just throwing random ideas out there, would be to give capstones some real power but only let characters have a single one; Whatever capstone comes with whatever class they get to 20 first.

You could multiclass all you wanted then, and enjoy whatever advantages that offered, but the more you multiclass the longer it takes you to get to 20 and get the power that whatever capstone you would get has to offer.

But as it has been presented, with everyone qualifying for every capstone if they just train up to 20 one class at a time, the capstones really don't need to be more powerful.

A simple reward for people that want it, but nothing that should compel anyone to avoid multiclassing for fear of gimping their character.

But we're completely open to discussion on how big that reward should be and whether that's even the best way to incentivize such behavior.

I think that simply inserting options for alternate animations and FX is fine.

I mean, I don't know all the details so I might be selling it short, but I have been defending capstones in this thread based on them being no big deal.

I am all for a capstoned cleric to be able to get a giant flashing holy symbol to appear over their head when they turn undead if they want it, for example.

But if you let that capstoned cleric turn undead more effectively then it will lead to people asking for for capstoned clerics only for some occasions, and then the slippery slope and group-think take over; Some occasions becomes all occasions, and clerics become every class.

A player should feel free to know that they can multiclass, and while that choice may leave their OCD with an itch that can't be scratched, at least they will know that they didn't make a non-correctable choice that will ultimately make their character mechanically worse than someone that did not make that choice.

One thing I've talked about earlier that I really think would be a good idea for them is identifying some of the things they are going to offer in the microtransaction system and offer the ability to buy them ahead of time. Or maybe just the ability to buy currency for their microtransaction system. This would allow people to give them additional funding now, and give those supporters something that they can use when PFO is released later.

I know personally, if PFO released something like that I would start paying 15$ a month into it as if the game were already released purely to support the project.

This isn't a bad idea... Let people start stockpiling Goblinbucks now to get some more investment into the game earlier, up to an including just opening GoblinMart early...

One thing that The Repopulation is doing, is rewarding early donators with alternative currency, that will be used to purchace things that won't be part of their cash shop.

... And offering some exclusive early-bird fluff doesn't sound like it would hurt, either.

Andius wrote:

You don't need to be an RPer to see the use of a calendar tool integrated into the game. Sometimes members don't like to use external websites so having our forums and the tools I need to schedule events right there where everyone with the game has access to them without having to register to our site... is pretty damn useful.

And I'm hoping it could work both ways. If you become a new member of a guild in-game, then you have automatic access to guild posts out-of-game. And if you set a guild event in the out-of-game calendar, then why not send a notification to concerned players in-game?

These are options that are not available to 3rd party forums. Or at least not without an API.

I am not much of a joiner, as in even if I do join a CC I do not expect it to be one that is much more than just a social club.

That being said, I can only think that it would be irritating that any time someone in my network posted something on their page that I would get an in-game notification.

I think that allowing us to check our 'network' in-game would be more than adequate, but I wouldn't even fight for that.
If I check my network before I log in then I catch up on stuff that I may have missed, and once I am in the game anyone there can tell me anything that I need to know.

In a large network, enough people may be logging in at different times that they could pass along the most recent updates (in the event that someone not playing wants to add something) in chat.

Like the others have said; Pathfinder is the setting. How that setting is presented is flexible.

Star Wars is not just movies, but it also includes games, cartoons, novels, comics, toys, models.... It's all Star Wars, it's just presented differently.

Ravening wrote:

My understanding on character progression differs from what you have as fact 1. Based on the excerpt above, once you have 20 merit badges in a particular archetype you can continue to train in a different archetype and continue to gain abilities. More abilities = more power. I haven’t read any suggestion that abilities will be nurffed after you’ve gained your first 20 merit badges.

They don't have to be nerfed because more abilities do not give more power. They give more options. If used the right options can make you more effective but they do not make you more powerful. I'll give an example.

If you are arming up for the zombie apocalypse and you have a shotgun, then you are given a katana as well. You do not gain more power. You gain a new method of fighting zombies which can be used in addition to the old one. This may make you more EFFECTIVE but not more powerful...

How about if your fighter finds a sword with the 'sneak attack' keyword that allows them to do more damage, but only if they train up some rogue skills so that they can actually access the sneak attack ability?

The person that stays pure fighter never gets that extra back-stab damage, while the person that takes rogue skills does.

Long term benefits? Maybe not, but capstones are said to be 'nice', not must-have.

If someone thinks that backstabbing would be nice to have right now, then the price to pay is the capstone.

Besides, even if class skills are all unique, it's going to be faster and easier to get the early levels (and the flexibility that multiclassing offers) than it is going to be to continue to drive up the skills for the single class.

It's going to be easy for a fighter to drive up a few fighter skills from 0 to 1 or 2. Once you have all of those lower level skills raised up, though, now you have to spend ever more time raising 2s to 3, and then 3s to 4 and so on.

Much faster to start looking for the multiclass payoff, right?

@Sparrow

That is not gratification at all because it skips out on everything I want, thus no gratification.

What you want appears to be everything, and exactly when you want it.

There is nothing wrong with presenting players with a choice.

You say you want to play a fighter/monk, does that mean you want to play a fighter for awhile then play a monk for awhile, or does that mean you want to play a fighter/monk?

It was just an example, but I'll play along...

Depends. Is there a benefit to multiclassing that makes the journey more pleasant for me?

What is the capstone ability that I will trade off for that benefit?

I just have to weigh my options. No different than when I am choosing which skill to train up or what gear I might equip.

If I have come across one to many locked doors that I couldn't get through or locked chests that I couldn't open, then maybe I think that that losing a capstone is worth learning to pick a lock.

It isn't instant gratification because the fun comes from playing your character throughout, not the end state of said character, particularly when there is no end state.

It isn't more gratifying to have those capstones at all, but it's irritating to plainly see that I have met all requirements for something but don't get it because I took my own path and enjoyed playing the game.

But if the requirement is to level a class from 1-20 and not earn any levels in another class then you have not met all requirements unless you do that.

You made a choice that obtaining/advancing certain skills that were not associated with your class were more important than focusing on the requirements to get the capstone ability.

Denying that taking that second class skill is somehow gratifying doesn't change anything.
If that off-class skill (whether it be for a second class, or a third, or fourth, or eleventh) offers no benefit, then you should have no problem waiting until you get the capstone in your current class to start training it up.

I want to have fun playing throughout, but who said that you can only have fun by multiclassing and getting capstones?

So what's more important? Playing the game or having the perfect character?

I don't like the capstone limit not because I want those abilities, but because it makes me feel as though I am being punished for enjoying playing the game.

I don't think that playing, and enjoying, the game precludes my ability to build the character that I want to play.

I do not expect that I will have to have capstones alongside the ability to dip into any of the 11 classes at any time in order to build the character that I want.
If I want a capstone badly enough I will work towards that capstone.

However useful or useless those capstones may ultimately be.

The deal is on the table.

If you refuse to take it it is not a punishment. It means that you felt that the rewards for doing something else were better.

When they start explaining capstones with some useful context then this may be worth revisiting, but as of right now it all looks just fine to me.

To that thought, perhaps an Bar/Church of Cayden might offer a "luck" bonus (translated as combat buffs? increased loot quality in PvE? some inherent bump in stats?). I'd expect delivering a particularly spicey Hops from 3 counties over might earn the boon.

Similarly I'd imagine a player created Inn might attract devotees of the Lucky Drunk, perhaps allowing for the easier access to those boons, but also attracting the the worshippers of Father Skinsaw to poke holes in those barrels, or even particularly stringent aspects of Iomedea's clergy could have a problem with the wonton distribution of libations.

One of two things ends up happening here:

1) This becomes a daily, where the players have to go to a particular NPC vendor in a particular town to purchase a particular item.

or

2) Some player(s) harvest the necessary item(s) and sell it/them for a tidy profit in towns across the region, meaning that '3 counties over' becomes 'right outside the door of the temple', no matter where that temple might be.

This encourages player interaction and initiative, but defeats the intent.

Either way, it's not really going to be optional.
CC leaders will insist on it's members getting buffed up to better do whatever it is that they are supposed to be doing, and people just trying to put together a group for some adventuring are going to see buffed players as superior to non-buffed ones.

I say let the clerics do the buffing, and if they can create potions, they can write up contracts for other players to perform duties in exchange for those potions, allowing them to get their buffs when they need them.

I didn't see in the blog where names were confirmed as unique or non-unique, or whether there would be a single or two-name system.

Did I miss something?

With Ryan saying that they plan on recycling unused names, I would guess that they plan on a unique name system.

Special characters I am okay with as long as there is at least a click to report function.

If someone is willing to risk alienating some other players in order to get their character name just the way that they want it (or to make the best out of a name thatthey wanted but someone else already had) then that is one thing.
If someone wants to try and use them as a way to discourage or avoid being reported for their bad behavior, that is another.

@Sparrow who ninjad me

The answer to your final question, multiclassing isn't instant gratification, it's playing the character I want, the problem comes in when 5 years down the road, if I'm still playing, then my character has achieved everything and is identical to this other character and yet that other character has something I don't, not because he spent money, or because he completed some quest that I didn't, but because he didn't play what he wanted.

It's not punishing me for multiclassing, it's punishing me for playing what I want for 5 years, as opposed to not playing what I want for 5 years.

It's a game, and as such should be enjoyed every minute of playing it. I shouldn't have to spend 5 years playing something just to get to the point of playing what I want. I can garuntee, that no game will get me to play for 5 years without me enjoying it the whole way through.

If you want a fighter/monk, then you can have a fighter/monk and you can have your capstones.

If you do not get the capstones it is because you wanted certain things at a certain time. Instant gratification.

If capstones were some ultimate power then it would be easy to not multiclass. No amount of 'and then I can get this and that ability by training up skills in another class' would be worth it.
This isn't what they have said that they are doing, though, and I wouldn't want to see it because it would take away any true freedom.

By making them a minor, or even inconsequential, thing they are letting you have the freedom to pick your way of levelling up.

Would it really matter if your character doesn't get some flashy FX accompanying some ability if they can use a less flashy version of that same ability anyway?
Does it really matter if some character has access to an emote that you do not get if you were able to level your character the way that you wanted to?

All you have to do is decide whether you want that capstone later more than you want to learn how to pick locks or whatever right now.

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If the capstones are little more than special emotes, or reskins of lower level powers that just come with flashier FX, then what difference does it make?
If you really want the benefit that multiclassing offers, then you will be willing to trade the capstone for it.

If you are so OCD that you can not bear to do without the capstone, then you're going to be complaining about them even if the capstones were nothing but badges that only you could view.

You can ask "Why punish someone that multiclasses?", but I can just as easily ask "Why not reward people that forgo the instant gratification that multiclassing offers?".

Especially if that reward doesn't involve game-balance.

@Sparrow,

I don't think most of the fixation with finding a "WoW killer" is coming from players... I believe it's coming from investors and publishers.

They may want people to believe it, but it doesn't explain why people would post things like "This is going to be a WoW killer" on message boards.

Talking to investors is not the same as talking to potential customers. Who is going to invest inb a company simply because the company says that they want to build a WoW killer?

And if the company says something and the customers pick it up and run with it, like the 'WoW killer' thing, then that is because it means something to those customers.

But that is really neither here nor there.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As far as the 'PvP as content' thing that people are now talking about, I am torn.

I have been killed in EVE for absolutely no good reason (unlesss you consider passing through low-sec space to be a 'good reason').

I didn't like it, but I can't say that it warranted a suspension or a ban.

But how much of the game can someone play if they stick to the 'civilized' area(s) and do not join a CC?
What aspects of the game can they explore?

I just think that there is serious potential for a gang-mentality to take over, and if you are not in a large CC that you are could be in for some tough times... People in the large CCs could kill you for whatever reason (including 'because'), and if you dare seek revenge each and every member of that CC could then kill you whenever they see you for the forseeable future because you 'disrespected' them and are obviously in need of a 'lesson'.

I hope that the devs can find a good way to let players do their own thing within the game but not let them run roughshod over other players while hiding behind the game.

That can be a tough thing to do.

And the Goblin Squad loves you.

Platonically, of course.

Sounds nice.

A few abilities that matter, some specialized utility, keywords on weapons... Good stuff.

I want to see more, of course, but it did make for an interesting read.

Thanks for the updates and the clarifications.