SoulGambit0's page

You can break three digits at level 10 fairly easily. Mr. McPistolero and some Fighters is topping over 500 by level 20.

There is never a reason to not be a Quinggong MOnk. In fact, the baseline monk arguably -is- a Quinggong Monk. IIRC it says that in the actual book. Take Barkskin, at minimum. Potentially also Searing Ray depending on your build.

Buy Munchkin, shuffle its treasure deck, have your players draw treasure cards. Decide what their mechanics actually are on the fly.

Oh, not Haste Boots. Those ones that negate severe terrain. I forget the name. :/

Masterwork Quarterstaff
Masterwork Meteor Hammer
Some Nets
Some Shuriken
Weapon Blanches for those shuriken
Assorted Alchemical Items
Caltrops
Pearl of Power Level 1 -OR- Wand(s) of Mage Armor
Potions of Shillelagh
Potions of Enlarge Person
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in a Pathfinder
Menacing Cestus
Amulet of Mighty Fists appropriate to my build
Belt of +Strength -> Belt of Physical Perfection
Headband of Wisdom
Greater Hat of Disguise
Cloak of Resistance
Eversmoking Bottle + Goz Mask (Not if your using the hat, above)
Haste Boots
Masterwork 7-Branched Sword

Practically speaking, "Sandbox Campaign" means either tons of prep-time from the GM (See Kingmaker for what's required) or it means a normal game that is exceptionally side-quest friendly. Give them an overarching goal that isn't time sensitive and then string them along with other time / situation-appropriate sidequests.

All you really -need- in Melee is Feral Mutagen. Here's a basic template for levels 1-10. You basically have three free feats. Traditionally these are Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting. However, if you are taking Feral Mutagen and have the point-buy to support it, I'd advise against that rout. Switch hit ftw.

1. Free Feat OMG!
2. Smoke Bomb
3. Stink Bomb
4. Feral Mutagen
5. Free Feat! OMG!
6. Free Feat! OMG!
7. Tumor Familiar
8. Fast Bombs
9. Force Bombs
10. Sticky Bombs

Ditch Strength, focus on Wisdom. This will not work if you are starting from level 1. You have a few options:

1. Take level as a Cleric of Iori and take the Guided Hand feat.
2. Take the Ki Diversity feat and be a Drunken Master.
3. Be a Sensei.
4. Ideally combined with one of the above, consider Master of Many Forms. Use Tiger Style + An Elemental Style to stack tons of Wis-Based damage. Nothing like dealing (Unarmed + 3d6 +Wis Mod*3)*2 damage by level 10.

Your chief advantage will be your truly obscene amount of AC, especially if you can snag Mage Armor from an ally.

In the case of multiclassing, is it one archetype per class or one period? Also, starting distance?

Wow. 32pt buy? Any race? So we'll have a bunch of MoMF (Crane Style) / Zen Archers, and a whole bunch of Svifneblin.

What's the rule on pre-buffing, and are the rules written down anywhere for easy reference?

Technically, can't anyone with Dispel Magic or Dispelling Bomb do so?

So, the Alchemist. It's one of the most versatile classes out there, capable of specializing in almost anything. It's a good design, but that means there's a lot of possibilities that have to be considered. I'm curious what some good RP archetypes and what good mechanical archetypes people can come up with regarding the Alchemist.

Some I have come up with:

Roles:
- (Mad) Scientist
- (Holistic) Doctor
- Traveling Salesmen
- Dr. Moroe / Transmogrifier
- Philosopher
- Tinkerer
- (Military) Demolitionist

Rolls:
- Bomber (damage-focused)
- Smoker
- Melee
- Summoner
- Tank

Sub-Rolls:
Optional add-ons that require minimal investment and can't be the focus of the build.
- Healer
- Party Buffer
- Party Trapfinder / Rogue
- Poisoner

I always liked bleed damage. In early levels, you can one-shot a character--they just don't know they are dead yet. Its great for Rogues who go solo, or if the whole team is on board with the hit-and-run thing.

It's also a very assassin-y ability, cool for flavor.

As someone else stated, its cool for concentration checks and tracking people who are supposed to run. Yes, eventually special stuff counter-acts that, but you have to reach that level first.

Sometimes I think the cost to get the bleed damage is much too high though (often a feat for ~2 Bleed). Sadly, there are no items or ointments that'd just grant bleed damage.

But then, I'm a fan of nets, caltrops, and smoke pellets, so YMMV.

Just wanted to give a heads up. Due to lack of interest, I don't foresee this project coming to fruition. No one seems available to design floors, which is probably the key part of this project. If I get the manpower I need (especially for floors), I'm definitely still interested in finishing this. I'll even probably design some floors myself regardless, but that'll be constrained by time.

Ten Steps to avoiding being Naruto(tm)!

Step 1. Don't wear orange
Step 2. Don't want to be any type of ruler
Step 3. Don't ever mention you are a ninja.
Step 4. Don't take Mirror Image.
Step 5. Don't ever describe your character as glowing red with rage.
Step 6. Do be well adjusted in society, without pranking.
Step 7. Do make Diplomacy Rolls without beating someone up.
Step 8. Do occasionally bluff or use tactics.
Step 9. Do care about other people's thoughts, opinions, and dreams.
Step 10. Do brutally murder any ally that joins a Michael Jackson clone instead of obsessing over him.

Sabatour is actually what you take for damage. Combine Immolation Bomb with... anything. At level 4 (Pyro) it lets you deal 3d6+Int Mod per round for 3 rounds. Whatever you hit is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

Also, don't get Infusion at level 2, trust me. You don't have enough spell slots. Infusion should come in around level 4. If you go control get Smoke and then Stink bomb at levels 2 and 3. If you go damage get Tanglefoot (or an Element), Immolation, and Complex Bombs at levels 2, 3, and 4.

And, man. Paragon is... just fantastic. Absolutely fantastic! Among other things, that gives you any Discovery you qualify for on-command! Know you're fighting Fire Elementals? Learn Frost Bombs.

As a GM you can actually "cheat." Keep in mind that traps have a CR rating, so you can just add a trap of X CR as though it were a seperate minion. It's a great way to make a pair of NPCs have more variance, especially if they are reoccurring.

Wow LoreKeeper! That was absolutely fantastic! Great detail.

Dayne: Feel free to just submit a stock character. You're more than welcome.

We also need people to help design floors. Is there anyone interested in flexing their GMly imagination?

Ninja + Crane Style gives you everything you're looking for. You don't even need to multiclass, although two or three levels in Master of Many Styles Monk will help a lot with your feats (third level with the right Archetype would let you use Wis for Ki). Ninja grants you great acrobatics, sneak attack, stealth, and at level 10 they get an instant-death ability.

What level are you starting at?

I have a high level character who, through plot, became very very interested in Grafting. Fleshcrafting Poison seems to be Pathfinder's equivalent to Grafting, so I'll probably be picking up that feat. Assume that the CR can be no more than half the Caster Level, rounded up.

What type of monster abilities/stuff would you go for? What's flavorful and interesting? To an extent, I'll be playing Megaman, but this also opens up seeking particular monsters for their parts.

I'm not looking to hardcore power-game this (which is entirely possible), I'm looking for neat/flavorful things that can be done. Ultimately, the price would be considered a guideline and the GM as well as myself would adjust it up or down based on its power.

I assume by "Rogue" you mean stealthy? I was toying around with something similar. You should consider a Gnome Alchemist (Grenadier + Saboteur). Saboteur gains an invisibility-like Mutagen instead of the normal Mutagen. Small Size is a +4 to Stealth. Although I wouldn't combine it with Saboteur, you take the Chameleon Discovery to add another +4 (+8 at level 10), and has great RP potential.

If you do smoker I'd go:

Trait: Something for Stealth
1. Skill Focus (Stealth)
2. Smoke Bombs
3. Stink Bombs
4. Infusion
5. Immolation Bomb
6. Complex Bombs
7. Hellcat Stealth
8. Fast Bombs
9. Force Bombs
10. Sticky Bombs

By level 10 you'll have a +3 (Trained) +1 (Trait) +10 (Ranks) +3 (Dex) +6 (Skill Focus) +4 (Small Size) +5 (Chameleon Mutagen) +5 (Shadow Armor) = +37 Stealth and access to things like Greater Invisibility.

If you can wait ALL THE WAY for level 12, you can get Hide in Plain Sight and don't need Hellcat Stealth.

If you want to also disable magical traps you'll need to make room for Dispelling Bomb.

I thought I did that? Here it is, reposted. Removed the bonus from outside buffs as well. Fighter goes +3 Falchion instead of +1 Holy without buffs as well.

Non-Archetype, no Multiclass. Alternate Class is fine.

The SCs are to be used as a comparative baseline.

Party Dynamic that can be assumed is, in general, One Arcanist, one Divine Caster, One Warrior, One Rogue. The person running the trial can feel free to tweak this, but that's on them. Other than those four roles existing and the SC filling one of them, assume they are going to a table with people they don't know.

The Citedel looks promising for the type of thing we want to do. Can markers and/or furniture be added?

I've been working off the same Monk/Fighter build for some time. I've rather deliberately simplified some portions in a way that's anti-monk, particularly with more complicated things like LoreKeeper's change. the Monk DPR should be accurate to within 5%, while the Fighter DPR should be completely accurate.

What other info would you like?

Whoops, good catch. Stock Characters should be made using PFS rules (20-pt buy, no custom races, etc) and without Archetypes. Characters should be fairly a-typical. Pretend you're making an Iconic Character.

In terms of optimization, it should be apparent that you know what you are doing, but it shouldn't be twinked to hell in back. Among other things, it legitimately has to survive all levels 1-20.

In short, think of it this way: You go to a PFS event. You sit down across from someone that has been described as knowing what they are doing. They tell you they are making an X (Fighter, Rogue, Two-Handed Fighter if you want to be more specific, whatever). What do you expect them to have made?

As your check, ask yourself whether you'd invite that character back to your table again in the future. This should weed out both extremes.

Made the Playtest Tower thread here. I'm serious about this project, and would love your guy's help.

Also, the more I think about it, the more LoreKeeper's flurry idea works... It's definitely worth implementing and further testing, at the very least. I'm still not sure about it costing Ki or allowing Full BAB on a standard action, but those are details. The premise works.

This was brought up in one of those Monk threads, and I want to see this bear fruit.

Now, while originally designed to send Fan-Material through, this idea has a lot of potential even when considering Paizo products. The design of such a tower could help people playtest a wide variety of classes and changes. Note that, and I can not stress this enough: the tower would never be a substitute for actual play. It is simply meant to get the basics out of the way and add to the amount of data we can collect. Once complete, it'll also be a venue for people who play in groups opposed to playtesting, or who are having trouble finding a game.

The Goal
- Create a module that rapidly runs levels 1-20.
- Each floor should take no more than one session to play--ideally less.
- Each floor must contain challenges representative of that level, and maybe a few odd-balls to keep things fun.
- No single encounter should take over an hour.
- The playtest tower should be fun! White-room battles are okay, and should be there. But so should interesting situations and environments. Throw in an underwater battle or a ship conflict or something.

*Once closer to completion, we'll discuss ways to speed up the process so you can get through a bunch of the floors even more rapidly.

The Plan

The Tower will be designed individually and then compiled into Google Docs. Each "Room" should be roughly one page worth of material, two if you count NPC statblocks. When the Playtest Tower is complete to the point that its passingly useful a separate thread will be made to present the finished project.

I will ultimately create a Google Docs folder to compile everything, but until then those working on the project should create and link to their own Google Docs.

Getting the first five and the first ten levels complete are the primary benchmarks. I'd like people to sign up to do a level and then design that floor (5 encounters). NPCs, Terrain, and Basic tactics should be included with links to their relevant stat-blocks on the PFSRD. Please no custom monsters and please keep the amount of cross-referencing to a minimum.

What We Need
- Input, input, input! This is a community project for a reason. Are the designed encounters too hard? Too soft? Do you have an amazing idea we hadn't considered? Post here, and let us know. How can we best meet and exceed your expectations for the ultimate playtest experience.

- People to design floors. If you're interested, select a level, and start designing. Please announce your decision so we can keep track and minimize overlap. When you've got your rough draft, post your work here, where it'll be reviewed by the community.

- People to design "Stock Characters." I'd like to get a type of signature character for each Base Class, designed 1-20, including equipment at each level. These characters should be representative of their class. If there is enough of a divergence or an interest in one class, more than one stock character may be considered. Stock Characters should be made using PFS rules.

- Mapping software. I'd like this project to actually have maps like those found in Adventure Paths. I don't know what software is good for this. What's available?

For those that want to Skim

I won't be able to edit this post much longer. To help people jump in to the project while it is running and focus their attention where it is most needed, I will occassionally make a post titled, "UPDATE POST: THE PROJECT TO THIS POINT AND FORWARD." In that post I will note the cumulative efforts to that point and note where our attention is most needed. For the curious, our first order of business is getting volunteers for floors and the characters.

Throwing some numbers down. You make a good enough point to start moving away from the theoretical and collecting data.

Results
Base: 114 (Fighter) vs 105 +1d4 Bleed (Monk)
Flanking: 131 vs 128 +1d4 Bleed

This is a bit deceptive. The Monk's DPR is a conservative approximation, and the actual number should be a few points higher. Possibly enough to tip the scales in the case of flanking. Otherwise, the fighter stays mildly ahead at all points, and while the Monk can do a little better, build-wise, the Fighter can do a lot better.

For lulz. Lets see what happens with your change at extreme levels of twink and optimization.

Result: 312 DPR, compared to the normal 230.

^ This is what I consider a hedge or corner case, by the way. That's the type of build you don't plan around. I just wanted to see the upper eschelons of how this impacts DPR.

So, over-all the results aren't as bad as I thought they'd be. Hammer the Gap and Trip Builds get the most benefit, and the primary DPR booster is the fact that the Monk gains +2 To-Hit over the current Monk. I would say that this can absolutely not be combined with anything else that boosts Monk To-Hit, however.

AC Doesn't scale because HP scales while damage doesn't.

I'd actually recommend Mysterious Stranger / Oracle over Gunslinger / Cleric--entirely because you can go one level in Mysterious Stranger and then never take a level in the class again.

Haunted flat-out doesn't work with ranged builds. As Degoon mentioned, it ruins your attempts to get ammunition.

I would agree with your assessment. Bane Baldric is an item from Ultimate Equipment.

Holy really, really depends on the campaign. In a lot of campaigns you can do well by it. That said, having to use 2 Elements or Holy on your Falchion drops the Fighter's DPR to 71, even if it applies.

Zilvar: Assuming equal To-Hit chances and equal misc bonuses to damage, yes.

Gren: Huh, I hadn't even thought of that. Good call. There is no more "Dex Monk" because Dex can never, even with Weapon Finesse, receive a comparable benefit (unless Agile is involved).

It's in Ultimate Equipment. A great buy, btw. The gloves are there too. There are a few other DR-piercing items. I'm not a fan of the material-based ones, however. Too expensive, IMO.

Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength + Cestus means the Monk is bypassing DR/Law, DR/Good, DR/Bludgeoning, DR/Piercing. The Fighter is bypassing DR/Slashing and DR/Material (Except Adamantium). In one level the Fighter will be able to bypass DR/Good as well. The Fighter could swap to a Holy Falchion, but then his Damage would tank against basically anything that isn't a demon.

@LoreKeeper: What do you feel making it cost Ki adds to the concept?

Aye, the Maneuver Strategy is actually the one that I consider the most likely. Particularly Trip Builds. That's why I was careful to look at Action Economy and not direct DPR. The Monk's medium BAB actually acts as a hinderence to bloating the single-action DPR. But that makes this change mutually exclusive with changes designed to make Maneuvers more viable.

A potential issue from a DPR perspective is probably a Dex-Based Trip + Vicious Stomp + Greater Trip Combination. That makes it tremendously likely to get off all the attacks, and results in 4 attacks in a single standard action.

If you don't like menacing affecting allies, hand the Cestus over to the Rogue, or make the Rogue buy a menacing Cestus/Armor-Spikes. It's not like you don't both equally benefit.

A change that makes the Monk more accessible to people with low system mastery at the cost of allowing it to be broken by people with high system mastery is in desperate need of reworking. The issue isn't some hatred against Dex-Monks, it's that you can't give them a bonus that STR Monks also benefit from too much. A +3 Enhancement at level 11 stacks to unweildly numbers.

Man, you people are really stuck on this "corner case" dismissive thing thing. I've been telling you the issue isn't what it does to the fully buffed monk. The issue is what the changes do to the unbuffed monks. The buffed monk is just a picture of what can happen.

But hey. Corner cases, so the data has no value, right? Lets take a nice, comfortable piece of data. No buffs. No flanking. Nothing, except Dabbler's change. Lets see what happens, data supplied so people can check my math.

Results: 77 (Fighter) vs 80+ (Monk)

It gets worse from there. The Monk bypasses DR easier than the Fighter, and, as always, crit-immune enemies tank the Fighter's DPR. It isn't just about the Damage. The Monks gain the damage... and the speed... and the AC... and the CMD... and... you get the picture.

Is this a corner case too?

RE: Feriah

Yeah. Looking at her with a fresh mind isn't helping. What is she supposed to be doing? She feels a bit all over the place, mechanically. It looks like you start down about three paths but never finish... Also, I'm doing this because I'm interested in actually helping you, in your specific game.

What houserules are in play, if any?
What material is available?
How pliable to changing the character is your DM?
How is your Magic Item Access?

The very, very first thing you need to do is talk to your DM about what you want to be doing and the frustration you've been having. It could be an issue of having geared yourself towards humanoid opponents in a monster hunting game. If you want to come loaded with a list of "things I'd like to change/do" I can help.

@LoreKeeper: Ew... I'm not sure I like doubling or trippling the worth of a Monk's standard action. The monk's standard action is behind that of other characters, but not by that much. You can't trust Ki to balance you either, because the Drunken Master and Hungry Ghost archetypes exist. Your Flurry also needs to be compatible with the Martial Artist, unless you want to make tons of work for yourself down the road.

I like the combination of negating the penalty of the flurry and making the extra attacks contingent on the prior one hitting in terms of what that does for DPR... even if it means that DPR calcs for the Monk will get even longer. >_<

The issue is that this is a direct action economy multiplier. It needs restrictions and penalties of some sort...

Hrm... Maybe instead of adding on Free Attacks it could be a Swift-Action attack? Possibly at a penalty. I think that might be mutually exclusive with the "contingent on hitting" aspect, which I liked. This also strips away the extra attack for Ki aspect, preventing the DPR from shooting too high on a full attack...

Heh, here's one for you. Swift action attack to make an attack against everyone damaged by you via a monk weapon since the end of your last turn.

-is just brainstorming at this point-

Here's a question: Can Flurry of Blows be mutually exclusive with Maneuvers, or should they be linked? I feel like mutually exclusive encourages Hulk Smash too much.

EDIT: Oh, another ranom idea before bed: The issue is what happens at level 8. Before that it isn't too bad. Why not allow the Monk to spend a swift action to repeat every attack that hit that turn at the same BAB, noting that the Monk may replace Combat Maneuvers with attacks, and visa verse. This means the Monk will never get more than 2 attacks on a Standard Action. The Full-Action attack -should- be countered by not being compatible with the Ki -> Extra Attack option, but I'm not sure.

EDIT 2: If you go this rout, then the swift action has to be preemptive. You would have to pay the swift action before making any attacks. This is for several reasons, but primarily because its easier to roll the dice that way (prevents you from having to remember your modifiers for too long).

@Dabbler: Hrm. Must have accidently deleted the section where I wax poetic about how Hammer the Gap is great but annoying to calculate. I know I wrote it. Fair enough. And yes, I adjust the build to take advantage of changes because players do.

You can call it a corner case all you want, but again. This works almost like a science. All it takes is one, singular case, no matter how obscure, to break your proposal to mark it "needs improvement." Your not being willing to do this and the sheer tenacity with which you hold on to your own ideas is counter-productive. As I stated before. If you want mediocrity and to say "this works unless...," I'll stop challenging you and bow out.

It's particularly funny because it's something that's really easy to fix.

Also, if you want to complain about my THF, build your own. I admit to pulling it out of my arse and would welcome a replacement.

@LoreKeeper: I stand corrected on full attack vs full attack at low levels. There are two concerns now: The Monk's DPR can get beefy under certain circumstances, as stated. Does your change push the Monk over the tipping point? Also, how is the relative value of standard actions?

@Ninja in the Rye: It's basically giving monks ~+5 to-hit. Technically, it halves their chance to miss, whatever that is. That'll result in much less DPR in most cases--assuming it replaces the multi-attack aspect.

RE: Monk's "Low Levels."

Sorry, I should specify, I thought I did earlier. Levels 4-8 are the Monk's crap levels. Levels 1-3, and again at 9-10, the Monk is okay. Level 11 the Monk is back in the game.

RE: Feriah.

I'll look at this chara in detail when I'm less tired and more sober. I'm having a hard time picturing what she's actually supposed to be doing or good at. That said, it looks like an Agile AoMF should solve most of your DPR problems. How, exactly, do you picture Feriah contributing to the fight? In an ideal world, forget the mechanics for a moment.

Correction: I included a -3 for power attack in the line for adding/subtracting. That is an error. The sum (24) does not include it, nor do any calculations. Please omit it.

Zilvar: The +3 is the change. The change is worth 2.5 damage and +2 to hit. To put this in perspective, the same Monk without his change has a DPR of 102. That is a difference of over thirty damage. For +2 to-hit.

@Lorekeeper: On it, working now though so it'll be a tad slow.

EDIT: Initial impression? I like the concept but it actually makes lower levels worse for the Monk. DPR will go down until around level 6 or 8. Lower levels is where the Monk has the most issues.

I would actually nix the Ki aspect. Make it, "Whenever the monk hits with an unarmed strike or monk weapon, he may make an additional attack with his unarmed strike at his full base attack bonus. A monk may only make a single attack in this fashion per round. Additionally, when the monk takes a full attack action, he treats his Base Attack Bonus as being equal to his Monk level.

At 8th level, when performing a flurry of blows a monk who successfully hits with at least two attacks (including attacks granted by the flurry of blows class feature) is granted an additional attack with his unarmed strike at his highest base attack bonus as a free action. This additional attack receives a -5 penalty.

At 15th level, when performing a flurry of blows a monk who successfully hits with at least three attacks (including attacks granted by the flurry of blows class feature) is granted an additional attack with unarmed strike at his highest base attack bonus as a free action. This additional attack receives a -10 penalty."

This makes the Monk better at lower levels. The forced reliance on unarmed strikes prevents the monk from benefiting too much from going two-handed with a Temple Sword, which will be a problem around level 6-8.

The key damage calc through the levels is actually what can be done on a standard action. IMO, you want the DPR to be ower, because there is a hidden benefit here with combat maneuvers. Go forward, use Dirty Trick. That's an attack that hits, so you use Trip with Flurry. That provokes an attack AND one or two AoO's... pretty badass standard action.

If the DPR is too lower remove/lower the penalty, perhaps to -2/-5. But this is just gut instinct, not tested.

OH! Doi. Lorekeeper caught that. I'm so sorry. :/

GJ Lorekeeper!

O_o Garbage in? Little hostile, ne? The Ioun Stone was a good catch by Gren, but the rest of the data is good and double checked. I even check it again (with the Ioun Stone revelation) below for your benefit, and explain each step. I actually never have Bards in my games so I didn't realize IC and the Ioun were incomparable.

I'm almost positive I know what you didn't read, and I'd suggest being more thorough before you criticize.

DMed for around five, played alongside three, played myself one. None were built the way your fighter is, none had any real problems from lack of mobility (at least none that weren't shared by everyone). However, I have played a fair few monks, and all the monsters you name pose problems for monks too.

Shared by everyone but the Monk, presumably. Bypassing normal problems is an advantage.

Looking at your list, I notice a number of other common factors that make the monk just as vulnerable as the fighter.

• The all have high CMDs - your monk with his low dexterity isn't avoiding AoO's from tumbling very often.
  
• Their attack chances are such that a monk - with or without mobility - is still likely to get hit.
  
• Their CMBs are high enough that the monk is almost as vulnerable as the fighter.

I will grant you the monk has better chances of getting through with no AoO's, but better != good in the same way 25% is better than 15% but still a long way short of 100%. On the flip side, the fighter has a number of options the monk doesn't have:

• A variety of reach weapons, should such foes pose constant problems any sensible fighter will tool up appropriately.
  
• Ranged weapons are options every fighter should carry, along with a handful of bane arrows for common foes. Sadly, monks got no love in this department.
  
• Great AC. While monks can have a fantastic AC, fighters can usually beat it.
  
• Fighters can pump CMD too - such as with their favoured class bonus.

Truth is, the best defence against being grabbed is always a ring of freedom of movement. The best defence against getting hit, AoOs or not, is either pump your AC or keep your distance.

Regarding challenges:

• I never mentioned Acrobatics, nor did I factor it in.
  
• With the Barkskin SLA and/or spending Ki the Monk has fantastic AC for this level. You pop the Ki for the +AC against big bads who full attack, lowering your DPR, but increasing your defense more than a little bit. Monks have that adaptability.
  
• The fighter is being hit on a 4. The Monk is being hit on an 11 without Ki, 13 with Ki. That is a difference between a 15% chance of success and up to 60%. That's a fantastic difference, and I consider a 60% chance of success good.

  Note that if the Fighter Charges to get in that beginning attack, there isn't even a comparison. Most monsters hit on a 2, and the Fighter can't stand up. I presume the Fighter is smart enough to double move, however.

  Regarding Fighter Advantages:

• None of which have a good crit range, benefit from Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or Imprived Critical. The Fighter is taking a massive DPR hit for this. How many reach heavy blades are there, anyways? If he loses Weapon Training too then well... good luck.
  
• Bane Shuriken cost no more than Bane Arrows. Your supporting dumping DEX to 10, which means the Fighter's ranged attack will be subpar at best. Unless the Fighter sacrifices a lot to switch hit in terms of feats, the DPR is negligible.
  
• Not at level 11. That's true at low levels, but by level 11 the Monk AC matches or surpasses anything short of a Shield or heavily Dex-Based fighter. This is, again, why the Monk's primary issue is one of scaling.
  
• So you admit to needing a Mobility-Equivalent option.

Actually. I'd like to get the personal involvement aspect of this out of the way. There's a monk that you are playing now that you complain about constantly. Would you mind posting its build? I'd like to see what yo consider the norm. (My norm is Maneuver Masters, which are useless to this discussion because everyone agrees they are fantastic).

@Lorekeeper: I've one unbuffed comparisons as well. And, again, am doing this to point out to people who want to make changes that buffs have a MASSIVE impact on Monk DPR, moreso than any other class. That said, I think it's well-established that Monks do fantastic against enemies with class levels, so I haven't bothered with that comparison.

If you're talking about how a Good GM might expand on encounters I would agree with you. However, a good GM takes his/her PC's abilities into consideration when designing those encounters anyways, and we open up the argument of, "Optimization and character ability is an illusion anyways because the GM builds the encounters around the PCs." I really, really want to stay away from that area by focusing on what the rules expect.

@Everyone: I think the wrong attitude is developing here, especially towards me. No, I don't mean "omg you hurt my feelings," I mean, "wait, I think these people think I'm trying to attack them and are retaliating." No... I'm participating in the design process as I have been trained to do it.

When you are trying to identify a problem and propose a solution, you take each step of the process and act like a scientist trying to propose a theorem. That is, you try to disprove it, not prove it. No matter where your personal experience and bias lies, you need to passionately seek the situations and interpretations that make your idea wrong. Then you submit it to other people so they can do the same thing.

People are proposing to give the Monk +To-Hit. There are situations, some common, where that buffs the monk entirely too much. That means your design needs to take these situations into account and adjust. If you are trying desperately to prove you are correct or less wrong, you've already lost, from a design process point of view.

At the end of the day, do you really, really want a fix that requires, "It works. As long as the players don't...?" If you're satisfied with that mediocrity, I'll step out and not bother you. But I think you guys are capable of designing something great, so I'm pushing you.

So design something great.

@Dabbler: It's (Sum of all To-Hit Chances + (Chance to Punishing Kick*Impact) + (Chance to Stunning Fist*Impact))*Damage*Crit Mod+(Sum of all To-Hit Chances + (Chance to Punishing Kick*Impact) + (Chance to Stunning Fist*Impact))*(Elemental Damage).

The second line is because of elemental damage, or other damage that can't be multiplied on a crit.

I also commend your almost 40-years experience. As you should know from that experience, presumably with different systems, each system has its own quirks and challenges. How many level 11+ Non-Monk melee classes have you played in a campaign in the Pathfinder Roleplaying System?

Re: Fighter's Defensive Problems. I assumed we were defining "boss" as CR+2, since that's what all calculations were made against? Lets stick with that assessment and take a quick survey.

Counting Dragons as one entity, that's 28 monsters. Out of 28 monsters, that's 12 that have a reach of 15ft. Basically all of them have 10ft. 10 of them use Breath Weapons, Will saves, and/or Touch Attacks to wreck melee people. Having fought two Pyrohydras at level 12, I can tell you that Improved Evasion is absolutely phenomenal for your survivability. Around 2 to 4 of them just completely destroy all melee and blatantly need caster/ranged support.

I would probably proffer the Monk as my primary melee against the Akhlut, Alraune, Ghaele, Azruverda, Banshee, Carniverous Blob, Charybdis*, Shipwrecker Crab*, CyroHydra, Tarry Demodad, Glaberazu, Gelugon, Dragons, Froghemoth, Gashadokuru, Viper Vine, Dread Wraith. If the Fighter has a low ACP (quite possible) then it'll do fine against the Crab or Charybdis. This is entirely because, at this level, the Monk has the defense to take care of things without dying.

The Fighter, against most of those enemies, has problems either approaching in the first place (Grab is abound at this level, as is reach, and range attacks that mean larger starting distances).

Now, the issue is level 5-8. Level 9-10 the Monk is "eh." Level 11+ He's back in the game, so to speak.

Typed bonuses are a big help. However, a lot of material was released assuming that those typed bonuses wouldn't be easily accessible--like Dragon Style. So giving out typed bonuses doesn't tip the Monk over the maximum, but it does make it rapidly approach it, as I showed with +Enhancement. Giving bonuses to hit and/or damage has rather... large impacts on the Monk.

@Lorekeeper: The Fighter build is good! It's more of an issue with the Agile enchantment then any inherent quality of the Fighter, however. Also, Haste doesn't grant the unarmed fighter an extra attack, so your DPR is ~196, which is only marginally better than the Monk's. You also spent 73k on all of that, meaning that you have 10k to spend on defense. How do you plan to get your defenses up in that budget? You also have a CMD of 30, which means your Fighter never gets to approach bosses or perform a full attack, as-is (maybe that 10k can solve it?).

EDIT: You also added the elemental damage as though it were multiplied on a crit. It's only worth a few DPR so not a big deal, but for future maths it might be important.

@Dabbler: Wait... you think the Fighter can dump Dex? That means that the Fighter is a high-level melee, non-monk character that hasn't taken Mobility. That means the Fighter dies horribly every encounter and never contributes vs CR-Appropriate foes. Honestly, a lot of melee characters have problems even after doing that.

The more you comment the more I'm starting to think you've never actually played a non-Monk melee character at very high levels or are familiar with the challenges they face...

Also, the reason higher DPR numbers are happening is because you're making your changes with only your playstyle, your build, your games in mind. You can't do that as a designer. Players will do things you never expect, and will do builds for the purposes of making your ideas not work. When it comes to game balance, it's truly the Players vs The Designers.

I'm going to stat out a Monk and a Fighter per your rules, only bothering with 28 AC. The Fighter wins, the Monk is fairly moderate. Both can punch through the same DR, and the Monk usually keeps above half the monster's Health in DPR, which is most important.

Then we're going to apply your change, and I'll show you the DPR.

Things like the above are why I don't care so much about the Monk's DPR or ability to hit. The Monk gets a free pass on a lot of "screw you" effects, especially at higher level. In any actual combat, the Melee Fighter has to jump through hoops just to be able to do anything.

The issue with Monks is one of scale. Their defensive abilities start lower, but scale faster than challenges. Their offensive abilities hit a rut at level 5, that lasts until around level 9, where they compete again. Any changes, IMO, should attack that scale or help those dead-ish levels.

I'm totally on board with the Abundant Step change. Wholeness of Body needs to be a free action usable once per turn, cost 1 Ki, and heal much less, imo. Maybe level/2?

Zilar: Menacing specifically states it need not be used.

RE: The Tower
Levels 1-5 would be a great start, Ashiel! That said, Ilja brings up a really good point. Anyone have any thoughts regarding that? Are APs made similarly enough to crop out encounter optimization? Can we do the tower without spoiling those APs?

I haven't played very many APs, so I wouldn't know.

Zilar: That was already factored in. Cestus just gives the monk Menacing.

@Gig: The Fighter does not benefit from an Extra Attack from Haste. You also spent 25k more gold than me and have no defensive items. Armor spikes would put you at 33k more gold than me. As a general rule, you don't want to spend more than ~60% of your gold on offense.

If you want to continue that comparison at that level of Gold blown on offense I'll upgrade my Monk's AoMF to Holy and then rant about how DR makes the unarmed Fighter suck but the Monk can so easily bypass DR.

That said, I'd recommend removing at least 20k worth of items from your build and do the DPR at that level.

(Menacing makes it 209 DPR, btw).

@Gren: Thanks for the encouragement. I'm not professionally in the design field. I've been a hobbyist at designing rule stuff for almost a decade, an I've had a lot of failures. So I know more about pitfalls than most, but not as much as some. It's something I do primarily for friends and to pass the time. Working on rules and systems makes my brain feel good in a way that normal puzzles just can't.

@EVERYONE (Especially Ashiel):

@Curious People

@Gig: Write up a TWF that matches / exceeds the monk then. I compared against AC 28, where the Monk equals the Fighter. Feel free to ignore the AC 25 results if it pleases you. If you fight AC 30 things, then someone needs to be dispelling those buffs.

The formula for Stunning Fist -> Medus's Wrath is adding X*Y*(0.1*Z+(X+0.1)*2) to the to-hit section of the DPR formula, where X is the chance for the first strike to hit, Y is the chance for the enemy to fail their saves, Z is the number of further attacks at less than 0.95 in the routine. This resulted ~+7 DPR with a 0.1 chance of making the save.

Who uses the elite array? I do see your point in doing so, but by doing so you basically remove one of the monk's primary disadvantages, MAD.

Using the point buy system actually favours the fighter. He can max out on strength, the monk has to spread points around. With PB, if the monk is not prepared to nerf his AC he loses several points of damage per hit compared to the fighter.

I used Elite Array because I was specifically replying to Gig, who specified its use. I also took the liberaty of doing the calcs vs the AC 25 (not the 28) with a 20-pt buy. The math shows that the Monk actually benefits more. Now, if a Fighter pumps up to 18 STR before racial mods, then he can pull ahead just barely, but the Fighter is going to suffer for that choice more than the Monk's MAD.

The Monk will most likely go STR 16 / DEX 12 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 8, and could dump INT and/or CHA more for more Dex or Wis.

The Fighter will likely go STR 16 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 12 / CHA 8.

This results in +1 To-Hit and Damage at level 11 for both. Run the calcs with that if you want, it benefits the Monk more.

No, get rid of GMW and Good Hope as they are uncommon buffs, no-one is going to carry around 8 GMW spells a day to buff the monk. Use the most common buffs, Haste and Bardic Song. These are the two that you are most likely to get in any combat, and they are quick to snap off in an emergency, like an ambush situation.

I used the buffs specified by Gig and GMW, an additional hour/level buff. It's actually two slots, not "eight." The MOnk bought a Rod of Extend, so those two castings last 22 hours, more than enough for an adventuring day.

No, it wouldn't. My solutions were Wis-to-hit (so the monk would be wis focussed, not strength focussed) and an enhancement bonus to hit only. That means less damage per hit, but as many hits as you propose. Crunching the numbers a monk at 10th level with my fixes came out with a DPR of only 27, 34 with the extra attack, on AC24.

I punched the numbers with your changes in the nice little section that mentions you. The DPR was much, much higher against a higher AC. I don't know how you built that Monk, but it wasn't for damage.

Don't want to over-favour the monk? Seriously? You massively favoured the monk so that the spell effects covered areas where the monk was very weak, but that didn't enhance the fighter that much. Flanking likewise makes a big difference to the monk, but none to the fighter. Against that AC, any buff to the fighter's to hit would be almost wasted. But for the monk's lower starting point, it means a lot.

Haste barely benefits the Monk, but is the source of almost a fourth of the Fighter's DPR. The thing is, there are no buffs that give similar benefits to the Fighter, without granting even greater benefits to the Monk. I didn't include them because they don't exist.

Why? What's that got to do with it? I never said about charging, I said what if the target moves. If the fight is a moving one where the enemy do not do you the favour of standing still and trading blows, the fighter rules.

How, exactly, do you expect the Fighter to survive approaching an enemy? The Monk can actually get into melee. A smart opponent can make sure the Fighter is never there in the first place. The enemy moves back, casts a ranged save or suck (or Dispel Magic). When the Fighter comes close, the enemy trips. A moving fight doesn't benefit the Fighter as much as people think in actual play.

For every situation you can come up where the Monk doesn't excel but the Fighter does, there is a situation where the Fighter does not excel but the Monk does. What about against the humble Grease spell?

Which is fine as far as it goes, but your builds, buffs and circumstances were really designed to make the monk shine. A TWfing fighter with all these buffs would out-damage a two-hander.

A TWF Fighter? Build it then. Regardless, it is to demonstrate how adding these types of buffs to the actual class (which people are trying to do) with boost its DPR much higher than intended.

What if fighter's get insta-kill options in the next supplement that leave every other class standing? You can't design for circumstances that you have never seen. Future designs take into account current designs, not the other way around.

I'm sorry, but you're incorrect. When you design something, you have to contemplate potential expansions in the future. That's how you design. No, it isn't intuitive, it isn't easy. But it's what has to be done. That's why not everyone is a game designer.

So you postulate a party that contains several buffing casters, including a bard, who do nothing but prepare buffing spells...and in those very specific circumstances the monk can actually match the fighter for DPR vs a CR-equivelant monster. What happens as CR+2 or CR+4. What if the DM buffs the opposition (not unreasonable). Then the fighter excels compared to the monk again.

Bottom line, this is a corner case. And as a corner case that massively favours the monk over the fighter, we can see...the monk matches the fighter. If he was beating the fighter by 20 or 30 DPR, I might take notice, but this situation you have created is very contrived, and the monk isn't overwhelming the fighter even then.

So... having a Bard in your party is a corner case, but facing enemies specifically designed to counter the Monk isn't...?

It's a corner case, but by buffing the Monk you're turning that corner case into a constant reality. The Monk should be below the Fighter. It not being below the Fighter, that's a problem.

Oh, and another point is that the Monk is not a 5th member. He replaces the Fighter when the 5th member is support.

But you didn't include this in the equipment the monk had to buy, and what happens if he gets debuffed with a greater dispel magic?

I included it in the second post, where I detailed the fringe and defensive stuff. What if the Fighter gets debuffed with a Greater Dispel Magic? No Haste. DPR goes away. The Monk still goes strong.

A realistic comparison would satisfy me, not a corner case of a monk specifically designed to take advantage of the buffs and a fighter much less so, combined with a reasonable level of buffs that you are likely to get, with complete builds.

Specific challenges, please. I have no idea what you mean by "reasonable."

@Ashiel: I made a statement that the fully buffed Monk can surpass the Fighter in terms of DPR. Gignere called foul, and set up conditions for a trial. I used his rules and proved my point, that the buffed monk can surpass the buffed fighter. This Monk starts with Dodge and Toughness, and survives as good as any STR-Based Monk using the Elite Array.

@Gignere: Yes, as a Monk you have to spend your money wisely. When Fighters are grabbing +3 weapons, you want a AoMF +1, Menacing Weapons, Pale Green Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Ioun Stones in Wayfinders, Gloves of the Skillful Maneuver (What I'd get in an actual game, but its not a DPR item).

Also, this isn't the only way to build a DPR Monk, or even the most efficient way. It's just the most obvious.

Why this Trial Matters: Or Picking on Dabbler

I want to start by saying that Dabbler is actually probably my favorite person to talk to about this stuff. While passionate, he speaks in concrete terms and produces measurable results. Unfortunately, that also makes him a very good for purposes of giving examples, so I hope you (as in Dabbler) take this in kind spirits.

The point of this, beyond proving that the fully buffed Monk currently outclasses a Fighter, is showing that just throwing buffs onto the Monk is dangerous. Lets use Dabbler's +Enhancement Bonus plan as an example, and nothing else (it's +3 at level 11). This doesn't actually impact the fully buffed numbers all that much. It'll give ~+4 DPR (an estimation) and make GMW much less important (so it has a huge impact on party resources). Although the Monk is already ahead of the Fighter, so it adds another grain of sand to the problem.

But lets look at them unbuffed. This is what it is without Dabbler's Change:

Results, same build, with no Buffs except Flanking*
Base is 97 (Fighter) vs 87 (Monk)
vs Immune to Crit its 74 vs 82
vs DR 10/-- its 73 vs 55**
vs DR 10/-- and immune to Crits its 51 vs 51
*Fighter uses a +3 Falchion, while the Monk uses a +1 AoMF and trades in his glove for a +1 Menacing Cestus. The Monk still spends Ki and uses Stunning Fist.
**To simulate the Fighter bypassing DR and the monk not, compare the base fighter to the DR 10/-- Monk.

Here are the same parameters with Dabbler's change:

Results, same build, with no Buffs except Flanking and Dabbler's Change
Base is 97 (Fighter) vs 122 (Monk)
vs Immune to Crit its 74 vs 107
vs DR 10/-- its 73 vs 80**
vs DR 10/-- and immune to Crits its 51 vs 69
*Fighter uses a +3 Falchion, while the Monk uses an [Element] AoMF and trades in his glove for a +1 Menacing Cestus. The Monk still spends Ki and uses Stunning Fist.
**To simulate the Fighter bypassing DR and the monk not, compare the base fighter to the DR 10/-- Monk.

This means that Dabbler's change will mean the Monk will always outdamage the Fighter, and not just vs Crit-Immune enemies. All calcs are vs AC 25.

That... is not good.

@Ashiel: You're moving the goalposts again. The purpose of the presentation is pointing out the higher end of what needs to be considered. It is not demonstrating a monk over a wide range of situations.

I only did the parts of the build that directly contributed to damage because that was what was being measured. Honestly, using the Elite Array handicaps the Monk here, because the Monk is very much not built for it. That said, the Monk actually manages to come out ahead of the presented Fighter.

The Fighter is probably working out of +3 Fullplate with a Ring of Deflection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in a Pathfinder, with a +2 Dex Mod. Also probably has a Cloak of Resistance +3 or so (feel free to supply a different buy list, it's late). THF aren't known for their AC. The Fighter has tons of Feats left, so lets say he gets Toughness, Dodge and Iron Will. We'll round a d10 HD to 6 per level (maxed at first). We're looking at...

STR 22 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 12 / CHA 8
HP: 110
AC: 28, 15 Touch, 25 Flat-Footed
CMD: 33 (+4 vs Sunder/Disarming his weapon).
Saves: +12/+8/+9

The Monk will take a Mage Armor buff (the Fighter can't benefit), giving the caster a Rod of Extend as compensation. He'll also keep Barkskin on himself through a SLA. The Monk will also take Dodge and Toughness at Level 1, because why not? For items the Monk will but that Rod of Extend, a Headband of wisdom +4, Ring of Deflection +1, a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in a Pathfinder, and a Cloak of Resistance +2. HD will be maxed at level 1, 5 thereafter. So we're looking at...

STR 22 / DEX 12 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 18 / CHA 8
HP: 98
AC: 31, 22 Touch, 29 Flat-Footed, +4 with Ki
CMD: 36
Saves: +11/+10/+13 (+2 vs Enchantment; Improved Evasion, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Disease)

If you don't let the Monk use Barkskin, or give the Fighter a friendly buff, then it puts the Fighter just slightly ahead in terms of AC. The Fighter's Weaknesses are, as always, CMD and Will Saves. In truth, unless someone eats AoO's for the Fighter, he'll probably never even make a successful charge against some of the Huge or Huger enemies, especially at CR 13--much less make a Full Attack. Meanwhile, the Monk can pop a Ki and just walk in.

Against flying enemies? The Monk has a +38 Acrobatics Check (another +20 with a Ki Point) for purposes of Jumping, meaning he can often just leap up and grab someone, for better or worse. He is also capable of carrying Shuriken. If you want a Shuriken vs Bow DPS calculation that's going to have to wait for another day.

I also demonstrated how the Monk compares against a fighter against an equal CR monster in my previous trial, DPR wise. The Fighter is slightly ahead, except when the enemy is immune to criticals. And honestly, the Monk is down about ~4 DPR by not calculating Stunning Fist / Medusa's strike. Another 2.5-4 DPR could be gotten by taking Belier's Bite at level 1 with your Human Bonus Feat (I still haven't ran out of feats, by the way--level 11 still unspent IIRC). That's still without getting tricksy. You could also take Point Blank Shot and either Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim if you really want to be better with Shuriken for the ranged aspect.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Action Economy" in this sense.

The Monk is resistant to Dispel Magic because his bonuses are spread over multiple items and no one buff matters overmuch. Dispel Haste on the Fighter and compare the DPR. Dispel any one buff from the Monk and compare DPR. Do the same thing with items.

I targeted an AC of 25, not 24, which is CR-Appropriate. Also, the rules for making "Big Bads" at that level change. A single enemy, even at CR+3, simply doesn't work anymore. 2/3 enemies? Maybe. Action economy becomes too big of a deal, and PCs have too many ways to debuff/take away actions. There are a few notable exceptions, but they really require a lot of thought on the part of the GM.

The rules also change in a few more ways. (Greater) Dispel Magic is a -huge- part of gameplay at higher levels. Dispel a Fighter's Sword or Haste and he loses everything. Dispel a Monk's Amulet and he loses... 1d6 damage? Haste and he loses... +1 to-hit? Woo. This is coincidentally why the Monk actually wants the SR at level 13, even if it makes healing/buffing a pain.

The truth is, at this level, anything that recieves a full attack from a dedicated meleer probably doesn't have long for this world. Delequisint Gloves give +1d6 acid damage to unarmed strike for 8k and let you touch oozes without bad things happening.

But since it was requested:

@Ashiel: Oh. Oh no. That's not even close to the max DPR a THW Fighter or a Monk can achieve. I'm not sure there's actually much of a point in going further, but you can. These builds were done taking the Core, unarchetyped Fighter/Monk, going through the combat feats, and asking "what adds To-Hit or Damage without shennanigans?" And doing that.

That said, the point of this is merely to state that because of the Monk's medium of dealing damage (lots of attacks) lends itself to multiplying the effectiveness of buffs, any redesign regarding that needs to take the possibility of being fully buffed into consideration.

Pushing AC to 32 or 34 via Mage Armor / Protection from Law wrecks both of the presented characters' DPR fairly reliably. Blur has an equal impact to both. Mirror Image actually favors the Monk. Given that the Fighter will have an ACP, low Athletics, et cetera, the Monk also comes out ahead in most unique situations not normally encountered.

That said, in general enemy buffs are what dispel magic is for. Enemy Level 1 casters are what familiars with a wand of dispel magic is for. That's the Wizard's job, and honestly, that Job existing is why glass cannons also stop working at these levels unless they have a damn good stealth skill and a whole lot of patience.