Sorceror's page

When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.

Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels

Thanks :)

Thanks guys. This would go well with the Go Unnoticed feat in APG :)

So the next question is, will it get edited in to something that makes some sort of sense in a later edition?

So I just got myself Goblins of Golarion and I'm looking through the rules in it. Got to Favoured Class Options and I see something odd ...

Rogue: Add +1 skill rank—this skill rank must be spent on Ride or Stealth.

Uhhhh ... but there's already an unrestricted Favoured Class Option for skill ranks IN THE CORE RULEBOOK.

So how is this a useful thing?

Missing weights on Ultimate Equipment => Wondrous Items => Slotless
* BRAZIER OF CONJURING FIRE ELEMENTALS
* HANDY HAVERSACK (mentioned as 5lb in description)
* HARP OF CHARMING
* LYRE OF BUILDING
* STONE OF CONJURING EARTH ELEMENTALS
* TOME OF CLEAR THOUGHT (should be 5lb like the other tomes)

Ultimate Equipment => Wondrous Items => Feet
* 47-60% line on Greater Minor Feet Item table is blank. Should be BOOTS OF STRIDING AND SPRINGING

Beastiaries => Monster Feats
* The word "Prerequisites" is split over two lines for the feat Ability Focus.

I don't get this at all. I've been trying to work out caster levels for intelligent items. At one point, I assumed that the caster level for an intelligent keen sword is 10, as the description of keen says it's CL10, however this appears to be quite broken as you could buy an intelligent item that casts Ray of Enfeeblement for 1d6+5 STR damage for only 1700G above base price.

Should also note, I'm looking at Ultimate Equipment in the PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/artifactsAndOthers/in telligentItems.html)

2) Yes. All proximity triggers, regardless of using magic or mechanical triggers, get these modifiers. There is no specific text anywhere in this section that says to treat them differently so they are the same.

Another look at the page shows the CR increase only in "Table: CR Modifiers for Mechanical Traps", so there's no CR increase for a proximity trigger on magical traps.

4) Figure out the trap's total cost from the Traps section, then use the info in the Craft skill to determine how long it takes based on the skill checks of the guy making the trap

That much is clear, but the rules don't seem to say how long a single Craft check is expected to take per day, as in how many hours you have to allocate to it. I'm thinking, how would you fit it in between adventuring and the 8 hour rest? It doesn't just happen on its own.

Reading through the traps section on the PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/characterBackground/st oryFeats.html)
1) How does one build/cast a spell trap? "The appropriate spell descriptions explain the trigger conditions for traps that contain spell triggers." What spells have trigger conditions?
2) When using a Detect spell as a proximity trigger, does this count for the purposes of increasing the CR and DC? The tables say proximity triggers are +1 CR and +5 DC.
3) When using a Detect spell as a trigger, will it only trigger for detected events in the cone as described in the spell description, or can it be made to fit an area?

For general trapbuilding:
4) How much time does a Craft check take per day?

Take a look at the new Pathfinder Reference Document.

I've noticed some technical issues.

1) Collapsible menus don't work on my laptop (they are permanently expanded), and it doesn't bold/highlight which book/section is selected. I traced this problem to javascript:setupPage() only enabling the collapsible menus if the window height is greater than 600.

2) A bunch of broken links:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/uncommonRaces.html
* "Svirfneblin: Deep bomber (alchemist)"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/staves.html
* In Staff of Necromancy, "Halt undead (1 charge)"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/characterBackground/bac kgroundGenerator.html
* In "Step 1" section, "Race of Adopted Sibling table)"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/downtime/managers.html
* "Having a manager delays capital attrition (Upkeep phase step 3)"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicIt emCreation.html
* In "Creating Items for Profit" section, "see Run a Business"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar/kingdomT urnSequence.html
* "create, expand, equip, or repair army units (see Mass Combat)."
* In "Improvement Edicts" table, footnote 1, "(see Mass Combat)"
* In "Special Terrain" section, under "Lair", "(see the Terrain and Terrain Improvements table)"
* In "Founding a Settlement", step 2, "See the Exploration Time column on the Terrain and Terrain Improvements table"
* Step 4, "See the Preparation Cost column on the Terrain and Terrain Improvements table"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html
* In "Qlippoth, Augnagar", Offense section, "1/day—waves of exhaustion"

Thanks :)

Ravingdork wrote:

Doesn't gunslinger say he meets perquisites as though he were a fighter? I doubt they meant that just for prestige classes.

EDIT: Found it in the introduction:

"For the purposes of prerequisites or other effects, each of these alternate classes counts as the class that it is related to."

In other words, YES YOU CAN GET WEAPON SPECIALIZATION ET AL.

Well, I stand corrected. My bad.

I see ... it's not obvious that Gunslinger is a Fighter subtype in the class description itself.

Shadow_of_death wrote:

Quote:

Both can take weapon focus, greater weapon focus and weapon specialization in any weapon by that level (though for the sake of argument we'll focus those on gunslinging).

as far as I can tell gunslinger can't take those

Gunslinger is a fighter archetype... meaning that he is a fighter, with certain powers/abilities swapped out. Ie: Gun Training replaces Weapon Training and so forth. As a fighter archetype, any Fighter specific feats or items etc. can be used by the Gunslinger. If you've read the APG, Gunslinger is similar to the "Phalanx Fighter" or "Polearm Master" archetypes, albeit Slinger has many more specific abilities than any other archetype.

As written, Gunslinger is not a Fighter. Gunslingers are not automatically eligible for feats that require Fighter levels.

EDIT:

three new alternate classes: the gunslinger, the ninja, and the samurai. Each alternate class replaces the class features from another class ... For the purposes of prerequisites or other effects, each of these alternate classes counts as the class that it is related to.

It's just not obvious in the Gunslinger class description itself that it's a Fighter class.

I still don't get how my stance makes me suddenly believe that "guns are far too useful" - but okay. I'll agree to disagree with you about the intent of my statements, Sorcerer, if you'll agree with me that if later versions of the firearm list includes anything more advanced than a revolver-style gun is just silly. Deal? ;)

Deal. :) Revolvers are pushing it for a fantasy setting. Double-barrelled rifles; not so much.

I found a photo of a Pathfinder gun! As you can see, a 3-6 second reload is not out of the question, and the damage-to-cost ratio makes sense now.

This is what I was wondering. So any feat that has "must be fighter" or "figter level x" is a no go then?

Gunslinger is not Fighter just as Sorcerer is not Wizard.

To answer the original question:

Bonus Feats: At 4th level, and every four levels thereafter, a gunslinger gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained by normal advancement. These bonus feats must be combat or grit feats.

There is nothing to say "treat the Gunslinger as a Fighter for the purposes of bonus feats", nor should there be.

Sure, the fighter would need to spend some feats, but he can drop 3 feats into Grit, Lightning Reload, and Signature Deed, and will continue to get more Feats than the gunslinger past 11th level.

Signature is Gunslinger only; Fighters can't get it.

I won't break it down deed by deed here, but how many will ultimately be used on a regular basis? The answer is: not many, at all. When your 'defining class features' aren't something to be excited over, you have a problem at the core of the classes creation.

At least there are the deeds for still being useful when you miss! Fighters won't get that either.

I can see it both ways... Making firearms proficiency a requirement is a bit arbitrary when you consider the fact that only 1 of those abilities doesn't require a gun.

Surely you mean "redundant" and not "arbitrary". My point is that GUNslingers should be expected to know how to handle guns (which is enforced by requiring Exotic [Firearms]). Though the GM in me can see the comedic value in allowing non-proficient Amateur Gunslingers ...

Honestly given the limitations of the feat & what you can do with it, I wouldn't even bother taking it. But, that's just my opinion.

Yeah, it's pretty useless if it's just those THREE deeds you can choose from, plus deed feats. Maybe it should be something like: effective Gunslinger level = HD / 2?

4 to hit isnt a huge deal if you can attack touch AC.

Why does everyone say this? It's only the first range increment; it's not useful for ranged combat, which is arguably the whole point of a gun.

And grit isnt neccesarily about being skilled with a gun, but about an internalized strength/toughness you can draw on.

I'd love to see Grit for other classes; Fighters in particular. At the moment though, almost all Grit deeds apply specifically to using a gun.

ratlord wrote:

I think that this situation falls well within the bounds of rule 7, and thus should never be an issue. Also as you can only do this at level 11 I'm not sure that any PCs would really care about the cost of powder and shot by this point. It seems to be a way of just not having to worry about managing fiddly finances halfway though the level progression.

Yes the feat is much better spent on lightning reload anyway

+1. No, +5. Lightning Reload is the perfect deed to use Signature on, especially at level 11 where BAB has 3 attacks.

Move action would let you quick clear and rapid reload in one round, instead of quick clear this round and reload next round....

That's my point too. This is why a standard action is game-breaking for Gunslingers, jemstone: misfires would still knock out Gunslingers for a full round before they could shoot again.

BobChuck wrote:

Realism has nothing to do with D&D.

Realism has very little place in a game where, at level one, the old guy in your party is very literally shooting people with impossibly accurate mind bullets.

Oh yeah, this reminds me: sight and vision improve with age in D&D/Pathfinder (increased WIS for elderly characters). Wish it worked that way in real life!

Or maybe it is a standard action for no cost of grit, and a move action with 1 point of grit being spent.

(from here)

I like this.

In response to jemstone and indeed anyone who says the playtest guns are far too useful as they are:

Having your musket misfire at first level and having to spend a round getting to the point that your only weapon doesn't destroy itself is not fun.

Having to spend two rounds getting the weapon to the point that you can actually attack again even though you've already got Rapid Reload is also not fun.
...
Reality, history, etc are great sources of inspiration and very important in the real world, but the moment they start making the game not fun they need to be set on fire.

Truer words have never been spoken. This is a game, and a fantasy game at that. If you want guns that will take 3 rounds to clear a misfire and 2 rounds to load, then fine, write up some OGL rules for that; just don't be surprised when all your ranged combat players turn out to be casters instead of gunslingers.

Where's the chance for bow strings to snap?

Bows don't use explosives to propel their arrows. That's where the distinction lies.

That's kind of my point in saying that I have no problems with a Gunslinger doing Quick Clear in 3 seconds.

A standard action is on average 3 seconds. A move action is on average 3 seconds. The difference is you can't do two standard actions in one round. So with Quick Clear as a standard action, combat goes like this:

BAM! *misfire*
"CRAP! I need to clear this! You guys wait for me!" *move*
CLANG! SLASH! FIREBALL BOOM!
"OK, I have it cleared now. But I can't shoot! You guys wait for me!" *move*
CLANG! SLASH! FIREBALL BOOM!
"Damn, when did they all die?"

With Quick Clear as a move action, Gunslingers suddenly become much more enticing to play and useful in combat:

BAM! *misfire*
"Crap! I need to clear this! You guys wait for me!" *clear*
CLANG! SLASH! FIREBALL BOOM!
"OW! It's not nice to hit someone when they're clearing their pistol. Just because I couldn't move last round ..."
BAM!

And that's not even playing sensibly (should probably move before clearing).

Sorceror wrote:

I like the Penetration Rating idea. It should probably work not just as AC penetration but as Ignore Hardness as well, so shooting a musket at close range ignores 6 hardness and -2 for each range increment (or -1 for each half range increment).

There's already a mechanic in the game that allows for that. Adamantine weapons ignore up to 20 hardness, so a few adamantine bullets would accomplish the same task, but with greater effect - though expensive.

Yes, that's where I got the Ignore Hardness idea from. The idea is that if you shoot a chest (as in either object or torso) from 5ft away it will do more damage than if you shoot the same chest from 80ft away.

By my suggestion, adamantine bullets could therefore penetrate up to 26 hardness depending on how close you are to your target when you fire (20 + full PR rating for within the first range increment for musket = 20 + 6 = 26).

I just thought though, as ammunition is so expensive, maybe there should be a use for Heal to retrieve bullets from bodies (alive or dead). This would make special materials or magical bullets more enticing.

if they're going to leave it as a touch attack for the sake of realism

You're forgetting that guns are a touch attack only within the first range increment.

Gruuuu wrote:

...you'd be counting some armor bonuses twice.

I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that.

Once for AC then once for DR. Unless you mean that all guns hit touch AC, regardless of the distance, and instead treat nat armour and armour as DR ... in which case, you're no longer penalised for shooting at long range (so the maximum range increment no longer makes sense).

(And upping the damage for a gun doesn't seem like such a bad thing in my eyes; most people only need to be shot once to die.)

Agreed.

Have you ever been surprised by a gunshot within a 100 feet? (i.e. 30 metres for the enlightened, which means roughly 30 steps away)

I have. One can piss their pants when a gun is discharged within 30 yards... especially when your head is down and you're texting.

I'll have to take your word for it. I live in a country where the vast majority of the population don't have guns. The closest I've come to hearing a gunshot is fireworks.

Heck, if you're in a bar, fully aware, your head is not down... I would bet *some* people would still piss their pants if a gun nut would step inside and start firing around...

Well yeah, that's a given. But in our modern world, you can get off more than one shot every 6 seconds. As the rules stand at the moment, the order goes something like this:

BAM! *reload*
1: "What in the name of Palor was that?"
2: "Hey, it's a guy with a boom stick!" *bow out* THWIP
1: "Let's get him!" *sword out* SLICE
BAM! *reload*

And if he wants to make use of the cool deed feats, then he'll have to burn those 3 feats to get them (along with extra grit). And he'll always lag behind the deed/grit-potential of the gunslinger.

You put this better than I could have. Why is it that the most of the people I've seen on these boards seem to not realise this? :)

Does anyone else think that Amateur Gunslinger should have Exotic Weapon Proficiency [firearms] as a prerequisite?

I can see there's a lot of resistance to Misfires in the discussions ... but I'm wondering if anyone else thinks Quick Clear should be a move action instead of a standard action. I think that in the event of a misfire, a Gunslinger should be able to clear it "this" round and be back in the full swing of combat next round (assuming shooting before moving).

I weren't trying to turn this into a discussion on whether or not bullets would penetrate armor, but rather on if we were to assume that they do (which the devs seemed wont to do) what mechanics might fit better?

The current rules say that bullets from guns will penetrate all armour, natural or otherwise, within the first range increment. That's why it's Touch AC to hit at close range.

I like the Penetration Rating idea. It should probably work not just as AC penetration but as Ignore Hardness as well, so shooting a musket at close range ignores 6 hardness and -2 for each range increment (or -1 for each half range increment).

As for Richard's suggestion, +15 to hit at 5ft distance? Why bother even rolling? :P

Everyone keeps pointing this out, but realistically, is any DM going to let a PC use this as a printing press for cash? As soon as someone tries it, it'll be houseruled in a heart beat. And I'm sure that devs are going to add some sort of stipulation as soon as a rules addendum pops up.

Isn't it more about what difficult players can argue is "by the book" opposed to what the GM says goes? Limiting Secret Stash will be needed to cut arguments down to a minimum.

Callarek, you make some excellent points.

1. bows run the risk of the string breaking if fired too quickly and dnd archers do it inhumanly quickly with no penalty.

I guess the issue is at what point suspension of disbelief fails.

2. As soon as the fighter can afford a gun he laughs at the gunslingers measly attempts to use them. Fighter can afford the feats to make his just as good and be miles better in melee so your statement is completely unfounded on a mechanical bases

So the issue here is that the Gunslinger is most useful at low levels, but only because of starting treasure ...

Edit: now killing a goblin at night with a bow, or shooting him? yea big difference in that case as the gun will make decidedly more noise than the bow and has a flash to go with the bang.

If you're trying to assassinate someone on the quiet, then it's up to the GM's discretion and appropriate Stealth etc. checks. Seriously, why would you opt for a gun in that situation?

Is a gunshot louder than normal combat? I would say no, for simplicity's sake. IMO!

I was thinking the exact same thing. It's like Occam's Razor: keep the simplest sufficient model.

Some feats and abilities require a base fort save, which this would not be.

It's not in the Fort Save column but it can be argued that should be: the bonus is unconditional and provided at specific levels of the class. In terms of character advancement, it is functionally the same as a base save increase.

I'd rather see something like Rapid Reload as an automatic feat than Brave and Tough.

The moisture in the air refracts light, it does not act as a barrier to impede it.

Sorry to disappoint you again, but all matter acts as a "barrier" which slows down the speed of light travelling through it. Air is no different. Yes, humid air will slow down light more, partly because of increased refraction and partly because it has more mass and density.

I never said lightning isnt electricity

its light, light doesnt move at the speed of sound or break the sound barrier, it move at the speed of light, because it's light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder You're right about the mechanics of the heated air; I'm right about it being a sonic boom.

All that measurable mass of photons?

Electricity, being electrons, has mass. That is my point.

either than or graduating high school may also help.

I won't stoop to your petty level of flaming. None of this is actually helping the topic at hand: is a gunshot louder than normal combat?

sorceror, since when does exotic weapon proficiency also supply a craft skill?

Since I suggested that it's part of being trained in firearm use, which is basically what you've been saying too (that Gunslingers should know about it). This is Pathfinder after all, and not D&D. Would you prefer a separate Craft [Ammunition] skill?

having an exotic weapon proficiency doesn't make the gunslinger any better at using it ... bards or what ever class can take EWP all they want, if they so choose to shoot a gun, they can choose to get amateur gunslinger too if they like.

Contradict yourself much?

The issue at hand is that the gun slinger is a full bab type, and what they do is full attack, there has been an entire class created around a weapon that prevents them from full attacking.

This is what Lightning Reload is for. OK, you have to spend grit to do it, but it's worth it. Not to mention the possibility of taking Point Blank and running in to close-combat with a longsword in one hand and a pistol in the other. Your concept of what Gunslingers can do is extremely limited.

one skill cannot give you another skill, craft cannot give you feats, or class features or create mechanics.

You're spoiling for a flamewar. It's fine if you object to my arguments (after all, this is MEANT to be a discussion); just stick to what I actually suggest.

Reloading fast enough to be able to shoot the gun in Full BAB is no different than either of those abilities that are already RAW.

Simply answer: guns are not bows. Bows don't have a risk of exploding if they heat up too much from too much rapid firing. Also note that Arcane Archer is by definition a magical class; so far Gunslingers have no magical abilities.

Just to respond to this part of your quote, the fighter won't be first level, if he can afford a gun ...

Glad to see someone is paying attention. It was an exaggeration, but the point was that Gunslingers are still better with guns than fighters could hope to be, which is the whole point of the class.

So my primary weapon either A) is only useful for the first three rounds of combat, and then keeps me out of combat for 4 rounds reloading

or B)Forces me into melee combat, which the gunslinger as written doesn't really have much int he way of feats for.
So either way the character is suboptimal.

A) By 6th level, you should have at least Rapid reload to go nuts with, if not Lightning. For Lightning, you'd use up Grit, but the problem there being that if you have Lightning, then why do you even need to do the BANG DROP thing?

Also, 3 attacks at 6th level? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gunslinger only has 2 attacks at full BAB at 6th level.

I think you need to get over the need to be able to shoot at full BAB iterations all day long.

This is what I've been trying to tell him. Pathfinder is not a spaghetti western!

Granted, this is possible as a level 11 gunslinger (signature deed (feat) on lightning reload deed); but there is no "realistic" requirement for that to exist as a norm for low-level gunslingers.

Not to mention that level 11 is a really nice place to put this as the BAB increases to 3 attacks :)

Heck, just doing a "daring" deed is enough to recover grit. That is awesome for roleplaying.

This is why I'm so interested in Gunslinger: the roleplaying aspects. Just standing and shooting for your whole combat won't do you much good; running straight at an Orc Barbarian two levels higher than you with guns blazing is likely to get you some grit back.

my group has always played with the rule that fireball goes "FWAKOOOOOM!!!!!" With 1 more "O" and one more "!" per caster level over 5

This is essentially the Neverwinter Nights rules, isn't it? :)

sorceror, the pouches would be items no one else knows how to make or use, akin to an alchemist bomb ... as the gunslinger gains experience he will be able to do it fast, and make more of them a day.

Sounds like a Craft skill that could be provided by Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Firearms].

having an exotic weapon proficiency doesn't make the gunslinger any better at using it.

Oh, it doesn't? Well then, why do we even need a Gunslinger class at all? Just throw some guns at some bards and wizards and you have instantly awesome ranged fighters. No penalties for using a weapon when not proficient, right?

and one of the major issues we've been discussing for days is how to make a perfected/balanced way to allow the gunslinger to engage in full attack actions with his primary weapon, the gun.

If he can't do that, he isnt a gunslinger, he's a fighter with an exotic weapon.

From what I understand of the Gunslinger is that it is about performing tricks with the gun, rather than using the gun all the time. You seem to be more concerned with rapid reloading ... these are two different interpretations.

What I'm trying to say is that it should be part of the rules for the weapons themselves and not something just gunslingers have. A fighter who specializes in rifles doesn't learn to do it while a gunslinger does? Its a very un-natural flowing rule.

It seems to me that pistolwhipping should be part of the Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Firearms) feat and not built in to any particular class.

actually the whooshing sound would be from air being consumed (fire consumes oxygen) and there would be a pocket void of air from the fireball so the whoosh is the air coming into replace the depleted oxygen.

OK, so maybe a Silent Spell or pre-cast spontaneous Fireball won't call much attention. But what exactly is your point?

Lightening doesnt make noise. its light, light doesnt move at the speed of sound or break the sound barrier

No. Lightning is ELECTRICITY, which DOES have mass. Both light and electricity travel faster than the speed of sound; when an electric zap happens, regardless of the size (two live wires near each other or an atmospheric discharge) a sonic boom is created.

also light would move slower than it does and go less distance because it's energy would be somewhat depleted by parting the air, like sound does.

Sound does not PART air; sound is a vibration OF air. And sorry to burst your bubble, but air DOES slow down light, just as water does, just as all materials do.

Now if you are trying to discuss man made electricity and the zapping noises that can be heard, like when you touch your jumper cables to a batter terminal etc etc. That is not the light making the noise, but the expenditure of heated molecules of air rapidly expanding, which is technically mini thunder.(sounds like 'zap')/quote]

OK, so let's assume you're right for a second. Lightning is light and nothing more; then how exactly does it heat the air molecules?

Pendagast wrote:

since the spell lightening bolt mentions no noise

Fireball doesn't mention noise either; nor does Magic Missle; nor does Scorching Ray; nor do most spells. What's your point?

Fireballs on the other hand probably dont make much noise as it's just a superheated fire at maximum expansion in the whiff. So it would make lots of light and be uber noticeable, but probably not very loud.

I expect you'd hear a very sudden WOOSHing sound as the air suddenly heats up and is pushed out of the way of the fireball etc. etc.

Lightening bolt, technically doesnt have thunder with it, so technically doesn't have alot of noise but still very noticeable (just like a flash of lightening catches your attention even if you arent looking for it.)

As someone who has disputed the volume of muskets based on the speed of sound, it's disappointing for you to argue that a Lightning Bolt wouldn't produce much sound. You'd get quite a loud crack from it, but no discernible thunder. A small electrical spark creates a sonic boom; so a LARGE spark (which is essentially what a Lightning Bolt is) would cause a reasonably loud crackling.

So for purposes of being able to "notice" a gunslinger over the doings of other characters....its not much.

Fighters and rogues are arguably a lot less noticeable the swing of a sword and the muffled cry of death, probably not very noticeable.

I find your logic difficult to follow ...

In a dungeon, echoing and carrying down hallways and such, the fireballs is probably the least noticeable of all of them.

You're probably right ... assuming Silent Spell ... It's all up to the GM to decide IMHO.

the standard time to reload a musket was 3 shots a minute, current rules already blow that out of the water.

but as far as having a fighter who can occasionally shoot, a normal fighter could just take the exotic weapon proficiency, boom, done.

And then the level 1 gunslinger comes along with two free pistols and a bunch of Deeds and BOOM, your fighter is dead.

We are talking gun slinger.

Also as far as the immediate action goes, remember you loose your free/swift the next round.

So why not make it a free action instead? I don't see why reloading should be out-of-turn.

So if you had a 10 base for pouches, (essentially paper cartridges) then 2 for every level after the first, a 6th level gunslinger would have 20 preloaded swift action paper cartridges.

that gives a 6th level character, with two gun fighting style 5 rounds of sustained gunfire a day, id say thats not enough.

OK, what's actually in these pouches? A bullet, a bit of black powder, wrapped in a bit of paper. It makes no sense at all to say that the number you get per day is limited by class level. They're items!.

Also: "sustained gunfire a day", hmm ... spaghetti western fan at all? Gunslingers are not intended to use sustained gunfire; the "slinging" is about show, style, and accuracy.

But in the fantasy world, the bow SHOULD be better than the gun, UNLESS there is a gunslinger using it.

That's the whole point of making it an Exotic weapon.

Shouldn't be a deed, but a class ability they get at 5th level or so that works like Dazzling Display but in a 100-foot radius instead of 30-foot AND activates as a swift action once per encounter after the first shot fired by the gunslinger IF this is the first shot fired in the encounter. (i.e. doesn't work if other guns have already been fired already...)

"Hey, is that Han Solo?"

OK, this is a fantasy setting, but 100ft Intimidate is just insane.

Many gunslingers push to position themselves at close range, barrels blazing, to take down their foes and demoralize their enemies.

There should probably be some Intimidate-related deeds.

I was not the first one who started talking about how stuff works in real life.

True. Sorry I singled you out there.

Frankly, given that you don't have access to these until 11th level (Halfway through your adventuring career...) I should hope that they are all but auto-successes.

Spoken like someone who has never had a truly evil GM. ;) Regardless, the mechanics of this sort of thing are important.

These should really be things you have access to at like, first level.

I agree. It'd be much more useful at lower levels, and should probably be considered basing training for gun proficiency. Shooting cans off a short wall, for example, is basic target practice!

You shoot the weapon out of someone's hand, and then shoot it away from them.

Now THAT's something I'd be happy to spend a few Grit on. Can we make that a Deed? Quick draft of a feat to do it:

Out of Hand Deed (Grit)
Shoot an object out of an opponent's grip and shoot it away from them.
Prerequisites: Lightning Reload Deed, Targeting deed class feature, Scoot Unattended Object deed class feature.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can spend 1 grit point to target an opponent's arms as the Targeting deed. If your attack succeeds and an item is dropped, you can spend a further 1 grit point to reload as a free action as the Lighting Reload Deed feat, and attempt to Scoot the object as the Scoot Unattended Object deed. This costs a maximum of 2 grit points. If the Scoot attempt succeeds, the item moves 30 feet instead of 15 feet.
Normal: Using Targeting, Lightning Reload and Scoot Unattended Object together would cost 3 grit points and take a total of two standard actions, and the item would move only 15 feet.

Again I say - I love the flavor they are going for with the Gunslinger, but the delivery is just horribly wrong and nearly unplayable. I'm all about shooting the gun out of someone's hand and then shooting it away from them, even if it's costing me my limited grit... but 11th level? Really?

This is exactly the sort of stuff that should come out of the playtest, isn't it? :)

So when they reloaded, instead of pour in powder, dropping in a patch and a ball, they bit off a corner of the preloaded pouch and dumped the entire thing down the barrel in one shot and chased it with the ram rod, tap tap.

this dirty little trick would make a nice addition to the deeds, a dirty little deed.

Actually, I think this would make a nice addition to items. You could buy or make a number of prepared bullet pouches like this, each one reducing reload to a swift action for one-handed arms, and a standard or move action for two-handed.

However, because you still need to chase it with a ram rod, it seems to me that loading a pistol will still be a move action; you have to drop the bullet and powder in, AND ram rod it. It's too much for a swift action. Maybe we can just gloss over the need for a ram rod ...

In fact it really good just be lightening reload, except lightening cost 1 grit, it's too rare, and wouldnt keep the gun fighter in the fight long enough, he'd run out of grit.

You forget that Gunslingers have Martial Weapon Proficiency. Guns are not their only weapons, as LoreKeeper said:

I think people should stop thinking of gunslingers as shooters, and instead as fighters that use guns and cool tricks.

Maybe lightening for 1 grit could be an immediate action?

There's a fine line between "fantasy game with guns" and "when did Bruce Willis get here?" You just crossed it.

And sorry, but Legolas style of shooting with a bow... Not really all that realistic.

Re-al-is-tic? What is that? Bear in mind this is a fantasy game. The rules are essentially there so that you don't have players spontaneously manifesting pet goats that climb on ceilings and talk Viking just for the sake of burning down an inn (which, btw, did actually happen in a game I GMed).

Why exactly is a special bonus to Fortitude given at 2nd level? There's no indication that this is any different to an increase in the base save. Looking at the table, it means that at 6th and 18th levels, Fort increases by 2 (one for Brave and Tough, one for base save).

It would make more sense if the Tough part of Brave and Tough was conditional; e.g., a bonus to Fortitude to save against bleeding, death effects, etc.

I also thought that perhaps there should be a bonus dodge AC against gunshots; perhaps this could replace Tough?

Just reading through the playtest now, and one thing puzzles me: Why do smaller locks have lower ACs than larger ones?

A diminutive lock usually has AC 7, and larger locks have higher ACs.

Smaller locks should be harder to hit at distance (after all, the range increment for a pistol is 20ft). This is the case for objects for Scoot Unattended Object:

A Tiny unattended object has AC 5, a Diminutive unattended object has AC 7, and a Fine-sized unattended object has AC 11.

Maybe larger locks should have DR instead of higher AC for the purposes of this deed? Or maybe this should be linked directly to the Break DC.

Furthermore, for Scoot Unattended Object, there should probably be a DC to Scoot that is separate to AC:

The gunslinger makes an attack roll against a Tiny or smaller unattended object ... On a miss, the gunslinger damages the object normally.

So basically, you're guaranteed to hit the object; I can imagine some people arguing about concealment miss chances.

In my opinion, the AC to hit the object (or lock) should be the same as attempting an attack without using a Grit point. Then if you succeed to hit by 5 or more, you succeed in the Deed, otherwise you damage the lock or object.

Or maybe I misunderstand the intention of Grit ... are we trying to build a Han Solo character here?

Sorceror wrote:

Here's the information for OOCalc. I'll post more info later (it's 2:15 AM right now!)

A1=1; A2=2; A3=3; ... A20=20
B1=0; B2=<XP for level 2 in chosen track>
B3=B$2*(POWER(2,INT($A3/2))+3*(POWER(2,INT(($A3-1)/2))-1)/2-1)

Then you can fill B4 to B20 using the equation in B3. Then you need to round the values as I described above.

You can also do fun stuff with this, like calculating fractional levels.

For what it's worth, the Excel formula I came up with a couple years ago for the Medium chart was:

=ROUND((2000 * (2^FLOOR(A1/2;1) - 1) + 3000 * (2^FLOOR((A1-1)/2;1) - 1))/10^(FLOOR(SQRT(A1-1);1)+1)*2)/2*10^(FLOOR(SQRT(A1-1);1)+1)

That's even more insane than mine! It's more closely related to the alternating recursion method I described above ... At least mine only has one magic number (at Lvl = 2) :)

Faster PDFs would be better, but I think it's more the PDF rendering programs at fault, rather than the actual files.

I have a decent enough CPU and a very good graphics card, and even utilising both through hardware acceleration, pages still take seconds to load.

It appears to me to be the fault of the files. I wish I could find out how though ...

I've got Acrobat Reader and evince (libpoppler-based reader) on my laptop, and Reader is substantially slower. I also have an Android tablet with Aldiko that loads the pages at a reasonable, but not enjoyable, speed.

Bestiary without backgrounds

Core Rules without backgrounds

Another option

Simply awesome, thanks!

A couple of things that I've noticed about these already:
1. The PRD PDF has links to the PRD website in chapter 1 under "Common Terms" (try clicking the ability names)
2). Hyperlinks to each of the tables in the Index of Tables would be nice, but are not essential.

As for my original post, reducing the quality of the images in the PDFs (at least, the high quality JPEGs) is not enough to speed up viewing substantially. I've written a program that helps with this task: https://github.com/WhitePatches/pirt/tree/1.0

I guess I should try reducing the sizes of the SMasks as well ......

I much prefer the old 3.5 experience progression; it was very simple and elegant. While I can appreciate the xp budget approach, I have no trouble with the old EL design system (and the backround math of encounter design is much the same in both anyway).

The reason I like the Pathfinder progression is that all the s***-crazy maths to determine how many XP a 14th level character gets for stepping on a goblin is already done for you; you add the static XP for the goblin, then realise you still need to do that a few thousand times.

I'm wondering if Paizo could provide PDF copies of Pathfinder books with low-quality images. It'd make the PDFs faster to render, and would allow them to be read by eBook-reader devices easier :)

So please, don't conflate issues of intellectual property with issues of licensing. They are, from a legalistic perspective, completely different things.

*And here I am singling out WotC for the sake of simplicity. More properly, it should be the Original Publisher, as Paizo is putting out its own OGL stuff. Paizo is just being more...

I'm still expecting Cease and Desist letters from WotC for saying their XP-required-per-level is exactly equal to /500 Lvl (Lvl - 1)/ ... :D

My brother and I have been analysing these recursive equations all night and we now have three arithmetic equations:
(a) One for odd levels;
(b) One for even levels; and
(c) One that uses an int() or floor() function to cheat slightly on alternating.

Here's the actual maths of it as a PNG image. This was derived from taking the above recursive equations, doing substitutions on Lvl >= 3 to get it in terms of XP[1] and XP[2], and mostly staring at the resulting numbers until they made sense. Essentially, there's an alternating pattern of powers of 2, multiplied by either 2 or 3, that factors at the core of the equation.