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0gre wrote:
Mostly the Magus players spend a lot of time rolling dice.

This is my experience as well. I full attack as much as possible with spellcombat, and find my turns just require endless chains of rolls.


The spell description says the target is knocked over and pushed back. Should I assume that the spell automatically knocks the target prone assuming a successful CMB?


I'm playing with an alchemist who seems to not brew potions. From reading the rules, it seems like he could be preparing them in the field, just like an arcane caster prepares spells. I know there is a small material cost associated to create low level potions, and I'm sure the party would cover these costs.

The only time he has prepared any potions is in a town, so perhaps I am misunderstanding. It seems he needs only a flat surface, two hours, and material components for potions up to 3rd level/250 gp.

Am I right that this player is under utilizing this feature?


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This type of meta-analysis is a great service to the community.

Thanks for taking this on!


Arcane mark is the path to the dark side!


Also note that you will lose your remaining charges of chill touch or frostbite if you cast a cantrip.

If you want to use ray of frost just take a 5ft step back and cast it as part of a full attack. same with daze.

I agree with the CoV that close range arcana is not worth it. As he pointed out, you can only spellstrike with touch spells, and there are only a few.

If you go the arcane mark route, work it out with your GM. I don't use it, and won't even consider it unless there is a clear statement from Paizo making it legal. I don't use light either, as it is not a touch attack, but then neither is arcane mark.


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
Cult of Vorg wrote:
Round 2 you spellcombat to cast a touch attack spell, you like cold so make it frostbite, holding the charge. 5' step diagonally to get in melee range and use spellstrike to deliver the touch spell's free attack through your sword, then take your regular full attack.

Okay, so at level 2, does that mean I can cast Frostbite using Spell Combat, hold the charge (not using the other attack just yet), 5 foot step towards the enemy, spellstrike with it (gaining a free melee attack) and then use my actual attack that accompanies my spell combat?

I'm wondering which of these melee attacks would be at a -2 penalty and if you use spellstrike, do you roll just for weapon damage and assume the spell hit, or when releasing the charge, do you roll for both a spell and attack when working out the damage?

Anyway, from the look of things this means a level 2 Magus can actually cast a spell, hold it, release it through a free melee attack and perform his/her normal melee attack, all in one round.

That's pretty devastating.

Yes, that is how you do it. Note that you only get the free attack on the round you cast the spell.

All of your attacks are at -2 when you do this.

I'm not sure I understand your spellstrike question. You channel the touch spell through your weapon, using your regular melee attack. If you hit, you deal weapon damage and the spell damage/effect. You also use the crit range of your melee weapon for the spell.

So yes, you can produce spectacular damage.


Make sure both you and your GM know the spellstrike and spellcombat rules. Also remember you can't cast another spell while holding a charge, which is a mistake I made. For a player new to casters like you, or a player new to the system like me, the magus is a challenging class to play.

You mentioned mentioned something about having trouble getting spells off in combat, I assume due to OA's/defensive casting.

You can full attack (1 attack at -2), take a 5 ft step, and cast any spell you know. So you can cast a ranged spell like grease or color spray safely. Coversely, if you begin a round 5ft from the group you just color sprayed, full attack, cast shocking grasp, and then take a 5ft step and make two attacks, one spellstrike and one regular, both at -2 on whatever is left after the color spray.

Since you are just hitting level two, the cantrip daze is useful. Evening spamming ray of frost/acid splash helps add damage, although I think daze is better.


I'm playing a dervish dance elf magus who did not dump cha, and I'm tempted to take a 1 level dip into archaeologist bard, or even rogue. I am already picking up a morale bonus from another PC, so I don't want to battle dance.

I know trading a level of magus is a step back in power, but I would gain a lot of flexibility, capitalizing on the dex based skills. Two first level bard spells wouldn't hurt either. The rogue offers less overall. I'm getting both a +1 morale bonus and a +1 sacred bonus from other players, so the loss of a BAB won't hurt too bad in terms of accuracy.

Just curious what you all think about this option.


Don't think you are doing it wrong if you are having fun and you like your character.

I just started playing a dervish dance magus and like you I enjoy the switch hitter options. I love the inherent flexibility. Once I decide to engage in melee, I spell combat full attack and take a 5 ft positioning step almost every round.

Like you I built with an 18 int to take advantage of spells like glitterdust and color spray. It sounds like you are playing at low level, where you can just crush opponents with these spells. And once you get spell recall, one or two extra pool points really shine.

You could also take manoveur mastery arcana and take advantage of that strength with improved trip. Trip is pretty devastating in pathfinder.

You have lower ac but higher hp. You can do more damage with power strike if you'd like rather than trip. You have more freedom in feat selection, where as I had my first 2 feats programmed, making me feel a bit "cookie cutter."

Good luck!


This thread looks like it has the legs to break 500 posts. But can it do 1,000? That's what I want to know.

I feel so evil rubbernecking this thread. But, I am CE or LE?

And whose definition should we use?

Drat. I'm concerned that Sir Jolt's mature and level headed perspective may be the undoing of this thread.


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I have a simple solution for your problem. Just play another class. Expand your horizons.

Just try something else. You might even like it.


What is the rest of your party like? Are you the only arcane caster? Do you have a few strong melee characters to use as human shields?

I'd rather cast color spray than shocking grasp at level 1. Spellstrike damage is sexy, but the best arcane spells are for me too hard too pass up.

And don't expect to stay in melee all the time. My magus is the squishest character in my party. For me it is all about resource allocation and tactics.

For what it is worth I don't spam arcane mark. Use daze or ray of frost with spell combat and 5 ft step. Even if it is ruled legal, you need the melee types in your party to take the hits.

In the end, check with you GM if you think you must have arcane mark.

Also, thanks for suggesting the opening volley feat Narrater. I think it is an awesome feat for the magus. My Dervish Magus might take it at level five.


james maissen wrote:
Pickguy wrote:


I have to admit that this freaked me out at first, until I remembered that rogues can do this exact same thing at 2nd level with Sneak Attack and TWF. I guess I can just classify Magus as a glass cannon.

Actually a rogue is in general better off as they don't have to:

1. Risk provoking an AOO and/or losing the spell (either via concentration check or damage dealt by the AOO).
2. Burn a daily resource.

I find that they are closer to monks burning ki.

In either event they fall into that 'light infantry' category that tries desperately to match a fighter for limited circumstances/durations.

Build a strong big weapon using fighter with power attack and cleave then compare the 'uber' damage. Be sure to factor in the chance to hit, the concentration check and the like. And count how many times the magus can do this in a day when compared to a fighter that can do it without any limitation.

-James

I completely agree with your insight here. Spellstrike is sexy and flashy with its potential for high damage, but for me spellcombat is what makes this class deadly. If I am spamming a touch evocation like shocking grasp with magical lineage I am getting close to being a one trick pony.

Just to survive I am going to have throw up shield and mirror image. Without a pearl of power necklace or a batman utility belt of wands, you just can't do it every combat.

I much prefer being tactical and flexible. As long as I'm not boxed in, I don't care how much damage I do. I make my melee attack, and then step back and cast glitterdust on a group of low will mooks and watch the inquisitor and twf rogue tear them up. Less flashy, but more effective, and even at level 4 I still have a few spellstrike evocations to deliver high damage if I want to eliminate a target.


Grick wrote:
Sobchak wrote:
Thanks Grick. You've been patiently (as well as clearly and accurately) answering a lot of magus spellstrike/spellcombat questions.

Thanks. There are so many questions about it because it relies on a solid understanding of rules that are spread out though the book, and usually not used very often. If someone is unclear, at all, about how touch spells work, holding the charge, and iterative attacks vs normal AC, then adding the layer of Magus stuff on top of those existing rules will completely confuse them.

I've been thinking of trying to write up a clear guide to the whole thing, starting with touch spells, going through all the background info, then how the Magus can change things. But without a bit of official clarification, it would still contain my opinion on a few things, and not be good enough to settle table arguments or whatever.

That is exactly what happened to me in my first pathfinder game playing a level 4 magus. I thought I had done all my homework on the magus and how its class features interact with the rules. I had everything down except the fact that you cannot cast a spell while also holding a charge. And even details like the full attack combined with the 5 ft step caused some confusion at the table with other players who didn't know it was legal.

You've been right about everything except picking flowers, although I am playing an elf! I usually use that off hand to cast glitterdust.


Grick wrote:
Sobchak wrote:
Can I juggle the charge, shifting it from my weapon to my off hand to take advantage of the low touch AC?

There are no rules about 'where' the charge is held. By RAW, you're simply holding a charge. And Spellstrike gives you the option to deliver that charge with your weapon. You don't have to use Spellstrike, so you still have the option of using a regular touch.

Some DMs will decide that there's a part of your body the charge is held in, and that is decided when you cast the spell, and from then on it can only be discharged using that part of the body. They feel that if you have a held charge, and you formerly tried to touch something and missed, that you no longer have the option to use Spellstrike since the charge is in your hand instead of inside the sword. So ask your DM.

If you just want to get rid of the charge so you can pet your horse or something, you can also harmlessly discharge it by casting another spell. So create water or detect magic or something and your hand is free to pick flowers and stuff.

Thanks Grick. You've been patiently (as well as clearly and accurately) answering a lot of magus spellstrike/spellcombat questions.


Here's a question about holding charges. I cast shocking grasp via spellstrike, and miss. So I'm stuck holding the charge. I want to get rid of that charge as quickly as possible. Now lets say I am fighting a slow, heavily armored opponent with a low touch AC.

Can I juggle the charge, shifting it from my weapon to my off hand to take advantage of the low touch AC?


I take it you have no interest in battlefield control spells?

I just started playing a level 4 dervish dance elven magus. I play like a switch hitter ranger build. I have the usual spellstrike evocations, like frigid touch and shocking grasp, but also a few control spells. This allows me to assess the battle on a round by round by round basis. A timely color spray, grease or glitterdust can really help the party. And while it is awesome to crit fish with my scimitar for spectacular damage, for me it is just as fun to help the entire party be more awesome. I also don't have the hit points to remain in melee all the time. In fact I have the least HP in the whole party. Somehow the rogue even has 10 more than me!

How about mirror image for defense? You have a lot of direct damage spells. Have you considered building in a little more flexibility with your spell selection? Vanish is always fun.

When I was building my magus I decided that the control spells were just too good too pass up.