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the paladin player states the reason he kills helpless prisoners is because his code is "I must protect innocents" and he says that includes future innocents the person may threaten

what do you think of his actions upon seeing children being sold as slaves in absalom? does his code require him to do something? or is it ok to ignore his code then?

Depends on the specific situation. The Paladin code does not require you to be suicidal. You do what you can to protect the innocent, but throwing yourself on someone else's sword doesn't do a thing to protect any innocent. In fact, it might get the slaves harmed worse if he helps them escape and they are caught.

what if he was the leader of his nations patrol and after a skirmish with one dead on each side--he and the other sides paladin leader both detect evil and the two evil people are in his platoon? What if the other paladin insists on killing those two evil--since he lost a member of his platoon? does the paladin fight the other paladin to protect the two evils? does law or good prevail? and would you base it on actions he had taken and a code he had declared in the past?

Detecting as evil does not mean that they will harm innocents. There is no proof that they would. In this specific situation, there aren't really any innocents. The other Paladin would be in the wrong. Asking whether Law or Good prevails is a false dichtomny. Unless there is evidence that the ones that detect as evil caused the fight to begin with with the intention of causing harm. Even then, soilders are not what I would consider 'innocent'. They willingly put themselves in harms way.

And this ignores the problem of Paladins not being allowed to associate with evil creatures.

I definitely agree with you regarding consistency.

Intelligent consistency, yes. That is part of being Lawful :) However, there is also the understanding that no two individual situations are completely identical.

Even if you are attacked by something that detects as evil. In one case, that is just something evil that is deserving of punishment, in the other, it is an innocent that is possessed by a fiend. Granted, if you have no way of knowing that, it would not be an evil act to kill that innocent.

then that paladins diety better remain consistent.

If that paladin can punish a slaver in a lawless land and execute him when he is helpless

but then reaches a land like absalom and ignores the situation?---either the paladin or the diety is a coward IE I only follow my code when it is convenient.

They would have the same right regardless of where they were. However, it would be just as good or just for a Paladin to turn someone in for justice when in a area with a legitimate authority. Execution by the Paladin is not the only form of justice.

and it was paladins bringing up the fact that they had a legal (not god given) right to act as judge, jury executioner.

I only saw where they said they had the right (implying god-given). I didn't see anywhere where they claimed they had legal authority to do so.

as you can see--there are a few countries which may recognize a travelling paladin as the "law" but most won't

And whether they do or not doesn't really matter to the discussion. What truely matters is 'Does the Paladin's diety consider the Paladin to have the authority to judge and punish wrongdoers?' not 'does the land where the Paladin is in consider him to have the authority?'.

Quite a few of those places that you mentioned as not being paladin-justice friendly also would not be considered to be legitimate authorities by a Paladin.

Your behavior, nothing else, determines whether your behavior is Good, Evil, or Neutral. The target of your behavior does nothing to justify your behavior either way.

A prison guard escorting a Jewish man to a gas chamber could be a Nazi gassing an innocent or a servant of the state performing a legally ordered execution of a serial murderer. In neither case is the good/evil/neutral aspect of the guard's behavior defined by the fact he is escorting a helpless Jewish man to a gas chamber, but by the full set of circumstances.

Actually, in this case who the prisoner is (IE the target of your behavior) that determines whether it is a good or evil act. you could commit the same behavior and it would be good or evil depending.

In fact, the rules quoted for alignment do specify that killing an innocent is an evil act.

In my (granted 3.x) campaign, I only allow casters to choose spells from the PHB. Anything from another source, the character has to find somehow. This includes divine casters and/or anything that always has full access to all spells.

I find that 'take advantage of the wording' is a very subjective concept.

Where does it say that in the rules, specifically?

Doesn't give you the ability to ignore any DR, which is the best thing about the Paladin's ability imo.

I believe you are defining GM fiat differently than I do. Basically GM fiat means them changing how the actual rule works. GM's have full power to do that as long as the players agree (In the sense that if they don't like a GM ruling, they're allowed to walk out of the game. No players=No game).

However, in discussions about what the actual rules are, GM fiat is useless as a determiner of what the rule is. Arguments that 'A GM will never allow you to get away with that' are useless because some GM's might plus that sort of argument will engender bad feelings as it's basically an accusation of the other person being a 'bad person' for even thinking of using the rule that way.

However, it is a good idea to know what the rule actually is before deciding to change it. I have several pages of house rules that I give my players where I say what I changed with the rules. Some is for thematic reasons, others for balance reasons.

Ahhh...Didn't realize that. Thought it was a standard action cast.

Another thing to consider is keep the action going with several encounters in the same day. Casters can't keep up the constant barrage of spells, whereas melee can keep it up at a constant rate.

Of course, a 20th level caster can beat the searching the home bit by constinuously selling a casting of mending. 50gp per casting, 10 castings per minute, 60 minutes per hour...30,000 gp in an hour's work.

Here's one I thought of. Pay for the extravagent lifestyle. This allows you to find any item costing up to 25 gp in 1d10 minutes. Continuously search your house for a pound of saffron, which you can sell for 15 gp.

You earn 1309 gp in an 8 hour day. (For a 1000 gp investment)

Take the leadership feat and have all of your followers do this. (For even more fun, have all your cohorts take leadership down the line and do this).

I don't believe there's rules for what happens if you don't sleep, so technically, you could do this 24 hours a day, 7 days a week...

And if you do it on a demi-plane where time is sped up...You're looking at income in the 6 million gp per day range.

Skyth wrote:

Anyone who claims that they never sleep because there's no penalties for it is out as a game partner for me.

Glad to see you go, then, because that's a Paizo-sanctioned rule. There's an NPC in one of their adventure paths who takes a lesser restoration every day in lieu of sleeping.

The claim is that there is no penalty for not sleeping. The Barbarian never claimed to be getting a lesser restoration. No point without a penalty.

Easy enough to explain why. Barbarian doesn't like losing and being proven wrong. Especially since the barbarian doesn't like it when other people exploit rules loopholes. That's only for the barbarian.

Anyone who claims that they never sleep because there's no penalties for it is out as a game partner for me. Same with claiming the ability to pounce with a lance. I also don't play with Chaotic Evil characters (anyone who just automatically kills every caster they enounter is CE, I don't care what's on your character sheet). (I wouldn't play with the mage builds I've come up with either.)

TRUE, BUT AM ALREADY ESTABLISHED BARBARIAN NOT GET BEATEN WITH JUST SPELL LIST.

Actually, I have. Sick Solars or Balors on him. Using spells to summon them. Not to mention, Barbarian hasn't shown how to kill caster without using just the barbarian's abilities. Hypocritical and moving the goal posts.

I've also posted two wizards that the barbarian can at best draw against. (One he can't find, the other he cannot stop)

LOW-END ESTIMATES ON WBL COST TO ACTUALLY HOLD CANDLE TO BARBARIAN AM IN 3.5 BILLION GP RANGE, AND REQUIRE MILLIONS OF MAN-HOURS. AM NOT ENTIRELY CERTAIN SPENDING ENTIRE WBL ON MILLION COHORTS AM CONDUCIVE TO ADVENTURE TIME.

I've done it 4 times all with starting within WBL, 3 times keeping within it. Besides the fact that the barbarian's plan involves the barbarian acting on the surprise round when he hasn't made a perception check (only his mount has) and using a charge action against something that he doesn't have sight for (only his mount does).

AFTER USING CRYSTAL BALL WITH 1 HOUR CASTING TIME TO SCRY ON BARBARIAN EVERY TURN IN ROW.

...SERIOUSLY? THAT AM PLAN?

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all

Try again. One standard action to use the crystal ball. Nothing is stated in the crystal ball description to require an hour to cast it.

Skyth wrote:

Per RAW, There is no penalty for being dead, and with die hard, you have operate at negative hit points.

How the hell do you get that there's no penalty for being dead? You're DEAD. As in no longer alive. Doing things require you to be alive. And you know have a soul in your body. I've seen people trying to twist RAW, but you're going a bit too far.

We already have Barbarian claiming that he never sleeps because per RAW, there's no penalty. He is also claiming that he can pounce with a lance during the surprise round when he doesn't see the target, but his mount does.

If he's going to twist RAW to try to prove that no caster can beat him, then I will too.

More importantly, though, AM doesn't need Leadership to get a strong BATTY BAT. Leadership is just what takes BATTY BAT from being strong to being OMGWTF.

Actually, I'm not aware of a way to get a flying mount without leadership for the barbarian.

I still say the best way is through being on your own demi plane, having a spotter to find targets (Stealth 74 invisibile. Perception is only 33, but against a large target, even less of a problem).

Watch the scout with a crystal ball with true seeing. Once you find a target, sick your 7 pet Balors on it (Gate them to the plane, have them greater teleport to where the scout described with sign language using knowledge(geography) ). Surprise round means they teleport in and all quicken telekenisis to disarm. If the barb wins init, he might charge one of them. Assuming he kills one, then the other 6 teleport next to him and quicken tk disarm again. I'm guessing the CMD is pretty high, but that's 13 chances to roll a 20. Plus with the Balors right next to him, he can't charge and is hacked up. Spell sunder won't work because the Balors are called, not summoned. Throw body in a plane with no magic after looting so he won't come back, and we're done.

The other method, which I described a while back earlier is just to simply have die hard on the mage. Barbarian can then never drop the mage. Per RAW, There is no penalty for being dead, and with die hard, you have operate at negative hit points.

HRM. SO. CASTY AM BREAKING ALL RULES RELATED TO WBL, WAY SCRYING FROM CRYSTAL BALL WORKS (NOTE CASTER TIME. AM REALLY HARD TO PASS ONE, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE ONE AM STILL 1/DAY), WAY TELEPORTATION WORK, AM ASSUMING THAT EVERY SINGLE FOLLOWER AM SINGLE CLASS AND SINGLE BUILD, AND ALSO ASSUMING BARBARIAN SOMEHOW NOT NOTICE MASS GATHERING OF CASTYS IN PLACE.

YES, GM FIAT AM STILL ABLE TO KILL BARBARIAN. THIS ESTABLISHED LAST TIME THIS CAME UP. BUT IF AM MAKING STUFF UP, CLEARLY BARBARIAN ABLE TO DO SAME THING. WHO WANT SEE BARBARIAN STORY?

The only rule regarding WBL is that it's a suggested point that you start at. No rule says you can't move past it during play. I could do it without breaking WBL as well if I wanted to.

Second off, I am not misunderstanding how scrying works. "If the save succeeds, you can't attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours." Notice the 'you'. Pass the crystal ball to the next person down the list.

And I'm not ignoring how teleportation works. Move through a teleport circle, and you get transported. No action required.

Barbarian isn't going to notice a gathering of wizards because they're not on his plane until they want to be. The only one who would be would be the scout that the barbarian can't detect.

I'm trying not to go the evil route, or I'd just distract him for a couple rounds with some Balors or Pit Fiends. They can teleport by themselves.

Solars could do the same thing, but they can't be controlled so you can't stockpile them. Granted, could pop 11 out and bribe them, showing them the evil barbarian and they would go take him out with pleasure. Could do that twice a day and wouldn't even have to risk my followers.

Skyth wrote:

Fozbek wrote:

Skyth wrote:

They teleport in so no chance to detect them before hand.

How, precisely, are you teleporting in hundreds of individuals in a single round?

A couple teleportation circles (Cast off scrolls) would do the trick.

Or a gate spell.

Gate spell allows 2 way travel. That's not ideal.

Well, one would have to find him through conventional means. Can anyone make gather information rolls with 20 points in diplomacy?

Yes, the build does have over a 20 in diplomacy, but he could be scryed as well. Basic idea is that the only person he would have a chance of encountering is a high-stealth cohort. Barbarian has no statistical chance of finding cohort before cohort sees him. Even if he does find and kill cohort, cohort can be brought back (True ressurection). Cohort reports back with description enabling scrying. Play pass the crystal ball until barbarian fails enough will saves/uses all his rages per day doing spell sunders.

Skyth wrote:

They teleport in so no chance to detect them before hand.

How, precisely, are you teleporting in hundreds of individuals in a single round?

A couple teleportation circles (Cast off scrolls) would do the trick.

Sarrion wrote:

Wouldn't AM BARBARIAN see the horde of wizards? If AM BARBARIAN kills 5 wizards, does that cause the wizards leadership score drop by 5 instantly thus causing him to lose close to 50+ followers and 2 cohort levels? Though i guess it could be argued that putting 135 people into the path of a casty hating barbarian isn't killing them but merely putting them in an unfavorable circumstance.

It appears that the penalty is only cumulative for dead cohorts, since the note indicating that the penalty is cumulative is absent from the follower table. Additionally a level 20 sorcerer will have a much higher leadership score than 25, but exactly how high doesn't really matter sice the last line on the leadership table is 25 or more.

Also there is the question of whether the leader "caused" the death of the follower, but if it isn't cumulative it doesn't matter.

Also, the score reflects what you recruit. Nothing says that they leave if your leadership score drops.

Wouldn't AM BARBARIAN see the horde of wizards? If AM BARBARIAN kills 5 wizards, does that cause the wizards leadership score drop by 5 instantly thus causing him to lose close to 50+ followers and 2 cohort levels? Though i guess it could be argued that putting 135 people into the path of a casty hating barbarian isn't killing them but merely putting them in an unfavorable circumstance.

They teleport in so no chance to detect them before hand.

Having a follower killed is only a -1 to leadership, doesn't matter how many are killed. Leadership score is high enough that that won't matter. Cohorts stay with you regardless, penalty is seperate for causing the death of cohorts from followers, and only affects attracting new ones.

Actually, as soon as you started making claims about being a moron, that was an ad hominum.

Everything I have said is completely 100% by RAW. It's an abuse of RAW, but so is claiming that you don't have to sleep or that you can pounce charge with a lance especially against something you can't see, but your mount can.

Saying 'nope, doesn't work' and resorting to personal attacks when it plainly does work doesn't work.

Already did prove it. And yes, I can get that much money and yes, I can get that many NPC's following me. Completely by the rules.

I've already explained how to get them in, etc. But faced with a real thought out challenge, where the wizard is being smart and not fighting on the Barbarian's terms, you resort to ad hominum attacks.

Hrm. So you're making up a scenario based on nothing that actually happened?

Seems bad for the nameless barbarian, good thing it isn't AM.

Actually, it is. Since I didn't see you roll any dice to hit or roll damage, or even roll a perception check...Ummm...No kills.

If you're breaking WBL, so is he.

As I said, he already is breaking it in his build with his cohort.

Ergo, it's a cancel out situation. And that's the amount of wealth a character is supposed to have for THAT LEVEL, not just 'starting' at that level. And it's capped by the next level. Since there IS no next level, you're at your...

Nope. Part of my build and tactics is having a way to generate that much cash. One of the benefits of being a high level wizard. WBL is a suggested guide for wealth, not a hard limit. So, it's what a character starts at at any given level.

The crystal ball works because if he makes the will save, that caster can't try again...Hand it to the next caster in the line. He spell sunders it, there goes a round of rage for the day. On average with the amount of casters I have, that's 76 rolls of a 1 per day. He doesn't have that number of rounds of rage per day.

The disjunction has you take one save per item, plus it automatically dispels any effects.

All of a sudden schroedinger's barbarian has tons of necklaces of fireballs in his magical pouch to deal with hordes...How nice...

Nope, you never actually killed all those wizards. Each comparison would be on it's own. And I doubt the barbarian would have 300 wizards since the build is already set, unless he is changing the build for each wizard he encounters.

I'm packing an estimated 761 wizards (Besides the main one) btw :) The magic missile damage was only from 755. Besides, since the barbarian needs NPC's to stand any chance at all against a wizard, can't really complain.

And it's 3 million gp per day. So, 21 million after a week. (Recalculating, actual amount is closer to 6 million per day...41.5 million after a week).

Except you can't generate that much money, because it blows your WBL. You'd lose it the instant you earned it...or never earn it at all, since anyone with half a brain would be doing the same thing and devalue your work down to 0.

Casters can make 500 gp net profit/day, right up until they smack into their WBL, at which point they cease to be able to make anything (the market is saturated). So, no, you aren't earning a bloody dime beyond your WBL, and that is RAW.

Incorrect. There is no limit to the amount of wealth a character has per RAW. You just start with the WBL amount. Especially since the Barbarian is breaking the WBL for his cohort.

You'd probably also find it really annoying if he procures something that gives him immunity to magic missiles, too...like a Contingent Spell Immunity, or something. It's not like you're going to be able to hide your monstrous horde of MM casters, right?

===Aelryinth

First off, the other things will kill him then. And yes, I could hide the monstruos horde of MM casters, besides the point that a crystal ball could find him (once he encounters the cohort that he wouldn't be able to see before the cohort saw him and reports back about him or encounters the scrying symbols) and the group could teleport circle in from different locations/vantage points.

Starting off with a disjunction will get rid of any contingencies, not to mention, that you have a base amount set and putting in a contingent immunity to magic missiles is pulling a schroedinger's barbarian.

Oh, and with SR 19, just from followers it's an average of 858.85 points of damage if it's only magic missiles. Can the barbarian fly into a rage as an immediate action?

Except it's already been established that the barbarian has no chance of finding the high level wizard before that wizard finds him.

Skyth wrote:

600+ magic missile spells in one turn should do in the barbarian as well.

I'm sure it would. From what, the minions you gained with leadership? (If so, that's pretty clever actually. Now you just have to stay alive to do it.)

He'd have to get through the minions and bound creatures to get to the main caster. He'd kill...5 on the charge assuming he went first? (Even assuming he can get a charge and assuming that pounce works with lance).

Give the character a week, and I probably could hit him with over 1400 magic missiles in one round. I'll actually have to stat it out, but a rough guess at the character has him generating almost 3 million gp per day. Can get plenty of equipment/called monsters/etc with that. Total RAW abuse, but on par with a barbarian that doesn't need to sleep.

I guess those feats do nothing then if you want to play by RAW :)

600+ magic missile spells in one turn should do in the barbarian as well.

An interesting thing to consider is that an 18th level cohort has a max of 75k in equipment, of which 23k can be protective items. (96k/28k if heroic) It's already been claimed that he has 106k in items (Ring of spell turning, boots of speed) of which 100k are protective items.

The problem is that the barbarian works off of contradictory concepts. He automatically charges and kills any wizard he detects, but he has permament magic cast on him by a wizard...Something doesn't gel there.

I still say the best tactic is one where the wizard (Who it has been proven undetectable by the barbarian) just sends called minions at the barbarian constantly. A wizard can blow his full spell selection 5 times per day. Barbarian can only naturally heal...And since he doesn't sleep he doesn't get that even? (Couldn't find the rules for natural healing). Scrying will find the barbarian every time, even if the barbarian only fails on a 1. Just hand the crystal ball to one of your followers to find him if he saves against you (Not to mention, that should get rid of the spell turning effect from the first couple attempts).

The assumption is that any wizard will just go and blast a barbarian. That fails to account for the high intelligence of the wizard and all the abilities of the wizard. A wizard that just is by himself and just automatically blasts things without thinking about it won't live to level 20. He will be prepared for unexpected situations, even assuming he is out by himself in an open area where he can be easily charged.

And if you are doing pure RAW, any wizard with die hard cannot be defeated by the barbarian, as he can act at negative hit points and there is no penalty for being dead.

Not to mention, by RAW, a wizard has effectively infinite wealth (sell a level 0 spell casting for 100 gp each round, every round, for 24 hours a day...Comes out to 720k/day for a level 20 wizard just by himself).

So basically sounds like you are tryin to give your barbarian the flexibility of a wizard by metagaming his equipment to exactly what you need to counter any specific wizard build. Encounter another wizard, magically you have the right equipment to counter that one all of a sudden.

Schroedinger's barbarian anyone?

See, this is how caster wins...Sees barbarian, barbarian doesn't see him (Already established). Goes home, gets his income for the day (Around 900,000 gp each day per RAW), sicks 4 solars (Not summoned, so not dispellable) on the Chaotic Evil barbarian that is killing every mage he encounters randomly. Rinse, repeat and repeat 12 hours later.

Eventually the barbarian will go down. Might take a couple days, but it would happen eventually :)

Clearly from the posts, the barbarian has an intelligence as a dump stat, and thus has 1 skill point per level ;)

However, the barbarian has conceeded the fight already since he just posts nonsense without actually using/explaining the the rules used in proper english or having the build.

It just seems that the build is constantly fluxuating depending on which type of caster he needs to kill in which situation. Posting that he only fails anything on a 1 without saying the bonus or how he got to that bonus.

Afterall, I'm not sure how the barbarian can survive two disintegrates in one turn with a 95 save DC and that only miss on a 1. (And since there is no target for the spell, spell turning doesn't work).

Well, it really seems like he's playing schroedinger's barbarian here...Without a build posted, it can't be judged. Especially when he's had other people cast all these spells for him...When he goes around killing casters as soon as he notices them.

I don't see how he is getting a dire bat also. It's not on the list of cohorts or animal companions.

A ring of spell turning was mentioned, but that wouldn't affect the mount. Dead mount is a falling and the splattered Barbarian.

AM FINE IF THAT AM HOW CASTY WANT PLAY IT... BUT CASTY AM RELYING ON HOUSERULES TO WIN.

PER RAW, BARBARIAN QUITE CERTAINLY STILL WINNER.

Per RAW, barbarian never finds the wizard. Wizard can cast spells that do not give away his position.

[

OH LOOK. POINTS BARBARIAN ALREADY COVERED.

And hasn't rebutted effectively

1) TRIVIAL SPELLCRAFT AM STILL SPELLCRAFT, WHICH AM STILL ACTION. IN VOLATILE ACTION ECONOMY, BARBARIAN FINANCIAL.

However, the spellcraft can be made before the barbarian even realizes that the wizard is around.

2) AM YOU MISS PART WHERE BARBARIAN WEARS AWESOME SUNGLASSES? AM NO SHIRT, BUT AM SUNGLASSES. LOOK AT PICTURE OF MANLIEST MAN TO EVER MAN, AM GET IDEA. HOW CASTY LOOK THROUGH SUNGLASSES AT NIGHT? (SO BARBARIAN CAN SO BARBARIAN CAN).

Sunglasses are not found on the official equipment list as far as I know.

3) BUT NOT AURAS OF MAGIC ITEMS CASTY CARRYING. AS ESTABLISHED, BARBARIAN CHARGE THERE, AND SPELL SUNDER 'INVISIBLE CASTY'. IF AM NOT, BARBARIAN CLEARLY MISS.

Again, finding out what the wizard is carrying is finding out information about the wizard, which is banned by min blank. Try again.

You never even see where the wizard is. Arcane sight is gotten rid of before the barbarian even gets in range to use it. Not to mention, spell sunder is a one time thing.

Skyth wrote:

No action required. Arcane sight makes your eyes glow. Obvious effect would have a trivial spellcraft to figure out. No need to be in range of arcane sight to figure it out either. Not to mention mind blank makes you undetectable by arcane sight.

How many times does it have to be said, they're not detecting you with arcane sight. They're detecting your spells.

Finding out you have magic on you is finding out about you which is banned through mind blank. Try again.

And regardless, arcane sight would have been dispelled.

I do note with some amusement that they've given up on ever defeating the AM BARBARIAN who took leadership. They're trying to attack a notably weaker version of the same thing and declare that a victory.

Take the same henchman. Balances out. Not to mention, a wizard could make the henchman and himself fly.

No action required. Arcane sight makes your eyes glow. Obvious effect would have a trivial spellcraft to figure out. No need to be in range of arcane sight to figure it out either. Not to mention mind blank makes you undetectable by arcane sight.