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Skylancer4's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber. 2,768 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists.


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Don't forget the psionic items. The crystal mantles that can be used to increase the enhancement bonus and point pools for your aegis suit. Maybe toss on the glamoured armor ability to that?

Personally the way I'd run it, if the suit provides the equivalent to face protection/helmet then the face cannot be seen normally, just as if they had a normal helmet on. If not, then the character would have to take precautions as they would normally. No mechanical benefit for free but still able to do what the character wanted if they make the choice to use the appropriate suit.

That being said my aegis in a friends game does have a glamoured mantle for the specific reason of not looking like a walking crystal tin can at all times ;)

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FrozenLaughs wrote:

Implant (Ex)

As a standard action, a xill can lay 2d6 eggs in a helpless creature. A xill's eggs hatch in 24 hours, at which point the young consume the host from within, inflicting 1 point of Con damage per hour per young until the host dies. The young then emerge and planewalk to the Ethereal Plane, if possible, to mature. A remove disease spell (or similar effect) rids a victim of all implanted eggs or active young , or they can be cut out one at a time with DC 20 Heal checks (each attempt takes 10 minutes). If a check fails, the healer can try again, but each attempt (successful or not) deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient.

Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases, including mummy rot.

Does a Paladins Divine Health prevent the Implant ability, or at least the incubation of the eggs? It doesn't state that the eggs are a disease, but are removed with Remove Disease?

I ask because I have a story revolving around an NPC Paladin that was captured and tortured by an Incubus and his Xill bodyguards. For purposes of the story I'm having Divine Health protect her (while she was forced to watch her comrades die, now she's haunted by it, etc etc) but would like to know what the ruling should be.

RAW would be a no, as it isn't a disease but instead a creature's ability causing damage.

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Slayer PrC allows you to maintain a very good manifest level and get a better BAB and HD. I believe that was what I did for my elan melee caster.

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Onyxlion wrote:

Also this is from the feats section.


Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

No where does it say I can't use what the feat gives me to maintain it's prerequisites. Final embrace is a special feat in that it gives you everything it wants as a prerequisite. It's poorly written and maybe that wasn't the intention but like I said before that's my opinion.

Actually you quoted the place where it says you need to have the prereq. You also quoted to place where it states if you lose the prereq you lose access to the benefit of the feat. Ergo, you cannot use the feat to sustain itself.

As soon as you lose the prereq you lose use of the feat, the feat having been lost for use, no longer provides the prereq you need. It doesn't have to say you cannot use the feat to qualify for itself because the order of operations in the logic prevent that from ever occurring.

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Zhayne wrote:
I smell PF's version of 3e's 'Unearthed Arcana', aka 'the big book of house rules'.

To be fair Pathfinder *IS* the big book of house rules already... They made numerous changes to the d20 ruleset many due to how they played the game in thier own groups, and there are even some rules that we've found out don't actually work the way they did in the previous ruleset despite the wording being copied and pasted.

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The same could be said for the normalization of stats today, what is the point besides hand holding and or babying of the players? Many would argue that to be more BS I'd imagine.

Point being, play styles vary. Your opinion isn't any more valid than others, saying rolled stats is BS very poor form. Normalization makes sense in an organized play scenario to keep the board even, it can help new or inexperienced players warm up to the game as well so all the characters are balanced. But "even" and balanced are very very subjective in a pen and paper role playing game. More than a few games I've heard of don't even rely on stats heavily due to the amount of role playing involved.

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Prince of Knives wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Elricaltovilla wrote:

Eh, I don't think it warrants a feat, why would anyone want a feat to be able to put their hands in their pockets? It's probably errata worthy though.

To take advantage of bonuses or abilities of course. It isn't a feat to put your hands in your pockets, it is a feat to allow you to use a weapon in a way it "normally" isn't or cannot be used. Unarmed strikes are always ready/available (unless bound/helpless/etc). They "normally" are completely incapable of being sheathed, just like they are impossible to disarm. So they are unable to be used in certain ways mechanically in game. The feat would allow them to be used in such a way they gain benefits like those in question when they aren't capable of used that way normally. Pretty much exactly what feats were designed to do.
The thing is, the benefit isn't worth spending a feat on. Feats are expensive, and one that only does that? Not worth the expense when you could take just about anything else.

Whether or not it is "worth" it completely depends on what the build does with it. Some feats are sub optimal to say the least, yet they still exist to allow you to do things that you normally cannot. They are what fuel the exception based rule set. It is an option, if you don't like it, you don't take it. If you don't think it is worth it, you don't take it. It still allows something to happen that cannot normally be done.

"Worth" is completely subjective. A +2 to one of your saves in organized play could be completely worth it, yet in your home game that feat would probably never see play unless it was a prerequisite. "Worth" can completely and totally change between groups and probably the players in that same group.

A feat that allowed you to make range attacks with a weapon that cannot be disarmed, stolen or rendered unusable unless your character is rendered ineffective... Well let's say that has "worth" to some people. Whether 90% of the players thinks that it is worth it is irrelevant. It'll be worth it for the few that make use of it.

*wanders off to download the PDF*

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Elricaltovilla wrote:
ErrantX wrote:
Elricaltovilla wrote:
DragGon7601 wrote:

If I take the "Weapon Group Adaptation" feet I can use Mithral Current moves with my fists... Now I just got to work out how to sheath my fist so I can punch people from 30 ft away.

Maybe if I cover it with something, like my pocket... Or my other hand... What do you guys think? Is there a way of using "Iron wave" (2nd level strike) to full effect with your fists?

As the guy who wrote Mithral Current, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to sheathe your fists by putting your hands in your pocket. But it's probably a good idea to take it up with your DM just in case.

For the record, I think its a really cool idea.

You may want to address this in the rules perhaps? Or make a feat that specifically goes with the idea of doing that and gives bonuses of some variety?


Eh, I don't think it warrants a feat, why would anyone want a feat to be able to put their hands in their pockets? It's probably errata worthy though.

To take advantage of bonuses or abilities of course. It isn't a feat to put your hands in your pockets, it is a feat to allow you to use a weapon in a way it "normally" isn't or cannot be used. Unarmed strikes are always ready/available (unless bound/helpless/etc). They "normally" are completely incapable of being sheathed, just like they are impossible to disarm. So they are unable to be used in certain ways mechanically in game. The feat would allow them to be used in such a way they gain benefits like those in question when they aren't capable of used that way normally. Pretty much exactly what feats were designed to do.

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Is this for society play? That makes a difference (I only ask because you put in 4pp which I believe means prestige points). And if that is the case, no evil alignment for you! Organized play has more strict rules so you have to take them into consideration as well.

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Look up necrocraft(?) from one of the recent bestiaries(4 iirc). The guidelines for conglomerate type undead are written up there. Mind you it is not something for PCs really, more for GMs looking for some custom monsters to toss at the players.

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You'll be looking for some way to get pounce.

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Not with out some way to make multiple attacks during full attack action (what it takes to get a charge off).

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AmyGames wrote:

its not a house-rule btw

in the big chart, its under the special tab thing

Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

it doesn't even need DM approval

that's like saying you have to ask the dm if your allowed to craft an INT item

it doesn't add any power to the items, it just allows you to get the items you want, even if two of them share the same slot

EDIT alright, if yall say so ill go with the DM approval thing
its simply not worth discussing

Those are guidelines for GMs who are interested in creating other magical items. They even say that prices resulting from the charts should be compared to existing items before deciding on a final price. Guidelines are not hard and fast rules.

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CommandoDude wrote:

I thought the main draw was getting to bypass DR/Adamantine

You need a +5 weapon to do so otherwise.

Chances are if you are running into something that has adamantine DR at low levels, you're in for a seriously rough ride. At the point you can first afford an adamantine weapon it is essentially a "master key" (if you don't mind not being able to secure the area you are entering again.) I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had a character with an adamantine great sword they hardly ever used on combat...

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Prince of Knives wrote:

Archetypes Beta is now on a GDoc, sorry about the delay in getting it there.

Notable changes:

- Countess damage progression slowed by 2 levels across the board
- Sacrifice has a save
- Pool no longer lets you attack. Want to fight as a pool, better have psionics or stilled spells.

- Ravenlord's Unwanted Missive cleaned up.

Changes will now happen live on the doc.

Crimson claim still not limited in any way? At will swift action, no save, no SR, no attack roll, recurring damage that allows me to gain back a choice manuever makes the game's action economy weep...

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FangDragon wrote:
Wouldn't an oath of vengeance paladin be a better undead slayer?

Possibly, one serious drawback is the number of smites you'd have even with the oath. Ranger is an always available buff, the more numerous the enemy undead the better it is.

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Justin Sane wrote:
Jeremy Smith wrote:
It may be made of energy, but just as the mind blade is a "semi-solid weapon composed of psychic energy", so too is the mind armor - it's semi-solid.
Yet, the Mind Blade has no listed weight :P

There is a difference between weightless and negligible weight, there are several things in the game that have some weight but no appreciable weight in terms of game mechanics. Others have a weight in various quantities but not individually.

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When you get the time you should let us know what they ended up doing ;)

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Prince of Knives wrote:

I now present the very first archetype I've ever designed, our first Path of War 2 archetype, and the first-ever archetype for the Harbinger class, the Crimson Countess!

** spoiler omitted **...

Crimson Claim...

Damage is high for what is eventually a rather potent and long lasting damage over time effect. Don't get me wrong the damage isnt bonkers high, the problem is that it is a swift action SU (so no SR) and with no save or attack roll. It is pretty much unavoidable, and that is bad as an effectively at will ability.

Acid arrow is probably to closest comparison, that requires a ranged attack and deals 2d4 (acid so subject to resistances) for at most 6 rounds (@18th level) AND costs a spell slot to use. Sure you might have 12+x 2nd level slots at 18th (assuming you spend a precious ring slot on it) but it still costs the caster something from its daily allotments. Compare that to this ability which you can basically cycle on up to let's say very conservatively, 5-6 creatures, at 16th level which lasts 8 rounds and inflicts 2.5 times the damage for no resource drain at all, no worry about hitting (no attack roll or save), resistances or spell resistance. And doesnt claiming give back maneuvers? The harbinger is already efficient on getting back manuevers, this makes it ridiculous. The ability is entirely too good.

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Nomad Sage wrote:

I've been a silent lurker on this thread for a while now, but want to throw in a vote of support and confidence! I was a big fan of ToB when it came out, and this project has totally resparked my interest in the maneuver system. I don't have the time to playtest or proofread, but I wish I could help out! Either way, this is on my *must buy* list for when it gets the green light...

Question for DSP (apologies if this got answered already), but does the Work in Progress bundle include the POW2 items?

The current item on the DSP store is for PoW1 only. PoW2 will be a separate purchase.

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I'm a little surprised no on mentioned the Oradin. Granted it multi classes into oracle but it is very effective at what it does. Basically you "tank" by absorbing the other party members damage through the life link from life oracle. You use your swift action to LoH yourself which allows you your full round actions still.

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After reading the names I recognized them... Entirely too late to be allowing myself to post, apparently the brain and was not functioning! Thanks for the "reminder"!

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3 more base classes really? I've definitely seen the harby and a few archetypes to go with it, a few new schools/disciplines, as well as a probably a few PrCs (When I asked about a Martial/Psionic PRC, it was mentioned it wouldn't make it into the first book). I haven't seen anything about another class recently. I'd be interested to know what the others would be too.

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Any information on this with the pushed back date coming up?

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If there was only the "limit" of only being able to use IUS to make an attack, use as a delivery system of an effect or perform an action/effect. It could act as a "delimiter" here. If there was only that one contradiction to deal with I'd agree it works.

But the "effect" of the feat is based off a certain specific list of weapons. We have a second limit in the feat which FCT doesn't bypass or make exception to. I can use my natural attack to use this feat but the feat doesn't function unless I'm using one a specific list of weapons. I can't gain the benefit of the feat due to that, I'm not using the right weapon.

This is an exception based game. The rules tell you what you can do, and when there are exceptions to the general rules. There isn't just one check made for an action to be viable. It has to check true to all involved restrictions. Just because the general rules say you can move 30', doesn't mean that is always allowed. If you are encumbered or wearing medium/heavy armor or any number of any other possible restrictions, you don't get to move 30'. Everything involved needs to be "allowing" the action. Or every restriction needs to be be "delimited" for it to work.

FCT doesn't grant exception to the feats inherent limitations. So we have the potential but once the feat checks the weapon, we fail to have a way bypass the restriction.

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It would probably be a low magic setting. As for the "dying part", I'd run deaths as temporary (maybe a day or two later you come back if you aren't raised by the party before then). On each unassisted recovery impose a permanent -1 penalty to Cha. Once you get to O you go hallow/lose control of your character.

Even if you completely ditch Cha you have a handful of "free" deaths. Also this dovetails nicely with Cha being useful for clerics & paladins who should be more resistant to going hallow.

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Yep, if you need access to anything higher might want to look into magic items. Or you know, take levels of the class ;p If you could cherry pick spells/powers just using feats it would degrade the classes that actually get them as class abilities.

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Perfect Strike tells you what weapons it functions with, period. FCT doesn't state anywhere it allows you to bypass the restriction in the feat itself. FCT grants the potential to be used with any feat with IUS, but a specific limitation is still a limitation.

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Crossbow, gets Dex to hit and no STR penalty on damage. Also at low levels (if you have the money to spare) pellet grenades & tanglefoot bags can be nasty.

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I look at it this way. FCT allows exception to the general rules by allowing natural attacks to essentially be used in place of unarmed strikes. The general rules being, to do xyz with such and such ability/feat you are making an unarmed strike (IE stunning fist let's say). So the new general rule becomes NA is essentially IUS.

Now where your Perfect Strike situation falls apart for me is the feat itself. FCT allows the potential to work, it has IUS as a prerequisite. The full stop occurs in Perfect Strike's write up. It doesn't list unarmed strike as a weapon able to access the benefit of the feat. The specifics of the feat state you need to be using one of the following "kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, and siangham." Improved unarmed strike isn't on that list.

Even though FCT gives you the potential, the specifics of the feat keep you from gaining the benefit of the feat unless using a specified weapon. If it had unarmed strike listed, or if the text just applied to "attacks made" in a general sense, FCT could work its magic. But there is a specific list of weapons that the feats benefit can be applied to. Specific > General rules.

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Rhatahema wrote:

This was an issue in 3.5 as well, so it'd be nice to see it settled. You'd have thought they'd have made just one table for all increases/decreases at the start of 3.0, but two revisions later and the rules are still scattered.

I've always leaned towards using the two Improved Natural Attack progressions for all increases and decreases, though it's a bit awkward to expand that progression by having 1d10 reduce to 1d8 (since 1d8 typically increases to 2d6). It's all that d10's fault!

The 3.5 Rules Compendium (pg 152) had a damage progression table that progressed the various damage dice (1d2 up to 2d20) four steps up and down. So they actually did settle the "issue" and put it in one place. Just happens to be a book most people don't own I guess.

1d10 progressed to 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8.

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Pc-gen isn't a Paizo product so even if you use it for a "check" it doesn't mean much. I believe it has been mentioned by official Paizo staff that multiple instances of an attribute being applied to any specific stat do not stack. You'd only get it once regardless of it being untyped.

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Will this new material be part of the WiP series and therefore available along with the first four parts (which I own and are great). Just curious.

I believe it has been mentioned that it is going to be part of a seperate PoW2 release and eventually it could make it to a consolidated book if there was enough interest. I've been trying to follow here, DSP and the GitP forums so stuff tends to get muddled together so don't quote me on it.

Edit: Actually a post here by Jeremy (further up the page) mentions current classes & supplemental will go into PoW1 softcover and current play test material will be put into PoW2. I want to say the combined hardcover was mentioned over in DSP.

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YuenglingDragon wrote:
I would write Word of Retribution as "If you succeed, you deal damage to the attacker equal to the damage it dealt you [before or after] damage reduction or resistance."

To be fair, if you didn't take the damage, it wasn't dealt to you. Not sure the wording needs to be changed to include DR or resistances.

It isn't an attack being reflected (where DR/resists would matter). It is the damage taken by you, which sets the damage of a typeless attack inflicted on your attacker.

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If I remember correctly it was basically a feat chain. Take this feat, gain this ability. Once you had them all you were basically a full on vampire.

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Prince of Knives wrote:

Fading Hope has been replaced by:

Bleak Prophecy (Su): Those claimed by the Harbinger are filled with dreadful visions of their own demise; starting at 12th level, creatures Claimed by the Harbinger are also shaken while the Claim persists.

This should probably allow for a save. Swift action persistent and unavoidable shaken is a bit on the powerful side. Don't forget shaken can be "stacked" to eventual fear.

Give it a save & it will probably be right on the mark.

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The rules state "Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

Putting in a spell 2 levels higher than normal due to a meta magic feat is allowed. The calculation cares about the higher adjusted level of the effect, it is more powerful so the price increases.

Your casting of the spell at a lower personal spell slot cost doesn't come into effect when pricing out magical items. Just because you have a reduced effective level and can memorize/cast the higher level effect at a "discount" doesn't matter to the magical item formula. It is concerned with the effective level of the spell effect. Just like items don't care about what your personal DC of a spell is when they replicate a spell you used in their creation.

Traits like magical lineage and feats like spell perfection function on the character mechanically. They reduce the cost of a characters abilities for all intents and purposes. The item isn't you, it doesn't benefit from those things. When pricing an empowered fireball the item creation rules care about the end effect for pricing purposes, not what spell slot you used to to supply the spell during its creation.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

By the way, Kingmaker ends at 17th level.

So, whatever I suggest, needs to come full circle by then.

Okay, with current suggestions:

Azata Aasamir(Scion of Humanity)
Str 10/Dex 18/Con 12/Int 13/Wis 8/Cha14
Dawnflower Dervish 4/Standard Bearer Cavalier 1/ Battle Herald 7
1. Enforcer (Blade of mercy & Signature Moves traits)
3. Combat Expertise
5. Butterfly Sting & Outflank
7. Arcane Strike
9. Lunge
11. Discordant Voice?

Then... ?

Is Lunge worth it?

If a Keen weapon is not available, would Improved Critical be better?

Also, is there anything else I missed?

Is butterfly sting really worth it (meaning is enough of the rest of the party going to be in a better position to do more damage)? Dawnflower Dervish 12 (+FCB to inspire courage), will be giving you a +8 morale to hit/damage as a static bonus, toss in a +4 keen courageous weapon, that goes up to a +10 morale bonus. That is 2d6+28 damage on a crit (15+ rolls) before counting in PA, DEX/STR or any other possible additions.

Unless most of the party is using x3 weapons, or has better crit riders (don't forget Enforcer causes you to frighten, causing your opponent to run away, provoking attacks for movement and moving out of position on top of shaken), chances are you should be keeping your crits. You don't get to choose who will hit after you crit, so you might be more reliable.

Lunge is iffy for this character honestly, you can go Sound Striker with DD to get a utility ranged touch attack, you can get a ranged weapon (your Dex is high, grab a bow) and arcane strike it to make it magical if needed.

I'd probably go (if you really don't want to go the moonlight stalker route):

Bard (Dawnflower Dervish/Sound Striker) 12
1: Enforcer (BoM, SM traits)
3: Arcane Strike (if you don't have a magic weapon, else swap with 5th)
5: Lingering Performance (make the most of your rounds)
7: Extra Bardic Performance (fuel ranged attacks if needed or swap with 9th if you are feeling squishy)
9: Combat Expertise (your AC might be lagging at this point OR if you can manage a +4 belt of dex/str, Power Attack, more damage)
11: Improved Crit (if you didn't manage a keen weapon by now, else free feat)

And you have full casting progression. Post 12th level you'll need to get a headband of CHA +2 to maintain spell casting (5th levels spells at 13th, 6th level spells at 16th).

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Tels wrote:

Problem with Battle Herald, it doesn't let you use Inspire Command rounds to fuel Bardic Performance, so the Dawnflower Dervish with have a limited supply of BP rounds. You also lose out on spell casting and favored class bonus.

I think just sticking to Dawnflower Dervish is the best choice.

It can be used to inspire courage however, and that will be the main use of performance as a DD.

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rpewin01 wrote:
Can anyone explain how it would work to go dawnflower dervish into battle herald? Does the inspire courage bonus continue level-for-level? I'm a halfling dawnflower bard about to hit 4th level, and more focused on martial aspects than spells, but not sure if it's worth it.

It usually isn't worth giving up spells unless you have a solid plan for why. If you are just getting a few BAB for the trade... the spells are probably more useful.

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rpewin01 wrote:
Can anyone explain how it would work to go dawnflower dervish into battle herald? Does the inspire courage bonus continue level-for-level? I'm a halfling dawnflower bard about to hit 4th level, and more focused on martial aspects than spells, but not sure if it's worth it.
Battle Herald, Inspiring Command wrote:
All battle heralds may use inspiring command to inspire courage (as the bardic performance ability); bard and battle herald levels stack to determine the bonuses provided by inspire courage.

Battle Herald on d20pfsrd

You'd be able to use the inspiring command to fuel the inspiring courage (I believe personal only due to Battle Dance/DD, modifying the abilities), and would have an equivalent amount of rounds as a full bard with a single level of Cavalier to gain the prereq's, Battle Herald gives 4+CHA mod at first level). There would only be a single level of inspire courage advancement lost due to cavalier in such a case.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Is Moonlight Stalker worth sacrificing Power Attack?

How will he get a reliable source of concealment?

I would say with the Enforcer build, it is potentially worth the loss (or at least delay) of Power Attack. You're getting the bonus damage from Arcane Strike (+1 damage per 5 levels), you're getting a decent filler feat (Blind fighting) as well as a good defensive feat (Combat Expertise) and have a reliable and long lasting source of concealment (Blur and/or Darkness @4th level/4minute duration) until you can afford a minor cloak of displacement (or similar item).

That build nets you a +2 to hit/+4 damage at 9th level when you get it, with potential to buff your AC from that feat (and prereqs) + Arcane Strike. If you took PA, you'd have 2 open feats and the potential for more damage, but to gain it you'd be taking penalties to hit. That means less consistent damage over time (misses removing all damage from a hit, as opposed to hitting more regularly for slightly less). Add +1 to hit and dodge to AC when adjacent to 2 opponents (which makes being able to bump AC even more important - Combat Expertise comes into its own) as well as a situational +4 morale to DEX. Toss in your inspire courage being up to 4 levels higher at 9th level, you're getting an additional +6 morale to hit/damage (+3 at 11th, you'll be getting +4[8] at ChLvl 12).

If all you are worried about is hitting often and hard, I'd drop Imp Initiative and put PA in that feat slot for that build. Or if you know you can get a keen weapon, get rid of Imp Critical and put PA there.

I would consider still keeping the Sound Striker archtype too. Being able to have access to a ranged touch attack and/or AoE which can still debuff with shaken or allow you to bypass DR/Blunt or Piercing could be handy. Think of it as utility ability, you already have another bard who can do the face/suggestion bit so no real loss.

Enforcer doesn't work on things immune to non lethal/intimidate, true. But that just means you're doing straight damage instead of getting "normal" hits + perk. It doesn't hurt you to have it though. You are just that much more effective when it does come into play. If you are going through a typical AP/campaign, it is worth it. If you are running an undead/construct/plant/ooze heavy campaign than no, it isn't. That is kind of implied however. No mention has been made of what they are running so all else being equal the build is worth consideration.

@Goblin stuffs: Getting +8 to all your saves at 12th (+6 favored class bonus to count as 18th level for the +4 inspired courage & doubled by battle dance), would be very nice. But 2 feats to get it is rough and probably not worth it with the enforcer build proposed.

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My guess would be as a bard, you'll have a decent amount of skill points and will have a decent CHA score so while it doesn't have to be an "intimidation focused PC" it can be a useful tool. If you can get your damage to non lethal (Blade of Mercy), it will provide a pretty much always on penalty (every scimitar and weird word attack will do slashing damage which can force free repeated intimidate checks) to saving throws, AC and skill/ability checks.

Cleave is probably just a way to get a second attack at low levels or when you are unable to use a full attack action. With a high DEX, +1 to Dodge and +1 to hit (when adjacent to 2 opponents), and the ability to bump DEX an additional +4 with rage, the penalty to AC for using it is negligible.

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SH527 wrote:

Sorry to be so dense, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right. When you say 1 nature attack do you mean one type of natural attack or just one natural attack. Meaning if I select the claws to be enhanced with my arcane pool does that mean just one claw ( say the left claw) is enhanced for a the duration or both claws are enhanced for the duration because they are the same type of natural weapon.

Same example at higher level with the calikang would the arcane pool enhance just one arm or all six

Thanks again.

A single claw would gain the benefit.

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WotW = Way of the Wicked, 3PP AP. Based on playing "Bad guys/taking control of the world types."

WotR = Wrath of the Righteous, Paizo AP. Based on playing "Good guys/saving the world types."

Your concept wouldn't work at all for the first, the second it would be fine.

If it is WotR, I honestly am not sure I'd want to delay spell casting and synth abilities for 4 levels. I would probably suggest taking at most 2 levels of paladin, get the weapon/armor proficiencies and the CHA to saving throws. Use the smite on an opponent who has an AC that is giving you problems due to your lower BAB or to gain a better AC vs a particularly deadly opponent.

Pally 3 doesn't grant you anything amazing (immunity to fear and your saves are already great) and a mercy which could be taken care of by an inexpensive magical consumable. Pally 4 nets you a spell or two, a second smite (which you could get from a magical item) and a weak channel positive energy (as you'll never be increasing it past that point). Oath lets you swap out channels for smites, BUT a in a few levels the summoner spells and abilities you could have had from the Eidolon will probably outshine the extra smite or two you are getting from it.

If you are dead set on the concept, see if the GM will let you retrain that last level into Summon(Synth). Start saving up for Bracers of the Avenging Knight (d20pfsrd) if you really want that extra smite use. Once you get mythic power, grab the mythic smite so you can get more smites per day if you really feel the need for more. If you are going that far into a casting class and not dipping to get into a PrC for meeting prereqs faster/easier, don't "waste" levels in a class that isn't progressing your main focus. If it weren't for summoner being a CHA based caster I wouldn't even recommend going past paladin 1 for the concept. Getting your casting stat to saves is too good, going past that point isn't worth it however.

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Faskill wrote:

I've got another question, how does the melee transmogrift work early game exactly?

I have difficulties seeing why half elf is a good option for this build (I assume half orc is for the bite attack? )
How could a half elf get 3 attacks at level 4?

As stated in the guide, 1/2 Elf has a floating stat bonus (STR is where you want it), 1/2 orc has a STR bonus. I'm not even sure the guide mentions taking the bite attack as an orc as it would take one of your traits or feats to get. The STR bonus is what you are after with both (or Tiefling if you can get the alternate stat array, again as mentioned in the guide).

Shocking grasp & frostbite for the first 7 levels. Rimed Frostbite for when you will be killing multiple "little" guys as you have multiple uses of it. Shocking grasp for when you want to drop something fast (big hits). When you get Enforcer, Rimed Frostbites will entangle and debuff the opponents.

At 4th level, you can open with Slumber before closing into combat. If it works, at worst it wastes another of the opponents actions to wake them, at best free kill.

At 6th level, Misfortune everything you might want to slumber or that will possibly get a saving throw versus one of you/your ally's follow up attacks. And you can fly.

7th level is when you get the first Monstrous Physique spell. Gargoyle is mentioned. Your BAB allows for 2 attacks with a manufactured weapon and you can use your natural attacks as secondary for 2 more additional attacks (totaling 4 attacks).

Getting 3 attacks at 4th level, would probably be using Alter Self into some humanoid shape that grants 2 claws and a bite. You'd hold your sword in one hand(losing the claw) and you'd be able to use the second claw and bite as secondary attacks.

Or the 2nd build has Hex Magus: Prehensile Hair at 4th, Alter self into a shape that has 2 claw attacks, grow your hair for a 3rd natural attack. 3 attacks at 4th.

Both builds require finding shapes that give you access to multiple natural attacks, basically that is the "trick" to it.

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Kieviel wrote:

Hi Folks,

My group and I recently started a WotW campaign and I thought it would be fun to play a paladin that had been the victim of a botched possession attempt by a shadow demon. Over the course of the campaign the PC would slowly redeem the demon dwelling within. Originally I was planning on going Paladin-Oath of Vengeance 4/ Summoner-Synthesist 16. But I'm beginning to think that this will be an extremely large amount of bookkeeping especially with mythic layered on top.

So. Does anybody have any other suggestions for representing this concept?

At the moment we are 3rd lvl and my race is aasimar/angel-blooded. All Paizo products allowed.

Thanks in advance.

You do realize the whole AP is about being evil, and doing evil things right? Doing what you are interested in, would be a detriment to the party progression. I don't want to give spoilers, but the character wouldn't last very long in the AP doing what you are suggesting. It is pretty much against the whole plot of the AP. Obviously if the GM wants to work with you on it, that is one thing. But from those of us who have played or run it as intended, what you are asking about isn't something that should/would happen. There are built in "safeguards" to keep the party from imploding (read PvP type play) and eventually your character wouldn't be "protected" and should be killed off by the rest of the party because of the path you'd be taking.

1) Have you talked to your GM about this character concept? If not, I *really* suggest you do. 2) If you have, did your GM give you any warnings about what this would potentially mean (AKA, early death at the hands of the rest of the party or other NPCs)? And are you "okay" with that?

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Trogdar wrote:

The enhancement bonus would be the same as another fighter with one weapon. A manual of dex adds 2 points to your hit chance and the same manual is available to the guy with money to burn because he has a big sword instead of two little ones.

Whatever the outcome here, this money that the two weapon fighter saves in no way makes the two weapon fighter a better fighter, it just makes it so that the money available to one class for utility isn't diverted into the second weapon. It's the same as having a greatsword fighter in every way, they just don't have two years of a nations capital tied into there weapon choice. I don't know why the feat investment isn't enough of a tax on what amounts to flavor.

My apologies, it was late when I was typing. The manual does end up granting +2 to +3 modifier (depending on the stat being even or odd) not +5. Not as drastic as +5 but FAR from being dismissible. While the 2h might be able to get the bonus, the TWF is getting it on two weapons if not more (depending on feat choices etc.)

Feat tax isn't even an appropriate title now that PFRPG increased the number of feats you get versus 3.5, essentially they made it so whatever you wanted to do you had the feats to do it appropriately. Feats give you options, spend them how you like. When you have enough feats to do what you want and do it well, how is it a tax? Those were choices you made to have that option available.

This isn't "just" flavor. This is an ability that is so good it isn't an option to not take it at this and any similar price point. That is a problem mechanically. For it to be a fair option, the price point should be someplace around "this is good but there are other options I might want to spend the money on" and honestly that is probably around +3 if we are going to be conservative about it. Even +2 is pushing "must have" for any TWF type character.

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Changing Man wrote:

So, after some perusal, I've come across various things regarding Legendary levels, items, etc., and what I am wondering is this:

How do these things mesh and/or synergize with the Mythic rules? Are they completely different animals, are they compatible, does it all work out in the end...?

I am a bit on the fence regarding purchases of some of these things, and I'd appreciate input from persons who have experience in these systems. Thanks!

The base theme of PFRPG is generally a high fantasy (lots of magic, readily available magic items, etc.) Mythic kinda boosts it a little more (think the tales of Hercules versus some of the more gritty fantasy tales out there) and is able to be used while leveling 1-20 (and beyond for that matter).

As stated above "epic" refers to levels past the normal 1-20 leveling experience, levels 21+. And often is something that is difficult to quantify in mechanics as each group is so different and the CR system pretty much breaks down completely at that high level of play.

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Our GM has had this issue in our WotW game he offered to run so the normal GM could get some player time in.

We were in the second part of the AP (dealing with the spire out in the wilderness) and basically we were playing the baddies holed up in the spire and the "good guys" were the adventurers coming in to raid the home base so to speak. We were steam rolling the poor guys published in the AP and the DM asked me to help out with and make a group to toss at the 5 of us. Made a zen archer, magus (w/ a level of sorc for the extra damage on Shocking Grasp/elec elemental fireballs) and oradin (archery feats as well) who all had a level of oracle and water sight. Each npc had obscuring mist on their list too.

Called them the Mist Weavers (as every adventuring group needs a name right?) and gave a little background about how they followed up the troubles along the coast until they heard about what was happening at the spire, the various people going/not coming back, talking to the npcs who managed to escape, etc. They threw together what funds they had left after gearing up and hired a druid to cast Control Weather in the area outside the spire to cause natural fog to roll in. The spire has no outside doors amusingly enough so eventually the lower levels filled with fog.

The PCs couldn't see through it and the NPCs would go in after several hours to "explore" the spire pretty much unopposed. The 3 npcs were more than enough to challenge our 5 min/maxed characters given the circumstances. It should have been a party wipe the way it unfolded (the GM didn't play them as well as they probably should have which allowed us to get down 2 of the 3 after a long long fight - we were able to eventually "corner" them one by one).

Moral of the Story: Environment can make a huge difference and often times is not something players plan for as it gets hand waved most of the time. Concealment foils sneak attack damage as well as giving a flat out % to miss making the +20 to hit 8th level characters still miss on occasion. It prevents AoO from movement. My ranged character was pretty much screwed as anything past 5' I couldn't target. We earned our XP/gold that time around. And the best part about it was, it didn't single out any one character in the group to be "countered" so people weren't feeling picked on by the GM.

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