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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber. 2,731 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

By the way, Kingmaker ends at 17th level.

So, whatever I suggest, needs to come full circle by then.

Okay, with current suggestions:

Azata Aasamir(Scion of Humanity)
Str 10/Dex 18/Con 12/Int 13/Wis 8/Cha14
Dawnflower Dervish 4/Standard Bearer Cavalier 1/ Battle Herald 7
1. Enforcer (Blade of mercy & Signature Moves traits)
3. Combat Expertise
5. Butterfly Sting & Outflank
7. Arcane Strike
9. Lunge
11. Discordant Voice?

Then... ?

Is Lunge worth it?

If a Keen weapon is not available, would Improved Critical be better?

Also, is there anything else I missed?

Is butterfly sting really worth it (meaning is enough of the rest of the party going to be in a better position to do more damage)? Dawnflower Dervish 12 (+FCB to inspire courage), will be giving you a +8 morale to hit/damage as a static bonus, toss in a +4 keen courageous weapon, that goes up to a +10 morale bonus. That is 2d6+28 damage on a crit (15+ rolls) before counting in PA, DEX/STR or any other possible additions.

Unless most of the party is using x3 weapons, or has better crit riders (don't forget Enforcer causes you to frighten, causing your opponent to run away, provoking attacks for movement and moving out of position on top of shaken), chances are you should be keeping your crits. You don't get to choose who will hit after you crit, so you might be more reliable.

Lunge is iffy for this character honestly, you can go Sound Striker with DD to get a utility ranged touch attack, you can get a ranged weapon (your Dex is high, grab a bow) and arcane strike it to make it magical if needed.

I'd probably go (if you really don't want to go the moonlight stalker route):

Bard (Dawnflower Dervish/Sound Striker) 12
1: Enforcer (BoM, SM traits)
3: Arcane Strike (if you don't have a magic weapon, else swap with 5th)
5: Lingering Performance (make the most of your rounds)
7: Extra Bardic Performance (fuel ranged attacks if needed or swap with 9th if you are feeling squishy)
9: Combat Expertise (your AC might be lagging at this point OR if you can manage a +4 belt of dex/str, Power Attack, more damage)
11: Improved Crit (if you didn't manage a keen weapon by now, else free feat)

And you have full casting progression. Post 12th level you'll need to get a headband of CHA +2 to maintain spell casting (5th levels spells at 13th, 6th level spells at 16th).

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Tels wrote:

Problem with Battle Herald, it doesn't let you use Inspire Command rounds to fuel Bardic Performance, so the Dawnflower Dervish with have a limited supply of BP rounds. You also lose out on spell casting and favored class bonus.

I think just sticking to Dawnflower Dervish is the best choice.

It can be used to inspire courage however, and that will be the main use of performance as a DD.

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rpewin01 wrote:
Can anyone explain how it would work to go dawnflower dervish into battle herald? Does the inspire courage bonus continue level-for-level? I'm a halfling dawnflower bard about to hit 4th level, and more focused on martial aspects than spells, but not sure if it's worth it.

It usually isn't worth giving up spells unless you have a solid plan for why. If you are just getting a few BAB for the trade... the spells are probably more useful.

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rpewin01 wrote:
Can anyone explain how it would work to go dawnflower dervish into battle herald? Does the inspire courage bonus continue level-for-level? I'm a halfling dawnflower bard about to hit 4th level, and more focused on martial aspects than spells, but not sure if it's worth it.
Battle Herald, Inspiring Command wrote:
All battle heralds may use inspiring command to inspire courage (as the bardic performance ability); bard and battle herald levels stack to determine the bonuses provided by inspire courage.

Battle Herald on d20pfsrd

You'd be able to use the inspiring command to fuel the inspiring courage (I believe personal only due to Battle Dance/DD, modifying the abilities), and would have an equivalent amount of rounds as a full bard with a single level of Cavalier to gain the prereq's, Battle Herald gives 4+CHA mod at first level). There would only be a single level of inspire courage advancement lost due to cavalier in such a case.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Is Moonlight Stalker worth sacrificing Power Attack?

How will he get a reliable source of concealment?

I would say with the Enforcer build, it is potentially worth the loss (or at least delay) of Power Attack. You're getting the bonus damage from Arcane Strike (+1 damage per 5 levels), you're getting a decent filler feat (Blind fighting) as well as a good defensive feat (Combat Expertise) and have a reliable and long lasting source of concealment (Blur and/or Darkness @4th level/4minute duration) until you can afford a minor cloak of displacement (or similar item).

That build nets you a +2 to hit/+4 damage at 9th level when you get it, with potential to buff your AC from that feat (and prereqs) + Arcane Strike. If you took PA, you'd have 2 open feats and the potential for more damage, but to gain it you'd be taking penalties to hit. That means less consistent damage over time (misses removing all damage from a hit, as opposed to hitting more regularly for slightly less). Add +1 to hit and dodge to AC when adjacent to 2 opponents (which makes being able to bump AC even more important - Combat Expertise comes into its own) as well as a situational +4 morale to DEX. Toss in your inspire courage being up to 4 levels higher at 9th level, you're getting an additional +6 morale to hit/damage (+3 at 11th, you'll be getting +4[8] at ChLvl 12).

If all you are worried about is hitting often and hard, I'd drop Imp Initiative and put PA in that feat slot for that build. Or if you know you can get a keen weapon, get rid of Imp Critical and put PA there.

I would consider still keeping the Sound Striker archtype too. Being able to have access to a ranged touch attack and/or AoE which can still debuff with shaken or allow you to bypass DR/Blunt or Piercing could be handy. Think of it as utility ability, you already have another bard who can do the face/suggestion bit so no real loss.

Enforcer doesn't work on things immune to non lethal/intimidate, true. But that just means you're doing straight damage instead of getting "normal" hits + perk. It doesn't hurt you to have it though. You are just that much more effective when it does come into play. If you are going through a typical AP/campaign, it is worth it. If you are running an undead/construct/plant/ooze heavy campaign than no, it isn't. That is kind of implied however. No mention has been made of what they are running so all else being equal the build is worth consideration.

@Goblin stuffs: Getting +8 to all your saves at 12th (+6 favored class bonus to count as 18th level for the +4 inspired courage & doubled by battle dance), would be very nice. But 2 feats to get it is rough and probably not worth it with the enforcer build proposed.

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My guess would be as a bard, you'll have a decent amount of skill points and will have a decent CHA score so while it doesn't have to be an "intimidation focused PC" it can be a useful tool. If you can get your damage to non lethal (Blade of Mercy), it will provide a pretty much always on penalty (every scimitar and weird word attack will do slashing damage which can force free repeated intimidate checks) to saving throws, AC and skill/ability checks.

Cleave is probably just a way to get a second attack at low levels or when you are unable to use a full attack action. With a high DEX, +1 to Dodge and +1 to hit (when adjacent to 2 opponents), and the ability to bump DEX an additional +4 with rage, the penalty to AC for using it is negligible.

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SH527 wrote:

Sorry to be so dense, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right. When you say 1 nature attack do you mean one type of natural attack or just one natural attack. Meaning if I select the claws to be enhanced with my arcane pool does that mean just one claw ( say the left claw) is enhanced for a the duration or both claws are enhanced for the duration because they are the same type of natural weapon.

Same example at higher level with the calikang would the arcane pool enhance just one arm or all six

Thanks again.

A single claw would gain the benefit.

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WotW = Way of the Wicked, 3PP AP. Based on playing "Bad guys/taking control of the world types."

WotR = Wrath of the Righteous, Paizo AP. Based on playing "Good guys/saving the world types."

Your concept wouldn't work at all for the first, the second it would be fine.

If it is WotR, I honestly am not sure I'd want to delay spell casting and synth abilities for 4 levels. I would probably suggest taking at most 2 levels of paladin, get the weapon/armor proficiencies and the CHA to saving throws. Use the smite on an opponent who has an AC that is giving you problems due to your lower BAB or to gain a better AC vs a particularly deadly opponent.

Pally 3 doesn't grant you anything amazing (immunity to fear and your saves are already great) and a mercy which could be taken care of by an inexpensive magical consumable. Pally 4 nets you a spell or two, a second smite (which you could get from a magical item) and a weak channel positive energy (as you'll never be increasing it past that point). Oath lets you swap out channels for smites, BUT a in a few levels the summoner spells and abilities you could have had from the Eidolon will probably outshine the extra smite or two you are getting from it.

If you are dead set on the concept, see if the GM will let you retrain that last level into Summon(Synth). Start saving up for Bracers of the Avenging Knight (d20pfsrd) if you really want that extra smite use. Once you get mythic power, grab the mythic smite so you can get more smites per day if you really feel the need for more. If you are going that far into a casting class and not dipping to get into a PrC for meeting prereqs faster/easier, don't "waste" levels in a class that isn't progressing your main focus. If it weren't for summoner being a CHA based caster I wouldn't even recommend going past paladin 1 for the concept. Getting your casting stat to saves is too good, going past that point isn't worth it however.

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Faskill wrote:

I've got another question, how does the melee transmogrift work early game exactly?

I have difficulties seeing why half elf is a good option for this build (I assume half orc is for the bite attack? )
How could a half elf get 3 attacks at level 4?

As stated in the guide, 1/2 Elf has a floating stat bonus (STR is where you want it), 1/2 orc has a STR bonus. I'm not even sure the guide mentions taking the bite attack as an orc as it would take one of your traits or feats to get. The STR bonus is what you are after with both (or Tiefling if you can get the alternate stat array, again as mentioned in the guide).

Shocking grasp & frostbite for the first 7 levels. Rimed Frostbite for when you will be killing multiple "little" guys as you have multiple uses of it. Shocking grasp for when you want to drop something fast (big hits). When you get Enforcer, Rimed Frostbites will entangle and debuff the opponents.

At 4th level, you can open with Slumber before closing into combat. If it works, at worst it wastes another of the opponents actions to wake them, at best free kill.

At 6th level, Misfortune everything you might want to slumber or that will possibly get a saving throw versus one of you/your ally's follow up attacks. And you can fly.

7th level is when you get the first Monstrous Physique spell. Gargoyle is mentioned. Your BAB allows for 2 attacks with a manufactured weapon and you can use your natural attacks as secondary for 2 more additional attacks (totaling 4 attacks).

Getting 3 attacks at 4th level, would probably be using Alter Self into some humanoid shape that grants 2 claws and a bite. You'd hold your sword in one hand(losing the claw) and you'd be able to use the second claw and bite as secondary attacks.

Or the 2nd build has Hex Magus: Prehensile Hair at 4th, Alter self into a shape that has 2 claw attacks, grow your hair for a 3rd natural attack. 3 attacks at 4th.

Both builds require finding shapes that give you access to multiple natural attacks, basically that is the "trick" to it.

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Kieviel wrote:

Hi Folks,

My group and I recently started a WotW campaign and I thought it would be fun to play a paladin that had been the victim of a botched possession attempt by a shadow demon. Over the course of the campaign the PC would slowly redeem the demon dwelling within. Originally I was planning on going Paladin-Oath of Vengeance 4/ Summoner-Synthesist 16. But I'm beginning to think that this will be an extremely large amount of bookkeeping especially with mythic layered on top.

So. Does anybody have any other suggestions for representing this concept?

At the moment we are 3rd lvl and my race is aasimar/angel-blooded. All Paizo products allowed.

Thanks in advance.

You do realize the whole AP is about being evil, and doing evil things right? Doing what you are interested in, would be a detriment to the party progression. I don't want to give spoilers, but the character wouldn't last very long in the AP doing what you are suggesting. It is pretty much against the whole plot of the AP. Obviously if the GM wants to work with you on it, that is one thing. But from those of us who have played or run it as intended, what you are asking about isn't something that should/would happen. There are built in "safeguards" to keep the party from imploding (read PvP type play) and eventually your character wouldn't be "protected" and should be killed off by the rest of the party because of the path you'd be taking.

1) Have you talked to your GM about this character concept? If not, I *really* suggest you do. 2) If you have, did your GM give you any warnings about what this would potentially mean (AKA, early death at the hands of the rest of the party or other NPCs)? And are you "okay" with that?

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Trogdar wrote:

The enhancement bonus would be the same as another fighter with one weapon. A manual of dex adds 2 points to your hit chance and the same manual is available to the guy with money to burn because he has a big sword instead of two little ones.

Whatever the outcome here, this money that the two weapon fighter saves in no way makes the two weapon fighter a better fighter, it just makes it so that the money available to one class for utility isn't diverted into the second weapon. It's the same as having a greatsword fighter in every way, they just don't have two years of a nations capital tied into there weapon choice. I don't know why the feat investment isn't enough of a tax on what amounts to flavor.

My apologies, it was late when I was typing. The manual does end up granting +2 to +3 modifier (depending on the stat being even or odd) not +5. Not as drastic as +5 but FAR from being dismissible. While the 2h might be able to get the bonus, the TWF is getting it on two weapons if not more (depending on feat choices etc.)

Feat tax isn't even an appropriate title now that PFRPG increased the number of feats you get versus 3.5, essentially they made it so whatever you wanted to do you had the feats to do it appropriately. Feats give you options, spend them how you like. When you have enough feats to do what you want and do it well, how is it a tax? Those were choices you made to have that option available.

This isn't "just" flavor. This is an ability that is so good it isn't an option to not take it at this and any similar price point. That is a problem mechanically. For it to be a fair option, the price point should be someplace around "this is good but there are other options I might want to spend the money on" and honestly that is probably around +3 if we are going to be conservative about it. Even +2 is pushing "must have" for any TWF type character.

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Changing Man wrote:

So, after some perusal, I've come across various things regarding Legendary levels, items, etc., and what I am wondering is this:

How do these things mesh and/or synergize with the Mythic rules? Are they completely different animals, are they compatible, does it all work out in the end...?

I am a bit on the fence regarding purchases of some of these things, and I'd appreciate input from persons who have experience in these systems. Thanks!

The base theme of PFRPG is generally a high fantasy (lots of magic, readily available magic items, etc.) Mythic kinda boosts it a little more (think the tales of Hercules versus some of the more gritty fantasy tales out there) and is able to be used while leveling 1-20 (and beyond for that matter).

As stated above "epic" refers to levels past the normal 1-20 leveling experience, levels 21+. And often is something that is difficult to quantify in mechanics as each group is so different and the CR system pretty much breaks down completely at that high level of play.

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Our GM has had this issue in our WotW game he offered to run so the normal GM could get some player time in.

We were in the second part of the AP (dealing with the spire out in the wilderness) and basically we were playing the baddies holed up in the spire and the "good guys" were the adventurers coming in to raid the home base so to speak. We were steam rolling the poor guys published in the AP and the DM asked me to help out with and make a group to toss at the 5 of us. Made a zen archer, magus (w/ a level of sorc for the extra damage on Shocking Grasp/elec elemental fireballs) and oradin (archery feats as well) who all had a level of oracle and water sight. Each npc had obscuring mist on their list too.

Called them the Mist Weavers (as every adventuring group needs a name right?) and gave a little background about how they followed up the troubles along the coast until they heard about what was happening at the spire, the various people going/not coming back, talking to the npcs who managed to escape, etc. They threw together what funds they had left after gearing up and hired a druid to cast Control Weather in the area outside the spire to cause natural fog to roll in. The spire has no outside doors amusingly enough so eventually the lower levels filled with fog.

The PCs couldn't see through it and the NPCs would go in after several hours to "explore" the spire pretty much unopposed. The 3 npcs were more than enough to challenge our 5 min/maxed characters given the circumstances. It should have been a party wipe the way it unfolded (the GM didn't play them as well as they probably should have which allowed us to get down 2 of the 3 after a long long fight - we were able to eventually "corner" them one by one).

Moral of the Story: Environment can make a huge difference and often times is not something players plan for as it gets hand waved most of the time. Concealment foils sneak attack damage as well as giving a flat out % to miss making the +20 to hit 8th level characters still miss on occasion. It prevents AoO from movement. My ranged character was pretty much screwed as anything past 5' I couldn't target. We earned our XP/gold that time around. And the best part about it was, it didn't single out any one character in the group to be "countered" so people weren't feeling picked on by the GM.

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Trogdar wrote:

I love the idea of having some cash on my two weapon fighters to pursue some utility instead of spending every copper piece trying to keep up (and inevitably failing) with the barb with a greatsword.

Dualistic in no way makes a person deal more damage, it just reduces the cost of a combat style that routinely underperforms.

Everybody loves the idea of having extra cash to do this or that. Everyone would love more money on their characters, this is a certainty.

Given the actual number crunches done with the DPR olympics, it would seem you are choosing to under-perform if you are "inevitably failing to keep up" to the "competition" involved. This is something everyone can do too, make a fail character who doesn't squeeze out their maximum DPR, to prove the character as less than it could be and not be competitive if built differently. Being utilitarian costs something, those are choices made when you make the character. If we don't choose to make the character competitive, you can't really complain that it isn't now can we? We also cannot honestly complain that our characters aren't "keeping up" if we choose to make them more utilitarian, we don't get to have our cake and eat it too.

The TWF'er with the dualistic weapon as a +1 bonus, literally just bought a +5 to hit and more damage with the gold it saved. TWF is a dex based character and if you are making them realistically "competitive" a manual of DEX +5 costs 131k gp. Each attack is now getting +5 to hit (finesse, because it is a dex character right?) and bonus to damage (piranha strike/power attack) fed by the extra "to hit" as well as any rider effects from the weapon (feats or abilities). A +5 to hit also means that the next set of attacks gets bumped up and hits as well. Chances are its DPR will increase quite a bit.

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Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
It was brought up in the Kensai guide thread: Elemental Body DOES allow you to cast spells, and wield weapons, since elementals can take the form of a humanoid, and they can speak.

You're going to have to drop your weapons and pick them up however.

Transmutation (poly) wrote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.

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1) I'm happy to see I'm not the only one with sticker shock with the new items. I honestly was starting to think it was just me being way too conservative... And I'm not known to be the conservative one at our table, so I was thinking I'd started to lose it.

2) With the new stalker archtype, soul hunter, I have a question. Is the intent that stalker be able to juggle the majority of their readied maneuvers (as Wis will be a priority) every round as a swift action? I didn't see any sort of limitations besides claiming a target that the soul hunter has damaged (no time limit) and dropping the claim is a free action. It doesn't mention anything about targeting or duration (so you could possibly claim something you fought earlier in the day) and you can just juggle the claim on the same target you are fighting on your turn. Also, I would almost say it should be an immediate action as you can use it on an AoO too.

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Depends on the weapon it is using to strike you. If it is an unarmed strike, yes. If it is a melee weapon without the "reach" quality yes, aka "without reach" as the ability says. If it was a melee weapon with the "reach" quality, no damage would occur.

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Prince of Knives wrote:
Dualistic is back to +1 because that sets it as being essentially equivalent to what the Soulknife pays for the ability. The ability to pass the weapon around is being addressed, and we very definitely appreciate the catch.

That is a very very bad reason to price it so low, you are looking at it in a vacuum which isn't good design practice. The soulknife's weapon is what the entire class is based around. When all your class abilities revolve around a weapon, you should get a break. It is essentially what you "do" after all. Giving that to every other class, cheapens what the soulknife has going for it, especially when you make it available so cheaply. A simple "+1" isn't what a soulknife "pays" for the ability, lack of feats, spells, and various other class abilities that it DOESN'T get are what the soulknife pays for that benefit. All those things that another class will get and then some, by making this class ability available for an inexpensive item enhancement. A soulknife doesn't get to cherry pick weapon enhancements, it has a list of available choices, there are restrictions. A soulknife doesn't get to add enhancements that cost a flat gold rate, they aren't on the list.

Your reasoning for the price is flawed, the cost of the ability really needs to be higher, you honestly cannot expect a comparison of class levels invested to equal out to a +1 ability. Not to mention the "fragile" drawback is essentially not a drawback (how many DMs actually sunder weapons on PCs regularly?).

The closest prices I can suggest for comparison would be the crystalline focus items and the one legendary weapon that DSP has published that grants the ability to create a mindblade.

D20srd wrote:

Crystal Hilt

Aura faint psychokinesis; ML 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 9th (+3)
Slot weapon; Price 11,200 gp (+1), 44,800 gp (+2), 100,800 gp (+3); Weight 2 lbs.

A crystal hilt looks like a crystalline sword with no blade and comes in light, one-handed, and two-handed varieties. A soulknife, or anyone else with the ability to manifest a mind blade, channels their mind blade through the crystal hilt when summoning it. This does not otherwise alter the action needed to summon a mind blade, the summoner must simply be wielding the crystal hilt and choose to manifest the mind blade through the hilt.

Crystal hilts have 45 hit points and a hardness of 15.

When a mind blade is manifested in this fashion, the enhancement bonus and the maximum enhancement bonus of the mind blade is increased by the enhancement bonus of the crystal hilt, although any enhancement bonus above +5 is lost.

Characters wielding two mind blades only gain the benefit on the mind blade channeled through the crystal hilt. Multiple crystal hilts would be needed to affect multiple mind blades.

Throwing a mind blade while wielding a crystal hilt does not require the crystal hilt be thrown. If forming your mind blade into two blades, only one is altered by the crystal hilt unless you are wielding two crystal hilts.

Crystal hilts may only be made with a +1, +2, or +3 enhancement bonus.

Just adding a +1 to a single weapon is priced at 11k, up to +3 being 100k. You're granting another whole weapon mimicking the first weapon for what? 42k at the most?

I would suggest asking Jeremy what they did for the "formula" for those and see what he says about pricing the soulknife ability as a weapon enhancement. I know he is busy with Ult Psi and all (I contributed to the DSP kickstarter and he sends out updates religiously), but it can't hurt to have some feedback from a person who consistently puts out quality material.

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GhanjRho wrote:
Why is dualistic back to being a +1 equivalent?

Because it is still ridiculously cheap for what it does.

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insaneogeddon wrote:

A cat person walks up to you and you don't think they have claws?

Maybe if your a bubble boy with 3 int and wis. Really if you cannot pull hidden weapons when you have improved unarmed strike its unfair to let it slide if your a cat person.

Not all catfolk have the racial trait to gain claws that are capable of doing damage. It is an alternate trait, which means only a portion (big or small as it may be) of the population has it. This is most definitely someplace where the knowledge check would come up and is appropriate.

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I would second the Magus option, but I'm also a fan of the druid. If you are looking for something "different" the debuffer type white haired hexcrafter magus might be fun (search "The defiler" in this guide Magus Hexcrafter Guide: The Complete Guide For Dealing With The Devil ). Reason being you aren't necessarily the "nuked it to death in one hit" damage dealer, you actually are more of a control type character. You get into melee to start a grapple and inflict all sorts of penalties on the opponent (which helps the rest of the group).

Edit: Actually if you guys/gals are playing Ebberon, look at d20pfsrd for Dreamscarred Press' psionic classes. A Soulkife or Aegis might be just up your alley if you are looking for something different (psion/wilder would probably be too close to an arcane caster than you want to play). Neither class makes extensive use of psionic powers so you wouldn't have to worry about a new rule set, the classes are fairly self contained.

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swoosh wrote:

I'm slightly confused: The posts keep saying Mysterious Stranger is terrible because it doesn't get gun training.

However every instance of the Archetype's description I read only says it replaces gun training *I*. Other archetypes that replace feature progressions explicitly state that they replace the entire line of features or refer to the feature in a blanket capacity. Stranger's Fortune on the other hand specifically lists only one instance of the feature.

So shouldn't Strangers still get +Dex to damage only at level 9 instead of 5?

It still is terrible in that context. You spend 4 more levels doing rather dismal damage until you finally get +Dex to damage at 9th. Which happens to either be almost end game in PFS (characters retire a 12 until just recently I believe) or 1/2 your adventuring career if you are going a full 20th level game.

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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Actually I just re-read Close Range and it only works on Ray spells. So disregard all of the above, I guess.
That kinda sucks. I guess I overlooked the word "Ray" there, when all of the subsequent text reads ranged touch spells.
I'm fairly certain [i]snowball[i/i] counts as a ray.

You would be incorrect, it doesn't state "Ray" in the spell write up for effect.


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Scavion wrote:
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype so you'll have more Smites per day.

The two levels of paladin don't qualify for the posted character, taking the extra levels vs PrC or oracle means lower CL/loss of caster levels on a 20th level build, so not likely to be worth it.

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The price I posted is correct, though my explanation might not have been as clear as it could be (when having two abilities only, the second most expensive is the least expensive). Was just tossing out that you had the custom item as from my experience on the boards, there seem to be quite a few restrictive GMs. I know I don't really care about them (and neither does our normal GM), but Corerue's might ;)

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One when cherry picking spells, chances are very very very underpriced. Reason being they usually give several bonuses (hunters howl being a prime example). In such a case you should price according to the cumulative bonuses from the spell (essentially +2 enhancement as well as all the skill bonuses, that is a more accurate price in such cases). Also I believe that an item should have a constant caster level, not multiple CLs.

Favored enemy is only applicable to rangers, so it shouldn't get a discount as it isn't drawback or restriction. It should be priced according to how much of a bonus it gives (a flat amount of enhancement plus skill bonuses as well). Same thing with terrain bond (for pricing restrictions by class).

Multiple similar abilities are typically things like staves or something like the headbands or belts that supply multiple enhancements to different stats.

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williamoak wrote:

2) The character does NOT have full wealth according to WBL. You might have to shift a few things around (also, I put the wrong weapon, it should not have a +5 courageous holy nodachi at level 13, mwk will do when combined with the spell "greater magic weapon").

You are actually significantly under WBL, was looking at using the character as a BBEG type and two things stood out (beyond the +5 and enhancements). 1) Your headband can't be +6/+2, the stats are the same when doing a headband of mental prowess. 2) Your build assumes a custom magic item for the bracers which ends up costing just under 33k (full price of most expensive, plus 1.5 times the price of the second most expensive function). With those and 1 nodachi each of adamantine, cold iron and mithril your total comes up just over 98k gp (of 185k for a PC). I'd suggest a efficient quiver to carry the weapons around just for quality of life purposes which pushes you to just under 100k as described.

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MarcFrey wrote:
Bill Lumberg wrote:

Has anyone here looked at the new arcana from Blood of the Moon? They are posted on

Here is one that I am curious to hear opinions on.

Spell-Scars (Ex)

Benefit: The magus can use special scar-based tattoos called spell-scars on his skin to cast or prepare spells, much like scrolls. He can cast a spell from a spell-scar exactly like casting from a scroll; the ink and scars vanish when the spell is cast. The magus can also prepare spells from his spell-scars without expending them, similar to a wizard using the Spell Mastery feat.

The magus does not need to be able to see his spell-scar to use it. A magus has room on his skin for 18 total spell levels of spell-scars, which he can create using the rules for scribing scrolls (although they do not require the Scribe Scroll feat).

It appears to be a useful option, much like having scrolls readily available but without needing the Scribe Scroll feat. I think I would take this over Arcane Accuracy as a third level arcana. Arcane Accuracy strikes me as an expensive for a one-round bonus.

However, if other have contradictory views, I would love to hear them.

Just wanting to bring this back up... First up I think this is an amazing way to acquire additional spells at low level while playing the Kensai archetype.

While this can become pretty cost heavy...
25gp per lower level 1 spells can be an easy access to True Strike cast or Shield without having to worry about wasting your level 1 spells slots that you're using for Shocking grasps.

So then... my question is... Is casting using the scars compatible with Spell Strike / Spell combat?

No, unless there is an arcana that allows you to cast spells via scroll like the wand arcana does.

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williamoak wrote:

Ok, so I've FINALLY finished the level 13 build. I MIGHT put the mythic one, bu the numbers are so obscene that I'm not tempted. This creature could SOLO CTHULU. No trouble. It makes all the saves as long as it doesnt crit-fail, and the same for most hits. It's own "glorious aura" has a 50/50 chance of affecting it. It's just SILLY. And all that is without considering short term buffs (like divine power... which could easily be quickened). Anyway, here's the more sane one:

Daenal, High Oradin Of Arshea

I really wish there was a way for it to learn "heroism" though. Sigh.

Where is the character getting the +5 Courageous Holy Adamantine nodachi from in the Melee attack line up? (I'm guessing a missed edit from your 20th level build, as there is no Divine Bond in this version?) And on the equipment line it has "mwk nodachi (celestial mithral, adamantine, cold iron)," the character is carrying one of each?

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master_marshmallow wrote:
Ranax wrote:

Would you mind terribly linking to it?

I'd like to see the reasoning so I can decide to get behind it or not.

Here it is.

Was there an FAQ or errata link or something I missed in there while I was skimming over it? I pretty much just see two camps saying "yes you can" and "no you can't" back and forth, you being one of the more vocal saying "yes you can" regarding the issue.

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Davick wrote:

I found this:

"Instantaneous Effects: Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target."

It's somewhat informative.

Poisons and weapon damage aren't spells. That quote is from the spell stacking section IIRC?

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I like your take on the slime better, but I ran into this as well when I was looking at the above item enhancements.


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I want to preface this with "I honestly have no problem with mundane classes/martial classes getting nice things" because it may not sound that way when I'm done.

1) The slime is still woefully underpriced for what it does. It is essentially an auto pinned condition vs flying with a scaling DC. You have it limiting jumps past 10' which means you are even influencing the acrobatic skill on top of removing the fly skill from the board.

This is hands down better than the majority of items that would do the same thing (wands, wonderous items that refer to "Flightbreaker" or whatever name you end up using).

To put it in perspective, a wand of Flightbreaker (3rd level spell IIRC) would cost 11,250 gp (half to craft) and only ever have a DC of 14 (10 base + 3 spell level +1 minimum Int mod to cast 3rd level spells). And it would last 5 rounds (assuming spell duration of rounds/level).

A wonderous item of Flightbreaker (Command word, 2xday) would cost 10,800 gp (half to craft). Breakdown being, ([3rd level spell x 5th level caster x 1,800gp]/[5/ 2 uses a day]). The item would still only ever have a DC of 14 and would last 5 rounds (assuming that the spell is rounds/level).

Compare either of those to the slime at 2nd level for 500 gp. It is significantly underpriced using the guidelines for magic items (which I'm not saying is exactly what it should cost, but it gives us a ballpark for what to expect). On top of getting significantly better as you level, because the item DC is scaling up every 2 levels when all other items are static.

I think you are applying the maneuver type DC to magic items which in my opinion shouldn't be done. That isn't what the rule set expects for magic items in the game. What you are stating up isn't a magic item, you are stating up a permanent spell like ability essentially (scaling DC, uses per day). And spell like abilities aren't something the game really allows to be bought and sold, they are usually gained through levels of a class or a template. You are opening the door to cherry picking spells which would be really good when the DCs are actually higher (but don't get used much because the cost to get the DC that high is prohibitive using the existing item creation rules) and putting them into item form, really really cheap item form.

I think because you are working on the PoW rules you have the constant maneuver DCs as your base line, and that is causing a disconnect with your item. If you are going to make a magic item, follow those conventions for the rule set. If you are trying to make an item that uses the maneuver rules, go ahead and use it BUT you need to sit down and seriously think about what it should cost to have an item that gives you access to maneuvers and what that does to the game (IE caster types gaining access to them through items that they can craft on the cheap). The old 3.5 convention was a feat in item form was roughly 10,000 gp.

2)Multiplicative Bracers are again really really really really (I'd type more but I think you get the idea) cheap. "Oh look, I bought this 2,000 gp item and now ALL 20 of my daggers are +5 keen returning XYZ'ing daggers." I get what you are trying to do, liberate people from the golf bag of items for certain builds who are unduly oppressed by the WBL. But look at what else you are doing. Archery/ranged combat is sometimes considered too good partly because they can sink money into the main weapon, and buy differing ammunition as needed for utility. If you are trying to remove the rather small cost of utility ammunition from the game (all you need is 1 of each type you could possibly need), this does it. The first two times you fire a +5 arrow, this item just paid for itself. Entirely too good for the price.

Things to compare that already exist:
Endless Ammunition
Abundant Ammunition

3)Twinned. A +1 enhancement that gives me up to a +9 weapon for free forever? SOLD! Entirely too good for the price.

Things to compare to:
Dagger of Doubling
3.5 had a Splitting property for ranged weapons that was considered underpriced at +3 (not necessarily a direct comparison but something to look into).

4)Wraithslayer Dust. As a burst effect, it should probably have a save. If it only influenced one weapon I could almost (...almost) see it at the price you have listed and even then my instincts are saying it's on the cheap side. As an area of effect that makes any and all targets in the area take the effect... So everyone else in your party can hit it without investing anything at all... With no save... Entirely too good for the price.

Incorporeal creatures can be nasty, but without that ability, they are usually pretty much push overs. 100 gp to negate an entire encounter? Sign me up. People talk about Save or Die, or Save or Suck spells. This is an item that doesn't even allow a save, it just makes things suck for the targeted creature(s).

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I'm not sure that you get to "stack" the penalties from one into another. If you make a successful attack, you spend two uses of the Touch of Corruption so both the poisoned greatsword and the cruelty go through. Those three would go "off" at the same time, weapon damage, poison (save) and touch of corruption (save). Then as you have met the requirements for the feat (damage being dealt with power attack), you can make an intimidate check (with possible modifiers from the weapon damage result).

At best, there is an "attack resolution phase" and a "damage phase" to deal with. I've not seen an example where damage is split up and one type of damage cascades into the next in a favorable manner like you are asking about. The attack happens, damage is applied and after that point penalties are taken into account.

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Komoda wrote:
Doesn't flurry exclude natural attacks?

FCT=Feral Combat Training.

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@Extra question: nothing says you cannot, in a core rule book game no PC has a natural attack innately to gain the feat. Obviously the game has expanded since then so RAW as long as you can fulfill the requirements you can take the feat. In the end it is up to the GM as always though.

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Deliverance wrote:

The thing is, in the case of a character attacking with his only natural weapon, his "Full Strength Bonus" is 1.5x Strength. The only caveat in the flurry rules, speaks about wielding something in two hands, which a bite certainly isnt.

The general rule is that a single natural attack does that 1.5x str damage and you cannot use natural weapons in a flurry, once you start using FCT and flurry, specific rules trump the general rules. You can use the bite in a flurry and attacks made in a flurry deal str mod in damage.

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It is non lethal damage which makes a difference. The fatigue isn't really that bad, -1 to hit/damage/AC for the most part (essentially roughly what Bless does) and how often does someone you've engaged in melee combat with charge away?

The Rime spell is a little useful but as it only lasts 1 round (duration is based on the level of the spell it is attached to), not particularly great as you have to reapply it every round with another successful attack.

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Gator the Unread wrote:

Here is the d20RFSRD link to natural attacks. In the right most column is lists whether the attack is 'Primary' or 'Secondary'. Its pretty much exactly how its listed in the Bestiary book, page 301 to 302.

To sum it up, (in a full attack) if you have 3 attacks that are primary attacks, you get all three at the full attack bonus, and full strength modifier. If an attack is listed and a secondary attack, you get those in conjunction with any primary natural attacks, but htey suffer a -5 attack penalty, and only get 1/2 your strength modifier. If you only have one, primary, natural attack, you get your full attack bonus and 1.5 strength modifier (as if it were a two-handed weapon).

If you are using a manufactured weapon, you give up that limb's (or tentacle's) natural attack in favor of gaining the weapons attacks (including extra attacks based on a high BAB), but all of your natural attacks become secondary (-5 to hit, 1/2 strength modifier).

Please note that a creature can have only secondary attacks (such as most normal horses), suffering a -5 to attack and 1/2 strength to damage, even though they don't have a primary attack.

The general rule is that they are primary attacks. If an ability states they are secondary the specific rule (that is granting the ability) trumps the general rule. Remember, PFRPG is an exception based rule set.

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KahnyaGnorc wrote:
If you can take any form, just limited by size category, then you could take the form of something with a tail. Then, I don't see why your "Slam" can't be a tail, but to use it in conjunction with Claws of the Beast and Bit of the Wolf to get 4 attacks per round at low levels is definitely up for GM (dis)approval.

I don't believe the ability is allowing you to change form like polymorph. It is more restricted with options from a table that you can choose from. One of those options is gaining an natural attack to add to your humanoid "chassis" (typically something you don't already have or you wouldn't be picking it).

Normally polymorph would give you the natural attacks of the form you are taking. The ability in question isn't doing that, it is more limited.

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Damian Vryce Kil'Cannon wrote:
He is taking vicious stomp and wants to know if his AoO from that can have two unarmed strikes one from his main foot and another off hand foot or elbow or knee etc

AoO's can be made using any weapon/attack that is capable of threatening the opponent unless otherwise noted in an ability. Because of the enhancement bonus adding to CMB as well as attack rolls, most people just use the weapon for both (the best chance of success is using the shiny enhanced weapon). Using your unarmed strike is valid, but will typically be less effective unless using an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Magic Fang spell (to get the bonuses the weapon would have).

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It'll be deadly if the npcs are even remotely optimized. Normally action economy is on the PCs side, they have more actions to deal with whatever damage or status effects are coming in from the opponent, and typically the actions are staggered (IE the little mooks are hitting for a little damage in between the big damage the BBEG does so you are only actually really worried about that action segment). You have "room" to plan accordingly. Seeing as each NPC is on equal footing with what a PC does, each action the NPCs take could be a game changer in the fight, that magus who just crit with shocking grasp? Just dropped the tankish player in one hit. The caster with heighten spell? Just immobilized the entire party with web and next round the fireball will take half of them out of the fight.

You have to be very very careful when doing a full party as an enemy. Combat will be deadlier, you as a GM need to know the party (will they run if things get bad or die fighting to the end?) and will have to plan contingencies if things get out of control (string of bad rolls on the PCs end, lucky rolls on the NPCs side, etc.) Single monsters/BBEG are more consistent, reliable. They are easier to tweak as needed, give them full hp if the party has significant damage dealers, a few consumable magic items if the party is full of casters, easy fixes.

If I were running it, I would probably introduce each NPC as the game progresses. Maybe the druid was watching or prompted that night attack by the bears in the area. When the fight is over, the PCs see them leave the area. Later the PCs see a figure in the shadows take off after they were ambushed in the city. That way the PCs know someone is watching, they can use their resources to try and figure out who they are (some role playing hooks) and hopefully get some idea of what the other party's abilities are so they aren't completely blindsided when the NPC party encounter happens.

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Flurry will limit which weapons the character can use while two weapon fighting.

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Animate Dead gives a precedent for "No."

Animate Dead wrote:

This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.

The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.

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I believe they've mentioned they will be putting in a sidebar for further defining "encounter" durations (on the DSP forums if I remember correctly).

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By all means do so, but go through the Ultimate Equipment guide and try to find items that scale to the users HD. You aren't going to find many (if any at all). Part of the reason is, when crafting a magic item you are setting the DC off the spells level (and the minimum attribute needed to cast that spell), crafting guidelines are based off that for price points. Past lower levels, no one would ever buy a wand of this spell when they could buy a handful of single use items which will be significantly more effective when needed. And unlike other items made using the established crafting guidelines, these stay relevent as long as you have them (because their DC goes up as you get higher level/stats). Even alchemical items have set DCs as a rule.

Essentially you are handing out one use SLAs, not magic items. That is tripping my "alarms" from a design perspective. Couple that with PoW being under scrutiny by virtue of what it is, I'd rather you know the precendent you're setting and be aware that this is probably one of the things people would point out saying it is "OP" or "power creep" and challenge the integrity of the project as a whole with.

With all that being said, I've always loved DSP as a company and have been buying their stuff since I've run into it way back when, and encourage others to do so. I'm happy they are doing PoW and know you guys will have my support (and more importantly my money). I'm happy they are doing the incarna too for that matter.

Basically, I know you all have your hands full and there is a fine line between doing something "new" or "different" and crossing the line into "breaking" the rules. Just wanted to throw that warning flag out there for you.

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Prince of Knives wrote:

A teaser from the items section:

Endeca’s Gregarious Gravity Slime (Wondrous Item)

Aura: Weak transmutation; CL 5th

Slot: N/A; Price: 750 GP (one container may contain up to three slimes)

This small, light-blue slime is usually kept in a bottle or bucket with an easy-to-open lid, and quivers and coos pleasantly whenever it is touched or fed (it does not seem to require food to survive, though it does enjoy it). Though the Gregarious Gravity Slime sees some popularity as a hard-to-kill pet for the children of the rich, its primary purpose is for combat. The slime may be applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a swift action; the next time that weapon strikes a creature, that creature must succeed at a Fortitude save against DC (10 + ½ the user’s level + the user’s Strength modifier) or lose all ability to fly as the clinging slime drags them to the ground. Victims lose all ability to fly; they have no flight speed, are treated as having no ranks in the Fly skill, and cannot hover, leap or levitate any higher than ten feet from the ground. If the victim so affected is already flying when they are affected the slime cushions their fall and they suffer no damage. The effects of Endeca’s Gregarious Gravity Slime last until the end of the encounter, at which point the slime dissolves with a contented sigh.

Creation Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; 375 GP, Flightbreaker

Flightbreaker (Transmutation)
Level: Alchemist 3, Inquisitor 3, Magus 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Summoner 3, Witch 3
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Components: V, S, F (a small stone)
Range: Long (400 feet + 40 feet/level)
Target: 1 creature
Duration: 1 Min./Level
Saving Throw: Fort negates; Spell Resistance: Yes

The victim of this spell is subject to a powerful personal gravitational effect. If the subject fails her saving throw, she is rendered incapable of flying for the duration; she loses any and all fly speeds...

1) I have no issue with the spell but the item should be reworked. Wonderous items typically have a set DC, not scaling. About the only magical item that doesn't have a to have a set DC are staves (though I think there is a class ability that allows you to do something similar with wands). Basically you are breaking one of the balancing factors of magical items, you pay for better DCs. I would be *very* wary of doing so.

2) My character would never use this item in combat, it is too cute lol.

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In 3.5 the general "guideline" was an item that granted a feat was roughly 10,000 gp. Obviously, some feats are better than others so prices still varied.

Granting class abilities, isn't something that items should do, it invalidates classes as a whole. I don't believe there is a precedent but I don't have my UE book to go through and check (though there may be an artifact that grants spell use as XYZ, but don't quote me on that). The closest you see semi-regularly is items that add levels to class abilities you'd have (Monks Robes, etc.)

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gnomersy wrote:
Specific trumps general. Generally you die when in the negatives troll does not unless regeneration is stopped. Specific - regeneration does not heal damage caused by lack of oxygen food etc. not healing means he doesn't heal it doesn't cause him to die. Essentially he'd be in a permanent state of unconsciousness(some might say hibernation) until exposed to what he requires to recover be it air food or water. Sort of like Anthrax actually.

No the ability specifically states damage done would not be healed. Even if exposed to air, the damage wouldn't be healed, it persists. Same if the *very* helpless creature was somehow fed, the damage doesn't get healed.

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I second the Green Ronin skill based psychic class even if it was 3.5 (it was easy enough to convert over), it was based on the abilities doing non lethal damage when you used them. It was found in both the Advanced Players Handbook and the Psychic Handbook (I believe?).

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