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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 1,065 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Man I was there all 4 days and totally missed this!

Ugh. There's always next year.


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I subscribe to both the RPG line and the AP line so I get the hardcopies and the PDF's.

The PDF's get waaaaaaaay more use than the hardcopies.

I bring my ipad pretty much with me everywhere. My Pathfinder books are on my iPad so pretty easy access to everything I need.

When I'm running an adventure and I need quick access to certain monsters / adversaries? I print out the page from the respective Bestiary and if I need to make changes to it I can do so on the page without worrying about marking up the book.

Need to know what spells and special abilities do? Search copy and paste in to a text document.

Maps? Extract. Print. Markup.

The occasional Battle Map? Extract. PosterRazor. Print. Assemble.

PC's need to know that a monster/NPC looks like? Extract. Paste into Pixelmator or Photoshop. Add name. Print.

or

if on the ipad. SHOW the Players the picture right from the book.

And I dont have to carry around a crap load of books to do this. IF I prep before hand it speeds up play. My players have learned to prep and have enverythign that they need on hand BEFORE play starts. It's very seldom that we need to stop the game in it's tracks.

There were a few sessions that I didnt even bring the Core Rulebook with me to my game between the PDF's and the two PFSRD apps that I use? there's no need.

I like the hardcopies but the PDF's are actually more useful.


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Freehold DM wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
jemstone wrote:

Oh man.

L-Gaim.

Now there was a SHOW.

Had a chance to get THIS when it first came out. Passed on it figuring that I'd be able to track one down later.

*FACEPALM*

when I build a time machine, I will travel back in time to this moment and rectify it for you.

Primarily by buying it myself.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.


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I think he means THIS.


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jemstone wrote:

Oh man.

L-Gaim.

Now there was a SHOW.

Had a chance to get THIS when it first came out. Passed on it figuring that I'd be able to track one down later.

*FACEPALM*


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Jeven wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

People are apparently still buying the rules stuff so why wouldn't Paizo keep making the rules stuff?

Since not everyone buys everything there is to buy, it probably comes down to the decisions of those customers who make choices on a product by product basis.

How many Pathfinder rulebooks are there now? And how would a new customer rank them -- are the new releases as highly regarded (must-haves) as some of the older ones?
So something like the APG might remain a dependable seller while some of the newer ones might be borderline because they are much further down on people's things-I-might-buy-lists.

Maybe I should have been more specific? I was reffering to the purchase of new rule based books from the RPG line.

For Example: If sales from the ACG is doing gangbusters, what impetus does Paizo have to stop making new rule books since people are still buying them in droves?

As for rule books in existence? I believe that there are 15. But I'm going to exclude the 4 Bestiaries, the NPC codex, Ultimate Equipment and the Gamemastery Guide. To me these are very different books than the Advanced Series or the other Ultimate books.Still even if you included all 15 that's 15 books in 5 years? That's roughly 3 a year? Which in itself isnt bad considering the rate that WOTC were churning out the 3x hardcovers.


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thejeff wrote:

In fairness, there is also a perception that rules bloat is bad for the game in general and can lead to problems for the company. Whether that's true or not is debatable and largely irrelevant: People can be concerned about even if it's wrong and that's a different concern than "Stop making stuff I don't want"

That's a valid point and I get that but here's the thing: The moment people stop buying the rules stuff is the moment I'm pretty sure it would go away (or change i.e. a new edition).

People are apparently still buying the rules stuff so why wouldn't Paizo keep making the rules stuff?


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Orthos wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
But I'd never presume that since I dont like them they need to go. Seriously? WHO DOES THAT?
I believe it's so prevalent in TTRPG fandoms because the work staff in the companies that service that fandom tend to be so small, limited in time, and/or busy with projects. The mindset tends to be "If this thing I don't like doesn't exist, that frees up all the people who would otherwise be working on it to come over here instead and work on this thing I DO like".

Yeah I can definitely see that as being true in most cases. But in this case there is already a separate campaign setting line (EDIT: D'oh! you've already pointed this out in your post) and Paizo's staff isnt really considered small in the scope of RPG companies. In fact it might be bigger than D&D's right now.

So while normally I'd agree with that particular reasoning I dont think that's the case here.


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Kthulhu wrote:
A few, yeah, but any action (or inaction) always loses a few. Pathfinder is already at the blended classes and randomly assembled optional rules phase, you have to wonder how much more mileage they can squeeze out of the system.

I think that it's very easy for people to say "We'll lose only a few but I'll get what I want so who cares" when theyre not the ones who will have to let employees go should that gambit fail.

I think Lisa and Vic know what they're doing. I think there's a solid reason for the product schedule to be what it is and the way it is. What I'll quite frankly NEVER understand, especially from gamers, is the fact that if you don't like something you don't have to buy it or support it. Instead you'd rather remove it from play in order to deprive those who DO like that content and then shrug and say "meh" who needed them anyway.

Look at those tags under my messageboard alias. I subscribe to those two lines. Those are the ones that I care about. I've been a subscriber since the beginning so that's 5 years or so now. The other lines I dont really care about so I dont subscribe or purchase from them. But I'd never presume that since I dont like them they need to go. Seriously? WHO DOES THAT?


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Khelreddin wrote:

.By way of anecdotal support for this idea, this article doesn't really track popularity over time, but it does make the point that TTRPGs are "increasingly becoming a mainstream activity" and says that Stephen Colbert was a big D&D player, and once even issued an on-air shout-out to “any half-elf thieves who are joining us tonight.” Again, purely anecdotal, but that would never have happened in the 80's or 90's.

I'd argue that if media was as prevalent and expansive as it was today back then you WOULD see someone giving a shout out to D&D on screen.

In fact didnt TSR balk at allowing Spielberg to use actual D&D stuff on screen in E.T.? Which is why the game the Mike and his friends are playing at the kitchen table early on in the film is very D&D like without anyone ever calling it out specifically as D&D?

Also D&D had a Saturday morning cartoon. It had ads in both Marvel and DC comics. Even if you were NOT an RPG geek you at least had some exposure to it. Now? Not so much. The TTRPG Community is very insular.
I was a black kid from Bushwick Brookyln in the 80's and even I knew what D&D was because the ads in my favorite comicbooks.


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Haladir wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Haladir wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.

Um, no.

I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.

That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. When I mention RPG's the response I'm more likely to get is closer to "Oh I like final Fantasy / Fallout / Skyrim" When I correct and say TTRPG's I usually get "Oh you mean like D&D? People still play that?"

Here's the thing: Most people today know that an "RPG" is some kind of game. Back in the '80s or '90s, you'd just get a blank stare.

Unless you were talking to someone who was ex-military, who would think "rocket-propelled grenade" and be even more confused!

Today, you have a mix of younger people who know video games, and old-timers who have been playing TTRPGs for decades.

I mean, look at the attendance of GenCon. The ony time I've gone was for GenCon 20 in 1987. The attendance was about 5,000. GenGon Indy 2014 had more than ten times that.

GENCON is a poor example though. It's not just TTRPG's. I'd argue that it's geek culture in general as there's just as many Boardgamers and Wargamers there as TTRPG's. Even if that number was still all TTRPG's it's STILL a niche hobby with those numbers. Barely worth a notice outside of the hobby.


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Freehold DM wrote:


Giant robot music is also a staple of my ear's diet. Dangaio's opening theme and overall theme music is perfect. PERFECT.

Hajatasei Dangaio! Holy Crap that's a blast from the past.

Freehold DM wrote:
I love true Gundam. But I have to say aside from the opening to Zeta Gundam, the music is lacking.

Which opening? I like both of them but the second is my favorite of the two. Man, that was my golden age of mecha anime right there. Between Zeta Gundam, Heavy Metal L-Gaim and Aura Battler Dunbine? Good times, GOOD TIMES.


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Arnwyn wrote:

I'm going to be sticking with themes, because music overall is just too much. (I'll arbitrarily choose 10, but I can't possibly number them...!)

- Inner Universe (GITS:SAC)
- Seventh Moon (Macross 7)
- Tank! (Cowboy Bebop)
- Yakusoku Wa Iranai (Escaflowne)
- Kiri (Ergo Proxy)
- Sea of Miracles (Lodoss)
- I'm a Pioneer (Tenchi Muyo)
- Cruel Angel's Thesis (Evangelion)
- Full of Memories (Ranma)
- Mad Machine (BGC)

Freehold DM wrote:
*Lynn Kaifun* that claims FIRE BOMBER!! is a rip off of their original music. If you know who that is, I'll give you a million internets.

You mean Minmay's cousin/erstwhile manager? Where's the hard question (unless I missed it)? ;) (Reading the liner notes in the various CDs are great fun, especially the Galaxy Network Charts.)

That's some good stuff there. Although if I'm being honest I still love Mad Machine to this very day and Bubble Gum Crisis had some pretty damn good music.

I have Angry Priss on my iPhone as part of my "need to get ready for action" music playlist. That along with Strong and Strike from Naruto and Blood War from Bastard! are some of my favorites.

I also cant NOT mention Giant Robo: The Day The Earth Stood Still Soundtrack in particular The main Title and Rush! Issei & Yohshi.


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Haladir wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.

Um, no.

I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.

That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. When I mention RPG's the response I'm more likely to get is closer to "Oh I like final Fantasy / Fallout / Skyrim" When I correct and say TTRPG's I usually get "Oh you mean like D&D? People still play that?"


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Billy the Goat has filed harrassment charges against GoatToucher.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Cosplaying? I heard he had a sword, but I don't know anything about Cosplaying. What was he wearing?

Apparently he was dressed as Mugen from SAMURAI CHAMPLOO.


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bugleyman wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Wow. I still have my copy of the BBB! My binding is fine and I used the HELL out of it. To be fair though this is my third one as I gave my older copies away to friends when they got hooked on the game.
It really seems that game books are very hit and miss. The binding 1E UE is generally considered to be terrible, but I never had a problem with mine.

EXACTLY! Up until about 6 years ago I still had my original copy of UA from (85-86?) and it was beat to hell from use but the spine was still intact. Granted a few of people I knew who got theirs around the same time and later had theirs fall apart.


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bugleyman wrote:
Edit: I did have my copy of Champions 4E (the Big Blue Book) rebound when the binding gave out...I've been paranoid about the binding of large hardbacks ever since.

Wow. I still have my copy of the BBB! My binding is fine and I used the HELL out of it. To be fair though this is my third one as I gave my older copies away to friends when they got hooked on the game.


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Cops Shoot Cosplayer in the back


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The other thing that I dont understand is this: I've been playing and running RPG's for almost 30 years now and when I'm introducing newer players to a game I NEVER unleash the full chargen rules on them. EVER. I dont care how simple the game proclaims to be. The goal is to get them to the PLAY point. To learn the game in PLAY. In play is pretty much where you can teach the core concepts about the game because, I find, that you have a much better context for most everything in play.

If your players are a little more experienced and it takes them 2 hours to make a character is it due to them not understanding how a character is made? Or is it them pouring over the options? Because if it's them pouring over the options then that's going to be par for the course for ANYTHING with a metric buttload of options. And criticizing the game for having so many options available usually means that you should be either limiting options at the outset yourself as GM or perhaps playing a game with fewer options.

Citing the game for player indecision (which is not a BAD thing)is also not really fair either. If a player decides that they want to start making one type of PC and then midway through it decides that they might be better off with another type thats not the game's fault. If a player even takes more time than usual (what is usual anyway?) even deciding where his/her stats are going to go is that the game's fault too? There's alot that goes into character generation but it doesnt have to be this obessive thing where it takes 2 hours to build a PC. If you know exactly what you want and are not trying to build the perfect PC a reasonable person can do it in less.

and as a GM I do leave leeway for my players especially at the beginning of a campaign to make changes to their PC's later on in the game. That's part of open communication between the GM and the players.

I recently had to build a character (a Paladin) for my first game in YEARS. I havent played a paladin in YEARS. Not since 2nd Edition actually. But I had a rough idea of what I wanted and it was a 1st level character and it took me around 30 min to build him. I'm not saying that makes me special but I didnt agonize over every option (and I have all of the books and HERO LAB). I just built the character. If I was going to agonize over every option that goes to a certain mindset then yes it would have taken me longer. But again goes back to the point of the amount of options and whether "I" as a person and player feel compelled to have to use them or not.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Simon-- what other games have you played besides PF and 5th edition?

I think that if you have never played other, much more time consuming character creation style games your perception may be warped.

I have played:

D&D 1e
AD&D
AD&D 2e
D&D 3.0
D&D 3.5
GURPS
Mage: The Ascension
World of Darkness
Shadowrun
Call of Cthulhu
Anima
Dungeon World
Rolemaster

Nathanael Love wrote:
Even with ever book published now, PF is still one of the SIMPLEST games for character creation compared to many.
Great, so that means I should be so happy that Pathfinder only has thousands of available options that I shouldn't want to play something with a lighter rule set?

My question and I'm not sure if it's been already answered or not so forgive me, is this: If the complicated ruleset is not what you want to play? Why arent you using something LESS complicated to intro new players?


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Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.
Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?
I want you to give me cupcakes. Why am I not getting cupcakes? Do you have something against me?

Yes I TOTALLY have something against you.

Here's a cupcake anyway. Enjoy.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it,

We have a very interesting public policy tool in my society. It's called an "election."

You see, unlike where you live, in my country, laws are mutable and can be changed. Periodically, there's a mass gathering where people who are interested in what the structure of the laws are get together and decide (individually) whom we wish to make laws on our behalf. If we're serious about it, we are even given the opportunity to affect whom the candidates are going to be, for example, by attending caucuses or primaries or campaigning for specific people whose probity and judgment we trust.

If enough people, for example, decided to promote effective and enforceable public policies to reduce or eliminate privilege, it would be fairly simple to do so.

I recommend it.

Of course, if you aren't given the opportunity to participate in this process, then that does put a damper on things. For example, there are a number of people -- some of them on this thread, I suspect -- who find the idea of reducing their personal privilege to be sufficiently threatening that they're willing to support fairly draconic measures to eliminate the votes of the people who might otherwise threaten their privilege. And a number of others who don't care enough about these measures to fight them.

As a lifelong citizen of the US, I find your belief that elections change anything but which rich people are in charge as truly laughable. Government action is also one of the greatest forces keeping racism alive.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand Simon and I finally agree about something.


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NobodysHome wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

I have to agree with Sissyl. This is just a discussion-ender right here.

I am required to learn the needs of every culture on Earth or I'm a racist.

I guess I'm a racist.

What are we talking about here? I'm an AMERICAN I was born here. I've lived pretty much my entire LIFE here. I'm also a black man. Who is often treated like a criminal or a second class citizen simply because of the color of my skin.

What culture do I need to learn so that I get to be treated like the white people who dont get treated like this? Please tell me?

I speak proper English in polite company (though I code switch with the best of them). I don't dress with my pants down around my legs or in the latest "hood gear" (although if how one dresses should relegate them to second class status I think furries and anyone who wears kilts should be higher up on that list).

I've worked legitimate jobs pretty consistently since I was 14 years old. I have a college degree from an accredited CUNY school here in NY. My wife and I pay our taxes on time! We had our only son, (That's right JUST ONE!) in wedlock! We live within our means. We donate to charity every year. We are avid consumers so we do our part to keep the economy going!

SO PLEASE, tell me what I have to do to stop store security from following me around in stores assuming that I'm there to steal or rob the place. Please tell me what I have to do to not have to worry about the police gunning me down in the street like an animal for "resembling" another suspect. Please tell me what else I have to stop the fact that employers are more likely to hire a white guy with a criminal record than a black man WITHOUT ONE.

Please tell me what I have to do that if I get the misfortune to show up before a judge to get either my case thrown out or get a lesser charge or sentence like my white counterparts often do.

What part of American Culture am I not doing right?


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Sissyl wrote:

This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it, showing deplorable police policies as examples of this untouchable collectivist power structure (seriously, tear up the police departments enough and you will solve that particular piece of s~*$), all of it channeling into "white privilege is the central problem here, but we're not blaming you white guys, just know that the only reason your lives aren't living hell is because of white privilege and don't forget evil white men kept slave m'kay?" It is a collectivistic circle jerk. The way to solve this is to give up the crap about collective identities, ensure Rule of Law is reinstated (this would efficiently kill off all the driving while black offenses, btw), and yes, let us treat each other with empathy. Don't forget, what you're saying above is very close to saying people don't have empathy.

Blah.

It is also worth mentioning that the much vaunted "level playing field", at least in the area of university applications and affirmative action led directly to asian-americans getting an even worse deal than whites did. Should then the asian-americans be given restitution for this?

Kill all the blacks and I'm sure that will fix everything!

See how out of left field that was? That's exactly how I view your hyperbolic response to an otherwise civil conversation that's going on here.


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NobodysHome wrote:


- My personal beliefs center around 'homogenization'. If you want to be an accepted part of the culture, you must accept the culture.
-- If I were to move to China, I would expect to learn Chinese, dress as my Chinese compatriots did, eat their foods, and otherwise accept the 'majority culture'. I would NOT try to create my own enclave of people who spoke my language, ate my foods, and otherwise refused to accept that they were living in a different culture. It's easier and more comfortable to separate yourselves, but it opens you up to discrimination.
-- I see a great deal of 'racism' arising because of an absolute resistance to this idea. "I am from another culture. I want to live with you, but I reject your ideas of a 'cultural norm'." Call me a racist, but I reject the idea that adhering to the standards of the place you are living as 'racist' or 'culturalist'.

Define American Culture please?


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Simon Legrande wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.

Nor should you.

But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.

I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.

That sounds great but so far your only point in this entire thread is to talk about how racism somehow overwhelmingly effects whites.

While I'm sure racism DOES effect whites you come across like the man in a thread discussing sexism and sexual assualt that cries out "but men are victims of rape too!!"

Men ARE victims of rape. Absolutely. But the OVERWHELMING victims of rape and sexual assault are women. And the guy no matter how well meaning who cries out that "men are raped too!!" comes across as trying to deflect from the actual problem. Some people would call that a sense of entitlement from being male. Some would call it a form of silencing. You know "well the people complaining of racism are racists too so they should just shut up." or "if everyone just stopped being racist/talking about racism/acknowledging race" etc...
Me I just call it poor form old chap...


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bugleyman wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.

Nor should you.

But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.

I'm getting a clinc in proper civil discourse and patience from you here Bugleyman.

In all seriousness though, what you said here is something I think more people need to understand. That and acknowledging white privilege isnt going to make someone burst into flames with guilt and shame. That's not the intent.

It's no different that acknowledging that women in general have to concern themselves with their physical safety in a way that men simply do not. Is it wrong for me to acknowledge that? Does it make me and awful person? No, it quite simply something that IS. And something that I do take into consideration when I'm around women who don't know me well or at all. My physical presence CAN be perceived as a possible threat. That's simply reality.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color.

I CANT EVEN...I'm laughing so hard at the irony here that I'm on the verge of CRYING.


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I read some of these responses and it's like reading the responses from some of the MRA guys vs. feminist arguments against sexism and sexual assault. Not exactly the same, but BOY are the parallels there.


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I think what gets me the most about people who talk about racism in threads like this is that it's discussed almost like it's not real. The effects on actual people aren't real. Like it doenst and hasnt effected real people and the people it does effect had it coming because of the group they are part of.

No one is saying that "white" culture is bad. And yes "whites" do get grouped together because "blacks" get grouped together. It's like watching a room full of people with obvious intelligence (INT 15 on average) but no empathy and really, really low wisdom scores (WIS 5 on average). Theoretical application has it's place. But how the real world works and what happens in the real world in terms of race is very different from what a lot of people in this thread think.

I used to (and still do) get angry because I really used to think a lot of the stuff that I read on boards like this one come from a place of malice. I think now I'm just starting to see that while that may be a factor, some of it is just plain lack of empathy and either lack of exposure or willful ignorance. I'm not sure how I should feel about any of that. I mean lack of empathy is pretty typical in this country these days so there's not a lot I can do there.

Either way I figured that this conversation would turn toward the typical canards of "blacks are racist too" "it's not as bad as they say it is" "and white people are victims of racism too" and I was pretty much right. Talking about racism on boards like this one IS an exercise in pissing in the wind. The majority here dont see it as a problem or something that effects them or people that they care about to view it with any sort of empathy or humanity. That's not an indictment, it's just the truth. Issues here with women and LGBT groups are viewed differently simply because everyone here has a female in their lives at some point. It's easier to empathize. The same with LGBT's to an extent.

There is little to almost no empathy here for people of color again not an indictment.


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Buri wrote:


They just don't seem to meet your needs. Nothing says they need to and nothing says you need to be their customer. However, as a classification of needs, I actually think their goal is to meet needs. You and Wizards simply don't coexist on the same road right now.

THIS. Right here.

Exactly THIS.

I support companies that meet my needs and give me what I want. They make something I want? I give them my money. They dont make something I want? I find someone who does and give them money for their services and time.

I give Paizo my money.

I dont give WOTC any money.

Pretty clear cut.


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Buri wrote:
Pricing and value economics don't care about your subjective view of the item in question. There's actually quantifiable work and research put into coming up with a price point. Paizo's own CRB costs $50 and don't mince page numbers. You get either game in print for the same price. That's not to say Wizards modeled there price after Paizo at all. $50 to buy *a* game is pretty standard. It is competitively priced on Amazon perhaps more influenced my Pathfinder which goes for the same price. Your arguments, sunshadow, is entirely trying to tear into Wizards while conveniently ignoring both a) gaming industry (not even print/publishing) standards and b) the practices of the company whose forum on which you're posting. If Wizards is doing it wrong, then so is Paizo and so is most of the games industry.

I just want to point out the fact that with the Pathfinder CRB is the equivalent of the Player's Handbook AND the DM's guide (576 pages). Yes I know about the GameMastery Guide but that's an optional book and is not the full equivalent of a traditional Dungeon Masters Guide. The 5E Player's Handbook is JUST the Player's Handbook (320pgs). Most other games that come out at the $50 - $70 price point (FFG's Warhammer 40K and Star Wars RPG's (448 pages) for example) have pretty much everything that you need to run the game.

But I do believe that Wizards has the right to set the price at whatever they feel the market will bear. And apparently @ $50 a pop it bears quite well.


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sunshadow21 wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Because those people can't go to Amazon and get it for $30 if they're not sure about paying $50? You seem to be arguing that people who aren't sure about it will be basing their decision on the list price, not on the price they'd actually be paying. Which seems odd.

You're going to lose some impulse buys in brick and mortar stores with the higher price point, but for anyone shopping online and worried about price, the actual price is whatever discounted price Amazon offers.
Now, if they'd actually priced it at $40, then the Amazon discount would get it closer to $20, so maybe that's an argument.

People are more likely to impulse buy a physical product they can see and touch and skim through. Very few people to go Amazon or the internet for impulse purchases or to buy something they are still unsure off.

LOL. I must be doing it wrong then because I sure as hell impulse buy from amazon and other online retailers and definitely DO NOT impulse buy when I have to pay full price in a brick and mortar.

If I have budget of $50 for the Players Handbook and Amazon has it for $30? I'm more than likely to also pick up Hoard of the Dragon Queen for $19 pretty much filling up my $50 budget. In store? I'm stuck with one or the other. Amazon actually increases my chance of an impulse buy because of the prices as opposed to a brick and mortar.

EDIT: Re; your comment about impulse buys in store? Sticker shock can stop an impuse buy right in it's tracks in a brick and mortar. I've seen it happen. Hell, it's happened to ME.


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Maybe this thread should be retitled "Yeah I was slumming it with Pathfinder but now that ACTUAL D&D is back I'm better now..."

I love how it seems like Deja vu from around 2007 or so when everyone was basically bashing and saying the same thing about 3.5 in preparation for 4E.

The more things change the more they say the same I guess.


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Legendarius wrote:
Given the Greyhawk pedigree of a number of folks here at Paizo, one wonders if WotC made the offer to produce several official adventures for 5E Greyhawk like Kobold just did for Realms, whether Paizo would be willing to consider it.

I really would hope NOT.


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Scott Betts wrote:
Kenjishinomouri wrote:

Why is Wotc wasting their time follying up a whole new edition of their game when they should just cave in and market their settings and own adventures. They could at least make some money on the success of their most recently successful edition 3.75.

Seriously with all their settings they have more than enough products they could sell and easily make a decent profit. WE NEED EBERRON, DRAGONLANCE, FORGOTTEN REALMS, GHOSTWALK, RAVENLOFT..... The list goes on, right there you have 5 months worth of just hardcovers, then you could go for adventures, miniatures, etc.... seriously do they have apes sitting in the ceo chairs making these pathetic decisions. If they are gonna continue to blindly destroy everything they had worked on for so long they could at least get along with it faster and sell the dnd license to paizo, at least then it would be put to good use.

Frankly I think it would just be better for everyone involved if you chose not to concern yourself with anything having to do with published D&D products going forward.

Yeah I almost never agree with Scott on anything. But yeah man just...WALK AWAY.


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If you feel the need to consistently cheat to "Win" then that says something about your character and youre not the type of person that i want to be around. If you make excuses for someone else's need to consistently cheat then that says something about your character and youre not the type of person that I want to be around.

Either way the person that the OP is talking about needs to find another group.

It's a GAME FFS, just take your lumps. If you have to feel the need to cheat an RPG then seriously, what kind of person are you?


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What is the definintion of "problem" in this case? Is it just a rule that you don't like? Or is it something that is fine but doesnt mesh with your table's playstyle? Or is it something that can honestly break the game? And when I say "break" I mean having seen it in action at the table, played the rule in conjunction with the other rules of the game and found that it's not something that can be fixed simply by proper application of the rules as written as a whole.

For me a "problem" is that last thing because then you simply have to house rule it or remove that element from the game.

But just because I make certain changes as to how I play at my table doenst mean that I have problems with the rules. It means, "Hey these rules are fine. But I have something specific that I want to pull of here so I'm going to supplant these rules with my own."

In my case it's more hit points at first level. It's full hit dice + CON score. Not bonus, SCORE. So a fighter with CON 15 starts off with 25 HP at first level. Increases PC survivability and doesnt break the game. Our Campaign has been going on close to 5 years and there's been quite a few character deaths but they've all had fighting chances due to the hp buff.
Does that mean the starting HP rules in the Core Rulebook are broken or a "problem"? Nope. I just like mine better so I use those.


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Carl Hanson wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Agreed.

However, many of the complaints on here are so vociferous, angst ridden, completely negative, and even hate filled that I can't understand why they still play the game.

The game became even MORE fun when I got pissed at the devs.

I stopped attempting to listen to their often contradictory opinions on what good game design should be, and the numerous unnecessary and detrimental FAQs they've released (See: Crane Wing, Weapon Cords) and just decided to play a fun game with minimal developer interference ruining the experience for me.

There's something to be said for this attitude. I rarely go to the errata or FAQs for Pathfinder. Not because I'm pissed at the developers, but because I game with a group of highly intellegent people who can figure out how we want most of the rules to work ourselves in a way that we will have fun playing.

Yeah I've never understood the whole "getting pissed at the developers" thing. I dont know, maybe I come from a different era but when we were playing D&D back in the day, when we came across a rule or something that we didnt like or want to use? We just changed it or didnt use it.

We didnt get hot at designers or call them out in Dragon Magazine. We were more concerned about playing our game. And that's it.

Now I understand how the rules could greatly impact a PFS game so I could see how THOSE players might be annoyed. But that's one of the other reasons that I simply refuse to do PFS or living games of any type.
I have no tolerance for people just being self-entitled jerks. Not saying that's the bulk of PFS players, it's not. But if the rules threads here are any indication of the type of player that plays PFS? I'm glad that I stay away. There's a way to get your gripes across without being a jerk. Unfortunately it seems that more than a few people dont know how or are actively being jerks about it.


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HELL NO.


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bugleyman wrote:
Southeast Jerome wrote:

If the new 1.5e core rulebook were demonstrably better, i.e., better organized and indexed, and easier to use at the table, then I think plenty of existing players, myself included, would happily purchase it, even if there were no new rules.

Just as importantly, if they could also make the intro to the game less intimidating and confusing for new players, perhaps by integrating some material from the Beginner Box and this fall's Strategy Guide, I think the game would be able to compete for new players much more effectively. As it is, the core rulebook is very intimidating and confusing to someone new to RPGs, and the same ruleset with a better layout would be an easier sell and would grow the player base.

It would also be easier to use at the table, which to me is a paramount concern.

Yeah I dont even reach for the core rulebook anymore these days. I have my tablet or phone and just use either the PFR or PFRPG rd apps for quick reference.


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Buri wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I always remind GMs, you don't have to know the ins and outs of every class that exists. You just need to be passably familiar with the 4-6 classes that will be sat at your table. If something seems hinky just say: "Can you show that to me in the book/PRD?" A simple search function should answer most questions at the table fairly quickly.
This is a great concept but falls apart pretty quick when Paizo uses all those new resources in APs. If you run PFS then you need a general awareness of everything as you have no guarantees as what's in one session to another.

You have a strong point about PFS. But then again I avoid Organized Play like the plague.

But Paizo using their own material in AP's or adventures isn't much of a hinderance if you're a GM, have pre-read the material that you're going to run and have an internet connection.

I'd say that if you're running a pre-written adventure of any kind without reading it thoroughly first, you're doing yourself and your players a disservice.


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RainyDayNinja wrote:

G: [over the radio] "I know! You construct a weapon. Look around you; can you form some sort of rudimentary lathe?"

J: "A lathe? Get off the line!"

My favorite Star Trek movie (next to WRATH OF KHAN) - GALAXY QUEST.


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D&D is going to overtake the top spot again simply because of brand recognition. Even as a Paizo fan that much is bloody clear. It's going to be like that for at least a year or so.

Doesnt mean that it's a great game (It might be). Doesnt mean it's the best game. It's just the BEST KNOWN game. And on the strength of that it's going to 'win'.

Then again 4E started very, very strong too with everyone loving it and those who didnt were wrong, didnt like change and would be playing it eventually. The real test will be if people are still excited and playing it 2 - 3 years from now with the same passion.


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JoeJ wrote:
tsuruki wrote:
The reason pathfinder still ives and STILL sells better then the newest 5th edition stuff is that the Rules crunch bloat, despite what your DM-fatigue is telling you, is sometimes nessessary to keep the system strong.
Well, that plus the fact that 5e just hit the regular book and game stores today.

This hasnt stopped the WOTC & D&D proponents from declaring it a success. Technically the Starter Box has been out for about a month. So 5E has been in the hands of the public for at least that long.


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Squirrel_Dude wrote:


I don't know, but maybe after two revisions, and two different companies attempting to make things work, it's fair to ask if 3.0 has core flaws that will have to change for it to be what you want. Core flaws that, when changed, will stop the game from continuing to be compatible with older editions.

If you think that changing the game so much to fix perceived issues will change the game to make it unrecognizable from what it was before (thus making it incompatible with older editions)?

Why not just play another game?

let me clarify something here: I'm not telling you to beat it and go play another game. I'm saying that, I love supers games. There are supers rules that do it for me (HERO System, Old Mayfair DC HEROES and M&M) and systems that absolutely DO NOT (the latest iteration of Marvel, Villains and Vigilantes, FASERIP Marvel).

The games that don't work for me? I don't play those. Nor do I go to their forums and say that they don't work for me and should change TO work for me. There are people who love those games, for whatever reasons, just the way that they are.

HERO System has gone through a bunch of revisions since it's iteration but at it's core it's pretty much close to the same game. So much so that I can take a source book from 4th Edition (around 1989 or so) and convert the stats to 5th or 6th edition with relative ease.

M&M 3rd Ed is different enough from 2nd edition but not so different that I cant convert things between the two.

The same goes for 3.5 and Pathfinder. I'm running COTCT using Pathfinder rules and have been for the past few years or so. are there hiccups? sure but I sort those out. Our game isn't broken or slow and if there's something that doesn't make sense or work for our table we change it so that it does. But I don't write to Paizo of come on their message boards insisting that it might be time for a new edition. That's just me though.

There ARE problems with the game breaking down at higher levels but that problem has been around at least since 2nd edition.

If people want a more balance FRPG? Try a skill bases system like HERO or Rolemaster. It's more work at the outset but in the end you get exactly what you put into it.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else here about what to do. I'm asking questions and clarifying my own positions.


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Just for clarifications sake, I'm all for a revised edition that cleans up present rules issues, re-organizes the core rule book and gives us a decent index.

I'm not for completely changing the rule system into something else entirely. Whether it be making it a rules light system and getting rid of the myriad of options that Pathfinder at present has or making it a completely different kind of game in pursuit of that goal.


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Odraude wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I think there's a value in a game which rewards the fact that your abilities at math and gaming the system are better than Average Joe's.

While I partly agree with this, I don't think Pathfinder does this. It doesn't reward you for your ability to math out the best solution, or any natural gaming instincts. More than anything, it rewards you investing large amounts of time to delving through books and keeping up with developments within the metagame. New Feats, Archetypes, Errata, FAQ rulings invalidating/improving previous builds, Spells, etc.

Directed at the Thread in general.
My favorite type of argument against a second edition is the "Just find another game instead of forcing Pathfinder to change, so we can all be happy." As if there being a second edition of Pathfinder, or a revised edition would suddenly make the 1e stop existing. Even if Paizo did stop producing new content for Pathfinder, it would probably take me another 5 years to get through half of what they've published so far.

My second favorite argument: "Why should Paizo change the game for you, when you can do that yourself?" I don't know, maybe because the people requesting that change want to give Paizo their money. Now, I'm not going to argue that it will be profitable, and that they wouldn't risk splitting the fanbase. However, berating people for saying "Paizo, could you let us pay your for this service," is baffling to me.

I can agree to this. Those arguments do little for the debate at handle, instead just being highly dismissing. These same arguments are used when people ask for psionics or Asian settings or firearms. I hated them then and I hate these arguments now.

You know what? It may sound dismissive but the argument is not invalid. Some of the changes people are asking for WILL result in completely different game than what we have now. I'm not talking about the people who are asking for updates and clarification. I'm talking about the people who want an almost different game with the Pathfinder name on it.

It's the same thing that happened with 3.5 to 4E. And we got 4E. Not saying that 4E was even a bad game but it was very different than what we had previously and that put alot of people off D&D.

*looks around at the Paizo site*

Enough so that we're HERE. That's all I'm saying. People who want to use a hammer to fix a problem should use a hammer or some variation thereof. They shouldn't be using a chainsaw unless they're planning on destroying the project entirely and starting over.

I dont agree with the example of dismissing of Asian settings, Psionics or Firearms. Hypothetically, I may not be a huge fan of those things (in reality they ALL have their place in fantasy and in truth wouldn't completely bar them from my games) but they are things that CAN be excluded without effecting the game at present at all. These people are talking about scuttling the core game itself to make something that they'd like while telling the people who are enjoying the game at present that they can always keep playing the game as it is now.

This sort of thing sounds oddly familiar to me for some reason...Oh yeah it's exactly what the obnoxious 4E fans said to 3.5 people when 4E came out. The only other thing I'm waiting for is the classic: "Oh they'll switch over to the new system sooner or later. What choice do they have?"


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It really sounds to me like people either actually want other games and not Pathfinder. It also sounds like the same old thing that happened during the tail end of 3.5 just before 4E came.

People wanted this whole other thing. But instead of either customizing the game to what THEY wanted at their table they were content to push to get the entire game changed to what they wanted.

Those of us who are either fine with things the way that they are or would like a revised version of Pathfinder get to keep playing the game we like while everyone else goes to play something else or makes the present game their own.

I dont play Pathfinder as it is right out of the box, so to speak. I have house rules just like I assume most people do but you dont see me saying that my house rules should be CORE. I dont know what's right for everyone.I dont presume that much.

All these people saying that they want a smoother simpler game and feel that Pathfinder isnt that should in fact go find a smoother simpler game to play and make everyone happy.

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