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Pathfinder Society Member. 4,973 posts. 9 reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character.


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Andoran

Elric

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The first thing I would say for such a module is why would anyone want to play it? I show up to a game and I'm told my wizard can't cast spells, I'm going home, it doesn't matter what you do to encounters at that point.

The second thing I would say is don't be lazy. There is no formula for you changing half the rules of the game. Fighting a vampire in a no wealth game is vastly different than fighting a tiger in a no wealth game, even if they are the same cr.

Andoran

I would probably step it up to 5, figure minutes per at 3, flat hour at 4, and hour per at 5. But I tend to be on the safe side with things like thiz as well.

Andoran

DaveMage wrote:
RJGrady wrote:


3. You can't say nothing. Some people may not want to hear about other stuff going on ("I have another project to get out of the way") but you can't wait forever to post something because you have another project to get out of the way.

Here's the thing about this one, though. If you have other projects, get them done BEFORE YOU DO THE KICKSTARTER!!!! If you can't make the Kickstarter your priority, you are not ready to do the Kickstarter.

One of the Kickstarters I have supported is over a year late and up until a month ago still had updates from the creator that he has to finish another project first. So, so infuriating....

I agree with this 100%. Being in this exact situation and getting told this exact thing soured me on a company that I otherwise really liked.

Andoran

GreyWolfLord wrote:
On further reflect, I'd say, yes....I'll agree it is religious discrimination. That's how it's written, with the caveat this is something that directly affects Asian Americans currently due to the background of many of them as well.

I have no doubt that it hits that racial group more than others, I'm simply stating that the quote you provided didn't add to your case. I'm not arguing with you, just saying your evidence doesn't support it.

Quote:
The first ID...was NOT an In State ID. That stated, I did have in-state ID issued directly from the city...

A library card is not an ID in any real sense of the word. (As an Oklahoman, I'm going to be having to deal with this soon enough, Okla drivers liscenses aren't going to be enough to board planes in a couple years. Thankfully, tribal IDs are sufficient so I get off easier than some people who'll actually have to get a passport.)

Quote:
but was told when I was getting it out that it had to be local, and since the address was NOT in city limits...basically, the address was not local enough. I then had other forms of ID beyond that, but as they did not have my picture on it, they stated those would not count.

If you tried to provide an ID that said you lived out of state, and then when told that wouldn't work you tried to provide a second ID that said you lived somewhere else, I wouldn't rent to you either.

Quote:
Is that specific enough? I thought I went over that already in the first post.

Yes, that was specific enough. And no, you didn't go over it in the first post.

Quote:

I actually went back and got clarification from a manager. It appears that I actually had a form of ID that should have been accepted, and in fact that with my present situation...even the DL may have been acceptable!

BUT....I was kind of disgusted with how the first experience had gone and had an unhappy feeling turning over in the pit of my stomach, and I did not want to have to deal with the same employee again, so I went to a store next door that rented the same stuff...and where my ID was accepted immediately. They were very helpful, totally different experience.

Your best bet is to just shake it off. Were you discriminated against? Possibly. I greatly doubt it will be the last time. People suck, it happens. Just remember, their negative actions and attitude are not a reflection on you, it is a reflection on them.

Andoran

GreyWolfLord wrote:

What happens, is if you are white and Muslim (actually rather rare in the US), you don't get as much against you if you are of Arabian (aka, SW Asian) descent.

You still can get some serious stuff tossed at you if you go all out in the traditional clothing, but it seems like people are not quite as hostile...even then, there are VERY few European Muslims in the States relatively speaking.

On the otherhand, a majority getting death threats are the SW Asians, North Africa Types, and other Asians (Ironically, Americans occasionally can't tell the difference between Hindi and Muslim, and throw hatecrimes and death threats towards them as well for being Muslim, even though they aren't).

SE Asians from certain nations who wear the traditional Islamic attire I understand get it even worse, as not only are they persecuted for the idea of them being Muslim, but also for being East Asian.

People normally equate the SW Asian (normally the Arabic peoples) with Islam, which is not a bad assumption since a majority of SW Asians are Muslim (I'm certain there are some that are not, there are Christian communities in the ME believe it or not), and hence I find the hate and hate crimes are more focused on the SW Asians in the assumption that they are all automatically Islamic.

People don't look at a person of White European descent and say...oh...that guy must be Muslim...but they do with SW Asians many times.

For many, SW Asian and Muslim mean the same thing to them...it's a stereotype that they are against...and for some reason think all SW Asians who are Muslims are crazies like they see on TV.

Unfortunately, for Asian Americans (especially those of SW Asian descent born in the US), it doesn't matter if you are just as American as they are...for some reason they (those who do these hate crimes and simple discrimination) always consider you a foreigner and are a bit wary of you.

Your quote specifically says it will burn the mosque down with ALL the worshippers inside. Doesn't matter if those worshippers are white or not. (Remember, I was addressing the quote you put in your post.)

I do find it interesting that you totally avoided saying rather or not you had an in state ID for the rental place, so I'll ask again. Was your ID an in state ID?

Andoran

Vincent Takeda wrote:

@shadowcatx not suuuper worried about summon monster 9... for a first level we're talking about only 1 round in duration... A storm giant for 6 seconds isnt striking me as 'oh noes' quite yet... I may change my mind.

One full round of attacks will kill any 3 first level characters you care to draw up. And its only 1 round if you're an idiot, a summoner has it for a minute, other classes have ways of at least extending it to 2 rounds, and that's plenty.

Sounds like you're just wanting people to tell you its a good idea, but no one will because it isn't, it is a horrible idea.

Andoran

Summon Monster 9. /thread.

Andoran

Honestly I'd probably say there is no need to worry about delivering on time or even spending the money where it is supposed to go, just claim a crisis happened, you don't even need to say what from the responses I've seen around here, but that isn't a best practice, just par for the course.

The one practice I would suggest, be up front about who is working on a project and what experiences they have. Other than that I think you all have covered everything I used to say.

And as soon as I say that one more, be official. Don't do a kick starter for a product in your name. Create a business, and I mean legally not just thinking of a name, and do your kickstarter through that business. While I loathe individuals who renig on their kickstarter promises there's no need for anyone to lose their house because they couldn't refund a project that failed.

Andoran

Sounds like they didn't want you to bring it back, complain it didn't work, and want your money back. Was your ID in state?

Also, your quote does very, very little to help prove your case on racial discrimination. Religious discrimination against muslims? Sure. I live in Oklahoma, no doubt in my mind there.

Andoran

Seems fishy to me. It isn't like this is the first trans iconic.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
SnakeoilSage wrote:
I certainly don't want to stain anyone's reputation over this. I've spoken to those with concerns; we've cleared the air a bit and I think we've reached an understanding. I'm just waiting to hear back from one of the individuals involved, but I agree, a reasonable solution is to credit every author involved, something I intended to do if we ever got the book to print.

The time to figure stuff like this out is before the kickstarter, not in the middle of the kickstarter after someone calls you out on it. If you're this careless on something this important, how do you treat the rest of the work?

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Undone wrote:
Free metamagic is a big offender (rods, spell perfection, Generalist wizards) summoning is obnoxiously powerful at low levels but can be dealt with if the summoner isn't tough, unfortunately with free con that's never the case. Save or sucks are rarely a problem. Monsters I use tend to have strong spell defenses.

Then ban free metamagic.

Quote:
I've run on nearly nothing to WBL x3. The core issue is that casters use wealth better than martial so no amount of altering Wealth is going to work. When I tried giving the party big bonus weapons they'd sell them and give a ton of the money to casters for magical power.

Yes, casters use wealth better, but if you jack up the prices on castery things and lower the price on sharp pointy things, the discrepancy will be lowered.

Andoran

Going with E6/E8 or even Dungeon World handles the problem better than penalizing characters for their class. Penalizing people for playing what they enjoy is just anti-fun.

So here's some questions:

Has the caster / martial divide actually hurt your games? If so, how? Was it certain spells in particular? Look at fixing those.

What wealth do you run at? Martials need wealth far more than casters do. Alternatively, if you want to punish characters for the classes they choose, do it here, lower the price of weapons, raise the price of scrolls / purchasing spells for spell books, pearls of power, etc.

Andoran

Nope. Once per turn means once per turn.

Andoran

So someone is doing something and a discussion of his character, which directly impacts what they are doing, is not allowed?

Andoran

If you want to see strong female characters who aren't defined by their relationships with men, check out A Game of Thrones if you haven't already.

Andoran

If it lists a domain and a subdomain that means the domain and that subdomain are legal, but all the other subdomains are off limits.

Andoran

Personally, I'm a sucker for assassins backed up with some magic, I loved both Taltos and Kylar. (Before Vlad's marriage fell apart and he got whiney.)

I like it when magic is awe inspiring. I can understand how toned down magic is easier to work with but this is fantasy, be bold, fill me with wonder make me go "Oh, wow!" And if someone can do the oh wow, let others react to them appropriately.

For an example of that I'm going to use the book something from the nightside. When the main character addresses a group of demonic other worldly beings and demands they stop their activities they demand to know who addresses them. He tells them his name and they say ok and "Farewell sweet prince, remember us when you come into your kingdom." He hasn't even done anything impressive at that point in the book, but you suddenly know he's kind of a big deal. So much better than just telling us he's a big deal, like say Zedd, in the Seeker series who doesn't do anything impressive for like 6 books despite being the world's premiere wizard.

Andoran

BigDTBone wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
First, the policemen involved in the shooting have been suspended with pay pending investigation. Second, all we have is the word of an attorney who refused to release the name of the person who did the autopsy or the autopsy report. I think we should wait on at least one of those two things before we get up in arms about it.

YAY VACATION!!!!!

Autopsy report was already released man. Shot in the back six times.

ShadowcatX is saying (I think) that the only 'source' of the autopsy info is the attorney. IE, no one has been able to independently review and verify that report. Nor has anyone been able to speak to the person who performed said autopsy.

That is exactly what I was saying.

Andoran

Never seen a thread get more than half, also more than 100, posts get removed and stay open. I think I'm impressed. On topic:

What do y'all think about people who go to movies, pay for one then go to various movies over the course of a day? Douches for the special hell or sticking it to the man?

Andoran

First, the policemen involved in the shooting have been suspended with pay pending investigation. Second, all we have is the word of an attorney who refused to release the name of the person who did the autopsy or the autopsy report. I think we should wait on at least one of those two things before we get up in arms about it.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


What is keeping the dragon from wearing armor, or the ogre from using a potion of enlarge person?
Now, you're right that a dragon could commission a set of barding, assuming he was willing to humble himself enough to cooperate with a crafter in such fashion, and was willing to part with the fairly substantial amount of his hoard that it would cost. But why would he want to? He's already a terrifying engine of destruction, and armor is hot and uncomfortable.

You think the dragon is going to pay a humanoid to make his armor for him? The humanoid's payment is his life. Heck, what better reason for keeping a small army of kobolds around is there than that they are making you things?

Andoran

Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:

Would you equally object to a doctor giving someone who was bleeding out (say from trauma) a transfusion if they had a braclet saying they opted not to take another individual's blood for religious reasons? We'll even say the person is unconscious so you can't simply ask them.

Eta: Or, to avoid the religious topic assume they are under the influence and cannot consent to a life saving, emergency, procedure.

Presumably they were of sound mind when getting the bracelet.

That doesn't mean they weren't coerced into getting it.

Andoran

Honestly I like the idea but I'm not sure about the execution, experienced combatants are going to be able to read their enemy's movements and react to even minor changes on the fly, your system doesn't allow for that much. Beyond that penalizing martial characters by making full attacks risky is bad.

Andoran

I'll usually try and ignore it, but if I can't I will say something once, after that I'm going to go get the staff. It just isn't worth it to confront people now days, you never know when someone is one comment away from pulling a knife or a gun.

Andoran

Despite the down playing of very serious side effects and some very barbaric lines of treatment, keep in mind, these medicines generally (not always of course, but much more oftten than not) are very good for the people that need them and often lead to a signifint improvement in the quality of a person's life.

Would you equally object to a doctor giving someone who was bleeding out (say from trauma) a transfusion if they had a braclet saying they opted not to take another individual's blood for religious reasons? We'll even say the person is unconscious so you can't simply ask them.

Eta: Or, to avoid the religious topic assume they are under the influence and cannot consent to a life saving, emergency, procedure.

Andoran

Freehold DM wrote:

I was wondering when ECT was going to be brought up.

Yes, it exists. I have two people on my caseload who have had it done. Both had it done voluntarily in the 80s(they aren't spring chickens). One utterly hated it. The other disliked it, but stated it actually worked on his diagnosis for months- roughly as long as he could ride on the med-go-round- without the ugly sexual side effects he hated. To my knowledge, it still exists, but it isn't done that often. There's also some work that has been done in electrical stimulation(not shock) via leads to the brain on the head, and other things, going as far as the idea of a pacemaker for the brain, which requires surgery and has produced some positive results. I have never personally witnessed ect, and while I could be wrong, but noone in my place of business does it, and that's the lens I see things through on a daily basis. There is a world outside my four walls, though, so if anyone wants to share, please do.

The person whom I got my information on ECT from received it less than 2 years ago. And saying that person hated it, is not nearly strong enough language to describe how the person felt and still feels about it. To this day the person experiences anxiety simply plugging something into an electrical outlet, to say nothing of the damage it caused.

Quote:
With respect to antidepressants, Yeah, there is a suicide risk attached. There is also a weight gain risk attached. The suicide risk has given most meds in that category a considerable and deserved black eye, as that particular type of med(can't remember the exact category) was providing energy to counter the lethargy associated with depression while doing little to help with the actual depression. There's also a dosage related issue there, but that is something that leads to arguments more often than not, so I'm not really going to go into that.

My point wasn't to try and say that anti-depressants (or any psychiatric medications for that matter) are bad, far from it. I am, however, trying to show that they can and sometimes do have SERIOUS side effects that don't deserve to be waved off with "a pound or two" and "inability to achieve sexual release, which you probably weren't doing anyways cause you're depressed" type comments.

Quote:
Forcing someone to take meds? I know in the State of New York, you have to go to court to prove that, and at the end of the day, someone can decide to NOT take meds at all, and deal with the consequences on all levels. That can be a long path, and if there's a whiff of violence you could find yourself committed involuntarily. Things have changed a great deal since my first day at work to today in that area, and while I think things have improved, I don't think they are perfect yet, I do think they are moving, glacially, in a direction where everyone involved- patient, family, medical staff- has a voice and a part to play in the decision.

It isn't just going to court. It is court, doctors visits, and quite possibly other consequences (as you mention), none of which are cheap or easy. And here in Oklahoma, I'd say things are a long LONG way away from being perfect.

ETA: I am not a health care professional.

Andoran

@Sissyl: You know (or should know) that I respect you, but I think you are seriously downplaying the risks associated with medications and forced treatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following.

@Everyone Else: The following is not the norm, however, I'm going to discuss it because it does exist.

Let's talk about depression, Sissyl mentioned the side effects include gaining a pound or two. First, "a pound or two" is possible, but going from a normal, healthy weight to morbidly obese is also possible, and can bring its own serious health (both physical and mental) risks. Second, one of the biggest risks in anti-depressants is an increased risk of suicide (usually in the first week or so of treatment) when people are regaining their motivation to act, but their vision is still colored by a lack of hope.

But there are treatments far more distressing than being forced into anti-depression medication. Say the anti-depressants don't help (and they don't help everyone), you may get to be graduated to ECT* which has a whole host of permanent side effects including permanent brain damage (which is actually the goal of ECT) and permanent nerve damage.

*ECT

Spoiler:
If you don't know what ECT is, you might know it by its more common name, electric shock therapy, aka. where they strap you to a table, face down so you don't choke on your own vomit, and try and destroy enough of your brain so you're not depressed any more.

Also, the process of getting someone declared incompetent against their will (which is what the whole force them into medical treatment relies upon), is neither easy nor cheap (especially if you want it to be done quickly, which if there's serious problems you would want). You'll have a leg up if the person is an immediate relative, but if the person is functioning (which many people with depression and mania are) then you're in for a serious struggle and you're not guaranteed to win, even if you're right.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with this. People are born the way they're supposed to be

What supposed? According to whom? Deity? Biology? Sociology? Existentialism?

Biology is a cold, harsh and uncaring mistress to the individual. It makes gravity look nice. All biology cares about is that the DNA keeps on getting to reproduce, and its motto is "close enough for state work". If some individuals only live a short life filled with nothingbut pain and misery who cares! there are reserves.

BNW and I agree on something. The world has gone mad.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.

From where I sit, Scott has been very reasonable. If you'renot inteested in discussion on this topic why are you in this thread?

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
xn0o0cl3 wrote:
Can anyone explain what a piece of "honest" game journalism would look like? I honestly can't really conceive of it. What can a game review actually be except for an extension of game advertising? Are honest game reviews supposed to be objective or something? How would that even be possible if the review is literally just the opinion of the journalist? What else could it possibly be?

Go to endzeitgeist.com and read some of his reviews of third party products for pathfinder.

Andoran

Scott Betts wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Welcome to the real world. This (and much worse) happens. A lot. In every industry. The food you believe safe, the drugs you believe will make you well, the brake pads that will protect you and your loved ones, even our precious table top rpg community, they all have flawed and outright bad people working on them. Trust no one.
Should those people be exposed as "outright bad" when the opportunity arises?

In a perfect world where everything is simple and provable in court and won't interrupt on going police investigations,then probably. But here's a question, why is it being exposed? I watched the first few minutes of the first video, you know what I got? That a woman had sex with some people outside of her relationship and the vlogger doesn't care. Don't know who the guys were, don't know if they pressured her into it or if she offerred in exchange for something, etc.

Andoran

Ok, ignoring the fact that there is no solid evidence this happened beyond the word of an extremely biased source...

Welcome to the real world. This (and much worse) happens. A lot. In every industry. The food you believe safe, the drugs you believe will make you well, the brake pads that will protect you and your loved ones, even our precious table top rpg community, they all have flawed and outright bad people working on them. Trust no one.

Andoran

CR 5 ish encounter for a party that's ECL 7 or so. They should manage just fine, though as always with axes there's a chance of Crit, you're dead. (Not a high one, with 4th level characters, if they were smart enough not to tank Con, but it is there.)

Andoran

The race builder is very, VERY, badly balanced. I would not use it to try and make a balanced race, nor allow my players to do the same. Instead, use it as a starting off point, and then make tweaks to balance as necessary.

Andoran

Simon Legrande wrote:
They say 1:68 children has some form of autism, am I the only one who sees that as utterly ludicrous? Am I the only one who thinks too many people just want a drug to make the problems go away?

What are your qualifications to make that decision, because you are going against hundreds, if not thousands, of doctors, and thousands of hours of research.

Andoran

I ran a soul thief for a bit and virtually all my feats went to expanded knowledge so I could steal the best powers from other lists. Boat loads of class features, and the best (and most spammable) powers = winning combination. That was a while ago and the vitalist might have been updated since then however, not that having energy missiles or astral constructs is ever a bad thing.

Andoran

Fixed my link. And yeah, not quite sure what Algeria was going for, though I do admit, it has a certain appeal to it. . .

Still a better photoshop job than the second U.S.A. pic.

Andoran

Rysky wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
In China it is illegal to reincarnate without prior government approval.
Illegal for the one being reincarnated, or the one being reincarnated into?

Given that they're the same person, does it matter?

Also, the idea of beauty is very different across the globe, as seen here.

Andoran

I would probably rule that he can no longer summon his eidolon at all. If I thought this wasn't an attempt on his part to game the system, I might offer im a one time conversion to a normal summoner.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the assesment has a 31% pass rate?

That aside, basic algebra is extremely useful in every day life, but it is so second nature to most of us we don't even think about it. (I have 50 dollars to spend on concert tickets. Concert tickets are $10. How many can I buy? = [10x=50, solve for x.])

Andoran

Regular mounts as animals. Animals do not have class levels. Experience is only used for advancing class levels. Ergo, mounts do not gain experience.

Andoran

BigNorseWolf wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.
Yes. I can. Simply declaring a state of war does not create moral parity. Israel is the aggressor taking Palestinian land. They have been doing so steadily and repeatedly for 50 years. Fighting to prevent that is more just than fighting to continue it.

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree, because IMO: If someone is trying to kill you, you have every right to try and kill them back. The fact that they might have a legitimate reason to try and kill you doesn't invalidate that. Everyone, man, woman, child, soldier, etc. has a right to defend their own lives.

Quote:
Quote:
Eta: If the food isn't being given away it is no different than any other contraband.

Ok. Stop.

Go look in the mirror.

Repeat out loud

There is no need to try and make this personal, drop with the attacks.

Quote:
Holy HELL man.. CONTRABAN? Contraban? I'm sorry, big brother israel thinks you can use that chicken sandwhich for TERROR CALORIES! If you're not on the brink of starvation they you could fight back! And we can't have that! You must be starving or the terrorists might almost put up a fight!'

What do you think happens to food that gets smuggled in? Do you think it goes to the poor who wouldn't otherwise get it, starving children perhaps? Or do you think it goes to the people who can afford it (and who wouldn't be going without anyways) or who are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, basically allowing Hamas to make slaves of their own people?

There are two reasons to smuggle, humanitarian and for profit. If Hamas isn't doing it as humanitarian aid, then it is for profit, and it doesn't matter what is smuggled, all it amounts to in the end is dollar signs (and that very likely translates to rockets fired at Israel).

Quote:
No. It doesn't. Its ok to smuggle because NO ONE, no government, not your own, and certainly not the militaristic expansionist government of your occupiers, has the right to tell you that you can't have a damned sandwhich

Governments do it all the time my friend. "Sorry, your population is getting too fat, no more selling large sodas at ball games." "Sorry, raw chicken is deadly you can't serve it." (Its only deadly because we don't enforce standards to make it safe.) "Sorry, milk has to be refrigerated, you can't serve it warm." (Again, proper pasteurization techniques would allow milk to be stored on a shelf without problems.)

Andoran

meatrace wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
I supose as one of Israel's supporters generally I should mention that I think this land grab is a ridiculously bad idea and that nothing good will come from it.
Then why did you defend it upthread?

I never defended this land grab. I think you misread something.

ETA: I know what you're talking about. I was referring to the creation of Israel as a whole, not this particular land grab. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my previous posts.

Andoran

thejeff wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Are Palestinians arrested by Israel all given due process, phone calls, lawyers and bail?

That's why I made the comparison. When Hamas does it, it's kidnapping. When Israel does it, it's arresting. But it's the same thing.
If you have evidence they aren't being given basic human rights after being arrested I would like to see it.

Amnesty International

"Administrative detentions". Not to mention torture.

Bleh. Six of one, half a dozen of the other then. Thank you for the link.

Andoran

thejeff wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and much harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.
Which so far have all been military targets, which the palastinians have every justification for doing.
In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.

Two points.

1) They are not at war. They cannot be at war. War exists between states. Israel is an Occupying Power, holding control of the Palestinian Territories. As such they have far more responsibility for protecting civilians under that control than they would in a normal state of war. Hamas is a resistance movement in occupied territory.

2) That said, Israel does have the right to kill or arrest resistance fighters, which would include Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades and arguably the senior leadership of Hamas itself. Not, "every member of Hamas", which would low-level bureaucrats and other government officials. However, they do not have the right to disproportionate use of force or excessive civilian casualties. They do not have the right to collective punishment of Palestinian civilians.

But that's all legal niceties and doesn't really matter. Practically, Israel has the right to do damn near anything it pleases to Palestinians as long as it doesn't upset the American public enough that the US government has act on it.

And Hamas "resistance fighters" have a duty not to involve civilians, yet it happens. They have as much responsibility for the deaths of their people as the Israelis.

That said, you're right about the practicality of what happens. What Hamas really needs is a damn good PR departmment in the EU.

And "every member of Hamas" was a terrible choice of words.

Andoran

BigNorseWolf wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
I supose as one of Israel's supporters generally I should mention that I think this land grab is a ridiculously bad idea and that nothing good will come from it.

Ok, now the hard part.

What can the palastinians do about it, what should they do about it, and what are they morally allowed to do about it?

If you are asking me is it a justification to attack Israel, then sure, but they will lose, and cause more of their own people to die. This will also ensure the loss of land is permanent, and likely what Israel wants.

Honestly, what they should do is appeal to the U.N., and to Israel's courts. But if they go that route, any violence is going to ruin their claim, not that it is likely to be honored anyway. Maybe they could bbuy it back, a kind of rockets for land deal. Sucks to have to buy what you should already own, but it is probably their best chance.

Personally, I'd want to salt the entire thing and tell them to choke on it, but that would be a huge waste of resources and probably go over less well than rocket attacks.

Andoran

thejeff wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?
Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.
Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.

Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.

When they don't just shoot them, that is.

Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?
I'm sure they would rather not have been killed. Other than that, there's not a lot of difference.
Do you think the kidnapped victims were given due process? Were they given a phone call you think? Allowed access to a lawyer? Given bail?

Are Palestinians arrested by Israel all given due process, phone calls, lawyers and bail?

That's why I made the comparison. When Hamas does it, it's kidnapping. When Israel does it, it's arresting. But it's the same thing.

If you have evidence they aren't being given basic human rights after being arrested I would like to see it.

Andoran

BigNorseWolf wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and much harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.
Which so far have all been military targets, which the palastinians have every justification for doing.

In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.

Eta: If the food isn't being given away it is no different than any other contraband. Claiming that it is okay to smuggle it because it is just food implies it is being done as a humanitarian thing, not a for proffit which is used to buy weapons thing. To me, at least.

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