Shaa'ghi's page

Mooncursed Barbarian
Archaeologist Bard
Eldritch Raider Rogue
Horticulturist Alchemist
The spell removing archetypes for Paladin and Ranger

That's the other issue I tend to see for all of the classes right now, is that everyone is comparing them based on "Can it out DPR it's parent classes?" While DPR matters, I think the first thing we need to ask is "Would it be fun to play this?" Now for some, if you can't throw up the numbers so to speak, it won't be fun. I think utility is equality as important and contributes just as much, but then that's how I play.

That being said, maybe we could do some Alternate Abilities for Channel Energy? Something like team wide buffs or debuffs? For example:

Aura of Fervor: By expending 1 use of their Channel Energy a War Priest fills his allies with divine furor, granting all allies in 30ft a +1 Holy bonus to attack. (The flip of this would be Aura of Despair and offer a debuff to enemies if you channel negative)

A tanky battlefield buffer/debuffer would also be a good niche for the Warpriest to fill, although it can be filled reasonably well by the Cleric and certain Oracles already. But tuning the class to excel in that role seems like it would also be a good idea to strive for. Adding some auras and Channel abilities seems like a good way to take it.

Would people be mad at me if I attempted to hijack this thread and turn it into the official "DIVINE MAGUS NICHE" thread?

For real though, I see it as the best way of avoiding repetition of the cleric and the inquisitor.

I'd rather not delve into that territory in this thread as I feel the Warpriest doesn't quite fit as divine Magus-esque class. At least not as the focus for the base class, an archetype seems like a good fit though.

I really like the idea of replacing Blessings with something more akin to Bloodlines. I think the problem with that lies in how to implement it. I doubt anyone wants to create Diety specific bloodlines, because that would then make it really difficult for non-aligned War Priests to really exist. However, it would definately allow the design team to show how they expect a War Priest of Erastil or Desna to work.

I was actually thinking a Bloodline-esque Blessing for each domain, and the Warpriest receives 2 based on deity or GM approval. I feel that with the removal of spell-casting that two of these wouldn't be overpowered.

I think removing spellcasting is a move in the wrong directoon entirely, but I do think that a lot of the issues would be solved by full BaB, and possibly postponing a few things until later upfront.

I also dont think that it should be healing focused at all, so I think that spontanious casting should be purely about wrath of the divine spells, and drop Channel Energy for Alignment Channel or Channeling Smite.

My thinking is that removing spellcasting opens up a lot of design space since the Warpriest won't have to worry about stepping on the toes of the other divine classes. And a divine character that can balance spell-casting and combat can already be achieved with every other divine casting class. Having the Warpriest compete for that niche seems unwise.

As for Channel Energy I love the idea of using it for Alignment Channel, Channel Smite, and all the other Channling feats and variants, which is why I would keep it. However I'm not opposed at all to tying the type of Channeling the Warpriest receives to the Blessings they choose.

After looking over the class in the playtest document and skimming through the class discussion sticky, it seems to me that the biggest issue with the class is where it fits when compared to the other divine casters. Specifically in relation to the balance between it's martial power, and casting ability.

When compared to a Paladin the Warpriest has looser alignment restrictions, a few extra feats, more spell-casting ability, & both armor and weapon bonds as opposed to one. However the Warpriest loses the full BAB progression, the option for a mount, the Smite class feature, enhanced saves, Lay on Hands, & Auras.

When compared to a Cleric the Warpriest gains a few extra feats, more baked in martial ability as opposed to the optional approach the Cleric has, and the weapon and armor enhancement. However the Cleric has full spell-casting, a better Channel Energy progression, & more options when choosing a playstyle.

When compared to an Inquisitor the Warpriest gains access to combat bonus feats as opposed to teamwork feats, Channel energy, Spontaneous casting, & armor bonds and and a more versatile weapon bond. However the Inquisitor has Judgements, more skill points and features that enhance skills, the Stalwart class feature, and more out of combat utility.

(I'm going to skip the Oracle for this analysis due to the amount of variance between mysteries, and revelations within those mysteries).

Between these three comparisons it's hard to pin down a place where a Warpriest would excel. I'm not saying this class is underpowered, just that because of the strengths and versatility of the other divine casters the Warpriest falls a little short and ends up playing second fiddle. I have some ideas on how to remedy this situation. They are a little unorthodox but I think they would give the class a clear niche and a place to excel while avoiding stepping on the toes of the other divine classes.

1. Increase the Warpriest's BAB progression to full. This solidly puts it in a place where it can compete with the Paladin and other martial classes in combat. Although by doing this the number of bonus feats the Warpriest gets may have to be adjusted for balance.

2. Remove spell-casting and spontaneous casting. In exchange for the combat boost something had to be given-up, and I think spell casting is the best candidate. Yes the spells add a lot of versatility to the class, but the also hold it back when attempting to balance the Warpriest against other divine casters. Now while spell-casting is gone, I strongly believe it should keep its access to Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon, and Sacred Armor.

3. Expand on the Blessings mechanic. There are a few ways this could be expanded, but my thought is to move Blessings closer to Bloodlines or Mysteries. Having a longer and more gradual progression, with both active and passive abilities tied to the Blessings chosen by the Warpriest.

With these changes the Warpriest is a full BAB, martial combatant; they call upon the power of their deity not not through spells, but channeling energy to their surrounding allies, opponents, weapons, and armor. And when things look dire they receive divine Blessings from their god/dess to ensure victory.

Would anyone care to share their thoughts on any of the above?

This may be of use to you:Voodoo Mike's Race Building Guide

The thread is pretty old, Pre-APG even. but some of the thought on pricing I feel is really spot on. The many alternate racial traits that have been released would need to be considered, but this could be used as a very solid stepping stone.

Monkey familiar/Baboon animal companion was what I was thinking.

I've had the same idea for a while too. I've been wanting to try it out with a druid/witch gestalt character but haven't had the opportunity to do so yet.

If you're thinking about ranged combat as a halfling and Halflings of Golarion is available to you, consider using a sling. I know the negative to STR hurts but the feats make it a very viable and interesting option.

It seems like a flavorful option to your standard wiz/fighter/AA. I could see spell strike stacking with the melee attack you get in stabbing shot.

I've actually played around with a Magus/Arcane Archer build but have yet to actually play it. The build looks great on paper. You essentially can become an arcane switch hitter. It looks like the best time to start taking AA is at about level 9, to get an extra arcana. If you want to go the switch hitter route it will be pretty feat intensive, but in my opinion the concept is interesting enough to warrant it. There also may be a more ranged focused archetype for the Magus in one of the Ultimate books, which would definitely lend itself to a ranged focused Magus/AA.

Kobold Quarterly #15 has a druid archetype that's probably exactly what you're looking for. It's called a Bestial Druid. They lose all spell casting and gain some natural weapons and other animal abilities, all the while keeping Wild shape intact. I believe the PDF copy is only a few bucks, it's definitely worth a look.

Shaa'ghi wrote:

brassbaboon wrote:

Woodswalk is simply the ability to move through a forest canopy at the same speed as if walking on level ground. It requires a forest canopy to be present. Outside of a forest with overlapping tree branches, it's not usable at all.

This sounds very similar to a feat in 3.5 called Brachiation, which allowed a character to move though trees at their land speed. At one point I had a Scout/Ranger/Forrest Reeve that could do that a 60ft a round. Definitely useful, but only in certain areas, I'd price it at about 4 points.

It's similar in that it allows you to move through the trees, but the idea is not that the drylf is brachiating, the idea is that dryads naturally flow through the branches and foliage of forest canopies as if they were moving on land, or perhaps swimming through water. They actually move through branches and leaves, not around, over or under them.

But from a mechanical movement perspective, yes, similar.

I understand the flavor aspect you're going for; I just realized the movement mechanics would be similar to the feat I mentioned.

There are actually two slightly different versions of it, one in Complete Adventurer and one in Masters of the Wild. My personal opinion is that the one in MotW is more balanced, it requires more skill ranks prereqs, minimum STR, can't hold items in either hand, or wear heavier than medium armor.

Woodswalk is simply the ability to move through a forest canopy at the same speed as if walking on level ground. It requires a forest canopy to be present. Outside of a forest with overlapping tree branches, it's not usable at all.

This sounds very similar to a feat in 3.5 called Brachiation, which allowed a character to move though trees at their land speed. At one point I had a Scout/Ranger/Forrest Reeve that could do that a 60ft a round. Definitely useful, but only in certain areas, I'd price it at about 4 points.

Gnome Stew, a DMing blog, has a pdf file to make your own paper minis, which you can find here: Print and fold minis

I find they work best when printed on heavier paper like card-stock.

If your interested I recall a bunch of prestige classes from the 3.x Draconomicon. There was one tailored for each of the core classes. That might be a good place to start.

Threeshades wrote:

I don't know if it has been mentioned but how about adding a third possibility for startingt Ability modifiers, that is +2 to one fixed ability? This is less advantageous than having +2 to an ability of the players choice and less than having +2 to two abilites and -2 to one.

If you would try to arrange that with buying the penalties and bonuses you would end up paying two points for it, but i think you should rather gain 2 extra points to spend from it.

This is effectively the same as the Human races' +2 to their choice of stat so I don't think any extra points should be gained from it. A human with +2 CON is equivalent to a Genericfolk with +2 CON. It's not fair to penalize the human with +2 to con just because he had the option at creation to put it into another stat.

But choosing a free feat is better than gaining a fixed one according to the point system. A feat choice is 8pts while a fixed feat is 4pts.

Go to this thread: PF Race Building Guide . It's a great starting point to see if your races are balanced with the core races, and gives you an idea of exactly where you need to trim.

When you run an e6 game, how many high level people do you have?

What does it take to be in the top level? Are all Spartans 5th or 6th level? Do you have to be 5th or 6th to be considered an expert? Are 6th level people as rare as 20th level people in a normal game?

Is the king 6th, his son 5th and the guard 4th, or is everyone 6th -- and highly experienced 6th to boot?

While this article talks specifically about D&D, and is also very long, I think it provides some spectacular insight, and may help answer some of your questions.

D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations

If it were my game, I'd offer to let them add an extra class skill of their choice, maybe 2. There's also one alternate trait from the APG that only replaces Multitalented. It lets you choose a arcane class and use spell trigger and completion items as 1 level higher.

Or maybe Centaur Armor costs more than armor for other Medium creatures. Maybe x1.5 the cost?

Horse-like build: Centaurs have the lower body of a horse, which increases their base land speed to 50 feet. As quadrupeds, they can carry 1 and 1/2 times as much as a biped (see Core Rulebook page 170). 2 points.

Losing 10 feet of land speed (ie 20 feet) is a -4 drawback. I really doubt land speed +20 is only worth +2 especially since it also gives them a higher carrying capacity.

I'm trying to get out of the same old grove of light melee characters, looking for a fun alternative without going full caster. Target level is 12, but I don't want a character to dead-end shortly after.

On a brainstorm came up with summoner (9) Arcane Archer (3)..
Pros: 3/4 BAB arcane caster class that can wear light armor and cast spells combined with a prestige class that continues spell abilities
Cons: summoners are very much tied to their summons, and capping a summon at level 9 (or 3+ levels below actual level) will hurt it, possibly bringing it from overpowered to no better than a ranger companion, plus summoner spells aren't that great combined with an AA.

But the idea is there, light physical combat combined with light magic, and maybe a step away from the norm.

Any thoughts on that particular class combo, or any other odd builds?

Actually an idea I've been mulling over for a few weeks is a Magus/Arcane Archer. you can go into AA after Magus 8 (personally I'd stay in an extra level for the boost to the Arcane pool and an extra Arcana). With you can deliver touch spells through a melee weapon, and area spells with your bow, enhance either weapon with Arcane pool, cast in medium armor, plus pick up a few feats, like focused shot for example. It leaves you with a really interesting Arcane Switch-hitter build.

I'd like to see a mage killer. A fighter that is designed to work w/out magic, gains bonuses against magic wielding foes (ala Occult Slayer prc) and gains the ability to resist magic. Perhaps gains additional abilities by destroying magical items (ala Forsaker prc).

I actually made a Barbarian who did this rather well. The Superstitious and Witch-hunter rage powers along with Elemental Fury work very well in combination. He has bonus to resist spells while raging, does extra damage to opponents with spells or SLA's, and gains extra rounds of rage if he takes elemental damage equal or greater than his Barbarian level. Although I don't know of anything that would help with the destroying magic items part.

I have a couple of questions. now perhaps it was adresed elsewhere.

When a Magus uses a point from his spell pool to enchant his weapon, it gets a +1 enhancment bonus. Would this stack with a masterwork weapon? or a +1 magic weapon?

How long does the ehancement last? is it like a Judgement where it lasts for the combat?

thanks

The enhancement does in fact stack.

These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5

and the ability lasts for 1 minute

Are there any other prestige classes that work well with Magus? I'll be happy to do further comparisons.

I'd love to see a comparison similar to this with Magus and Arcane Archer

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and comments. I definitely have a concrete direction to take this idea in.

I'll be working on rough draft mechanics in the next few weeks (after finals anyway). Hopefully I'll post something just after New Years.

Feel free to continue to post more ideas here, I'll check back periodically to see what could be useful during development.

Thanks Again

Shaa'ghi wrote:

For a while now I've been unhappy with the current system of magic in D&D and Pathfinder. I'm not really a fan of the "cast and forget" Vancian system (...) is to break casters into three categories based on the source of their powers: Ambient casters, Inherent casters, and Bestowed casters.

Interesting concept...

On a separate note, Vancian magic has three main characteristics:

3 Vancian Characteristics:

1) Magic is packaged in "spells", which the caster cannot modify at whim (A fireball cannot be turned into a cone of fire or an iceball for example)

2) Casters have finite magic "capacitors" which once emptied, cannot be used to perform magic until "refilled". In D&D, this has taken the form of spell slots.

3) Spells are complicated and therefore cannot be cast in complex situations (such as combat). In order to use spells in such stressful situations, caster must prepare spells in such a way that only the "triggering command" is left out and performed in due time. This is also know as "fire-and-forget" magic. Personally, I think the appellation is not representative of what it is; the spell isn't forgotten at all...

From what I get, your issue mainly concern the 3rd element of Vancian magic, but would you plan to also deconstruct #1 and #2?

'findel

Most of my concern is with the 3rd, but I do want to deconstruct the 1st for Ambient casters. I also want to both differentiate more between Arcane and Divine, as well as accentuate the different sources of magic and make them mechanically unique.

The Goa'uld effectively gains all their class levels and may use all of their abilities. Any of these abilities that are restricted by alignment, however, are unusable if the Goa'uld's alignment differs from the hosts by more than one step.

Theoretically this would allow a player to multi-class a Lawful required class (Paladin, Monk) with a Lawful restricted class (Barbarian)and still use the abilities of both. You may want to reword that.

For inherent classes, a point system. I have seen the point system tried many times, and have yet to see it not become overpowered as they moved up to higher level. And having limits on higher abilities really doesn't help, because they can just use their more powerful lower level abilities over and over again.

I suggest you check out the 3.5 psionicist for an example, this was freqently mentioned as someone who could spend all their PSPs in one battle, and totally take over that battle. I have played a psionicist, and by 12th-13th level, it wasn't one battle I could take over, but numerous, I had a LOT of PSPs.

And the problem with penalizing the inherent caster for spending a lot of point is the one inherent in a point system. They can avoid the penalties by casting a lot of the lower powered spells, and doing it all day long.

I understand your concerns. Although Pathfinder already allows Cantrips and Orisons, the ability to spam low level spells poses the risk of disrupting game balance. There are two solutions that could remedy this situation.

1. Apply a "cooldown" time to spells. This would prevent a caster from launching a low level spell every round, but could also extremely hamper combat ability.

2. Divide the total point pool into 3 categories. Use one for low level spells, say 1st-3rd, one for mid level spells, 4th-6th, and one for high level, 7th-9th. This would prevent a caster from using all their points on low level spells. However, While this will maintain some of the flexibility of a point system combined with some restrictions of spell slots, it does increase book keeping a bit.

I personally think option 2 is a better solution

Not sure using the existing skills is the best idea. Maybe something more akin to Caster level plus Casting Ability bonus. So for a Wizard some thing like CL + Int modifier.

Thank you for all the suggestions, it's reassuring to see others who are interested.

As for the Warlock class I did mean the class from 3.5. One of my close friends loves the class which means it occasionally sneaks into my Pathfinder discussions.

Anyway. I was indeed planning on implementing a fatigue mechanic to limit Ambient casters. I figure after the casting DC reaches a certain number the caster is fatigued for so many rounds. I've also been looking at the Words of Power playtest and think it would be interesting to incorporate to Ambient casters; although instead of a spellslot/point hybrid system, each word adds to a base casting DC.

As for Inherent casters, I think having a point system in place and if X number of points are spent at once then some damage occurs. I think what type of damage should depend on the class. Although a mechanic where after spending X number of points, their total point pool is temporary reduced for Y amount of time, has been another idea I've toyed around with.

The SLA's per day mechanic has caught my eye for Bestowed casters. I like the idea of using that for low level abilities and then sacrificing ability score damage for more powerful abilities

For a while now I've been unhappy with the current system of magic in D&D and Pathfinder. I'm not really a fan of the "cast and forget" Vancian system. I also would really like to see more of a differentiation between Arcane and Divine casters.

To remedy these perceived shortcomings I've been slowly been trying to a system I would prefer. So far it's only in the theory stage; I haven't begun to fiddle with mechanics, but I wanted to post my ideas here for some feedback. Whether others are looking for something similar, think I'm heading in the right direction, or just think it's an interesting idea.

OK. My first idea is to break casters into three categories based on the source of their powers: Ambient casters, Inherent casters, and Bestowed casters.

Ambient casters will and shape power from the world around them. Wizards and Warlocks would fall into this category. I think a skill-based casting mechanic would reflect their abilities well. Maybe spells have a casting DC; failed spells backfire and may cause damage to the caster, but exceed the DC by enough and add special effects.

Inherent casters contain magical power within themselves. Monk and Sorcerer would fit here. I think that a point based system would work well for Inherents. I also think that their casting mechanic should have less risk than Ambients but sacrifice the wide range of abilities.

Bestowed casters receive their power from an agreement with a deity or other power. Obviously this contains Clerics, Paladins, and Druids( I think they fit better here than in Ambient). I haven't been able to think a good idea for a mechanic to reflect this category yet, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Questions? Comments? Words of Encouragement?

I've struggled with this in the past as well. One of the most elegant solutions I've come up with is to place the characters in a specific location(temple, tavern, ship, etc.), let the players determine why their character is there, and then proceed to let all hell break loose. From my experience this really brings a group together, and leads to some interesting character development and interactions.