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4,533 posts. 1 review. No lists. No wishlists.


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I'm glad they aren't! SAD builds remove any sort of tension or relatability for me. I like when my character has incentives to be well-rounded, yannow, like most characters in fantasy.

As a matter of fact, if someone had asked me to design the Monk class, I'd have made something that encourages having at least 12 on every attribute, rather than focusing on a couple of them. Self-perfection and all.

No problem!

And yeah, Unhindering Shield is a totally valid option, the problem about it is that it represents either:

- 1 splash class level

- 2 dead feats (a level for prof, a level for focus, and you only enjoy it at the third feat... 5 levels later after the first investment)

- or there's playing Human and having 2 dead feats only until level 3.

So it's not like it's 100% upside.

@Torbyne and @Derklord:

You both mention PFS-illegal options in Ascetic Style and Unhindering Shield. While absolutely valid, remember that this guide is 100% PFS-oriented so I usually shape my answers towards that. I added Ascetic Style builds because I'd consider remiss not to do that, but at all points clarifying it's not PFS valid. I've honestly thought about removing them from the build list because it detracts from the main point of my guide... which no, it's not "PFS-friendly guide for Monks", it's...

@Perspicacious Wanderer: Invested Regent works with most Monk builds, although obviously ones that need multiple bonus feats don't mix terribly well. For Divine Favor, apart from Fate's Favored, you'll probably want Quicken Spell-Like Ability at 11th level.

..."you don't need cheese to make a viable, fun character".

Any GM allowing QSLA for a PC should reconsider. An extreme amount of exploitable things could be done with that. It's a Monster feat for a reason.

Personally don't agree. Delaying your second Flurry attack to level 15 instead of 11 makes the world of difference. The stunted ki pool, no Flying Kick til late-mid game, the hit to BAB, the hit to saves, the hit to HD for a measly few points of damage and s@#~ty ass Rogue Talents is pretty damn meh.

Style Master helps with the style feat build up but everything else works against it.

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Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:

I rolled stats that I think might make Invested Regent worth it:

STR 17 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 11 WIS 17 CHA 17

Using default Aasimar as the race. I guess take Divine Favor at level 2? Not sure what kind of build Invested Regent would suit best, but I love the idea of it.

For sure! This is an awesome stat line for an Invested Regent.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Woodoodoo wrote:
Any way to make Kyton style work for the Umonk?

To be totally fair... Kyton Style WORKS for UnMonk. Problem is that it has too little upsides compared to other options.

It offers a pretty interesting set of tools:

- Shield AC bonus, which no other monk can get

- Extra vicious damage (and encouragement for the vicious weapon enhancement)

- 2H weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse

Here's how I'd build:

- Half-Orc

- Chain Fighter alternate racial (and probably several other alt racials)

- S14 D15+2 C14 I10 W14 CH8


1. Toughness, (Dodge)

2. (Combat Reflexes)

3. Kyton Style

4. (Barkskin), +1 DEX

5. Weapon Finesse

6. (Mobility), (Furious Defense)

7. Kyton Shield

8. (Up to you)

9. Kyton Cut

10. (Whatever)

11. Power Attack

So the basic conceit is that you have enough HP to use Vicious well enough... and enough AC and Reflex saves to protect you from anyone trying to hit your hit points elsehow. Furious Defense is there for when your +1 vicious weapon is almost going to kill you.

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Chess Pwn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Mark what do you think about a brawler archetype that flips brawler's cunning? Instead of letting you ignore int provide some int synergy instead. Maybe canny defense from the duelist/kensai or some sort of knowledge check synergy, I'm not sure, but I think the idea sounds kinda cool.
It does sound kind of cool. In other brawler news, I can confirm that at a brainstorming meeting for <redacted>, my suggestion of "Brawler <tons of confused looks>; yes I know brawler doesn't match the theme at all, but it hasn't had stuff for a long time" was met with the inclusion of brawler to the outline. Woo!
Just saw this, bless your soul.

Here's some more joy for you.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Remember when I said this? Well the book in question has been announced!!! So excited!



Mark Seifter wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Mark what do you think about a brawler archetype that flips brawler's cunning? Instead of letting you ignore int provide some int synergy instead. Maybe canny defense from the duelist/kensai or some sort of knowledge check synergy, I'm not sure, but I think the idea sounds kinda cool.
It does sound kind of cool. In other brawler news, I can confirm that at a brainstorming meeting for <redacted>, my suggestion of "Brawler <tons of confused looks>; yes I know brawler doesn't match the theme at all, but it hasn't had stuff for a long time" was met with the inclusion of brawler to the outline. Woo!

Just saw this, bless your soul.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:
Answered in FAQ!
FAQ wrote:

Magus, Kensai: Many of the kensai’s abilities refer to “his chosen weapon.” Is that the “single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice” from the Weapon and Armor Proficiency ability? If it isn’t, how do I decide what his chosen weapon actually is?

The chosen weapon does indeed refer to the single martial or exotic melee weapon he chose.

doing the lords work

how about em shadow necromancy, zooks?

Woodoodoo wrote:
Starting a 25 point buy game soon. Invested reagent here I come!

so lucky

James Gibbons wrote:
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet. The Invested Regent specifies that you "Can" replace a bonus feat with a reagent power. Technically you only give up your first bonus feat. You could still choose to never take a single Vested Power and go all regular bonus feats if you so chose. That means you wont miss out on Medusa's Wrath.

Holy s!$@ you are right

Dr. DeThreigh wrote:

Hope this isn't too much of a necro, but it seems the best place to ask.

I really, really like that Scaled Enforcer build, but I'm wondering how you'd distribute skill ranks, since you'd only get three per level. Max intimidate and perception, and then what?

Then you pick the Peerless Courtier feat three times if possible :P

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Monk (Unchained)

2017-03-23 (according to the Google Docs info; comprehensive guide): You are Already Dead: A Guide to the Unchained Monk(*)

(*)Checked the archetypes section, and it does indeed cover recent archetypes.

I update when new archies get released actually.

UnArcaneElection wrote:


2016-02-19 (according to the Google Docs info; comprehensive Brawler guide, and has the funniest picture you probably ever see of a Shield Champion Brawler): Happy Feet, Wombo Combo - A guide to the Brawler

Ok I got to admit I haven't updated the archetype section of this guide in nearly three years oh wait nvm

Gark the Goblin wrote:
Just leaving an open thank you to everyone who puts star ratings (e.g. "acute senses****" in blue) in addition to color coding in their guides. As someone with colorblindness which makes all the oranges, yellows, reds, and greens blur together, it's really really handy!

Did it with my UnMonk guide. Haven't done it with the Brawler guide cause that s!+@ needs work.

The Sideromancer wrote:
Surprised nobody's made a language region joke. Maybe because your opening post clearly references claw.

100% came to this thread to do it.

Any info on Bull-Catcher Style? And Dimensional Step Up?

This book is the largest threat to reaching August for 3 years without any new Brawler archetypes.

I already have the champagne to celebrate the anniversary so Paizo, don't you dare surprise me with any innovative approaches to the Brawler class!

There's only at least 36 archetypes in this book so the odds favor me.

Any Style Feats or other unarmed abilities made to mimic the abilities of monsters?

El guido es updato! Includes Invested Regent and Vested Powers.

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Honestly I'm not too hot on Sanctified Slayer. Judgement is incredible versatile, and in PFS, being versatile is king. Maybe your team will need a tank, so that extra AC will be awesome... maybe you'll need any of the other utilities.

Plus, you need to move action activate it, which compounded with your prebuffing, will slow you down a bit. All in all, not as good as you may think.

I'm also pretty against the Infiltrator archetype, because it loses a ton of important features for things that don't matter too much in PFS.

If you want WIS-to-CHA (which isn't that necessary but it's nice I guess), then just go with any of the applicable Inquisitions. Heresy, Reform ,etc.

If you can take one of the variant Dhampir that takes a DEX penalty, you'd be much better off, but I'm not sure whether other vampire heritages are PFS legal. With a DEX penalty, it's easier to keep a 10 on DEX and simply pick up Heavy Armor Proficiency at level 3 or so when you can afford some full plate.

My personal favorite Inquie archetype is the Cloaked Wolf.

Please list Apsu's Shining Scales. It takes Sacred Fist Warpriests to a whole other level.

A monk can get a really great AC bonus by the following means:

- Not being stingy with WIS

- Barkskin qinggong power

- Bracers of Armor

- Ring of protection

If you tick all of those boxes, then your AC should stay within the 50%-75% chance to be missed.

Teisatsu Vigilante is your bro. Ki pool, ki powers, ninja tricks.

Sacred Fist with the Trickery domain would work but also s~*~ty on skills (personally, I think you can fix any low skill class with a Skilled + Human-Raised Half-Orc to get +2 skills per level).

Iroran-worshipping Sanctified Slayer + Cloaked Wolf Inquisitor would work too, with a fitting domain.

Monkey Goblins do not qualify for Goblin feats. They'd need a "Goblin Blood" feature.

Don't see many useful Eldritch Heritages personally.

Krell44 wrote:

I understand that Archery builds can put out a significant amount of damage, I guess I was just curious as to what, specifically, makes an Inquisitor a good archer. More pointedly, where would the Inquisitor stand in the line with Zen Archer / Ranger / Slayer / Fighter archers?

I'll take this one.

Inquisitors have the following weaknesses:

1. Mediocre BAB.

2. Bad REF saves.

3. Bad CMD.

4. Take a lot of ramp up time (standard action buffs, swift actions for Bane and Judgments.)

Archery as a fighting style also has some weaknesses:

A. Low base damage.

B. Bad critical range.

C. Feat intensive.

Archer Inquisitors ameliorate these problems in their combination:

1. Mediocre BAB is not that important when you get Rapid Shot.

2. Bad CMD is not that important when you are super far away from Grapple/Disarm range.

3. DEX focus reduces REF issues.

4. Ramp up time is less of a matter when you don't have to MOVE into the fray, and can simply buff and start pelting.

A. Inquisitor has a ton of base damage in Judgments and Bane.

B. Inquisitors don't care too much about crits, and have several sources of damage that don't scale with crits anyway (Bane and Flames of the Faithful to name some).

C. Inquisitors don't need to spend feats on anything in particular (good Fort/Will saves and big initiative make Great Fort/Iron Will/Imp. Init less of a matter).

What should I get instead of Eye for Talent?

More or less going for a dynamic that's like a duo between Scrooge McDuck and The Tick.

Mighty Glacier wrote:
If you're not fully invested in the idea of being Angel Summoner, that is. (Remember to call the group's unoptimized martial, "BMX Bandit")

While I love me some Mitchell & Webb, the reason I went with Angel (or Archon) is that I wanted a LN grubby, money-obsessed Summoner with a LG hammy, self-involved paladin of justice Eidolon. So the only other option I'm considering is Archon.

I suppose. If it doesn't, what would you recommend for first feat?

Maybe get Focused Study and get a few Skill Focuses around?

Mighty Glacier wrote:

The Angel subtype gets the short end of the stick: they make poor natural attackers because they only have slam (and wing buffet), instead of all the claws and bites and whatever. So you're encouraged to use manufactured weapons (easier to get the magical enhancements, get iteratives, more base damage, etc.). Too bad angels don't have martial weapon proficiency, so you'll need to waste a feat (e.g. Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)) or 4 evolution points (2 for simple, 2 for martial).

If you're not committed to the Angel subtype, consider the Agathion or Azata subtypes. Agathions do natural attacks well, and Azatas rock with manufactured weapons. Archon is in the same boat with Angel, so no point considering that.

I was thinking that, but Multiattack gives me another attack to compensate for lack of iteratives, and I can use feats/evolution points for other cool stuff for my natural attack, namely Pull/Reach/Magic Attacks/Elemental Attack and stuff like that.

So the point of having weapon proficiency doesn't make much difference until I would get critical feats or something, and even then I would be missing out on Reach/Pull.

Hey all! Never played an UnSummoner myself before, and since I rolled terrible, terrible stats I decided to try one out.

I'm not going for 100% full optimized build, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

UnSummoner himself is Spirit Summoner with the Heavens revelations for some battlefield control. For feats, I went with Extra Evolution. Planning to get crafting feats and Extra Evolution for the foreseeable future, except for maybe a feat in Resilient Eidolon.

Eidolon is an Angel with a single slam attack. I'm using Eye for Talent from Human to give it a +2 boost to STR. Got Improved Nat Armor and Reach. Planning to go for Pull, ASI, and then make it tankier, as we lack a frontline. For feats, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and then no idea.

Any ideas or tips?

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Melkiador wrote:
The ACG had a lot of odd/bad design choices. The warpriest is a mess, requiring swift actions to use almost all of its abilities, while having 4 different resource pools to keep track of. And sacred weapon damage puts them in a weird place where they strongly favor small wacky weapons over the more traditional weapons that most martials use. And the blessings vary wildly in power level with some being almost worthless, while others are borderline OP.

Honestly I could go on about every class in the game like this.

Well, I for one think that they been hitting better design notes lately (save for some egregious examples...), so I'm wondering if there's any good will from Paizo to revisit the design issues of these classes.

technarken wrote:
What if the benefits of Outslug Style (scaling at the same rate as weapon training or studied target) and Outslug Sprint were baked into the brawler as bonus feats at 4th and 10th (Replacing Knockout), Brawler's Flurry worked like the Unchained Monk Flurry (so you COULD take TWF with it if you want), and Maneuver Training was replaced with Bonus Feats that can only be used for Style Feats and/or Combat Maneuver Feats?

Extra 5 foot step baked in would be pretty good.

Maneuver Training needs to go, but not for feats. I think it'd be done with the Martial Flexibility rehaul.

Bump for love.

Revan wrote:
A no way does the Vigilante Identity better. As an Avenger Vigilante, which would be the only one where the comparison makes sense to begin with, the Vigilante gets as many bonus feats, of not more, and most of those actually have additional effects that the Fighter simply cannot mimic, like getting an AC bonus while Power Attacking. It's also pretty laughable to suggest the Rogue is better at the Social Identity.

I mean, sure, if you build a Fighter like s~$%.

Shield of Blades is still a shield bonus and can be matched with AWT: Defensive Weapon Training, the Fighter has several effects the Vigilante cannot easily mimic either (Cut from the Air, Disruptive, Pin Down, AAT: Armored Juggernaut, Poised Bearing), not to mention Weapon and Armor Training boosting accuracy and AC well beyond the norm).

AND Fighter's have d10 HD.

Just wondering if this campaign could support a Vigilante and if Renown (Thrushmoor) might be a good idea.

Yes, here:

- Bard

- Sorcerer

- Eldritch Scion Magus

- Magical Child Vigilante

- (Unchained) Summoner

- Bloodrager

- Skald

- Archmage spirit Mediums are basically arcane casters

Lanitril wrote:
If you top back off to full after that, are you then suddenly immune to the poison already in your system? Gotta admit, there's some weird design in the monk for this reason.

Does the wording say something about this?

It doesn't sound too bad for UnMonks since they can turtle fairly well, and if you can top yourself off if something slides by, then that doesn't sound too bad.

UnMonks aren't immune to poison so they win a bit with this.

Raisse wrote:

The disciple of wholeness's Hone Body and Greater Hone Body class features seem nearly useless. Immunity to disease and poison only when undamaged, despite the leading cause of contracting diseases and poisons being injuries from gross enemies.

Add to this, the unchained monk has to basically pay twice for the Healing Ki ability (gives up the extra attack via ki point as well as the 4th level ki power).

Well, if Healing Ki is swift-action based, then you could easily top yourself off to get the disease/poison disabled, couldn't you?

Could you tell me what other features it gives up?

donato wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Artificial 20 wrote:

Disciple Of Wholeness (Monk)
Can anyone confirm whether it works with UnMonk?
It sure does!

Whelp, glad to hear I can update the guide! Now to wait...

Artificial 20 wrote:

Disciple Of Wholeness (Monk)

Can anyone confirm whether it works with UnMonk?

Red Metal wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Martial Flexibility doesn't work - Mechanics Flaw

It also has extremely awkward interactions. You can get Toughness for 1 minute?
Are there any other weird rule interactions you can think of? Because this complaint falls a little flat given the fact that you can't pick Toughness with Martial Flexibility.

I could have sworn Tness was a combat feat. Whoops.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well put, I can't help but wonder if the Brawler would have been a much better class (both at enabling the fantasy of the class, and mechanically) if it wasn't afflicted with "whatever happened to the ACG during development." A good portion of the classes in that book could use some work/additional support (Bloodrager and Warpriest are probably exceptions).

I think that's why Brawler's Flurry has a 3/4 BAB class progression.

avr wrote:
Having taken a peek yesterday at what a particular brawler can do with their martial flex at 6th level (I stopped at D in the combat feats list), I can see the option paralysis/too much info to check argument clearly. Just nixing it down to fewer feat chains (or wildcard style chain feats like MoMS) would hurt an already not particularly powerful class however. If you were going to do something like that then you'd need to buff the class elsewhere in something like the ways SW described.

I have ideas.

bump cuz i care cuz im a nerd

Chess Pwn wrote:

and the other issue, is levels 5-12, the fighter is playing catch-up. at lv5 with WF and WS using a THW and having iron will and toughness for the HP, and also take AWT for skills, I've now reached the base that the barb starts out with. So I've waited 5 levels, and used 3 combat feats and 2 regular feats, to have the same stats as the barb. at lv 5 I've gotten 3 bonus combat feats and 3 regular feats. So I've used all my class features up to this point to match what the barb had from lv1. He's now received 2 rage powers and other minor abilities that I don't have an answer to.

And the Fighter has +4 AC over the Barbarian (+1 Heavy Armor, +2 not raging, +1 Armor Training) and +1 to fear saves.

Also, I'd rather skip WF and WS and be at -1 attack and -2 damage to the Barb and pick feats that improve my quality of life in non-quantitative ways, like Lunge, Step Up, Combat Reflexes or, more notably, Armored Juggernaut to start off with my DR a whole 4 levels earlier than the Barb, capping off at DR 11/-, which a Barb can only do with 3 Imp. DR rage powers (UnBarb).

Did you see the build? A Slayer is extremely vulnerable in comparison.

Seems to me like you are missing Weapon Focus and Ranged Study if you don't wanna miss out on your major features.

1. I think your build achieves your wants. All that Versatile Trainings should do the trick. You could even tank INT and boost CHA, replace Armed Bravery and Adaptable Training with Improved Bravery and Social Bravery to boost your CHA-based skills. A Human Fighter with 10 INT has 3 skills per level. A Human Fighter with 7 INT has 2 skills per level because you already reached the 1 per level class cap.

2. If you could go NG rather than LG, you could go for Additional Traits in place of Blind-Fight to pick up Blind Zeal for Blind-Fight and Dangerously Curious for UMD class skill.

swoosh wrote:

Your description seems less like fundamental mechanics flaws and more like just... reasons you don't like it. Which is fine, but different. And frankly if you think Flexibility is so fundamentally flawed that seems more like an argument for the class to simply not exist, because that's really its core defining feature.

I was on the fence on classifying it as "Mechanical/Fantasy". The problem with it is that unless you have actual full knowledge of every feat in the book books, you are not able to live out the fantasy and its utility.

The fact that its power level is highly reliant on player knowledge, to me, is a mechanical issue.

If it worked closer to what the Cloaked Wolf Inquisitor does, then I think it would be much more acceptable, if much less powerful.

I feel like rather than giving the Brawler the ability to pick up the Demon Hunter feat spontaneously (and other cooky interactions it has), it should have instead allowed access to a pool of talents. Perhaps it should have been another Deed-based class altogether.

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