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Contract Devil

Sebastian Hirsch's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg. 2,785 posts (3,168 including aliases). 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 32 Pathfinder Society characters. 2 aliases.


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Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

The Seldon Plan wrote:

Getting ready to run this again tonight and I'm trying to figure out the A Encounter mechanics again... Last time went pretty well but I realized I made several mistakes.

** spoiler omitted **

When I ran this at GenCon, it went pretty much without combat so not a lot of this came up. There are folks that are signed up to play it tonight that are very much never interested in taking the diplomatic route (as players), so I'm expecting combat from the beginning.

Yeah I had to read it several times as well to realize that the airship wreckage is not from your own airship, and that you own airship is not damaged in the attack.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I appreciate the sentiment OP, but some groups/players just like to run headfirst into death. If you want to improve their chances try to help you players with character creation and make them aware of missing items etc.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Kevin Willis wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Part H2 shifting passages, as written, unless the group managed those three skill checks, they essentially bash their head against the wall and cannot progress to area H3 at all ... which is unsatisfactory.

Took me a minute to understand but yeah, I guess there are some low-skill combat-optimized groups who wouldn't be able to make the checks at all, particularly if they fail the earlier check to make it an average DC. Especially if they don't routinely pack buffs like heroism. After a couple of fails I would allow them to take 20 if there's a chance that might make it that way (taking 100 minutes for each check and draining away buffs.)

I would give them plenty of slack in coming up with creative methods (anyone got a Robe of Infinite Twine? It keeps getting severed by the shifting passages but if they're smart about marking it they can tell which paths they've been down.) but probably have most bypasses using clever methods take 100 minutes as well. And depending on the method (like spooling twine behind them) they might trigger the trap but still have it count as a success.

I assume that there are plenty of Pathfinder agents and support casters around for the PCs to be able to purchase the required spellcasting services.

That's a reasonable creative method. The passing elven druid sighs and says "aren't they teaching young Pathfinders to always be prepared these days?" as he begins casting find the path. Cost should be 660gp (for that spell) plus 5 prestige for getting the service outside of a settlement.

I wouldn't jump to that as a solution though. Only if the table offers it on their own or seems completely stuck. If they are stuck the GM can say something about how they've seen several other groups of Pathfinders passing them, and that will probably give them the idea of asking for help.

The problem I see here is twofold:

Take 20 is not an option if the roll has a penalty of failure, and in this case a failed skill check inflicts damage (as written even when 2 people roll a 100 and on person rolls a 1, the whole group still gets damaged despite progressing.

Take 20 wrote:

When a character or creature has plenty of time, and is not faced with threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, he/it can take 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, just calculate the result as if the die had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you continue trying until you get it right, and assumes that you will fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).

Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties).

The first check seems only to apply the the check to actually enter the fortress, not the navigation checks after that. After all why would spotting a good entrance help you to navigate on the inside ?


First, the PCs must get inside. As the floating island they’re on approaches, the PCs can attempt a Hard Knowledge (engineering), Perception, or Survival check to identify a prospective breach in the fortress. If at least one PC succeeds, all of the PCs treat the subsequent check or save to scramble to that entrance as one step easier (e.g. Average becomes Easy); failure simply indicates they gain
no advantage.

Second, as their miniature mountain crashes into the side of the for tress, the PCs have only a brief w indow in which to clamber off, ma ke their way toward an entrance, and slip inside. T his requires an Average Acrobatics or Climb check or an Average Reflex save from each PC . A PC who can fly automatica lly succeeds at the check. Failure results in a PC ta king damage from a combination of fa lling from the floating island, being cut by the for tress’s jagged surface, being cr ushed by other approaching debris, or some other ca lamit y. In
Subtier 1–2 , this dea ls 1d6 points of damage to the PC . In
Subtier 3 – 4 this damage increases to 2d6; in Subtier 5– 6
to 4d6; in Subtier 7 – 8 to 6d6; and in Subtier 10 –11 to 9d6.
T he PCs reach the breach regardless of success or failure
unless the damage would render a PC unconscious. A
PC may elect to spend additiona l time on the for tress’s
surface to hea l a fa llen a lly, but doing so requires that
the active PC must succeed at an Easy Acrobatics or
Climb check or an Easy Reflex save or ta ke the damage
while tr y ing to administer aid.

T hird, the PCs must then nav igate the tw isting
passages found w ithin the for tress itself, requiring the
PCs to succeed at three Hard K nowledge (dungeoneering)
or Sur v iva l checks. Due to the claustrophobic nature
of the tunnels, only three creatures can contribute to
these checks (unless, at the GM’s discretion, there’s a
clever way that the PCs are able to travel while sharing
each other’s spaces). Each attempt at one of these checks
represents 5 minutes of nav igation. If any of the PCs fail
the check, the entire group ta kes bludgeoning damage
equa l to the A PL from the shifting wa lls. If the PCs fail
the check by 5 or more, they r un afoul of a trap that
a ffects any of the PCs who contributed to that par ticular
check. Spells such as divination might a llow the PCs
to succeed automatica lly at one of these checks, and
powerf ul div inations such as find the path might a llow
the PCs to by pass it a ltogether.

The wording check or save seems to refference the second part, not the third one.

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I had a 9th level Ranger in my 7-8 table at GenCon who could not make the hard DC.

It's a tough roll for a number of classes, survival is usually not a high priority when you don't have that many skill points, and knowledge dungeoneering is likey to have the same problem. Especially since many scenarios also expect to be proficient in other core areas (perception, diplomacy, acrobatcs, climb etc. )

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Matt Duval wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

...Part H2 shifting passages, as written, unless the group managed those three skill checks, they essentially bash their head against the wall and cannot progress to area H3 at all ... which is unsatisfactory...

I'm sorry to hear there was some frustration. Don't forget that certain divination spells, like divination can help the PCs bypass one or more of the checks. I might reward PCs who use creative methods as well, ** spoiler omitted **

Just finished the second Slot 0 and the same issue came up, this time in tier 7-8 with 6 players. Nothing was quite as hard as tier 10-11. And this was a group of mostly melees with relatively little spell support.

The group had almost the same problem the best bonus was a +7 so we expected quite a lot of automatic damage, fortunately we had a summoner and decided to summon a couple of hound archons and their 14 survival bonus dealt with the issue... but the ability to summon monsters for minutes per level is quite rare.

Regarding creative solution and those particular spells... as a somewhat living fortress animated by the will of a demigod, my reading of the situation didn't expect much room for improvisation when the whole fortress reconfigures around you.

The spells listed are... let's say a bit binary, either they are mostly worthless or force the GM try to invent something on the fly or spoil big parts of the scenario.
Find the path also is a 6th level spell, and even divine casters who have it on their list might not have access to this spell level at that point.
It's certainly good to mention them, but they are spells I would never actually expect players to have ready for such a situation.

Some way to brute force this, or maybe a reduced DC once enough players have reached the puzzle box might have been an option.


This is in relatively stark contrast to solving the puzzle box, where at least one person in the group will have something to contribute, and with the blessing in effect, chances to get at least one success (so the group has contributed something).

Is ok to fail occasionally or to get some sort of negative effect, but I think the puzzle box approach is preferrable.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

We had our first slot 0 yesterday, and while the elemental manifestation thing is still as unclear as ever, we noticed that another part really has the potential for players to stop dead in their tracks.

Part H2 shifting passages, as written, unless the group managed those three skill checks, they essentially bash their head against the wall and cannot progress to area H3 at all ... which is unsatisfactory.

I assume that there are plenty of Pathfinder agents and support casters around for the PCs to be able to purchase the required spellcasting services.

This might actually be a tier issue, in the lower tiers there is at least a decent chance that they group will be able to succeed with a modest Wisdom bonus and a couple of lucky aid another attempts, but in tier 7-8 and 10-11 unless the group actually has someone with a couple of points in survival or knowledge dungeoneering (or plenty of players who give more than a +2 aid another bonus) the check really is impossible.

EDIT: Ideally some sort of upper limit to brute force the issue would be appreciated, not being able to participate until the D1000 is open seems like a relatively bad time.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It says on page 21 that the radiation is a poison effect , so it's probably universal.

you can also avoid it with air bubble or life bubble.

Life Bubble is sufficient and in 10-11 the characters can find a few scrolls, air bubble is insufficient since it does not shield the entire body.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Its worth remembering (and maybe mentioning to your players that rings of spell storing do have a certain downside):


Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot ring; Price 18,000 gp; Weight —
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is the same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action.

For a randomly generated ring, treat it as a scroll to determine what spells are stored in it. If you roll a spell that would put the ring over the three-level limit, ignore that roll; the ring has no more spells in it.

A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing.

The ring magically imparts to the wearer the names of all spells currently stored within it.

Requirements Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Cost 9,000 gp

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I support the proposal.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I think BNW is partly correct, Serpents Ire requires a 4 star GM, as does Through Maelstrom Rift, but that one has another limitation based on number of tables.

EDIT: Also the Through Maelstrom Rift GM discussion.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Mitch Mutrux wrote:
Mark Stratton wrote:
Gary, aside from the technical fact that GMs don't do it exactly as written in the guide, what is the harm to PFS for the way most GMs do it? I am trying to understand the problem you are trying to solve (beyond someone just not following the specific requirement.)

Because if Gen Con is any indication, a good chunk of our player base just doesn't know how to track their purchases or flat out refuse to. Over the past three years I have had players (regular joes and VO's) that don't know how to fill out a chronicle and track purchases. These are people playing high-level characters (and not their first or second characters either, we're talking -6 or -7) and when I check their chronicles at the end, they either don't have them or they haven't filled out a single chronicle and don't have an ITS.

I have actually never seen that, but from what I gathered about the convention scene, there are players who only ever play PFS at big conventions. That really doesn't happen in my area, either someone becomes a regular player and thus has the benefit of other players showing him the ropes... or he usually does not play any PFS at all after that. (I had player who had lost their Chronicle sheet or didn't remember to bring it.. the only chronicle sheet they ever received at last years convention etc. .... but flat our refusing to use an ITS is something I really don't have any experience with).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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I have some experience with the spell, several of my hunters use them for buff trading (Channel the Gift for a Heroism usually) and it save me from buying a wand of heroism.

A wand of channel the gift is pretty damn cost effective though, and it allows a character (or a group) to invest money to save on spell slots, which could result in plenty of unused spell slots at the end of the day.

I agree with Andrew though, after seeing too many improved familiars with wands (usually ill omen) and considering that you can get access to an improved familiar without levels in a spellcasting class, I think improved familiars are the problem.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Tineke Bolleman wrote:

We have been giving out rerolls for dressing up as your character at specials. I'll check if I can dig up some pictures.


Ah yes, bad cellphone pics!

Behold us in all our glory

Thank you for the pictures, very interresting^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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Cosplayer and good friend from my region:

Facebook page of RenaCornelia Cosplay .

Might actually convince her to come in cosplay if she isn't the only one ^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Ran the slot 0 recently and made a huge post... but the forum at it ^^

So just the most relevant question first:

If you save the cleric, her followers are supposed to support the final encounter with additional temporary hit points, but I could find no other mention of the word temporary in the scenario that fit the situation.

I might post a full report of the slot 0 later.


Edit: During the slot 0 it became quite apparent, that discovering the snipers direction is quite relevant. After the slot we did some research and found this text on page 563 of the CRB. Total Concealment isn't the same as invisiblity but reasonably close:

CRB wrote:

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character

struck knows the location of the creature that struck him
(until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only
exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater
than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the
general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the
exact location

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

It would be nice, to have both options to cater to different player mobility needs and preferences.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

DM Beckett wrote:

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for removing that annoying Inventory Tracking Sheet as mandatory!!!

Page 39 wrote:

Inventory Tracking Sheet (ITS): You must track

your PC’s purchases over 25 gp on an item tracking
sheet. A sample sheet is located on page 4 4 , or you can
use a sheet of your own design so long as it tracks the
same information.
page 7 wrote:


After you finish an adventure, the GM tracks character
advancement, wealth gained, and Prestige Points earned
and spent. Record any item purchases worth 25 gp or
more on the character’s Inventory Tracking Sheet.
page 15 wrote:

Sometimes a player must have you witness a roll to

verify he successfully scribed a scroll into his spellbook
or trained an animal companion to do a new trick. Write
your initials next to any such entries in this sections to
show that you witnessed the roll and that the PC was
successful in the attempt. Any equipment purchased or
sold (that is more than 25 GP) should be tracked on the
character’s current Inventory Tracking Sheet, denoting
the Character Chronicle # (A) next to the item purchased,
sold, or expended during the course of the scenario or
after its conclusion.

It's mentioned in plenty of other places, and I assume that it's included under character.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Kevin Willis wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Edit: Found another slight error, Kito is listed as having the deadly sniper ability (increased sneak attack damage when within 30 ft) but the ability is actually called deadly range in the archetype.

Hmmm, in the PRD it's called deadly sniper. Where do you see it called "Deadly Range?"

Also bear in mind that this ability will not actually be used unless the PCs take things ludicrously off script.

Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon's first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper's presence.

After his first attack (which is not against a PC) they will all be aware that there is a sniper in the area.

edit: Might have figured it out. Were you looking at the slayer talent deadly range? Deadly Sniper is an ability from his archetype. Kitio is a slayer (sniper) archetype.

No just the last straw for me using a certain site, it's convenient für the search option but this was just once too often that they just changed something for no apparent reason. ayer-archetypes/sniper

And yeah it's relatively unlikely that the PCs will have a chance to spot the sniper before he initiates combat, but considering the level range and the options PCs have at that level its not unthinkable.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

@John thank your for the answers you have already given
@James. Thank you for the prep, it's as always very much appreciated.

Just a note, the Agenda Agent at location D is not actually placed on the map. Considering his tactics and fighting style, I assume that he just hides in the crowd before combat starts and then tries to follow his tactics (flanking, which is pretty necessary considering his build).

Edit: Found another slight error, Kito is listed as having the deadly sniper ability (increased sneak attack damage when within 30 ft) but the ability is actually called deadly range in the archetype.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

If you do volunteer for multi-table events as a new GM, please prep the heck out of them. Nothing is worse for a player than losing time at a multi-table special while the GM frantically reads the scenario, trying to figure out where you're supposed to be now. They're timed, so anything you can do to keep your players on track and ready would be great!


They are really prep heavy and the GMs should be very well prepared since costing your players time has serious consequences.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Gisher wrote:
Just curious. Would Half-Elves have access to Human and Elven racial spells due to Elf Blood?

Depends on the sanctioning, when it comes to spells and archetypes from the ARG, I suspect that the answer is no.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I suspect that this will not be the case any time soon, since it might not be appreciated if PFS starts to give out spoilers to the ends of various adventure paths (and some of the bad endings... would have effects on large parts of the world).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Crossing off used boons seems to be a major issue, but the same is true for only play.

Maybe, if the GM is permitted to add "character used boon X from chronicle Y" to the chronicle sheet for that session, that would serve as a permanent reminder that a particular boon is used up.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

pm sent, for all the good it can do

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James that prep is going to help us a lot, thank you very much.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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I agree with BNW, there is a certain level of trust involved in organized play, and frankly putting those expenses on your chronicle sheet/ITS is the most important step (I also put them on the ITS for tracking purposes).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Congratulations everybody, this compromise should help to keep the older quests relevant, while keeping the new one as a great starting point for new players .

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber

A couple of mid to high-level modules and or PFS scenarios would seem like a good idea to test the waters if there is sufficient interest for more material.

Maybe something about Hao Jin could be an option.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Seems reasonable.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber
Y. Duskwalker wrote:
Actually, I'm asking about a natural weapons warpriest, but I can see where one might assume pounce kitty

The problem is, that both and other things like Eidolons with 10+ attacks are governed by the same rules, if something allows a warpriest to do this, it will also enable the others.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber
Y. Duskwalker wrote:

I could see the allowance for it still counting as magic, if it follows the established ability: ki strike(magic) of monks, which, while not providing an actual +1, still let's them count for magic.

Would this (original question) be worth an faq/revision request? Or is there too much strong opposition to such an option?

You are essentially saying "Can I get a way for my occultist to add bane to his pounce kitty's amulet of mighty fists +1 ? ", so I really don't see it happening, those class abilities (Paladin bond, inquisitor bane and plenty of others) really are not supposed to be applied to several weapons at the same time.

The situation is pretty clear from a rules perspective, amulet of mighty fists (and similar items) is a wondrous item, now a weapon.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber

If you want all your natural weapons to benefit from greater magic fang you need several castings, alternatively spells likestrong jaw are an option.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
I'm more so asking, why is Geb considered lawful evil? Other than eating humans and being undead, I don't see anything that makes them "Evil" other than "Inherently Evil". Am I missing something? Whats preventing me from going there on friendly terms to learn knowledge?

You can do that, but don't come running when a hungry badly trained vampire runt drinks all your blood.

As a backstory item this should work, but.. well there is at least one scenario there so I don't want to spoil it. As a non-undead outsider, you would likely have quite restricted rights though.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Printing the various pages of map pack could be cheaper, I am currently in the process of printing all the map packs and custom maps used for my convention... cutting out 10 sets of a map pack... takes time.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I had the pleasure of printing/laminating etc. each of those giant maps twice for an upcoming event. Fortunately, we will be running this one 2 tables at time, doing those maps twice was more than enough.

I seriously doubt, the map even fits one of the bigger flip mats unless you cut of corners.

Having to prep two separate complicated final encounters.... not a huge fan of it. Mammoths had something similar, but those used flip mats and didn't use such a huge number of enemies.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James Risner wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Otherwise he'll remain the bumbling uncle, which isn't bad, but isn't exactly respectable.
I seem to recall one where the players rescue him from a pit he couldn't get out of on his own?

He was injured at that point, and avoiding escaping and causing a diplomatic issue might also have been a factor.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

A: Core campaign players will apprectiate it.
B: Exchange characters might be able to buy it at a discount, and there are a couple of player boons out there with similar effect.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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VC Dreng, got some very interesting background details in Black Waters and School of Spirits (I have run those scenarios back to back a couple of times). Wounded Wisp might have benefitted a bit from at least a hint of some intentional actions, but that is frankly beside the point.

True Dragons:

I have now played an run this several times, and while the evidence might be a bit understated, Drendle Dreng did kill quite a number of enemy combatants.
Frankly, Drendle Dreng can be quite a quite an impressive character, and I am waiting for the point where players find a bloody drenched Dreng surrounded by the bodies of several reinforcements that were about to catch the PCs (who already had a tough fight on their hands) in a pincer movement.

I really fail to understand the deal with Sheila Heidmarch, yes there is that one questionable line in a scenario centered on a night time walk, but in the very same scenario at least one faction mission shows that she actually cares for the well being of Pathfinder agents.

Maybe she needs a similar standout moment like the Silver Crusade leader received in frankly one of the most memorable scenarios

Season 5 Scenario spoiler:
Weapon in the Rift. Sheila has stats in a on of the earlier volumes of an AP, and it might help the players to fight at her side for once, to see their VC risk her skin to save a couple of agents.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Pretty excellent briefing, will share this with my players.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Wregdar wrote:
Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:
Wregdar wrote:

If I treat it in all ways as a light mace, why can't I by a masterwork tankard?

I can buy a masterwork light mace, I should be able to make a masterwork tankard.

I can buy an Adamantine Light mace, I should be able to buy a adamantine tankard.

I can buy a +1 light mace, I can buy a +1 tankard.

Is there somewhere that the PFS powers that be have ruled on this and I have missed it? I got a really neat barmaid figure with a tankard that is just begging me to make a TWF tankard fighter of Cayden.

The fighting style only influences feats and class abilities that relate to weapon use, and does nothing to change how equipment is purchased. The problem is that a tankard isn't a weapon, and many upgrade options don't have pricing listed for equipment that aren't categorized as armor or weapons.
weapon master's handbook wrote:

Divine Fighting Technique (Combat)

You have trained in the fighting technique of a deity.
Prerequisite: Same alignment as chosen deity.
Benefit: Select a deity. You can use that deity’s fighting
technique and receive any benefit for which you qualify, as
described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time you take this feat, it applies to a new deity’s divine
fighting technique.


Cayden Cailean’s Blade and Tankard
Cayden Cailean is famous for wading into battle with a
tankard in his off hand.
Optional Replacement: A chaotic good fighter or
swashbuckler who worships Cayden Cailean can replace
proficiency with shields or bucklers with the following
initial benefit.
Initial Benefit: You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a
weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate
for your size.
If you engage in two-weapon fighting with
a rapier or light weapon in one hand and a tankard in the
other, you can drink a potion or other liquid from the
tankard or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as


Look the idea is very cute, but the feat only allows you to use a tankard like a weapon.

It does not allow you to buy a non-weapon object, as a masterwork weapon, just like your masterwork tool is not automagically a masterwork weapon as well.

Immagine the feat saying that the user can use a banana as a cestus, or the use can use a slightly used sponge as a shuriken...

The rules why non-weapon objects can't be purchased is not a PFS rule, among other places:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

Even though some types of armor and shields can be

used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of
such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack
rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes
and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement
bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
CRB wrote:

Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to

be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such
objects are not designed for this use, any creature that
uses an improvised weapon in combat is co nsidered to be
nonprof icient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls
made with that object. To determine the size ca tegory and
ap propriate damage for an improvised weapon, co mpare
its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to
f ind a re asonable match. An im provised weapon scores a
threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double da mage on
a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range
i ncrement of 10 feet.

You can buy a mithral mug for the appropriate price.

EDIT: Even while you are wielding it, it does not become a legal target for spells like magic weapon.

Silver Crusade

Very much apprectiated^^ I am currently making prep for a convention in early August, just so I have enough time to prep for my big one (50 Tables over 2 days,the biggest PFS event in Germany... and this year I am responsible for all the material and head organizer. So my free time will be eaten up by running a lot of slot Os etc.

Really not the best situation to participate in a fast-paced combat, so yeah... thank you very much. From your dice rolls you play the character just like me, missing a lot :P

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Sebastion: Monk strikes work with strong Jaw anyway. Their fists are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons, whichever. It's why I like to know if there's a monk or brawler in the party: that way i have TWO animal companions to buff.

Oh I am aware, I play a lot of hunters (5-6 currently) and monks (3-5), I just don't think strong jaw should apply to the temple sword the monk with ascetic style is using.

Benjamin Falk wrote:
Greater magic weapon can easily take care of that.

Caster level scaling means that usually +2 is the best you get for the core of your PFS career, while other character run around with +5 weapons (of more likely furious weapons/weapons enhanced with other effects).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

That comparison might benefit from some work and a couple of good faith builds at various levels. Manufactured weapons have a couple of advantages, and the "augment unarmed strikes" line would need a lot of clarification (does it work with other combat styles of you are a master of many styles for example).

As you mentioned even unchained monks who focus on unarmed strikes (I have several characters who do so, and the weapon option seems flat out better a lot of the time) tend to wear and use weapons (if only to use a reach weapon), and options that let you flurry with other weapons are also in the mix.
This feat creates the unfortunate situation that every new option to improve unarmed strikes would apply here as well (you did limit it to feats though, which is a good start, as written the original feat works with strong jaw ).

I have been aware of the reflective article about the subject since a player asked my about the feat quite some time ago (not a bad article, and not the first designer who was surprised what ended up in print either). Maybe you will get lucky and a "fixed" version gets reprinted somewhere down the line, unfortunately player companions tend not to get reprinted.

Silver Crusade

I try to read the thread but I am currently relatively busy with convention planning, map printing etc. so please don't expect to many post from me.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber
Kevin Willis wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.

You can. Just use a finessable one-handed or light weapon and upgrade your sword normally (using money and the fame rules) to add the Agile enchantment.

Of course if you want to be a Black Blade Magus this doesn't work, but it does for most other archetypes.

I have recently suggested the very same thing to a Magus player (just in case Dervish Dance ever gets a different reprint) apparently not getting a +1 keen weapon asap, kinda ruined his concept. It took a bit of math to convince him that this was not the case.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
dervish dance does not)

it very much does, and there should not be table variation on this. The buckler is strapped to the arm, not carried in the hand. The very same rules that make spellstrike iffy for dervish dance mean that the buckler works.

Well shame on me for not checking the wording, the FAQ in Slashing grace is very specific (I somehow remembered dervish dance having the wording "using a shield".

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

There is a line between using what is already in the scenario and adding something.

If the players go through the market and the scenario already mentions that several traders are selling their goods, it seems fine to add a bit of interaction (like adding a melon trader tries very hard to sell a dozen melons so his kids can have dinner tonight), or just adding a couple of explanatory sentences (like what districts of Absalom you the party is currently going traversing etc. how the streets and people look like)..

Adding something like an NPC (even worse something that only becomes apparent after a roll) can quickly devolve into something that crosses the line.

Work with what is there, and take the opportunities to teach the player a bit about the world, that seems fine (but be careful not to create an expectation that this is usual for most scenarios, since quite often GMs will not have the time for things like this), but avoid adding this to a scenario unless players force your hand by going off script.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber

I agree with BNW, as written it still works with spell combat, since the language is different from slashing grace (of course slashing grace and fencing grace work with a buckler, dervish dance does not).

They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.

The difference beeing is that you use your other hand to cast a spell (effectively two weapon fighting/flurry) but since no weapon is ever held in that hand dervish dance works.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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Seveal good reasons why this is not allowed:

- Once you have a level 12+ character, character death for your low-level chars would become relatively meaningless.

-The new player experience would not improve if they learn that their death is final, but the other reckless guy who in their opinion caused the TPK can get raised.

-Time is a bit of an issue in PFS, since time between scenarios is essentially endless / does not exist.

- You can only play one character at the same time.

This might be something for a player boon though, maybe apply to a number of characters who can invest a certain amount in "resurection insurance".

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Your suggested boon would be so effective that it would make or break entire character concepts, the concept of rarity really does not help in that case.

I could eventually see something like this as the reward for a lot of work, maybe our new Master of Spells could grant her own GM Star rewards card.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I played and ran this recently, if you go into this with a couple of very specialized characters, even if they all heavily focus on diplomacy, the scenario, you can absolutely complete the scenario with two pp.
If you go in with a mixed group of pathfinders (ok the 1 skill point per level character with maxed perception might still have a bad time) chances are very good that most players will be able to contribute something.

The ultimate intrigue rules are pretty good to get the whole group involved, not just give the guy with the social character the spotlight for half an hour.

(That said, a couple of stories I have read so far seem to indicated, that GMs didn't explain it properly/made some mistakes. It can happen, it took me quite a long time to prep.)

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