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Contract Devil

Sebastian Hirsch's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg. 2,709 posts (3,083 including aliases). 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 28 Pathfinder Society characters. 2 aliases.


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Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James Anderson wrote:
Hmm, regarding feather step slippers. If a bard was relying on them for difficult terrain, may they rebuild a first level spells to pick up feather step?

May I suggest reselling the slippers and buying a page of spell knowledge ?

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Swiftbrook wrote:
Interesting. Through all the talk about the Amulet of Mighty Fists, I just noted that they decreased it's cost. So, some of my PCs have a refund coming. :-)

Yeah you are entirely correct, they decreased the cost... not the price. The price has been reduced for several months, from the original price to 4000 for the +1 equivalent amulet.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Checking a box is more kid friendly than asking them to do math.... I wish I was just thinking about kids ^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Selling back my current amulet of natural armor for half price seems frankly pointlessly punitive.

I can't sell back enough to get the brawling enchantment without making the character even less effective.

Already have weapon focus unarmed strike but theres not much point to having it now so I'll probably need to retrain that as well.

Fixing the character is going to take significantly more trouble than its worth.

I'm just pissed, the change makes no sense. I've asked so many times about the justification for it and no one seems able to offer one.

That is because John and other parts of the PFS team did not make that decision, maybe ask in the product thread or in the other thread in the general forum, why the design team made that decision ?

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Hmm wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.
Maybe take a day to realize this is all just a game we play together...
Exactly. It's just a game. The guide says that I can rebuild after dramatic changes. Following the rules given by the dev team on what I can do with this armor I'm not actually able to use an amulet of mighty fists or replace the cost of the armor. So i'm taking the "dramatic changes to a character" rebuild option.

Unless the PFS team clearly gives that rebuild option, a rebuild is unfortunately not an option. AT least not yet, why don'T you post your character build and itemization choices and make a good faith argument, why this warrants a rebuild?

I have a character in a similar situation, but fortunately I have to money to rebuy it as a +4 armor (still more cost effective than the alternative).

Carry:
Carry
Female human alchemist (grenadier) 2/brawler 8 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 23, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 26, Pathfinder RPG Monster Codex)
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +3 shield)
hp 100 (10 HD; 2d8+8d10+38)
Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +10
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee cold iron fighting fan +12/+7 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . cold iron fighting fan flurry of blows +10/+10/+5/+5 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . dagger +12/+7 (1d4+4/19-20) or
. . longspear +12/+7 (1d8+6/×3) or
. . unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d10+7/19-20) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d10+7/19-20)
Ranged +1 darkwood composite longbow +12/+7 (1d8+5/×3) or
. . bomb +12 (1d6+3 Fire) or
. . shuriken flurry of blows +5/+5/+0/+0 (1d2+4) or
. . shuriken +7/+2 (1d2+4)
Special Attacks bomb 5/day (1d6+3 fire, DC 14), brawler's flurry, brawler's strike (magic), close weapon mastery, knockout 1/day (DC 18), maneuver training (grapple +2, sunder +1), martial flexibility 7/day
Alchemist (Grenadier) Extracts Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +5)
. . 1st—enlarge person (DC 14), heightened awareness[ACG], shield
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +15 (+17 grapple, +16 sunder); CMD 29 (31 vs. grapple, 30 vs. sunder)
Feats Additional Traits, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Power Attack, Pummeling Style[ACG], Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Traits clever wordplay, fate's favored, pragmatic activator, quain martial artist
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+7 to jump), Appraise +7, Climb +5, Craft (alchemy) +15 (+17 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +11, Disable Device +4, Escape Artist +6, Heal +5, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +4, Perception +8, Ride +4, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +1, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +5, Use Magic Device +18
Languages Celestial, Common, Polyglot, Thassilonian, Undercommon
SQ alchemical weapon, alchemy (alchemy crafting +2), brawler's cunning, discovery (feral mutagen), martial training, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 20 minutes), precise bombs
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier[UE], mutagen (feral)[APG]; Other Gear +1 brawling mithral chain shirt, +2 mithral breastplate, +2 mithral light steel quickdraw shield[APG], +1 darkwood composite longbow (+4 Str), cold iron fighting fan[UC], dagger, longspear, shuriken (20), dusty rose prism ioun stone, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, cracked magenta prism ioun stone, cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, lucky horseshoe[OA], ring of protection +1, wayfinder[ISWG], alchemist's lab, backpack, bandolier[UE], bandolier[UE], bedroll, belt pouch, belt pouch, fishhook, flint and steel, folding shovel[UE], formula book[UE], hemp rope (50 ft.), masterwork backpack[APG], mug/tankard, powder[APG] (5), scroll case, scroll case, sewing needle, signal whistle, smoked goggles[APG], spell component pouch, string or twine[APG], thread (50 ft.), torch (10), trail rations (5), trail rations (7), waterskin, waterskin, whetstone, 27 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Bomb 1d6+3 (5/day, DC 14) (Su) - 0/5
Dagger - 0/1
Feral Mutagen: +4 STR, -2 INT, +2 Nat AC - 0/1
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) - 0/1
Knockout (1/day, DC 18) (Ex) - 0/1
Lucky horseshoe (1/day) - 0/1
Martial Flexibility (swift action, 7/day) (Ex) - 0/7
Shuriken - 0/20
Torch - 0/10
Trail rations - 0/5
Trail rations - 0/7
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemical Weapon (Move Action) (Su) Add the effects of an alchemical liquid or powder to weapon.
Alchemy +2 (Su) +2 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 1d6+3 (5/day, DC 14) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 1d6+3 fire damage.
Brawler's Cunning (Ex) Count as Int 13 for the purpose of combat feat pre-requisites.
Brawler's Flurry +7/+7/+2/+2 (Ex) Can make full attack & gain two-wep fighting, but only with unarmed strike, close, or monk wep.
Brawler's Strike (Ex) Unarmed strikes overcome DR as various things.
Close Weapon Mastery (Ex) Weapons of the close group deal dam as unarmed strike at -4 levels.
Feral Mutagen (Su) Mutagens grant claw and bite attacks, and a bonus to intimidate.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Knockout (1/day, DC 18) (Ex) Declare before attack, if hit then foe is unconscious 1d6 rds (Fort neg), resave each rd.
Maneuver Training
Martial Flexibility (swift action, 7/day) (Ex) As a Swift action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Martial Training (Ex) Brawler levels count as fighter/monk levels for feat/item pre-reqs and effects.
Mutagen (DC 14) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 20 minutes.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Bombs (Ex) Select Int mod squares to not be affected by splash effects.
Pummeling Style Total damage from all unarmed attacks before appplying DR.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Asking to widen the resell options when it comes to brawling armor to include neck slot items seems reasonable.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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Paul Jackson wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I think I'll be investing in Hats of Disguise because they are awesome.

Watches around warily for a nerfbat

The Greater Hat Of Disguise is even more awesone. And from a sufficiently obscure source that it will never get errata'd

I really find the mindset of "it's from an obscure source so I am errata immune" troublesome, and we learned from Ultimate Intrigue, that Paizo is willing to reprint.

Not that the hat seems be a problem...

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Durable arrows can help ^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Neat^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Auke Teeninga wrote:

I think it's safe to define wearing as:

1. Only using the associated magic item slot for that item.
2. Not having anyone else wear the item in between.

That definition would still allow a character to wear several versions of the same item in a given 24 hour period... so maybe add that the character can't use another magic item in that slot in the required timeframe.
My definition of "that item" is singular, but indeed you could read that wrong.

Somehow people tend to read things in the most favorable way ^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Auke Teeninga wrote:

I think it's safe to define wearing as:

1. Only using the associated magic item slot for that item.
2. Not having anyone else wear the item in between.

That definition would still allow a character to wear several versions of the same item in a given 24 hour period... so maybe add that the character can't use another magic item in that slot in the required timeframe.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Very nice ^^ I really appreciate the chance to track most of not all of my wands and arrows on one page. I will share this with my players, thank you very much.

Silver Crusade

+2 seems like a fair suggestion for a strength based brawler...I had the chance to invest a lot of time in my calculations since I play something like this in PFS... here is the current unfixed version (also includes Jingasa)

Carry:

Carry
Female human alchemist (grenadier) 2/brawler 8 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 23, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 26, Pathfinder RPG Monster Codex)
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +3 shield)
hp 100 (10 HD; 2d8+8d10+38)
Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +10
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee cold iron fighting fan +12/+7 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . cold iron fighting fan flurry of blows +10/+10/+5/+5 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . dagger +12/+7 (1d4+4/19-20) or
. . longspear +12/+7 (1d8+6/×3) or
. . unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d10+7/19-20) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d10+7/19-20)
Ranged +1 darkwood composite longbow +12/+7 (1d8+5/×3) or
. . bomb +12 (1d6+3 Fire) or
. . shuriken flurry of blows +5/+5/+0/+0 (1d2+4) or
. . shuriken +7/+2 (1d2+4)
Special Attacks bomb 5/day (1d6+3 fire, DC 14), brawler's flurry, brawler's strike (magic), close weapon mastery, knockout 1/day (DC 18), maneuver training (grapple +2, sunder +1), martial flexibility 7/day
Alchemist (Grenadier) Extracts Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +5)
. . 1st—enlarge person (DC 14), heightened awareness[ACG], shield
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +15 (+17 grapple, +16 sunder); CMD 29 (31 vs. grapple, 30 vs. sunder)
Feats Additional Traits, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Power Attack, Pummeling Style[ACG], Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Traits clever wordplay, fate's favored, pragmatic activator, quain martial artist
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+7 to jump), Appraise +7, Climb +5, Craft (alchemy) +15 (+17 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +11, Disable Device +4, Escape Artist +6, Heal +5, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +4, Perception +8, Ride +4, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +1, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +5, Use Magic Device +18
Languages Celestial, Common, Polyglot, Thassilonian, Undercommon
SQ alchemical weapon, alchemy (alchemy crafting +2), brawler's cunning, discovery (feral mutagen), martial training, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 20 minutes), precise bombs
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier[UE], mutagen (feral)[APG]; Other Gear +1 brawling mithral chain shirt, +2 mithral breastplate, +2 mithral light steel quickdraw shield[APG], +1 darkwood composite longbow (+4 Str), cold iron fighting fan[UC], dagger, longspear, shuriken (20), dusty rose prism ioun stone, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, cracked magenta prism ioun stone, cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, lucky horseshoe[OA], ring of protection +1, wayfinder[ISWG], alchemist's lab, backpack, bandolier[UE], bandolier[UE], bedroll, belt pouch, belt pouch, fishhook, flint and steel, folding shovel[UE], formula book[UE], hemp rope (50 ft.), masterwork backpack[APG], mug/tankard, powder[APG] (5), scroll case, scroll case, sewing needle, signal whistle, smoked goggles[APG], spell component pouch, string or twine[APG], thread (50 ft.), torch (10), trail rations (5), trail rations (7), waterskin, waterskin, whetstone, 27 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Bomb 1d6+3 (5/day, DC 14) (Su) - 0/5
Dagger - 0/1
Feral Mutagen: +4 STR, -2 INT, +2 Nat AC - 0/1
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) - 0/1
Knockout (1/day, DC 18) (Ex) - 0/1
Lucky horseshoe (1/day) - 0/1
Martial Flexibility (swift action, 7/day) (Ex) - 0/7
Shuriken - 0/20
Torch - 0/10
Trail rations - 0/5
Trail rations - 0/7
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemical Weapon (Move Action) (Su) Add the effects of an alchemical liquid or powder to weapon.
Alchemy +2 (Su) +2 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 1d6+3 (5/day, DC 14) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 1d6+3 fire damage.
Brawler's Cunning (Ex) Count as Int 13 for the purpose of combat feat pre-requisites.
Brawler's Flurry +7/+7/+2/+2 (Ex) Can make full attack & gain two-wep fighting, but only with unarmed strike, close, or monk wep.
Brawler's Strike (Ex) Unarmed strikes overcome DR as various things.
Close Weapon Mastery (Ex) Weapons of the close group deal dam as unarmed strike at -4 levels.
Feral Mutagen (Su) Mutagens grant claw and bite attacks, and a bonus to intimidate.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Knockout (1/day, DC 18) (Ex) Declare before attack, if hit then foe is unconscious 1d6 rds (Fort neg), resave each rd.
Maneuver Training
Martial Flexibility (swift action, 7/day) (Ex) As a Swift action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Martial Training (Ex) Brawler levels count as fighter/monk levels for feat/item pre-reqs and effects.
Mutagen (DC 14) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 20 minutes.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Bombs (Ex) Select Int mod squares to not be affected by splash effects.
Pummeling Style Total damage from all unarmed attacks before appplying DR.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

wakedown wrote:

I've leveled up over 200 levels of PCs and have avoided the temptation of a jingasa, so will also agree it wasn't mandatory (some of this being Core, so clearly not mandatory).

The change to the jingasa does have me wondering what change may be in store for Fate's Favored when the eventual Ultimate Campaign 2nd printing comes around (which I'd guess is soon-ish?).

I would not be so sure about that one, it is a very GM centric book and the PDF was included in the recent humble bundle (honest increasing the luck bonus to attack and damage rolls would likely be fine).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Kurald Galain wrote:

The designers should realize that often the best way to fix an item is to change the price.

Do you feel the Jingasa is overpowered or overused? Fine, change its price to 8000 gp or 12000 gp. Don't change an item that protects you from crits into an item that doesn't protect you from crits.

I think I have to sell the Jingasa on 5-6 characters now, and bluntly while I am not thrilled and would have preferred a different solution, at least that gives me the option to try a couple of other head slot items (the Jingasa really was such a survivability staple that it seemed mandatory, I have a character who owns two of them...).

I can safely say that even at 12000 every character above level 7 would have rebought the item.

If you want to defend yourself against critical hits there are some options :

BUFFERING CAP wrote:

BUFFERING CAP

Price2,000 gp; Aura faint conjuration; CL 1st; Weight 1 lb.
This cloth hat is floppy and shapeless. It offers its wearer an unusual amount of protection against particularly devastating blows. Once per day when struck by a critical hit, the wearer can spend an immediate action to convert the bonus damage of the critical hit into nonlethal damage. The cap has no effect if the wearer is immune to nonlethal damage.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 1,000 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, shield
Fortification: wrote:

Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Fortification Type Chance for Normal Damage Base Price Modifier
Light 25% +1 bonus
Moderate 50% +3 bonus
Heavy 75% +5 bonus
Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, limited wish or miracle; Price varies (see above).

Someone said wrote:

Shield Specialization (Combat)

You have mastered the use of one type of shield.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected shield, Shield Focus, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: Choose one type of shield (buckler, light, heavy, or tower shield). With the selected shield, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class against critical hit confirmation rolls. In addition, you may add your base shield bonus (including the bonus from Shield Focus but not including enhancement bonuses) to your CMD.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of shield.

Silver Crusade

Moving into position and attacking blue.

Bow: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (11) + 6 = 171d8 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 9

slightly optimistic

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I favor removal.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I have a couple of issues/knee jerk reactions:

:
When is this even an option?
There is a pretty large gray area, when it comes to certain buffs, and how they can benefit other characters as well prayer. In this case it would be unclear, how much if anything could be reimbursed by the party. This is something the GM would have to deal with... not a fan on that front. If we do this, we need relatively firm rules when this can apply and when it can't. Situations like me using my scroll of restoration on the party bard to remove 4 negative levels, that's a pretty clear-cut example (and just happened to me). Other cases are a bit more complicated, I guess single target effects could be one way to limit it.

Does this need to have a threshold?
Should we only bother with spells/items that cost 300 GP or more, or do we really want to deal with the scroll of remove fear?

Will this affect preparation?
I am not certain, that with this rule players will have more consumables with them. Sometimes having only one scroll of restoration in the party (since the other players can just reimburse should they need it) can be really dangerous and lead to a TPK.

Will this create more resentment and expectations?
No idea really, in theory, this can already happen, when you play with a new group and you are expected to chip in for when players die (for added salt, die because of stupidity), in some cases this is a lose-lose situation, either you chip in and resent them or you don't and suddenly you are that guy.
It hasn't happened to me yet, I have played with characters that "didn't pull their weight" but it usually works out fine. Of course in some situations, first aid gloves are an option (and I personally really like using them, my -1 already had to buy her second set)^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Typically for GameDays we organize, we have [nearly]all the pregens printed and laminated. It can be problematic for a few in the Occult series because they take three pages, so we tend to ignore those. The player uses a wet erase pen on the laminate and then returns the copy when the session is over. Sure this is a bit expensive initially, but pays for itself in the long run assuming you organize regular games.

for conventions, we bring a printer for HQ, use the laminated ones like a "menu" and print the selected pregen on demand. That way we don't need to guess which one/s the player wants and don't run out of something. Certainly saves on ink/toner.

Yeah wet erase pens work amazingly on laminated tables, it somehow really helps new player to scribble on them.

Since my fellow VL Benjamin Falk suggested an affordable laminating device, I ended up printing several sets of double sided pregens for my region. Totally worth it in the long run, since you usually never have to replace them (and it is easier to remove the typical gamer food stains).

EDIT: There is really no shame in holding back various pregens, if you as the GM don't have a firm grip of the rules involved since they don't come up regularly in your region (firearms, various psychic classes) or hold them back when you know, that that pregen is going to have a really bad time in the scenario (fire kineticist where everything is resistant or immune etc.).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Volunteering to run cold, while not ideal, deserves a congratulation in any case ^^ Well done.

Silver Crusade

These are way to many moving, shifting, disgusting enemies and they attack my current and future customer base. Extermination seems is the logical answer.

"Careful dwarf, I am shooting over your shoulder... don't worry I haven't hit anyone with this trick for more than 107 days. Statistically, you are perfectly save."

Using her trusty bow and the training she has received from the church or Erastil (deadeye bowman allows her to ignore the cover granted by a single ally) she attacks goblin (yellow), if Oskar has already taken down that goblin, she will attack goblin (blue) instead.

Bow attack: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (8) + 6 = 141d8 + 3 ⇒ (1) + 3 = 4

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A separate thread cover this issue would have been an alternative that would not force people to read two pages of mostly unrelated posts.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James Risner wrote:
So it seems this is a non-issue for the majority of us?

Well, worst case scenario, your monk/druid either needs to roll relatively well on Use magic device (or have someone else do it) or buy a couple of potions, just in case. Even the iconic hunter uses potions of mage armor.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I got a swarmbane clasp out of that boon ^^ Someone was very grateful for services rendered.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
GM Woran wrote:
Oskar Dragenaev wrote:
I'll post tonight. I'm on Jury duty and I've gotten a case. :-\
There are many differences between Europe and the USA, and this is one of the things I find incredibly weird.
That we trust 12 people too dumb to get out of jury duty over a trained professional lawyer?

Pretty much, in Germany we sometimes (in really serious cases) have 2 "Schöffen", normal people who have as much to say regarding the verdict as the judge.. it is usually seen as a way to keep to population involved with the process. It is a complicated Position, and likely not as easy to fix as convincing one of 12 (especially since the "Schöffen" can apparently talk with the Judge at length.

EDIT: Of course the for most people the topic of jury duty is mostly portrayed by popular media, most people don't seem to to have first hand experience (sind IIRC you have to be on a voter list, and apparently in the US not everyone is).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James Risner wrote:
Paul Jackson wrote:

At level 6 gets attacks at +16/16/11 doing d3+15. So can easily do 50 odd pts of damage on a full attack unbuffed.

Has a base AC of 25 or so at level 6.

Compare that to a Druid doing 6d8+16 on 3 attacks just one level more (7th) and you find the d3 hurts when the druid has the same number of attacks and deals 4 times your minimum on the dice (1d3 vs 6d8). Their minimum is more than your maximum. 66 damage minimum on a full attack unbuffed with 156 maximum.

** spoiler omitted **

FAQ wrote:

Wild armor and other transforming armor: When I use a wild armor and gain the armor’s benefits, what restrictions, if any, apply to me? In general, when I transform with a polymorph effect and some of my gear melds into the form, what restrictions do I have for melding with large amounts of heavy gear? What about other types of transforming armor?

If you were in medium or heavy load from encumbrance before transforming, you continue to take those penalties in your melded form. Otherwise, ignore the weight of melded items and calculate your encumbrance in your polymorphed form entirely based on non-melded items. When wearing melded armor and shields, if you gain no benefit from the melded armor, you still count as wearing an armor of that type, but you do not suffer its armor check penalty, movement speed reduction, or arcane spell failure chance. If you do gain any benefits (as with the wild property), then you do suffer the armor check penalty, movement speed reduction, and arcane spell failure chance. This also applies to all other situations where you or an armor transform: you always count as wearing an armor of that type, and if you gain any benefit at all from the armor (such as mistmail), you apply the armor check penalty, movement speed reduction, and arcane spell failure chance.

Wild armor or not an unchained monk can't wear armor and flurry.

I also have to point out that you are large, which quite often has serious downsides, either you are the only party member who can stand in front (or stand in front of you... so you have to deal with cover) or in the worst case, you will have to squeeze.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I can recall at least one formula book and one spellbook from scenarios in this season alone.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Gary Bush wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Maybe this can become a new GM Boon! After completing it, the GM can now cast Windy Escape!

(Note, I said GM, not a character of the GM)

A burrito might be able to accomplish the same, with less printing involved ^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

technarken wrote:
Stay tuned for me proposing that PFS ban/nerf Adamantine weapons. I mean, even characters not built to capitalize on them can use them for great utility purposes, and I find ignoring most hardnesses for just +3000 gp cost is underpriced if not overpowered.

Good idea... ^^

No, but it seems fair to say that most martial who have a primary melee weapon tend to invest in an adamantine version (along the cold iron and silver versions) but that's usually the only expensive material I see.

My paladin recently had the pleasure of fighting an enemy with the ability to create walls of stone... at will. I had to deal with a lot of walls, and my adamantine weapon... was critical.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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James Risner wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Generic Figher

Elf fighter 5
AC 31
Melee +1 rapier +10 (1d6+4/18-20)

Our versions of generic are a little different. I'd go with Tower Shield and Bastard Sword.

How about a slightly optimized build:
Human Fighter 5 (Tower Shield Specialist)
17,965 gp spent (AoNA+1, RoP+1, CoP+1, +2 HKPlate, +2 DTShield, +1 bastard sword)
Dodge, EWP, WF/WS, DotS trait, Covering Shield, SF, PA.
The Bastard Sword would be +10 1d10+12 (Needs 8 to hit CR 5 AC 18)

** spoiler omitted **...

Nice Fighter, I assume that the dex variant would catch up with a little bit more money, since there are a couple of cheaper upgrades left, but yeah that is some impressive AC.

Burning an action at the start of combat can be unpleasant (though I usually view it as a good investment compared to a single attack) but with so many charges, the ring allows the user to activate it just in case.. which isn't great.

My usual metric to view these items is usually in the context of specific builds that take advantage of them (you might call that worst case scenarios) and yeah in the case of many dex based characters (mostly monks, and other natural attack fighters), the ring is at that price and with that many charges.. is clearly a no-brainer. The item is so good, that not taking it seems like intentionally crippling yourself.

That's usually a sign that something went wrong at some point.

(since the multiclass abomination has a fighter level DotS would also be an option).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James Risner wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

3 times per day for 6000-8000 would make the item much more reasonable. For the current price, it is an attractive option for a lot of classes and cheap enough to buy, just in case. For those classes that can really benefit, it is severely underpriced (but my suggested changes would help a lot.

Another reason why this ring is so unpleasant is that you can buy it relatively early, and push your AC into the area where only nat 20s will hit you... which in theory is ok for a tank with combat expertise and maybe with a shield... but characters with the ring really don't have a decreased offense... offense just gets better.

I think 6000-8000 for 3 times a day, would be fine. I don't think any character that would buy this item, would change their mind for an extra 2000 to 4000 gp.

Your other point is void. A generic fighter with full plate and dark wood tower shield can spent less money for more AC than any character hoping to gain AC. You simply can't match 20,000 gp spent by a fighter with 20,000 gp spent on a songbird character to get more Ac than the fighter. Your touch Ac will be higher but not normal Ac.

I think, that making activating this item a choice (if you only have 3 charges, chances are that you will waste a charge) and the item is so expensive, that you can't just buy two, would already help a lot.

Okay made an elf fighter in mithral full plate just to compare, thx to the mithral this AC can get even higher once you afford the upgrades.:

Movie plot spoiler:
Generic Figher
Elf fighter 5
Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +2
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 31, touch 16, flat-footed 26 (+10 armor, +1 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +4 shield)
hp 44 (5d10+10)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +4 (+1 vs. fear); +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 rapier +10 (1d6+4/18-20)
Special Attacks weapon training (light blades +1)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 23
Feats Dodge, Iron Will, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Skills Perception +2; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Common, Elven
SQ armor training 1, elven magic
Other Gear +1 mithral full plate, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 rapier, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades

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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

To compare my build from earlier with 20000 GP:

Movie plot spoiler:
Unnamed Hero
Halfling fighter (unarmed fighter) 1/monk (unchained) 1/paladin (iroran paladin) 2/swashbuckler (mouser) 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, 125, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 48, Pathfinder Unchained 14)
LG Tiny humanoid (halfling)
Init +8; Senses Perception +10
Aura aura of law
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 26, flat-footed 16 (+1 deflection, +10 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +2 size, +2 Wis)
hp 45 (5d10+11)
Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +8; +2 vs. fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee unarmed strike +15/+15 (1d3+8) or
. . bite +15 (1d3+12)
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows (unchained), panache (2), personal trial
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 4, Dex 27, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +11; CMD 22
Feats Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+7 to jump), Perception +10, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +24
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ confident defense +2, lay on hands 3/day (1d6), sense perfection, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of incredible dexterity +2, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of seven lovely colors, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura of Law (Su) The paladin has an Aura of Law with power equal to her class level.
Confident Defense +2 When lightly armored with no shield add Cha to AC.
Fearless +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Flight (40 feet, Average) You can fly!
Flurry of Blows (Unchained) (Ex) As full-rd action, gain extra attacks with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 3/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Personal Trial (1/day) (Su) +1 insight bonus to hit, damage, saves, and AC vs. target.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sense Perfection (Su) At will, you can detect if a creature has a ki pool.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (2/day, DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having

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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

With mage armor they have the same AC (yeah it's the old monk problem, mage armor is so good, that wands or potions of mage armor are a staple). while offense and saves are better for the multiclass abomination. A pure monk would have access to barkskin, which would also boost the AC.

The part of the problem seems to be, that the ring is relatively cheap.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Someone said wrote:


FEATHERSCALE CLOAK
(GOZREH)PRICE
4,000 GP
SLOT shoulders CL 5th WEIGHT 1 lb.
AURA faint abjuration and transmutation
This heavy linen cloak has a fish-scale pattern
that darkens toward the bottom and white
feathers on the shoulders. Once per day, the
wearer can use beast shape I, but only to
transform into a bird or fish. In addition, the
wearer can use hide from animals (affecting
only the wearer) once per day. The wearer
gains a +5 competence bonus on Swim checks.
Once per day, the wearer can use feather fall.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 2,000 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape I, feather fall, hide from animals

Just for reference, quoting the cloak.

It only uses beast shape I so you could become an eagle once per day for five minutes. While you get 3 natural attacks, you only get small (which for some characters will be an advantage) and you get a lower bonus to dexterity but not the penalty to strength.

For some characters, this item will perform better however, some builds and class features where you want to be significantly smaller than your enemy will prefer the songbird.

Using with a couple of once per day powers the item is pretty nice, not sure how much I would value the hide from animals (I literally haven't seen this spell used, and in PFS I don't recall a lot of encounters where the group faces animals and has time to cast this (and even then in only affects you).
Of course, it uses a more valuable slot (shoulder) than the ring. And I don't have a single character over level 3 without a cloak of resistance (of course that might just be my bias).

The ring allows the character to become smaller, resulting in a higher AC from dexterity and size and can be used seven times per day, for 10 minutes each... which really is a big part of the problem. A character could presumably activate it just in case (when the metagaming sense starts tingling).

EDIT: Magic item pricing is hard, and it becomes difficult when you add various abilities together... staffs are a perfect example. The designers take the time to craft thematically fitting staffs, but I rarely see them in PFS, since many players view them as overpriced/include spells that they don't want.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Actually, if it was just a fly 3 times per day item, it would work perfectly fine with druids. The boots are a bit weird though, especially since they lists concentration checks and I am not sure how they are intended to interact with polymorph effects.

They more or less shut off and can't be used when you polymorph.

Quote:
"The item is so good/underpriced, that it becomes an attractive buy, even for classes who normally can't use them properly"

THAT is a much better argument.

The thing is this

1) is only a great tactic when everyone makes the investment, not very likely in PFS.

2) Would actually let another character use their stealth/disguise/ mad skillz... which would be a good thing.

3) in pfs spending 7.5 k and both your ring slots for something like this is pretty unlikely at levels where it really matters. Fighting types NEED gear in the main 6, and this isn't it. A scroll and UMD or hiring a spellcaster to baleful polymorph would be a far more economical option.

The item has problems. Obviously, the ability to activate it 7 times per day is a lot, and it is quite cheap.

The item does have downsides (which can be covered by other party members) but while you spend money to overcome some of them (the ring of eloquence seems like the obvious choice) the advantages are pretty good for many characters (dex based, and spellcasters) for the right build it is just that good.

I am not that worried about druids getting the ability to become songbirds and perform similar to wildshape, but the price really is very low compared to the druidic vestments. However, in this case, a class that can already access a similar ability (wild shape) get's access to such an effect. For other classes and builds, the effect will be more pronounced.

If your build is based on dex and melee attacks, chances are good, that the ring would be a straight upgrade for you. Of course for the full benefit, you will want to access mage armorin one way or another.
I have a level 5 melee hunter (well I have 5 hunters) and even though with 18 STR and 14 DEX I am really strength based... the ring would even be an attractive option for that character (the fact, that I could use tough attacks makes this surprisingly viable) even without actually using certain tricks to get more natural attacks in bird shape. The fact that the ring is a command activate item even means, that I could hold a touch spell (or with frostbite several charges of a touch spell).

It may not be an ideal option, but considering that this would allow me to take a round to transform (maybe before combat), and then hit the enemy with a bite, deliver a frostbite to make him fatigued and unless my enemy succeeds on a reflex save entangle him with vine strike. That attack would deal 1d3+4 + 1d6 physical + 1d6+5 nonlethal frost damage. Not bad for a backup option.. actually pretty good especially compared to my MW composite longbow.

The price and uses per day really seem to be the problem, you can activate it often enough that, that you could afford to activate it just in case there will be combat at the next location.

2-3 times per day for 6000-8000 would make the item much more reasonable. For the current price, it is an attractive option for a lot of classes and cheap enough to buy, just in case. For those classes that can really benefit, it is severely underpriced (but my suggested changes would help a lot.

Another reason why this ring is so unpleasant is that you can buy it relatively early, and push your AC into the area where only nat 20s will hit you... which in theory is ok for a tank with combat expertise and maybe with a shield... but characters with the ring really don't have a decreased offense... offense just gets better.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Kalindlara wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but what if they just clarified that you can't make unarmed strikes under the ring's effects?

That would be the point where feral combat training becomes relevant again, or as BNW mentioned, there are ways to get additional attacks.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


If I wasn't so annoyed by the various builds that abuse the item, I would even consider it for my hunter (who can get beastspeak, and might be able to get more natural weapons in bird form... ), but yeah, this is the current situation. The item can be perfectly fine for a lot of characters, but in the "right" hands, it severely underpriced and should be adressed. Of course your experiences might differ.

Boots of fly work a lot better for a swashbuckler than a druid. Should the swashbuckler have to pay more?

Actually, if it was just a fly 3 times per day item, it would work perfectly fine with druids. The boots are a bit weird though, especially since they lists concentration checks and I am not sure how they are intended to interact with polymorph effects.

Just like peals of power, some items are useless for some classes and great for others. So perhaps I could rephrase it like this:

"The item is so good/underpriced, that it becomes an attractive buy, even for classes who normally can't use them properly"

Sneaking the Paladin in full plate and tower shield into the chelish embassy becomes easier with somethings like this, and there should be plenty of chances for the ring to be worthy of the current cost - the mental immage of a flying lay on hands paladinbird is quite cute though.

Whithout the ring of eloquence you are limited though, but adding both or those items together still seems too cheap for me, even for just the occasional use. If you don't have to deal with components (like some classes) it becomes quite an attractive option even for spellcasters.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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BigNorseWolf wrote:


In order to make the bluebird useful, you have to take other more expensive options. Dex based build, amulet of mighty fists, monk, ring of eloquence... doubling the damage output of an option doing 50% damage is not a bug its a feature.

Reversing that argument, the ring just happens to be a perfect item and too cheap upgrade for those characters. Dex based monks are already pretty great (once they can afford the amulet, but that's just how dex to damage works these days), and even the mouser works quite well without the ring.

It's just that the relatively cheap ring makes those options that much better (the AC increase is a pretty relevant part).

Even adding the cost of the ring of eloquence (which is still quite optional, chances are slim that you want to leave your bird form in combat unless the circumstances force you to do so), the effect of the ring (removing the +1 ring of protection price) should be at least 5000-7000 in my opinion.

If I wasn't so annoyed by the various builds that abuse the item, I would even consider it for my hunter (who can get beastspeak, and might be able to get more natural weapons in bird form... ), but yeah, this is the current situation. The item can be perfectly fine for a lot of characters, but in the "right" hands, it severely underpriced and should be adressed. Of course your experiences might differ.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

James Risner wrote:


Care to articulate how it caused issues that a Large Animal Druid, Fox Shape Kitsune or Bat Shape Skinwalker wouldn't cause identical issues?
low.

Skinwalkers are currently a boon only race, and that boon hasn't been largely circulated, but access to bat shape (not unlike fox shape) costs a feat and requires a certain charisma.

The ring allows you to effectively gain the effects of those feats, without forcing characters to play a member of those races. Since you sometimes want/have to use certain abilities (mouser) without the time to change your shape(or you want to retain access to your items) chosing a small race can have certain advantages.

I don't have a lot of experience with skinwalkers, but their change shape power doesn't seem to stack with other polymorph effects (like the bat shape feat) so that would result in potentially 2 points dexterity less and other races with the ring or kitsune with fox shape (but they can't fly).

I am not too familiar with the druid build, but from what I could gather, the druid transforms into a large creature... which often has significant downsides in PFS scenarios, tiny creatures are only rarely penalized in this fashion.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

graypark wrote:

Please forgive my ignorance, as the answer to my question has likely been answered in earlier posts or an FAQ (or is blatantly obvious and I just can't see it), but...

How are players getting more than one attack while in songbird form? The songbird (raven) has one natural attack (a bite)? I don't understand where or how the example characters are getting iterative attacks with that bite.

Monk with flurry of blows using unarmed strikes, this version of the build does not interact with the bite.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The damage is awesome... on a full attack. On paper its amazing. In practice, you wind up moving to an opponent, hitting them once, your party takes him out, you need to move again.
.

If the bird is a pure unchained monk, like in the example he used, he is only two levels away from pummeling charge (pummeling style is a decent idea for this build since mitigates the need to deal with DR).

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Yes, its underpriced. But SO under priced it needs to be banned and effectively kill peoples characters? No.

How many characters don't work without the ring? I assume that most of them still work with reduce person.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Yes, the ring enables crazy multiclass shennanigans... that are pretty much the same as the other multiclass monstrocity shennanigans we see.

Like the sample build I posted, unless you invest in feral combat training (which currently seems to be a moot point) the ring just makes you better, at what you do.

But okay, the ring doesn't need to be banned, not unlike the seriously underpriced mask of stone demeanor, increasing the price is a valid option.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Michael Eshleman wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Once combat starts try to get close to your enemy (enter his square if possible with AC 26+ and mobility your chances to get hit are slim) but if it isn't possible, wait for your enemy to attack you, so you can use:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): wrote:
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

After the mouser uses Underfoot Assault, why doesn't the person who the mouser now occupies the same space as simply five foot step away from the mouser? Underfoot Assault is an immediate action, so the mouser can't use it again for one round. Step Up is also an immediate action, so you would be unable to use it.

This is the reason I immediately dismissed the mouser archetype.

If an enemy still have the 5ft step as an option, he can of course take it, but will provoke an attack of opportunity from the mouser:

Underfoot assault wrote:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

So at this point your are trading attacks of opportinity 1 for 1 (since the mouser can just follow with a 5 ft step next round, provoke and still have her immediate action, so the target can't do it again) with someone who will likely have better AC and to hit than you.

And if you have the feats, this is an option:

Someone said wrote:

Stand Still (Combat)

You can stop foes that try to move past you.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes.

Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn. An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement provokes an attack of opportunity.

If course the definition of adjacent become complicated with the mouser archetype, since the feat was never written with such a situation in mind.

So worst case, once the mouser is in your square it becomes very hard to get out, and attacks against other targets are very hard.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Having only seen the ring used by PCs who worship Shelyn, I originally didn't see this item as too much of a problem. But, the more I read it over and look at how the developers have priced other things (and their own building-magic-item rules), the more I wonder about it.

I like the drawback of being unable to dismiss it unless you have a Ring of Eloquence or some other way to speak in bird form, but still, yea.

My idea for a possible fix would be to just stipulate that this item (and IMHO all feats/spells/items/etc. from Inner Sea Gods) can only be used by a worshiper of Shelyn (or the respective deity). That would mean the PC would need to be within one step of her alignment, roleplaying as a follower of Shelyn's ways as mentioned by both Sebastian and BretI (above), etc.

There are a bunch of items in ISG that have potential for abuse or are overpowered, and that could see roleplay elements from the world setting of Golarion being used to help mitigate some "solo the scenario" builds.

Several points in order, if your build works, why would you want to dismiss the effect, chances are pretty good that other characters will heal you.

There are (as has been mentioned) ways to circumvent the speaking thing, cost is usually an issue, and I would argue, that the ring is way to cheap for the effect. So additional cost is somehow discounted indirectly.

I am very much against limiting access to spells and magic items from that book ... at this point. IIRC the feats are already limited, but the book has been PFS legal for quite a long time at this point (and, not the beat the dead horse too much, once arcane casters get access to a spell there is really no sensible reason to limit access based on their deity).

I have a Paladin of Shelyn and while I love playing her, looking back at the scenarios I have played with her, the situations where fighting an enemy was not an option... I really don't remember a situation where being a songbird would have clashed with my code.

---

For casters who want to use the ring (and frankly you could even argue that the ring breaks a couple of non-compete laws with the druid unions) following Shelyn will not really be a problem.

To rephrase my argument, is the ring less broken when it is used in bonekeep (where fighting is pretty much assured) ?

It is effectively a 2000 GP effect, at least increasing the price seems to be a valid option.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Well, at least the speed changes ^^ fly speed is better than base movement speed of a halfling (didn't invest in fly yet, with this build).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Syringe spear does the same thing pretty much

Excluding the whole damage issue ^^

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

pH unbalanced wrote:
nosig wrote:
I've run this a number of time (6 or 7 I think) - it's actually one of my favorite evergreens. I have no idea how it can be run in less than two hours - even skipping the briefing, and the players sidestepping all the encounters they can sneak past. I know I often run long with it... Even with mostly players who have played it before.

My understanding is that if you know the layout you can just skip to the end, without fighting anything but the end boss.

** spoiler omitted **

Seems fishy.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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I also had the pleasure of running a scenario for a player with a build like this, first unbuffed (and without Piranha Strike - apparently there is a discussion of this works without a manufactured weapon but ignoring that for the moment, and excluding traits)

Bird Monk unbuffed:
Birdy
Halfling fighter (unarmed fighter) 1/monk (unchained) 1/paladin (iroran paladin) 2/swashbuckler (mouser) 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, 125, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 48, Pathfinder Unchained 14)
LG Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +11
Aura aura of law
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 22, flat-footed 13 (+1 deflection, +8 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 size, +1 Wis)
hp 45 (5d10+11)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +12/+12 (1d4+6)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache), flurry of blows (unchained), panache (2), personal trial, stunning fist (2/day, DC 13)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 6, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +2; CMD 21
Feats Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+11 to jump), Climb +0, Perception +11, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +18; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Climb, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ confident defense +2, lay on hands 3/day (1d6), sense perfection, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of incredible dexterity +2, ring of seven lovely colors, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Aura of Law (Su) The paladin has an Aura of Law with power equal to her class level.
Confident Defense +2 When lightly armored with no shield add Cha to AC.
Deeds
Fearless +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Flurry of Blows (Unchained) (Ex) As full-rd action, gain extra attacks with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 3/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Personal Trial (1/day) (Su) +1 insight bonus to hit, damage, saves, and AC vs. target.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sense Perfection (Su) At will, you can detect if a creature has a ki pool.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (2/day, DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist Helper This is a dummy ability to add an extra entry for the stunning fist feat in another section of the statblock (since it is shown with a different name in the two places, we can't use sbName).
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having

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AC 22 without using a wand or potion of mage armor or using a potion of reduce (which would be THE alternative to the ring).

Without using piranha strike we are looking at flurry of blows +12/+12 1d4+6 AC 22, Saves Fort +12 Ref +13 Will +7. That's already pretty good.
And please not the character has Snake style so the weapon finesse feat might not be relevant (snake style turns your unarmed strike into a piercing weapon, thus enabling swashbucklers finesse).

Now with the ring activated:

Bird Form:

Birdy
Halfling fighter (unarmed fighter) 1/monk (unchained) 1/paladin (iroran paladin) 2/swashbuckler (mouser) 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, 125, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 48, Pathfinder Unchained 14)
LG Tiny humanoid (halfling)
Init +8; Senses Perception +9
Aura aura of law
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 25, flat-footed 15 (+1 deflection, +10 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +2 size, +1 Wis)
hp 45 (5d10+11)
Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee unarmed strike +15/+15 (1d3+8) or
. . bite +15 (1d3+12)
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows (unchained), panache (2), personal trial
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 4, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +11; CMD 21
Feats Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+7 to jump), Perception +9, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +24
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ confident defense +2, lay on hands 3/day (1d6), sense perfection, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of incredible dexterity +2, ring of seven lovely colors, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura of Law (Su) The paladin has an Aura of Law with power equal to her class level.
Confident Defense +2 When lightly armored with no shield add Cha to AC.
Fearless +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Flight (40 feet, Average) You can fly!
Flurry of Blows (Unchained) (Ex) As full-rd action, gain extra attacks with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 3/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Personal Trial (1/day) (Su) +1 insight bonus to hit, damage, saves, and AC vs. target.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sense Perfection (Su) At will, you can detect if a creature has a ki pool.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (2/day, DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having

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Same stat line without (and remember without easy to get mage armor )

Without using piranha strike we are looking at flurry of blows +15/+15 1d3+8 AC 26, Saves Fort +12 Ref +15 Will +7.

Ok with the basics covered, how does that character work:

If possible go into bird form before combat, it will not be an option before every encounter, but often enough.

Once combat starts try to get close to your enemy (enter his square if possible with AC 26+ and mobility your chances to get hit are slim) but if it isn't possible, wait for your enemy to attack you, so you can use:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): wrote:
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

Once your are in your enemies square, attacking anyone but you because very unattractive, so the enemy has to try to deal with the bird (combat maneuvers might be an option, but the AOO is likely to make this difficult):

Someone said wrote:
While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

The character has a couple of other class features, but the ring is really the factor here (and the ability to fly really helps to avoid enemies, so the bird can attack the casters), and we are talking about an effect that really only costs 2000 GP (or 4000 if you want to buy another ring of protection if it is that important, of course there are other cheapter options to increase your AC first).

I had this character in Faithless and Forgotten III, if he had been buffed all the time, I would have had to roll a 20 on pretty much every attack including any touch attacks (touch AC 25 in bird form).

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

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Lyric the Singing Paladin wrote:
Lyric looks sadly at the pretty ring that's sitting in the Shelynite Temple gift shop window.

You could lobby for a campaign clarification, that says that the effects of the ring end whenever the casters makes a hostile action or casts a spell while using the ring.

Especially considering the paladin code of Shelyn, she really is not in favor of striking first.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Well doesn't that build suffer from the same problem as all the other dex focussed builds ? Until you have your dex to damage online, things aren't great.

With the very real option to use GM credit, the fact that some DEX heavy builds have a harder time until level 4-5 doesn't matter all that much, and most 1-5 aren't that challenging in any case.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

I agree, and frankly the inability to dismiss is something I haven't considered yet.

The items is underpriced even just as a scouting option.

Silver Crusade

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Pie is life, I have started baking them more and more and while I am not sure if meat pie or fruit pie is better both usually get eaten ^^

Of course, I am working on PFS themed pies for events, Zarta is either getting the salted chocolate caramel tart (not exactly sure how I want to apply the dark archive logo to it, maybe with differently coloured chocolate on top) or a dark archive pie with some some decadent filling ( strawberries and other berries, maybe with a touch of chocolate on top).

Of course, my character still needs to be convinced of the importance of pie ^^

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps Subscriber

I agree with Thomas, an ability really has to mention it if it counts as something else for certain effects.

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