The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)
It looks like you are relying on Flanking to realize your Sneak Attack Damage. I like the idea of diversification. Maybe take Dirty Trick Feats that might make your targets Blinded, maybe Deafened, too. Maybe take Improved Feint. If you took the Bounty Hunter Slayer Archetype, you can get something like Quick Dirty Trick at an early level. If you dipped 3 levels in Brawler with the Snakebite Striker Archetype, you get another 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage and you get a special ability to use Improved Feint and Move as part of the same Move Action.
My favorite way to achieve Flanking is to dip a level in Arcanist to take the Dimensional Slide Exploit. It's a 10' Teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented, so you can keep fighting.
Since you are already taking Dodge, Mobility, and Sneak Attack, maybe you should also take Whirlwind Attack, too: you're already in the neighborhood.
I think Dodge and Mobility are must-haves to go with the Panther Style Feat Tree. Panther Style Feats give you Free Action Unarmed Attacks whenever you provoke an attack of opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square. You probably aren't developing this character to do Unarmed Strikes, so maybe just dip 2 levels in Monk, Master of Many Styles, and take Ascetic Style in addition to Panther Style. That will let you apply Panther Style Feats to some other weapon like a Temple Sword. If you then took a 4th level in Snakebite Striker Brawler, you then qualify for the Martial Versatility Feat, which would allow you to use Ascetic Style with a any kind of Sword you want like a Greatsword to take all those Bonus Attacks with. With a character like this, I recommend you get yourself a Crown of Swords, which summons a Spiritual Sword that attacks anyone that hits you.
But you can't do everything.
The tenticle gets going faster but will eventually be out preformed by study. Study also has the advantage of the damage boost and boosting weapon attacks. Tenticle will not stack with grab from other sources polymorph or beastmorph so it is accessible to all alchemy builds but at later levels.
He doesn't have to settle for or the other. He only needs to take 2 levels in Alchemist to be able to get both the KCTF and the Tentacle.
I also don't find the tenticle to be very vampire-y.
It is fair to say that that Vivisctionist with a Tumor and Tentacle is less Gothic and more Lovecraftian, but still a splendid addition to an Investigator Character. And is it really so bad to mix the 2 genres?
The familair is off the table but a protector crab or improved familair is better than the tumor familair imo.
I'm thinking the OP might just get away with a Tumor Familiar, though. My thinking is that it's part of his body, and he's mostly getting it for the Grapple Bonus. The GM might let him have it if he just keeps it as part of his body and pretty much just uses it for the bonus.
Though again a mauler bat the turns into a imp seems much more in line with the character (my imp full attacks with a bardiche against me grappled targest).
My King Crab gives the Grappler a +2 to Grapple. The Tumor Familiar has another advantage that is perhaps particular to my own experience. My GMs historically have always seen Familiars, Animal Companions, Henchmen, Cohorts, and Hirelings as just things they can kill when they doesn't actually want to kill you.
I, to my GM wrote:
You keep killing my animals!
my GM wrote:
Scott, why do you think I keep giving them to you?
A Tumor Familiar seems like a Familiar you can have when you just want the bonus, not the actual Animal, and since the OP's GM doesn't really want Familiars, one that's just sort of part of your body seems like the OP's best bet.
I have always found the vivsectionist a bit overrated. Bombs are a far more powerful class feater than sneak attack, though strength damage is nice. Viv builds do put up good damage numbers but I much prefer versatility.
Sneak Attack Damage does a lot of damage but is situational. There are ways of manipulating the situation so you can do SAD more often. I think Vivisectionist is more in keeping with the Vampire genre than many other Alchemist Archetypes. I almost recommended Tomb Rader Alchemist. But the OP likes Sneak Attack Damage, so I recommended Viv.
The build I suggested gets to nearly 40 to grapple at level ten which is already more than enough to grapple an iron golem (cr13), so any higher I would deam an over investment of resources. The investigator ends up being a great melee character as well as a very solid grappler.
Mine had a Full-Time GMB of +30 at level 9, and I figured out a way to nova it up to +50 for 2 Grapple Checks with 2 rounds of self-buffing: just enough to Grapple and Tie Up a Balor Demon in 1 Round.
If I went alchemist I would build up smoke bombs, echolocation / goz mask, and Viv sneak attacks. That feels pretty vampire-y to me.
Mine was a Half Orc with Scent, Blind Fighting, and an Eversmoking Bottle. She never took enough levels in Alchemist to get Echolocation--about 4. She also took levels in Monk and Cavalier.
I have a level 3 PFS character that is currently mostly an Archer that I will develop into a Grappler. She will take levels in Grenadier Alchemist with the Tentacle and KCTF, and also shoot exploding arrows with Alchemal Weapon and Explosive Missile.
I much prefer versatility.... The investigator ends up being a great melee character as well as a very solid grappler.
I agree about the need to be versatile. If you are going to be a Grappler but not a Tetori, you have to resign yourself to the fact that if you run into a creature with Freedom of Movement, your Grappling is completely useless. With the character I mentioned, I was thinking that Ranger-Archer + Cavalier/Monk Grappler followed by Alchemist to pump up the Grapple Mod and shoot Exploding Arrows would have just the right amount of diversification.
I like the "Bad guy gone Good but is still struggling with the new lifestyle" idea.
I was not previously giving my highest recommendation to Expert Captor because Cavaliers of the Order of the Penitent take a vow to never kill people. But rereading your OP, the OotP actually seems like the perfect thing for a redeemed villain. Expert Captor will let you Tie Up a Grappled, not Pinned opponent and without taking the -10 penalty you usually take. What I was recommending was Equipment Trick, Rope, which only reduces the penalty to -5, but doesn't come with any inconvenient vows. You only need to dip 2 levels in Cavalier. You get a Bonus Feat with the first level, so I recommend Coordinated Maneuver, probably, which gives you another +2 Grapple bonus, and then the 2nd level gives you Expert Captor.
I was also thinking about offering the OP an idea for a Ninja/Arcanist that keeps Stealth while making Ranged Sneak Attacks, then develop Greater Grapple + Expert Captor in that character: being super sneaky then suddenly slipping out of the shadows and taking out 1 victim at a time by either Tying them Up or shooting them.
Aw, shucks. Well, then I recommend the OP be an Alchemist instead of an Investigator. He can take the Vivisectionist Archetype. He'll be a better Grappler and have more Sneak Attack Damage. Those Alchemist Discoveries make Alchemist the fastest class at increasing your Grapple Mod, at least for those 4 levels. He could get away with 2 and just take the Extra Discovery Feat.
Investigators can take Alchemist Discoveries. Grow a Tentacle and get +4 on Grapple Checks. Grow a King Crab Tumor Familiar and get a +2 on Grapple Checks.
I will not be allowed to have a familiar, since the party is already kind of big.
Your GM might allow a Tumor Familiar where another Familiar would be disallowed. A Tumor Familiar is part of your body. Normally, it can detach itself, but you can promise not to. Just tell him you are only getting it for the Grapple Bonus. He might let it go.
You can wear Armor. Wear Armor Spikes. They do an extra 1d6 Damage with every grapple Attack. Poison your Spikes.
You can do your Studied Target Damage against your Grappled Opponent.
Take Pinning Knockout. Double Damage vs. Pinned Opponents, but it has to be nonlethal Damage.
Sap Master Feats might work for doubling your Studied Target Damage, so might the Knockout Artist Feat.
I love the Cavalier Order of the Penitent Ability Expert Captor, but members of the OotP are under a vow to never kill any person. You could take Equipment Trick Rope, which reduces the penalty for Tying Up your opponents from -10 to -5.
The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)
Ryze Kuja wrote:
As wild as the OP build is, as a GM I would consider this to be a serious abuse of the rules (regardless of it's legality/illegality). Remember that any munchkin-level tweaking you can create can also appear in the world. If this was happening in my campaign, I would create 12 of these Songbirds of Doom to come chase your party down :P
A good GM should adapt his adventures to make them challenging to his players. And he should interpret the power levels of the characters the players build as an indicator of the challenge levels they want from their GMs. But one should hesitate to dismiss creative and powerful character builds as being abusive to the rules. Character building is an art. People put a lot of creative energy into their characters, and a good GM should not just stomp on their players' artistic visions.
Saleem Halabi wrote:
My compliments on a clever idea, Saleem.
Keep a Portable Hole filled with water, set it down, Wildshape, jump in, then Ice Armor!
Or, cast Expeditious Excavation (lv 1 Druid Spell), fill the hole with Create Water (Druid Cantrip) or a Decanter of Endless Water, then jump in and Ice Armor.
Yes, Scott, but wouldn't barding just... fall off when he shifted back to his natural form? I thought sublimation of gear only occurred from natural to other form and barding is REALLY hard to put on and... we don't have any arcane spell casters or anyone with a decent UMD. =/
Barding will totally fall off when he shifts back to his natural form. Depending on the form you choose, you might be able to dress yourself, but I'm thinking in terms of somehow acquiring the Swift Girding Spell. That would mean you or someone in your party dipping a level in Magus, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard, or Arcanist.
I'd consider it problematic that your party has no arcane spell caster. Dipping a level would be doing a favor to your party. Even if it's only 1 level, you can at least use Magic Wands.
Not quite what I was looking for, but definitely interesting suggestions. I was hoping for something cheaper than a +3 that would still let him actually USE his armor in wildshape. Is there anything like Called for armor? I didn't see it in the list, but that doesn't always mean anything.
WagnerSika gave you this.
Get a barding fitted for the shape he most often uses.
To that I'll add gain access to the Swift Girding Spell, which will suit you up. It takes a Standard Action to cast. This is my preferred way.
Another way you could go is to no Polymorph into Animals at all. Be a Goliath Druid and turn into Giants. You get to keep your Armor and use your weapons.
Keep Calm and Carrion wrote:
The last time I was in a campaign like this, the situation was that the world was going to be destroyed by a demon lord. The necromancer was our most powerful arcane spell caster. We needed her, so did the Paladin. Like when Buffy the Vampire Slayer accepted Spike the vampire's help starting in the second season.
1Cavalier: Order of the Penitent, Constable, Tactician, Coordinated Maneuvers, Challenge, 2 Feats
This character will Flurry of Blows with her White Hair. When you hit with White Hair, you get a free Grapple Check. When a Witch gets someone Grappled in her White Hair, her opponent is Grappled, but she isn't. If she hits twice with her hair, and successfully Grapples twice, she can use her Expert Captor Ability to Tie Up her opponent.
I know you said Unchained Monk, and there is only 1 level of that out of 4, but the build will not require any more levels in either Cavalier or Witch. You can take the rest in UMonk. As she progresses, she will get better and better at Flurrying and Grappling and can potentially Tie Up multiple opponents in a single round, especially if she does something like take Rapid Grappler and Cleave. If she works in Broken Wing Gambit somehow, she can get attacks of opportunity against opponents as they try to free themselves and Tie Up opponents that way.
How would my allies be able to see if I used an eversmoking bottle?
They couldn't. Unless they could. There are lots of ways to be competent while Blinded. Greater Blindfighting. Scent+Blind Fighting. Tremorsense + Blind Fighting. Blind Fighting is a Feat. Gaining the Scent Ability can be done in a few ways. As a level 2 Spell: Bloodhound and Alter Self to name 2. Half Orcs can gain Scent as a Feat. Catfolk as a Class Ability. Barbarians as a Rage Power.
If someone in your party--it could be you--takes 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, they gain the ability to see through smoke, and give their whole party the ability to see through smoke.
There isn't a limit to how many times you can use an Eversmoking Bottle. It's reusable.
Well, what happens in kung fu movies around the dojo?
Every now and then, some guy comes in to challenge the Sensei.
The PC should be called upon to compete in or send students to compete in tournaments. He should be up against the badguy, heel-dojo and crooked officials who fix fights and bets and hyper-draconian Cheliax officials who enforce rules mercilessly but always seem to not notice obvious signs of cheating under their noses (until the end of the movie when the badguy who bet against the hero loses everything, and the thugs close in on him or her to collect their souls...).
Every now and then, one of his students turns out to be gang-involved, and the PC needs to save his student from a life of crime. A lot of the time, getting kicked out from a gang involves a ceremonial gang beat down, getting "jumped out." In the long run, a severe jumping-out can be good for the ex-gangster, because rivals of his former gang will see his bruises and know he is no longer an important target. If the PC doesn't know this and intervenes in the jump-out, then he, his student, and his whole dojo become targets of every gang...
The sensei's landlord is a Fiend from Hell, and is always trying to ask for services in lieu of money for rent.
Grandlounge is offering a clear and excellent alternative to what I was proposing. Inquisitors have different, but awesome abilities for Teamwork Feats like Amplified Rage.
Another thing that Inquisitors get is the ability to put Bane on 1 of their weapons. My idea was to have lots of (Natural) Attacks and put Sacred Weapon, Rage, and Destruction on all of them. Bane can only be put on 1 weapon, so it might behoove you to use 1 big weapon like a Greatsword or Earthbreaker. There's that other big weapon, what, Excecutioner's Axe or something that's like just for Orcs?
I have an Inquisitor build that uses Thunder and Fang--Earthbreaker and Shield (klar). I like the idea of taking advantage of Inquisitor Teamwork Feat Abilities and taking Broken Wing Gambit to score Attacks of Opportunity and Shield Slam and Greater Bull Rush, and Paired Opportunist to score even more.
Since you want to worship Gorum, there is a Gorum-specific Feat to look at: Spiked Destroyer, which gives you a Swift-Action Armor Spike Attack with every successful Bull Rush. Shield Slam gives you a free Bull Rush with every Shield Bash. Greater Bull Rush gives your allies attacks of opportunity, and Paired Opportunist makes it so whenever any of your allies get attacks of Opportunity, you get one, too. There are great reasons to put Bane on either your Earthbreaker or Klar.
I have an idea. Play a Half Orc Barbarian, and start with a Bite Attack. Take Beat Totem Rage Powers until you get your 2 Claws. Take Sympathetic Rage, so allies of yours Rage when you Rage. Your Full Attack will have 3 Attacks, Claws and Bite, and they will all enjoys your +4 Strength bonus while Raging.
Take levels in Warpriest. Take that Archetype that gives you Tactician and the Bonus Teamwork Feat, Divine or Holy Commander or Tactician or something. Worship Dahak, and take the Blessings of Destruction: +1 Damage on your Claws and Bite. Warpriests can cast spells that remove fatigue like from your Raging, and let you bypass Damage Reduction. You get one of those at level 1: Weapon Against Evil. When you get to level 3 Warpriest, make your Bonus Teamwork Feat Amplified Rage. Now you and your Allies all get another +4 Strength: for them, that's +6. For you, that's +8, +1 Damage for the Minor Blessing of Destruction. Multiplied by all your Natural Attacks. 1 Bite for being a Half Orc; 2 Claws from Barbarian. You will get more.
Take a level in White Haired Witch, and get a Hair Attack in addition to your 2 Claws and 1 Bite. And that will also benefit form your Rage and Blessings.
After your Sacred Weapon Damage gets up to 1d8, take 1 or more levels in Living Monolith. It will let your use Enlarge Person as a Spell-like Ability, bumping up your base damage from your Natural Attacks from 1d8 to 2d6.
Acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord or an Animal Mask, and you can get a Gore Attack to add to your many other Natural Attacks: so far Bite, Hair, Gore, and 2 claws. There are other ways to get even more natural attacks, and I know a way to cascade more Attacks off of the ones you already have. But that's enough to give you an idea of how I would make a Barbarian/Warpriest.
If your character can mix up Level 4 Extracts, I think he can whip up an Extract of Echolocation, which gives you Blindsight. Get an Eversmoking Bottle, and everyone around you will be Blinded, and you will enjoy a 50% Miss Chance. You could also gain Scent with Alter Self and take the Blind Fighting Feat
There is a Goblin Feat, Roll with It, that sort of gives you a Saving Throw vs. Melee hits.
Levels in Living Monolith will give you DR/-, immunity to Bleed, fortification from crits, and auto-stabilize after 0 hp.
I'm thinking Defense in Layers: Miss Chance, high AC, DR, Shield Other Protector Familiar, and maybe gift yourself Infernal Healing Somehow for Fast Healing.
Do you have a familair? If you can get a non tumor familair you can increase your hp by 50%.
There's no harm in asking his GM. And if this is a PFS Character, last I checked, Ultimate Wilderness has not been allowed as an Additional Resource (Has it yet?), so Protector Tumor Familiar is still PFS Legal.
I re-assert my initial advice. I strongly advise you take Multiattack because your Tentacles are Secondary Natural Attacks. I advise against taking Great Cleave with the idea of using it with your big tentacle because even with Multiattack, your Tentacle suffers a -2 to your attack roll, and that is bad for Great Cleave. Whirlwind Attack would work ok, if your willing to pay the high feat tax. The big Tentacle (retracting all your tentacles) makes you a good candidate for Vital Strike Feats. Using your tentacles, since they are already secondary attacks anyway, you might as well use regular weapons, too.
Although honestly, I think your best bet for melee is to go with Wildshaping into a Giant Octopus and taking levels in Warpriest to increase your Tentacle Damage that way. If you take 4 levels in Druid, and take Shaping focus and 5 levels in Warpriest, your Tentacles will do a base 2d6 damage. If you buff yourself with a Strong Jaw Spell, it will go up to 4d6. Every one of those Tentacles also gets a free Grapple Attack via the Grab Ability. If you take Hamatula Strike, your Bite will too. You might dip a level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack, too that also has a sort of Grab Ability and also benefit from Constrict. If you dipped into Barbarian, you might get a St Bonus and get lesser Fiend Totem and get a Gore Attack. If you haven't started playing yet, starting with a level in Barbarian gives you a Hit Point kick. But that presupposes you want to focus on melee.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I take it back. It's not a good catch at all. The Kraken Caller's Tentacles are totally just Secondary Natural Attacks.
Druid, Archetypes, Kraken Caller wrote:
The tentacles have a reach of 5 feet regardless of the kraken caller’s size, and the kraken caller can use them as secondary natural attacks
The Universal Monster Rules do say that if a particular Natural Attack is your only Natural Attack, it is primary even if it is normally secondary, but the Kraken Caller Class Description specifically calls their Tentacles out as Secondary Natural Attacks. Specific trumps general.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So you are a Catfolk, and you have Claws and no other Natural Attack, that Catfolk's Claws get +1.5 X ST MOD in Damage as the Catfolk's sole natural attack?
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Ooh, good catch, if all you have is that 1 Tentacle, then it is a primary natural attack, and so Cleave is back on the table, and Multiattack may not be necessary. I forget whether multiple tentacles would count as a single natural attack and therefore be all primary.
Name Violation wrote:
Per the description of the Helm of the Mammoth Lord, the gore attack is not a continuous bonus granted by the helm but rather a physical piece of the physical helm that can be used by the wearer to make Gore Attacks.
Helm of the Mammoth Lord wrote:
This hide helm is set with plates of ivory carved with primitive runes, with a pair of tusks curving down on either side of the wearer’s face for cheek guards. The tusks of the helm provide a gore attack
When you Polymorph from Humaoid form into Animal form, your Helm is absorbed into your new body, and so therefore are the tusks that are part of the Helm, and so, therefore is the Gore Attack.
If you take off the Helm, then Wildshape into a form that can wear a Helm, then put back on the Helm, you are back in the Gore business.
Name Violation wrote:
Diego is right. If you Polymorph into an animal while wearing the Helm', it will absorb into the body. And the it is the HotML itself that has tusks on it that you can use as a Gore Attack. That does mean that if you want to use the HotML while Polymorphed into an Animal, you have to Polymorph first and don the helm after.
I was wrong when I said that HotML was like a magic sword was a false equivalence, though I still don't like the argument.
Diego Rossi wrote:
Do you get to keep your SR if you were wearing a Scarab of Protection and then Polymorphed? If you keep the SR, why shouldn't you keep the Gore Attack?
Certainly, you get to keep your bonus from a Cloak of Resistance or Ring of Protection.
Sounds like a good place for a Haunt. The Betrayal haunt would be nice, considering there was probably confusion and stabbing amongst the dwarves in the temple at some point. That lingering confusion hits all of your players at once and they begin wildly lashing out at each other...
There could be a bunch of Haunts, each one occupying his own sepulture. A whole court of ancient Dwarf-Lord incorporeal undead. They might be interacting with each other. They might be ignoring each other, each occupying his own table like Dealer's Row at some kind of Death Con.
You have got to take Multiattack, reducing your attack penalty from -5 to -2.
You can still regular-Wild Shape into Aquatic Animals, including the Giant Octopus. A Giant Octopus Druizilla character is terrifying.
You could dip into Barbarian, using Rage to give yourself +4 St so a +2 attack and damage on all those Tentacle Attacks.
Since your Natural Attacks are already Secondary, you might as well also use regular weapons, which you can do with no penalty.
Since you can retract your Tentacles to make 1 big tentacle, you might take Vital Strike feats. You might develop an Attack of Opportunity trigger. To attack multiple opponents with a single big weapon, the classic Feat to take is Great Cleave, but I recommend against this because of the Attack Penalty for Secondary Natural Attacks can totally ruin your Cleave. You might be a candidate for Whirlwind Attack, but I'm just brainstorming here.
Still brainstorming, and still silly, but if you dip enough levels in Magus to get Wand Wielder, and use a Wand of True Strike. Then take Power Attack...
In the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms campaigns, iirc, those would be the Ethereal, Astral, and Elemental plane of Air. Tarterus had those worlds next to each other, so you didn't have infinite choice, but you had some choices. Wasn't it Nirvana that had those interlocking gear-worlds? And what would that mean anyway if the Wall' were immobile but the world underneath were explicitly moving? If you were right at the junction of 2 interlocking worlds, you might decapitated or cut in half by a Wall of Force acting like a swinging pendulum blade. If the Wall' stayed motionless while the world turned beneath it, then it could be devastating as it sliced through everything as the turning world brought fodder to its impossibly thin edge!
My goal with this character is to make a combat Tacitcan who always has the right moves for the job
My sense of Pathfinder and the prevailing views on these threads is that that is impossible. The general idea that I've gathered, and the opinion that I've formed is that you have to specialize. You can be good at a couple of things, maybe 3 things. But if you try to make a character that is good at everything, you end up with a character that is good at nothing. On the other hand, a character with aggressive strengths usually has aggressive weaknesses.
So, what are some inexpensive ways to be good at some things?
Get good at long range combat. 2 levels in Ranger: take Precise Shot as your bonus Feat. Get a Wand of Gravity Bow. Assuming you are size Medium to start with, Gravity Bow will make your arrows do 2d6. Take another level in Ranger, and you get the Endurance Feat, allowing you to sleep in Medium Armor. Personally, I obsess about sleeping in armor. As an archer, invest in cold iron arrows, adamantine blanch, and maybe silver blanch, maybe some blunt arrows, maybe mix and match, like blunt silver arrows. That way, you will have the right tool for bypassing all sorts of DR.
Get good at combat vs. single opponents. I really like Grappling: with the Expert Captor Cavalier Order of the Penitent Ability + Greater Grapple, you might Grapple and Tie Up a single opponent in a single round. Plus it is entirely plausible to get a full time grapple mod of +30 by level 9 and pump it up to like +50. If you are fighting multiple opponents, this won't work: one of them can spend a round untying the one you just Tied Up while the rest of them beat on you, which will be all the easier because you grapplers don't carry shields. Also, you will be completely undone by anyone with Freedom of Movement.
I have a character in PFS who is building toward being a good Grappler and a good Archer. She has 2 of those Ranger Levels now and a level in Monk. She will have Greater Grapple at level 7. Then she will take levels in Alchemist with the Grenadier Archetype. She will take a King Crab Tumor Familiar, a Tentacle, and also Explosive Missile. She will be a powerful Grappler and shoot exploding arrows. When she is up against multiple opponents, she shoots them. When she is up against single opponents, she Grapples them. When she is up against opponents with DR, she can do either. When they have Freedom of movement, she shoots them.
Do you want a high damage Full Attack? There's lots of ways to go. Make like a Natural Attack or even a Druidzilla character. Take levels in Barbarian until you have a Bite and Claws or Gore (you can't have both) then take 4 levels in Druid so you have Wild Shape. Take Shaping Focus and Natural Spell. Take a level in White Haired Witch. Take some levels in Warpriest so you can apply your Sacred Weapon Damage to your Natural Attacks. Maybe take 4 levels in Fighter and/or Brawler so you can take Martial Versatility and more efficiently apply your Sacred Weapon Daamage and Weapon Specialization to any and all of your Many Natural Attacks. Turn into a Triceratops and do Gore, Bite, Hair, and 2 Claws. Turn into a Gorilla and get Bite, 2 Slams, 2 Claws, and Hair. Turn into an Allosaurus and get Bite, Gore, Hair, and 2 Claws. Turn into a Giant Octopus and get Gore, Bite, Hair, 2 claws, and 6-8 Tentacles all with Grab and Constrict for like 20 attacks/round. A Druidzilla character is very good at making enemies dissolve and wash away under a hurricane of high-damage hits. Plus, you'll be a spellcaster with multiple utilities such as buffing yourself to bypass Damage Reduction, removing Fatigue from your Barbarian Rages, healing the party, etc.
If I wanted a Natural Attacking Character that stayed in Humanoid form, I might play a Tengu with Claws (and a Bite). Maybe start out with those 3 levels in Ranger and take the rest in Warpriest, replacing the fairly anemic natural attack damage with sacred weapon damage. I might acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord for that Gore Attack, still get that level in White Haired Witch eventually, and maybe dip a level Living Monolith so I can Enlarge Person as a Spell-like Ability. This character is powerful at range and has a devastating Full Attack and has a diverse buffing portfolio.
If you want to stay like a regular person and as a Brawler. I'd recommend you start with 1 or more levels in Barbarian so you get 12 hp at level 1. I like the idea of being a Half Orc and getting Sympathetic Rage and later Amplified Rage, giving yourself a +8 Strength and your allies +6. You might be a good candidate for the Snake Style feats. Snake Style lets you count your Unarmed Strikes as Piercing. Take Hamatula Strike, and all your Piercing strikes win you a free Grapple. Wear Armor Spikes, and all those Grapples do an extra 1d6 Damage (+Bonuses, like that ST you just added +8 to). Then at level 9, you get Snake Fang: whenever anyone attacks you and misses, you get an Attack of Opportunity. Plus, you can have those lovely Grappling abilities I talked about earlier.
Here's a neat trick. Take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype. Acquire an Eversmoking Bottle. An Eversmoking Bottle will Blind everyone within like 100'. Flame Dancers empower themselves and their allies to see through the smoke. So now your whole party is always fighting Blinded opponents.
I have a crazy idea. You want a super-flexible character? You are already talking about Martial Flexibility with your first level in Brawler. Well, if you take a level in Fighter with the Free Style Archetype, you get Martial Flexibility again! Now you have 2 wild card feat slots. If you take 3 levels in Inquisitor, you get a wild card Teamwork Feat Slot and a class ability that lets you use Teamwork Feats as if all your allies had all your Teamwork Feats. So that's like 3 Wild Card Feat slots, and you will have lots of flexibility. I don't know how well it will actually work--I'm just brainstorming--but it sounds like exactly what you are asking for!
I was thinking if you start out as a Half Orc Barbarian, your later multiple attacks from Brawler's Flurry would benefit from +4 Strength. Later take Sympathetic Rage, inspiring your Allies.
I'm a big fan of Grappling.
If you also took levels in Alchemist, you could get some scary abilities that augment your Grappling on top of the Strength Mutagen. But that would change your character path in the opposite direction you want to go in: as a Pit Fighter popping ST Mutagens, you are obviously an athlete that's Juicing and therefore cheating.
I like the Cavalier Order of the Penitent. You can Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned--opponent and without the -10 you normally take. Combined with Greater Grapple, you might Grapple and Tie up an opponent in a single round. You would only need a 2 level dip into Cavalier. That would also mean you are under an oath to never kill any people (perhaps it would be not-so-bad to kill Undead, Fiends, Animals, and Beasts). But if you are a Brawler, fighting Unarmed, that might not be so bad.
Cavaliers get a bonus Teamwork Feat. If you are going with my idea of starting at level 1 as a half orc Barbarian, then Amplified Rage, an extra +4 ST on everybody's Rage, otherwise Coordinated Maneuvers, +2 on all CMBs. Another Teamwork Feat to consider is Broken Wing Gambit: when any of you is attacked, all of you get Attacks of Opportunity. A good character trait to take in that case is Bullied: +1 on all unarmed attacks of opportunity. Another good trait to consider is Indomitable Will: +1 on Will Saves.
You are taking Iron Will anyway. When your Brawler Unarmed Strike Damage gets up to 1d8, consider a level or more in Living Monolith. You grow 1 size bigger, and that gives a significant boost to your Damage and Combat Maneuvers.
Zarius, I don't think Jagael is giving terrible advice: if he's found a way to give 2 Hoof Attacks, there might not be any reason to combine your idea with his and ADD his 2 hooves to your 15!
But Jagael, could you link to Wearbor-Kin? I don't think I found what you are referring to. I found Skinwalker and some Racial Traits.
Zarius, I followed your link. I saw a mention of Aegis. Is that the 3rd Party Psionic Link? One thing to bear in mind is that lots of Pathfinder GMs and all Pathfinder Society GMs don't allow 3rd Party things. The OP should ask his GM, of course, but shouldn't be surprised if Aegis and Synthesist Summoner--banned from PFS for a long time now--are disallowed.
If you can use the Psionic, 3rd Party Aegis Class, maybe you should consider the Armor augment that gives you 2 fully-functional arms with 5 levels in Aegis. Then you can be wielding 4 proper weapons in addition to your tail and tentacles. But if that's the case, maybe your GM might let you play a Kasatha (from the Bestiary) that has 4 arms full-time from the getgo. But if your GM is allowing that, maybe go for it and ask if you can play a Thri Kreen from 3.5. And if you can, maybe the GM will allow 3.5 Feats as well. You could play a Thri Kreen with Master Craftsman, Greater Sunder, Combat Brute, Pushback, Shock Trooper, Improved Trip, and Greater Trip. Master Craftsman, or maybe Ancestral Relic, is to craft yourself 2 Adamantine +1 Gythkas that combine the Shatterspike and 'of the Titans (triple damage vs. inanimate objects, see Maul of the Titans) enchantments. That character will have a DPR in the thousands by level 9.
Another option might be to use the Monstrous Physique Spell and Polymorph into a 4-armed Sahaugin.
Also, why Kitsune? Why not just go with Tengu and start with 2 Claws and a Bite? Save yourself the money you'd spend on a Ring of Ratfangs.
Something else to bear in mind: the tentacles and the tail attacks are all Secondary Natural Attacks that suffer a -5 on the attack roll and only benefit from 1/2 the Strength Bonus. Of course, since so many of your natural attacks are secondary already, there is no reason not to fight with regular weapons, too. Combining regular weapon attacks into your natural attack routine demotes your primary natural attacks to secondary, but they won't demote your secondary natural attacks to tertiary. There's no such thing as a tertiary natural attack. Fight with Bastard Sword and Armor Spikes with a Heavy Shield, and also with lots of tails and tentacles.
Another thing to bear in mind is that your character is getting many of his natural attacks through expensive magic items. In particular the Tentacle Cloak is like 13,000gp. I like the item, but I can easily see never getting around to the purchase of one.
Pizza Lord wrote:
In my last post, I was talking about 2 completely separate things. I think Goemon's first and second sentences are unrelated, and you are mistakenly combining them to create an unintended meaning.
I don't think he houseruled the Wall of Force to screw his players.
But I just re-read Wall of Force: you are right that it is not opaque. It is invisible. Invisible is the opposite of opaque.
Goemon Sasuke wrote:
It just occurred to me that maybe he honestly misremembered the rules. There are old rules that would have allowed him to cast Wall of Force that way.
Casting Wall of Force in an aerial battle sounds kind of cool: an invisible, immovable very hard barrier suddenly appearing in front of the Dragon for him to smash into at his full flying speed? That's cold. Would you give the dragon a chance to avoid the barrier? What would that take: a Spellcraft Check followed by a Fly Check? Like a bug on a windhield!
Goemon Sasuke wrote:
How old is the player? in 1st (and 2nd iirc) edition, a Wall of Force could totally be cast as a sphere or hemisphere, and none of that Hardness 30 20hp/caster level business: If you didn't have a Disintegrate Spell, you weren't going anywhere! And forget about Teleporting: Spells do not pass through in either direction: that was that! You might as well be trying to turn a doorknob right after rubbing ointment into your hands.
I always use to take great pleasure in coming up with a genius plan, and GMs always used to take great pleasure in finding flaws with it, and making it turn out badly, leaving me no choice but to spread wide my wings and deliver my super villain speech.
The Wall of Force trick might work if you had a small character run into a cave with a wide entrance but narrow exit. The party seals the entrance with a Wall of Force as a Readied Action, and everybody runs away with their pockets full of Dragon Treasure, hoping they don't get tracked down. Unless the dragon has Teleport or something....
I suppose if your fellow players found out you were taking Teamwork Feats, there would be a fair chance they would take some with you, since Teamwork Feats can create very powerful effects.
If you are wanting for Martial Weapon Proficiencies, and you are wanting for Teamwork Feats, maybe a dip is the way to go. It only takes 1 dip in Cavalier to get both good weapons and a Teamwork Feat you can share with your whole party (Tactician Class Ability). If both your twins took that level in Cavalier, but each took a Teamwork Feat, that could be interesting, say if 1 of them took Broken Wing Gambit and the other took Paired Opportunist and Greater Trip? Then either would have a lot to offer the party, and they would have even more to offer if they worked together.
Heather 540 wrote:
I don't see any justification in the rules for your not counting as your own ally for this.
I had it in my head that your 2 characters were meant to be played together. If they aren't, BWG doesn't make as much sense.
While I certainly don't want you to sacrifice your roleplaying vision in the name of minmaxing, I don't suppose you'd be disappointed if your characters turned out to be heavy hitters, anyway, would you?
A dip into MOMS Monk could be worth it if you pick the right style to augment your build. I've been fond of Ascetic Style Feats, maybe Ascetic Snake Style. You normally can't use Ascetic Style on your Scimitar: you'd have to do something sneaky like take Ascetic Style for the Temple Sword and then take Martial Versatility for Ascetic Style. Then when you take Snake Style, your Scimitar will do either Slashing or Piercing Damage. When Snake Sidewind, you get to make a 5' Step with every crit you score with your 18-20 Threat Range Scimitar. And when you take Snake Fang, you get an Attack of Opportunity with your Scimitar whenever anybody attacks and misses you.
I was going to say your party doesn't have a blaster-caster and suggest you play a Sorcerer.
But if you want to play a Melee Character, who am I not to tell you to go for it.
I know lots of ways to create monstrously awesome melee characters, and I love multiclassing.
Maybe you can say more about what you want?
Heather 540 wrote:
Nope, both of them would. I think I know what you are thinking:
Broken Wing Gambit wrote:
If that opponent attacks you with this bonus, it provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies who have this feat.
But "your allies" does include you. You count as your own ally. There was an FAQ.
I was just looking at the Wolf Domain. You get benefits toward Flanking, and you get Improved Trip as a Bonus Feat. You are talking about using a Spear. I noticed Spear doesn't have the Trip Weapon Quality. Maybe you should use one that does. Since you want to be a Cleric and maybe support your melee characters more than be one yourself, maybe you should use a Reach Weapon with the Tripping Quality such as the Horsechopper or Whip. Maybe even Throwing Shield. All of these you would have to take a special Feat for as a Cleric.
Horsechopper is 1d10 Slashing, Reach, and Tripping.
The whip doesn't do much damage, but there are Feats you can take that will extend your reach out to like 15'.
The Throwing Shield is actually a Ranged Weapon. A Throwing Shield can be a Quickdraw Throwing Shield, which means that with the Quickdraw Feat, you can draw a new one as a Free Action. You might eventually acquire a Blinkback Belt and instantly retrieve your throwing shield immediately after throwing it.
I am a fan of disposable Tripping Weapons: the advantage of a Tripping weapon is that in the event of a catastrophic Trip Roll that gets yourself Tripped, you can elect, instead, to drop your Tripping weapon. You'll miss that Horsechopper when it's gone though, but you can always pull another whip off your belt, especially if you take that Equipment Trick, Rope Feat, then any length of Rope becomes your whip. Since the Throwing Shield is a Range Weapon, it is by definition a disposable weapon.
Getting Improved Trip doesn't qualify you for Greater Trip all by itself: you still need Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighter. You probably want the Dirty Fighter Feat, which gives you a Bonus for Flanking, and your other Wolf Domain Ability improves your chances of achieving Flanking with your allies. It's a shame to have Flanking abilities without having Sneak Attack Damage, so Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Precise Strike are good Feats to take. Precise Strike is a Teamwork Feat, so it won't work unless your allies take it too, or unless you play some clever character-building trick. But if you explain to your fellow players that you are building a character that helps grant Flanking, and you plan to take a Teamwork Feat so that everybody could get Sneak Attack Damage, there is a good chance that your fellows will join you in your Teamwork Feat team.
Other Teamwork Feats to consider:
Paired Opportunist: Greater Trip will give you an attack of Opportunity. When a team has Paired Opportunist, whenever any of you get an AoO, all of you do, and at +4.
Cooridated maneuvers: all of you get +2 on Combat Maneuvers.
Harder they Fall: You aren't allowed to Trip anyone more than 2 Sizes bigger than you, unless you have Harder they Fall.
Broken Wing Gambit: nothing to do with Tripping, but if you all have BWG, whenever any of you is attacked, all of you get Attacks of Opportunity!
Other Feats you should look at
Greater Trip, of course, I just wanted to say it.
Combat Reflexes, of course again
Vicious Stomp: When someone next to you goes Prone, you get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity. You weren't talking about developing Unarmed strikes, and this won't work with Reach, but this stacks with Greater Trip, and it will trigger Paired Opportunist for your allies.
Punishing Kick: like Stunning Fist, but makes your opponent fall prone rather than Stunning them. "Making someone fall Prone" is not the same thing as actually Tripping them, but sometimes you can't Trip someone because of the Size restriction, for example.
Fury's Fall: you get to add your Dex +St mods to your Trip Roll.
Two of my co-players has hinted that their plans are to play heavily melee focused characters, thus making me feel that a melee focused Cleric would be a bit superfluous. It has me thinking I should change my build to being more support-oriented, something that I'm not initially against. I haven't played a Cleric before and their potential for buffing, healing and aiding their allies through divine magic is something I'd love to explore.
"Buffing, healing and aiding their allies through divine magic" is what the Cleric is made for. You say you are interested in exploring this; your party has expressed a need for this. I don't really understand the nuance of what you are going for with your character, but it is just about impossible to go wrong with a Cleric that wants to heal and support the party. I have often opined that Clerics are the easiest class to play: the bulwark of the Clerics' powers are a large list of spells they have total acess to and can change their minds about every day.
You want this. They want you. Follow your love, go on the adventures it leads you to and be happy.