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I don't see a reason for him to be a Gestalt. If I thought he should be a Gestalt, then I don't see any reason not to make any other character from any movie a Gestalt as well. Multiclass, sure.
As for a level. Like 4-6 maybe? I put him there because I don't think he would be a good match alone against a huge sized dinosaur, like a triceratops. I mean if he was outmatched by bane at one point, I don't see why he would be able to hold his own against something like 2 pyrohydras or an oliphant from LOTR (elephant with the giant template, maybe advanced).
I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.
You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.
I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.
I have a really hard time believing a real life trained soldier is CR 5 when your average huge sized pyro hydra comes in at CR 6, not unless they are all like Percy Jackson from the lightning thief.
John McClain and Indiana Jones are not CR15, not even put together. Going back to an earlier example of 1998 Godzilla, which comes in about CR13 - 14 (spinosaurus with giant, advanced, and savage template). Do you think john and indie have a chance of going toe-to-toe with a titanic sized saurian that's big enough to swallow whales whole and can tank direct rocket attacks and automatic gun fire? That's a true level 15 challenge.
It's no wonder why people think all super heroes are all epic level when people think James Bond or Indiana Jones are appropriate CR 15 challenges.
Yeah, I don't recall the cloverfield monster being big enough to devour something like that whole. You might not be remembering the creature too well.
I see what the problem is now with your assumptions. You're assuming creatures of the same size category are basically the same size. This is very untrue. The behemoth can also swallow a brachiosaurus, which is 85' long and 32 tons, or a flesh colossus, which is around 60' tall and 75 tons. All of these are gargantuan.
A kraken isn't T-rex sized, because it's nearly 100' long.
You don't have to be level 20 to be the greatest in the world, that only depends on the campaign setting. If the best is 6, then you become 7, you are now the greatest in the world.
As for the cloverfield monster example, it's not necessarily a kaiju. We don't know what it is, really. It could just be a colossal magical beast. I made the comparison to the thunder behemoth because it has the right size, strength, and toughness to survive the same attacks and destroy things as easily as the other monster did (except the thunder behemoth wouldn't die, unlike the cloverfield monster). So that's why I left it at around CR18, which it most likely is.
I don't know if 90hp is enough to survive being sumerged in lava because of the additional 10d6 fire damage for 1d3 rounds after escaping.
Batman being level 15 sounds much nicer than being 30.
So from what I'm reading is that every impressive comic book character is around level 30, as if it's impossible to represent any of them using levels below 20 and maybe using mythic. Including batman being level 30.
That would mean batman can survive being submerged in lava naked.
Possibly Beat godzilla using melee only.
Fall off the Empire State Building several times and be fine.
Go hand-to-hand with multiple giant monsters at the same time, like the cloverfield monster and win (which is around the same CR as a thunder behemoth, CR 18) or pin something like 1998 godzilla to the ground with his hand tied behind his back.
Which, IMO, according to these levels tossed around would make Bane capable of these things, too.
I haven't been keeping up with batman recently so I don't know if he can do these things. If you guys really say so then I can't argue with it.
ACR and CR aren't too much different. A 1 man army is considered a fine army at -8 ACR, which is why you need to be high level to even have an ACR rating.
Plus, a 6th level fighter with greater cleave and lunge could conceivably end the entire 16 man fight with one standard action, if they are all surrounding him. A same level arcane caster with fireball can end the encounter even easier. Doesn't seem like a CR 8 challenge to me.
There's no way thousands of foot soldiers are going to be CR20+. They would be no match for something like a Thunder Behemoth, which is CR 18. Not only do they need natural 20s to hit it, they can't even bypass its DR at max damage. A better chance of beating a creature like this would be using a level 19 character.
Why can't a 15th level take down an army of anything? The mass combat chart in ultimate campaign agrees with me, as well the game's combat mechanics. A group of 1,000 foot soldiers(that is CR 1/3 each, which is probably higher than bilbo)would lose to any decently made 15th level whether it's played using the ACR system or just using the grid like normal.
Anyway, there are always some sort of benefit to combat maneuvers. There was a feat from 3.5 that was posted in another thread like this that made big creatures take a -4 penalty to attacking you if you were climbing it.
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but what are the benefits for scaling a monster in this maneuver?
While it may not make sense to you that a small creature could grapple a colossal monster, but I think using bilbo is an unfair comparison. Not all small creatures are like bilbo. Something like a 15th level halfling would be so far apart in power level compared to bilbo that the 15th level halfling can take down an army of bilbos.
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the physics of a typical dnd/pathfinder world would have to be different. After all, in our world, there is no known way to say words, move your hands around and produce explosions, or to fly, or so on, or to change the very nature of your being, or to create something from nothing, and so on. Magic is commonplace in a fantasy world. I have yet to read or see compelling evidence that a person could create such effects without some form of tool to do so. Or spontaneously gain mass, for that matter.
It's just fantasy. Just like in a movie where magic exists, it's existence doesn't mean that people can't fall off a roof top, get shot, or something similar and die from it, like real life. Just because superhuman PCs can survive anything and defy physics, this doesn't mean that physics some how does not apply to everybody else in the world.
Since you're comparing real life to this game. All that would be is a modern, no magic pathfinder setting. So now nobody can transform or fly.
Pathfinder zombies can lose their heads and still attack, yet this has a higher CR than that?
Why can I only attack its head? You're forgetting that all types of creatures of different shape and size other than medium could potentially battle a "movie zombie." Would a colossal monster be limited to only attacking its head?
I can't imagine why Rambo would need 20 bab. At that point he could shoot several gnats out of the air over 100' away with a bow like it was nothing.
I guess for starters, you could shrink the map and make the boss occupy a bunch of squares with a giant reach. Players could move at 1/2 speed to represent how far they are from the boss.
I can probably think of more ideas that I'll post later.
Maybe you could make it cost twice or more of their speed to move a square (10'-15' to move one square) while the boss moves at normal speed.
Colossal monsters generally fit into a 30' square, even though they are much larger than that. That is because it was meant to make it easier to use and play with on the map and is not meant to be an accurate representation of the monster. So you don't need to necessarily make the creature occupy the exact same size of squares that the monster is.
For Shadow of the Colossus, they would be in the gargantuan and colossal range.
I don't know the CR range of your game, but you could start off with higher CR animals with the giant template to make them colossal and work from there (if it's a lower CR encounter).
Medusa heads (beheaded?)are in bestiary 4.
Templates, such as zombie, skeleton, giant, and shadow could be used on many monsters to create a number of various monsters. For example, take an elephant and apply the giant and skeleton template. Now you have a skeleton version of an oliphant from lord of the rings.
It needs a energy attack or breath weapon, 1998 version had green fire thing attack, i feel a drake or a dragon would make a better base
I could throw on an additional mythic rank to grant it an ability from the universal monster rules (breath weapon). Other than that, I feel this build is pretty spot on. Making him a dragon or drake I feel is pretty inappropriate.
I went with spinosaurus with the giant, advanced, and savage template.
The savage template was so it could have DR and energy resistances to ignore most mundane attacks, and so that it's melee attacks are more dangerous.
The giant template was for obvious reasons.
The advanced template was just for good measure.
That all comes to CR14 in order to function just like zilla did in the movie.
I wanted to stat this version because it's much easier, which I already pinned it at about CR 14.
There is no bigger than colossal. The biggest monster is Oliphant of Jandelay, who is an elephantine monster that's thousands of feet tall.
Mechanically speaking, though, the biggest is the Aspidochelone because it occupies a 150' square.
Matthew Downie wrote:
to be fair, the t-rex used to be huge in 3.5. You could just apply the young template to better suit it to a real world t-rex.I like to think of pathfinder t-rex as more of a fantasy titanic sized t-rex, anyway.
It being 40' long is just fluff, as it could be nearly 100' long and it wouldn't really make a difference mechanically.
So I recently noticed that monsters with swallow whole could swallow up to a size category 1 less than the swallowing monster. I also realized that means gargantuan monsters with that ability can swallow a mammoth whole, and that same gargantuan monster that swallowed the mammoth can be swallowed by a colossal monster. That sounds pretty crazy, really.
"Realistically" speaking, how big would a colossal T-rex have to be to swallow a sperm whale?
How big would a colossal vortex dragon have to be to use its breath weapon and suck a kraken from a distance into its maw and then swallow it?
It seems like not many people have noticed this about swallow whole since I barely found anything about it by searching the boards.
What do you guys think about this? I think it's really cool to have monsters that massive in the game.
He sounds like a guy with plenty of hero points.
Humans do not have swallow whole.
Haflings do not have swallow whole.
Cats do not have swallow whole.
You do not have swallow whole.
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Even if you do raise a rune giant's size by 2, it still doesn't go beyond colossal. This is because there is nothing beyond colossal according to RAW.
You probably still gain a size bonus from the spell's effect, if it doesn't mention anything about the spell failing if cast on a colossal monster. It's like how a huge dragon using beast shape to turn into a huge creature and still gaining the size bonuses to strength.
Plenty of creatures can swallow whole. A colossal T-rex can swallow whales or even Krakens. I know not all big creatures can swallow whole, but the ones that can do exactly what I'm talking about.
Like I said, you can always use a bigger space and reach. The aspidochelone is a giant whale with an island on its back, it also has a space of 150'.
I never liked the idea of having categories beyond colossal, as I think it sells the gargantuan and colossal size category pretty short. A gargantuan monster could swallow a mammoth whole, while the colossal monster could swallow whole that very same monster that ate the mammoth. Beyond that you could just increase reach and/or space.
I wasn't considering the cost but how well they function on their own.
Heavy weapons can attack in areas or target multiple creatures. It's not something the bow can do on its own.
You can still make +5 holy rocket launcher, for what it's worth.