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Sheriff Belor Hemolock

Sauce987654321's page

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Why are people thinking he has any resemblance of a 20th level character?

A fine target has an AC of 13 or 18 if it's moving. A first level PC can hit this without too much difficulty.

He can shoot fast. This doesn't mean he is high level. The game doesn't care about fire rate too much. If there were a video of someone shooting a target 6+ times with 2 guns, does that mean +16/+11/+6/+1 base with rapid shot and all the 2 weapon fighting feats with at least 19 dex? No.

He doesn't have deflect/snatch arrows, because that would mean he can catch bullets.

Since high level equals high CR, that would mean a dire crocodile (a CR 9 monster that's large enough to swallow elephants and killer whales whole) isn't even half the CR of this person.


Matthew Downie wrote:

I dunno - 568 goblins might be as much of a challenge as any CR 16 enemy to a level 16 group. Give them all, say, light crossbows. Even if they can only hit on a natural 20, that's about 128 damage per round. Surprisingly close to what a CR 16 monster might do with a full attack.

Like most threats, they can be largely crippled within a round or two by any level 16 casters who know what they're doing.

I disagree, mainly because any sort of damage reduction can pretty much shut down the entire encounter, even as low as 5. Just about any class can gain access to damage reduction through spells, class abilities (like a barbarian), or feats such as stalwart.


They probably cap the CR bonus at +8 because if you can already handle that you can probably handle a lot more.


N. Jolly wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

Do what exactly? Be accurate with your shots and move? A fine target (like a soda cap) with a dex mod of 0 would have an AC of 18. an immoble one has an AC of 13. It's not hard for a second level to hit a target like this.

Him catching an arrow and shooting it back would suggest imp unarmed strike, deflect arrows, and snatch arrows. I doubt he can do this all the time though and would mean he can catch bullets mid air if he had the feat.

Rapid shot as well.

Anything I'm missing?

See, what I asked was 'show me the build'. What you did was talk about a few feats. As for accuracy, there was shooting an arrow out of the air, which presumably has higher than 18 AC. And 2nd level with a full BAB class with 18 dex is +6 before rapid shot, which means an average of 12 on roll, which while not super difficult is still harder than average, meaning using rapid shot pushes that to 14 (which he's obviously using), which IS difficult.

Not to mention the rate at which 3 arrows were fired, which is something no 2nd level character can do. To get to ten we're at one hell of a build already, most likely some kind of Zen Archer monster.

Note that he also by PF rules didn't have a hand free to use Snatch Arrows, also noting that he'd normally have to throw the arrow back instead of firing it from his bow.

Not to mention the again laughable point of moving and firing more than one arrow (gotta love PF mobility), and there's no way he could do this all at 2nd level. Even IUS/D. Arrow/S. Arrow would require almost every feat he could get.

This isn't a second level build unless you're gestalting like 8 classes that get bonus feats.

Shooting an arrow head mid flight (which is just a moving air born target, which you can ready an action to shoot if your GM allows it) would just be a fine target without dex mod. Why is it higher than AC 18?

You can just not hold on to your bow with 2 hands at the end of your round. When you catch the arrow, just use it next round.

If you want to move and shoot 2 arrows, just take a 5 foot step and rapid shot at the start of your next round after moving in your previous.

As for the 3 arrows in one round, so? The game isn't trying to be realistic with firing rate. The fact that you can fire a semiautomatic firearm only 3 times in a round (semiautomatic quality + rapid shot) and a musket once a round at level 1 is proof. This isn't something the game does.


N. Jolly wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

As far as real life is concerned, everything he was doing was very impressive.

In pathfinder? You can do all this by 2nd level.

Show me the build that at 2nd level can do that then.

Do what exactly? Be accurate with your shots and move? A fine target (like a soda cap, or a head of an arrow) with a dex mod of 0 would have an AC of 18. an immobile one has an AC of 13. It's not hard for a second level to hit a target like this.

Him catching an arrow and shooting it back would suggest imp unarmed strike, deflect arrows, and snatch arrows. I doubt he can do this all the time though and would mean he can catch bullets mid air if he had the feat.

Rapid shot as well.

Anything I'm missing?


As far as real life is concerned, everything he was doing was very impressive.

In pathfinder? You can do all this by 2nd level.


MeanMutton wrote:

The mass combat rules aren't very good at all. There is literally no way 500 lv 3 fighters could hope to win that battle. Improved invisibility, flying, haste, breath weapon that kills dozens of tightly packed soldiers per use, and a natural damage resistance that would allow the dragon to ignore the fighters' attacks?

If a kingdom has a dragon, they call up adventurers for a reason.

they couldn't win anyway, unless nearly all of them had magic weapons. Its DR adds way too much to its Defense Value for them to reliabily hit.


I thought blood rager could be a decent option.


Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.
I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s
Since it happens to be an aoe, it will damage it. You're comparing that to a melee weapon that targets a single monster.
Hence the sarcasm. What qualifies as weapon damage? Is it merely the d[#] with the various bonuses (str, power attack, etc)? Is something like flaming counted as weapon damage or energy damage? Are/Aren't they mutually exclusive?

There isn't such a thing as "weapon damage." Most swarms don't take damage from anything targeting a single creature, which is what category nearly all melee and ranged weapons fall under. These weapons could be a sword, a sword enhanced with fire damage, or a flame blade spell cast from a Druid. The type of damage it deals doesn't matter.

Edit: I read the swarm subtype and it does mention weapon damage, but it doesn't change what I wrote, though.


Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.
I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s

Since it happens to be an aoe, it will damage it. You're comparing that to a melee weapon that targets a single monster.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.


LazarX wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
My solution to keep martials bound to reality is to keep them very low level.

Why should the martials be so tied down to physics, when wizards and dragons are not? Did all of those hard bound realists also stop watching saturday morning wuxia theater? Did they snub their noses at Beowulf who beats a monster by tearing off it's arm with his bare hands? or Conan who does much of the same?

It's called Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

I was just telling the poster how I would go about it if I wanted a martial character to be more realistic, because he was talking about this in his last paragraph. That's not how I actually think martials should be treated.


My solution to keep martials bound to reality is to keep them very low level.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Your choices are Monowhip, Rail Gun, and Rocket Launcher. If you can't get firearms there's no way in @#$% you're getting these though.
If the DM is throwing the Tarrasque at him, it's only fair that he gets a Rocket Launcher or something.

A rocket would do an average of 6 damage to the tarrasque, lol.


Here is another nice spell vs bullets (and many other weapons}.


I agree that 13th level is too high, considering that creatures like sharks and crocodiles large enough to swallow elephants whole each clock in several CRs lower (CR 9).


Based off what I'm reading from this thread, he sounds like a person with a lot of hero points with hero point feats.


Doomed Hero wrote:

Think about Data in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

If he was a player character, he'd have abilities that were way more powerful than everyone else in the party. (huge strength, immune to all kinds of stuff, perfect memory, computer interface and speed, inhuman levels of accuracy and reflex)

That just represents him having a higher CR and statistics than the rest of his crew and doesn't necessarily have to be a trait of being an android.


My solution to that would just have the characters not reach 20 or even 15 and just use lower levels, instead of adjusting the powerlevel of high level characters to become more realistic. It's not like 20th level characters are only meant to be very skillful, they are meant to be freakishly superhuman.


Dazzlerdal wrote:
A level 20 fighter or wizard or indeed any character should still find himself challenged by a horde of 100 or more orcs. No character should be invulnerable.

I'm sure some people would be cool with that, but I wouldn't like that too much. Your characters at that level can kill giant monsters and take on god-like immortals on their own, so having their life threatened by a group of 100+ orcs rubs me the wrong way.


I'm not sure how 5th edition works their monsters, because I never read any of that material. You could raise the CR on weaker monsters to make them challenging, by giving them templates and/or raising hit dice.


Cyrad wrote:
I honestly envisioned Santa Claus as a 9th or 11th level human with enough mythic tiers to gain immortality, not a 20th level outsider. It doesn't make much sense for him to be beyond 11th since he doesn't do any adventuring or combat.

I thought the high CR was intended to be humorous.


Half damage from energy attacks apply to objects only. That is a quality of an object, not hardness. Animated objects are considered creatures, it says this in the game.


Suffocating it isn't an option since it doesn't breath.

It's a creature of the earth subtype with burrow. Which means it can burrow through solid stone.

Siege weapons against it wouldn't really work too well considering it's regen, DR, and high AC.


This monster if you don't know.

How do you think they would be able to defend against it? Do you think anything in that setting could help stop it? What do you think would happen?

Sorry, I'm just a little bored, lol.


Losobal wrote:
Hm, if we were going by rules, I'd say its closer to "they did really well on Str related checks for the individual instance, rather than the overall strength rating of <X>"

I agree with this, considering that a Str of 23 (+6) can burst rope, manacles, and chain at that level of strength.


This kinda reminds me of a GM that thought of Bruce Lee as a level 10+ monk, lol.


Yeah, ogres typically have 21, anyway. It's going to be very rare to see a small creature with a better strength score than a large creature.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I did give them the same weapon, by using a brawler or monk for unarmed damage instead of forcing them to use inappropriate sized weapons. The reason the ogre has more damage dice and average damage with his unarmed attacks is because he is bigger and stronger, same reason it has a greater carrying capacity. You're just focusing on just the strength score for some reason instead of other factors, such as being bigger gives you more damage with natural weapons, unarmed damage, wield bigger weapons, increased carrying capacity and strength checks to break doors. Yes the halfling does more damage with using the exact same size weapon, but is weaker in every other comparison and category.


deusvult wrote:


Not if you give them identical weapons. Say, a medium sized longsword. The Halfling with 18 strength will do 1d8+6 damage (two handed). The Ogre with 16 strength will do 1d8+4 damage two handed, to keep comparing apples to apples.

I don't think it's fair giving the halfling a big weapon and the ogre gets one that's too small for it. What if they had levels in monk or brawler? The halfling's unarmed strike is going to be 1d4, and the ogre's is going to be 1d8. The halfling's average damage is going to be 6.5 when the ogre's is going to be 7.5. The gap is going to only get wider as they level up.

Quote:
I'm not saying it SHOULD scale.. was just saying it's nonsensical.

In any case, it was a design choice to make higher level characters survive giant falls and such. Not just for playability, but because their supposed to be superhuman and tough enough to survive crazy things. It's fantasy, just like how marvel comic book characters are intentionally superhuman. It's the same thing here.


deusvult wrote:

If that whole train of thought isn't compelling, then consider a meta one:

Sometimes the rules just don't make sense. Carrying capacities and strength values are pretty damn arbitrary, anyway. How come an Ogre with 16 strength that can benchpress a schoolbus can't deal as much damage as a Halfling with 18 strength that couldn't benchpress half as much?

Since when can ogres bench press a school bus?

Anyway, a halfling's damage dice with any weapon they can use including unarmed strike is going to have less damage dice than the ogre. The ogre is still going to hit harder, for the most part.

Quote:
My favorite is that environmental damage doesn't scale with hit dice. Why does falling from a great height hurt any less depending on how much you know about defending yourself from melee attacks? Why does the flesh of a newbie adventurer burn so much faster than the flesh of a veteran one?

It's because higher level characters are superhuman. Characters aren't just learning how to deal with melee weapons, they have to deal with breath weapons, firearms, spells, siege weapons etc.. It wouldn't make sense to scale environmental damage when nothing else does.


A non mythic monster with that template gains no mythic surges


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, one exists in this game, the other doesn't.


BigDTBone wrote:
DM Jelani wrote:
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?
Those people had an effective 24+ from circumstance bonuses (training everyday) and alchemical (steroid) bonuses. Unfortunately those aren't in the rules yet but you could manage a houserule if you wanted.

no house rules needed. Strength 19+ works just fine.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Dead lifting, as in lift off the ground, right? Just being sure, because that would be 19 strength, not 24. 24 strength is to lift 700 overhead, and 19 is to lift 700 off the ground (max load of 350 doubled).


I don't think it was intended to allow regular creatures to cast mythic spells, but to allow them to have some sort of spell casting ability. A good example would be a tyrannosaurus capable of using flame strike. Giving them a rank or more would allow them to take advantage of the ability.

So yeah, that particular ability gained from the template is worthless for regular monsters, but I still think it's a cool template for regular monsters.


The flat-footed condition can make for some cool moments. Like a rogue with high initiative moving and cleaving several people's heads off before they even draw their weapons.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

Actually, going back and looking it up:

Hardness

Hardness and Objects' resistance to energy damage is actually coincidental - Hardness itself doesn't halve the damage, and instead it's the fact that something is an Object that causes that Damage Reduction.

Animated Objects are still "objects" and thus retain that energy-resistant quality, again at the cost of being basically a dumb brute Vanilla creature.

Constructs don't automatically gain Hardness, either, and even creatures with the Construct type aren't innately immune to energy damage either.

Behemoth creatures do get Hardness, but they don't get the broad energy resistance, either.

Seems objects, animated or inert, are the only things that flatly cut energy damage in half.

Animated Objects are creatures. It states this in one of the books.

icehawk333 wrote:
Having a hardness score halves all elemental damage Except cold, though. Cold gets 1/4thed.

That's from 3.5. That rule no longer exists.


If you're trying to go for a marvel superhero sort of theme, then go mythic. I would not allow mythic vital strike, though.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:

I mean, you're asking "what's going to kill an aardvark less - an A-bomb or an H-bomb?"

Neither are terribly "balanced", really.

One has you gaining 2 Class Levels for every 1 Character Level you obtain, and the other is slowly turning you into a god.

The main difference is that Mythic has a definite cap on it: You can only hit Mythic Tier 1 at lv2 at the earliest, Tier 2 at lv4, etc.

---

Personally, I really like the Mythic rules, but only for bosses (it's seriously a pretty sick system for making boss creatures).

Mythic doesn't cap you based on level, that's just a recommendation. You can hit tier 10 at level 1 if your GM allows it.

It's not an as-written rule, but I'd say treat it as such regardless.

Tier 10 characters can effectively qualify for godhood in all but name - 4 Domains, 4 Subdomains, no need to eat or sleep, immune to non-mythic illnesses, poisons, etc., and can't be killed except by Major Artifacts. There's really no reason a lv1 character should have god-level powers.

I mean I wouldn't be cool with that. I was just saying it's doable. I guess a less extreme example is a level 12 character with 8 mythic tiers would be allowed.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

I mean, you're asking "what's going to kill an aardvark less - an A-bomb or an H-bomb?"

Neither are terribly "balanced", really.

One has you gaining 2 Class Levels for every 1 Character Level you obtain, and the other is slowly turning you into a god.

The main difference is that Mythic has a definite cap on it: You can only hit Mythic Tier 1 at lv2 at the earliest, Tier 2 at lv4, etc.

---

Personally, I really like the Mythic rules, but only for bosses (it's seriously a pretty sick system for making boss creatures).

Mythic doesn't cap you based on level, that's just a recommendation. You can hit tier 10 at level 1 if your GM allows it.


Is this what you're looking for?:
Juggernaut (Ex) (Mythic Origins pg. 22) Little can stand in your way when you charge forth into battle—even solid doors and walls don't stand a chance. While charging, you may attempt a free Strength check to break through a single door or wall in your path. You can expend one use of mythic power while performing this charge to gain a +10 circumstance bonus on your Strength check to break the object. If you destroy the object, you can continue your charge as though it were never there. If you fail to destroy the object, your movement ends in the square before that object. Note that destroying integral parts of a structure may trigger a collapse (treat as a cave-in) at the GM's discretion. This ability can be combined with other path abilities and effects that modify charge attacks, such as the burst through path ability (Mythic Adventures 21). You can select this ability up to three times. Each additional time you select it, you may break through one more wall or door during your charge, and the circumstance bonus on your Strength check increases by 10 (to a maximum of a +30 circumstance bonus)


I never found anything wrong with adding high tech into the game. What I like the most about the game is how versatile the game is. If I want a futuristic setting where giant animals are equipped with integrated rocket launchers and force fields; I can do that. If I want a zombie apocalypse setting with people using laser rifles and plasma grenades; I can do that. How about a setting with cybernetic vampires vs titanic sized insects? I can do that, too. I don't have to look for another game for these settings, because it's all right here. Pathfinder is much more than just sword and sorcery, which is what I really like about the game.


Melkiador wrote:
How could Batman have a low level with all of the XP he must have accrued? Consider how many CR appropriate encounters he has participated in.

We were talking about movie batman (dark knight) on this page, not the comic one.


What I would love to have is an "advanced bestiary guide" or something of that sort. It would be like the advanced race guide in how you build races, except it would be with monsters.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.

That's fair. At least depending on what you mean by 'lower level'. The version of Batman from 'The Dark Knight', in Pathfinder, is likely an 8th to 9th level Gestalt Brawler/Slayer (not an Investigator basically because he lacks anywhere near the gadgetry of most other versions) with a few shiny toys...but that's hardly the definitive version of the character, IMO.

And he's in a world where most other people max out at 6th level for the most part, and are usually lower, with a few individual and very specific exceptions like The Joker or Bane (who are on par with him). The world likely caps at 10th or so as a hard limit.

I don't see a reason for him to be a Gestalt. If I thought he should be a Gestalt, then I don't see any reason not to make any other character from any movie a Gestalt as well. Multiclass, sure.

As for a level. Like 4-6 maybe? I put him there because I don't think he would be a good match alone against a huge sized dinosaur, like a triceratops. I mean if he was outmatched by bane at one point, I don't see why he would be able to hold his own against something like 2 pyrohydras or an oliphant from LOTR (elephant with the giant template, maybe advanced).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.

Sure. But if Batman is Mythic, clearly so are his peers. Indeed, he's likely lower-tier than basically any other member of the Justice League, and than many of his foes. So...he still needs high level to be better than them and the foes they face.

I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.


You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

To elaborate - an average well-trained infantry soldier would probably be about a lv5 Fighter. Again, we're going with Wounds & Vitality here as the Health meter.

A Troop of 16 such soldiers are a CR13 encounter.

This would be an "Easy" fight for 3 lv15 Characters (APL14 vs CR13).

However, 3 such groupings would be a CR16 encounter, and classified as "Hard" (APL14 vs CR16)

A "Hard" encounter for 3 lv15 characters is 48 lv5 infantrymen.

This fits in fine with characters like Indie, John McClain, even Bond.

48 lv5s is an "Easy" Fight for just about 2 of any members of the Justice League.

48 lv5s might be a "Tough" fight for 2 members of the Titans, possibly, but for the big guys - the ones in the League - that's just a Sunday afternoon stroll.

Darkseid can solo an army of hundreds to thousands of CR5s. Those are encounters of up to and above CR25.

Using that model, it becomes pretty apparent just how high-level characters like Batman have to be in order to solo someone like Darkseid, since Batman doesn't have the Racial abilities of someone like Superman, or a Magic-Item-bordering-on-Minor-Artifact like the Green Lanterns.

I have a really hard time believing a real life trained soldier is CR 5 when your average huge sized pyro hydra comes in at CR 6, not unless they are all like Percy Jackson from the lightning thief.

John McClain and Indiana Jones are not CR15, not even put together. Going back to an earlier example of 1998 Godzilla, which comes in about CR13 - 14 (spinosaurus with giant, advanced, and savage template). Do you think john and indie have a chance of going toe-to-toe with a titanic sized saurian that's big enough to swallow whales whole and can tank direct rocket attacks and automatic gun fire? That's a true level 15 challenge.

It's no wonder why people think all super heroes are all epic level when people think James Bond or Indiana Jones are appropriate CR 15 challenges.


Yeah, I don't recall the cloverfield monster being big enough to devour something like that whole. You might not be remembering the creature too well.

I see what the problem is now with your assumptions. You're assuming creatures of the same size category are basically the same size. This is very untrue. The behemoth can also swallow a brachiosaurus, which is 85' long and 32 tons, or a flesh colossus, which is around 60' tall and 75 tons. All of these are gargantuan.

A kraken isn't T-rex sized, because it's nearly 100' long.

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