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Sheriff Belor Hemolock

Sauce987654321's page

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Half damage from energy attacks apply to objects only. That is a quality of an object, not hardness. Animated objects are considered creatures, it says this in the game.


Suffocating it isn't an option since it doesn't breath.

It's a creature of the earth subtype with burrow. Which means it can burrow through solid stone.

Siege weapons against it wouldn't really work too well considering it's regen, DR, and high AC.


This monster if you don't know.

How do you think they would be able to defend against it? Do you think anything in that setting could help stop it? What do you think would happen?

Sorry, I'm just a little bored, lol.


Losobal wrote:
Hm, if we were going by rules, I'd say its closer to "they did really well on Str related checks for the individual instance, rather than the overall strength rating of <X>"

I agree with this, considering that a Str of 23 (+6) can burst rope, manacles, and chain at that level of strength.


This kinda reminds me of a GM that thought of Bruce Lee as a level 10+ monk, lol.


Yeah, ogres typically have 21, anyway. It's going to be very rare to see a small creature with a better strength score than a large creature.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I did give them the same weapon, by using a brawler or monk for unarmed damage instead of forcing them to use inappropriate sized weapons. The reason the ogre has more damage dice and average damage with his unarmed attacks is because he is bigger and stronger, same reason it has a greater carrying capacity. You're just focusing on just the strength score for some reason instead of other factors, such as being bigger gives you more damage with natural weapons, unarmed damage, wield bigger weapons, increased carrying capacity and strength checks to break doors. Yes the halfling does more damage with using the exact same size weapon, but is weaker in every other comparison and category.


deusvult wrote:


Not if you give them identical weapons. Say, a medium sized longsword. The Halfling with 18 strength will do 1d8+6 damage (two handed). The Ogre with 16 strength will do 1d8+4 damage two handed, to keep comparing apples to apples.

I don't think it's fair giving the halfling a big weapon and the ogre gets one that's too small for it. What if they had levels in monk or brawler? The halfling's unarmed strike is going to be 1d4, and the ogre's is going to be 1d8. The halfling's average damage is going to be 6.5 when the ogre's is going to be 7.5. The gap is going to only get wider as they level up.

Quote:
I'm not saying it SHOULD scale.. was just saying it's nonsensical.

In any case, it was a design choice to make higher level characters survive giant falls and such. Not just for playability, but because their supposed to be superhuman and tough enough to survive crazy things. It's fantasy, just like how marvel comic book characters are intentionally superhuman. It's the same thing here.


deusvult wrote:

If that whole train of thought isn't compelling, then consider a meta one:

Sometimes the rules just don't make sense. Carrying capacities and strength values are pretty damn arbitrary, anyway. How come an Ogre with 16 strength that can benchpress a schoolbus can't deal as much damage as a Halfling with 18 strength that couldn't benchpress half as much?

Since when can ogres bench press a school bus?

Anyway, a halfling's damage dice with any weapon they can use including unarmed strike is going to have less damage dice than the ogre. The ogre is still going to hit harder, for the most part.

Quote:
My favorite is that environmental damage doesn't scale with hit dice. Why does falling from a great height hurt any less depending on how much you know about defending yourself from melee attacks? Why does the flesh of a newbie adventurer burn so much faster than the flesh of a veteran one?

It's because higher level characters are superhuman. Characters aren't just learning how to deal with melee weapons, they have to deal with breath weapons, firearms, spells, siege weapons etc.. It wouldn't make sense to scale environmental damage when nothing else does.


A non mythic monster with that template gains no mythic surges


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, one exists in this game, the other doesn't.


BigDTBone wrote:
DM Jelani wrote:
I've recently come across the fact that there are people out there (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Colombo, Reg Park, Layne Norton, etc) who could/can deadlift 700+ lbs. That means that according to the carrying capacity chart, they have 24 or better strength with no magical items. Why then, is 20 the highest starting racial score for humans? Seems the only way to get above 20 in PF is magic of one sort or another (or being really high level, which no one on Earth is). Maybe there should be some mechanic for training ability scores. Or is there one and I don't know about it?
Those people had an effective 24+ from circumstance bonuses (training everyday) and alchemical (steroid) bonuses. Unfortunately those aren't in the rules yet but you could manage a houserule if you wanted.

no house rules needed. Strength 19+ works just fine.


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Dead lifting, as in lift off the ground, right? Just being sure, because that would be 19 strength, not 24. 24 strength is to lift 700 overhead, and 19 is to lift 700 off the ground (max load of 350 doubled).


I don't think it was intended to allow regular creatures to cast mythic spells, but to allow them to have some sort of spell casting ability. A good example would be a tyrannosaurus capable of using flame strike. Giving them a rank or more would allow them to take advantage of the ability.

So yeah, that particular ability gained from the template is worthless for regular monsters, but I still think it's a cool template for regular monsters.


The flat-footed condition can make for some cool moments. Like a rogue with high initiative moving and cleaving several people's heads off before they even draw their weapons.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

Actually, going back and looking it up:

Hardness

Hardness and Objects' resistance to energy damage is actually coincidental - Hardness itself doesn't halve the damage, and instead it's the fact that something is an Object that causes that Damage Reduction.

Animated Objects are still "objects" and thus retain that energy-resistant quality, again at the cost of being basically a dumb brute Vanilla creature.

Constructs don't automatically gain Hardness, either, and even creatures with the Construct type aren't innately immune to energy damage either.

Behemoth creatures do get Hardness, but they don't get the broad energy resistance, either.

Seems objects, animated or inert, are the only things that flatly cut energy damage in half.

Animated Objects are creatures. It states this in one of the books.

icehawk333 wrote:
Having a hardness score halves all elemental damage Except cold, though. Cold gets 1/4thed.

That's from 3.5. That rule no longer exists.


If you're trying to go for a marvel superhero sort of theme, then go mythic. I would not allow mythic vital strike, though.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:

I mean, you're asking "what's going to kill an aardvark less - an A-bomb or an H-bomb?"

Neither are terribly "balanced", really.

One has you gaining 2 Class Levels for every 1 Character Level you obtain, and the other is slowly turning you into a god.

The main difference is that Mythic has a definite cap on it: You can only hit Mythic Tier 1 at lv2 at the earliest, Tier 2 at lv4, etc.

---

Personally, I really like the Mythic rules, but only for bosses (it's seriously a pretty sick system for making boss creatures).

Mythic doesn't cap you based on level, that's just a recommendation. You can hit tier 10 at level 1 if your GM allows it.

It's not an as-written rule, but I'd say treat it as such regardless.

Tier 10 characters can effectively qualify for godhood in all but name - 4 Domains, 4 Subdomains, no need to eat or sleep, immune to non-mythic illnesses, poisons, etc., and can't be killed except by Major Artifacts. There's really no reason a lv1 character should have god-level powers.

I mean I wouldn't be cool with that. I was just saying it's doable. I guess a less extreme example is a level 12 character with 8 mythic tiers would be allowed.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

I mean, you're asking "what's going to kill an aardvark less - an A-bomb or an H-bomb?"

Neither are terribly "balanced", really.

One has you gaining 2 Class Levels for every 1 Character Level you obtain, and the other is slowly turning you into a god.

The main difference is that Mythic has a definite cap on it: You can only hit Mythic Tier 1 at lv2 at the earliest, Tier 2 at lv4, etc.

---

Personally, I really like the Mythic rules, but only for bosses (it's seriously a pretty sick system for making boss creatures).

Mythic doesn't cap you based on level, that's just a recommendation. You can hit tier 10 at level 1 if your GM allows it.


Is this what you're looking for?:
Juggernaut (Ex) (Mythic Origins pg. 22) Little can stand in your way when you charge forth into battle—even solid doors and walls don't stand a chance. While charging, you may attempt a free Strength check to break through a single door or wall in your path. You can expend one use of mythic power while performing this charge to gain a +10 circumstance bonus on your Strength check to break the object. If you destroy the object, you can continue your charge as though it were never there. If you fail to destroy the object, your movement ends in the square before that object. Note that destroying integral parts of a structure may trigger a collapse (treat as a cave-in) at the GM's discretion. This ability can be combined with other path abilities and effects that modify charge attacks, such as the burst through path ability (Mythic Adventures 21). You can select this ability up to three times. Each additional time you select it, you may break through one more wall or door during your charge, and the circumstance bonus on your Strength check increases by 10 (to a maximum of a +30 circumstance bonus)


I never found anything wrong with adding high tech into the game. What I like the most about the game is how versatile the game is. If I want a futuristic setting where giant animals are equipped with integrated rocket launchers and force fields; I can do that. If I want a zombie apocalypse setting with people using laser rifles and plasma grenades; I can do that. How about a setting with cybernetic vampires vs titanic sized insects? I can do that, too. I don't have to look for another game for these settings, because it's all right here. Pathfinder is much more than just sword and sorcery, which is what I really like about the game.


Melkiador wrote:
How could Batman have a low level with all of the XP he must have accrued? Consider how many CR appropriate encounters he has participated in.

We were talking about movie batman (dark knight) on this page, not the comic one.


What I would love to have is an "advanced bestiary guide" or something of that sort. It would be like the advanced race guide in how you build races, except it would be with monsters.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.

That's fair. At least depending on what you mean by 'lower level'. The version of Batman from 'The Dark Knight', in Pathfinder, is likely an 8th to 9th level Gestalt Brawler/Slayer (not an Investigator basically because he lacks anywhere near the gadgetry of most other versions) with a few shiny toys...but that's hardly the definitive version of the character, IMO.

And he's in a world where most other people max out at 6th level for the most part, and are usually lower, with a few individual and very specific exceptions like The Joker or Bane (who are on par with him). The world likely caps at 10th or so as a hard limit.

I don't see a reason for him to be a Gestalt. If I thought he should be a Gestalt, then I don't see any reason not to make any other character from any movie a Gestalt as well. Multiclass, sure.

As for a level. Like 4-6 maybe? I put him there because I don't think he would be a good match alone against a huge sized dinosaur, like a triceratops. I mean if he was outmatched by bane at one point, I don't see why he would be able to hold his own against something like 2 pyrohydras or an oliphant from LOTR (elephant with the giant template, maybe advanced).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.

Sure. But if Batman is Mythic, clearly so are his peers. Indeed, he's likely lower-tier than basically any other member of the Justice League, and than many of his foes. So...he still needs high level to be better than them and the foes they face.

I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.


You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

To elaborate - an average well-trained infantry soldier would probably be about a lv5 Fighter. Again, we're going with Wounds & Vitality here as the Health meter.

A Troop of 16 such soldiers are a CR13 encounter.

This would be an "Easy" fight for 3 lv15 Characters (APL14 vs CR13).

However, 3 such groupings would be a CR16 encounter, and classified as "Hard" (APL14 vs CR16)

A "Hard" encounter for 3 lv15 characters is 48 lv5 infantrymen.

This fits in fine with characters like Indie, John McClain, even Bond.

48 lv5s is an "Easy" Fight for just about 2 of any members of the Justice League.

48 lv5s might be a "Tough" fight for 2 members of the Titans, possibly, but for the big guys - the ones in the League - that's just a Sunday afternoon stroll.

Darkseid can solo an army of hundreds to thousands of CR5s. Those are encounters of up to and above CR25.

Using that model, it becomes pretty apparent just how high-level characters like Batman have to be in order to solo someone like Darkseid, since Batman doesn't have the Racial abilities of someone like Superman, or a Magic-Item-bordering-on-Minor-Artifact like the Green Lanterns.

I have a really hard time believing a real life trained soldier is CR 5 when your average huge sized pyro hydra comes in at CR 6, not unless they are all like Percy Jackson from the lightning thief.

John McClain and Indiana Jones are not CR15, not even put together. Going back to an earlier example of 1998 Godzilla, which comes in about CR13 - 14 (spinosaurus with giant, advanced, and savage template). Do you think john and indie have a chance of going toe-to-toe with a titanic sized saurian that's big enough to swallow whales whole and can tank direct rocket attacks and automatic gun fire? That's a true level 15 challenge.

It's no wonder why people think all super heroes are all epic level when people think James Bond or Indiana Jones are appropriate CR 15 challenges.


Yeah, I don't recall the cloverfield monster being big enough to devour something like that whole. You might not be remembering the creature too well.

I see what the problem is now with your assumptions. You're assuming creatures of the same size category are basically the same size. This is very untrue. The behemoth can also swallow a brachiosaurus, which is 85' long and 32 tons, or a flesh colossus, which is around 60' tall and 75 tons. All of these are gargantuan.

A kraken isn't T-rex sized, because it's nearly 100' long.


The Thunder Behemoth isn't big enough? Ehh, that's kind of a bold statement, lol. The Thunder Behemoth can swallow entire sperm whales and even Krakens whole and fit them in to its 5 stomachs. So yes, it can carry 5 Krakens in its 5 stomachs. Waaaay larger than a diplodocus.


You don't have to be level 20 to be the greatest in the world, that only depends on the campaign setting. If the best is 6, then you become 7, you are now the greatest in the world.

As for the cloverfield monster example, it's not necessarily a kaiju. We don't know what it is, really. It could just be a colossal magical beast. I made the comparison to the thunder behemoth because it has the right size, strength, and toughness to survive the same attacks and destroy things as easily as the other monster did (except the thunder behemoth wouldn't die, unlike the cloverfield monster). So that's why I left it at around CR18, which it most likely is.

I don't know if 90hp is enough to survive being sumerged in lava because of the additional 10d6 fire damage for 1d3 rounds after escaping.

Batman being level 15 sounds much nicer than being 30.


So from what I'm reading is that every impressive comic book character is around level 30, as if it's impossible to represent any of them using levels below 20 and maybe using mythic. Including batman being level 30.

That would mean batman can survive being submerged in lava naked.

Possibly Beat godzilla using melee only.

Fall off the Empire State Building several times and be fine.

Go hand-to-hand with multiple giant monsters at the same time, like the cloverfield monster and win (which is around the same CR as a thunder behemoth, CR 18) or pin something like 1998 godzilla to the ground with his hand tied behind his back.

Which, IMO, according to these levels tossed around would make Bane capable of these things, too.

I haven't been keeping up with batman recently so I don't know if he can do these things. If you guys really say so then I can't argue with it.


ACR and CR aren't too much different. A 1 man army is considered a fine army at -8 ACR, which is why you need to be high level to even have an ACR rating.

Plus, a 6th level fighter with greater cleave and lunge could conceivably end the entire 16 man fight with one standard action, if they are all surrounding him. A same level arcane caster with fireball can end the encounter even easier. Doesn't seem like a CR 8 challenge to me.

There's no way thousands of foot soldiers are going to be CR20+. They would be no match for something like a Thunder Behemoth, which is CR 18. Not only do they need natural 20s to hit it, they can't even bypass its DR at max damage. A better chance of beating a creature like this would be using a level 19 character.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

Firstly, you're nuts if you think a lv15 can take down an army of anything. lv15s can't even take down a brigade, let alone an army

Secondly, honestly, there is no "benefit" other than to codify how to do something to stop a lot of arguing over how to do this.

I suppose "strategic positioning" would be the benefit, since Grappling doesn't allow movement, but really, that's all I can think of. Most things can't attack the back of their own heads, their backs, etc., so you'd have a safe area to lay waste to a beasty, effectively

People have asked "how can you climb a very-big creature" a few times, and at least twice in so many days.

It's obvious that climbing a creature would be substantially different than trying to climb a wall, since walls typically don't move, and VERY typically don't actively try to kill you.

Some people say it's a grapple. I'm inclined to agree mostly with them, but can understand that even Grapple doesn't accurately represent what's going on there (a GWRD getting -4 to Dex from a medium creature hanging onto its toenail doesn't seem accurate in the least).

Others say it's "Ride" or "Climb" or "Acrobatics," but there's no real consensus on... ANYTHING. The only consensus is "there probably should be rules for this, all things considered," so, here are some that hopefully cover most contingencies, or at least offer a good framework, for such a rule.

Why can't a 15th level take down an army of anything? The mass combat chart in ultimate campaign agrees with me, as well the game's combat mechanics. A group of 1,000 foot soldiers(that is CR 1/3 each, which is probably higher than bilbo)would lose to any decently made 15th level whether it's played using the ACR system or just using the grid like normal.

Anyway, there are always some sort of benefit to combat maneuvers. There was a feat from 3.5 that was posted in another thread like this that made big creatures take a -4 penalty to attacking you if you were climbing it.


Maybe I'm not seeing it, but what are the benefits for scaling a monster in this maneuver?

While it may not make sense to you that a small creature could grapple a colossal monster, but I think using bilbo is an unfair comparison. Not all small creatures are like bilbo. Something like a 15th level halfling would be so far apart in power level compared to bilbo that the 15th level halfling can take down an army of bilbos.


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Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the physics of a typical dnd/pathfinder world would have to be different. After all, in our world, there is no known way to say words, move your hands around and produce explosions, or to fly, or so on, or to change the very nature of your being, or to create something from nothing, and so on. Magic is commonplace in a fantasy world. I have yet to read or see compelling evidence that a person could create such effects without some form of tool to do so. Or spontaneously gain mass, for that matter.

It's just fantasy. Just like in a movie where magic exists, it's existence doesn't mean that people can't fall off a roof top, get shot, or something similar and die from it, like real life. Just because superhuman PCs can survive anything and defy physics, this doesn't mean that physics some how does not apply to everybody else in the world.

Since you're comparing real life to this game. All that would be is a modern, no magic pathfinder setting. So now nobody can transform or fly.


People must not be reading the chart section at all if they think it caps at 10d6. After falling 150' the object deals double the listed damage.


I was thinking you might be able to ready an action to throw it before it explodes.


Pathfinder zombies can lose their heads and still attack, yet this has a higher CR than that?

Why can I only attack its head? You're forgetting that all types of creatures of different shape and size other than medium could potentially battle a "movie zombie." Would a colossal monster be limited to only attacking its head?


She has impressive abilities, but she doesn't have to be some CR 30 monstrosity that can beat every single monster in pathfinder because of this. Most of her abilities can be represented by using some levels from classes and mythic tiers.


Demon lords range from CR26-30. There are a number of statted demon lords that you could get some inspiration from. Check the PRD's bestiary 4 for some demon lords.


Probably conjuration... Maybe level 3.


kaisc006 wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Rambo is like 6th level.
I'd argue Rambo can't be depicted accurately in a d20 system. It's too balanced between hit points and abilities. Rambo is like a character with 6 Hit Die but 20 BAB.

I can't imagine why Rambo would need 20 bab. At that point he could shoot several gnats out of the air over 100' away with a bow like it was nothing.


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As far as the HD limitation, you could just make a level 5 NPC class with the template.


The game has drakes, wyverns, linnorms, creatures with the half dragon template, and a bunch of other creatures with the dragon type. You don't necessarily have to use those reality warping monstrosities like true dragons.


Shasfowd wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

Maybe you could make it cost twice or more of their speed to move a square (10'-15' to move one square) while the boss moves at normal speed.

Colossal monsters generally fit into a 30' square, even though they are much larger than that. That is because it was meant to make it easier to use and play with on the map and is not meant to be an accurate representation of the monster. So you don't need to necessarily make the creature occupy the exact same size of squares that the monster is.

The boss dosen't move. It is just there. Image you're on a bridge over a canyon, and a dragon attack you, but it's such a big dragon, you only fight its head. That's what it's like.

I guess for starters, you could shrink the map and make the boss occupy a bunch of squares with a giant reach. Players could move at 1/2 speed to represent how far they are from the boss.

I can probably think of more ideas that I'll post later.


Shasfowd wrote:
Shasfowd wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:

Am i the only one who read Hugo boss?

Now seriously what CR are you handling? is this monster epic?

I haven't decided yet, but I know it's gonna be a long fight.
It's less about the stats, and more about how you fit this thing into a map. These are LITERALLY the size of mountains. You're fighting a mountain.

Maybe you could make it cost twice or more of their speed to move a square (10'-15' to move one square) while the boss moves at normal speed.

Colossal monsters generally fit into a 30' square, even though they are much larger than that. That is because it was meant to make it easier to use and play with on the map and is not meant to be an accurate representation of the monster. So you don't need to necessarily make the creature occupy the exact same size of squares that the monster is.


Paulicus wrote:

Shadow of Colossus could provide some inspiration here. At that size, the boss is probably less like a 'boss' and more his own adventure/dungeon.

I remember hearing a story on these forums about someone who made a creature of that size (I remember the feet were 25' on a side or so) and it was moving towards a city. The PCs had to defend against it by targeting critical areas to weaken it. My point is, some kind of time element like that would be pretty neat.

For Shadow of the Colossus, they would be in the gargantuan and colossal range.

I don't know the CR range of your game, but you could start off with higher CR animals with the giant template to make them colossal and work from there (if it's a lower CR encounter).


Medusa heads (beheaded?)are in bestiary 4.

Templates, such as zombie, skeleton, giant, and shadow could be used on many monsters to create a number of various monsters. For example, take an elephant and apply the giant and skeleton template. Now you have a skeleton version of an oliphant from lord of the rings.


ElementalXX wrote:
It needs a energy attack or breath weapon, 1998 version had green fire thing attack, i feel a drake or a dragon would make a better base

I could throw on an additional mythic rank to grant it an ability from the universal monster rules (breath weapon). Other than that, I feel this build is pretty spot on. Making him a dragon or drake I feel is pretty inappropriate.


Tarantula wrote:

Doh!

You could.... feed the Tarrasque other animals/magical beasts that you have pup shaped?

Nah, it does a good enough job on its own, and it probably prefers to eat them at their normal size.

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