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Sheriff Belor Hemolock

Sauce987654321's page

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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
it's gigantic, I get that, but its dimension doesn't make sense for it. Its square space is a giant block, but the vehicle is not. Especially considering its square space can be formed in any fashion, going by the book. It shouldn't be fully 60 x 40

Well, the real Tsar Tank was 27 feet high. The one in Rasputin Must Die is 25. It sounds well rounded.

About filling fully the space: unless you are a bloated sumo champion wearing a big floater over a space suit, I doubt you fully fill a 5' x 5' square yourself. And I don't think I'll be able to find a horse who is 10' x 10' wide.

A horse needs probably that much space to move around and fight and turn "in place", and a Tsar Tank will probably need that much space to turn around and move, which means he can't share other creatures squares in that space unless he overruns them.

My point is that vehicles have different rules about square spaces.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Why include in a monster like that if the game is going to tell me that I can't fight it?

Who says you can't fight, and beat, a super Star destroyer, a Borg Cube, or a Death Star sized Space Whale????

Those are great challenges! You SHOULD be doing that kind of thibgs!

But you should fight that planet sized alien with your Millenium Falcon turbo blasters or your USS enterprise photon torpedoes. Not with your laser rifle, or your bare hands becsuse you have 2 monk levels

Or just give them hardness 50, but ship based weapons ignore 50 points of hardness
That's more or less what we are suggesting. "Ship scale" weapons having some short of rule to make them necessary to fight ship scale threats. DR\ship is a way. I don't think DR 50 will suffice, tho. A WWI tank in Pathfinder has almost 2000hp.
Hah, there's no way that's a WW1 tank. Did you look at its dimensions? It's the size of a small building.
It's actually a Tsar Tank

it's gigantic, I get that, but its dimension doesn't make sense for it. Its square space is a giant block, but the vehicle is not. Especially considering its square space can be formed in any fashion, going by the book. It shouldn't be fully 60 x 40


gustavo iglesias wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Why include in a monster like that if the game is going to tell me that I can't fight it?

Who says you can't fight, and beat, a super Star destroyer, a Borg Cube, or a Death Star sized Space Whale????

Those are great challenges! You SHOULD be doing that kind of thibgs!

But you should fight that planet sized alien with your Millenium Falcon turbo blasters or your USS enterprise photon torpedoes. Not with your laser rifle, or your bare hands becsuse you have 2 monk levels

Or just give them hardness 50, but ship based weapons ignore 50 points of hardness
That's more or less what we are suggesting. "Ship scale" weapons having some short of rule to make them necessary to fight ship scale threats. DR\ship is a way. I don't think DR 50 will suffice, tho. A WWI tank in Pathfinder has almost 2000hp.

Hah, there's no way that's a WW1 tank. Did you look at its dimensions? It's the size of a small building.


MMCJawa wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
stuff

If you were to emulate the deathstar in a pathfinder like game, you would treat the place as location, but give certain key structures like the power core and such hitpoints, and have PC's be able to destroy that.

I mean In Pathfinder, yeah a high level character can kill a Kaiju. But a High level character generally can't wipe out a major city just by swinging his sword at random pieces of ground or buildings.

I will be curious to see how they deal with starship combat, or if a lot of that is just kind of avoided in the same way Pathfinder generally doesn't spend much time on large scale mass combat.

Yeah, targeting weak points in a very large structure or vehicle is how I would handle it. I feel that it's the same way for larger monsters, in some fashion, but completely abstracted. Though I obviously have no issue with a medium creature completely overpowering a planetoid size monster because it's simply too powerful.

Sure, a high level martial has no real ability to swing his weapon a few times to destroy a city, but that just means they would have to take their time, I guess. Destroying cities is not much of an accomplishment compared to some of the things mentioned in certain creatures descriptions. Behemoths, for example, are said to have destroyed entire worlds because they're simply unstoppable. These same creatures can be solo'd by a single powerful PC.

But yeah, that's pretty much my whole opinion on big stuff, haha.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Colossal is the maximum size category, the only thing that changes from there on is size and reach, which is not influenced by CR

Well, the entire point of this conversation is that someone suggested that this should change, because there is too much "room" for colossal to fit all monsters from Godzilla to a planet-sized Green Lantern. I mean, it's the same -size modifier to hit a building or to hit the planet where that building is?

Quote:
Not to mention that a single X-wing destroyed the Death Star. It's not like the X-wing had to be the size of a planet to do this. I know it was a chain reaction, but the end result is still the end result.

It's completelly different to attack a nuclear generator inside a planet sized Battle Station, which can be done by anyone, and then the nuclear reactor exploding, than the same character hacking and slashing the Death Star into pieces.

The Hulk analogy is good, the problem is that players who chose to play with a scoundrel wielding a laser pistol will also be able to destroy planet sized battle stations (or, you know, Absalom itself), assuming the game is somewhat balanced and "scoundrel" and "raging barbarian" classes are in the same ballpark of damage.

I'm totally pro-epic stuff, and I understand that high level characters are close to demigods. I'm tottally fond of high level characters punching Shai Hulud to death, slicing Godzilla into pieces, and sniping Galactus with a single well placed headshot. BUT in a setting so open as this, there are some things that are far beyond that, such as planet-sized creatures, Solar-system sized ships, or Galaxy-sized energy beings older than gods.
Sure, we could handle those by giving them DR 1million\- and sixty million hp, and then making things like the Death Star cannon, or giant sized anti-matter missiles or whatever doing 2 million d6.
But it'll be a lot of die to roll, when it's not needed, imho.

EDIT: said otherwise: by rules, stone has 15hp per inch of thickness....

I'm not saying that characters need the ability to blow up planets and space stations with a pistol, or at all, but if they decide to add in creatures the size of an asteroid they should be beatable. Why include in a monster like that if the game is going to tell me that I can't fight it? That's no better than the GM putting themselves in the game as an enemy, and honestly it's just as lazy and unthoughtful. Now I know you're not telling me that's the way you want it, but that was my main issue when dealing with super sized creatures. Now that little issue could be solved by just not putting them in the game in general, not that I think they were in the first place, rather than have them there and basically say "you want to fight it? Nope. Too big."

I think statting the Death Star cannon is a lot more simple than it seems. While I think the base damage would be very high, I think there would be a lot more description than just pure numbers. I would have it as a high base damage and an object destruction effect on a colossal scale. This type of ruling is not much different than disintegrate. Disintegrate deals a maximum of 40d6, but it can still instantly destroy a 10-ft cube of nonliving matter, such as a stone wall. We all know disintegrate doesn't do 1,800 damage, but it still can destroy that much stone. Another good example is a Great Red Wyrm's melt stone ability that can target a 60-ft radius of stone to melt. The breath weapons base damage 24d10 damage, but it can still melt 21,600 hp worth of rock in one shot.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
gbonehead wrote:

Independent question: any chance Starfinder will try to address rules for sizes above colossal? Once we're dealing with starships and, theoretially, creatures the size of asteroids, it would be cool to have them actually be different at a fundamental level - kind of like swarms, where they're too small to be harmed by weapons - perhaps creatures above colossal are too large to be harmed by weapons more than 4 size categories smaller. There was a 3.5 book back in the day that had some above colossal rules, ah, Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary.

I seem to recall a mention of an attempt as part of the mythic rules (maybe it was along with kaiju), but with the design team deciding it was too large a task to sneak in. That's based on hazy recollection of old board posts, of course, the reality is probably different.

In any event, it's been a hole since kaiju were introduced; be cool to have it filled.

I would hate if they made larger colossal monsters/kaiju immune to smaller weapons and it wouldn't make sense if they even did that. Your overall ability to harm something should be determined by CR, not what size they are. That's the whole point in having very high AC, DR, and other resistances, to make something seem invincible to weaker creature.

If you don't like the idea that very high level PCs can harm Kaiju-like creatures, it's important to understand these PCs aren't ordinary warriors, like something you would see in a movie like Gladiator or Braveheart. They're godlike beings that are meant to accomplish the seemingly impossible.

Well, Kaijus are probably around Colossal size, or just a bit bigger than that. They should be possible to damage by normal sized heroes, probably.

However, we are not talking about the same scale here. Luke Skywalker destroying a AT-AT with his lightsaber? Totally cool. Luke Skywalkerdestroying the Death Star with his lightsaber? That's enterely different.

Colossal is the maximum size category, the only thing that changes from there on is size and reach, which is not influenced by CR.

As for the Luke example, maybe he's not powerful enough. Just because one popular character can't do something doesn't mean all characters should have this limitation. How about if we replace Luke Skywalker with the Hulk? It seems a lot more possible now.

Not to mention that a single X-wing destroyed the Death Star. It's not like the X-wing had to be the size of a planet to do this. I know it was a chain reaction, but the end result is still the end result.

Understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative, but pointlessly having rules that limits characters like that based on their size makes no sense. Why have a CR system, then?


gbonehead wrote:

Independent question: any chance Starfinder will try to address rules for sizes above colossal? Once we're dealing with starships and, theoretially, creatures the size of asteroids, it would be cool to have them actually be different at a fundamental level - kind of like swarms, where they're too small to be harmed by weapons - perhaps creatures above colossal are too large to be harmed by weapons more than 4 size categories smaller. There was a 3.5 book back in the day that had some above colossal rules, ah, Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary.

I seem to recall a mention of an attempt as part of the mythic rules (maybe it was along with kaiju), but with the design team deciding it was too large a task to sneak in. That's based on hazy recollection of old board posts, of course, the reality is probably different.

In any event, it's been a hole since kaiju were introduced; be cool to have it filled.

I would hate if they made larger colossal monsters/kaiju immune to smaller weapons and it wouldn't make sense if they even did that. Your overall ability to harm something should be determined by CR, not what size they are. That's the whole point in having very high AC, DR, and other resistances, to make something seem invincible to weaker creature.

If you don't like the idea that very high level PCs can harm Kaiju-like creatures, it's important to understand these PCs aren't ordinary warriors, like something you would see in a movie like Gladiator or Braveheart. They're godlike beings that are meant to accomplish the seemingly impossible.


The Mortonator wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You realize that the damage we're talking about is you wanting a non-legendary pokemon to melt the planet simply by existing right? I think it'd be a lot more reasonable that it's flamethrower attack deals at least 4d6 damage (which is how much damage a flamethrower does in Pathfinder), rather than infinite damage auto-apocalypse caused by slugma simply evolving into it.

You are sciencing wrong. Temperatures three times a Magcargo have existed on planet earth in the form of Lightning Bolts. Granted, they exist as a flash in the pan, but there is a huge difference between something's inner temperature and it's outer temperature.

Milo v3 wrote:
So? You're giving it power equal to a god.

Absolutely.

As The Sideromancer correctly points out, there are "normal" Pokemon that battle gods. And that's in terms of the Uber tier, where Pokemon are fought at their absolute best in a competitive format. A "wild god" is far less frightening and easy to take down. Heck, there are SEVERAL demi-gods and Regigigas in the PU tier. On par with Raticate.

In the Pokemon world, a rat will take on demi-gods. Oh, and the being that gave the world emotions is NU. Have fun!

I feel like bringing in leveling mechanics straight from the game boy games is going to make any conversions difficult, considering these notions like a "rat will take on demigods" wouldn't ever fly in the anime or manga. Maybe they do, I guess I never heard of it.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
StevenStag25 wrote:

I was just throwing out the challenge to stat up any pokemon you want to the people who feel like doing it.

And yeah, be a bit generous with the sizing on the pokemon.

What do you mean by being generous? It's probably better to give them the appropriate size categories as pathfinder would find them at, to also avoid any confusion. That being the case, there isn't any Pokemon that passes huge range, from what it seems like.
Some do, for example wailord exceeds colossal space limits at 47'7".

That's not how the game works, with size categories. A space of a monster doesn't tell you it's exact size because their abstracted and made for ease of use. For example, a sea serpent in bestiary 1 is 60-ft long and is a 20-ft square, where as one advanced to colossal is 300-ft long and is still a 30-ft square.


StevenStag25 wrote:

I was just throwing out the challenge to stat up any pokemon you want to the people who feel like doing it.

And yeah, be a bit generous with the sizing on the pokemon.

What do you mean by being generous? It's probably better to give them the appropriate size categories as pathfinder would find them at, to also avoid any confusion. That being the case, there isn't any Pokemon that passes huge range, from what it seems like.


VampByDay wrote:
In the movie, Smaug got hit by a bunch of flash powder, and then immersion in liquid gold, which quite obviously hurt him. He also got hit by a bunch of falling debris. After all that damage, who is to say that a single Balista Bolt of Dragon-Slaying couldn't finish the job?

Even if he didn't take damage before getting hit by the ballista, isn't meant to 1 shot him anyway? It's the item that's doing most of the work, so it doesn't matter if the character is e6, since someone above mentioned this. That's like if someone had a vorpal sword and one shots Godzilla because they got lucky. That doesn't mean the character with the vorpal weapon is somehow epic level.


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Really, Greater Teleport can allow you travel to other planets if you have some idea of where you are going. Interplanetary Teleport just does that much better.


I agree that you don't need to be higher than 6th level. You can still make powerful characters with only 6 levels.

I think the trolls in this movie resemble ogres in pathfinder. They fight and look like them, and I don't think they could regenerate any body part (including head) that's severed.

The stone giants are just best represented by colossal earth elementals in pathfinder. Judging by the hit dice and the pattern of their CR increase per size category, the stone giants would be about CR 15


Zhangar wrote:

In comparison, Sarenrae accidentally tore open Golarion all the way to the mantle with a single sword strike over at Gormuz.

Some fun with math -- the continental crust is about 25 miles thick, give or take a few miles for elevation. Stone has 15 HP per inch. So the crust is approximately 1,584,000 inches.

Meaning that Sarenrae potentially struck the entire city of Gormuz for about 23,760,000 damage with a single melee attack.

(Though it's more likely she "merely" struck for 2 to 3 million damage instead, since she was expecting to just crater the city, not punch through to the mantle. But Rovagug had been weakening the region, and thus greatly reducing the amount of "smite" needed to bust it all the way open.)

Now, with that number in mind for Sarenrae's basic melee attack, remember that she needed the back up of about a dozen beings just as powerful as she was just to subdue Rovagug long enough to imprison him.

Here's the thing with this; I think it's a bad idea to attempt to recreate an effect like that through damage, alone. As an example, a Great Red Wyrm's "Melt Stone" ability with its breath weapon allows it to melt stone in a 60-ft radius. It could target the ground and melt that deep in to solid stone, and it wasn't because it just inflicted 10,800 damage with its breath weapon. This shows me that creating a creator that large was simply an application of her melee attack.

Anyway, the GM is pretty much always in control of a Great Red Wyrm. This being the case, the dragon can cast wish for its greater effect, choosing to exponentially increase the radius of its next use of melt stone, GM approves, now said dragon proceeds to melt an entire mountain. It's all perfectly RAW, as well. A GM doesn't necessarily need a deity to do some serious destruction.


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Since ending worlds is in discussion, that's something that's said Behemoths do in their description.


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I just assumed that since the max power level of a demon lord/archdevil/empyreal lord is 30, a pathfinder deity would be CR31+. I already consider creatures/PCs that are about CR 18+ to already be godlike. When there are creatures that are relatively invulnerable to most physical/energy attacks, that can fly, change weather, resurrect others, teleport, lift giant objects, able to regenerate from dust, and live forever, I think it's pretty easy to use them as a stand-in for a deity. Especially creatures with miracle/wish, as the power level of these spells is only limited by the GM, because if the GM wanted to those spells can literally do anything, according to RAW.


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Tacticslion wrote:

Perhaps!

Firearms, seige engines, and tanks are a fair starting baseline in that case, and those are... pretty potent. (Also hardness/energy damage halving of metals compared to their effects in a given universe against weaponry.)

Nonetheless, those are just guesses and baselines - until actual Starfinder rules come out, we're left just as ad hocing things from our own guess works and particular need preferences. :)

Jeez, what kind of tank is that. That thing is like more than 3 times the size of an Abrams tank.


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Tacticslion wrote:
I just assumed they were using the numbers from Star Wars d20 in their calculations.

maybe, but things always get rebalanced when converted into pathfinder.


Imbicatus wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
DeathMvp wrote:

I have GM'ed a home game that was the D20 Starwars with the pathfinder class brough in from a back water world. It was alot of playing with it to work but may and my group had fun with it. Magic was intresting to play with to work with space ships but we got it to work.

The best was when a Collosal Gold Dragon did battle with a Star destroyer.

Unless Lasers did fire damage, the star destroyer would have completely destroyed the dragon. Even then, ion cannons and missile launchers should have chewed it to pieces. A colossal dragon would only be the size of a Corellian corvette. We all saw how well that went in the opening scene of A New Hope.
it probably wouldn't be at all harmed if it chooses to use its magic to protect itself from those attacks. It's a 9th level caster that has access to tons of anti-tech spells, it's not like it's just big monster.

What magic though? Wall of Force and it's like will be breached quickly, as will stone skin. Anti-tech field will stop projectiles and lasers, but not explosions.

It could avoid the ship with no problem, but if It just tried to buff up and attack it, it's got at best a 50% chance of winning, especially when you include the ships shields and tractor beams to immobilize it.

I don't know why wall of force is going to go down quickly, if used. I don't think we should assume that its weapons are going to instantly do astronomical amounts of damage like we've never seen, because it probably would be balanced like everything else in this game. If anything, it's weapons, like its lasers, could function like a colossal laser pistol/rifle, which is like 8d6 or so damage.

The anti tech field does have an effect against explosives. It's so they don't hit the dragon directly and instead force a saving throw to half the damage.

It doesn't need stone skin. It has its own DR.

I honestly don't think the tractor beams might be all that effective. Vehicles always had low saves and CMD, while the dragon's is going to very high. Again, I'm not going to assume it's weapon is going to just dominate the dragon like it's nothing.


Imbicatus wrote:
DeathMvp wrote:

I have GM'ed a home game that was the D20 Starwars with the pathfinder class brough in from a back water world. It was alot of playing with it to work but may and my group had fun with it. Magic was intresting to play with to work with space ships but we got it to work.

The best was when a Collosal Gold Dragon did battle with a Star destroyer.

Unless Lasers did fire damage, the star destroyer would have completely destroyed the dragon. Even then, ion cannons and missile launchers should have chewed it to pieces. A colossal dragon would only be the size of a Corellian corvette. We all saw how well that went in the opening scene of A New Hope.

it probably wouldn't be at all harmed if it chooses to use its magic to protect itself from those attacks. It's a 9th level caster that has access to tons of anti-tech spells, it's not like it's just big monster.


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Avoron wrote:
Veilgn wrote:

Just transfwr tarrasque to the sun.

Let see what happends.

Yes, let's.

The tarrasque is immune to fire, but it's certainly not immune to pressure. In Pathfinder, water does approximately 1d6 points of pressure damage per 100 feet (2.95 atmospheres of pressure) per minute, for an average of about 0.119 damage per atmosphere per round. If we assumes this increases proportionally for absurd pressures from inside a star (seems as good a guess as any), and we assume that Golarion's sun has similar central pressures to our own (around 250 billion atmospheres, apparently), we can calculate the amount of damage the tarrasque will be taking: 250 billion x 0.119 = 29.75 billion damage every round. In other words, every round spent inside the sun translates to about 140 years of regeneration. The tarrasque, meanwhile, must go into hibernation for the lack of breathable air. This makes it immune to any effect that could determine its location, and it has no means of regaining consciousness or escaping the sun on its own.

Sweet dreams!

If we go by those rules, the Tarrasque has about 200 rounds (20 minutes) before it starts to be threatened by the pressure. The fortitude save starts at 15 +1 for each minute each save. It has no where to go, though, so either way it works fine.


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There's always a giant template Hydra for a CR5 gargantuan :D

If you want to be a little creative. There are templates like the mutant template in bestiary 5.


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Malwing wrote:
You know the only reason why RAW seeing the sun doesn't work is because nobody bothered to make size rules past colossal size. I was having similar problems just now because I've been trying to find out exactly how big the Tarrasque is to solidify some house rules. Personally I think once it's past double 64-128ft then the monster should have some environmental rules so that you can interact with it as if it were not a creature sometimes (climb it like in Shadow of the Colossus.)

The Tarrasque can swallow a Brachiosaurus whole (gargantuan size) if that helps you judge its size.

Shadow of the Colossus has almost nothing that reaches 100' in height, so climbing something like that is probably best left as a feat rather than a monster's quality.


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Since the Balrog is being brought up, and while I disagree that it shares the same power as the Balor, this would be a good stand in for it (at least the film version).


For me, I have players play in a specific setting of my preferences only as I won't be able to play that same exact setting in someone else's game. My goal is to get them to like it for similar reasons as I do while we all have a blast.


I know this doesn't add to anything, but the statblock for the level 16 "CR 14" King is the sorriest and most pathetic "CR 14" I've ever seen, haha. It's really more like CR 6 or 7 at best.


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GreyWolfLord wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

Don't discount technology. In Pathfinder a rifle bullet does 1d8 more or less damage.

In real life...that bullet kills you dead no matter WHAT "level" you are. I suppose you could compare it to a death spell, but even more deadly in the hands of an expert shooter.

To be fair, a normal person would have 1d6+con in hit points. And people do regularly survive being shot. But that 1d8 damage CAN kill a normal person. Adventurers wouldn't be considered normal.

But how long would that level 13 wizard last under the fire from a chaingun or m16 assault rifle? Or dozens of assault rifles? Or hundreds of assault rifles? Would a sniper bullet to the head be considered a ranged cdg that doesn't require the target to be helpless?

It doesn't matter HOW MANY HP you have, 1 bullet will kill you.

an elephant in PF has 11d8...one bullet can kill an elephant.

A Whale has 15d8, a bullet (or even one harpoon [which is actually better in whaling...bullets have to some special modifications in the whale's case) properly done can kill them.

Apparantly, we have harpoonest and sharpshooters that can hit at least an AC of 28 or better...

Sometimes FAR more consistently than someone with a 20 BAB even, (meaning they won't miss on a natural 1, they miss less than 1% of the time).

That would put their BAB somewhere in the range of 30 or 40, maybe even 50...(even if we say they do miss 5% of the time somehow)...meaning these snipers and others could be over 30th or 40th level!

And we have many of them.

Our weapons aren't the wimpy PF weapons...the Gun and all the types of ammunition are like Death Spells.

Anyone can have the ability to buy the appropriate death spell, and with enough training, actually use it effectively.

We haven't even gotten into the REALLY decent military weapons yet, and heck, not even close to the heavy weapons a tank might carry (and the armor to prevent it from being destroyed by the same), or the super weapons...

Yes, one bullet can kill any of these creatures in real life and in game. If a creature is in a helpless condition or even treated as such (like standing there and allowing for an opportunity to get shot in the head, though it's a GM's call) is most likely to die from a coup de grace from a high critical multiplying weapon like a gun.

Same with the harpoon example. If a creature is bound and helpless, you can auto hit with any weapon. It doesn't matter if they have 1,000 AC, they still get hit, critted, and forced to save or die. And like with any animal, they pretty much have no special defenses like many magical beasts do, so they are in a pretty bad position.


Imbicatus wrote:
Besides, it's not like King Kong was just a Megaprimatus. He was a Giant, Advanced, Megaprimatus.

King Kong isn't colossal, IMO he isn't even gargantuan.


Lol idk. Neothelid with half dragon template for a giant psychic dragon.


Well this has been fun to read. Now I'm just wondering when Game of Thrones characters start being compared to high level fighters.


LazarX wrote:

You can't swallow whole something several size categories larger than yourself. You have to be at least 3 sizes larger than your meal.

And if your character is that freaking large, you're way out of scale for anything we'd discuss.

You only need to be 1 higher to swallow, but it's no good since colossal is the highest size category.


thejeff wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.

If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.

Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.

Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.

Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.

but we're not talking Mythic Rules, we're talking normal rules.

And we're talking those Strength scores, not just lift-and-carry. Throw a spell of Giant form on the first level guy and he can lift and carry tons, too. Not quite the point I'm trying to make, here.

Spiderman can jump a ten story building. he can effectively run 100 mph+. He can see bullets and dodge them. He essentially has perfect hand-eye coordination and balance, as well as exceptional recuperation abilities and stamina when fighting.

Yeah, but if your talking about people that can do that sort of thing those are the rules they would fall into. So Spider-Man would likely have 32 strength plus the mythic ability. They wouldn't just give him a whopping 52. Just like jumping very high, covered by a mythic ability, as they wouldn't give him +400 on acrobatics.

As for hand eye coordination and seeing bullets, monks can catch bullets at like level 2. As for running fast, there's a feat that allows you to have 50% concealment while running. IDK how fast that translates to, but being nearly invisible while running sounds pretty fast.

Except there's no indication that Spider-man has special strength for lifting things. He punches things really hard too. Every game...

Just about any martial has the ability to hit way harder than their strength normally allows because of modifiers and feats.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

You're missing the point Sauce.

The Mythic rules were a mistake. They kind of sort of bring martials up to roughly where they should be in the normal rules [barring a few outlier abilities that don't belong, and a few generic 'mythic crushes nonmythic just because' rules] but then they take casters up to 11.

I agree those rules should be normal for martial characters, but since it's not the case the mythic rules is where many of those Marvel characters would fall into. I was just bringing that up since that's how the game in its current state would handle it.


Aelryinth wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.

If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.

Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.

Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.

Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.

but we're not talking Mythic Rules, we're talking normal rules.

And we're talking those Strength scores, not just lift-and-carry. Throw a spell of Giant form on the first level guy and he can lift and carry tons, too. Not quite the point I'm trying to make, here.

Spiderman can jump a ten story building. he can effectively run 100 mph+. He can see bullets and dodge them. He essentially has perfect hand-eye coordination and balance, as well as exceptional recuperation abilities and stamina when fighting.

All of which are incredibly high priced in the game itself.

==Aelryinth

Yeah, but if your talking about people that can do that sort of thing those are the rules they would fall into. So Spider-Man would likely have 32 strength plus the mythic ability. They wouldn't just give him a whopping 52. Just like jumping very high, covered by a mythic ability, as they wouldn't give him +400 on acrobatics.

As for hand eye coordination and seeing bullets, monks can catch bullets at like level 2. As for running fast, there's a feat that allows you to have 50% concealment while running. IDK how fast that translates to, but being nearly invisible while running sounds pretty fast.


Rhedyn wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.
Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
His speed per move action is 40ft with the run feet.
Speed is usually abstracted, hence my cat and leopard example. That being the case, I'd have his speed at 30 with the run feat.
Not according to the math. Usane bolt would have to be a level 3 commoner in PF with fleet, fleet, and run.

Yes, but in game where things are abstracted and not absolute that might not be the case. Leopards can run 35+ mph, but still have 30 speed and high dex. Another example is the lightning stance feat, where you run so fast that you have 50% concealment. Even with concealment from running, you still have 30 land speed, but you still have to meet a 17 dex requirement. So it would seem speed can be represented through dexterity, too, because speed is another abstraction.


Rhedyn wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.
Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
His speed per move action is 40ft with the run feet.

Speed is usually abstracted, hence my cat and leopard example. That being the case, I'd have his speed at 30 with the run feat.


Rhedyn wrote:
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.

Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.


Aelryinth wrote:

PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.

If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.

Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.

Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.

Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.


It's interesting how martial characters always have their super human status questioned in every thread like this one. I've even read in another big thread how navy seals are similar to higher level martials because of how skilled and deadly they are in combat. I thought it was pretty funny, actually.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The DC represents the chance to break free while in combat in a single round. You can keep trying until you succeed. While you normally can’t take 20 on an ability check, I would allow this. Since taking twenty is basically a way to speed up the game instead of making the character actually keep rolling until they get a twenty it amounts to the same thing.

So that means that any character with a STR score of 20 will eventually get out of a net. The trap requires a STR score of 22.

yes you can take 20s on an ability check.


Claxon wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Adagna wrote:
Claxon wrote:

If a person has chosen to make themselves helpless, then sure they are helpless.

But no, almost no one would choose that except for some weird confluence of events. Certainly, someone being "held hostage" is not going to choose to make themselves helpless to their attacker.

The act of not struggling is their choice to make them self helpless. If someone puts a gun to your head and says "nobody move or I shoot", and you as a hostage don't move... you have chosen to be helpless. If you slam your head backwards in a headbutt or reach up to disarm or squirm to turn and face the attacker... then you have chosen to not be helpless.

If you as a hostage comply with the "don't move or I shoot" command then you are choosing to make yourself helpless.

So yes, quite a few people who are intimidated/timid/value their life will make them self helpless and see what happens rather then risk grave bodily injury.

Interesting point of view, but it doesn't have to be limp passive resistance OR full out attacking your grappler.

Choosing not to be helpless does not obligate you to attack.

You simply make a choice to not become helpless, no more, no less.

It doesn't force actions, visible or otherwise.

Agreed.

Also, in the game where provided you don't make yourself helpless you have a substantially better chance of actually surviving an encounter like this then you do if you made yourself helpless.

This is a game not real life, provided you have enough HP things don't risk killing you in a single hit.

At level 1, a barbarian vs a gunslinger, the barbarian should have no fear of ever being killed by a single shot because he has 12+ con hit points and a musket will only do 1d12.

The game isn't designed to simulate real life, things are not meant to instantly kill here. The problem is you want the game to be like real life, where a gunshot to the head almost guarantees death. But the rules don't support such a...

a shot to the head could also be a crit, so that'd be 4d12. The problem isn't that the game can't do realism; the problem is that people try to shoehorn everything into a realistic setting. So you end up with all of these house rules that deal with lava, falling, explosives, and guns so they can easily kill off even high level characters, when really the situation should be replaced with first level NPCs with single digit health.


I don't think allowing yourself to be helpless is or should be explicitly stated in the rules. It's right up there with denying your own dexterity to your AC or having to go to the bathroom, because having those rules written in the game really does nothing for the game and only serves to take more pages up. That being the case, it's just another GM thing.

As far as how the GM can handle it, the GM can always have the weapon deal max damage. I think it's unnecessary, because guns usually are x4 crit and your coup de gracing the target.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
As far as other peoples comments go, that's perfectly fine if you want to make guns matrix style in your games but base PF was built around martials having more realism than fantasy (with exception to SU and SP abilities) so it would target FF normally and then you could rule it back to Touch, you're the GM after all. However at the same time, I would argue that the armor in your fantasy setting would also be special and would stop said matrix bullets so to me it sounds like full AC would apply, but once again, up to you.
In any case it would not target flatfooted at all, because you're not only dealing with armored humanoid encounters. Dexterity also can mean that the target is fast moving, such as cats, insects, and birds, for example.

The lack of accuracy in the weapons and the fact that not every hit is a direct hit (and even when they are, they don't just punch through plating) is why it "wouldn't" target touch. You can't dodge a bullet in real life so once you aim your super inaccurate gun, its just up to the luck of the dice or in real life the chance the bullet flies towards the target and doesn't veer off, it isn't about the person reacting to it. Dodging the aim of a gun doesn't really work either just in that its equally hard to dodge a bows aim in real life since all I have to do is twitch my aim a couple degrees for every 3-5ft you displace yourself, and its not like it gets better if you get closer since I can fire it and then you wont react in time, especially against a bullet.

Animals have very thick skin and fur, there are weapons from the modern day that cant get past a bear's greasy fur (9mms, more often then not, will also not puncture a human skull on the first hit). Your argument that animal hides wont stop or hinder a bullet from a early firearm is not based on fact and certainly doesn't apply when we would have things like dragon hides thrown into the mix. AC isn't stop an attacks success, its making it less likely:...

What? I was saying that it shouldn't target flatfooted is all I was saying. I do agree that firearms shouldn't target touch, but that's not what I meant. My example of animals was a reason why it shouldn't target flatfooted.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
As far as other peoples comments go, that's perfectly fine if you want to make guns matrix style in your games but base PF was built around martials having more realism than fantasy (with exception to SU and SP abilities) so it would target FF normally and then you could rule it back to Touch, you're the GM after all. However at the same time, I would argue that the armor in your fantasy setting would also be special and would stop said matrix bullets so to me it sounds like full AC would apply, but once again, up to you.

In any case it would not target flatfooted at all, because you're not only dealing with armored humanoid encounters. Dexterity also can mean that the target is fast moving, such as cats, insects, and birds, for example.


alexd1976 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I'm glad firearms don't target flatfooted. I don't see anything wrong with someone dodging your bullets matrix style. This is a fantasy game after all.

I love that you can actually deflect them with a feat too.

It rarely comes up, and is totally awesome on the rare occasions it does. :D

Don't forget that you can catch them, too.

What I really like is that in the firearms rules it calls out those feats specifically and says that they work on bullets, just to make sure nobody says otherwise.


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I'm glad firearms don't target flatfooted. I don't see anything wrong with someone dodging your bullets matrix style. This is a fantasy game after all.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The oozaru form shouldn't have a a Dex penalty. When Vegeta transformed he still was insanely fast and maybe even more than in humanoid form

Dexterity =/= Speed.

You can be slow as a glacier and extremely dextrous; conversely, you can be fast as lightning and still be a clumsy f@@!.

Well not as far as the actual base speed mechanic, but dex does seem to be an abstraction for being "fast." I figured this when I noticed cats and leopards have high dex but still have a land speed of 30. Another example would be when running a chase, because you use mainly dex based skills to determine the outcome while speed only gives you bonuses.

But I do agree that Great Apes should have a dex penalty, because everything that grows larger in pathfinder has dex penalties. I don't think Vegeta should be an exception.


I didn't mind how the hp system worked when I accepted the fact that mid level characters are pretty much super human, and high level to 20th level characters have more in common with gods rather than real life people.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Speaking of Kaiju... I always wanted to do a Kaiju campaign. Culminating in an OMFGEPIC Showdown of Ultimate Destiny between all the Kaiju that have rules so far, some Behemoths, Colossi, and of course, the Spawn of Rovagug.

Basically, I want to take my PCs against Colossal sized opponents regularly, with truly epic Shadow of the Colossus styled climbing of the huge creatures kind of gameplay.

I remember in 3.5 there was a feat that allows you to climb giant enemies. I forgot it, though.

You can always use a giant template on gargantuan creatures to make lower CR colossal enemies, like a roc, t-rex, sea serpent etc.


I don't see much of a resemblance between drogon and a young red dragon. Drogon can't speak common, doesn't have magic, and doesn't even have as many limbs. In pathfinder terms, it'd be a drake.

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