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Sheriff Belor Hemolock

Sauce987654321's page

565 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Melkiador wrote:
How could Batman have a low level with all of the XP he must have accrued? Consider how many CR appropriate encounters he has participated in.

We were talking about movie batman (dark knight) on this page, not the comic one.


What I would love to have is an "advanced bestiary guide" or something of that sort. It would be like the advanced race guide in how you build races, except it would be with monsters.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.

That's fair. At least depending on what you mean by 'lower level'. The version of Batman from 'The Dark Knight', in Pathfinder, is likely an 8th to 9th level Gestalt Brawler/Slayer (not an Investigator basically because he lacks anywhere near the gadgetry of most other versions) with a few shiny toys...but that's hardly the definitive version of the character, IMO.

And he's in a world where most other people max out at 6th level for the most part, and are usually lower, with a few individual and very specific exceptions like The Joker or Bane (who are on par with him). The world likely caps at 10th or so as a hard limit.

I don't see a reason for him to be a Gestalt. If I thought he should be a Gestalt, then I don't see any reason not to make any other character from any movie a Gestalt as well. Multiclass, sure.

As for a level. Like 4-6 maybe? I put him there because I don't think he would be a good match alone against a huge sized dinosaur, like a triceratops. I mean if he was outmatched by bane at one point, I don't see why he would be able to hold his own against something like 2 pyrohydras or an oliphant from LOTR (elephant with the giant template, maybe advanced).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.

Sure. But if Batman is Mythic, clearly so are his peers. Indeed, he's likely lower-tier than basically any other member of the Justice League, and than many of his foes. So...he still needs high level to be better than them and the foes they face.

I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.


You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

To elaborate - an average well-trained infantry soldier would probably be about a lv5 Fighter. Again, we're going with Wounds & Vitality here as the Health meter.

A Troop of 16 such soldiers are a CR13 encounter.

This would be an "Easy" fight for 3 lv15 Characters (APL14 vs CR13).

However, 3 such groupings would be a CR16 encounter, and classified as "Hard" (APL14 vs CR16)

A "Hard" encounter for 3 lv15 characters is 48 lv5 infantrymen.

This fits in fine with characters like Indie, John McClain, even Bond.

48 lv5s is an "Easy" Fight for just about 2 of any members of the Justice League.

48 lv5s might be a "Tough" fight for 2 members of the Titans, possibly, but for the big guys - the ones in the League - that's just a Sunday afternoon stroll.

Darkseid can solo an army of hundreds to thousands of CR5s. Those are encounters of up to and above CR25.

Using that model, it becomes pretty apparent just how high-level characters like Batman have to be in order to solo someone like Darkseid, since Batman doesn't have the Racial abilities of someone like Superman, or a Magic-Item-bordering-on-Minor-Artifact like the Green Lanterns.

I have a really hard time believing a real life trained soldier is CR 5 when your average huge sized pyro hydra comes in at CR 6, not unless they are all like Percy Jackson from the lightning thief.

John McClain and Indiana Jones are not CR15, not even put together. Going back to an earlier example of 1998 Godzilla, which comes in about CR13 - 14 (spinosaurus with giant, advanced, and savage template). Do you think john and indie have a chance of going toe-to-toe with a titanic sized saurian that's big enough to swallow whales whole and can tank direct rocket attacks and automatic gun fire? That's a true level 15 challenge.

It's no wonder why people think all super heroes are all epic level when people think James Bond or Indiana Jones are appropriate CR 15 challenges.


Yeah, I don't recall the cloverfield monster being big enough to devour something like that whole. You might not be remembering the creature too well.

I see what the problem is now with your assumptions. You're assuming creatures of the same size category are basically the same size. This is very untrue. The behemoth can also swallow a brachiosaurus, which is 85' long and 32 tons, or a flesh colossus, which is around 60' tall and 75 tons. All of these are gargantuan.

A kraken isn't T-rex sized, because it's nearly 100' long.


The Thunder Behemoth isn't big enough? Ehh, that's kind of a bold statement, lol. The Thunder Behemoth can swallow entire sperm whales and even Krakens whole and fit them in to its 5 stomachs. So yes, it can carry 5 Krakens in its 5 stomachs. Waaaay larger than a diplodocus.


You don't have to be level 20 to be the greatest in the world, that only depends on the campaign setting. If the best is 6, then you become 7, you are now the greatest in the world.

As for the cloverfield monster example, it's not necessarily a kaiju. We don't know what it is, really. It could just be a colossal magical beast. I made the comparison to the thunder behemoth because it has the right size, strength, and toughness to survive the same attacks and destroy things as easily as the other monster did (except the thunder behemoth wouldn't die, unlike the cloverfield monster). So that's why I left it at around CR18, which it most likely is.

I don't know if 90hp is enough to survive being sumerged in lava because of the additional 10d6 fire damage for 1d3 rounds after escaping.

Batman being level 15 sounds much nicer than being 30.


So from what I'm reading is that every impressive comic book character is around level 30, as if it's impossible to represent any of them using levels below 20 and maybe using mythic. Including batman being level 30.

That would mean batman can survive being submerged in lava naked.

Possibly Beat godzilla using melee only.

Fall off the Empire State Building several times and be fine.

Go hand-to-hand with multiple giant monsters at the same time, like the cloverfield monster and win (which is around the same CR as a thunder behemoth, CR 18) or pin something like 1998 godzilla to the ground with his hand tied behind his back.

Which, IMO, according to these levels tossed around would make Bane capable of these things, too.

I haven't been keeping up with batman recently so I don't know if he can do these things. If you guys really say so then I can't argue with it.


ACR and CR aren't too much different. A 1 man army is considered a fine army at -8 ACR, which is why you need to be high level to even have an ACR rating.

Plus, a 6th level fighter with greater cleave and lunge could conceivably end the entire 16 man fight with one standard action, if they are all surrounding him. A same level arcane caster with fireball can end the encounter even easier. Doesn't seem like a CR 8 challenge to me.

There's no way thousands of foot soldiers are going to be CR20+. They would be no match for something like a Thunder Behemoth, which is CR 18. Not only do they need natural 20s to hit it, they can't even bypass its DR at max damage. A better chance of beating a creature like this would be using a level 19 character.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

Firstly, you're nuts if you think a lv15 can take down an army of anything. lv15s can't even take down a brigade, let alone an army

Secondly, honestly, there is no "benefit" other than to codify how to do something to stop a lot of arguing over how to do this.

I suppose "strategic positioning" would be the benefit, since Grappling doesn't allow movement, but really, that's all I can think of. Most things can't attack the back of their own heads, their backs, etc., so you'd have a safe area to lay waste to a beasty, effectively

People have asked "how can you climb a very-big creature" a few times, and at least twice in so many days.

It's obvious that climbing a creature would be substantially different than trying to climb a wall, since walls typically don't move, and VERY typically don't actively try to kill you.

Some people say it's a grapple. I'm inclined to agree mostly with them, but can understand that even Grapple doesn't accurately represent what's going on there (a GWRD getting -4 to Dex from a medium creature hanging onto its toenail doesn't seem accurate in the least).

Others say it's "Ride" or "Climb" or "Acrobatics," but there's no real consensus on... ANYTHING. The only consensus is "there probably should be rules for this, all things considered," so, here are some that hopefully cover most contingencies, or at least offer a good framework, for such a rule.

Why can't a 15th level take down an army of anything? The mass combat chart in ultimate campaign agrees with me, as well the game's combat mechanics. A group of 1,000 foot soldiers(that is CR 1/3 each, which is probably higher than bilbo)would lose to any decently made 15th level whether it's played using the ACR system or just using the grid like normal.

Anyway, there are always some sort of benefit to combat maneuvers. There was a feat from 3.5 that was posted in another thread like this that made big creatures take a -4 penalty to attacking you if you were climbing it.


Maybe I'm not seeing it, but what are the benefits for scaling a monster in this maneuver?

While it may not make sense to you that a small creature could grapple a colossal monster, but I think using bilbo is an unfair comparison. Not all small creatures are like bilbo. Something like a 15th level halfling would be so far apart in power level compared to bilbo that the 15th level halfling can take down an army of bilbos.


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Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the physics of a typical dnd/pathfinder world would have to be different. After all, in our world, there is no known way to say words, move your hands around and produce explosions, or to fly, or so on, or to change the very nature of your being, or to create something from nothing, and so on. Magic is commonplace in a fantasy world. I have yet to read or see compelling evidence that a person could create such effects without some form of tool to do so. Or spontaneously gain mass, for that matter.

It's just fantasy. Just like in a movie where magic exists, it's existence doesn't mean that people can't fall off a roof top, get shot, or something similar and die from it, like real life. Just because superhuman PCs can survive anything and defy physics, this doesn't mean that physics some how does not apply to everybody else in the world.

Since you're comparing real life to this game. All that would be is a modern, no magic pathfinder setting. So now nobody can transform or fly.


People must not be reading the chart section at all if they think it caps at 10d6. After falling 150' the object deals double the listed damage.


I was thinking you might be able to ready an action to throw it before it explodes.


Pathfinder zombies can lose their heads and still attack, yet this has a higher CR than that?

Why can I only attack its head? You're forgetting that all types of creatures of different shape and size other than medium could potentially battle a "movie zombie." Would a colossal monster be limited to only attacking its head?


She has impressive abilities, but she doesn't have to be some CR 30 monstrosity that can beat every single monster in pathfinder because of this. Most of her abilities can be represented by using some levels from classes and mythic tiers.


Demon lords range from CR26-30. There are a number of statted demon lords that you could get some inspiration from. Check the PRD's bestiary 4 for some demon lords.


Probably conjuration... Maybe level 3.


kaisc006 wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Rambo is like 6th level.
I'd argue Rambo can't be depicted accurately in a d20 system. It's too balanced between hit points and abilities. Rambo is like a character with 6 Hit Die but 20 BAB.

I can't imagine why Rambo would need 20 bab. At that point he could shoot several gnats out of the air over 100' away with a bow like it was nothing.


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As far as the HD limitation, you could just make a level 5 NPC class with the template.


The game has drakes, wyverns, linnorms, creatures with the half dragon template, and a bunch of other creatures with the dragon type. You don't necessarily have to use those reality warping monstrosities like true dragons.


Shasfowd wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

Maybe you could make it cost twice or more of their speed to move a square (10'-15' to move one square) while the boss moves at normal speed.

Colossal monsters generally fit into a 30' square, even though they are much larger than that. That is because it was meant to make it easier to use and play with on the map and is not meant to be an accurate representation of the monster. So you don't need to necessarily make the creature occupy the exact same size of squares that the monster is.

The boss dosen't move. It is just there. Image you're on a bridge over a canyon, and a dragon attack you, but it's such a big dragon, you only fight its head. That's what it's like.

I guess for starters, you could shrink the map and make the boss occupy a bunch of squares with a giant reach. Players could move at 1/2 speed to represent how far they are from the boss.

I can probably think of more ideas that I'll post later.


Shasfowd wrote:
Shasfowd wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:

Am i the only one who read Hugo boss?

Now seriously what CR are you handling? is this monster epic?

I haven't decided yet, but I know it's gonna be a long fight.
It's less about the stats, and more about how you fit this thing into a map. These are LITERALLY the size of mountains. You're fighting a mountain.

Maybe you could make it cost twice or more of their speed to move a square (10'-15' to move one square) while the boss moves at normal speed.

Colossal monsters generally fit into a 30' square, even though they are much larger than that. That is because it was meant to make it easier to use and play with on the map and is not meant to be an accurate representation of the monster. So you don't need to necessarily make the creature occupy the exact same size of squares that the monster is.


Paulicus wrote:

Shadow of Colossus could provide some inspiration here. At that size, the boss is probably less like a 'boss' and more his own adventure/dungeon.

I remember hearing a story on these forums about someone who made a creature of that size (I remember the feet were 25' on a side or so) and it was moving towards a city. The PCs had to defend against it by targeting critical areas to weaken it. My point is, some kind of time element like that would be pretty neat.

For Shadow of the Colossus, they would be in the gargantuan and colossal range.

I don't know the CR range of your game, but you could start off with higher CR animals with the giant template to make them colossal and work from there (if it's a lower CR encounter).


Medusa heads (beheaded?)are in bestiary 4.

Templates, such as zombie, skeleton, giant, and shadow could be used on many monsters to create a number of various monsters. For example, take an elephant and apply the giant and skeleton template. Now you have a skeleton version of an oliphant from lord of the rings.


ElementalXX wrote:
It needs a energy attack or breath weapon, 1998 version had green fire thing attack, i feel a drake or a dragon would make a better base

I could throw on an additional mythic rank to grant it an ability from the universal monster rules (breath weapon). Other than that, I feel this build is pretty spot on. Making him a dragon or drake I feel is pretty inappropriate.


Tarantula wrote:

Doh!

You could.... feed the Tarrasque other animals/magical beasts that you have pup shaped?

Nah, it does a good enough job on its own, and it probably prefers to eat them at their normal size.


I3igAl wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Berselius wrote:


Ah, well, you've already have a problem then. See, Roland Emmerich's idiotic and pathetic excuse for a monster is NOT Godzilla. His monster is called "Zilla" (seriously, it's LEGALLY CALLED that now). It also goes by the titles: "Iguanasaurus" and "massive waste of Hollywood's time and money to produce a substandard piece of crap"
I wanted to stat this version because it's much easier, which I already pinned it at about CR 14.

I agree I would have gone around CR 15 myself.

For comparison a Brachiosaurus is Gargantuan and CR 10 with 18 HD. A T-Rex is CR 9, huge and 18HD too.

A Collossal T-Rex would be CR 11 after applying the Giant Template twice. If we add a swim speed and a breath weapon it might get to 12 and then you'd need to add a few HD and some more Natural Armor to get it to 14.

Note this will result in a simple melee brute, which an intelligent party of that lvl should overcome easy due to much higher versatility

I went with spinosaurus with the giant, advanced, and savage template.

The savage template was so it could have DR and energy resistances to ignore most mundane attacks, and so that it's melee attacks are more dangerous.

The giant template was for obvious reasons.

The advanced template was just for good measure.

That all comes to CR14 in order to function just like zilla did in the movie.


Berselius wrote:


Ah, well, you've already have a problem then. See, Roland Emmerich's idiotic and pathetic excuse for a monster is NOT Godzilla. His monster is called "Zilla" (seriously, it's LEGALLY CALLED that now). It also goes by the titles: "Iguanasaurus" and "massive waste of Hollywood's time and money to produce a substandard piece of crap"

I wanted to stat this version because it's much easier, which I already pinned it at about CR 14.


ElementalXX wrote:
Paizo already statted Godzilla btw.

I was just going for the 1998 film version, which is plenty weaker than the original.


Psi51 wrote:

I was thinking more in terms of physical attributes the tree would be at least 640 ft tall which would make it 3 sizes bigger than colossal assuming a doubling for each size category that would be +24 strength on colossal size and the damage dice would go up I imagine. What is the biggest creature in pathfinder ?

There is no bigger than colossal. The biggest monster is Oliphant of Jandelay, who is an elephantine monster that's thousands of feet tall.

Mechanically speaking, though, the biggest is the Aspidochelone because it occupies a 150' square.


What is a "rocket launcher tag?" I've searched it and didn't find an answer.


Why are people talking about humans swallowing mice? People do not have swallow whole. I was just bringing up the fact that you can have a bipedal colossal saurian that swallows whales and mammoths according to RAW.


Matthew Downie wrote:

"A typical triceratops is 30 feet long and weighs 20,000 pounds."

And on the same page of the Bestiary:
"The tyrannosaurus is an apex predator that measures 40 feet long and weighs 14,000 pounds."
And yet somehow the T-rex (Gargantuan) can swallow the triceratops (Huge) whole.

to be fair, the t-rex used to be huge in 3.5. You could just apply the young template to better suit it to a real world t-rex.

I like to think of pathfinder t-rex as more of a fantasy titanic sized t-rex, anyway.
It being 40' long is just fluff, as it could be nearly 100' long and it wouldn't really make a difference mechanically.


So I recently noticed that monsters with swallow whole could swallow up to a size category 1 less than the swallowing monster. I also realized that means gargantuan monsters with that ability can swallow a mammoth whole, and that same gargantuan monster that swallowed the mammoth can be swallowed by a colossal monster. That sounds pretty crazy, really.

"Realistically" speaking, how big would a colossal T-rex have to be to swallow a sperm whale?

How big would a colossal vortex dragon have to be to use its breath weapon and suck a kraken from a distance into its maw and then swallow it?

It seems like not many people have noticed this about swallow whole since I barely found anything about it by searching the boards.

What do you guys think about this? I think it's really cool to have monsters that massive in the game.


Thaine wrote:

Comics and pathfinder don't mix.

Batman's ability to work just fine with the Justice League without being overshadowed has nothing to do with his physical capabilities. It's because he's a brilliant, cunning, downright devious person. A master tactician.

In pathfinder terms, he's the player with absolute system mastery. Or the guy at the table who is always coming up with the creative solution that make the DM throw out pages of notes. You know the guy I'm talking about. That's what makes him Batman.

And that can't be replicated in Pathfinder. You can't make system mastery or creativity into class abilities or feats or attributes. It's just something the player either has or he hasn't.

He sounds like a guy with plenty of hero points.


lemeres wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I never liked the idea of having categories beyond colossal, as I think it sells the gargantuan and colossal size category pretty short. A gargantuan monster could swallow a mammoth whole, while the colossal monster could swallow whole that very same monster that ate the mammoth. Beyond that you could just increase reach and/or space.

Except that's not the case at all. Only certain creatures can Swallow Whole; it's not a quality of being a certain size.

Gargantuan creatures are only 30x30/6in. bases, while Colossal are 12in. bases.

Colossal is freakishly huge for a normal human, but compare a Great Wyrm Red Dragon to an aircraft carrier; or better yet, an Island Turtle - those are creatures so huge entire cities are literally built on their backs. Are we supposed to believe that something that massive only has the same statistics as a creature that is dwarfed in comparison?

Having Size Categories larger than Colossal only makes sense, frankly.

Plenty of creatures can swallow whole. A colossal T-rex can swallow whales or even Krakens. I know not all big creatures can swallow whole, but the ones that can do exactly what I'm talking about.

Like I said, you can always use a bigger space and reach. The aspidochelone is a giant whale with an island on its back, it also has a space of 150'.

....I kind of want a general rule that you can swallow hole any creature 3 sizes smaller than you...

I say 3, since I am imagining a human doing it. They can't swallow halflings. They can't swallow cats. But how about a mouse?

Are you saying I can't shove a mouse (or somethign smaller) into my mouth? I know it wouldn't be pleasant, but it at least seems possible. Maybe make it give an AoO against 0 AC, where you can prevent it if you scratch up their mouth and make them spit you out.

....plus, when I imagine the players facing Gargantuan and larger foes, I just seem to want to imagine Attack on Titan....

Humans do not have swallow whole.

Haflings do not have swallow whole.

Cats do not have swallow whole.

You do not have swallow whole.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So you awaken said whale. It advances as cleric, it casts righteous might.

This will make it easier. Give it the Divine mythic template and Advanced template, it could then learn and cast righteous might.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Take a Rune Giant and then cast mythic enlarge person on him.

Mythic Enlarge Person wrote:
You can increase the target's size by up to two size categories, to a maximum of Huge.
No your wrong.. when I look at that passage, I close my eyes and can't see anything like what you describe.

Even if you do raise a rune giant's size by 2, it still doesn't go beyond colossal. This is because there is nothing beyond colossal according to RAW.

You probably still gain a size bonus from the spell's effect, if it doesn't mention anything about the spell failing if cast on a colossal monster. It's like how a huge dragon using beast shape to turn into a huge creature and still gaining the size bonuses to strength.


I take it that they're never going to have above colossal categories. Especially when creatures like Oliphant of Jandelay is thousands of feet tall and is still "only" colossal. I doubt they want to have to redesign many monsters because of adding more size categories.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I never liked the idea of having categories beyond colossal, as I think it sells the gargantuan and colossal size category pretty short. A gargantuan monster could swallow a mammoth whole, while the colossal monster could swallow whole that very same monster that ate the mammoth. Beyond that you could just increase reach and/or space.

Except that's not the case at all. Only certain creatures can Swallow Whole; it's not a quality of being a certain size.

Gargantuan creatures are only 30x30/6in. bases, while Colossal are 12in. bases.

Colossal is freakishly huge for a normal human, but compare a Great Wyrm Red Dragon to an aircraft carrier; or better yet, an Island Turtle - those are creatures so huge entire cities are literally built on their backs. Are we supposed to believe that something that massive only has the same statistics as a creature that is dwarfed in comparison?

Having Size Categories larger than Colossal only makes sense, frankly.

Plenty of creatures can swallow whole. A colossal T-rex can swallow whales or even Krakens. I know not all big creatures can swallow whole, but the ones that can do exactly what I'm talking about.

Like I said, you can always use a bigger space and reach. The aspidochelone is a giant whale with an island on its back, it also has a space of 150'.


I never liked the idea of having categories beyond colossal, as I think it sells the gargantuan and colossal size category pretty short. A gargantuan monster could swallow a mammoth whole, while the colossal monster could swallow whole that very same monster that ate the mammoth. Beyond that you could just increase reach and/or space.


I like to use templates to do this. If I want a titanic sized shadow saurian monster, I would use spinosaurus + giant template + shadow template, for example.


Vod Canockers wrote:

The largest animals max out at around 100' or so, which is just under the 128' that the next size category would be.

The lagest ship ever built, under construction now, is 1600' the tallest building 2717'.

There are a number of creatures that exceed 128' that are colossal.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Time Stop is 9th level. you can't give Time Stop to someone else.

If mythic is being considered, mythic time stop allows you to.


Speaking of the immense tortoise. Immense tortoise + half-dragon template = immense dragon tortoise. Makes for a cool early boss fight.


Bandw2 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
well then I guess most heavy weapons are doomed to being worse than a Bow.
At higher levels, at least.
the time when you have enough money to buy them?

I wasn't considering the cost but how well they function on their own.

Heavy weapons can attack in areas or target multiple creatures. It's not something the bow can do on its own.

You can still make +5 holy rocket launcher, for what it's worth.


Bandw2 wrote:
well then I guess most heavy weapons are doomed to being worse than a Bow.

At higher levels, at least.

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