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Sangalor's page

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What Physically Unfeasible said, it's great for dips. Particularly thinking of Arcane Archer with empyreal sorcerer - everything runs of Wisdom.

Also, you might have some RP reasons to pick it. For example, you might want to wear armor sometimes to pretend being one of the bad guys (so you have no flurry) but still want to be able to pump out some extra shots.

Or the prereq reason...

They are no bad feats, so I don't think there is a problem with having them available. :-)


Gregory Connolly wrote:
Another option is Aasimar Oracle(Battle) 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Mystic Theurge 8 taking Heavenly Radiance at level 3 to qualify for Mystic Theurge. You end up with BAB +14, 9th level arcane spells, 4th level divine spells. The Battle mystery has a lot of nice revelations but be careful as your oracle level never improves. You can focus on Charisma for both classes and the build works with whatever bloodline, curse and combat style you like.

I had thought of that option as well, but

a) the curse is not what everyone wants
b) your saves are not nearly as good
c) the monk's bonuses (saves, wis to ac etc.) are just plain better IMO

But it certainly is an option :-)


Aasimar Sohei 1/Empyreal sorcerer 1/EK 10, then whatever you feel like, e.g the signifier mentioned above. Or get some archery feats and go for arcane archer.

Great saves, WIS is better stat then CHA.


In the FAQ you find:
"If I wear a headband of vast intelligence, do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?
No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want."

The enhancement bonuses overlap, they do not stack.
The skill points are derived from the intelligence bonus, so they do not stack.

Essentially you could wear both at the same time and designate which one is "active" to get the appropriate skill (and language, if you play it that way) immediately. But then the other is switched off.
Otherwise your skill ranks total wouldn't match your intended total (by intelligence and class skills) anymore.


They are seperate classes and are counted seperately - you would be a sorcerer 5 and a wizard 5, with seperate spells known, spells per day, caster levels etc.

Your saves, hitpoints, base attack bonuses and so on would stack, though.


In PF you cannot trip someone getting up because they still have the prone condition. This is something that is significantly different from D&D 3.5.


By the way, one of the cool things of having a swim speed is being able to breathe water, that's one of the reason - besides being able to move quickly and freely in water - I like the aquatic druid in the S&S setting.

Also, from what I understood armor check penalty does not apply when you have a swim speed since you do not need to make swim checks - which is the only way I know of that ACP comes into play there :-)


It's not really difficult to build one like that. You pasically have to make sure you have a str of 13 in the end so you can take power attack.
Something quite nice for you compared to a stock human/half-elf/half-orc is that you qualify for arcane strike which allows you to increase your damage further. You have to forgo the swift action ki point for that in the round, but it's nice for all weapons - unarmed strikes included - and scales with your level.
Since charisma is boosted by +2 you could easily get a 13 to qualify for eldritch heritage. If you add another 2 - costing you only 3 PBS points in total after all - you could take improved eldritch heritage, e.g. for the draconic resistances or other nice powers.

Or you could go for an archetype that has no flurry, forgo the AC bonus, wear armor and just benefit from the monk's defensive package, abilities and bonus feats.

And if you think a small gnome monk is ridiculous, just think of Yoda ;-P


@OP: I put together what I understood from your posts. I did not assign skills, don't know what skill focus you choose, and I left the 240kGP WBL for level 15 chars - the level I assume S&S runs to - in. 22 skill points left.

Lvl5 base:

Druid/Fighter Lvl5
Half-Elf Druid (Aquatic Druid) 1/Fighter 4
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 46 (4d10+1d8+15)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +5 (+1 vs. fear); +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities bravery +1; Immune magic sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +7 (1d4+3) and
. . unarmed strike +7 (1d3+3)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . 5/day—storm burst (1d6+0 nonlethal damage)
Druid (Aquatic Druid) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3):
1st—obscuring mist [D], obscuring mist, touch of the sea (DC 13)
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, stabilize
[D] Domain spell; Domain Weather
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 9
Base Atk +4; CMB +7 (+9 trip); CMD 19 (21 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus, Step Up
Skills Perception +4, Survival +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven
SQ elf blood, nature bonds (druid [aquatic druid] domain [weather] domain), wild empathy +0
Other Gear hide armor, heavy wooden shield, 239978 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Druid (Aquatic Druid) Domain (Weather) Granted Powers: With power over storm and sky, you can call down the wrath of the gods upon the world below.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Storm Burst (1d6+0) (5/day) (Sp) 30' Ranged touch attack deals 1d6+0 nonlethal damage and inflicts a -2 to hit penalty for 1 rd.
Wild Empathy +0 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.

That's the one for natural attack routine, it has 74 skill points left:

Lvl15 natural:

Druid/Fighter Lvl15 Natural
Half-Elf Druid (Aquatic Druid) 7/Fighter 8
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 16, flat-footed 27 (+14 armor, +3 Dex, +3 deflection)
hp 130 (8d10+7d8+45)
Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +15 (+2 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 vs. enchantments, +4 bonus vs. [water] spells or exceptional or supernatural abilities of aquatic or water creatures
Defensive Abilities bravery +2; Immune magic sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., swim 15 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +19/+14/+9 (1d4+6) and
. . bite +25 (1d4+11) and
. . 2 claws +25 (1d4+11) and
. . gauntlet (from armor) +24/+19/+14 (1d3+11) and
. . unarmed strike +27/+22/+17 (1d3+14)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (natural +3), wild shape 1/day
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +10)
. . 6/day—storm burst (1d6+3 nonlethal damage)
Druid (Aquatic Druid) Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +10):
4th—dispel magic, sleet storm [D]
3rd—call lightning [D] (DC 16), daylight, greater magic fang, wind wall
2nd—barkskin, barkskin, delay poison, fog cloud [D], natural rhythm (DC 15)
1st—obscuring mist [D], obscuring mist, touch of the sea (DC 14)
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, stabilize
[D] Domain spell; Domain Weather
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 9
Base Atk +13; CMB +19 (+21 trip); CMD 36 (40 vs. disarm, 40 vs. sunder, 38 vs. trip)
Feats Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast), Bodyguard, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Racial Heritage, Razortusk, Skill Focus, Step Up
Skills Perception +5 (+8 in aquatic terrain), Survival +5 (+8 in aquatic terrain), Swim +11 (+14 in aquatic terrain); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven
SQ aquatic adaptation, elf blood, nature bonds (druid [aquatic druid] domain [weather] domain), resist ocean's fury, wild empathy +6
Other Gear +5 dragonhide full plate, hide armor, heavy wooden shield, amulet of mighty fists +5, belt of physical might (str & dex +4), cloak of resistance +5, gloves of dueling, ring of protection +3, ring of sustenance, 11178 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aquatic Adaptation (+3) (Ex) Initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, Survival, and
Swim checks in aquatic terrain.
Bodyguard Use an AoO to use aid another to improve an ally's AC.
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Druid (Aquatic Druid) Domain (Weather) Granted Powers: With power over storm and sky, you can call down the wrath of the gods upon the world below.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) You count as another race for the purpose of prerequisites.
Resist Ocean's Fury (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from [water] or abilities of aquatic or water subtypes.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Storm Burst (1d6+3) (6/day) (Sp) 30' Ranged touch attack deals 1d6+3 nonlethal damage and inflicts a -2 to hit penalty for 1 rd.
Swimming (15 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Weapon Training (Natural) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Natural weapons
Wild Empathy +6 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (1/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.


This one can boost its ACs with spells like barkskin and put on a shield when necessary. It uses gloves of dueling to increase attack and damage - some don't accept this when having claws, so in that case you can reduce the bonuses accordingly. Power attack is not included.
You have enough cash for a bow or some other ranged weapon left, deadly aim will allow according bonuses to damage.

Lvl15 maneuvers:

Druid/Fighter Lvl15 with maneuvers
Half-Elf Druid (Aquatic Druid) 5/Fighter 10
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 39, touch 16, flat-footed 37 (+14 armor, +6 shield, +2 Dex, +3 natural, +4 deflection)
hp 132 (10d10+5d8+45)
Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +15 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 vs. enchantments, +4 bonus vs. [water] spells or exceptional or supernatural abilities of aquatic or water creatures
Defensive Abilities bravery +3; Immune magic sleep, disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., swim 15 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +19/+14/+9 (1d4+6) and
. . light shield bash +19/+14/+9 (1d3+6) and
. . +5 ironwood light flail +24/+19/+14 (1d8+11) and
. . gauntlet (from armor) +19/+14/+9 (1d3+6) and
. . unarmed strike +22/+17/+12 (1d3+9)
Ranged +1 seeking composite longbow +16/+11/+6 (1d8+7/×3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (natural +3, pole arms +4)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +10)
. . 6/day—storm burst (1d6+2 nonlethal damage)
Druid (Aquatic Druid) Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +10):
3rd—aqueous orb (DC 16), call lightning [D] (DC 16), poison (DC 16)
2nd—barkskin, fog cloud [D], lesser restoration, summon swarm
1st—alter winds (DC 14), magic fang, obscuring mist [D], obscuring mist, touch of the sea (DC 14)
0 (at will)—detect magic, detect poison, light, stabilize
[D] Domain spell; Domain Weather
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 9
Base Atk +13; CMB +19 (+21 dirty trick, +21 disarm, +21 trip); CMD 35 (37 vs. dirty trick, 41 vs. disarm, 39 vs. sunder, 37 vs. trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Bodyguard, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Disruptive, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Skill Focus, Step Up
Traits magical knack, reactionary
Skills Perception +5 (+7 in aquatic terrain), Survival +5 (+7 in aquatic terrain), Swim +11 (+13 in aquatic terrain); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven
SQ aquatic adaptation, elf blood, nature bonds (druid [aquatic druid] domain [weather] domain), resist ocean's fury, wild empathy +4
Combat Gear pearl of power (1st level) (3), pearl of power (2nd level), pearl of power (3rd level); Other Gear +5 dragonhide full plate, hide armor, +5 darkwood light wooden quickdraw shield, heavy wooden shield, +1 seeking composite longbow, +5 ironwood light flail, belt of giant strength +4, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +5, gloves of dueling, periapt of health, ring of protection +4, ring of sustenance, 4107 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aquatic Adaptation (+2) (Ex) Initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, Survival, and
Swim checks in aquatic terrain.
Bodyguard Use an AoO to use aid another to improve an ally's AC.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.
Druid (Aquatic Druid) Domain (Weather) Granted Powers: With power over storm and sky, you can call down the wrath of the gods upon the world below.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Dirty Trick You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when performing a dirty trick.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Druid [Aquatic Druid]) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Resist Ocean's Fury (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from [water] or abilities of aquatic or water subtypes.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Storm Burst (1d6+2) (6/day) (Sp) 30' Ranged touch attack deals 1d6+2 nonlethal damage and inflicts a -2 to hit penalty for 1 rd.
Swimming (15 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Weapon Training (Natural) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Natural weapons
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.


This one is more directed to maneuvers. Note that the stats include an active barkskin spell cast by the druid. I swapped the natural attacks with the other weapon group in order but included it anyway...
70 skill points are not assigned.

I like the second one more :-)

Having quickdraw shields and the quick draw feat allows you to draw and put it away in the same round as free actions, so you can cast, switch weapons etc.

These are just some suggestions, I think they should work out pretty well. Of course you have many different options...


I wonder why 14 wis, too...

And I don't consider that one to be too strong, either.


Mike Franke wrote:
I find it strange that some people find it normal that a BBEG Wiz needs combat minions or monsters to be viable but count it as a drawback that a combat BBEG would need some caster minions. The game is designed to need a variety of classes to be viable and the same goes for NPC's.

I agree.

Particularly when his minions balance out his weaknesses and increase his strengths, as it is usually the case with caster BBEG: Their minions are good at fighting. The other way around is just as possible.
There are actually a lot of movies where the BBEGs are warriors and their lieutnants/major supporters are powerful evil clerics or wizards.

A fighter BBEG could have several priests who do not need to be close to his level with him: Some ready on counterspelling, others first buff him before they charge.
For some reason I remember the popular K. Costner Robin Hood version where the sheriff could easily be represented as a fighter with his "witch" actually being a witch. In pathfinder she could buff him and then debuff the party. Throw in that traiterous priest (but let him fight) and a few guards, and it isn't quite as easy anymore.

A fighter can also be quite good at using magic, e.g. skill focus (UMD) and magical aptitude, traits and sinking skills into it. Then he could use scrolls or wands to even out disadvantages.

As someone else wrote: A single caster BBEG quickly is a dead BBEG. It's the full package that counts.


I think it's not nearly as bad as some here believe. It may not be as efficient at one or two things that an optimized character there can do, but you certainly have a few nice options there and your character can deal with more situations :-)
Also, will save gets boosted which is never a bad thing, and the bonus to fortitude is nothing to sneeze at either.

One thing I would recommend is taking additional traits feat with magical knack. This way your character level for druid spells can increase making it more useful.

You will get some advantages like venom immunity at higher levels. Maybe you could look for ways to make it a bit more rounded, i.e. increase your defensive capabilities.

Furthermore, since you already have combat expertise I suggest to look at options like dirty trick and gang-up. Combat reflexes allows you to pickup bodyguard, so you can intercept attacks on your other team members.
Weapon training natural sounds good, but it gets better when you actually get natural attacks. As soon as you have wild shape class feature, pick up claws of the beast, add the racial heritage (half-orc) and razortusk feats, then multiattack, and to finish it off take that helmet of the rhino (or whatever it's called) that gives you a gore attack. Then you'll be looking at all your unarmed attacks as primary weapons, your natural attacks at a -2, and they can all be boosted by a single amulet of mighty fists. Your druid powers like barkskin will negate the loss of the neck slot for an amulet of natural armor.

Weapon training (natural) would then really be worth it.
Your second choice should include either a ranged weapon or a group with reach weapons to compliment your close-combat focused style.

By the way, I see you do not have power attack listed. This is something you *really* should get, it's one of the best feats and should be on top of your list.

Also, really consider getting aquatic druid. Particularly in S&S the bonuses - particularly the swim speed - are worth it.

Have fun!


I agree with Nimm's assessment.

And I would not say they stack when you read closely:
The feat reduces the penalty *while* you charge, whereas the other ability reduces it *after* you charged. They would complement each other.

Combining these archetypes in that way would make it too strong IMO.


I have not seen prayer wheels mentioned... Not for the start of a career, but later on it's great :-)
And I do hope they have power attack and deadly aim do know how and when to aid another... :-P


bigrig107 wrote:

Oh my god!

Would....would that actually work?

It might :-)

It has lots of little features and abilities, and with the right items you should be able to steer it into somewhat useful directions. Using wands and scrolls, boosting its AC with vindicator shield, massive saves and reroll abilities it should at the very least be a survivor.
I could imagine a character that feels divine power but just does not find out what its calling really is. Plus the char is just too much of a rowdy and wastes the time fighting, which keeps him away from studying ... ;-)


quibblemuch wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Well, I did always want to make "Saves Man" whose one purpose was to have saves as high as human...ly...possible...

Dammit.

Yep. His base saves by the end were: Fort +17 Ref +13 Will +15. Ability and item modified that came to Fort +23 Ref +17 Will +18. Higher while raging, of course.

A base 20th level monk is +12s across the board.

Note that I could have done better if I had added a couple more classes instead of topping off the last 3 of inquisitor, but by the end the GM had this eye twitch every time I leveled into a new class and so I demurred...

The funny thing was, I had not set out to build anything specific and was not trying to min-max. The character just naturally wanted to be able to do as many different things as possible, as befits the Deicidarion of Groetus.

Reminds me of this character I made. It was supposed to have

- 20 levels
- each class only 1 level
- all legal (i.e. requirements met)
- remain somewhat functional

The build below is without equipment except for two masterwork weapons to get its attack bonuses etc. Its saves, as in your example, are quite impressive... :-)

It was never intendd for playing though.

multi
Male Half-Elf Arcane Archer 1/Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 1/Battle Herald 1/Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 1/Bard (Archaelogist) 1/Cleric (Evangelist) 1/Dragon Disciple 1/Druid (Urban Druid) 1/Duelist 1/Fighter 1/Gunslinger 1/Holy Vindicator 1/Horizon Walker 1/Inquisitor 1/Monk (Martial Artist) 1/Ranger (Guide) 1/Rogue 1/Samurai 1/Shadow Dancer 1/Stalwart Defender 1
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 17, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +2 dodge, +2 untyped)
hp 178 (3d12+9d10+8d8+60)
Fort +28 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +18, Will +16; +2 vs. enchantments, +2 trait bonus vs. charm and compulson
Defensive Abilities canny defense, resolve, vindicator's shield; Immune magic sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork rapier +16/+11/+6 (1d6+5/18-20) and
. . unarmed strike +15/+10/+5 (1d6+4)
Ranged masterwork composite longbow +16/+11/+6 (1d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks archaeologist's luck 4 rounds/day (+1), claws, enhance arrows (magic), flurry of blows, precise strike, rage (6 rounds/day), ranger's focus, sermonic performance, sneak attack +2d6, stunning fist (5/day, DC 22), challenge, wooden fists (+1, 5 rounds/day)
Bard (Archaeologist) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +1):
1st (1/day)—feather fall (DC 11), saving finale (DC 11)
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, prestidigitation (DC 10)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +3):
1st (2/day)—alarm, true strike
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect poison, disrupt undead, stabilize
Alchemist (Vivisectionist) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +1):
1st—endure elements
Cleric (Evangelist) Spells Prepared (CL 3rd; concentration +5):
1st—divine favor, goodberry [D], obscuring mist
0 (at will)—create water, detect poison, light
[D] Domain spell; Domains Decay, Plant, Seasons, Weather
Druid (Urban Druid) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3):
1st—[/i]
0 (at will)—[i]

[D] Domain spell; Domains Decay, Plant, Seasons, Weather
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 11
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 32
Feats Alignment Channel, Brew Potion, Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Endurance, Gunsmithing, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Skill Focus (Perception), Stunning Fist, Throw Anything, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Traits birthmark, magical knack
Skills Acrobatics +8, Appraise +4, Bluff +5 (+7 vs. creatures with whom you share a language), Climb +8, Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +15, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +7, Fly +7, Handle Animal +4, Heal +6, Intimidate +9 (+11 vs. creatures with whom you share a language), Knowledge (arcana) +9 (+11 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5 (+7 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (engineering) +5 (+7 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (geography) +10 (+12 while in urban terrain, +12 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (history) +5 (+7 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (local) +5 (+7 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (nature) +7 (+9 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (nobility) +5 (+7 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (planes) +5 (+7 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (religion) +9 (+11 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Linguistics +4, Perception +23 (+24 to locate traps, +25 while in urban terrain), Perform (dance) +5, Perform (oratory) +8, Profession (soldier) +7, Ride +7, Sense Motive +7, Sleight of Hand +7, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +11 (+13 while in urban terrain), Survival +8 (+10 while in urban terrain, +9 to track, +9 to track), Swim +8 (+12 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, ride mount, alchemy
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven
SQ ac bonus, aura, bardic knowledge +1, controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control, deed: deadeye, deed: gunslinger's dodge, deed: quick clear, defensive stance, domains (seasons), dragon type, elf blood, favored terrain (urban +2), grit, hide in plain sight, inspiring command, inspiring commands (shake it off), judgement 1/day), monster lore +2, mutagen, nature bonds (druid [urban druid] domain [decay] domain), orders (order of the warrior), public speaker, spontaneous casting, spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun), tireless rage, track, trapfinding +1, unarmed strike, untouched by the seasons, voice of authority, warrior's skills, wild empathy +2
Other Gear masterwork composite longbow, masterwork rapier, 150 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+0 Ride while riding your bonded mount. (Ex) Cancel your armor check penalty of -0 while riding your mount.
AC Bonus +2 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Alchemy +1 (Su) +1 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Alignment Channel (Evil) Channel Energy heals or harms outsiders of the chosen alignment.
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Archaeologist's Luck +1 (4 rounds/day) (Ex) Gain Luck bonus to attack, damage, saves, and all skills.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Birthmark +2 save vs. charm & compulsion
Canny Defense +0 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Claws (3 rounds/day) (Ex) 2 Claw atacks deal 1d4 damage
Cleric (Evangelist) Domain (Seasons) Associated Domain: Weather
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deed: Deadeye (Ex) Use 1 grit per extra range increment to make a touch attack beyond the first.
Deed: Gunslinger's Dodge (+2 AC) (Ex) Use 1 grit, immediately move 5 ft/drop prone to gain 1x/2x bonus to AC vs ranged attack.
Deed: Quick Clear (Ex) While have grit, remove the effects of a misfire. Use 1 grit to do as move action.
Defensive Stance (6 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, +2 to AC when defending, but may not move.
Dragon Type (-Choose-) +1 damage per die for [energy] spells.
Druid (Urban Druid) Domain (Decay) Associated Domain: Plant
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enhance Arrows (magic) (Su) Every nonmagical arrow you fire has a +1 enhancement bonus.
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su) You can use Stealth even while observed, as long as there is a shadow within 10'
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Inspiring Command +1 (move) (4 rounds/day) (Ex) Grant bonuses to allies who can hear you.
Judgement (1/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Cleric [Evangelist]) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Monster Lore +2 (Ex) +2 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Mutagen (DC 10) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 10 min.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Public Speaker (-1 DC to hear) An evangelist gains Perform as a class skill. In addition, she is trained to project her voice with great skill and effect; the DC to hear her speak in difficult conditions is reduced by an amount equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier (
Rage (6 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Ranger's Focus +2 (1/day) (Ex) +2 to hit and damage focused target.
Resolve (1/day) (Ex) Starting at 1st level, the samurai gains resolve that he can call upon to endure even the most devastating wounds and afflictions. He can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every two samurai levels beyond
Sermonic Performance (standard action) (4 rounds/day) An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as us
Shake it Off +1 (one ally) (Ex) An ally in 60 ft gains an immediate save vs. an ongoing effect.
Sneak Attack +2d6 +2d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Spontaneous Casting An evangelist does not gain the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells by sacrificing prepared spells. However, an evangelist can spontaneously cast the following spells by sacrificing a prepared spell of the noted level or above:

Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Domain spells.
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Untouched by the Seasons (2 hours) (5/day) (Su) As per Endure Elements
Vindicator's Shield (-Choose-) (Su) Channel energy into shield for sacred/profane AC bonus for 24 hr or until hit.
Voice of Authority +2/+1 (Ex) +2 Diplo & Intim vs. those sharing language. +1 for allies to hear you & know secret messages.
Warrior's Challenge +1 (1/day) (Ex) +1 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, DR 1/- against attacks from challenge target.
Warrior's Skills +1 +1 For Knowledge (Nobility) checks relating to the nobles or politics of your land.
Wild Empathy +2 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wooden Fists +1 (5 rounds/day) (Su) Unarmed attacks are lethal, do not provoke AoO, and gain +1 damage.


Matt2VK wrote:

One item I see people keep forgetting about mirror image is that a image can get *POPPED* even on a miss. That miss still has to be within 5 of the target's AC but that still usually means if you're being attacked, a image will be *POPPED* on every swing.

So, lots of attacks against you, Blurr is better. A few big attacks against you, Mirror Image is better.

My thoughts exactly :-)

So I am really looking forward to the calculations I asked for above :-D


Ackbladder wrote:
Markon wrote:

I can't even believe this discussion is happening.... The rules don't explicitly state it because the people who made the game expect this stuff to be read with some common sense.

...

One poster asserted that any where it says "spells" you are assuming it to apply to only that class's spells, which I (personally) think is a pretty big leap and possibly causes as many problems as it solves. Another poster pointed out the implications of that wrt to the Oracle's Deaf curse, which highlights the point. A similar point would be the Draconic/Orc bloodline powers affecting non-sorcerer spells, which I think most people would agree is RAI and desirable (leading to the common 1-level dip in cross-blooded sorcerer for blaster wizards).
...

I was at least one of those :-P

Sorcerer was always considered to be an exception because it has that "arcane" reference in its wordings which you then can read to apply to more than the "spells" entry in its class text...

But first about this specific instance. If you look into the magic chapter under divine spells it says:

Quote:


Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells: A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a bonus domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity spontaneously casts either cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.

So this already makes it clear that the source to be substituted for has to be divine - no crossing over between arcane and divine. Now if we play devil's advocate we could consider dipping from druid into cleric to convert druid spells.

Was this intended? I do not think so, and I also think they started to specifically call out in later books, like in the case of the magus, to which spells it applied in order to make it clear in situations like that. Unfortunately this then gets turned around to say "well, when it says there it does not apply to others it automatically must apply when it does not call it out".

I think it's clear they are referring to the cleric spells. "Spells" is what it is labelled in the chapter, and the "spells per day" table reers to cleric spells. If you multiclass, you would thus gain "multiple" "spells" entries - what happens if they are not kept separate? Are you allowed to use the spells per day of a sorcerer for your cleric spells per day when you multiclass?

On the other hand, Paizo has surprised me a bit with their two-handed attack rulings and its effects on off-hand attacks and their willingness to let spell-like abilities count as prerequisites for feats etc. So I think I am gonna FAQ this, maybe they have something else in mind with this as well...

If they do I imagine seeing a lot of cleric 1 / druid 1 dips in the near-future ;-P


Remy Balster wrote:

It takes roughly 10 attacks against you for blur to even out with a minimum rolled Mirror Image in # of hits prevented. And it takes 25 attacks to even it up if you roll max.

At CL 6, it takes 15-30 attacks to even em up.
CL 9 takes 20-35.
CL 12 takes 25-40.
CL 15 30-40.
CL 18 35-40.

So... a semi-reasonable scenario, with a rapid shooting full bab archer of 6th level shootin at ya at CL 6 cast minimum rolled Mirror Image;

Round 1 he eats off 2 images and pegs ya with a hit. Round 2 hit eat off the last one and gets 2 hits in. You've stopped 3 attacks.

For blur to even out (on average), and stop 3 attacks, he'd have to full attack you for 5 rounds (15 attacks).

You, or your party, are doing something very wrong to let him attack you without any hindrance for that long.

////

The only ‘real’ advantage Blur has over Mirror Image is that it can target others. And it stops precision based attacks.

Can you please elaborate on these calculations? I am interested in seeing them :-)

What AC and attack bonuses did you include?
How did you model the effectiveness of mirror image when the figments are destroyed?

*curious*


Remy Balster wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

I found blur to be more effective and versatile.

As others mentioned you can put it on allies and it stops precision based attacks such as sneak attack. Enemies focusing on you will quickly bring down the mirror images, e.g. an archer will get them off you fast. Also, blur has a much longer duration than mirror image, so it's good for prebuffing and not wasting a round of combat. Finally, mirror image effectively is 5 easier to hit since an image goes away even when they miss you by 5, so it's not as strong as blur IMO.
But when you can get both, you should :-)

Blur doesn't have a longer duration than Mirror Image. (unless the images are all destroyed) They are both 1 min/level.

Mirror Image helps more if the enemy archer focuses you than Blur. By a lot.

You are right about mirror image having the same duration as blur, I misremembered... :-)

But I stand by my opinion. Mirror image can simply be beaten away, particularly when fighting many enemies, and then it's gone. Blur does not work the same way.
Just tonight the guy with mirror images was hit 2 out of 3 rounds, and he had to recast because the enemy started to focus on the obviously magic using guy.
Last time with blur he did not eat that much damage. But that's just an anecdote :-P

I find blur better, mirror image comes after that for me. If mirror image works better in the OP's situation and the ability to buff an ally is not important, then he should choose it :-)


Ackbladder wrote:

Let's say we have a wizard/cleric/mystic theurge, rejoicing in the resurrection of this much-maligned PrC brought about by the early entry allowed by SLAs.

I was reading the bit on spontaneous casting, and no where does it say that the prepared spell to be lost must be a cleric spell. According to the rules, would it be possible for said character to 'lose' a wizard spell in order to spontaneously cast a heal?

From Spontaneous Casting:

Quote:
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison or domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

Just curious.

For added amusement, I imagine the MT could do this is in armor without worrying about the Arcane Spell Failure %?

As it is listed in the cleric class features it only applies to cleric spells. The further text also makes it clear.

When you look at preferred spell feat, however, things are different. There it really does not say that you have to use the spell from the same class. As a feat it is not restricted to class features.
Of course you do not have the same flexibility wrt. spells at every spell level, but it is rulewise ok :-)


I found blur to be more effective and versatile.
As others mentioned you can put it on allies and it stops precision based attacks such as sneak attack. Enemies focusing on you will quickly bring down the mirror images, e.g. an archer will get them off you fast. Also, blur has a much longer duration than mirror image, so it's good for prebuffing and not wasting a round of combat. Finally, mirror image effectively is 5 easier to hit since an image goes away even when they miss you by 5, so it's not as strong as blur IMO.
But when you can get both, you should :-)


One addition to the OP:
Does your GM rule that you need to search every square with a move action for traps? A lot I know rule that, the rules are a bit fuzzy on that topic.
Because in that case you may want to pick up the rogue talent trap spotter as soon as possible... :-)


blackbloodtroll wrote:

There are many classes that deal with Traps much better than the Rogue.

Well, one can disagree with that, but that's another topic for another thread ;-)

@OP: You do not need rogue just for what you just mentioned. Archaelogist is sufficient. But I am a bit puzzled about arcane trickster. Do you want to go arcane trickster with bard spellcasting? I would not advise that, you lose more than you gain, particularly the class features of the archaeologist bard.

What level do you play at, do you start with level 9? Are the stats you posted already including level ups? How much wealth? Are the stats in order that you have to take them? Which books are allowed?

One note about archaelogist bard: You should pick up a trait that gives you disable device as a class skill, otherwise it will be difficult...


Unless houseruled the dcs for magic traps are fixed and cap out at 34, so the bonus for a rogue does not help there after a certain level.
Mechanical traps can theoretically be unlimited in difficulty, so the level boost of rogues helps there. But you don't need trapfinding for that, everyone can to that.

Feats, traits, high dex, MW tools, boost items - that helps there :-)


Te'Shen wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

. . .

CLW is not easily available for L1 characters, so it is too powerful.
The offensive flare burst is also not something other familiars have.
Not spending money when loosing your familiar, effectively negating the need to be careful in combat with it, is already really powerful....

As far as I can tell, cure light wounds is available to seven different character classes out of 22 at level 1 (roughly 1/3). As a first level spell, it is possibly one of the more common scrolls or potions to pick up at low level adventuring, and costs roughly 25gp for clerics, druids, oracles, bards, paladins, and rangers to manufacture, given they have scribe scroll, or say a wizard has scribe scroll and one of the others who can cast it deigns to help.

...

You are gaining the ability *for free*. Daily. Every day you save money - if you even could use a scroll with your class without fail - and you are much more self-sufficient. If you are a wizard, you do not need a healer, because you have your familiar. So the comparison as to how many classes have CLW available is irrelevant. Only classes that get a familiar at level 1 *and* can cast CLW are of relevance to this. Only the witch comes to my mind, and even that character would certainly reserve 1 of her daily precious spell slots for something else than a CLW.

I don't know what kind of games you play, but if you look at what level 1 characters have available according to the core rule book for starting wealth, that's maybe something you can pay once for, but not every day. And seriously: Would you as a wizard buy a scroll of cure light wounds which you may or may not be able to use, or equipment that you can use?

Also, if your familiar participates in battle I as a GM would immediately be treating it as any other member of the group and attack it if the situation warrants it. All other GMs I have played with and play with now treat it the same way. So usually players really ponder using their familiar in battle because losing it costs you dearly. If you have an almost instantly reviving familiar there is almost no risk attached to it any more, so this alone is very unbalancing.

Again if it works for you fine. I consider this way too powerful.


Zark wrote:

...

@ Sangalor: ...
But if you want the trap expert role filled by one class ...

Well, funny thing is I do not want that :-)

The entire thread I have tried to make clear that I simply feel that the trait is too cheap. It has nothing to do with the rogue in that sense, it's just one of its classic abilities...

Others asked what I would feel an adequate cost, and I replied. And to make it crystal clear again:
1. I do not think the rogue only has trapfinding left. So the class isn't killed by the trait.
2. I do think the Trap Finder trait as written is too cheap. Here are examples (not perfect, but a quick write-up to illustrate what I think is right):

Trap Finder trait
Benefit(s): Disable Device is always a class skill for you. In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue, but you take a -5 penalty to the the check. If you have the ability to disarm magic traps from another class feature, like the rogue's trapfinding or the archaeologist bard's clever explorer, you do not take this penalty and gain a +1 trait bonus instead.

Trap Finder feat
Benefit(s): You gain a +2 bonus on Disable Device checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you. You are treated as if having the trapfinding class feature of the rogue for the purpose of meeting prerequisites of prestige classes, spells etc.
In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue. If you have the ability to disarm magic traps from another class feature, like the rogue's trapfinding or the archaeologist bard's clever explorer, the bonus increases to +4.

This way it is at least worth considering it for everyone:


  • Trait: A class with trapfinding (like core rogue) gets a bonus along the typical lines of a trait. An archaeologist bard, for example, gets more - disable device as a class skill.
  • Trait: A class without trapfinding gets a class skill and the ability to disarm magic traps. The penalty is almost equaled out by the trained bonus.
  • Feat: Similar arguments as the trait, but the bonuses are larger, and no penalty to them.
  • Feat: Trapfinding of the rogue (and other classes, I think the trapper ranger also gets one) still has the scaling bonuses on perception and disable device checks, so it's still good. If you took the feat in addition you just improve it further, enabling you to either sink less skills into it or be very good at it even at low levels.

Something along the lines would be fine IMO.
Just not the trait as written. :-)


andreww wrote:
Coriat wrote:

Summons can't summon.

Called creatures can as can those you just happen to meet out in the "wild".

What do you mean by that?

The balor summons, so his summoned creatures cannot summon again.
Gated creatures are different - are you going in that direction?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
And you just were wrong claiming it is the same.
No, I was mistaken about what you meant. I thought you mean it was the 3.5 smite.

Huh? Ok, wherever you got that idea from...

It was not what I meant ;-)


DrDeth wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
This is where you and others are really biased, if not even nearing arrogance. So if it's not written right that way in the rulebook, it's suddenly houserules? Just because the game gives you the tools for it, it's not OK to use them?

Let's look at what the CRB says. Page 416 is where the rules for traps begin. The Perception DC for a magical trap is 25 + spell level. Hence, max 34. For mechanical traps, the base Perception DC is 20. The book refers to table for raising or lowering that DC. Let's look at that table (Table 13--3 on page 422). The table only goes up to DC "30 or higher". Below that, the CR goes up by 1for every increase of 5 in the Perception DC. Looking at the example traps in the CRB, we see that the highest DC of a mechanical trap is 30.

So yes, traps with Perception DCs >34 do go beyond the rules in the book. You could continue the pattern of the table for Perception DCs by having a DC 35 trap have 1 higher CR than the same trap with DC 30. But that would, strictly speaking, be a house rule. The intent in the rules seems to be that traps have bounded Perception DCs.

I think you missed the point of this thread. It's about the trapfinding ability which allows you *disarm* magical traps.

Not *finding* them what everyone can do; I made a remark about that unfortunate naming in my posts above.

Without trapfinding or a similar ability you simply cannot disarm magical traps, barring investment of spells. That can be quite a problem for a band of adventurers.

Sure. But this thread is also about this trait making rogues obsolete. And, the fact remains, non-magic traps need to be considered also.

The trap only allows you to disarm magic traps. It has no impact on mechanical traps.

I am focusing on the trait here, only. How does it affect rogues for mechanical traps?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
It does not bypass DR.
Is that all you meant? You should be more specific.

That's its key strength.

And you just were wrong claiming it is the same.


Scavion wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Because alchemist have bad reflex saves and dump dex?(besides, evasion does nothing on a failed save...)
When an alchemist dies due to half damage he is dead even though he saved ;-)
DO not rogue dies because of poisons? I know a couple of classes that are better in taht regard. And against mind affecting too.

Certainly right. But the rogue not having a good fort save does not mean that evasion is bad.

I believe it was ** spoiler omitted ** where you are hit with 4 times 20d6 of various breath weapons. The rogue survived. Of those who just took half the damage two died, being weakened from the fight that ended 1d4+1 rounds before ;-)
Sounds like the party was ill prepared, not that evasion is fantastic.

Oh well...

It was a well prepared party. But that campaign is hard, not like Paizo's APs.
we didn't expect immediate divine retribution without even a real chance to recover and heal the hurt ones, though...


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quote:
I would consider it equally bad if the celestial template gave you paladin's smite, btw. Luckily it doesn't ;-)
Actually, it does.

Wrong. It does not bypass DR.


Nicos wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Because alchemist have bad reflex saves and dump dex?(besides, evasion does nothing on a failed save...)
When an alchemist dies due to half damage he is dead even though he saved ;-)
DO not rogue dies because of poisons? I know a couple of classes that are better in taht regard. And against mind affecting too.

Certainly right. But the rogue not having a good fort save does not mean that evasion is bad.

I believe it was ** spoiler omitted ** where you are hit with 4 times 20d6 of various breath weapons. The rogue survived. Of those who just took half the damage two died, being weakened from the fight that ended 1d4+1 rounds before ;-)
High reflex and evasion are good. But the same can be said about a high fort. And since the alchemist have both good saves I will say they have the clear advantage.

In the fort department, yes. But they clearly suck compared to evasion rogues, cause half damage is still damage that can and will kill you.

If you compared evasion to stalwart, then it would be different. But I guess there is a reason why you don't get it at level 2 ;-)


Nicos wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

When you are in a dungeon with deadly traps who do not just cause HP damage, but

- cause ability damage
- destroy equipment
- trap you forever (i.e. game over)
- alert enemies who then meet you in such force that you cannot handle it
then it is arguably *very* useful, and may well be more useful than SE or FE then.
Well, everyone can detect those.

Right. But we are talking about overcoming them, disarming in this case :-P


Nicos wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Because alchemist have bad reflex saves and dump dex?(besides, evasion does nothing on a failed save...)
When an alchemist dies due to half damage he is dead even though he saved ;-)
DO not rogue dies because of poisons? I know a couple of classes that are better in taht regard. And against mind affecting too.

Certainly right. But the rogue not having a good fort save does not mean that evasion is bad.

I believe it was
Spoiler:
the red hand of doom
where you are hit with 4 times 20d6 of various breath weapons. The rogue survived. Of those who just took half the damage two died, being weakened from the fight that ended 1d4+1 rounds before ;-)


MrSin wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

In the early posts I already stated that it should have a penalty for non-rogues. Then at least all classes could benefit, but the rogue wouldn't be penalized. I would even go so far as saying that when you have a similar ability like the archaelogist that you get treated the same way.

Kneecapping everyone so the wheelchair dude feels good. Classy.

Currently it's worth about half a feat.

Well, we just disagree here :-)
Disagree about kneecapping everyone so one guy feels good? That sounds like a pretty much universally bad idea to me.

I don't agree that it's kneecapping anyone not to get a new shiny toy cheaply.

I guess it's also kneecapping then if they created a rage giving trait and I said you shouldn't get it so cheaply?

And I don't agree that it's a half-feat. Only as a lesser version, e.g. with penalties, as a trait, or as a feat without penalties.


Scavion wrote:
Sangalor wrote:


I think you missed the point of this thread. It's about the trapfinding ability which allows you *disarm* magical traps.
Not *finding* them what everyone can do; I made a remark about that unfortunate naming in my posts above.

Without trapfinding or a similar ability you simply cannot disarm magical traps, barring investment of spells. That can be quite a problem for a band of adventurers.

Summon monster 1 is pretty plentiful for tripping magic traps.

If you have enough of those and don't worry about setting off alerts, that's viable :-)

I think there was an AP where you could not summon and teleport while you were in a fortress. But maybe I am mixing that up with a 3.5 module...


Scavion wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

In the early posts I already stated that it should have a penalty for non-rogues. Then at least all classes could benefit, but the rogue wouldn't be penalized. I would even go so far as saying that when you have a similar ability like the archaelogist that you get treated the same way.

Kneecapping everyone so the wheelchair dude feels good. Classy.

Currently it's worth about half a feat.

Well, we just disagree here :-)

I would consider it equally bad if the celestial template gave you paladin's smite, btw. Luckily it doesn't ;-)


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
This is where you and others are really biased, if not even nearing arrogance. So if it's not written right that way in the rulebook, it's suddenly houserules? Just because the game gives you the tools for it, it's not OK to use them?

Let's look at what the CRB says. Page 416 is where the rules for traps begin. The Perception DC for a magical trap is 25 + spell level. Hence, max 34. For mechanical traps, the base Perception DC is 20. The book refers to table for raising or lowering that DC. Let's look at that table (Table 13--3 on page 422). The table only goes up to DC "30 or higher". Below that, the CR goes up by 1for every increase of 5 in the Perception DC. Looking at the example traps in the CRB, we see that the highest DC of a mechanical trap is 30.

So yes, traps with Perception DCs >34 do go beyond the rules in the book. You could continue the pattern of the table for Perception DCs by having a DC 35 trap have 1 higher CR than the same trap with DC 30. But that would, strictly speaking, be a house rule. The intent in the rules seems to be that traps have bounded Perception DCs.

I think you missed the point of this thread. It's about the trapfinding ability which allows you *disarm* magical traps.

Not *finding* them what everyone can do; I made a remark about that unfortunate naming in my posts above.

Without trapfinding or a similar ability you simply cannot disarm magical traps, barring investment of spells. That can be quite a problem for a band of adventurers.


Pan wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

The rogue discussion is leading this thing off-topic...

I do not consider trapfinding the essential part of a rogue, but part of his package.

I do think a class feature with useful scenarios like that is too cheap as a trait. well, we'll see if they ever bring this out in hardcovers... :-P

Ok then what should it cost?

In the early posts I already stated that it should have a penalty for non-rogues. Then at least all classes could benefit, but the rogue wouldn't be penalized. I would even go so far as saying that when you have a similar ability like the archaelogist that you get treated the same way.

A rogue without trapfinding would be treated the same way as other classes.

Alternatively, make it a feat. Then it's more in line with other abilities.


The rogue discussion is leading this thing off-topic...

I do not consider trapfinding the essential part of a rogue, but part of his package.

I do think a class feature with useful scenarios like that is too cheap as a trait. well, we'll see if they ever bring this out in hardcovers... :-P


leo1925 wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

@Sangalor

You forgot Paizo modules.

What about them?

To put them on the list along with APs, PFS scenarios, bestiaries etc.

Ah, ok. That's fine :-)

Does not have any impact on what I - and other posters in this thread - was trying to get across, though :-)


leo1925 wrote:

@Sangalor

You forgot Paizo modules.

What about them?


Scavion wrote:
Sangalor wrote:


This is where you and others are really biased, if not even nearing arrogance. So if it's not written right that way in the rulebook, it's suddenly houserules? Just because the game gives you the tools for it, it's not OK to use them?
Traps in combat are not a legitimate thing? Are all opponents supposed to be too stupid to ambush PCs and use terrain?
Tell me, if it's not a Paizo AP, is it then right to ridicule it?

Nowhere in the Paizo Pathfinder Core Rulebook does it say "it is only correct to use this if you are using our Adventure Paths".

Hold the phone mate. Theres a difference in having your own home game and having your own homebrew game, the latter involves changing the rules. Traps in combat are just fine to use, but as soon as you enter the room you get a Perception check to notice all available stimuli. That includes the orcs lurking in the shadow to the log trap they've rigged up to slam into you.

Your post made it sound otherwise.

And "homebrew game" certainly has no fixed and universally standardized meaning to it. To me - and probably others as well - homebrew just means any game where you design parts yourself, i.e. you are not using a published adventure/campaign, be it from Paizo or not.
It does not imply houserules, though that may be included.

So maybe that is simply a misunderstanding :-)

Scavion wrote:


I found your statement somewhat arrogant trying to imply something I'm not.

I am not implying anything. Just looking at your post and stating my impression.

Scavion wrote:

He said "many dms rule..." which is a clear indication of a houserule and not something that is actually part of the rules.

And that is the point. The only thing that he stated that may be construed as houserules is that it you need to look at a square to use perception to spot a trap.

You commented the first part with the "published traps don't go beyond 34" and then the entire rest of the post with "houserules". I read it to extend to the in-combat checks as well.
If you intended otherwise, that is a misunderstanding and fine :-)

Scavion wrote:

And now I'll get to this part.

Abandoning the guidelines set means the DM can throw a trap at you that simply can't be disabled or spotted. Its +3 CR to put a trap at a DC30 or higher. So a DM can put a DC100 trap and you can't find it period. Doesn't matter if you're a Rogue or not.

That's right. Still, this means there are rules to design traps and make them hard without houseruling it. So the bonuses for a rogue to disable/spot them are worthwhile after all, and a dispel magic may fail :-)

Edit: Not move action, but looking at a square was the text.


Atarlost wrote:

People keep comparing giving away trapfinding to giving away smite evil and I'm sitting here laughing.

Smite evil, detect evil, divine grace, divine health, and the fear immunity component of Aura of Courage are available from a spell and since paladins and clerics know their entire lists the opportunity cost is a grand total of zilch.

Druids can also get Smite Evil with a feat.

Oddly enough, paladins are still considered a good class. It's almost as if they have more than one class feature that people care about or something.

While that is a good feat and the celestial smite is nice, note that it *does not* bypass DR as the paladin's smite. So that really isn't comparable.

Paizo really should make sure their language is consistent, they should have called this "lesser smite" or the paladin's smite "supreme smite" or whatever. But this way it is often confusing :-/


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Scavion wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Scavion wrote:


Since DCs dont go past 34 in most cases, my Alchemist puts out a Perception of 39 when he takes 10 allowing him to see even the hardest traps from 50 feet away since he takes a -1 per 10 feet.

If your alchemist can have +29, then traps can have a DC of 40.

And, in your case, perception is a Move action. Many DM's rule that to Perceive a trap you must look at one square.

Not to mention, Search Routines go out the window once Init is rolled. Our Rogue has found quite a few traps right there in the combat zone. Mind you, so has out fighter- the hard way.
Now, yes, the fighter survived the pit trap. But it took him out of the combat for 3 critical rounds.

In your campaign this works. In others it might not.

Uh. All published traps don't have a DC past 34. So I dont...*reads rest of your post* Wow. Houserules as justification huh. Okey dokey then.

This is where you and others are really biased, if not even nearing arrogance. So if it's not written right that way in the rulebook, it's suddenly houserules? Just because the game gives you the tools for it, it's not OK to use them?

Traps in combat are not a legitimate thing? Are all opponents supposed to be too stupid to ambush PCs and use terrain?
Tell me, if it's not a Paizo AP, is it then right to ridicule it?

Nowhere in the Paizo Pathfinder Core Rulebook does it say "it is only correct to use this if you are using our Adventure Paths".

meatrace wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

SE or FE are only "more powerful" when your definition is based on combat. And in most Paizo Adventure Paths combat is pretty much the core, you rarely advance without it.

So based on that definition I would agree with you that SE and FE are a lot more powerful than trapfinding (they really should have renamed "trapfinding" to "trapdisarming" btw, but that is off-topic).

When you are in a dungeon with deadly traps who do not just cause HP damage, but
- cause ability damage
- destroy equipment
- trap you forever (i.e. game over)
- alert enemies who then meet you in such force that you cannot handle it
then it is arguably *very* useful, and may well be more useful than SE or FE then.

You're absolutely right!

I've only been playing D&D for about 16 years now, and about twice a week playing Pathfinder for the last 5 or so. I'll let you know if this EVER happens.

Absolutely meaningless. Just because you are playing it that way - and 16 years is not really that long, mind you - it does not mean that your way is typical. It is not "the right way". It is not "wrong" either. Just your way of playing, and that is all right and good for you.

Lemmy wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
*stuff*

Spotting the trap is a non-issue, since everyone can do that already and many classes are better than Rogues at it, so when I say Trap Finding, what I mean is "the ability to disarm magical traps".

Uhm, yes, I understand - what about that? :-)

Lemmy wrote:


I don't think I've ever seen a trap, magical or not, whose only way to deal with it was "disarm it". Worst case scenario, they could be deal with Dispel Magic, but even without that there are usually many ways to circumvent them (which is a good thing, IMO).

Players should never be stopped from being creative, that is right :-)

However, sometimes there is not the time for that.
And dispel magic may not be available, your CL may be too low or you just roll bad... I have played 3.5 adventures and some homebrewed stuff where quite a few magical traps were there. Not everywhere, but in spots you don't really expect, like NOT that "big dark door over there with the skulls", but in a quare in a corridor that connected to unimportant rooms but was in the general direction of the enemy...
And at those times, in enemy territory, it is absolutely great not to use ressourcs or risk lives when you have someone with the ability to disable those traps :-)

Lemmy wrote:


Smite Evil works on lots of creatures. Evil is almost certainly the most common alignment in the Bestiaries.

Guess what: Heroes are assumed to be good or neutral, enemies bad. So when a publisher prints a book as an additional ressource for players to have challenges, the evil alignment will clearly dominate.

But it's meaningless again - nobody HAS to go through the bestiary and use those monsters. Show me where the so often cited "RAW" claims you have to do that. I am sure you won't find that.
Instead it is perfectly legitimate to create your own campaign. It is no less right or wrong than using the bestiary.

Lemmy wrote:


Instant Enemy is a swift action spell, it doesn't take time at all. And any would-be Ranger player can always ask the GM if the campaign will have focus on any specific type of enemy, just like a would-be Rogue player can ask if the campaign will feature lots of traps.

That's right. But the ranger does not have that many FEs and spells available as he may encounter in a single day. Particularly with mixed opponent groups, e.g. bandits comprised of humans, half-elves and dwarves.

Traps don't need a special ability for each trap type on the other hand :-)

The swift property certainly makes it more useful, thanks for correcting. It's been a while that I've looked at that spell :-)

Lemmy wrote:


If Trap Finding is "always on", then so is Favored Enemy. Both are always active, they just happen to be completely useless when the situation they are meant to be used doesn't arrive. The difference is that the bonus from FE is more likely to be useful and be activated with a swift action after a while.

Your games, fine. Ours not.

Lemmy wrote:


Trap Finding is more like the Tracking. An "always on" bonus that doesn't matter 90% of the time, and even when it does, it's usually not a big deal. I was glad to see tracking being made an universal ability, and I'm glad to see Trap Finding going the same way.

Disagree the same way as above. Your games, your opinion.

Lemmy wrote:


Trap Finding would be useful in 1st Ed D&D, when a trap could easily wipe out your party. That's usually not the case in PF. Of course, you can make a campaign full of deadly magic traps to justify Trap Finding, but you can do the same with any class feature, no matter how weak. Make a campaign filled to the brim with fear effect and Bravely looks pretty nice, but like the campaign with numerous deadly magical traps with no way to circumvent but disarming, it's not an standard assumption of PF.

Here again is the bias so many show here. You don't "make a campaign full of deadly magic traps to *justify* Trap Finding". You make a campaign full of deadly magic traps because it fits your scenario and what you envision. Paizo is *very* easy with their APs when it comes to fighting high level spell casters in their own playground. They do relatively littel to protect themselves, strangely enough.

But that's a property of APs, not of the game what it can or may be in general.

Lemmy wrote:


Rogues have... Sneak Attack, Trap Finding, skill points and Rogue Talents.

Sneak Attack could be great... If Rogues didn't have the worst accuracy in the game (save for arcane casters) and didn't have HP, AC and saves so bad that staying in melee is almost a death sentence past low levels.

Hm, I wonder how all those rogues in our parties even in Paizo APs like Rise of the Runelords survived, even though they went into close combat all the time... :-P

Lemmy wrote:


Trap Finding is situational, and as I said before, even when there are traps, there always more than one way to deal with. Making your signature class feature completely irrelevant... Also, being the trap guy is often more of a burden than a bonus. Usually the party will stay at a safe distance and let the Rogue (or replacement) deal with the trap and suffer the consequences alone.

Uhm, if that is the responsibility or "job" the rogue *character* accepts, what is the problem there? Should all be there to catch the heat if he/she fails?

Lemmy wrote:


Skill Points are always nice... But despite the numerical advantage being the same, while the difference between having 2 or 4 is huge, the difference between having 8 or 6 skill points is pretty small.

I agree here - unless you really need those 2 points :-P

But then again, the class skills are more important IMO, because even minor investments like 1 or 2 points plus trained bonus goes a long way to make a skill useful to you.
Lemmy wrote:


Rogue Talents are mostly a joke. There are a few good one, but none are impressive, just "Nice, I guess...", which seems to be the class' mantra.

Hm, it depends on the situation.

For example ledge walker is very useful if you try to get somewhere and you don't want to be flatfooted against, let's say, rogue archers? :-P

Let me try to put things differently:
If you use
- the bestiaries
- Paizo's APs
- PFS
- and your own group's games
as the basic reason to say trapfinding is so unimportant it is worth a trait, I cannot and will not argue against that. Part of it is your own playstyle, the rest is just what Paizo puts out.

If you however use
- what can be done by the classes in various situations
- homebrew stuff (without changing rules, mind you)
- people's preference when it comes to magical / nonmagical characters
- personal preferences of abilities that are a few times a day versus always on abilities
then you may come to a different conclusion :-)


Lemmy wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

They are situational abilities, quite valuable when you need them.

So just because it isn't valuable in your opinion, does not mean it actually is.
FE is useless if you never meet your FE. Smite evil is useless when you have no evil opponents. Trapfinding is useless when you have no dangerous magic traps.

Others here have stated that they had to dip or choose archetypes to get it. So it wasn't so useless as you make it out to be.

Comparing Trap Finding with Smite Evil is ridiculous. One is a game class-defining feature that is useful in lots of combats and can change the tide of battle. The other a situational bonus that can very well never be used.

SE or FE are only "more powerful" when your definition is based on combat. And in most Paizo Adventure Paths combat is pretty much the core, you rarely advance without it.

So based on that definition I would agree with you that SE and FE are a lot more powerful than trapfinding (they really should have renamed "trapfinding" to "trapdisarming" btw, but that is off-topic).

When you are in a dungeon with deadly traps who do not just cause HP damage, but
- cause ability damage
- destroy equipment
- trap you forever (i.e. game over)
- alert enemies who then meet you in such force that you cannot handle it
then it is arguably *very* useful, and may well be more useful than SE or FE then.

If a GM decides to homebrew a campaign where most people are TN and it's e.g. a crime/detective oriented game, then SE and FE are rather useless (FE less useless than SE).
There is no "standard game" or "standard setting". Paizo APs are only played by a small part of the PF players, and even fewer attend these boards. There is no right or wrong game design, so it might well be that 80% of the players play campaigns without any combat. Or 90% play campaigns without any traps. Or 60% play only with humans, no elves/dwarves/monsters... We never know.

When I look at a class and its features I try to think of situations where it can be useful without specifically tailoring it to the class or with an unlikely scenario. And for the rogue I find enough situations and possible scenarios where it works.

Lemmy wrote:


I'm willing to bet Evil enemies are much more common than magic traps that can't be circumvented, avoided or simply triggered from a safe distance.

When looking at the features I don't try to make that assumption. For Paizo APs you are right, there are mostly evil enemies. But not necessarily for 3rd party or homebrewed games, who are as legitimate as any other scenario to base an assessment on.

Lemmy wrote:


Hell, even Detect Evil is much better than Trap Finding! And even though it can be replaced by cheap items and 1st-level spells, I still play Paladins.

FE is a lot more situational... But some creature types are pretty common, and Instant Enemy is a thing.

If you have a lot of different humanoid races you will have problems keeping up with those FE selections. And instant enemy costs quite a high level spell for your and requires time to setup. Hardly comparable to an "always on" ability like traüfinding.

Lemmy wrote:


I'm sorry, but if trap finding is all Rogues have going for them, they were never worth playing.

If it was that case, you would be right.

If you read my post you have seen that I am none of those who say so :-)

Lemmy wrote:


The fact is that every other class gets one or two things that inspire players to shout "Awesome!", while Rogues only get class features that at best invoke a "That's nice, I guess...".

Not sure about that. I know quite a few players who just love evasion or some of the talents or having the many class skills or being able to reliably take 10 on skill checks...

It certainly does not have things that immediately make you scream to want to have them. But then again, that is the case for other classes as well.


MrSin wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
I consider this to be a bad design, a trait like that is too cheap. Some agree with me, others don't. That's ok, I don't need to convince you - and I guess you feel the same the other way around.
Alternative to the trait being bad design, the rogue and trapfinding are.

That's opinion - can't argue against that ;-)


MrSin wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

They are situational abilities, quite valuable when you need them.

So just because it isn't valuable in your opinion, does not mean it actually is..
We should talk more about how opinions don't make something, something. I think that'll lead somewhere.

That's fine :-)

I consider this to be a bad design, a trait like that is too cheap. Some agree with me, others don't. That's ok, I don't need to convince you - and I guess you feel the same the other way around.

I don't think the rogue is invalidated by this. It?s drifting into a rogue is useless thread again, though, so let's stop it there

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