Sangalor's page

@Diego: Just to make sure, I know who the quote is from. It does not apply to this situation, though. That's what I refer to with "reasoning" :-)

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Flashohol wrote:

Most item creation feats require you to have a Caster Level not the ability to cast spells like the pre-req for Arcane Strike. Now spell trigger and spell completion are pointless with out actual spell casting ability, but Arms and Armor & Wonderous you don't need the spell you can increase the spellcraft check by 5 and still make the item.

So thats my reasoning for asking in the first place, i understand the difference but I don't see where you need actual spellcasting and not just caster level.

You need spellcasting (and not just SLAs) because the Creating Magic Items chapter repeatedly says "spells" and "spellcasters," not "spell-like abilities" and "creatures with spell-like abilities" (the only time the word "spell-like" appears in that chapter is the sentence "Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar").

So sure, in the broadest interpretation, having a caster level for a spell-like ability means that you can meet the caster level prerequisite for Brew Potion and such, but according to the Magic Item Creation rules, you still can't create any items because nothing in that section says you can use spell-like abilities to create magic items as if they were spells. In addition, most of the item crafting feats say "you can create a [potion, scroll, wand, etc.] of any spell you know," but having an SLA doesn't mean you know that spell.

We also have FAQs that state that metamagic feats don't work on SLAs (because they aren't spells) and SLAs don't count as spellcasting for the purpose of activating spell completion and spell trigger items (because they aren't spells).

SLAs aren't spells, they're spell-like abilities, meaning they are like spells but are not actually spells (otherwise they'd just be called spells and we wouldn't have SLAs as a separate game unit).

From...

Please read my quotes above, I already posted all of what you stated. Furthermore, I even quoted where it specifically says that spell-like abilities *can* be used, so your reasoning is incorrect.

Please show me where it says that the prerequisites for magic arms and armor or wondrous items require you to be a *spellcaster*. The *only* thing you need is a caster level, which - coincidentally - is exactly what master craftsman provides you with :-)

So no, that is no proof but rather strengthens my view of it :-)

King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

Yeah, I saw that. However, it doesn't doesn't completely help, since you still can't craft rods or rings. Not to mention you have to have a billion and one craft skills to get an versatility out of the feat. I was hoping I had found a method of bypassing a crummy feat tax, but I guess it's back to the drawing board.

You don't need a Billion and one craft skills to get versatility. Just base it off of Profession (Thief) or Profession (Burglar). Then you can craft anything that can be stolen. It's funny and flavorful.

Rogue: "Hey fighter, check out this awesome sword"

Fighter: "This is really nice. Did you craft it yourself?"

Rogue: "Craft? Um... Yeah... Yeah, I crafted it myself. But on an unrelated note, I don't think you should ever try to sell that sword in this town."

I love the idea :-D

"because everything else I have seen so far has some kind of limitation like "Generally...", not some hard and clear-cut statement."

It's a hard and clear-cut statement for everything than exceptions wich are especially mentioned.

So it does not qualify, because the feats state a "caster level", not an "effective caster level" and caster level is generally defined as levels in a caster class and the feat does not state any exceptions to this rule.

Where is the term "effective caster level" mentioned?

Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the gnome's Charisma modifier.

It says "caster level", not "effective caster level". Limiting it to "these effects" is no different IMO than limiting it in the way of "for this spellcasting class".

A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

and

A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.

There are two limitations in the statement: For "most" and "spellcasting characters". Someone who uses a spell-like ability is not a spellcasting character. And even if he was, "most" limits it further - probably to also cover the 7/10 advancing prestige classes or those with a reduced caster level like ranger or paladin. So it either does not apply to spell-like abilities or leaves enough room to interpret it differently.

I searched the magic chapter and found no limitation.
I also checked the magic items chapter:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

This is not really relevant to the question of whether you can pick up the feat or not, but interesting to see: Spell-like abilities also count for fulfilling crafting requirements.

So to sum it up, I do not see the need for a clear statement that permits the existance of spell-like abilities to qualify for taking feats, but either a) a statement somewhere that says "spell-like abilities" / "the caster level for spell-like abilities" do not qualify, or b) some statement somewhere in the line of "only spellcasters qualify for taking crafting feats" :-)

IF you have an exception to the general rule, it's explicitly stated. That's why the Prestige classes are mentioned in the next sentence and why spell-like abilities state an effective caster level for their use.

The crafting feats don't state such an exception, therefore you don't have one and the general rule applies.

Uhm, sorry, I don't get what you say :-)

Does it qualify or does it not qualify?

And by the way, sometimes they restate the rules in effect to emphasize something, but that does not mean that you are to interpret that you always need an explicit statement for something to apply - which seems to be what you are doing with the reference above, but I am not sure :-)

Resurrecting this thread hoping for some more details :-)

I read the arguments above but am not convinced that a spell-like ability's caster level does not qualify for the feats.
I know that spell-like abilities do not qualify for activation of magical items or the like, that's clear from the rules.

However, the feat only states that you need a "caster level". It does not say you need a caster level from a spellcasting class or that you need to be able to cast arcane or divine spells. When crafting arms, armor or wondrous items you do not need the "spell" on your class list and can simply eat the additional spellcraft requirements.

For example, AFAIK the whole debate on alchemists not being able to use crafting feats is based on the argument that they do not have a caster level. Furthermore, other feats like arcane blast not only require you to have a caster level but have the additional requirement of being an "arcane spellcaster"...

What I basically am searching for is a quote like "This does not allow you to qualify for feats...", because everything else I have seen so far has some kind of limitation like "Generally...", not some hard and clear-cut statement.

Don't get me wrong, I am fine if you can point me to a clear definition that states it does not apply. So far it's just a bit dissatisfying :-)

Note: FAQ'ed the OP's post.

... The closest they get is Armor Mastery, which reduces the armor check penalty to skills. I'd love to hear the argument that Armor Mastery is somehow equal footing outside of combat compared to even a Paladin's non-combat spells...

I think you are overlooking something extremely important about armor training: It allows you to move in armor without impeding your speed. Thus fighters are the only class that can tumble (acrobatics) in medium and heavy armor, nobody else can do that.

Also, even small plusses can make the difference between making checks and, for example, NOT fall down the pit of hungry lions or NOT drowning :-)

Yahoo, another "fighters have problems", "fighters suck", ... threads :-P

These never seem to die out.
To make it short from my side:
- Fighters work really well
- Fighters are pretty much the only truly mundane combat class. I like that!
- You don't need weird or predetermined backgrounds to explain why a fighter is what he is (no faith, arcane studies etc.)
- Fighters are consistent. And yes, our casters had to learn the hard day that we don't stop after novaing the first hour of a travel day. And when you can always stop when the other classes are out of juice, then you play a very different game then I do
- The feats are very flexible, particularly when you look at feats for UMD, eldritch heritage, skill focus etc.
- Fighters cannot be shut down by emotion calming effects (barbarians), are out of luck when encountering the wrong enemy (ranger), the enemy is not evil (paladin) etc.
- Focusing on combat only is a mistake by the player, not the class
- The fighter-only feats provide great options, e.g. to lock down foes, like teleport tactician
- They are wonderful with class dips
- Most of the above and some more has already been written, I just emphasize ;-)

Regarding the question what armor training and weapon training give you:
- Weapon training: Besides increasing the bonuses to hit and damage, you can also choose to ignore weapon spec and focus on other things if you like. And the bonuses to CMB/CMD you get are across a wide range of weapons. Finally, it's particularly useful for weapons where you can't get extra damage bonuses easily, e.g. a crossbow.
- Armor training: Fighter is the only class that can tumble (acrobatics) in heavy armor. Otherwise the only race I am aware of that can do it are dwarves. Finally, the improvements to armor check penalty allow a fighter to swim/climb etc. in armor.

If you are interested, search for Bob Loblaw's post regarding 40 (or more) things only fighters can do. Great stuff in there :-)

Summon monster can be great, though summons can easily countered as well. In general, from my personal experience, I would say summoning is worth it if
- the summons have special abilities like healing, blur, cone attacks etc.
- they provide benefits just by being there - for example summoning them into flanking position for the rogue/vivisectionist alchemsit/ninja/whatever -, blocking corridors, threatening casters etc.
- you need flexibility from a single spell
- you need an "expendable" creature, e.g. for disarming etc.
- you can summon several "good enough" creatures instead of just one
- you can afford not to dump too much into it, e.g. your concepts does not require you to get every single summon spell there is but just certain ones like summon swarm, summon monster III etc.
- you can remain hidden, invisible or the like while doing it
- you have reliable means of communicating with them where necessary
- you are prepared enough to not hold up gameplay too much

There are lots of ways how you can benefit from summons without them themselves being powerful. If you have intelligent summons with whom you can communicate, they can aid another on you or the melee ally and thus ensure hits and effectivity.
They can spring traps, carry you or equipment, concentrate abilities on foes etc. Or, as another example, once in a campaign, my cleric summoned a dog to fulfill a sacrificial requirement which required the life force of a creature to open the way for the party to move on - without having to risk a party member for this.

Augment summoning is cool and helpful, but others like sacred summons can also be worth it. My cleric used the latter one with Azatas to fantastic effect - investing in a feat that could effectively work only with three creatures on the summoning list totally paid off...

Regarding Mystic Theurge: Unless you start at a high level, I suggest to have more levels in one class than the minimum before you start with the other one. For example, having 4th level spells in two classes (cleric 3/wizard 3/MT 4) at level 10 is more painful IMO then having 3rd level spells in one class at level 5 and then 2nd level spells at 8th level in another class and then going into MT to get 4th and 3rd level spells an level 10 (e.g. wizard 5/cleric 3/MT 2). Though it is less optimal from a pure spellcasting distribution, you reach the higher levels more reliably since you gain the important 3rd levels spells without delay, and you gain some good class features.
When you can, I would also try to reduce MAD, i.e. go with empyreal sorcerer/divine WIS based caster combo.

Hope this helps :-)

Edit: spell levels

Ashiel wrote:

Caius wrote:

WPharolin wrote:

Ahh wait. Brain was addled. It was Allips not Shadows. There ya go. Get youself allips and sick em on the tarrasque. Now you can defeat it with a CR 3.

Only if they crit.

Given that the Tarrasque cannot evade the allips, it is only a matter of time. 1/20 attacks is likely to be a crit. The allip can fly through solid objects and has a 30 ft. perfect fly speed, and is 100% immune to anything the Tarrasque can fling against it. CR 3 Allip > Tarrasque.

[

Maybe it's just me, but I believe the Tarrasque's natural weapons affect Incorporeal Creatures

DR:
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Incorporeal:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Overcoming magic dr is not the same as being a magic weapon.

Dabbler wrote:

Gauntlet/Cestus/Brass Knuckle because they are cheaper to enchant than an amulet, and static bonuses count more and you have a better upper limit. Over them the bonus damage from using the higher dice of the monk's unarmed strike soon pales to insignificance.

And yes, it is. Effectively the monk's unarmed strikes deal damage as two-handed weapons. Dragon Ferocity is the best way to go to dish out damage from a strength monk.

didnt the aomf get a price reduction and buff recently? also, with three monk levels and a robe then full unarmed or brawler fighter, wouldnt you get the best of both (good base dice and lots of good static bonuses, as well as possible styles)?

Monks are almost always good dips. I have built fighter/monk mixes before, and they are great. Samples:

I'm building a Magus so this guide has been invaluable to me.

Walter's Magus Guide

My particular Magus is a human dervish. I like to check the bottom of the guide to see if my magus is on track with the attack modifiers, etc that are suggested in the dervish build.

When I looked ahead at the Level 6 Dervish comments, it looks like Walter came up with some modifiers that I could not account for. Please check my analysis out below and leave comments :)

He states:

"Now his Arcane Accuracy pool enhanced scimitar is keen, and when he takes attacks with spell combat, after arcane strike, he hits for two attacks at +14/+14, both that can crit on a 15-20, with one hitting for 1d6+7 and the other hitting for 6d6+7 (including shocking grip). Again, this is a pretty hefty damage output, especially on a crit. He can also power attack now to pump those numbers higher. "

So here's the breakdown of modifiers that I can account for:

Magus at level 6:

Attack Modifiers
----------------
BAB+4
Weapon Finesse +4 (from Dex)
Arcane Accuracy +3 (from Int) - swift action, 1 round
Arcane Pool +1, keen - swift action, 1 minute
Weapon Focus +1
Magic sword +1
Spell Combat -2

By my math, that adds up to +12/+12 for two attacks, not +14.

Additional points of concern/interest:

This tactic requires 2 rounds of setup (including the one the attack takes place in), 3 if you could that he mentions wading into battle with Mirror Image up. It breaks down further when it looks like he's got Arcane Strike and Arcane Accuracy going off in the same round....requiring two simultaneous swift actions. This isn't legal, is it?

So this guide is fantastic and has been a bible of sorts for my creation of my Magus. My comments above aren't to ridicule Walter's guide as much as to discover where my math might be off or this build might be more powerful than I realized. I certainly HOPE that is the...

Hm, looking at his guide it seems to be off already at level 3:

Regarding Darth Grall's comment about shocking strike I disagree; I don't think you get the touch spell attack bonus for attacking someone with metal when you spell strike; for spell combat he would be right though. But I think we are referring to the other case here.

Anyway, at level 6 you seem to be right. I don't see where he got the +14 from; I assume he made the mistake to add arcane strike to the to-hit as well.
Alternatively the weapon was a +1 keen weapon and he used the +2 enhancement points (after level 5 you get 2 for spending 1 point) from his pool for attacking bonuses, which would bring him to +14/+14. If he put 1 into keen and 1 to enhancement he would have +13/+13.
So it should be one of the above. The setup would be as Darth Grall described using at least two rounds. :-)

yes, but:

Standard
Move
Swift.

Any of the higher slots could go to do a lower slotted ability.
ie: Double Move. Is a move action to move, and a standard action to move.

Wrong. In PF you may take a move action instead of a standard action, nothing else (swift instead of move etc.).

Furious focus is a well-balanced feat which I consider to be quite worth investing into - depending on what you want to do.
As others have stated, for non-full-BAB classes it's really good.
For full BAB it depends on what you want to do. Personally I always consider it for my characters:
- It's simpler calculation for the first hit
- It has made me hit things I might have missed otherwise. And really, you sometimes need to finish that opponent before he finishes your ally, and you need the damage from PA, and I *must* hit then.
- It's great when you have to move a lot.
- It's a prerequisite for dreadful carnage (great for action economy for intimidation builds).

Btw I think that comparing it to weapon focus is not adequate. WF binds you to a single type of weapon, FF can be used with almost all 1H/2H weapons. BIG difference :-)

@Shallowsoul: what do you mean, can you plz give me alink?

I think RP is quite decent as a prestige class.
You get static boosts to saves, lots of new options including casting and do not lose too much BAB. I think you profit much more out of rage and out of combat, but at least for me that's fine.
One player at our table just took his first levels in this class, I'll be curious how it turns out. Knowing him I think it will be quite effective, though :-P

Also consider the other curses besides lame curse. Though they may not allow you rage cycling, you may still build cool and versatile characters this way, e.g. an emissary barbarian (understands and speaks every language thanks to tongues curse), a sentinel type barbarian (vision curse, see and hear almost everything eventually) etc.

Anyway, you might want to consider putting more into charisma.

Regarding the original question, I don't think that Zen Archers outdamage optimized archers.
I do think that they are one of the best class/archetype combos there is, though. Currently I am playing one in Serpent Skull, and the great selection of bonus feats allowed me to invest in feats like great fortitude, endurance, skill focus and so on without becoming ineffective. So I can have some great extras (like special profession just for RP purposes), great defenses and great mobility while being quite decent at offense.

So when you are looking purely at damage, ZA probably won't win. But if you look at the entire package, they are fantastic and at the very least hold their own compared to the other archer builds :-)

james maissen wrote:

I'm sorry I don't really understand this line..

If you're not going to be going with the RAW, then what does it matter what the author happened to intend or not intend? Just go with how YOU see the archetype working and be done with it. That trumps whatever some person you are likely never to meet happens to feel one day, doesn't it?

Frankly, I'm disappointed with Paizo's handling of archetypes being written as errata to a class rather than simply rewriting it out to avoid this kind of confusion. The Sohei is one of the worse archetypes in this respect.

'Some person happens to feel one day?' You mean the author, the day he wrote it? So you're going to go with the 'it's RAW so use it!' argument even though the author says, 'I know it came out sounding like this, but I meant this...' just because it hasn't yet been errata'd? And yeah, we generally do use things the way we think they should be played. I didn't need the author to tell me what he meant, it was obvious to me. I was just pointing out the weakness of the 'It's RAW!' argument after you do, in fact, know RAI.

I agree with James here.

It happens quite often that the version of a class, archteype etc. differs in the final printed version from what the author originally submitted. When this is an oversight, Paizo fixes it. Until then - an official errata, an official FAQ or the like - it remains the way it is and may even remain that way forever because it is or becomes the intended version.
Note also that in the specific instance of the author the post of him that I recall stated explicitly that his word has no weight since Paizo does change things intentionally from time to time.

It is one thing if a wording is unclear, then a post or FAQ can clarify it (though as has been noted, Paizo has changed rulings and FAQs before, so YMMV there). If something is written completely different, as in the case of the Sohei, then at least at our table we wait if it is officially errataed/FAQed, because before that we don't know what the final version really may be :-)

We only change it if we have a problem with it. In the case of the Sohei, I personally don't see the problem.

I recommend reading up some Planet Stories. I could totally see this character being from Vercex in the solar system, or like a Technic League breakaway from Numeria.

If you wanted to pull off like a Dune concept, you could go knife fighter rogue with talents at 2nd and 4th being magic and advanced magic, get like shield or mage armor, then protection from arrows. Feats like improved grapple and strangler. Then you're a knife guy, find a way to get desert runner traits and silent hunter maybe, so elf could be a good race, with forcefields.

To pull a John Carter, level 4 ranger with the jump spell and twf tree, done. You could rock lead blades and gravity bow to represent the strength that comes from being a heavy gravity worlder. I know he was called Barbarian of Mars but that is relative.

For the original concept you were thinking of, I really like the idea of the bonded item for a spellbook, or holy symbol, etc.

With the right school and/or domains, you could do incredibly technological stuff.

I find clerics easier to reflavor because the 3/4 bab and d8 and medium armor and all simple weapons at least gives a more versatile baseline. With the right domains, skill selection, race, gear choice, a cleric can fill nearly any hybrid role, often better than anything else.

Dune sounds pretty cool, gotta think a bit into that direction...

What kind of technological stuff that depends on domains or schools do you have in mind? :-)

Is the ARG available?

If so, the Experimental Gunsmith Gnome Gunslinger archetype is right up your alley.

Also, Elves are from another planet. In fact, there are still a bunch of "Elf Gates" all over Golarion, though they mostly don't work.

Very Stargate.

Cool idea. But as stated above, only CRB, APG and UM are ok :-)

Unless you're set on him being an actual caster, I might think of a Rogue, with heavy investment into Use Magic Device and a ton of wands, scrolls, and wondrous items. You could imagine the skill as being his application of a technological scanner that allows him to scan, identify, and apply the magical effects of various items that he finds.

By level 11, if you're not spending much money on magical weapons and armor, you should have plenty of cash to buy an awesome variety of applicable items.

A UMD character with a massive bag of tricks is a lot closer to the imaginary "wizard with an answer to everything" than an actual wizard usually is. :)

Rogue is fine and one of the things I thought of :-)

Any class in the books mentioned above is OK :-)

@Sangalor

Focused shot requires 2 feats (PBS and precise shot), and you suggest eating up your swift action and using another feat (arcane strike) in order to be able to attack with your 1/2 BAB against normal AC in order to do 5-15 (if you hit) at mid levels? spending 4 feats that wizards don't normally take in order to use your action to do 5-15 damage in order to converse spells, at mid levels, are you kidding me?

No, I am only half-kidding.

If you're a wizard focusing on rays you'd have pbs and precise shot anyway. focused shot is just one more feat, and arcane strike is something generally useful.
If you wish, consider that for an EK.

It's all about versatility. But that's beyond this thread I guess :-P

Darklone wrote:

The wording is old from the 3.0 Campaign setting.

Focused Shot would be fun for alchemists that don't want to throw several bombs per round. Sadly, it's not even for firearms.

WHY?

In case they don't want to anything else with their turn than make ONE shot with a bow or a crossbow and then recieve a small bonus to damage?
That is SO circumstantial that it doen't warrant the use of a feat, especially on a feat starved class like the alcemist.

Well, if you were a wizard with a high INT, high DEX and want to be able to make use of your mostly single attack without sacrificing spells, then focused shot might be a good thing to do. Maybe add in arcane strike, and for icing on the cake put gravity bow on it you will be rather decent :-P

Android is one of the newer books.

TBH, you are pretty much stuck with flavoring a spellcaster as a high-tech character.

Summoner with a holographic servant? Wizard with a scanner (bonded item) that can do lots of things (spells) using exotic matter and datasets he keeps on himself (spell component pouch)? Magus ... as some sort of high tech knight; get yourself a brilliant energy sword and call it a day?

Thanks, some good ideas in there! :-)

Really, I am also fine with a rogue, master craftsman and craft feats, using wands etc... As stated, it does not have to be powerful, just falvorful and workable.

Brilliant sword is a good idea, I will keep that in mind.

I also think maybe having some sort of small cannon mounted at an arm that shoots off all those evocation spells like dragon breath etc. could be an option...

The holographic servant is interesting, maybe the "doctor" from star trek (ranks in heal, knowledge nature etc.) or the like. Hmmm.... :-P

Summoner is OK, but as others have stated it's complicated, easily built incorrectly, has lots of FAQs and can be very time consuming due to the many actions the player gets.

As a DM, you can easily counter a lot of this with standard tactics, however, e.g. dispelling, magic circles/protection from, using smart enemies who target the summoner and not his big charging eidolon etc.
It will be more work than with other classes IMO, particularly since the player can effectively completely rebuild his eidolon at each level and thus adapt.

I would not ban it, but only give it in the hands of an experienced and thorough player.

android(race) alchemist. blind them, with SCIENCE!

or android + any melee or shooty character.

wordcasting also works well if you want spellcasting (if your GM allows it), as its easily fluffable as you using 'console commands' to alter the universe's nature and structure.

As I stated in the first post, the only books allowed are CRB, APG and UM. So unless that android race is some fluff with human in there and that's what you mean, it's out. Wordcasting is definitely out. :-)

Regarding the alchemist idea: For the most part I cannot envision the extract-drinking stuff to fit the sci-fi bits, except maybe for transmutation effects.
But how about the guy wearing some kind of multifunctional full-arm-length glove where he inserts the extracts, they get processed and the glove actually (with blinking lights, status message etc.) creates the necessary effect? So the extracts would just be working as ingredients, fuel and the like?

@Whale_Cancer/DMasterE: Regrettably other books are not available, that's set and agreed upon. So UC and 3.5 material is out.

@VRMH: Wizard and alchemist are obvious, yes. I would not limit myself to it, though. What I am really wondering is
- what would those items look like? For example, boots of springing and striding could be part of the armor, with bigger boots that have hydraulic (always powered, thus magical) supporters integrated
- is there any kind of "activation sequence" he would use?
- how would such a person fight?
and so on...

@all: thanks for the quick replies, though I am looking for more details and ideas, partial or full concepts etc. :-)

One note ahead: I do not wish to homebrew any stuff, this is just about fluff and style.

I am playing in a serpent skull campaign and have just hit level 11. In case one of my characters dies, I would like to have a backup character. I already do have one (magus/hexcrafter), so if it's possible to apply the following to him that's perfect, otherwise a new one would be acceptable as well.

So the rules we have are:
- Books: only Core Rule Book, Advanced Player'S Guide, Ultimate Magic (not alternative rules like wordcasting etc. though) -> no other material, not even campaign/AP specific ones
- Level 11
- Wealth: 62000GP
- No evil alignment
- PBS 20, 2 traits

What I envision is the character to be more sci-fi than typical fantasy, or a mixture thereoff (think final fantasy XII): magic works off equipment he wears in addition or maybe is embedded into him, ioun stones/light is more like flowing light bulbs, armor (though having the same drawbacks etc.) works more like force shields etc.
If necessary, the background could be an engineer who stranded on the world and has learned to adapt during the past years, but - e.g. through craft wondrous items - built his own equipment in a rather atypical way.

I am open for creative suggestions, classes, races and so on - but there should not be an impact on the standard Golarion campaign world. It also should not depend on being in any kind of society or organisation. Finally, it does not have to be a powerful character, just being flavorful and not useless is fine :-)

Happily waiting for ideas :-)

I recently built a paladin 6/monk 3/shadowdancer 2; alternatively paladin 7/monk 2/shadowdancer 2. That obviously does not go for shadowdancer as quickly as possible, but it's one way to do it.
The requirements for shadowdancer are fairly easy, you can basically reach it at level 5 and go into it at level 6.

I think it's pretty cool flavor-wise, and adding evasion, darkvision etc. to hit is really cool. In my example, monk allows for extra bonus feats, further boosts to saves, unarmed combat, stunning abilities and more.

I think if you accept that you do not need the paladin spells, higher auras etc. it can work out quite well. Particularly with some of the oaths like oath of charity you gain a lot of flexibility in your mercies, oath of vengeance gives you lots of extra smites, and silver smite bracelet improves your smites.

By increasing your charisma, your saves go up, but so do your shadow powers later.

I have not decided if I want the shadow, but I see no problems from the paladin code. It has your alignment, thus it's LG - maybe the "cosmic forces of law and good" sent an ancient knight to "shadow" you and assist you? :-P

Have fun with it :-)

I played though the AP, and I think without a full arcane and a full divine caster you stand almost no chance later on. You need spells in certain situations right then, and you also are sometimes likely to get wrong information, so you cannot prepare adequately with items or the like. You also will find treasure of little value to sell but of high value to use for casters, e.g. Spellbooks.

I would say you might make it to level 6 or so, but then you either die or just don't know how to go forward.

Just for the fun of it: how about paladin/magus(or bard)/mt? ;-)
Not a powerful caster, but survivable and unusual for sure :-P

The answer is no you can't - unless you find a way to "wield" a natural weapon with two hands ;-)

Tired, quickly posting before going to bed:

Tactics for the fighter are:
- Attacking with two-handed weapon
- At the start of the turn he puts his shield away (free action, thanks to quickdraw+quickdraw shield), attacks two-handed, puts it on as a free action again
- He can haste himself for 10 rounds a day (+1 attack, +1 extra attack, +1 reflex saves)
- Thanks to furious focus his first attack is always with power attack at his best bonus starting at level 8

Attack bonus without PA:
- level 7: +14
- level 8: +15
thus his attacks at level 7:
- moving: +12 - 2d6+14
- full attack: +12/+7 - 2d6+14
- hasted: +13/+13/+8 - 2d6+14
thus his attacks at level 8:
- moving: +15 - 2d6+19
- full attack: +15/+7 - 2d6+19
- hasted: +16/+13/+8 - 2d6+19

Finally, an improved monk:

He can regain ki over and over by drinking ale, he got lots of funds left, e.g. to buy tankards of ale...

Hope it's interesting :-)

EDIT: Forgot to add ranged to the dwarf fighter. He has acceptable output, particularly when hasted: 1d8+7 at level 7, 1d8+10 at level 8. Attack bonus is +9/+4 unhasted at level 7 and 8, +10/+10/+5.

@Ilja:

What I meant with move+attack is that in the case of a single attack (due to moving, e.g. when flying/moving to enemies) the Synthesist will suffer much more.

I also disagree on the ranged damage: The synthesist first has to get to it to hurt it, and I don't consider the damage as piddly as you make it out to be :-)

Casting spells shouldn't be factored in here, because you don't do damage then, and that was your point I thought... If we allow casting/using magic items then the game changes a lot. For example, potions and other consumables become an option, that changes things a lot IMO.

5 hours adventuring day is definitely too short for me, sorry. And the APs I've played definitely have more then 1-2 hours, especially since you don't know *when* the enemy will attack. Otherwise you will have to reduce one round of attacks with your synthesist for casting mage armor ;-)
Also, really, even APs aren't the only thing: People play different games, and I assume at least a 12-14 hour adventuring day: 8 hours resting plus a few hours for eating/cooking/...

Regarding level 7: I'll look at it. I would possibly change the build, but I gotta look into it :-)

Addition: Let's do level 8, at least additionally. Otherwise the next step for martials is lost again...

By the way, I have not yet seen anything that makes synthesists problematic or broken - just a nice package. So this is more for the fun and out of curiosity. Great to look into it together :-)

@Ilja:
What I meant with move+attack is that in the case of a single attack (due to moving, e.g. when flying/moving to enemies) the Synthesist will suffer much more.

I also disagree on the ranged damage: The synthesist first has to get to it to hurt it, and I don't consider the damage as piddly as you make it out to be :-)

Casting spells shouldn't be factored in here, because you don't do damage then, and that was your point I thought... If we allow casting/using magic items then the game changes a lot. For example, potions and other consumables become an option, that changes things a lot IMO.

5 hours adventuring day is definitely too short for me, sorry. And the APs I've played definitely have more then 1-2 hours, especially since you don't know *when* the enemy will attack. Otherwise you will have to reduce one round of attacks with your synthesist for casting mage armor ;-)
Also, really, even APs aren't the only thing: People play different games, and I assume at least a 12-14 hour adventuring day: 8 hours resting plus a few hours for eating/cooking/...

Regarding level 7: I'll look at it. I would possibly change the build, but I gotta look into it :-)

@Ilja: Since you mentioned a few times that you're ill - I hope you get well soon :-)

lantzkev wrote:

Then you're lvl 11 before you can first be huge, level 13 before you get the lvl 10 abilities, and are behind on evolutions and caster levels. (which the caster levels I realize are moot, but still a consideration) The stronger you make this defensively the more you dilute and weaken it's offenses.

Again, back to the whole you can make it a bastion of defense that's nearly impregnable, but then it's like so what? (and to top it off, it's STILL able to be killed by AMF, things that don't care about saves or resists (magic missile baby, enervation!)

Sheild spell? Most Summoners would have it at 1st level... they're just as vulnerable to enervation as every other character with a poor touch AC...

Unless you can gimmick AMF as a ranged spell I can only really see it as a death sentence for the caster... (unless we're talking about tag-teams, in which case, fair enough, multiple high-level spells and multiple higher level characters do have a chance against a Synth. Maybe)

Uhm, I hope you don't think that but it reads like you intend to use shield to boost touch AC - which it does not.

Also, at least for the thought experiment Ilja and I are running buffing with shield eats up a full round due to its short duration, so it wouldn't really help you there... :-)

Sangalor wrote:

If you attack with a weapon (unarmed strike), your natural attacks all become secondary attacks (-5 to hit, only 1/2 str). Multiattack reduces the penalty to -2.

Huh, that's been erratad now I see - you are correct. I was looking at my physical book which said you take TWF penalties, but apparently that was changed. DPR for full attack is about 3 higher with this in regard.

Quote:

I actually didn't intend this build for calculations, I would boost AC more in that case - which can rather easily be done. More to show how natural attacks favor the eidolon at level 5, and that this can be turned when one tries :-)

Yeah I understand it wasn't a fully serious build, and said, the calculations was to a large degree because it was fun to do. I do think the point stands though that even this character that was so focused on offense that it gave up a LOT of defenses still only slightly outdoes the eidolon in damage.

Well, you factor the elemental damage into your build, which is quite a significant chunk for your DPR. It's not like everything is resistent to it, but it won't apply in all cases.

Also, martials are expected to be buffed somehow, particularly with haste and similar spells, so no news there.

The synthesist will have trouble with DR and things that can poison/hurt/... him when touching something with a natural attack.

Move+single attack is going to hurt him quite a bit as well, so that should be factored in.
And as you stated, ranged is a real problem for it.

What I kind of dislike a bit is using mage armor: It eats further into your spells per day, and you need to cast it at least twice (5 hours is too little), so from your total of 8 spells you're down to 6 - which you will need for all that healing stuffe ;-)

But, yes, as stated before, at level 5 the synthesist is at a sweet spot for him. I expect this to change significantly the next levels when the other martials finally get more attacks. :-)

As usually: Levels 1-2 martials shine, 3-5 they are OK but casters/mixed classes catch on, levels 6+ they start excelling again with all their additional options.

I'd love to see how this turns out at level 7? :-)

Finally, just to emphasize it, it's nice to do this kind of thought experiment :-)

lantzkev wrote:

When you average HD for PCs you take the hd halve it then add one (d6 is 4hp, d8 is 5, etc) With summoned creatures, you simply halve the max hp without adding +1, so d6 would be 3, d8 4 etc...)

That sounds like a house rule - the rule is that you roll; but when theorycrafting you usually take average on all rolls instead - so summon HD is 4.5, while eidolon HD is 5.5.

Sangalor wrote:

Text

You fighter looks fine, though I have some questions about the Barb/Monk/Ranger (I'll still call it monk as I did previously for simplicity's sake):

** spoiler omitted **

Also I think 3-4 encounters per day as typical is a bit low - the CR system is based around 4 encounters per day as typical, so 3-5 encounters would be more fair I think. I don't think the non-raging AC is relevant as it's still low and the character will have very bad offense and defense at that point.

Okay I'll redo the comparison with the new builds:
** spoiler omitted **...

No time to check the calculations there, but to answer your question about the attack bonuses: What I stated is correct. You are confusing TWF with mixing weapon and natural attacks.

I actually didn't intend this build for calculations, I would boost AC more in that case - which can rather easily be done. More to show how natural attacks favor the eidolon at level 5, and that this can be turned when one tries :-)

I'm not sure I understand your suggestion, Sangalor, what do you mean by "heal in two steps"?

A easier solution would be limiting first-aid kit with "charges", as they can run out of gaze, anti-biotics, painkillers, etcs... But it feels too similar to a simple wand of CLW, and if that's the case, what's the point?

I do like the idea of having to beat a DC equal to the patient's current health, though...

Two steps=two heal checks :)

Odraude wrote:

You could probably also allow more uses of patching up wounds with the Heal skill instead of once per day.

I always thought about this... How to make the Heal skill be able to... well, heal... Without making it abusable?

Maybe some kind of first-aid kit that can be used by succeeding at a Heal check? HP recovered = skill check would be pretty intuitive, but possibly too much.
Maybe limit the HP recovered to a daily maximum equal to the healed character Constitution score?

How about requiring the check result to beat the *current* hp and at least 10 minutes? This would limit it and prevent a full refill.

level bonus
1 6
2 7
3 8
4 9
5 10
10 15
15 20
20 25

Assuming d8 HD and a +2 CON bonus as an average, you have the following HPs
1 10
2 16
3 23
4 29
5 36
10 68
15 101
20 134

So let's say at 5th level you have suffered 75% damage, bringing you to 9hp. Taking 10 you have a 20 to heal, so you heal in two steps to 16hp, then to 19. Getting it higher afterwards is either requiring an investment into the heal skill with skill focus, or other characters aiding you (and thus investing skill points etc. as well).
You could add a scaling factor (e.g. 1/2 character level) to those classes who have heal as a class skill to allow healing to work at higher level, and to allow the healing kit to give an equal bonus for each usage.
In the end, some HPs will be left for natural healing - which is good IMO, this is the way it should be :-)

...

@sangalor - those are nice characters, especially like the monk-brawler
...

Thanks, I like versatile characters more myself :-)

...

- in comparison though, Sir Dweeb and the monk-synth I posted earlier have got 60% more hitpoints, higher AC, more attacks, spellcasting etc. (Isn't this where we came in?)
:-)

That is no single class summoner, which was the point I made with the monk-mix - dipping makes it easier. And it got drawbacks the other characters don't have. Plus it won't increase at the same rate the other characters will - so I disagree here ;-)

Sangalor wrote:

@Ilja: I think you are dismissing arguments brought forth by Cold Napalm and others too quickly as well. Summons have limited usability, and weight limits would usually be a problem there - at least with the equipment loaded party members I know. You also need to communicate with those critters if it's anything more complicated than "attack my closest enemy" which you basically get for free when summoning. And since you only get tongues as a 3rd level spell, it is not possible at the lately discussed 5th level here. Particularly for the communications with your dire bats this would be a problem, the archons wouldn't work without putting ranks into linguistics etc. So in practice this is not as great an option as it is portrayed here.

You're probably right - while I don't think the weight problem is that big (unless you've got half-orcs or some heavy non-standard race), communication can be an issue. I think I got frustrated because I felt Cold Napalm was very aggressive, ignoring obvious things and going all Shroedinger (and GOD am I tired of arguing against the Shroedinger's Build, regardless of class).

But you're right, communications is a large issue. While I think summoners should keep their linguistics at close to max (synths get quite decent skill points and not that many important class skills for most builds) that doesn't help with the bats.

** spoiler omitted **...

Thanks for taking your time of answering thoroughly :-)

I agree with a lot of your analysis. I have a few problems with the synthesist summoner used for the comparison, though:
1. Taking rend does not work since it requires a 6th level summoner. This reduces damage output
2. I tried to rebuild the synthesist summoner in hero lab. I can't get the stats right, it seems. I tried (from your comments) to go for 7 str, 8 dex, 11 con, 14 int, 14 wis, cha 19 (16 base, +2 human, +1 level bump). This gives me 28 hp for the summoner in his base form, 33 if I assign favored class bonus to hitpoints - not 41. The Eidolon I only get to Con 16 with a +1 stat bump and ability increase (constitution) evolution, resulting in 43 hitpoints - how do I get this to 46?
3. How do you get 22 AC on the summoner? I get 4 from the eidolon, 2 from shielded meld, 2 from base form, 2 from the dex bonus - which leads me to a total of 20. What am I missing?
4. Aren't there evolution points unspent? I see 8 evolution points available at level 5, which means (assuming claw biped baseform): 1 for claws, 2 for energy attacks (elictricity), 2 for ability increase (I assumed constitution). This takes up 5 points. 3 are left to spend - or am I wrong? What would you pick then? Wings? That would be another 2, but then you couldn't have taken rend...

Could someone, maybe you, do a complete build of it? Or point me to the errors, particularly what the base stats have been? I am confused here, and neither hero lab not reading the description helps me here...

So I am not sure if your analysis is correct, at least until I see a complete and correct build which matches (or maybe exceeds) it.

Still, assuming what you have there was correct, I agree with most of what you analyzed. I disagree on the eidolon taking damage: At level 5 a summoner has 4 1st and 2 2nd level spells, 5 and 3 if charisma is high enough. Assuming he gets hit as the other characters and you need to heal him, lesser rejuvenate eidolon restores 10 hps on average. So if you need to heal him completely, it would already head about half your daily spells. Mind you, that's not terrible - but you don't have much left for other things.
If the summoner sacrificed all his HPs to keep him up (and thus getting the more readily standard HP cure) that can be alleviated, but it's highly dangerous if any effects get through to him.

I built two different characters to address different claims:

Dwarf - fighters can rock high ACs, have good senses, good saves, good chances to use wands and stuff. Thus I left him with lots of gold to get consumables to shore up weaknesses or boost his attacks and versatility.
If damage output optimization was the goal, we could give him a scimitar, swap skill focus or improved bull rush for quick draw, get a light quickdraw shield. This would lower AC by 1 (still much better than the synthesist's), but allow him to put on and put away his shield as a free action (description of the shield in combination with quick draw). He can thus two-hand his scimitar, greatly increasing the output of power attack. Stats can be rearranged as well, resulting in the following:

Monk - This was to show how multiclassing with monks/pallys/etc. boosts saves and other weaknesses. As you said it's much nicer, so there my reasoning is confirmed ;-P

Generally, those martials are supposed to be boosted (party members) or output consistent damge. DR won't be a problem due to flexibility of materials, though it's not yet that common.

Level 5 seems to be a good level, though, for the synthesist, assuming the synthesist above is correct and the weaknesses don't show up (rejuvenate eidolon required, synthesist can't always be kept on or is removed or unavailable due to circumstances, no social troubles etc.).
This is primarily due to the number of natural attacks it can get with evolutions. This is difficult to achieve with other single-classed characters, unless you choose a race that offers it.
Just for the exercise I built a mix here that gets as many attacks on that level as the synthesist, more in 2 levels:

But as stated, that's just for illustration purposes :-)

As stated before, I agree with much of your analysis, but note completetly. Particularly for the dwarf items are still an option, and the versatility isn't as great for the synthesist if he needs his spells for his eidolon (healing) etc. - he just does not have that many spells on this level. His summons can't keep up since he has not invested into it (such as the augment summoning feat). Communication we have discussed as well, so though I would not discount them, they are a very strong option.

So the synthesist - again assuming it's built correctly - is a nice package, but in no way overpowered with the shortcomings it has :-)

EDIT: I again may be overlooking something, but how do you get the +8/+8/+8/+8 with power attack? That would mean a +10 without, so taking the stats there and the proposed weapon focus (claw) feat, you would be at +4 BAB +4 STR + 1 WF = +9, leading to a +7 to hit...

Cold Napalm wrote:

So your telling me that a 18-20 str, stronger then Arnold in conan the barbarian human male only weights 175 lbs. I think not. If a player tried to pull that to try and get under the weight limit, I would probably just laugh at him as I told him hell no...but hey you game may vary. Honestly 200 is what I would consider the LOW end what is believable for such a person.

So now you bring in pure houserules to the discussion? Also, you're in a game where people make fire out of bat guano, create alternate dimensions and summon angels - are you going to deny someone wanting to have the physical build (though of course, not AS strong) of Spiderman? Just look at Halil Mutlu in real life, able to lift 352 pounds over his head (thus rocking a Str of 19). He weighs about 120 pounds. Or, looking at 170 pounds (still below average) we have Oleg Perepetchenov who can lift 463 pounds over his head (thus having a Str of 21). And this is in the real world - why can't fantasy heroes be even better?

Quote:

Yeah the weapon and shield is easy to send off on a separate trip...but that is once again in a none threat situation and honestly I don't care how you get across a chasm in those cases.

If you can use it to bypass an encounter or five it's a pretty darn powerful ability.

Quote:

I don't toss out none encounters in hopes that the party members use up resources because that is kind of a dick move honestly. If the chasm is there, there is SOMETHING there.

Stop with this, now. Stop saying that people doing stuff differently from you are acting like dicks or bad DMing and whatever. I can play that game too: Just because your

so-called adventures are a straight line from A to B with four equal-CR'd single encounters that can't be avoided doesn't mean everyone railroads that way.

See? I can do that to. Does throwing out random accusations barely based on the posted information any good? No, it doesn't, so stop it.

Quote:

But hey once again your games may

...

I don't agree with quite a few points from either of you.

To address some points, here are some quick builds for comparison:

Both can use wands rather reliably, and they have funds left for some potions and ordinary gear. Acrobatics are no problem for ordinary situations, and they both got some tricks up their sleeves.
Note that both have been built with 15 point-buy and bought traits with the additional traits feat. They come out much nicer with higher point-buy or the common 2 traits.

These are not damage optimized (or min-maxed) characters, but capable combatants with good survivability. And they could be used for comparisons in our discussion :-)

Sangalor - saves are one good and two bad, just like most classes :-P

Short version: they get too much stuff, are too hard to kill, and unblance things for the rest of the party (and the GMs especially). Thread done.

:-)

Uhm, other classes don't dump their physical stats this way and thus have better saves. And there are more classes with 2 or more good saves.

And "because I say so" does not make it true :-)

I would really like to see a pure synthesist build that lives up to the claims made in this thread. so far none has been presented... :-/

There *aren't* any glaring weaknesses of the Synthesist, we've already covered that. :-)

Uhm, yes there are, and they have been stated repeatedly.

Saves is one example ;-)

And I second Irnk's opinion.

You see, I keep looking at this thread to understand what is supposed to be broken, so I can understand how this could be fixed. But I still haven't seen anything there, so I can't get this answer... :-(

It will work with a Net, or Firearm.

A Firearm with the Scatter property will allow you to effect several opponents.

Net: you are right. I looked up the wrong "net" ;-P

Would there be another bonus of using that conductive property in the beside adding to damage on a successful hit?
The ranged touch attacks cause much more damage per round when you level up...

@Funky Badger:
On a side note, I don't think the weapon focus is legit. The summoner is not proficient with claws, so he would not be able to take the feat.

Unless of course there is a FAQ that I overlooked that states some exceptions to the rule again ;-/

Sir Reginald Dweeb

Human Paladin 2 / Synthesist 3

By day Sir Reginald is a faded fixutre of the cloister, summoning celestial fluffy bunnikins for the attached Home for Abused Wandering Monsters and Petting Zoo, by night he is... ANGEL SUMMONER*

STR 13/19
DEX 7/13
CON 7/13
INT 14
WIS 14
CHR 20

HP 25/40 +21(temp)
AC 8 (when unskinned, unless he's wearing some heavy armour and weilding a sheild, then higher)
AC 17 when fused - 21 with a Mage Armour, 25 with a Sheild spell, 30 when Smiting

Saves:
Fort +7/+10
Ref +4/+7
Will +13

Attack Sequence
Bite +9 d6+6 damage (+12 d6+12 when Power Attacking + Smiting)
2xClaw +10 d4+4 (+13 d4+10)

Feats:
Power Attack
Craft Wand
Weapon Focus (Claws)
Toughness
(Could switch one of these for extra smiting)

Eidolon:
Biped with Improved Natural Armour, Improved Ability (STR) and 2xBite

Lower AC than you could get, but plenty of hitting. No equipment, but I'd go for a Belt of CON first, then an amulet of mighty fists with something funky in it...

*Apologies to Mitchell and Webb

Funky Badger, I think what is irritating here is that you try to show the strength of the synthesist with multiclassed builds - which does not prove anything about the synthesist archetype.

For example, in the above build, the saves of the summoner would absolutely suck without the optimizing paladin dip... :-P

But the Angel Summoner (and BMX Bandit) videos are great, I love them... :-D