Glad you like it :-)
Regarding keeping strength: Consider making your sorc a supporting melee combatant. Take longspear and arcane strike to threaten/flank/hurt with AoOs. If you really want to go for it take power attack and furious focus, so your attack bonus won't suffer. This can give you an extra edge.
I would then definitely swap WIS with CON though - 11 con just begs for a quick death on a d6/low fort save character :-)
Sage is good, you'll cover most knowledge skills. Maybe pick up few more class skills with traits, particularly knowledge so you can reap the benefits of that high intelligence.
As a spontaneous caster metamagic is where one of your strengths, so use it:
Lookup Brewer's guide to the blackbuster wizard. You don't need all the stuff from there, but it gives a lot of good advise.
I would take improved initiative as soon as possible, going first is important. Also take at least spell penetration if not also greater spell penetration to be successful as a blaster.
I would consider taking at least arcane blast so you always have something to fall back on if elemental resistances or spell resistance just stops you in your tracks.
Be sure to take great fortitude or you will die an early death. If you can squeeze it in, toughness might be up your alley. Also, as others have suggested, swap strength with constitution.
What I have described above lets you save on a lot of spells, so you have more left to be versatile. If you want to be really hard to stop, take still and silent spell (you already got eschew materials), so even bound, gagged and without equipment you will be able to do something. In those situations summon monster is very versatile, as is alter self: Need darkvision, swim speed, climb speed, ... ? Just alter yourself into an appropriate race. Also great for infiltration, though you should pick up tongues and comprehend languages just to be sure.
So yes, I think it definitely works, the sage sorcerer is really versatile :-)
By "interdictor" I suppose you mean someone who controls the battlefield and stops activities of opponents.
If you could consider choosing a polearm instead of a chain-flail, I got a few suggestion:
A GM of mine played a dwarven one like that against us. It was really tough, particularly when he was on a vehicle in his stance.
Black Lotus wrote:
Not worth it.
if you want the crossblooded thing consider taking eldritch heritage. You do not need *all* the powers, after all, just some of them may give you the necessary feeling :-) Just costs you a skill focus and 1-4 extra feats.Glad you like the idea of pit-touched.
I'd recommend the pit-touched bloodline. You will become more and more resistant as you level up, and it's based on infernal. So it still fits your theme :-)
I recommend the feats improved initiative, great fortitude, toughness, at least one elemental metamagic feat (to convert spells into useful equivalents), quicken spell and some other metamagic feats. One of the strengths of the spontaneous caster is applying metamagic on the fly. If you go with the bloodline you could focus on the intimidate part of it to make your opponents shaken (or worse with more feats) and thus reduce their saves.
Nope, you misunderstood again :-)
I was aiming at WBL, that you do not adhere to it. The fighter was just an example how you can have infinite of everything with every class because you can just explain everything away.
If this is supposed to be a big kind of "look, wizards are sooo cool (drool)" thread and you don't actually want feedback about thr build, there is nothing intetesting in it for me and I have misunderstood what you want.
We do not ban simulacrums or demiplanes. But all the value that these are worth counts against your WBL, blood money figures into that. If you don't care about that, a rogue, a paladin, a druid, a cavalier or any other class could just as well create a background story that explains why he can have everything you have written plus more.
To the OP: I do not consider your setup consistent with WBL guidelines. The total wealth includes *everything*, including things that you financed through blood money and other activities. Until a short time ago crafted items also counted fully until Paizo staff reversed that ruling in an FAQ.
If you do not care about WBL, then of course you can have "infinite" of everything :-)
Consider a non-wizard equivalent, a 20th level fighter: He could have
Your build and setup would not be allowed in any of our games, I do not consider it "standard" ;-)
Maybe if you made a pure wizard build without all that demiplane/simulacrum stuff...? :-)
Ah, found it, directly in the APG, link here.
Alternate Class Features wrote:
So since both abilities alter it, you cannot take it. No room for interpretation here that I can see :-)
You can always houserule it, of course.
Counterspelling can be very much worth it if you basically have one opposing caster that you need to shut down and you are confident that your team members can handle the rest.The worst thing an opposing caster can do is cast a swift spell afterwards (like a quickened fireball) which you then cannot counter anymore. However, that (usually) limits the spell level someone can throw at you to 5 and it also quickly burns through its higher level spell slots. So this is much less devastating than actually eating 9th level spells...
There are also no defenses against counterspelling I am aware of. The typically called-out for methods here on the forums are to damage the caster so he will fail at his concentration check. However, before you try it, you cannot know for sure what kind of countermeasures (resistances, protection from xxx, spell turning, SR, DR etc.) are in effect or chooses to activate at that instance. So if you want to shut down a single opposing caster, counterspelling is a safe way :-)
What is this wild arcana, though?
Chengar Qordath wrote:
To be fair, "Martials are better than casters when the DM massively stacks the deck against casters" isn't much of an argument.
Well, the physical stats did not favor martials either.The idea of the example was something else:
The DM thought martials don't matter.
Only casters should matter.
Thus the creature was optimized against casters and very difficult for martials.
He learned that martials DO matter, particularly when both work together.
Thus: martial + caster succeed where caster or martial alone fail. Thus the statement casters are always better and martials useless at high levels is wrong.
But let's not get into that territory here. It was addressed as an example to mplindustries about how different settings affect the utility of classes and that there are no universally true statements regarding that.
For this thread it's not very relevant :-)
Again immune is immune.You are simply wrong, you do not know the scenario. You did not read what I wrote about preparation time, availability of miracle and memorized spells.
Just because someone does not act your way does not mean they are doing it wrong.
You overlooked that I stated that the thing was immune to magic, right? ;-)
Furthermore, in this scenario
The opponent was like this
So this was a pretty bad situation. According to the DM we were supposed to discover its weakness somehow, but we never managed. The creature was alien to the world, no knowledge check applied. No time for investigation since characters were dropping from the first round onwards, thus the cleric was mass healing every time. Diplomacy (the cleric was king of that with 50+ bonus) had no chance...
I do not wish to derail this thread further. Please understand
So the situation
They absolutely know what to do, very experienced players. But if you have a practically magic-immune opponent (golemlike) that emits as a free action each round a screech that requires a DC 35 Fort. save or die in a 30 ft radius, then it is quite an acceptable tactic IMO to just keep the martial standing that is beating the crap out of it and keeping distance yourself.
Even the elemental had no chance due to DR and its attack bonus - combat maneuvers and flanking was the only thing it could do, though it was an elder elemental.
Mplindustries, I understand where you are coming from. Pathfinder offers a lot of different playstyles, and that effectively determines what kind of classes are useful and which not.
My experience with fighters <-> mage users at high level:
One of my previous DMs apparently had a similar attitude and experience like you. He came from 2nd edition, and though he had played 3rd quite a while he never lost the idea that spellcasters are always superior.
So when we started an epic game he almost begged me to use tome of battle or some prestige class when I wanted to play a pure 20th+ level TWF fighter. I objected, but built my fighter for a) endurance and b) crits. I had 330hp at level 20 plus 8 DR (some epic feats were allowed).
None of that would have been possible without the support of the rest of the group, of course. Particularly the cleric (healing) and the druid (summoned elementals etc. to grapple and hinder opponents) helped.
After that experience he has become much more open to idea that martials, particularly the boring fighter, can be quite a power house.
I would also love to read a guide written by you, Lormyr. You and Marthkus seem to play games that are quite similar to those I know.
It has been very refreshing to read a thread with "monk" in its title that did not end with just the same statments that monks suck, defenses don't matter, SR is worthless etc. :-)
Just as general advice:
That would be an option for the build above, too, and would significantly up its base damage. We don't use those, though...
The Shaman wrote:
Wait, how do you get arcane strike here - through the light cantrip?
Yes. Generally I don't like that recent ruling by Paizo that SLAs count for these things, but hey, if it does and I can use it to boost my buddies, why not :-P
Well, this character will never see actual gameplay as long as my Zen Archer refuses to die ;-)
As a sample here a replacement character of mine, level 15, WBL level 14. Crafted some magic items himself, thus WBL should be closer to WBL level 15 after all.
Duelleros - Aiding martial 15 (W14 185000)
This one uses armor, so no monk bonuses. Alternative would be to go for bracers; actually the max dex on celestial already limits him.
The figures above are without any abilities on.
When fighting defensively and using crane style attack goes down by 1 but AC increases by 5, plus he always deflects the first attack.
Finally, he can parry attacks, which is also great.
Offensively he can be much improved, but I went for the aid another part and general utility here :-)
Coinshot Colton wrote:
That is not what I said. You get BOOSTED by all 3. Read the duelist guide,l and the class, it is one of the few classes that get scaling extra bonuses to damage, thus additional damage boosts besides strength.You are actually less mad than a fighter, but can still reach higher ACs.
The abilities also fit the stereotypical image of samurai quite well.
Consider duelists, best mixed with samurai or fighter and monk. You easily get insanely high AC, great DPR and have lots of skills due to high int. Int, wis and dex all increase your AC, so you also benefit from all stat enhancers.
Nothing in the spell states or suggests you change squares. You basically still occupy the same square as before and choose one square that is your "true" position.
Well at the very least the opposite is not true either ;-)
This is the way I interpret it.
I disagree. There is no hint at you being limited to using the same weapon. It's rather clear that you are allowed to use seperate weapons because you have to make an attack roll against each opponents.The general rule is that you can attack with any of your wielded weapons for each attack you have as you like. You do not need TWF or such for that.
I don't know the effects for Jotungrip, but wrt. whirlwind attack you can do this various weapons IMO :-)
Actually I think it's quite cool and am not worried about it. Only some characters will be ready to invest into a high enough dex plus two or three feats plus money plus blocking the hand slot with items.
It's quite cinematic and appropriate when weaker PCs can stand against the assault of strong, mostly at least large, opponents. It furthers cooperation.
I still find it strange that you do not need to be adjacent to the enemy as well - it's a balancer...
Indirectly it increases the value of maneuvers and spells.
First, two suggestions: If you have not already considered it, look atA) sorcerer, especially sage. It can do all the things spontaneously, and there are lots of customizations. With the sage bloodline you can even keep the Int based casting, have lots of skills etc.
B) witch, fantastic for debuffing and also has the summon monster spells.
Nevertheless, enervation does not really profit from high caster level except for spell resistance checks, so I would not go the specialization route.
Evervation looks good and has its advantages. However, its disadvantages that I listed would never make me consider it the only spell to build around to take out foes. Maybe I would consider making it *one* of the preferred spells - which is what I would suggest. IMO going the preferred spell route is only really worth it if you take more than one spell, i.e. take the feat several times. Then it starts paying off. For example, you might want to take enervation, fireball and dispel magic as preferred spells. If you want you can add magic missile and dimension door. Now you got a spell for groups (fireball), one for single targets (enervation), counter to spells (dispel magic), maybe a universal hit-spell (magic missile) and one to get out of bad situations (dimension door). Depending on your style you might want to get vanish instead - quickened, particularly with spell perfection, it's cheap, so you could use quickened vanish plus draw a rod plus cast a spell or start summoning. True strike is always top contender, but it's not good to make your build depend on it IMO.
Crafting rods is not so great unless you heavily depend on having many different types of rods available and you are unsure if you can purchase it. I would always rather recommend going for craft wondrous items, it's simply the best crafting feat.
Generally I think that specializing in a school is only worth it under specific circumstances. If you look at the amulet of magecraft, it's hard not being a universalist wizard: You can convert the spells of one school (chosen daily!) into any of other those spells if you make it your bonded item. So you could just prepare any number of spells of e.g. conjuration and spontaneously convert *any* of those spells into *any other* conjuration spell of that level - without any feats. This is really cool. Add in the ability of universalist to spontaneously apply metamagic feats, and you have a pretty powerful caster.
Something that does not make much sense IMO is to add spell penetration line if you want to be a "god" wizard focusing on conjuration. Conjuration has the most spells that do not have spell resistance, so for them it's mostly a waste. I realize you take it for those other spells (evocation + enervation), but really consider if this is worth burning two feat slots. Your summons won't be aided by this, and many of those control-type of spells do not really have spell resistance.
Also, if you want to go the summoning route, look at the other feats that are available to improve your summoning power further. So consider superior summoning there.
With respect to a spell to specialize in, I would suggest looking at frigid touch. There is *no save*, it does 4d6 cold damage (easily convertible with metamagic), and it staggers (!) for either 1 round or 1 *minute*. Couple this with reach spell, and you're really mean.
If you dump the augment summoning, you can squeeze in a lot more preferred spells, making it more flexible.
If you go for the amulet of magecraft, you can completely eschew the preferred spell route, simply memorizing enough evocation spells for the day would suffice, plus some generous stocks of pearl of power 2nd level ;-)
Your tactic would be to always prepare / convert frigid touch with reach spell, thus making it a ranged touch attack. You can use it quickened or non-quickened, change the elemental type with rods or feats. Have a couple of blasts prepared and you're good.
In case you can spare the feats consider arcane blast. It's subpar in terms of damage, but it's supernatural and allows you to attack golems and similar otherwise immune creatures - and no spell turning, counterspell etc. works on it.
OK so much for now. I hope this helps :-)
I know the wording is ambigous, but the "ability to cast" means to me- when it comes from wizard -> you have to pay 2 slots
- when it comes from another class, e.g. cleric -> you only pay 1 slot
And yes, that means that you can sacrficice a non-wizard spell to cast that spell from your list. Makes dipping into other classes or MT more worthwhile. In the end your DM will have to decide.
I just suggested to dodge the whole issue by taking arcane study at 9th (I believe) level to make it a non-opposition school.
By shooting into melee I meant the -4 you always have when some of your party are engaged in melee with another party. This comes in addition to cover. You will face that situation a lot, so depending on true strike is quite costly IMO.
Starting from a certain level onward you almost always have undead. Unlike fireball and other pure damage spells where you can alter the energies with simple lesser rods of metamagic or a feat or a class ability, enervation will simply be completely useless.
Spell turning, rings of counterspell etc. do not stop non-targeted spells, so there is a clear advantage for fireball and similar spells.
And from a certain level onward your DM would be pulling punches if your opponents DIDN'T do research and prepare counters to your standard tactics.
I'll try to give some more suggestions later, can't at the moment :-)
You are right about the threatened area. Still does not change that you do not need to be adjacent to deliver touch spells :-)I think lunge also is possible at higher levels to extend further, though I didn't check the text.
I'd consider getting long limbs through eldritch heritage :-)
That's not much information :-)
If you go for intimidate, I strongly recommend going for shatter defenses. Add enforcer, sap master and skill focus intimidate - and you will leave your foes with so many penalties and make you able to sneak attack that you will be very dangerous :-)
Dirge bard fits well, too. Unlike all other necromancers, which are ALWAYS evil or "black" by definition in D&D, they get to create skeletons that are explicitely called out not to be evil.
You would need two slots to cast the spell, though you could still do it spontaneously. That is my opinion on the rules :-)
Finally I would not specialize in enervation. You need precise shot to shoot into melee effectively, undead will love you for it, spell turning, spell immunity, cocealment, high AC, death ward etc. will make it useless fast and you will wish not to have spent many ressources on it.
Just as a suggestion for a slightly different approach to a wizard/paladin combination: Have you considered going pure paladin and getting very few impressive-looking spells such as blasts?
Pure Casterdin Paladin
The following spell-like functions of the rod can each be used once per day.
The following weapon functions of the rod have no limit on the number of times they can be employed.
The following other functions of the rod also have no limit on the number of times they can be employed.
This build relies on casting fireball and other spells, refreshing those spells with pearls of power, and providing flexibility and variety for combat with his rod of wonder.
Otherwise there have been many good suggestions. Note that there are good non-somatic arcane spells at every spell level, so even without still spell or arcane armor training you will have something to cast.
No, you're not getting the point as well. We can throw that back and forth, it stays the same.
SR: You did not read the spell and not the thread. What you write simply is not correct. Again, and again, and again: READ THE SPELL. It has specific text regarding that situation. There wouldn't be FAQ threads if it was that easy.
Also the monk helps a lot. I explained what he can do. If you don't value it high enough, fine, that's your right. But I will keep my opinion there that he has his options and he does perform them well.
And if you consider stunning fist to be not relevant - well, let's hope your DM never applies one to your character and lets someone else coup de grace / sneak attack /whatever you ;-)
Finally, the argument that when a monk is doing flanking he is doing nothing specific because a wizard could do the same: That's simply wrong. Yes, a wizard can flank. At the same time he won't limit others', particularly many opponents', options nearly as much as the monk. The monk at least is a threat in terms of melee, a wizard isn't. Also, any wizard that makes it his business to go in melee to flank is not going to live very long while a monk will. Defenses, again.
Now this is devolving into a "monk sucks, I tell you so" thread. You can make a seperate one for that if you like, I am not interested in always reading the same arguments again and again. You and others are not in any way more right than before, and I don't rate your arguments the way you do.
So let's get back to the topic - unless that is already settled? :-)
You seem to have a very fixed image of what the monk is supposed to be like and in what way a monk "contributes to a party". What you can't seem to accept is that the monk can be fine and adequate just the way he is - as another poster pointed out it is hard to look at all your posts and find love for the monk in it, at least as long as it does not fit your picture of the unarmed improved fighter. You may mean it, but it comes across differently.
I also cannot share your views on immunities. Immunities are *great*. Your argument that the other classes "will save anyway" is a strawman. Certainly they will save many times - but they will fail. For example, in a poison intensive adventure path such as serpent skull immunity to poison is invaluable. Immunity is completely different from having good saves.
Regarding the spell resistance, you apparently neither read the thread I linked to nor what I wrote. You have your own view on how SR works, that's fine. To me it's perfectly clear it works differently in the case of cure spells. And apparently that view is shared by quite a few people, hence the FAQ thread.
Finally you asked what the point of flurry of blows is. I believe it is a creative way of giving the monk a damage boost while at the same time enabling him to a) represent the typical image of a lightning fast striking martial artist while b) allowing him to apply status effects. And it performs quite well there. And no, again and again, the monk *does* hit reliably. He just won't hit against every opponent with all of his attacks. But many attacks are performed at very high attack bonuses, the rest may hit or may not hit - it does not matter. In that sense he performs well enough and has the chance to perform even better with good rolls on later attacks. Feats like hammer the gap (non-CRB, thus not relevant here) can really improve those hits further in ways they don't for non-flurries.
It's fine for you to have your view on the monk, and the way you present it is not wrong. It's just that what I expect of the monk and what I consider to be important is something completely different, and there the monk does really well - much better than a barbarian, a fighter, a paladin, a ranger or another martial class. :-)