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I've a Chaokineticist in a home game I'm considering porting to PFS who is very much patterned off of a sith. Kinetic Blade/Whip is my lightsaber. He tends to tromp around in a black shroud and I can't wait for him to reach Suffocate for force choke fun.
Probably should've multi element specced into Air for electricity blasts for force lightning too... hmmm... maybe I'll do that when I get around to porting him over.
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)
The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
This is what we call a self correcting problem.
Emotional Aura: single use boon, grants one effect of a number ranging from spell effects to skill bonuses to a possible +2 to save vs a divine spell you cast. Spell effects include Sanctuary and Rage. There are six possible auras to select from.
The dex to hit would be nice, but they don't get it to damage do they? (not that familiar with kineticists) Gunslingers effectively get a better bonus to hit from targeting touch AC.
Dex for hit, Con or 1/2 Con for damage. The usual wisdom is that Kineticists need every inch of to hit they can leverage, which a tiny +Dex Wild Shape would be quite beneficial for.
As for gathering and aiming, songbird has legs or wings, dealer's choice, of prehensile appendages in theory. Shouldn't be a problem.
I should snag one of these rings for my home game kineticist...
Around these parts, that build uses Burning Hands instead for 5d4+5 fire damage. Actually, they generally go Cross Blooded adding in Draconic and sling 5d4+10 instead. Don't remember quite what they do to manage the lost caster level from tattooed sorcerer (which IIRC doesn't stack properly with Cross Blooded) 5 flamethrower shots a day that make entire formations just disappear, save or not, plus Disrupt Undead and Acid Splash as cantrips for 'easy' fights.
I've toyed with a Snowball caster doing similar, but the -8 to hit (cover+melee) makes it very difficult to leverage properly.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
Are people just playing assuming it starts full?
Yes. Or, more accurately: we assume the Kineticist fills it before he goes to sleep the night before, since it's exceptionally rare that a Kineticist ends a day burned out and thus can usually afford the 1-2 burn to fill said buffer.
Frankly, it isn't really that unreasonable an assumption.
I was also pretty bummed when I saw the monster tactician was banned. It seemed like a really fun design. If it was banned due to the expanded summon list, it wouldn't be hard to add a clause in the AR that said they simply don't gain that benefit from the class ability.
Extended range becomes desirable when you get empower metakinesis. When that happens, you suddenly no longer want to move (so as to gather power), making 120 feet of range a godsend.
Take Precise Shot at 3, leave weapon finesse til level 5 or 7.
You have four stats of varying usefulness consider dumping Cha and taking penalties in two of the other three and get that Dex to 18. Hitting is the single largest consideration for a kineticist
Play all of Thornkeep at half speed, matching each level of it with a level of ES you can switch to slow speed to match.
But I suggest not doing that and instead just going straight through ES. Keep the Thornkeep chronicles for characters who are going to see more of the world than green hallway after green hallway.
Accomplished Sneak Attacker would be the name of that feat.
heh. My ninja edit appears to not have been quite fast enough. Yes, Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Excellent feat for meeting SA prerequisites.
It is possible to hit 2d6 SA off of only one level of a rogue class at the cost of a feat. Accomplished Sneak Attacker, I think the feat is called, from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox. This means the absolute earliest entry is Rog 1 Wiz 3. Feel free to substitute any SA granting class for Rog. The usual conundrum is Snakebite Striker Brawler for +1 BAB or Unchained Rogue for best sneak attack (concealment doesn't kill your SA) and free weapon finesse.
Fortuitous basically gives you an "iterative" on your AoO; a second attack at -5.
Oooh. Two weapon combat trick/fighter archetype with a pair of fortuitous weapons, possibly with a level of swashbuckler to Opportune Parry and Riposte. You attack me, I parry and swing back four times.
So it is. I stopped reading after the first sentence and didn't see the refractory clause in the next sentence.
Is Solo Maneuvers a prerequisite for something? Cause it's pretty bad if not in that it forces you to into a dangerous tactical situation for minuscule gain. That it is also blocking a strictly better archetype for you is particularly damning as well.
Is it not fairly well established that, barring crazy optimization in a single maneuver bonus, focusing on combat maneuvers is asking for trouble later on? Don't get me wrong, a well timed maneuver has been clutch a few times in my fairly short PFS career, but I see CMD scale so quickly compared to CMB as you level and that your chosen maneuver may only be useable half of the time give or take? You're investing a lot in something with a high rate of failure and a low rate of applicability.
Reconsider Makeshift Scrapper. It sidesteps the refine weapon issue and fits pretty well into your build barring its clashing with Swashbuckler.
But then it still counts as improvised, so it's 3 below Rough and Ready.
Except Catch Off Guard, gained by the Humble Beginnings trait, removes that penalty, at least for the frying pan, and thus surprise weapon is better. For other kitchen implements, I recommend just taking the feat instead of humble beginnings, but if you want to specialize in the pan the trait is ok.
There's a rogue archetype (makeshift scrapper) in one of the soft cover splats, melee tactics toolbox maybe? It lets you make your skillet magic for when you need it for penning DR/hitting incorporeal without having to argue the grey area of improvised weapons in general. Might be worth looking at. I know you're set up as a slayer, but the archetype patches the incorporeal targets issue very neatly.
Have you seen that beast?! She's as like to scar me as to cuddle me! Don't get me wrong, I love her, but trust? Not if I want to escape with my skin intact!
And don't get me started about the kitten! *rimshot*
I don't consider her sitting in on two games held in our own home with a pregen to make table/not be bored contribution to PFS in general. I mean, she's got a number, and she's earned three chronicles, but the interest just isn't there, which is totally fine.
And for the record, I'm considered "soft" as a GM, because I will usually rule in the players' favor and let them get away with borderline stuff, especially when it's life or death. When I roll out in the open, and somebody dies, everyone knows I was completely fair about it. But I've also only killed 2 PCs in 70ish sessions of GMing PFS.
Fascinating... I have the opposite reputation. Characters die in my games fairly regularly, despite my running things as fair as I can figure. I don't unilaterally rule on the side of the players, but I do try to make rulings fairly and consistently. I've nearly TPKed a table or two, and have permadeaded a low level character or five (Thornkeep and Emerald Spire are harsh mistresses) in addition to a swath of 'temporary' kills. It's significant enough a trend that I've taken to warning players that my tables can be bloody as part of my opening spiel, which doesn't always help...
"Failure is always an option."
Given that, I have a hard time fudging things one way or the other. I'm not going to force failure on the players by way of fudging, it's dishonest and unnecessary. I'm also not going to mitigate players' failure because if I do, there's not much point in playing in the first place. If it's guaranteed that the players are going to win, one might as well just leave the dice at home and narrate the scenario for them.
There is an exception to this, which is -1's. If a player shows up with their -1 with only a handful of chronicles, I'm probably going to take poor tactical decisions instead of reasonable or strong ones. The dice will still end up the way they land, but maybe the enemies don't take flanks or focus fire or use their special things. Cause you just shouldn't frag new players' characters. But once they've hit six chronicle sheets, I present them with the same challenge I'd present anyone: those contained in the scenario, run to the best of my ability. If they can't overcome those challenges, they don't earn the rewards offered for so doing.
Yes, it's important to tell a story. But the heroes don't always win in stories, and there's an entire genre where the hero always dies in the end. What story are we putting together over the course of a PFS session? That's up to the dice and the players, otherwise they aren't playing a game, they're listening to a guy tell a story.
Do I trust the other people at my table? To a degree, I have to. But there's only one person I trust implicitly and absolutely and she doesn't play PFS.
Ryan Freire wrote:
They're *usually* smart enough to pack a pot or two of featherstep. Usually...
But yes. "Fun."
I, on the other hand, have personally witnessed a 20 foot land speed character utterly fail to reach combat on numerous occasions, including one instance where a gnoll with a short bow was able to kite him for four turns and would've continued had I not intervened with my long bow.
I will never play a 20 speed character.
Switch to Tiny Hut. It's only foiled by the enemy getting too close, you relocating, or true seeing.
Otherwise, get yourself some hide in plain sight, possibly by way of Hellcat Stealth.
Or blind enemies with Glitterdust instead of using illusions to hide. If they're high will save characters, use Burst of Radiance instead.
Oh, and "RAW" people: Players who know the intent behind a game mechanic but abuse it anyways because of an overly literal parsing of the text. This category I've encountered less in person and more online, but I know of one repeat offender in my local area, too.
Is it me? It's me isn't it? It's probably me...
Or is it? Maybe it's [redacted] or [redacted]... Hmmm...
Decent options for meta magic include:
Note: any meta magic other than Quicken will increase your spell's casting time because you are a spontaneous spell caster. There's ways to mitigate this to a degree, the most efficient being the Arcane bloodline (which I understand is not an option but is included here for completeness) and spontaneous metafocus (a feat) if you focus on boosting a single spell with meta magic. It can be worthwhile to take the full round cast on something like a persistent glitterdust, but it is a drawback for being able to apply meta magic to your spells "on the fly".
Handy example: normally Glitterdust is a standard action cast, 2nd level spell. Our plucky 14th level sorceress decides to blind some bad guys, and reaches for Glitterdust, but knows the bad guys are packing some decent Will saves. Still, she really needs those guys blind, so she opts to slam out a persistent Glitterdust as a full round action consuming a 4th level spell slot. The DC is calculated as the base spell, at spell level 2, for a total of 12+stat+relevant esoteric mods, with the caveat that those affected need to roll twice and select the lower die.
Michael Hallet wrote:
A clever or savvy player might GM their special boon PC through level 1 and possibly 2 so as to amass enough resources to bounce back if the worst happens. Or they might decide the risk is worth the extra games played as that race.
Unrelated from upthread: I knew it was me! My legend continues...
Kitty In A Fishbowl wrote:
At higher levels, not having Quicken Spell really shoots your action economy in the foot. Given that, let's see if we can't just do a quickened metamagic explanation.
Quicken Spell is a +4 spell slot adjustment. Remember this, it's important.
You're a level 14 sorceress. Go you. You've got access to spells of up to 7th level. Random encounter pops up and it's your turn. You toss out a cone of cold, cause blasting is your thing. Simple enough, you scratch off a spell slot of the appropriate level, apply your spell effect, roll some dice and drat if the thing is still standing. You could deal with it next round or hope the party drops it before it eats your face, but you recall you picked up Quicken Spell because we recommended it. You've got fireball as a 3rd level spell known and still have 7th level spell slots, so you scratch a 7th level slot and drop a quickened fireball. 10d6, right in the monster's face, no waiting, but the save dc is still calculated as the base spell level, or 13+stat+esoteric mods.
Next fight, again you cone of Cold but it's still standing and this time it's fire immune. You have mirror image as a known 2nd level spell, and dimension door as a known 4th level. We can't quicken the dimension door because it would take an 8th level spell slot, so instead we go with the quickened mirror image, scratching a 6th level spell slot
Jared Thaler wrote:
We do have one GM out here whose dice just hate the party. I have watched him roll 3 20s in the first round of the first combat with x4 weapons. At some point, there is just nothing you can do.
Is it me? It's me isn't it? It's probably me... I think I remember the exact occasion this one happened.
I've been the GM for a couple TPFs. Party that got half gold, 0 PA, and a negative boon due to a couple decisions that came back to haunt them... different party that got taken apart (and I do mean apart) by flying breath weapon fiends because only one of them had picked up a back up bow other than the kineticist... TPK to a pair of clockwork soldiers in the 6-7 tier because my dice were hot and the bloatmage was the first one to die due to a crit...
Bad saves will mess you up pretty good, but having a decent band-aid (cleric/oracle) in your back pocket can generally set you right. Bad party comp or bad decisions will utterly wreck you. Then there's the random times where the dice just plain aren't your friend, but thankfully that's pretty rare.
I've personally only ever had 3 PC deaths and they got better each time. Once to a creature that should not have been in that module, once to a poor spell selection by the party caster that chained multiple fights that we miraculously defeated (though not without my druid getting thumped by a frost giant), and once recently to an out of the blue prismatic spray that nuked half the party and killed my plucky magus and her pet mongoose. Poor mongoose...
*begins to type about 8k gold differential, why a difference in primary stat should exist between the fighter and kineticist(because kineticists will generally have more Con than Fighters have Str due to not spending on weapon and due to the Elemental Overflow mechanic), alternate options for the kineticist to explore that the Fighter simply doesn't have some of which improve damage, then stops.*
Listen, we can all go back and forth, escalating the kineticist and fighter in attempts at each proving our position, or we can just accept that the two are in the same ballpark depending on the level of optimization used. One path ends up with us spending hours arguing over stupid minutiae on an internet message board, the other involves us going and doing something fun or productive. I know which I'm choosing.
A variance of 18 to 28 damage with multiple hits is more desirable than a variance of 6 to 26 on one.
While true, I think we can eke a bit more out of the kineticist.
We've got a 4d6+8 physical blast, so we're 7th level with 18 Con. That means we have Elemental Overflow +2, so at the cost of 21 points (3 burn) of nonhealable nonlethal damage (I like to think of it as my Feign Death zone), we get 4 more damage and a +2 size bonus boost to our Con and Dex. Now we're at 4d6+13, which is nifty. We could Maximize, but that just raises our floor and average without meaningfully affecting our ceiling, let's instead choose to Empower.
4d6+13 Empowered works out to 25 minimum, 55 maximum, with an average of 40.
So our comparative delta minimum is 9 points, our delta average is 6, and our delta maximum is 1, without taking into account to hit values.
That's actually fairly competitive, I think.
Compared to say, the Kineticist with 18 CON doing a 4d6+8 physical blast or a 4d6+2 energy blast. If your cold ray, for example, hits maximized, you are doing 18 damage.
4d6+2 maximized = 26, not 18?
I mean, I generally agree with your stance (I find dpr to be reliant on the level breaks involved, with the note that equipment greatly favors the fighty type over the kineticist as there just simply isn't much available to the kineticist), but your math was a touch off there.
Also: Chainsaws are awesome and should be encouraged at every table. I really want to have a summoning focused character summon up something like a Hound Archon and hand a chainsaw with relevant proficiency granting ioun stone off to it with the instruction "Evil doers are over there, go have fun with it."
This message sponsored by the Chainsaws for Hound Archons Committee of 2016.
Alignment thread! Everybody drink?
Yknow, I was just thinking I'd like to shore up that Will save...
But I still need Clustered Shots. Sigh...
Jared Thaler wrote:
I was brewing up a fighter that used a gun, and man, it is really hard to justify not taking that gunslinger level.
Of course, that's now expanded into a multiclass monstrosity, combining gunslinger, weapon master fighter, unchained monk, urban bloodrager, and possibly some other class(es) after that... don't look at me like that, I needed the bonus feats!
How else am I to combine Crane Style and guns? (Rapid Reload, Point Blank, Precise, Rapid, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Mobility, Deft Shootist, Improved Unarmed, Crane Style... by level 7.) For my next trick: fitting in Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes.
Secret Wizard: If you can provide a citation for your assertion, I'd be much obliged. It is true that you need a hand free for Crane Wing, but the basic style and Riposte should function regardless of handedness, reducing the penalty for fighting defensively to -1 and granting an extra +1 dodge when so doing. Crane Style, coupled with 3 ranks in Acrobatics, grants a +4 dodge bonus to AC completely separate from Crane Wing's bonus, the latter of which works all wonky anyway.
But then, I don't agree that gathering power results in your hand becoming occupied until the beginning of your next turn unless you're taking the 1 full round gather, which... well... I don't really recommend in general. Something like move to gather, standard to blast defensively should function just fine, and would even do so if you don a (magic) buckler.
Secret Wizard wrote:
Their design has flaws but the class works well.
I'm certainly getting some solid use out of a lowish level Chaokineticist. My party comp contains a 2hander warpriest and a dualwield slayer, so my 3d6+9 empowered physical shots are pretty noteworthy. I'm also the swarm killer for the group, since our arcane is a bard. We're 15 pt buy mostly core races, so I'm not really dabbling in the darkness stuff the element gives, but the rest of my kit seems to be functioning well enough.
I'm thinking about putting together a Crane Style using Kineticist, possibly Earth or Water or Aether for added defensiveness. I reckon taking only a -2 or -1 (depending on how far into Crane Style we go) to hit for a +4 boost to AC and CMD is a desirable thing...
Kineticist are basically fullcasters under a different system of magic. They can do some very strong things and do it at will as a way to compensate for a lack of higher level spells.
I quite disagree. The thing that makes full casters what they are is the quadratically expanding options as they level up. Kineticists expand in options fairly linearly, not unlike a fighter selecting feats.
A kineticist levels and gains 1 talent. A full caster levels and gains 2+spells/spell slots
Most broken classes are Core.
A real monster summoner would have dropped multiple SLA toting outsiders in that fight and might have a planar ally hanging around. A single basic elemental in exchange for incurable nonlethal dmg is... Well...
This... May in fact be half of how my Emerald Spire static operates.The other half is Outflank shenanigans with a support swashbuckler.
Turns out, when you ask whether things in the dungeon blend, the answer is often "yes."
Outflank+Paired Opportunists+Butterfly Stinging+Disposable Weapon.
It's pretty normal for us to run out of our opportunity attacks even with half our hitters having 8+ of them. Party comp is cleric, warpriest, magus, swashbuckler, and wizard.
Lord Fyre wrote:
/passes Will save vs alignment debate
... My desire to play a kobold in PFS from 1-20 cannot be overstated. I would sideline every character I currently have if it meant getting to play one of the squeaky buggers for more than just what True Dragons of Absalom allows for.
I won't ask for them to be generally released akin to how Nagaji/Kitsune/Wayang/Tengu were, but something like a GM boon batch or two, something I can obtain for less than ludicrous amounts of money for charity or the sum total of my boons + a lung... Man... That'd make for a swell 2016-2018.