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530 posts. Alias of Ryzouken.


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Socalwarhammer wrote:
Maybe it is time for this thread to be put to bed.

Some would argue the time for that was back on page 1...


The buffer also allows you to accept burn in excess of the cap on burn one can accept in a single turn.

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ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

Name three adventures from which you can receive a non-failing Chronicle sheet without killing something. Places where you can capture it instead do not actually count unless you can capture all of them without it being unspeakably hard or time consuming compared to just killing them.

I do genuinely want to know, as I actually prefer roleplaying have a type games, but the way organized play is structured makes them extremely difficult.

Three Scenarios in which it is possible to earn full rewards without combat:
Library of the Lion, The Disappeared, and, if you're clever, the Technic Siege can all be done with zero combats taking place, IIRC. There are more, but those three are ones I have experienced.

Physical blasters tend to pick up Deadly Aim too, since with empower mixed in it's fairly analogous to 2 handed Power Attack (-1atk/+3dmg)

Of course, a physical blader/whipper would grab Power Attack or (more likely) Piranha Strike for the same idea in melee, netting even more raw damage due to iteratives. Whether the acc loss translates into these feats resulting in less dpr instead of more is a question for people who want to bother crunching the numbers. I just know those feats are nice for raising the damage floor and ceiling a little bit more.


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That content would be nice to see.
You will not see many posts in agreement with my own due to this forum's culture of rabid anti optimization. See also the first five replies in this thread, where one was moderate, one a troll, and the other three decidedly anti optimization.

My recommendation is to give it a spin, see what kind of viewership you end up with. If you build it, they will come. If you talk about building it, you'll be shouted down by everyone who feels threatened because you aren't playing a fighter with 20 int.


Find a new group

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DM Beckett wrote:
Actually, if it's the scenario I'm thinking about, you know the one that's specifically designed for brand new players and explicitly has a lot of NPCs sitting there to be on hand to help the Players along with questions and lore like this, I'm tempted to say this is a case of worst DM. :P

Yup, it's that scenario. The only one I've run across with that particular item in it. And yeah, it's a 1-2 scenario, so not impossible for a character to not know about the item and not have a wayfinder in the group.


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Really wish you'd stayed with the standard color scheme. Makes it harder for readers to use your guide if their brain is used to purple=best when your purple=meh.


Morganstern wrote:
Kensai aren't proficient with armor, so armor enchantments are harder to get.

Haramaki. No ACP, no ASF. Doesn't turn off your class features. Lets you get armor enchants.

Alternately: Silken Ceremonial Armor is the same.

Alternately alternately: Bracers of Armor.

Armor enchants are in no way difficult to get, regardless of your proficiencies. More challenging is shield enchants, since even the lowly buckler disables your canny defense.


An Ifrit Overpowering Soul might actually not be terrible as a pyrokineticist (or any, but pyro for flavor)


Bloodrealm wrote:
Well, like I mentioned before (but got shot down by a DPR Olympian), Esoteric Advantage would help. It's a knowledge check and a move action to effectively reduce any one of a single target's defenses against you with unlimited use per day.

Seriously?

Let me try this again, at the risk of being called names yet again.
You have one move action and one standard action. Your standard is going to using your blast, that leaves one move action.
Your choices are:
A) Reduce their resistance/DR by 2 if you made a check.
B) Gather Power
Option A is straightforward. You trade your move to reduce their resistance by 2 with a check.
Option B reduces your burn by 1 (or 2, at or after level 11.) This lets you do all sorts of fun and crazy things, like lob an empowered blast, lob a composite blast, or other esoteric options based on your talent selection. Most of these result in more than 2 points of damage.
Because Option B is categorically superior to Option A, there is never a point in which using Option A is preferable.

I'd also like to challenge the myth that Kineticists suck at doing single target damage, but I already have quite a few times. Kineticists, built properly, can do similar damage to blaster casters depending on the level break used. See the discussion between Casual Viking and myself regarding level 6-7 Scorching Ray Sorcerers and generic physical blast Kineticists.
Unfortunately, I get the feeling this myth has become ingrained in the board, so I could spend the rest of my pathfinder career refuting it. Or I could just not bother...

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Nefreet wrote:
Running scenarios cold is just more hard core.

I run all my scenarios cold

This was not a joke, even when I read through them in advance I can't remember what I read the next day.


Bloodrealm wrote:
I bet this would probably be a good feat for a Kineticist to help get around a lot of what might hold them up, though I'm not sure how widely allowed it would be.

Not really.

It's two points of damage for a move action. Terrible exchange. Particularly since the kineticist has Gather Power, which is a move action and effectually lets you empower without burn, resulting in far more than 2 points of damage.

I mean, you could take it, but you'd get better mileage out of Skill Focus: Craft(basketweaving)

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FLite wrote:

There are also some scenarios that have some very significant boons (As in several thousand gp equivalent that are beneficial to *any* character.)

Such a database would let people stack all those onto a single character.

Which is already possible. Of course, we won't go into how those scenarios may be more dangerous than others or how putting all your eggs in one basket makes for a sour experience when said basket eats an unrecoverable character death or simply retires.

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Lab_Rat wrote:
It comes down to this: knowing the items on a chronicle ahead of time tells you a vast amount of information about what is in the scenario. Scrolls of X tell you that you will face a spellcaster with an ability to cast said scroll. A potion of invisibility tells you that an enemy may be invisible and you should get something to counter it. A rapier of ghost touch tells you that you will face some form of dex based fighting class that may be crit fishing and that the ability to attack incorporeal creatures may be important. I could go on and on and on. The point is, items on the chronicle tell you WAY WAY WAY more about the encounters in the scenario than any player needs to know.

Not necessarily. There's plenty of scenarios where those things show up in random loot caches or are given to you by the VC or other NPC at the start, not on actual enemies. And anyway, you should be preparing to face those enemies in general. I don't generally play characters in PFS that can't solve for invis past level 3 or solve for fly past level 5, for instance.

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Acedio wrote:
Feel free to scenario farm then, I guess?

So if you're in a small playgroup who doesn't have the playerbase to go through a scenario more than once, you're just screwed?

Or, we could solve the actual issue of information restriction via a crowdsourced databank of spoiler free chronicle content made available openly and stop demonizing people for wanting to make informed decisions on how they spend their time.

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Acedio wrote:
Except some chronicles have boons on them that are awarded based on decisions made in the scenario. Such information is a spoiler (ranging from minor to major of course). That seems to me like it would not "preserve much of the scenario's mystery."

You misunderstand.

The proposed database would include the effects of the boon, but not how to achieve it.
For example, Confirmation, a scenario pretty much everyone should be conversant with, would have the following data:
Spoiler:
Boon: cheap wayfinder enhancements, cheap wayfinder
Boon: Single use augury effect for success conditions
Boon: +1 on knowledge checks while in Grand Lodge
Gear: <list of available items>
Gp: <gp by tier>

No data on how to obtain the boons, or loot, just that the stuff is achievable in the scenario. If you fail to get what you wanted, you screwed up. Contrast to how it is now, where you show up to a scenario and its a crap shoot whether the stuff on the chronicle is even desirable for the character you played.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Please move the chronicle fishing discussion, to the chronicle fishing thread.

I already provided a link, so you know where to go.

The guy was asking about chronicle fishing (for a ghost touch weapon). So I'm not sure why that discussion isn't appropriate for this thread.

If you are offended by the suggestion that one discuss a topic in a thread specific to said topic, I am sorry.

The suggestion didn't offend me, but your comma splices did!

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Acedio wrote:

Searching for a chronicle sheet you don't have requires that you read scenarios before you have played them. Reading a scenario in advance is strongly discouraged unless you are going to be running it in the near future. This is because there are players that have trouble managing the advance knowledge they obtain from reading a scenario and wind up spoiling or metagaming (intentionally or otherwise).

Not terribly difficult.

If you want to do it and not impact anybody, be discrete and non-disruptive about it. People won't smile at that practice, though.

Here's the thing: Currently, one needs the scenario in hand to access the chronicle. If, however, chronicle perusal were less demonized, it would be feasible to create a database with chronicle rewards and make it available. Then those who want information on chronicle contents would have a location to look at rewards without accessing the entire scenario.

Not that you actually need to read the entire scenario to get at the chronicle. Those are commonly kept at the end of the document, thus opening the .pdf and skipping to the last page without reading the 20-30 pages between is entirely possible, preserving much of the scenario's mystery.

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Because information from it is used in scenarios, reading the Core Rulebook is cheating.


Welcome to Book X of <insert AP name here>! Now you get to do your second multiple story dungeon crawl! The first one was back in book 2, now it's book X and you're Y level, so you'll be facing five full sprawling dungeon levels with room after room of enemies! Oh, and three traps. But tons and tons of stuff that's utterly uninterested in talking to you beyond feints and taunts. Roll for your first initiative of the night, but keep that die handy, since we'll be rolling new inits in every room and hallway!

The above is not hyperbole, by and large. There is seriously a book in one of the APs that opens on a five floor dungeon complex. There's a fight in nearly every room with creatures that do not care who you are or what you want, they just want your stuff so they might escape their prison. That or they are under orders to kill interlopers.

Longetivity matters, on occasion.

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Fromper wrote:

Looking up details of any adventure in advance of playing it is cheating. That obviously includes what types of monsters you'll face, key plot points, how to solve any puzzles, etc. But it also includes looking at the chronicle sheet.

According to which specific enumerated rule?

To be clear, my position on all this is easily summed up thusly: I'm in favor of fun. It's not fun to look at a chronicle sheet and see what's basically a blank sheet save for 1 xp, 2 pa, and x gold. It's also not fun to have stuff spoiled for you by inconsiderate players, but this is easily policed by simple social contract. If someone spoils adventure stuff, tell them to knock it off. If they keep doing it, kick them out. There is no solution for secret chronicle sheets being effectively blank when applied to the wrong character beyond making the information on them available for player perusal.


ryric wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

Well that blows the whole idea out of the water. Google-Fu tells me "The true cubic footage weights are 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, for solid unbroken stone" a medium sized space is 125 cubic feet. So you need a 18,125 pound block to deal a 3D6 drop. Assuming the block drops at least 30 feet meaning you take a -2 on your attack for being beyond the first range increment of a falling object. Getting a 4D6 drop requires a stone of 145,000 pounds. Though at this point if you hit something of a smaller size than the stone there should be a rule to just squish it but that is entirely GM fiat and actually against the listed rules. On the plus side, my characters will feel damned heroic for shrugging off a mountain falling on them. how hard do you swing a mace again?
I'm pretty sure a Medium object doesn't need to be a 5' cube, just approximately the size of a person. Now, rock is about three times as dense as a person, so you're still looking at a ~600 pound rock for a Medium object. Going by doubling in size is going up one size category, you'd need 4800 pounds for Large(4d6), about 38,000 pounds for Huge(6d6), and much much more for bigger.

Or you could just use blast damage for substantially higher damage.

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wellsmv wrote:

well some of us dont care what you think...

cheating is cheating...

A) what rule is broken by looking at a chronicle sheet?

B) You just violated the Core Tenets of organized play as described on page 5 of the guide.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Careful.

What you are asking, can be considered Chronicle fishing.

See how the community sees it, here.

I hate that this is the community's* stance...

*the community framed as the opinions of a small group of vocal personages on the forums, which is a different kettle of fish entirely...


Casual Viking wrote:
Traits: Gifted Adept (APG), Missionary (APG)

The trait you're looking for is Lore Seeker, not Missionary. The latter only works for divine casters, the former is for arcane.

I would note that adding more to Scorching Ray's CL does nothing. Essentially, advancing Scorching Ray further would require you to access metamagic feats, which would lock out use of your drum due to action economy... In effect, while you get more spells and of higher levels, your build's resources for the first six levels went to a spell that dead ended. Meanwhile, the kineticist's damage continues to scale non linearly by level, and he picks up neat little options usable pretty much at will such as TK Invis or Celerity.

Adding even one level to the comparison gives the Scorching Ray caster nothing save a feat and more casts per day, while the Kineticist gains Composite Blasts, another talent, and more damage. An Empowered Physical Composite Blast, for example, does 12d6+33 assuming level of 7, Con 22, Deadly Aim, and full Elemental Overflow benefit. So which does more, blaster caster or kineticist, depends entirely on the level break points, in much the same way as a Wizard looking better than a Sorcerer at odd level breaks.

Or at least, that's been my initial examination of the class...


Catharsis wrote:
Meanwhile, an empowered physical blast does 32 dmg at 6th level.

4d6+25= average 39 damage, 41 with point blank shot. This assumes 6 Con mod, deadly aim, and 3 points of burn accepted at the start of the day.

3d6+3 (Blast) +6 Con +4 Elemental Overflow +4 Deadly Aim +1d6+8 Empower

Attack roll is 4(Bab)+4 to 5(Dex) +2 Elemental Overflow -2 Deadly Aim, or roughly +8 or +9 at level 6, one higher with point blank shot.

Aether, Air, and Water all give good utility, Earth provides interesting defensive options, Fire is... well it's fire... and it does... things...


Empowered physical blast with deadly aim in the mix: 4d6+25. 1 burn, nothing if you gather.


Chess Pwn wrote:
temp HP act in all ways as HP, so yes he'd gain consciousness but when the spell ends he'd go unconscious again if he didn't receive healing

Cite your source. Because Temp HP don't act in all ways as HP, since they can't be healed when you sustain damage.


Ravingdork wrote:
Berinor wrote:
Now he has 5 hit points and 6 non-lethal damage, so he's unconscious. His cleric friend casts aid on him, giving him 5 temporary hit points. So he has 6 non-lethal damage and 10 hit points. Hence, he's conscious.
You sure about that? I'm not so sure temporary hit points count as actual healing for the purposes of things like making you regain consciousness. I imagine they are more like a damage buffer and little else. If you have already accumulated enough damage to lose consciousness in the first place, adding a buffer isn't going to do you much good.

I suspect Ravingdork has the right of it here... at least, on a casual reading of the relevant rules sections. Which results in some weird scenarios.

Reasoning:
When your current hit points drop below your non lethal damage total, you fall unconscious. The text is very careful to refer to temporary hit points separately from your current hit point total. Essentially, you have: Temporary HP: 0+, Nonlethal damage: 0+, and Current Hp: X. Three different pools that interact in different ways.


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And on the flip side of the equation: If our kineticist happens to have 5 temp hp and takes a point of burn, the temp hp are untouched, he takes 3 points of non lethal damage.
Separate tracks, non lethal and hp+temp hp...


Ravingdork wrote:
Wow. Lots of misinformation floating around. Lots of corrections needing to be posted.

It's like people don't even read the book before arguing...


Writer wrote:
Random question: if I go expanded element (aether) do I get access to the aether boost composite blast?

Hmmm... yes?

AETHERIC BOOST
Element aether; Type composite blast (Sp);
Prerequisites telekinetic blast, expanded element (any)

So... basically, if aether is one of your elements, regardless of whether it came first or as a result of expanded element, you get aetheric boost.

Which is... interesting...
My 8th level Kineticist is now able to land an Empowered Aetheric Boosted Deadly Aimed Telekinetic Blast at +12 for 6d6+36, average 57 damage, for 3 burn. Neat. Or I can mix in Kinetic Blade, loosing Elemental Overflow and Deadly Aim for +12/+7 for 6d6+24 a swing for the same burn. Average full attack damage of 90 before Haste, 135 if Hasted, if all hit.


Melkiador wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:

TELEKINETIC FINESSE

Element aether; Type utility (Sp); Level 1; Burn 0
You can perform any sort of fine manipulation you choose within
close range, including attempting Sleight of Hand and Disable
Device checks.
So first, the ability is spell like, meaning that you cant cast it when using your basic or haul. Second, you can perform slight of hand which would target attended objects which basic can't do. Third, it doesn't reference basic, while haul does. Fourth, it's range is different than basic. Fifth, it doesn't use words like "when" or "while".

So what's the maximum weight limit of what you can manipulate with your supposed alternate SLA? The text of the ability does not refer to any spells, nor any values for size of object/weight of object, etc. Is there a limit? If there's no limit, could I then choose to perform a Sleight of Hand check and steal the planet we're standing on? It's within 30' (provided we're standing on it.)

The ability, if you divorce it from Basic TK, lacks basic data such as limits of weight and size. On the other hand, if (as I believe is the case) it is a modifying ability given the same ability designator as Basic TK (See also: TK Haul), it would inherit Basic TK's limitations on size and weight and there is no longer an issue.

And that's the absolute last I'm saying on TK Finesse, save recommending it for Aether Kineticists.


TELEKINETIC FINESSE
Element aether; Type utility (Sp); Level 1; Burn 0
You can perform any sort of fine manipulation you choose within
close range, including attempting Sleight of Hand and Disable
Device checks.

Expanded Element (Su): At 7th level, a kineticist
learns to use another element or expands her
understanding of her own element. She can choose
any element, including her primary element. She
gains one of that element’s simple blast wild talents
that she does not already possess, if any. She also gains
all composite blast wild talents whose prerequisites
she meets, as well as the basic wild talent of her chosen
expanded element (for instance, basic aerokinesis if she
chooses air)
. See Composite Blasts on page 15 for additional
rules for and descriptions of composite blasts. She doesn’t
gain the defense wild talent of the expanded element.


Melkiador wrote:
TK finesse has no prereqs. It does exactly what it says. Fine manipulation of objects allowing slight of hand and disable device checks as a spell like ability. TK finesse can target attended objects, which mage hand can't.

Your comprehension of the text and mine differ so greatly I can no longer engage with you on this topic.


Melkiador wrote:

Where does Mage hand say?

And TK finesse is its own SLA. You don't actually have to have basic to pick it up.

There is literally no way to obtain TK Finesse without obtaining Basic TK.


Melkiador wrote:
TK Finesse could really use better language. It seems to be its own thing independent of Basic TK or Haul.

It super clearly applies to basic tk, since that's pretty much the only ability an aether kineticist has that it could apply to at that level.


Imbicatus wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Or play an aether kineticist and use the same shuriken over and over again with your kinetic blast!
You apply the blast damage to the item you're throwing as well as the target, so I don't think they will last very long.

Adamantine shuriken. Or just choose to do the first part of the tk blast and not the latter half.


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TK Finesse says I can perform fine manipulation, including being able to perform skills like Disable Device or Sleight of Hand.

TK Haul increases my weight limit.

I can lift and manipulate a single object, I can also hold liquids. This tells me that the force my TK is exerting is not on the edges, but distributed over the lower surface of the object or liquid I'm lifting.

Now: the bridge. If my object is a single object, I can lift and manipulate it how I want within range. If I therefore have a foldable object, such as a series of metal plates with hinges or riveted onto canvas, I have a deployable surface upon which people can walk, that can be deformed into useful shapes like domes, rings, or similar. Think of it not unlike a panel quilt with metal plates stitched into the panels.

The idea I presented initially, of a series of unconnected metal plates, does not work by RAW. However, the updated idea of a series of plates connected by hinges or canvas cloth, works perfectly fine. I suggest, going forward, folks not focus on my initial suggestions, but instead on the idea of the metal quilt.


Or play an aether kineticist and use the same shuriken over and over again with your kinetic blast!


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I'd tell ya why it was a good idea, but I can't seem to remember anything, give me a moment...


Kineticist: Gain 1/6 of an Extra Wild Talent feat.

Straight outta the book.


Catharsis wrote:

The paper plate won't rupture if you rest it on your palm. No reason TK should only hold up the edges.

Re Impale: Gah, no infusion at 7th? That's an argument in favor of Metal. Incidentally, is there a final word on an Extra Wild Talent feat...?

Mud: Are you sure?! I was convinced it was by element, not by simple blast. Anyway, Mark seemed pretty relaxed about making new composite blasts (Permafrost?), so at least that should work.

You get your choice of talent at 7th IF you expanded element into your original element.

What's the question on Extra Wild Talent? It's a feat, that exists and requires you take a talent 2 levels lower than your maximum, and you gain the feat from the FCB.


Genuine wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Still wouldn't work, for the same reason using alchemists fire with telekinetic blast doesn't do anything aside from a standard telekinetic blast.
And why not? You couldn't in the playtest, sure. But now the telekineticist can use his blast to function as though he was throwing the item instead using a normal blast. Why not alchemical fire? I also imagine that telekineticists will regularly carry around bandoliers of daggers and shurikens with various materials and magics to help deal with DR.

Or +1 (Lesser) Designating shuriken. Bam!


Aelryinth wrote:

]Hold up a paper plate with stuff on it.

The paper plate can still rupture, dumping everything...and you're still holding onto the paper plate.
That's what I'm trying to get across. Have to be careful of the weight limit of the carpet itself.

==Aelryinth

Stop holding the paper plate by the edges?

Yes, if you exert force in the middle of a plane which only has counter force at the edges, the plane risks damage. However, if you meet the downward force with upward force at the point where the downward force is being exerted, the plane is likely going to be entirely fine, provided it is unlikely to suffer from compression.

And the weight of the metal plates in the (hastily provided, not well considered) example depends on the weight and density of the plates. A quarter inch plate of tin weighs a lot less than an inch thick plate of iron, for example.

But we're starting to get into in depth physics discussion here, which probably isn't the intended topic of the thread...


Archmage Joda wrote:
Well, my guess would be Human favored class bonus (+1/6 Extra Wild Talent feat) taken at levels 2-7, which would enable grabbing up of Impale right at level 7 without needing to double down on element.

Except that the feat requires your talent be two levels lower than the highest level of talent you can acquire. So you'd be able to select Impale at level 10 at the earliest with Extra Wild Talent, whether gained from FCB or not.


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Myrryr wrote:
Now, if the ability doesn't work with telekins, why is allowed?

Because "Universal" is cheaper to print than "Air, Earth, Fire, and Water."


Philo Pharynx wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
*I'm maintaining that through clever use of the Basic Telekinesis power, one can get pseudo flight starting at level 4 through the simple expediency of purchasing a plank of wood and zipping around on your telekinetic hover board, but YMMV.
I would expect that this would have stability issues like a carpet of flying or broom of flying. Anything that moves you would likely knock you off of it - requiring acrobatics or ride. And it takes a standard action like self-TK. But it does give you the maneuverability that self-TK doesn't.

To be clear: I'm not really advocating using this in combat much, since it eats your standards, making you worthless. It is, however, a very expedient way of getting around obstacles until you get (Greater) Self Telekinesis. If you decide you want to take your hover board higher than 10 feet or so, I highly recommend investing in Boots of the Cat, Snapleaf, some other means of Feather Falling, or a shovel and a coffin.


It's more so, I missed that it had to be a single object, which is fine, it just means we need to have a clever series of hinges on those plates, resulting in it being a single, quasi flexible metal object.

Essentially, there's a couple ways to do it. You can either have a whole bunch of triangles or a whole bunch of squares. After that, it's a matter of folding it in clever ways to make what forms you need.

If you need a visual aid, grab some grid paper and cut out a 3x10 rectangle. Then separate row 1 from 2 from column 1 to column 9, then do similar with rows 2 and 3, starting at column 10 and working back to column 2. Should end up with a quasi "s" shape of paper. Every blue line is a hinge and any way you can fold it along those blue lines is a shape you can make with your bridge plate.

Triangles are harder to make a visual aid for, but are more flexible in the number of forms you can make with em. Essentially, you're 3d modeling with a simple poly map consisting of metal plates with hinges.

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