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The Fox wrote:
That is also my understanding, my question was meant for Compton to provoke a definitive "No, and there will be no change on this issue, you're going to have to absorb the hit to your character wealth incurred by erratum related rebuilding." Or a "Good catch! Let's let any who are rebuilding at this juncture sell back at full price, with the understanding that future rebuilds will be governed by the new rules the guide put in place" or some strange middle ground that will surely confuse and frighten me...
Robert Hetherington wrote:
Wei Ji, the problem is
that certain items do not fall under the loose definitions the guide allows resale for and are nonetheless only applicable for a narrow range of characters. Thus, someone playing, say, an occultist arcanist who bought spell lattice or rune stones of power would be eligible for a rebuild but could not resell those wondrous items for full value. As of this post, Compton has mentioned in the petition thread he'd be looking at adjusting the ACG errata rebuild possibly, so pending that resolving, I suppose my question is less critical than Nefreet's...
Don't rub it in Eric... *grumble*
My complaints regarding the erratum are off topic. This thread is clearly for discussion regarding the new guide. It does appear that wondrous items only usable by a select set of character classes have been left in the lurch, so to speak, creating instances in which players are penalized for rebuilding away from erratum they may find onerus for one reason or another. If it's not too late to do so, I'd like this remedied, if at all possible.
Question: Say I have an arcanist I intend to retrain, perhaps into a kineticist. Say that arcanist bought a runestone of power and a spell lattice. As these items do not modify my Abilities, I am stuck with them (can't sell back at full value) on my Kineticist who cannot use them?
Cause that's what it's reading like and that's really irritating if so...
I shall see how it goes but summoning isn't really an option anymore give how limited the ability is now.
Eh, you do get about 3 a day off the SLA by dumping CHA before you touch your spells. It's feasible to play a summon focused Occultist Arcanist, if you're ok with selecting Summon Mon as one of your highest level spell selections, which you probably are since you're taking the summoning feats. It sucks spending a full round to summon, but if you're leading combat off with one of your standard action summons before following up with a full round summon after, you might be able to make due.
Alternately, you can forget casting offensive spells, take a 13 Int, max your Cha, and just do summons and buffs. Maybe. Sort of.
Alternately Alternately, take one of the multiple Standard action summoning classes that aren't Occultist Arcanist. Summoner, Preservationist Alchemist, Cleric with Sacred Summons, Warpriest at 10+, Wizard with Academae Graduate... there are options out there...
occultist seems to be hit harder, but who cares for a summoner?^^
We who actually play such characters care quite a bit.
Happily, an easy alternative exists for my PFS Occultist Arcanist: switch to Wizard and take Academae Graduate. I even get Shift, Dimensional Steps, and accelerated spell level access. Win-win?
/sighs, staring at his pair of arcanists that need rebuilding
Chess Pwn wrote:
when you take the feat you gain three more in your pool right then. Then when you prepare spells you gain 3+1/2 your level.
If you believe the first half of the feat Extra Reservoir is a single time, one instance benefit gained when you take the feat, then I am afraid your comprehension of the rules is so... different... from my own that I cannot engage in conversation on this rules topic with you (and possibly many, many others.)
For anyone who reads the feat the way I and many others do (that it grants 3 points to your daily pool and increases your max by 3), my breakdown above exists and is usable, to a degree. It's up to you whether you decide doing your main thing 3 times a day is enough or not.
/walks away, shaking his head with a slightly confused expression
I think having so many options errata'd at once has a bigger immediate negative impact than addressing them one at a time, but that's what we get as a community for screaming for the entire book to be errata'd =P
Eh, I'd rather get my period of slamming my head into my desk over with in a single sitting than in multiple sit downs. Saves me trips to the hardware store for new desks...
It is theoretically feasible to continue to play a Cha dumped Occultist Arcanist, if you're okay spending two feats in order to use your SLA three times a day. Here's the breakdown:
SLA costs 1 point - 3 uses before Consume Spells.
That covers your regular PFS career up to level 11.
Eh now sonny, some of us started this pathfinder thing while the tablet was still a dream on startrek. Had to walk to the con, up hill both ways, past the wooly magic players and the saber toothed mah johngers... you ever seen saber toothed dentures? They're not pretty....
I suppose I haven't been perfectly forthright: I started with hardcovers for the CRB, APG, Bestiary, and ISWG. It's only when I started playing PFS that I foresaw the difficulties carrying a number of hardcovers would bring, and therefore transferred to digital format. Yes, that does mean I had to repurchase the aforementioned four books.
I have not regretted so doing.
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Besides - Wyroot can't be used for a temple sword anyway - it only works for wooden weapons or weapons with wooden hafts. A sword is neither.
Sansetsukon.Two handed, made of wooden hafts, carries the blocking property for Crane Style, same crit range as the temple sword.
Alex Mack wrote:
I was aware that I can't get extra Sansetsukon attacks via Ki-Points without the Ki-Focus Weapon. My plan for tanking and flying kick was to mainly use the unarmed attacks for trips. Thus I can also somewhat constrain movement away from me.
Trip goes versus CMD, which scales swiftly for many monsters, and gets additional bonuses if you're fighting something with more legs. Foot Stomp goes versus AC, which scales less well, and consumes your opponent's standard whereas trip consumes their move. Since Flying Kick early on is only giving you 10 feet of movement, it makes more sense to delay it to level 10 (where it gives more movement) and take Foot Stomp early on, as it is significantly superior to trip.
Something to note: the extra flurry attack off of ki needs be an unarmed attack. So your (and my) Crane Style Setsukon monk will probably only use ki to power ki powers, and occasionally will take an extra unarmed strike to use your style strike.
I'm building mine to be tanky, so I'm actually NOT taking Flying Kick as my primary style strike, but am instead taking Foot Stomp to constrain enemy movement, letting me 'tank' for lower AC characters in my party. Otherwise, it's just the Crane Style line, Barkskin at 4, UMD and a wand of Mage Armor... the usual monk stuff.
AC 25 at level 3 if I get to swing my stick!
Note: Wyroot not legal for Society play.
The heaviest books have the cheapest PDFs ($9.99). This is deliberate.
Most of the player companions are only about $8.00. So, uh...
As far as the OP goes, you could always sell your physicals and use the proceeds to buy pdfs.
/pats self on back for having foreseen the problems buying physical books would bring and opting to instead go entirely digital.
Run as written, let him figure things out?
My general approach to GMing is that it's my job to do three things:
Note: #3 there isn't "Make sure everyone has fun" because that's actually impossible. It's up to the player to find fun in something. I do need to make sure that what I'm running has possibilities for the players to have their fun, but ultimately it's up to them to actually derive enjoyment from the proceedings.
Looking over the opening post, you're running an AP and are worried that the player who's opting to play a non combat character won't have fun. In theory, he knows what he's getting into. The AP is named GiantSLAYER, so someone who isn't really down with slaying stuff, giants in particular, might find some issues with being not very useful. That said, I'm assuming (without reading the AP) that it's not all slaying all the time, and that situations may occur in which a silver tongued bard with a heart of gold and a sword of lead might find utility. Maybe the player is really looking for opportunities to run, screaming, from an onslaught of giants after his friends have all been ground to make bread. Maybe the player's banking on rich interpersonal connections between his fellow PCs to alleviate the boredom of "I hit the big thing with my sharp pointy stick until it stops moving."
Or maybe not. Maybe he really did pick the wrong character idea for the campaign and he's not going to have any fun. I suggest, instead of determining which it is for him, you give him some rope, let him figure out where his fun lies, and be a bit generous with rebuilding if he determines that Flaily McWetnoodle, Bard and Professional Pantswetter isn't really what he wants to run with in the game. Empower the player. Heck, it could even lead up to a Crowning Moment of Awesome as Flaily discovers the inner strength he'd been hiding all along and smashes the menacing giant with his trusty lute for 50 damage before grabbing the fighter's greatsword and finishing the brute off!
tl;dr: let him make mistakes, if they are in fact mistakes, and work with him after to fix things instead of solving problems that may not exist.
Push Potent Magic down your priority list. You won't have the Pool to pay for it, and the benefits it gives is basically +5% over the effects regular old pool grants. Such a minor benefit isn't worth one of your limited exploits.
Even Dim Slide isn't all that great since, again, your pool is going to your Occultist SLA. Like, all of it. And some of your spells. And maybe some of your gold in the form of spell level 2 consumables you're going to nom for more reservoir points.
Is the familiar really worth it? Won't it be affected by any area of effect damage spells that come your way?
Yes, it is absolutely worth an exploit and a feat. Improved Evasion tends to take care of most of your AoE worries. Even if you lose it, it's only a couple hundred gold to replace it. I haven't lost my familiar yet, but then, I usually stand where I don't get targeted, let alone draw AoE spells. My arcanist has been hit... twice? Ever? In 8 levels of play?
Ha! That's the guide I used when making my Occultist.Good advice in there.
Ah, and make sure you write out the stat blocks of your augmented summons on a handy easy reference thingie! Nothing (okay, hyperbole, but still) sucks worse than playing at a table with a summon focused dude that isn't prepared.
Woo! That's a lot of posts! Let's see...
Quick Study is nice. I haven't taken it, but I've been in situations where I wish I had. The big issue is, you're going to be running pretty close to thin on your Arcane Pool, and consuming spells, while it will keep you going, also reduces your options. Anything that competes with your summon SLA for pool usage is going to have to be evaluated really carefully.
Familiar is going to be one of your exploits just as Improved Familiar is going to be one of your feats. Simply is. Getting a wand monkey (not an actual monkey. I went with the Azata) to sit on your shoulder and use wands for you further shatters your action economy. I've had turns where I had my summoned Hound Archon smash face with Greatsword, my azata threw out an Ill Omen off a wand, and I followed up with a Glitterdust personally. For those playing the home game, that's effectively the addition of Persistent Metamagic to any spell I care to cast for 2 PA instead of increased spell slots. Then there's the wands of Stone Call, CLW, Acid Arrow, Litany of Sloth, you get the idea...
Summon Good Monster: I took it, I think I've used it never. It'll come into play at some point I'm sure, but don't feel you need to rush into it.
On Arcane Pool in general: You're going to want to take Extra Reservoir at least once, probably around level 5. It ends up being an extra summon more often than you'd think.
I looked at the rings of summoning affinity, and they come into play so late in the game as to not be worthwhile til you're about to retire. The Aeon ring is pretty good. The rest feel pretty meh, particularly the good rings if you took Summon Good Monster.
Yes, you can freely summon regardless of alignment. My Chaotic Good Occultist has slung down fiendish eagles once, but has been ready to swap to fiendish Aurochs or similar at higher levels. He eventually plans to summon Succubi for obvious reasons.
Evolved Summon Monster is not legal for PFS play. Disregard recommendations for it. (I wish I could take this!)
Take a look at the Zenithgames guide to pathfinder guides some time. It's got a summoning focused guide that I found extremely useful when planning my occultist.
My Self wrote:
"I want to use magic" -> "You're a wizard, Harry!" (Sorcerer, Arcanist, Cleric, and Oracle may also apply for this role.)
Until that SLA FAQ got reversed a while back, I had grand designs for a PFS character that had zero spellcaster levels but insisted he was a powerful mage. He'd pull it off with a slew of scrolls and wands, UMD, and a heaping helping of some PrC's that normally only mages qualify for, letting him get better CL and stat usage out of those scrolls.
So very sad, losing him to a rules reversal...
I've a PFS Occultist Arcanist up to level 8 and he's a beast!
Then again, I haven't really run out of arcane pool.
You'll suffer early on, summoning celestial (or fiendish!) eagles to harry foes and make mages and archers unhappy, but once you hit 3rd and can summon small earth elementals, you really come into your own. At level 9 or so, your options become incredibly vast, with a slew of SLAs at your fingertips thanks to your summoned monster minions.
Eh, I read the wiki on her. My character is pretty different. For starters, no betrayal by my characters' mentor, the change of heart was more a "I'm really getting tired of killing all these people" with a heaping dose of getting caught in the act by a Sarenrite priest who offered the Redemption or Death deal. The proselytizing is her probation, though it's not been a very onerous task as she's began to really believe in the message she's spreading
I'd go on about it, but I'm on a tablet and its only tangentially related to the thread. Suffice to say, she's a rogue that only looks like a rogue in that she does extra heaps of damage in certain conditions and has a bunch of extra skill points.
That's the one from those Dragon Age games, right?Mm... Maybe? There could be similarities, but I'm not nearly familiar enough with Leliana to know. I certainly didn't have her in mind when putting my rogue together.
Edit: on further inspection, the two are very, very different.
"What does your character do?"
People do get too hung up on names of classes sometimes.
Heh. My rogue proselytizes more than most clerics or similar characters of faith. Has to do with her being a repentant follower of Sarenrae looking to claw her way back into the land of morality after a hard 60 years of stealing, murdering, and everything else horrible. Works for the pathfinders so she can travel around and spread the word of Sarenrae's redemption, using her fist to subdue evil long enough to be offered redemption. It's rare that she meets an NPC and doesn't offer them a pamphlet about Sarenrae's religious services in the area.
I've been mistaken for a cleric or paladin on a few occasions. It's only when the sneak attack dice land that people go "wait, what?"
Unless there is something I've missed they should FAQ this before people try doing what I just thought of.
Ki pool for starters. I've been staring at that talent, wishing I could take it on my PFS Unchained Rogue to gain access to those tasty ki based ninja tricks...
... Wow. You have asked for our input on your build, shot down and dismissed our perfectly valid recommendations and observations, then inferred that we wasted our time giving you suggestions on your build because you're scrapping it for a Sorcerer.
I've played plenty. I'll thank you not to make assumptions about my history.
But since my recommendations are being met by "that's overpowered" or "I'm not a powergamer" despite this being a character build critique thread, I'm going to bow out.
*saunters off, wondering why he even bothers*
I'd actually lower the INT a bit (you don't really need THAT much)
Literally the only stat an Arcanist cares about is his casting stat. Everything else is 'nice to have.' Take a 20, dump Str and Cha to pay for it. Boost it with items as quickly as possible. Take the Occultist Archetype. Planar Ally a succubus for her Profane Gift and fun times during downtime. Slam down a summon with the SLA, then shut down dangerous threats with stupid high DC control magics.
Energy Shield is terrible. Take Familiar instead. Take Improved Familiar for an imp at level 7 and give it wands of stuff like Litany of Sloth, Ill Omen, and other spells that offer no save and ruin peoples' days.
If you're focusing on summoning as much as you are, taking Spell Penetration is kinda counterproductive. Your summons won't care, and you have other spells that don't allow SR so why would you ever bother to roll to pen it?
My Self wrote:
Consider also having the cleric or you toss resist energy, communal down when you see the dragon.
I'm confuzzled why this wasn't in post #2 of the thread. Communal Resist Energy: Acid immediately shuts his breath weapon down virtually entirely for like 20 minutes per person. Once that's up, his options are to run away or come down and fight mano a drago. A dragon on the ground is a dead dragon, more often than not.
Acid arrow is good for a blast spell wand.
I like wands that do things other than damage. Dealing damage is easy, anyone can do it. It's stuff like Litany of Sloth or Ill Omen that makes for good standard actions. Well, and Haste. Or Faerie Fire. Utility stuff that makes bad guys cry.
Michael Donley wrote:
There is also a high variance depending on the order people do the rooms, especially at level 1. The <redacted> that can kill a couple people is a lot easier if you found the <spoiler>
You mean the <redacted> that can kill a couple people and have them raise as more <redacted> resulting in a potential TPK? Or the <redacted> that inflicts <redacted> until it again kills a person, causing it to raise as a <redacted>? Or what about the <redacted> that ambushes and pseudo pounces that can TPK parties? I've even had the <redacted><redacted> use her <redacted> to nearly TPK a group through an exceptional series of rolled d4's. Thornkeep level 1 can be brutal, if you start doing things poorly, whether through tactics or rolls.
And then there's the <redacted> at the end of the next level, followed by the CR 8 <redacted> the floor after that... Basically each level of Thornkeep has 1-3 fights that are super dangerous surrounded by piles of chaff.
yeah me and my group are kind of going old school and allowing certain races including planetouched races like the tieflings and ifrits
I'm afraid that just isn't how Pathfinder Society is intended to function.
The Additional Resources page sets forth the list of allowable items in Society play, banning certain items. Adherence to these rules ensures that a character who is legally created will be accepted at any table you choose to play it at, regardless of group or locale. So if, for example, you wanted to take your level 3 gnomish alchemist to a convention, there is an assurance that you will be able to find games in which to play said character as the GMs and players at those tables have voluntarily accepted the strictures set forth by organized play staff.
Your group is, of course, free to enjoy Pathfinder the system however you see fit, including whatever options you choose to include. However, those characters will only be legal for society play if they adhere to the organized play rules, otherwise you're simply playing a home game. You can read all about this in the Guide to Organized Play, which is a free download.
I wish you luck with your inquisitor, but if you intend it to be a society legal character, it will need to have been played as a Tiefling prior to the beginning of Season 6, have an applicable race boon applied, or will need to be of a different race. The current list of accepted races (without special boons) is: Those in the Core Rulebook, Nagaji, Kitsune, Wayang, and Tengu.
If you do rather poorly at it, it can take as little as an hour... *snerk*
It's a straight up combat slog. If your group gets through combat turns efficiently (no more than 30 seconds or so per player turn) you can get through it quick. If you have players that take forever on their turns and need to look up a lot of rules, you're probably going to run out of time.
Um. Wow, dumb ambushers. Exactly how did you get initiative on them?
Foresight. Possibly Extended by rod. Or just use scrolls of it.
And yes, Holy Word works. If the wizard is evil. And if the summons are evil. But suppose the caster readies to counterspell instead of summoning that last time, or Dim Doors instead of summoning, or suppose those monsters were celestial critters. But then we're back into the land of caster v caster, when the initial argument was martials v caster.
Spell Storing can't go onto an arrow, as it's melee weapons only, and anyway, it caps at 3rd level spells. So that explicitly does not work.
But again, this discussion isn't the goal of the thread. Let's actually discuss what was intended: how to make fighters and rogues not suck compared to casters. If you disagree with the premise, that's fine, but this isn't the thread for you.
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Beat the chessmaster in the boxing ring, beat the boxing champion in a round of chess.
Just as long as it isn't an actual round of chess, since Int isn't a cleric's strongest stat :)
Not that the Brawler's exactly Einstein either... but it would be a good game, not a bespoken outcome.
For those thinking spells per day is an issue: there's also pearls of power, the Bloatmage PrC, wands, staves, scrolls...
I just played through a 12 hour dungeon romp with my level 7 occultist arcanist. We rested once, because I was low on spells, but we could have kept going on my wands, summon SLA, and rechargeable reservoir pool. Most of my spell expenditures were spent giving people (the fighters and rogue) movement modes to traverse obstacles or get into tactically advantageous positions. I even tanked an ooze for a couple rounds with my Hp after it ambush grappled me! And then I used escape artist to get out of the grapple, provoked an AoO with my familiar since oozes generally don't have Combat Reflexes (thanks Know: Dungeoneering!) and walked away while my Kineticist buddy nuked it the last bit.
As far as the actual question goes: If combat maneuvers actually worked at higher levels with minimal expenditure, it'd give fighters options. If weapons were more varied than damage type/dice and crit, more minor options would be available. If all those pesky feat taxes (Precise Shot, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Power Attack) were just built into the fighter classes, it'd open up space for more options. If more feats scaled, they'd be more analogous to spells, which seems to be what the 3.0 designers were going for (see: 3.0 Fighter) and failed horribly at. Unfortunately, any attempt at giving Fighters a 1-6 or 1-9 maneuver progression that directly maps to spells is probably going to meet resistance and is easy to fall into "wuxia/weaboo" land.
As an aside: that entire line of argument (wuxia) infuriates me to no end, particularly because it uses the derogatory term "weaboo" which really grinds my gears.
If fighters were given a set of tiered abilities, akin to spells but grounded in the mundane, I imagine it would bridge the gap quite well. They did similar to this in 3.5 with the Tome of Battle stuff, but maybe went too spectacular. I'm thinking something that began with weaker tier (fatigue, shaken, sicken) debuffs at tier 1, mobility utilities at tier 2 (swim speed, climb speed, speed enhancement, ignore AoO's for movement, etc.), stronger debuffs at tier 3 (nausea, exhaust, frighten), and stuff like the ever desired pounce effect at tier 4. Could also add in self flanking like with Circling Mongoose or Dimensional <feat name I can't be arsed to remember> and other things on that level. It might grant the non linear scaling fighters need without triggering the wuxia reflex, if fluffed accordingly. That was the big problem with the ToB stuff: fluff and going too magical with its effects.
Why not Bard?
Archaeologist Archetype gives you more self buffing, Bard spells gives you a lot of utility and buffs like Heroism, you can wear armor and use a shield without sucking on spell failure, your BAB stays high...
Maybe consider a Bloodrager 1, Paladin 2, Bard 2 entry into DD? Gives you rage, Paladin saves, more atk/dmg/saves/skill bonuses off Archaeologist's Luck (take Fate's Favored for +2 instead of +1.) Divine Hunter archetype for Paladin makes sense, as you then have Precise Shot for 'free', trading away your heavy armor proficiency that you weren't using anyway because spells. Slot in the Bloodrager archetype of your choice (or don't) and you instantly have a tanky smashy casty Dragonsnake dude.
I... may have been tinkering with this for PFS for awhile...
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Ain't no kill like overkill.
Besides, it's not my fault the Occultist's summon ability is minutes per level and the Babau can cast Dispel at will. At least I didn't summon 1d4+2 (Superior Summons) of the beasties and have them all unload at it.
Either way, that's one spooky sword bagged, tagged, and on its way to the warehouse.
At a convention, I have the opportunity to play 6-97, 6-98, 6-99, 7-00, and 7-01. But not in order! Problem?
Secret Wizard wrote:
2. I take it you haven't looked into the Spirit Guide archetype. Instant versatility.
3. Uh... what? Assuming by 'battle mode' you mean Wildshape, There's feat(s) for that. Natural Spell for starters followed by Wild Speech takes care of pretty much every casting restriction imposed by Wildshape, save for access to metamagic rods. But then, you're a spell casting dinosaur, so who cares?
Don't really disagree with your other stuff.
Efficiency is the name of the game. It's why I didn't go higher than +3 on Armor/Shield or +2 on Ring or Amulet. Should be doable on a level 11 salary, assuming you didn't need to shell out for multiple raise dead castings on the way up, which you shouldn't have needed to.
That's also why attention was paid to maintaining decent melee capability, to ensure people keep swinging at you because you're a threat. The theorycraft in my prior post springs from a PFS DD build I put together that wasn't defense optimized. I'd gone DD purely for moar Str! but then realized that hey, that's +4 Natural Armor that stacks with existing Natural Armor and an Amulet. That's the basis for a defense build and, well, instant tank.
The problem, Renegadesheperd, in going with the crusader cleric is that you don't qualify for DD due to the Kobolds of Golarion book not being PFS legal. My assembly covers the arcane casting prereq by dipping into Archaeologist Bard, which also dovetails nicely with Fate's Favored and the focus on self buffing, amping our saves, atk, dmg, and skill checks. You could achieve similar by dipping a level of Archaeologist Bard, but you'd have dropped 2 BAB before entering DD, and lost a cleric caster level to boot, not to mention DD not advancing clerical progression without that kobold feat (which doesn't work for Cleric due to not being a spontaneous divine caster)
I really wish I had a better answer for what to put in the pre DD 3 level stack. Savage Tech 1, Archaeologist 1 are easy, but once they're in, the question becomes what do I take without sacrificing BAB. I've considered Mutagenic Mauler Brawler for more AC by dint of its mutagen, but didn't like relying on a 30min consumable that takes an hour to brew. There's about three Fighter archetypes worth considering (Viking, Lore Warden, Weapon Master) for varying reasons. There's Musket Master Gunslinger for the luls, since I get the fast musket ability right before DD, shoring up my ranged capabilities in theory... except a bow is superior due to my freakishly high strength. I could take Ranger, if I hated myself. I considered Martial Artist Monk, but that eliminates my only true dump stat (which I don't want to dump anyway) and clashes with Nagaji and with wearing armor, effectively lowering my AC.
Nagaji doesn't work because they cannot qualify for racial heritage (a human feat) to qualify for scaled discipline (a kobold feat). Unless scaled discipline has made it into some new book, this isn't PFS legal as nothing in Kobolds of Golarion is PFS legal.
Divine Protection isn't PFS legal either, which is why when I went for a defensive 'tank' build I went the way I did. Obviously if he went Nagaji, he'd have to cycle out his feats for other stuff and qualify for DD somehow, but there's plenty of other stuff to get so... meh?
Sacred Fist 2 Master of Many Styles Monk 1-2 Sacred Fist +X
It's... potent. Give it a spin.