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I, on the other hand, have personally witnessed a 20 foot land speed character utterly fail to reach combat on numerous occasions, including one instance where a gnoll with a short bow was able to kite him for four turns and would've continued had I not intervened with my long bow.
I will never play a 20 speed character.
Switch to Tiny Hut. It's only foiled by the enemy getting too close, you relocating, or true seeing.
Otherwise, get yourself some hide in plain sight, possibly by way of Hellcat Stealth.
Or blind enemies with Glitterdust instead of using illusions to hide. If they're high will save characters, use Burst of Radiance instead.
Oh, and "RAW" people: Players who know the intent behind a game mechanic but abuse it anyways because of an overly literal parsing of the text. This category I've encountered less in person and more online, but I know of one repeat offender in my local area, too.
Is it me? It's me isn't it? It's probably me...
Or is it? Maybe it's [redacted] or [redacted]... Hmmm...
Decent options for meta magic include:
Note: any meta magic other than Quicken will increase your spell's casting time because you are a spontaneous spell caster. There's ways to mitigate this to a degree, the most efficient being the Arcane bloodline (which I understand is not an option but is included here for completeness) and spontaneous metafocus (a feat) if you focus on boosting a single spell with meta magic. It can be worthwhile to take the full round cast on something like a persistent glitterdust, but it is a drawback for being able to apply meta magic to your spells "on the fly".
Handy example: normally Glitterdust is a standard action cast, 2nd level spell. Our plucky 14th level sorceress decides to blind some bad guys, and reaches for Glitterdust, but knows the bad guys are packing some decent Will saves. Still, she really needs those guys blind, so she opts to slam out a persistent Glitterdust as a full round action consuming a 4th level spell slot. The DC is calculated as the base spell, at spell level 2, for a total of 12+stat+relevant esoteric mods, with the caveat that those affected need to roll twice and select the lower die.
Michael Hallet wrote:
A clever or savvy player might GM their special boon PC through level 1 and possibly 2 so as to amass enough resources to bounce back if the worst happens. Or they might decide the risk is worth the extra games played as that race.
Unrelated from upthread: I knew it was me! My legend continues...
Kitty In A Fishbowl wrote:
At higher levels, not having Quicken Spell really shoots your action economy in the foot. Given that, let's see if we can't just do a quickened metamagic explanation.
Quicken Spell is a +4 spell slot adjustment. Remember this, it's important.
You're a level 14 sorceress. Go you. You've got access to spells of up to 7th level. Random encounter pops up and it's your turn. You toss out a cone of cold, cause blasting is your thing. Simple enough, you scratch off a spell slot of the appropriate level, apply your spell effect, roll some dice and drat if the thing is still standing. You could deal with it next round or hope the party drops it before it eats your face, but you recall you picked up Quicken Spell because we recommended it. You've got fireball as a 3rd level spell known and still have 7th level spell slots, so you scratch a 7th level slot and drop a quickened fireball. 10d6, right in the monster's face, no waiting, but the save dc is still calculated as the base spell level, or 13+stat+esoteric mods.
Next fight, again you cone of Cold but it's still standing and this time it's fire immune. You have mirror image as a known 2nd level spell, and dimension door as a known 4th level. We can't quicken the dimension door because it would take an 8th level spell slot, so instead we go with the quickened mirror image, scratching a 6th level spell slot
Jared Thaler wrote:
We do have one GM out here whose dice just hate the party. I have watched him roll 3 20s in the first round of the first combat with x4 weapons. At some point, there is just nothing you can do.
Is it me? It's me isn't it? It's probably me... I think I remember the exact occasion this one happened.
I've been the GM for a couple TPFs. Party that got half gold, 0 PA, and a negative boon due to a couple decisions that came back to haunt them... different party that got taken apart (and I do mean apart) by flying breath weapon fiends because only one of them had picked up a back up bow other than the kineticist... TPK to a pair of clockwork soldiers in the 6-7 tier because my dice were hot and the bloatmage was the first one to die due to a crit...
Bad saves will mess you up pretty good, but having a decent band-aid (cleric/oracle) in your back pocket can generally set you right. Bad party comp or bad decisions will utterly wreck you. Then there's the random times where the dice just plain aren't your friend, but thankfully that's pretty rare.
I've personally only ever had 3 PC deaths and they got better each time. Once to a creature that should not have been in that module, once to a poor spell selection by the party caster that chained multiple fights that we miraculously defeated (though not without my druid getting thumped by a frost giant), and once recently to an out of the blue prismatic spray that nuked half the party and killed my plucky magus and her pet mongoose. Poor mongoose...
*begins to type about 8k gold differential, why a difference in primary stat should exist between the fighter and kineticist(because kineticists will generally have more Con than Fighters have Str due to not spending on weapon and due to the Elemental Overflow mechanic), alternate options for the kineticist to explore that the Fighter simply doesn't have some of which improve damage, then stops.*
Listen, we can all go back and forth, escalating the kineticist and fighter in attempts at each proving our position, or we can just accept that the two are in the same ballpark depending on the level of optimization used. One path ends up with us spending hours arguing over stupid minutiae on an internet message board, the other involves us going and doing something fun or productive. I know which I'm choosing.
A variance of 18 to 28 damage with multiple hits is more desirable than a variance of 6 to 26 on one.
While true, I think we can eke a bit more out of the kineticist.
We've got a 4d6+8 physical blast, so we're 7th level with 18 Con. That means we have Elemental Overflow +2, so at the cost of 21 points (3 burn) of nonhealable nonlethal damage (I like to think of it as my Feign Death zone), we get 4 more damage and a +2 size bonus boost to our Con and Dex. Now we're at 4d6+13, which is nifty. We could Maximize, but that just raises our floor and average without meaningfully affecting our ceiling, let's instead choose to Empower.
4d6+13 Empowered works out to 25 minimum, 55 maximum, with an average of 40.
So our comparative delta minimum is 9 points, our delta average is 6, and our delta maximum is 1, without taking into account to hit values.
That's actually fairly competitive, I think.
Compared to say, the Kineticist with 18 CON doing a 4d6+8 physical blast or a 4d6+2 energy blast. If your cold ray, for example, hits maximized, you are doing 18 damage.
4d6+2 maximized = 26, not 18?
I mean, I generally agree with your stance (I find dpr to be reliant on the level breaks involved, with the note that equipment greatly favors the fighty type over the kineticist as there just simply isn't much available to the kineticist), but your math was a touch off there.
Also: Chainsaws are awesome and should be encouraged at every table. I really want to have a summoning focused character summon up something like a Hound Archon and hand a chainsaw with relevant proficiency granting ioun stone off to it with the instruction "Evil doers are over there, go have fun with it."
This message sponsored by the Chainsaws for Hound Archons Committee of 2016.
Alignment thread! Everybody drink?
Yknow, I was just thinking I'd like to shore up that Will save...
But I still need Clustered Shots. Sigh...
Jared Thaler wrote:
I was brewing up a fighter that used a gun, and man, it is really hard to justify not taking that gunslinger level.
Of course, that's now expanded into a multiclass monstrosity, combining gunslinger, weapon master fighter, unchained monk, urban bloodrager, and possibly some other class(es) after that... don't look at me like that, I needed the bonus feats!
How else am I to combine Crane Style and guns? (Rapid Reload, Point Blank, Precise, Rapid, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Mobility, Deft Shootist, Improved Unarmed, Crane Style... by level 7.) For my next trick: fitting in Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes.
Secret Wizard: If you can provide a citation for your assertion, I'd be much obliged. It is true that you need a hand free for Crane Wing, but the basic style and Riposte should function regardless of handedness, reducing the penalty for fighting defensively to -1 and granting an extra +1 dodge when so doing. Crane Style, coupled with 3 ranks in Acrobatics, grants a +4 dodge bonus to AC completely separate from Crane Wing's bonus, the latter of which works all wonky anyway.
But then, I don't agree that gathering power results in your hand becoming occupied until the beginning of your next turn unless you're taking the 1 full round gather, which... well... I don't really recommend in general. Something like move to gather, standard to blast defensively should function just fine, and would even do so if you don a (magic) buckler.
Secret Wizard wrote:
Their design has flaws but the class works well.
I'm certainly getting some solid use out of a lowish level Chaokineticist. My party comp contains a 2hander warpriest and a dualwield slayer, so my 3d6+9 empowered physical shots are pretty noteworthy. I'm also the swarm killer for the group, since our arcane is a bard. We're 15 pt buy mostly core races, so I'm not really dabbling in the darkness stuff the element gives, but the rest of my kit seems to be functioning well enough.
I'm thinking about putting together a Crane Style using Kineticist, possibly Earth or Water or Aether for added defensiveness. I reckon taking only a -2 or -1 (depending on how far into Crane Style we go) to hit for a +4 boost to AC and CMD is a desirable thing...
Kineticist are basically fullcasters under a different system of magic. They can do some very strong things and do it at will as a way to compensate for a lack of higher level spells.
I quite disagree. The thing that makes full casters what they are is the quadratically expanding options as they level up. Kineticists expand in options fairly linearly, not unlike a fighter selecting feats.
A kineticist levels and gains 1 talent. A full caster levels and gains 2+spells/spell slots
Most broken classes are Core.
A real monster summoner would have dropped multiple SLA toting outsiders in that fight and might have a planar ally hanging around. A single basic elemental in exchange for incurable nonlethal dmg is... Well...
This... May in fact be half of how my Emerald Spire static operates.The other half is Outflank shenanigans with a support swashbuckler.
Turns out, when you ask whether things in the dungeon blend, the answer is often "yes."
Outflank+Paired Opportunists+Butterfly Stinging+Disposable Weapon.
It's pretty normal for us to run out of our opportunity attacks even with half our hitters having 8+ of them. Party comp is cleric, warpriest, magus, swashbuckler, and wizard.
Lord Fyre wrote:
/passes Will save vs alignment debate
... My desire to play a kobold in PFS from 1-20 cannot be overstated. I would sideline every character I currently have if it meant getting to play one of the squeaky buggers for more than just what True Dragons of Absalom allows for.
I won't ask for them to be generally released akin to how Nagaji/Kitsune/Wayang/Tengu were, but something like a GM boon batch or two, something I can obtain for less than ludicrous amounts of money for charity or the sum total of my boons + a lung... Man... That'd make for a swell 2016-2018.
Be sure to thank the player of the perma-dead character for their sacrifice.
Possibly with alcohol
*pours one out for the homie that paid the ultimate price to save his -5*
Basic Chaokinesis: +4 Jump is quite handy at low levels, +50% carry capacity is quite good as well if you dump Str like most kineticists. Armor alone eats through most of your encumbrance, leaving very little to fit your bags of holding, haversacks, clothes, and other tools. BC fixes that by giving you another chunk of weight you can manage. Or, throw it on the party fighter and watch him carry off half a ton of stuff.
What other talents do you have issues with? No Breath is handy for any underwater excursions you may want to do, as well as providing you a solid defense against inhaled poisons or dudes trying to suffocate you. The see in darkness stuff is obviously needed for you to see through your own darkness infusions, and is also handy for general exploration and for fighting drow and demons/devils/daemons/some undead. I guess there's Void Healer, which I agree is pretty niche, but with all the other talents available, you can just skip this one and grab the other cool stuff?
While the negative energy blast does interact strangely with some enemies, it isn't the only blast you can select. I started my chaokineticist with gravity blast precisely due to my worries about facing undead early on, and haven't really regretted it. I'll pick up the negative energy blast at 7, and suspect I'll do just fine with it against the majority of monsters. After all, it's only undead, constructs, and a vanishingly small number of other opponents where the blast is ineffective, and for those I can easily pop back over to gravity nukes.
I've a Barb 1 Bard 4 DD entry in PFS Core and she's plenty fun. Bard spells for nice utility (Featherfall to never worry about pit traps, Expeditious Retreat for speedy charges/getaways, Heroism for everything it does...), Bard music to buff self and party, rage and fast movement to hit stuff harder with that greatsword she totes about.
The other big question is how long you intend to stick with DD. 4 levels grants you the important offensive abilities of the prc besides the wings (which you won't get in standard pfs play anyway) and only costs you one drop to BAB and casting progression. You could then drop back into Bard for another point of Inspire Courage, more music per day, lore master 1/day, another point of bardic knowledge, and your second versatile performance at the cost of a point of BAB. Or you could pop into Eldritch Knight for full BAB and a bonus feat at the cost of a level of casting (ouch!)
Dirty Critical Hit.
Requires BAB 11. And that I crit. I utterly refuse to take 4 feats to maybe inflict blind at level 15 (which this character won't reach anyway as she's a PFS character.) But then, I take a dim view on most of the crit focus based feats.
And we're super off topic. Them kineticists, huh!? They sure do throw out them kinetic blasts! And I heard they got them some neat-o tricks what with flight, earth walkin' (not to be confused with Earth (Christopher) Walken), water walkin', turnin rooms all dark like, and whatever them wood fellers do. Sharpen pencils mebbe?
Can't say as I forgot it, my standard actions are more valuable than what dirty trick provides, unless I've missed a way to inflict a dirty trick on hit/sneak attack.
Oooh.... A source of negative energy damage that can harm constructs... weird... Be a thing for me to keep in mind when my Hell's Rebels VK hits 7 and gets his negative blast. Not that I anticipate a whole ton of constructs in there, barring Thrune actually turning out to be a pair of gnomes in a big coat.
And then there's the folks like me who opt to build their rogue for debuffing, combining debilitating injury with enforcer and thug to stack shaken, sickened, and db inj for a nice chunk of -4 to hit, saves, skills, -2 damage, and -2 AC.
But that's totally off topic.
While not specific to the kineticist, a kineticist benefits heavily from it. Granted not as much as a rogue, as our big damage comes regardless of positioning, but it does shore up physical blasts perceived weakness of lower accuracy.
My apologies if my prior post ruffled your feathers so to speak, I certainly didn't intend to offend, but to suggest inclusion of this fairly potent stack of accuracy boosting effects.
So I was driving around yesterday, doing my job, and thinking during the long drive about my home game kineticist. Thinking is a dangerous thing to do, but this time it may have paid off dividends.
Flanking. There's a lot of ways of pumping the +2 bonus granted by flanking. Outflank(APG) bumps the +2 to +4. Militia trait(Dragon Empires Primer) raises it another +1. The menacing enchantment(APG) (on, say, a gauntlet) raises it another +2. Rings of Tactical Precision(UltEq) in combination with Outflank raise it a further +1. They all stack. I'm not exactly a mathlympian, but a quick perusal shows an 'easy' +6 above the regular +2 granted by flanking for a total of +8. That's a sizable bonus and all you need is a warm body that can get to the other side of your target and wear a ring. It's so sizable a bonus, I'd wager a melee kineticist could then snag Power Attack and go to town, gaining another scaling damage boost to offset the loss of Elemental Overflow. Or Piranha Strike, if you dumped Str. Same difference.
A quick perusal of the guide shows no mention of any of these. Update time?
Mark Seifter wrote:
Also, annihilator gains damage at higher level faster than you might expect past level 7; it's easy to underestimate the amount of damage that +1 hit/damage adds to a full attack routine. In fact, in some ways level 7 is right before some pretty big leaps. Level 8 sees a +4 damage (increasing damage per hit from 14.5 to 18.5, so over 25%) due to increase Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization, without increasing the normal's damage.
... If the normal kineticist is using kinetic whip on a full attack (akin to the elemental annihilator taking a full attack), then level 8 is an important level for a normal kineticist as that's where BAB=+6, granting an extra swing. Granted, a physical blast is going to have trouble hitting with that iterative against level appropriate AC, but if it's an energy blast, that iterative becomes very relevant, I would think.
If I'm reading the numbers right, we've been comparing an elemental annihilator's full attack to an empowered blast from a kineticist, but what about a kineticist's regular full attack under kinetic whip/blade?
The Mortonator wrote:
Because undead are strongly linked to negative energy, it therefore makes sense for a manipulator of negative energy to interact with undead in some fashion. Normally negative energy heals the undead and negative energy is closely linked to creating and controlling them, but our plucky void kineticist doesn't even heal undead without kinetic healer. So the element that manipulates energy directly from the negative energy plane, who throws around blasts of negative energy and can inflict negative levels, can do nothing with undead beyond heal them or nuke them with the other half of the element. It just feels odd. If void kineticists treated undead like other elements treat elementals, being able to disrupt them or generate them with various talents, it would be a cool, flavorful addition to the element that I'm a little surprised isn't there.
Or I would be, but word count is a thing.
(Void): the ability to change a target's subjective gravity would be cool. Possibly a talent chain starting with a climb speed (sharable to others for burn), ending with a blast infusion akin to Foe Throw. We're already tossing around micro singularities, reducing our gear's weight, and (eventually) reversing gravity, being able to change the direction of gravity for ourselves to "where the soles of my feet are pointing" would be a thematically appropriate and useful ability.
(Also Void): It feels strange that a class that manipulates negative energy has virtually no interaction with undead. Something like being able to rebuke/command or disrupt undead would be good. Alternately, a way to reduce the efficacy of healing/positive energy (channeling) in an area. Maybe a way to raise a single undead minion (with a burn cost), with possibly more servants for accepting burn. Stick an HD cap on it equal to 2* Kineticist level or something. Really, just anything to counteract the whole "I toss negative energy around like candy, but it doesn't do anything to undead and I can't do anything necromantic other than level drain, eventually."
Suggestions based on my recent delving into the Void Kineticist for a home game character.
That's actually the beauty of firing alchemical weaponry: you don't HAVE to do so when you run across those critters that resist/are immune. It's more gold efficient, though not more feat efficient.
On the subject of debuffing: Ghast Retch Flasks are a thing that exists and are splash weapons...
Sap adept line with unarmed strikes has a place in my heart personally.
Nothing quite like putting out 7d6+10 nonlethal damage at level 5 on the charge...
Without Power Attack.
Urban Bloodrager: I'll likely end up taking this because it doesn't require non lawful, letting me then grab level(s) in Unchained Monk for the superior flurry (over Snakebite Striker Brawler) and possibly Evasion if I go more than 1 level in. Thanks for the headsup, I need to read that Heroes of the Streets book more...
Unarmed Fighter: Snakebite Striker Brawler gave me most of what Unarmed Fighter would, granting 1d6 sneak, 1d6 unarmed damage and IUS, brawler's cunning should you desire feats that require Int 13. Otherwise I'd dip Unchained Monk for flurry, if your alignment allows.
Davor just described my PFS rogue.
Crafted =1/3 of market price. If I'm remembering right, Artokus Fire is 100gp regular, so 33g 3s 3c crafted.
I'm not clear on how Kirth was attacking your person, can you elaborate further?
Kirth Gersen wrote:
2. Ah, okay, you're one of those "you should totally punish people for flavor because it makes them better role-players" types.
Is quite clearly addressing the argumenter and not the argument, and given the phrasing of said statement, is pretty abrasive.
More importantly: Slipslinger Style's follow up feats look really good if you're able to craft Artokus' Fire. 33gp to add 2d6 fire damage to your sling attacks is pretty awesome. Consider that a flaming weapon provides half the benefit and costs (at minimum investment) almost 200x as much... I'm sure there's a PFS build in here where we make some unholy conglomeration of investigator/alchemist, Savage Technologist (STR/DEX rage) and Weapon Master Fighter (for feats, BAB, and not taking Weapon Focus.)
Texas Snyper wrote:
Not for a Chaokineticist! Mwahahahahaha!
Now to wait for a chance to build one of these for a game...