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316 posts. Alias of Ryzouken.


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I built something on similar lines, but settled on a Titan Mauler Barbarian as I wanted to shoehorn in other classes before Dragon Disciple. Specifically, I took Archaeologist Bard (with Fate's Favored) and Lore Warden Fighter for a bonus feat and Combat Expertise without 13 Int. DD progression advances Bard casting.

You could do similar by trading the Titan Mauler levels for Phalanx Soldier levels and keeping two levels in Archaeologist Bard for spells, their luck ability, and skill points. You wouldn't get Rage, but also wouldn't take a -2 to hit when one handing the polearm.

In the long run, I'm questioning whether you'd want more than just 4 levels in Dragon Disciple. Those levels get you +3 to natural armor, +4 to strength, and some nice additional benefits while accepting only one drop to Base Attack and spellcasting. Afterward you could easily go back into either of your base classes or look into a different PrC. Continuing on in DD gets you Con, which is nice, and some ancillary benefits, but aside from the wings at character level 13, PrC level 8... it's pretty meh.

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N N 959 wrote:

I'm actually just matching the tone that seems to have been directed against me when I disagreed with those here: Let's look at the inflammatory and baiting remarks by others.

kinevon wrote:
So far, you seem to be the only person who has a problem understanding that the rules work as written
Jeff Merola wrote:


If by "everyone" you mean "N N 959" then yes, you are correct.
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I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.
Nefreet wrote:
This really isn't unclear, and I suggest you reconsider your position.
Ascalaphus wrote:
Also, none of the things you mentioned is actually a feat.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.

My initial question and response that this should not work was neither inflammatory not directed at any individual. Nor was I trying to dictate to others, but simply expressing how I would rule. I'd much rather a good faith friendly discussion, but I have no problem fighting fire with fire. If others want to leave out the snide comments and innuendos, I'm happy to discuss it. Otherwise, I leave everyone to their own judgment.

Those posts questioned your understanding of the issue, and urged you to reconsider your stance. Your post attacked the character of those who oppose you. Do you see how the two are different?

The issue we have with how you would rule the issue, aside from how you've chosen to express your argument, is that you intend to rule this way in organized play. This causes an issue, because it is possible that a player could show up to your table with something the overwhelming majority of the OP Campaign has no trouble allowing, only to be denied. This creates conflict and a negative play experience.

As far as Dye Arrows and Explosive Missile in combination: Explosive Missile checks for three conditions when used:
The item must be a piece of ammunition (non two handed firearm)
You must be proficient in the weapon you're using
The projectile must hit its target.
If all three are satisfied, Explosive Missile delivers its payload in addition to the ammunition's payload. In the case of a Dye Arrow, the payload is not damage, but dye.
This is simple, logical, and clear.

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N N 959 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.

It's 100% clear that this is rules lawyering. The EM description says the attack does "normal damage" which which means they weren't contemplating simply touching the target with something. Apparently I'm the only one in this discussion who has enough integrity to acknowledge that this is bogus and an exploit. Everyone else is simply deluding themselves and looking the other way trying to pretend there's nothing to see here.

You know what? Do whatever you want.

You're getting pretty insulting here, insinuating the people who disagree with you have little integrity, are deluded, or are being disingenuous. I recommend taking a step back and re-examining the situation with a clear, calm head.

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I'm also pretty sure Liberty's Edge faction characters would frown on buying 5th level clerics... hehehe

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Drogon wrote:

Nope. Different times. Different dates. Different locations. No mixing.

I'll highlight that part of my last post. d-:

This accurately reflects my local scene, except we don't divide by venue fully. One venue has become defacto core, but our primary venue mixes the two, albeit on different date/times.

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I suppose I should note that my standard pfs characters are pretty optimized, my most recent being a weird conglomeration of Barbarian, Archaeologist Bard, Lore Warden Fighter, and Dragon Disciple. The reduction of options is neither a pro or a con for CORE to me, it's Pathfinder, so I'll play.

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I play CORE because it's Pathfinder. I like playing Pathfinder, so I look for opportunities to play it. My CORE characters currently are a Druid 2, a Fighter 2 (archery focused), a cleric 1 (first pfs dwarf for me!), and a bard 1 focused on smacking dudes in their faces.


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I theorize dragons hoard treasure to attract adventurous idiots to their lairs.

It's like the draconic equivalent of ordering a pizza, except the pizza tries to kill you, providing entertainment AND a meal! Double win!


My PFS tengu gunslinger ended up a warpriest/savage technologist/gunslinger. Dex rage, firearms training, Wis synergy with Warpriest, swift action Divine Favor... eventually grabbed improved snap shot and... yeah. Rage, fervor for favor, unload with musket, snap shot survivors as they approach. Kinda gross. Better Will save too...

Works almost as well as a bolt ace, but cycling out of musket master meant losing the snap shot line because rapid reload is a thing.


Errant Mercenary wrote:

Example. With 10 ft Reach you hit. They 5ft step and full attack you.

With 10ft Reach and Lunge, you hit from 15ft. They need to move 10ft, cant full attack you, and provoke an AOO for moving in.

Bolded added. Lunge gives tactical benefits. It's worth a feat if you've got reach.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Haberd: Brace, Trip, Slashing, and Piercing, a veritable Swiss Army Knife.

Minor nitpick: Halberds aren't reach weapons.

For reach, you're looking at something like a Bardiche for brace or a Guisarme for trip.

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ARGH! wrote:
The sorcerer, cleric, druid, and bard get no expanded spell access.

Not true

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Exguardi wrote:
It's still not a character a monstrous "minmaxer" would bring to the table

I really wish people would refrain from dehumanizing others over a difference in how a game is enjoyed...


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Everything you need to build a good druid is in these guides


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*reads OP's premise*
Nope.


I've been toying with the idea of making a fighter/familiar duo that abuses Outflank and Butterfly's Sting. Fighter uses a keen 18-20 weapon, triggering the combo, then the pair pass swings back and forth until they run out of Opp Attacks or the target dies. It's a four feat investment, but if your chicken maintains decent dex, it might be adaptable to your MBC


My Bardbarian Dragon Disciple should do about that much on average at about that level in three (two base plus haste) swings so... yeah, sounds about right.

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Nili'Merithas wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:


My dwarf's a cleric.

I also have a human druid with velociraptor pet and a half elven monk focused on quarterstaff flurries with Shillelagh wand and maxed UMD.

It's a winning combination for getting started as a Pathfinder!

Not going to lie, I believe I got the idea from one of your posts. Looks gross, can't wait to try it.

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Jiggy wrote:

Oh! Maybe I could make a quarterstaff-wielding TWF paladin... Maybe into Dragon Disciple later? Hrm...

EDIT: Or maybe a dwarven druid, to be the only not-a-Gimli-clone in the entire Core Campaign.

My dwarf's a cleric.

I also have a human druid with velociraptor pet and a half elven monk focused on quarterstaff flurries with Shillelagh wand and maxed UMD.

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Undone wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
No more Emergency Force Sphere. Rot in pit you unnecessary piece of rules bloat. You are the worst designed spell in all of PF, and that's an accomplishment. Arcane casters DO NOT need a get out of jail free as an immediate action.
I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over blood money and simulacrum creating magic bane bandersnaches, demiliches, and mini Cthulhu's to ride to the tune of my neighbor totoro.
Simulacrum and limited wish are still legal.

Restricted to Seeker level PCs due to being 7+ level spells, ne?


Eigengrau wrote:
Check out Thunder & Fang feat for your build.

Not really grasping the core campaign bit there, eh? :)

But yeah, two handing better than two weaponing.

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Imbicatus wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:


Choice of domain is curious, dependent of what you intend to do with your casting. I like the Travel domain, since short range teleporting isn't in the druid spell set, and a mobile warrior is a winning one.

Travel isn't a legal domain for the druid. Core druid is limited to Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather.

Very true. A fact I only recently learned and that has not, it appears, sunk in.

I prefer the animal companion option in 90+% of cases.

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Caster druid: probably the domain.
Fighty druid: probably the companion.

Choice of companion, for me, boiled down to big cat, wolf or velociraptor. I went with the latter since my last two animal companion characters went with the former two. Lost a little dpr, gained hp and speed.

Choice of domain is curious, dependent of what you intend to do with your casting. I like the Travel domain, since short range teleporting isn't in the druid spell set, and a mobile warrior is a winning one.


Bear in mind the touch ac thing is only in first range increment and that pistols are 10ft range. If it's a musket, it is at best a move action to reload until level 3, at which point it can be a free with cartridges. Also, each shot can be pretty expensive. As far as damage goes, 1d12 with no bonus at low level isn't all that good. He'll get dex at 5th and deadly aim, but this isn't more than a similarly built archer or two hander can do, the latter with paying per swing and the former out to a hundred feet or more.

Having had a gunslinger in a Legacy of Fire AP run, don't worry too much. Some fights he'll wreck face, some he'll spend drooling on the floor to a blown fort or will save. If you really need to throttle his output, removing alchemical cartridges might be an avenue to explore.


Buri Reborn wrote:
Gnaw on 0 level wands. At only 375 gp, it's extremely nice to have 50 points in your pocket when you need them.

Does not work.

Consume Magic Item gives Spell Level /2 points. You get nothing for spells of 0th or 1st level. This is called out specifically in the exploit.


Whoops.
Why did I think Clairvoyance/Clairaudience was 2nd level? Blerg.
Yeah, Tengu or witch.


Scryer subschool gives Clairvoyance/Clairaudience SLA which satisfies the arcane 2 requirement. Divine requirement is slightly more challenging, but Trickery domain qualifies. Thus, a Cleric 1, Wizard 1, XYZ 1 qualifies for MT at 4, with appropriate selections and is the traditional early entry without using an SLA race.

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Walter Sheppard wrote:


I think that you're forgetting about one of the races. Probably halflings. Everyone forgets about halflings.

Nah, it was one of those other ones that start with a g.

Bloody things are lawn ornaments, not people... *grumbles*
Nonetheless, I stand corrected. 7 core races. If you must play one of those... things.

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Tsriel wrote:
I got an aasimar that I could branch into being an eldritch knight. Other options include an arcane archer, cleric, or wizard.

Any race boons from the existing campaign cannot, as i understand it, be used in the core campaign. Further, if you have a non core chronicle applied (so as to grandfather from when aasimar was a legal race option), that character cannot be a core character. Given this, I do not believe it is possible to play any race other than the core 6 at this time.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

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Halfling Cleric...
I can make that work...


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Yes


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I feel like an utter idiot for not realizing this given the multiple swashbucklers and animal companions I've been playing and building.

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As a switch hitter, I imagine you're going to want to hit incorporeal, so that means a magic melee and either magic bow or ghost touch weapon blanches for your arrows. After that, a cloak of resistance 1 should take priority, leaving you with either 2.4k or 600 or so. Take Nefreet's suggested items and maybe some acid flasks or low level potions to round out your options. If you went blanches and thus have 2k gold, consider making your armor magic and ferret away the extra 1k for future upgrades or raise deads.


Bad news: that evangelist trick don't work by RAW.

Evangelist's Align Class ability states the aligned class must be taken before entering the Evangelist prestige class.

You can do xyz4 AT1 Evangelist10 aligning AT, but not xyz3 Ev1 AT1 Ev+9 aligning AT because you entered EV before entering AT.


Its buried in the thread discussing half elf and half orcs and their access to human (and elf and orc respectively) options. While you can raise druid level to 150% of normal rate, you are capped in AC HD to your character HD+1. This results in roughly a 133% rate of progression.


Raise int by 1 at first opportunity. This opens up new and exciting feat options. My pfs Lunar Oracle Aasimar did this with her tiger:

Narrow Frame (Animal Archive)
Power Attack
Improved Unarmed Strike (after raising int to 3)
Dragon Style (yes, my large tiger WILL charge through allies and terrain)
Feral Combat Training (for picky gms. Expendable feat)

That yields a monstrous pounce machine that nuked all kinds of stuff. Then take Celestial Servant (Advnced Race Guide) on your oracle to grant the cat smite and defenses. Also pick up Battle Cry for a swift action morale booster and save rerolls, and an amulet of mighty fists +1 so cat can hit incorporeal. I generally spent my 1st combat round casting a piercing bulls strength (SR cuts both ways, thus piercing), and giving a battle cry before unleashing the fuzzy death machine.


Go read Fervor. I'll wait.
...
Back? Yeah, that's like, 60 percent or more of what makes warpriest cool.
Now go read Sacred Fist, followed by Pummeling Charge.
...
That's another 30 percent or so. The rest is the whole possibility of playing a divine beatstick that ain't a cleric, paladin, inquisitor, oracle, druid, or ranger. Hunters, though, are similarly pretty.
...
I've also heard theoretical builds focusing on making stuff like blowguns and shuriken not suck, but my dice have skewed toward Sacred Fist shenanigans, so YMMV.

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I kinda want to write up a formalized speed running scoring category. Something that standardizes the category. I imagine it'd be something akin to:

You get points for difficulty, speed, and execution.

Difficulty would be based on party make up with bonus points available for doing stupid things like 3-manning it and leaving the pregen back at base camp to guard the beer.

Speed would be a toughie. You could just tally based on run time length, but that would punish people for making the game fun with off the wall characters and silly NPC chatter. Probably better to tally based on rounds or turns taken. Maybe add a bonus for run time length, maybe not. Maybe run time length just gets recorded for posterity and braggin rights.

Execution, I envision, would be an interesting 'forked' category. Obviously you get significantly dinged if your party fails to obtain both prestige in your speed run, but I could envision this category being either you get points for each success condition you meet, OR you get points for having achieved the absolute barest minimum required to squeak through with both prestige. This turns into a question of which way does your team want to attempt the challenge? Do you go full bore, hoping to get the maximum possible by hitting all the success conditions, or do you play the comedy of errors team that fights the <REDACTED> before entering the caves instead of after, and generally makes a massive mess of the mission but somehow earns both prestige in the end? Probably give bonus points for earning both boons as well.

It would be interesting to do this with a bunch of the replayables. Kinda create a "Speedrunners League" with various groups of like minded competitors striving to see who can do it the best, the fastest. Could breathe new life into some of the stale scenarios. And it's not like this is something crazy or new, it exists in video game country, and could totally be instituted in RPG land too, provided a good set of rules gets figured out.


Upgrade to a mythril pan when you get the scratch together. Non stick surface! Very important.


Burning Infusion: I apologize in advance if this has been brought up or if it's something I just missed, but I did not see any mention of how one puts oneself out. They get the initial reflex save against ignition, and they then burn until they put themselves out... but what type of action is that, does it require a roll, does it provoke AoO's? Our group ad lib'd it with the rules from Alchemist Fire, but it would be good to have a couple lines about how one puts oneself out.

General impressions: I played a pyrokineticist 1 (could ya tell?) in a PFS scenario and had quite a bit of fun with it. Not having Precise Shot made things incredibly difficult, as I was looking at a -8 to -12 to hit due to cover and melee penalties. I basically only hit things when I had a clear line, on a strong roll. Had I been using a non touch attack, I would have been utterly useless. My character was built with 16 dex, no point blank shot.

The scenario included a stationary mass-of-hp type encounter, which let my character shine as we sat back and I just repeatedly sunk Burning Infusion Pyroblasts into it round after round until it burned away. Without the infinite supply of firepower the Kineticist class provided, this would have actually been challenging, but being able to sit at 30' and plug away rendered the threat moot. I suspect this was an edge case, as it is exceedingly rare one encounters a foe one can reliably 'kite' let alone a stationary one.

Random Musings: I suspect a more melee oriented type of character with the Kinetic Blade talent would be a more functional level 1 character. This is particularly true if Weapon Finesse works in conjunction with Kinetic Blade, which I suspect it should. Does it? A character built with 18 Dex and Con (under 20 point buy, racial included), with Weapon Finesse and a KT Blade looks more effective on paper than the ranged character I put together (Go figure, Precise Shot matters.)


Zen Archer Monk.

Your character's father taught you archery, but where did he learn his art from? No reason he or his father before him weren't taught in a monastery that has since been abandoned resulting in you being taught by him directly rather than by the monastic brotherhood.

Mechanically, ZAM is a pretty solid class, boasting strong defenses, potent offense, and a nice suite of mobility enhancement for when you need to reposition, not that you need to once you've hit level 3. It'd also be interesting to see how high you can crank your saving throws, combining the monk's strong saves with the half orc's sacred tattoo and the Fate's Favored trait. That's +4 to all saves before stat modifiers at level 1. Figure on 14's or so in your relevant stats and that's +6 to all, with strong scaling as you level. If you can stomach the dump stats, you could possibly eke out something like:
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 16 Cha 7
with the half orc bonus applied to Wis to bring it to 18. Early on you might have a bit of struggle hitting things, but once your Wis to hit activates, you should be golden, and you'll have strong saving throws.

Just my two zeni.


I wouldn't say it's useless per se. I mean, eventually you can start Spellstriking Enervation with Close Range if you take Spell Blending to get it on your list.


Crap. That... is really annoying. Also, sorry I mislead ya on that. Now I need to figure out what my magus is going to use Close Range for... Guess I'll be swapping Acid Splash over to Ray of Frost for starters...

As to the issue with Opportune Parry and Riposte vis a vis Swift action economy: don't riposte. You're really taking the deed for access to the parries, which eat up your Attacks of Opportunity, not your Immediate Actions. The riposte, while nice, isn't a huge benefit because your damage relies heavily on spellstrikes.


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I recommend taking Battle Cry instead of either of those options.


I would definitely do the feat unless you have a specific reason to take the class level (like I did.) I would also find room for Extra Panache. With your Cha being what it is, you'd have 3 parries at the start of the day and could go up to 5 total. You'd miss out on Derring-do, and you'd be locked out of the Precise Strike deed, but I'm thinking that if there's a thing magi don't need, it's more damage. Better to augment your defensive capabilities, imo.


Oh good, they got around to updating the Additional Resources page!

The arcana isn't a bad idea, but taking the Amateur Swashbuckler feat gives you a pool separate from your Eldritch Pool to power your parries. A pool that you can recover points in over the course of adventuring. Given the amount of parrying one typically does, I suspect you'd end up resource starved if you just take the arcana.


I went a different path for mine. Essentially, I wanted to avoid being yet another scimitar wielding magus, so I went Half Elf (Human was another option) for katana proficiency, took a level in Swashbuckler, and picked up Slashing Grace at 3. It was utter dreck at level 1 and 2, but due to having played through two scenarios and a sanctioned module level on a different build, getting to 3 (where the build snaps together) was a relatively simple matter of surviving a single scenario in which I spammed Snowball and Acid Splash.

After the critical opening 3 levels, I opted to advance my Swashbuckler abilities with Extra Panache and Combat Reflexes. I took Close Range as my first arcana for the ability to shorten up my Snowballs for combination with Spellstrike and Spell Combat. Being able to toggle between electricity and cold damage as needed (casting either Snowball or Shocking Grasp) has been fairly nice.

An entire level of Swashbuckler might not be needed in your build, but taking Amateur Swashbuckler for the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed would give you a pretty effective defensive ability and dovetails nicely with your high Cha. I'm not big on familiars, but your mileage may vary.

Lunge is a really nice feat to consider shoehorning in somewhere (late, 9th level or later). I don't recommend stacking Initiative as you have here. Doing so means party buffers go after you, so if you move out, you're going to be excluded from all those tasty buffs. You mitigate this somewhat with your auto self buffs, but being able to glean Haste before activating your eldritch focus lets you grab Displacement with less mental turmoil. I recognize why you did it (gotta get in the caster's face before they cast!) but do recognize it is a double edged sword, so to speak, for characters that aren't casting party buffs or ending the encounter in a single spell.

My build:
Swashbuckler 1 : Weapon Focus and Weapon Proficiency (Ancestral Arms racial trait or bonus human feat)
Magus 1
Magus 2 : Slashing Grace
Magus 3 : Close Range arcana
Magus 4 : Extra Panache
Magus 5 : Combat Reflexes
Magus 6 : Power Attack, Arcane Accuracy arcana
Magus 7
Magus 8 : Lunge
Magus the rest of the way.


I think you still need to have the alchemical item in hand. Happily, the action economy issue vanishes when you hit 6 in Grenadier, so for my simple Bolt Ace 1, Grenadier 11 PFS build, it's no big deal. Just means I add alchemical damage every other round instead of every round until level 7, where I start Alchemical Weaponing as a swift action instead of a move.


Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:

I don't believe quickdraw allows you to draw an alchemical weapon as a free action.

Quickdraw says "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat"

You are, of course, absolutely correct. I really should've checked the feat before I posted. Blerg.

*eyes his grandfathered level 1 tiefling*


You are incorrect. Free Actions take no time and as many can be taken as the GM permits. There is no mechanical restriction to the number of free actions one gets.

Swift actions, however, you only get one of.

PRD wrote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

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