Rynnik's page

(IMO) There are 2 basic problems that many FFA-PvP games fall into....

Great post and I agree with the basic premise of everything you say, GrumpyMel.

Anyone that starts in with a "Hur, U suk, go play WOW noob because I just pwned you." comment (IMO) has missed the ENTIRE POINT behind FRPG's, GAMING in general and competition in games....and I would hope the community displays ZERO tolerance for such attitudes.

Some perfectly respectable gamers have been pretty thoroughly indoctrinated by other gaming communities that this is in fact that way to act and behave in games. While I don't personally agree with it, it is sort of a sad fact. I actually hope that a future Pathfinder Online community has a great deal of tolerance for the portrayed attitude.

By taking the moral highground there is a chance to influence that other player in a positive way and bring them in (socially engineer if you will) to the community it seems like the majority of the folks on this forum want to build, and which I certainly want to play an MMO in. The risk is that if you don't take the highground and respond overwhelmingly negatively to a player because you are upset that you died or were subjected to pvp when you didn't want to be then you could end up part of the social problem rather then the solution.

I think Waruko said it well that 'carebears' who are willing to accept the challenges of an open PvP game should and will be welcomed with open arms. Anti-pvpers who rage about griefing anytime they are legitimately killed in game however are as much part of the problem as actual griefers themselves, in my opinion.

First post time, after hearing about Pathfinder Online and reading through the blogs and a few of these threads. I am currently playing EVE and Darkfall and I have played quite a few themepark titles as well in the last 10 years.

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I personally hope that this game will actually be able to properly leverage the third point Ryan Dancey mentioned in his original post here. Namely:

3: Social Engineering - the humans who play within the game can act to enforce certain norms of behavior by providing and withholding access to shared community resources in response to character behavior.

Shared community resources is the key to that phrase in my opinion. Pathfinder needs to have emphasis and reward based on social behaviours in order to curb the anti-social ones. I am really hoping killers NEED the resources and outputs of crafters and gatherers, and those folks need the protection of killers. If the same skill set of 'killing stuff' is viable for PvP and can resource a character from killing things in a PvE context then I don't think it will work out. MMO's often but should not have 'guilds' or 'corporations' of people who enjoy doing the same in game activity - I believe this is poor design and a problem in many current games. I really hope there is a pressure to form groups of people who work together while enjoying DIFFERENT parts of the game.

Rather then some of the concerns and whines about pvp in this thread I hope everyone considers embracing pvp within some context. What I am trying to say is that instead of:

Seasoned PvE Explorer gets ganked by new griefer.

Griefer says, "Hur, U suk, go play WOW noob because I just pwned you."

Carebear says, "You will be sorry because I am from an awesome guild that will hunt you/GMs are going to ban you/an invincible NPC paladin has been dispatched and is going to kill you."

Griefer, "Cry moar carebear".

Carebear, "Whaaaaa, I am going to unsub."

I hope to see:

Seasoned PvE Explorer gets killed by a pvper new to the game.

PvPer says, "Hur, U suk, go play WOW noob because I just pwned you."

Pathfinder Vet says, "That was an impressive kill. You know my guild, red dagger industries, is really in need of killers right now. We are in a forever war with the Unholy Empire and they are driving us back. Someone like you would be a great addition."

PvPer, "Huh, what, seriously?"

Pathfinder Vet, "Yah! The fights will be a lot tougher then killing me but there will be lots of them. In exchange for killing our enemies we will give you some of the best equipment in game and can teach a few tips and tricks."

PvPer, "That sounds pretty good actually. I was really hoping to get some good stuff off your corpse, I really don't want to have to grind mobs for gear."

Pathfinder Vet, "Well you are welcome to the set of farming gear I had on me, but we can do better then that. I hope you take my offer seriously though, I can speak up for you and it shouldn't be hard to get you a trial slot with us. Think about it anyways."

PvPer, "I will definitely think about it! This pathfinder game is really awesome."

PvPer goes and joins the Unholy Empire because they provide better gear and free beer and ends up killing the carebear Pathfinder Vet over and over in the future. :D

What I am trying to say with that little narrative is that I personally think PvP needs to be an accepted part of the game on every level for everyone. You don't need to LIKE it but you have to accept, leverage and understand it.

This comes at a cost of course and the consequence is that people who want to play Pathfinder Online solo and casual will not like this game. Solo should be a hard mode option for the hardcore few. Having to do everything yourself should be next to impossible and that type of gameplay should be very challenging and risky. There isn't really a way to cater to a risk adverse explorer who wants to do their own thing in the Pathfinder Online world not dealing with negative player interaction without completely compromising the pressures that will cause people to band together.

The last issue of course is the blobbing concern. If people working together is synergistic and productive then more is always better and in a very short time there will only be a few huge entities and this is a balance issue the developers will have to put a lot of thought into combating. Beyond a certain point additional people in an organization will have to 'cost' more (in some fashion) then any possible gain could be. Not an easy challenge to address.