No I bring up prostitution next to slavery because they're two angles which players have a history of "being creepy" about.
And lets not delude ourselves into thinking that the not being creepy people aren't outnumbered by makes it creepy for at least one person at the table by a factor of 10 or more.
You have to realize that its not just a matter of "everyone at the table" is comfortable with this. Its people talking about their campaigns on a crowded bus (my recent experience and reason #1 I don't advertise that I play TTRPG's anymore) or things overheard in semi-public spaces. Players get excited, talk about the games they're enjoying too loudly, and when that material is involved it creeps the people around them out.
So...i get that these are very loose roles, but i kind of see them as the arcane "skill" class
Thinking of the dynamic of (fighter mage cleric thief) Arcane has Magus, Alchemist, Sorceror, Wizard.
And then Martials sit sadly, only able to fill two of the roles with multiple class types.
wouldn't be the first time something failed as a mechanic. As bent out of shape as people were about "heavy armor tank" being alignment restricted (and it turns out it wont be), "able to resist spells well" isn't going to be well received if its gated behind superstition barbarian. Which means if its a "wide margin" its going to trivialize spellcasting enemies more than is probably reasonable in a game.
Nice goalpost shift, "non evil"
Of the 44 mentioned orc and halforc npc's, 4 are non evil.
of those 4 non evil ones there is a single good orc, that became good because of the divine intervention of a deity. I'm sorry but plaguing someone with visions of doom is divine intervention, not "a conversation"
The other three are CN. One step away from the standard racial alignment. One a warpriest of gorum. Another a CN druid of a CE god. and the third just a generic CN ranger.
So, if we take this framework as representative. At best you've got 2% good orcs, assuming sarenrae is sending lots of visions of doom out there. and another 6% that sit one step away at CN.
I argue that these are not representative samples, and that things like CG orcs are highlighted precisely because a splatbook exists to highlight the strange and rare in an area. But even if they were, it still doesn't rise to the level of more than exception that proves the rule.
Ok, start showing rather than just telling, because your CG warpriest of sarenrae changed her ways after being "plagued with dreams of a flaming angel telling her that her people would face extinction if they did not choose a new path" The succubus was a direct intervention of Desna.
The AP wrote:
Arueshalae first came to the Worldwound in 4636 AR. One fateful night after she'd seduced a priestess ofDesna and drained her nearly to death, on a whim she tried an experiment. Since outsiders don't need to sleep, they don't normally dream. Out of curiosity, she stole into the thoughts ofher dying victim using detect thou!Jhts while the woman lay sleeping, only to be pulled into the Dimension of Dreams. When the priestess died, Arueshalae found herself somehow trapped, but she hadn't gone unnoticed. In daring to allow herself to dream, Arueshalae gained Desna's attention. She had already observed the succubus's murder of one of her priests, but perhaps having learned a bit of forgiveness from her own divine ally Sarenrae, Desna did not smite Arueshalae. Instead, she reached into Arueshalae's soul and quickened her larval core. Memories of her mortal life flooded back at once, memories of dreams that never came true. Desna whispered in her ear: "Even demons can dream."
Desna literally meddled with her demonic makeup to allow her to not be CE.
If i go dig up the redemption engine am i going to find that dvil was also the result of some deus ex machina conveniently omitted?
Oh good, more of Ryan dismissing anything that contradicts his grognard biases.
I'm not dismissing it, they exist, I'm dismissive of the idea that the one or two exceptions ever printed form some trend.
Both that tribe and the non evil succubus are literal deus ex machina. These are things that exist literally because a god came down and meddled. This is why they are exceptions that prove the rule. It requires deific intervention.
Correlation isn't Causation but there's a reason the best selling rpgs are dominated by ones that have an alignment system. I suspect the subset of players who are interested in moral naval gazing in a grey world of perhaps antiheros is pretty small.
Caught in a Landslide wrote:
can someone please tell me how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie roll pop!!?!?!
On Topic again: Maybe they intended it to be a purely internal source, but beliefs don't spring out of nothing, you don't will yourself cursed, and an exotic heritage doesn't stem from inside you. A superstition wins the internal source but 1/4 is a pretty miss ratio for describing internal sources.
So if 3/4 of your supposedly internal examples have to come from outside you, and the anathema cant just be ignored which is more likely? A bunch of things that indicate an external source are actually coming from your characters own natural powers, or an internal source is a bad description for the way they come about?
Milo v3 wrote:
The ability to choose what KIND of external thing it is does not suddenly make it an internal thing. He's basically saying you can pick the flavor, like your rage being a curse inflicted by x totem, or a tribal belief, etc etc.
I'm just a little stunned at the people up in arms that powers occasionally come with conditions. Its a long time fantasy trope, it fits the class. Being unable to refuse a challenge is a trope back to ancient greece if not babylon and fantasy rpgs live and breathe off referencing tropes.
Saint Evil wrote:
Your character doesn't have to LIKE it. Its the entry cost for the totem to want to support you.
It doesn't dictate anything for personality, just behavior.
A balanced party gives every party member the chance to shine and have their niche that they are "best" at. That's the non mechanical reason to want balanced parties. It also reduces competition for loot. My gm tends to be very by the book about whether or not a given magic item is available in a town and there are markedly fewer metropolis' that have all cheap items than you'd think.
Honestly thats why i preferred UBarb. The stances seeming more fighter than barbarian aside its a more versatile class as far as fighting style and even theme. You can go dex build without taking a rage nerf, Its strictly superior for TWF (frenzybarb ftw) which is a thing that kind of blows me away that people weren't more into as barb was the only real martial with pounce. Its only big greatweapon that takes much of a hit and its not THAT big of a hit given how prone barbs are to dramatic overkill anyway.
Given that most of his feats involve either tricking, lying, or defeating people with physical prowess, probably fighter/rogue.
Its just easy for people to go MONK! cause martial arts, forgetting that it isn't just a monk thing in the culture that envisioned sun wukong.
The variables involved in "RAG" are too widespread and scattered to warrant legitimate conversation unless its about a very specific item, and even then its a discussion surrounding 1 table.
With PF2 being golarion centric the only thing that really matters is "RAP". Tables have been modifying setting and rules since TTRPG's first came out. Pathfinder isn't going to be the next generic system and people are going to have to continue to modify it to fit what they enjoy.
To be frank, any rule that makes it impossible to build Sun Wukong as a Monk is a failed rule.
Sun Wukong is a supernatural being and his legends are based on him being a supernaturally strong and quick warrior. The fact that he used a staff and martial arts does not a monk make. Most of his supernatural abilities stem from stealing things he had no right to.
Barbarians did damage better than paladins. They didnt do survivability, or rando utility anywhere near as good.
This is a profound misrepresentation of these sources. The chelaxian norbleman is an evil lord using a personal goblin tribe as a whip to hunt down escaped slaves. The goblin pirates are more "merciful" unless they're hungry, and their mercy stems from cowardace, not goodwill. Magnimar holds the tribes under their feet because its too much trouble and too dangerous to enter small caverns under the city to root out god knows how many goblins. Katapesh is a borderline evil city where slaving and drug sales are business as usual and absalom is the largest city in the inner sea.
Those only work as examples if you remove literally all context surrounding them.
This thread is why i loathe the "open alignment" arguments. Players always latch on to the exceptions, even if that exception is literally the only documented case in the multiverse and wield it as though it had more weight than it actually does as an argument. You see it a ton with that one succubus from that one adventure path. Never mind that it took literal deific intervention, that she still registers as evil to detection and that its actually a ton of freaking work in AP to keep her from backsliding, the example is there ergo all demons aren't evil.
Non evil goblins in canon are like that, the exception, not the rule.
Yes, even if they're just buckets of feats one must assume they have level reqs on their feats as well.
Um. Im pretty sure they're putting archetypes in, they just havent been previewed/spoiled yet.
In fact the framework theyve shown for pf2.0 is even MORE archetype friendly, as "class feats" are likely gained at the same levels across classes, archetypes an be created that may be applied generally to multiple base classes.
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Dude you quoted out of context. That was in response to the "heros" of we be goblins. They're ALL NE and one specifically likes to torture small animals to death.
Rob Godfrey wrote:
Except that the CE anti-paladin code sums up to "be CE" It has VERY little in the way of restrictive behaviors by comparsion. Which is the problem generic Chaotic codes always sum up to "do what you would have based on your alignment anyway" The cavalier codes are all very specific things, a subset of a larger class, they don't fit for crap as a generic all X follow this code, and even then most of them aren't remotely near the behavior restrictions of a paladin code. They are not on the same level.
Rob Godfrey wrote:
Except you can't mandate CG and manage a behaviorally restrictive code that holds any meaning at all.
Because gods like iomedae torag, abadar et-al make sense for a heavily armored warrior with a mount of some kind, whereas dialing down the spellcasting is not really an in theme thing for nethys to do, nor is being heavily armored for cayden, or norgorber. While making their holy warriors archetypes of swashbuckler, rogue, bard, or in the case of nethys mage/sorceror/magus is a profoundly stronger fit thematically.
Also because no one seems able to come up with a chaotic or evil code that provides anything resembling a similar behavior restriction.
Plus its a good way to add content to a book about inner sea gods.
The issue is, imo, as a golarion centric rpg there's no reason for nethys and caiden, and irori, and rovagug to use even remotely similar base chassis for their holy warriors. The modularity of "class feats" lets each god have an archetype that slots onto 1 or 2 different classes and modify say, a rogue or alchemist, or monk into a holy warrior. Paladin, on its own can be a fine base chassis for gods like iomedae, sarenrae, torag, abadar and the like. It begins to stretch as a chassis for norgorber, or nethys, or rovagug.