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Pathfinder Society Member. 2,627 posts (2,724 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 5 Pathfinder Society characters. 3 aliases.


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Could a ranged Sap Master build deal out ridiculous amounts of damage using blunt arrows? It seems like it could, especially with an Unchained Rogue.

If you went the Shatter Defenses route though, how can you reliably make opponents Shaken? The normal routes (Enforcer, Cornugon Smash) don't work with ranged weapons. The Omen trait is the best I've found, but it only works once/day.

Potential build:
Human Rogue (Swashbuckler archetype with longbow proficiency)
1: Sap Adept, Bludgeoner
2: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) [through Weapon Training]
3: Point-Blank Shot
4: Dazzling Display [through Combat Trick]
5: Sap Master
6: Shatter Defenses [through Combat Trick]
7: Precise Shot
8: Intimidating Prowess [through Strong Impression]
9: Rapid Shot

Any other good ways to make opponents shaken? Any ways to strengthen the build, perhaps multiclassing to get the archery feats sooner?

If you value survivability, Mirror Image would be a classic. And at some point Greater Invisibility would be another.

To get your CL up, you could take Additional Traits and grab Magical Knack plus one more trait.

Bump! I'm moving to Rockville and I'd love to find a group.

Cha 12 and Cha 5 are more-or-less equivalent: both provide you 1 panache.

The FAQ is explicit - the modifier does not stack with itself, even if it's modifier + bonus.

For the same reason Irrepressible + Steadfast + Charmed Life doesn't give you 3xCha to your Will save, Divine Protection won't stack with Prophetic Armor, even though one replaces and one adds. (Believe me, I REALLY WANTED this to work and it just doesn't.)

Eh, that's what I meant but it's too early in the morning for me. I meant to say even, not odd. E.g., if you have 14 Con, taking 1 point of Con damage has no effect.

I would say apply the effects first, as you make the save after consumption, at which point you are already under the effects.

(And if you start with an odd even Con score, remember that still the Con damage doesn't have any effect unless you take at least 2 points of it.)

How about Order of the Staff Daring Champion/Kensai? You can use an estoc, and kill all the things.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

One addition to the mystic masher could be a dual cursed oracle for his fortune revelation when you need a self reroll. A minor change I admit and limited in use but could be a real life saver. There is also a human race feat chain for rerolls and bonuses in such cases. Add those together and you will not have the raw numbers of true masters of sunder but can definitely succeed at a key moment where dice will have screwed over his competition.

Finally I wouldn't take maneuver mastery until the third level. The modest +2 to sunder at level 2 compared to being without it isn't as big as other possibilities IMO. But it's not a big gain in either direction.

I like the dual-cursed idea, it adds versatility as well as power. (I still need to figure out if the Wrecker curse is worth it - it might be largely redundant with an adamantine weapon, and the -2 to hit is unfortunate. And I suppose it's all bad when making regular attacks, unless you face a lot of constructs.) For the other curse, I was thinking Tongues.

As for Maneuver Mastery, the main reason to take it at level 1 is to start using your FCBs to get 150% BAB ASAP. Taking it at level 3 would permanently set you back a +1, which isn't too terrible I guess but not ideal.

(preemptively, let me remind everyone that make whole does exist and so sundering generally should have a minimal effect on loot.)

This thread is to post your best ideas for how best to break your enemies' favorite toys. I'd love to see traits, feats, items, archetypes, etc. that are great for sundering, and even better if you have a complete build!

Here are four builds to start off (w/o gear due to time constraint for now.) *Asterisk represents a choice not related to sundering.

The Beast:
Barbarian (Breaker)
Half-Orc (Gatecrasher)
strength 18, dexterity 14, constitution 14, intelligence 10, wisdom 10, charisma 10
human FCBs: *Superstitious
1: Power Attack
2: *Superstitious
3: Improved Sunder
4: Strength Surge
5: Furious Focus
6: *Lesser Beast Totem
7: Greater Sunder
8: *Beast Totem
9: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (flambard)
10: *Greater Beast Totem

lvl5: sunder +20 (5 BAB, 6 raging Str, 2 Imp Sunder, 5 Strength Surge, 2 Gatecrasher), damage 24 (2d6 greatsword, 9 raging Str, 6 Power Attack, 2 Breaker)
lvl10: sunder +35/+17 (10 BAB, 7 raging Str, 4 Greater Sunder, 10 Strength Surge, 2 flambard, 2 Gatecrasher), damage 29.5 (1d10 flambard, 10 raging Str, 9 Power Attack, 5 Breaker)

The Mystic Masher:
Battle Oracle
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms (flambard))
strength 18, dexterity 12, constitution 12, intelligence 10, wisdom 8, charisma 15
elf FCBs: Maneuver Mastery
1: Power Attack, Maneuver Mastery
3: *Extra Revelation (Skill at Arms), Weapon Mastery (flambard)
5: Furious Focus
7: *Extra Revelation (Combat Healer), *War Sight
9: Undermining Exploit

lvl5: sunder +16 (7 BAB w/Maneuver Mastery+FCB, 4 Str, 2 Imp Sunder, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 flambard), damage 14.5 (1d10 flambard, 6 Str, 3 Power Attack)
lvl10: sunder +26/+19 (15 BAB w/Maneuver Mastery+FCB, 4 Str, 4 Greater Sunder, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 flambard), damage 17.5 (1d10 flambard, 6 Str, 6 Power Attack)
(note: this is w/o any buffs - Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Weapon of Awe etc. could boost this significantly)

The Professional:
Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter)
Half-Orc (Gatecrasher)
strength 18, dexterity 14, constitution 14, intelligence 10, wisdom 10, charisma 10
1: Power Attack, Improved Sunder
2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (flambard)
3: Weapon Focus (flambard)
4: Weapon Specialization (flambard)
5: Furious Focus
6: Greater Sunder
7: Grudge Fighter
8: Greater Weapon Focus (flambard)
9: *Improved Critical (flambard)
10: Sundering Strike

lvl5: sunder +18 (5 BAB, 4 Str, 2 Imp Sunder, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 flambard, 1 Weapon Training, 1 Two-Handed Fighter, 2 Gatecrasher), damage 21.5 (1d10 flambard, 6 Str, 6 Power Attack, 1 Weapon Training, 2 Weapon Specialization, 1 Two-Handed Fighter)
lvl10: sunder +30/+23 (10 BAB, 5 Str, 4 Greater Sunder, 2 Greater Weapon Focus, 2 flambard, 2 Weapon Training, 3 Two-Handed Fighter, 2 Gatecrasher), damage 28.5/31.5 (1d10 flambard, 7 Str, 9 Power Attack, 2 Weapon Training, 2 Weapon Specialization, 3 Two-Handed Fighter)

These could also dip one level into Order of the Hammer cavalier for an extra sunder attempt per round, unless the oracle wants to keep full casting.

I'm sure all of these could be improved - what have I missed?

aye, avr

FLite wrote:
With grabbing master, each maintain maintains on two foes, so with that and greater grapple, you can maintain on 4 foes per turn.

Grabbing Master would require multiclassing though (probably to MoMS 2,) as a single-classed witch can't meet the pre-reqs.

Meta: the original post has far too many questions to be a legitimate FAQ candidate. Let's find any points of contention first, then if we need to FAQ, do so on one or two clearly-expressed questions.

EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?

BAB +6 is irrelevant, it's a natural attack so you cannot get iteratives with it. The only way to attack with it more than once per round would be Haste (or AoOs.)

@Blake, I have a different reading of this:

when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent

I take "successfully grapples" to mean "makes a successful grapple check", rather than "initiates a grapple." So, I think maintaining a grapple would qualify for constrict damage if you use a swift. That's my interpretation, but I could be wrong.

Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair?

I don't think anything prevents you from grappling multiple targets.

Can I grab on an AoO?

Yes, it says you can grab whenever your hair strikes a foe.

So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? How would these mechanics work?

Yes, you could grapple up to 6 foes, but on your turn it would only be possible to maintain one of the grapples (or two with Greater Grapple.)

If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left?

Each grapple you maintain is its own separate move action. If you maintain two grapples, you do not have a standard action left.

With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? Constrict as swift action when maintaining the grapple, and the damage resulting as part of the two checks for maintaining, and using a standard action to attack the target?

This is less clear to me - the way I read it, you do not technically gain the Constrict quality (which allows you to damage on all successful grapple checks,) rather you gain a similar ability that requires a swift action each time you use it. So, you could do at most 3 instances of damage using Greater Grapple - damage as part of maintaining the grapple (move action,) constrict damage (swift action,) and either a normal attack or another damage as part of maintaining the grapple (standard action.)

You can't qualify for Cornugon Smash at level 5. Also, while I don't claim to be an expert on investigators, I can't help but think a Power Attacking investigator would have trouble hitting.

Three problems:

1) Allows a Will save.

2) Relies too much on getting a sneak attack.

3) Doesn't kick in until at least level 5.


Alexander S. Modeus wrote:
Oh. Don't forget that ther should not be any staircases, especially in the upper floors. Minions shouldn't be up ther anyways, and you DO have access to magical flight after all.


This should give some reference - timeline of the three tallest structures in the world. From 2500 BC (the Great Pyramid of Giza) to 1888 (the Washington Monument) the tallest structures in the world had remained in the range of 150-170 meters tall.

I am having a similar conundrum with a gnomish Daring Champion. At high levels, Dex-based is probably better, but it takes a while to ramp up. When you're starting at level 1, it's hard to make Dex-based work (without specific builds like an Inspired Blade.)

Taunt says:

You can demoralize opponents using Bluff rather than Intimidate (see the Intimidate skill description for details) and take no skill check penalty for being smaller than your target.

Cornugon Smash says:

When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.

When you use Cornugon Smash, can you use the Taunt feat to make the demoralize check using Bluff?

tonyz wrote:
And, third, there is a significant failure chance, so you may not find out anything. "Reply hazy, don't bother asking again." Don't be surprised if this happens occasionally (nearly 1/4 of the time for a 7th-level caster; 1/10th for even a 20th-level caster.)

Dragonbone Divination Sticks are a good investment if you are doing lots of divinations, as they'll cut (but not remove) that failure chance.

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You could also based it off Kowloon Walled City. Built as a tangle of unregulated dwellings and businesses, but functioning as a gigantic maze to any non-natives. Why it was abandoned is up to your creativity.

Malignant Manor wrote:
Evolutions that grant additional attacks or enhance existing attacks can be applied only to Medium or larger summoned creatures

Ah yes, so unfortunately the super lantern archons won't work... a shame, but the rest of them would still be legal.

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Riffing of quibblemuch, a paranoid tycoon/heir/aristocrat who built a trapped maze to keep out intruders.

You can use the Collyer brothers for inspiration as well.

Wikipedia wrote:
Police theorized that Langley was crawling through the tunnel to bring food to his paralyzed brother when he inadvertently tripped a booby trap he had created and was crushed by debris.

^ That should give you some good inspiration if you want to make it haunted as well.

You can banish them with Dispel Balance.

Life Oracle capstone.

Life Oracle Final Revelation wrote:
Upon reaching 20th level, you become a perfect channel for life energy. You become immune to bleed, death attacks, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea effects, negative levels, and sickened effects. Ability damage and drain cannot reduce you below 1 in any ability score. You automatically make saving throws against massive damage. When you are below 0 hit points, you do not die until your negative total is in excess of twice your Constitution score.

Some DPR numbers:

The wolf with claws does 233% the damage of a normal wolf (7.35/3.15)
The horse with bite does 311% the damage of a normal horse (7.35/2.36)

The aurochs with hooves and claws does 268% the damage of a normal aurochs (27.88/10.4)

The ankylosaurus with bite, claws, hooves, and improved damage does 301% the damage of a normal ankylosaurus (69.82/23.15)

(I should note that at level 9, doing ~70 DPR is not too far shy of what a well-built PC will do.)

A tyrannosaurus with improved damage, claws, hooves, tail slap, tentacle, tentacle does 300% the damage of a normal tyrannosaurus (131.76/44)

I ran DPR assuming AC = 14 + character level at which that spell becomes available.

I used the formula DPR = (chance to hit)*(damage)*(1+chance to crit).

When creature was larger than Huge, I used the listed damage for that attack type for a Huge creature instead of assuming a Gargantuan creature would increase the damage dice.

I used PFSRD to find Str and BAB for the creatures, but most of the attack bonuses and damages that were listed in the stat block didn't seem to add up, so I recalculated them.

I personally love Divination, but then, my GM is one who enjoys coming up with cool rhymes or cryptic riddles for us.

It's a good "tiebreaker" type of spell, when your party is having trouble making a decision. And it tends to steer things in the direction your deity wants things to go...


Based on the fluff, I'm guessing "encountered" means some kind of opposition - either social (e.g., harsh words exchanged), or combat.

But, if you fight two ogres in the same combat, do you get the bonus against the second one?

The feat Evolved Summon Monster seems crazy powerful. So much so, in fact, that if I ever took it in a real game I feel like I would have to exercise restraint not to break anything.

But, this is a forum, so let's break things!

Let's assume you take Augment Summoning and Spell Focus (conjuration) at level 1, and all of your subsequent feats are Evolved Summon Monster. So, your Summon Monster II will have 1 evolution, Summon Monster III will have 2 evolutions, Summon Monster IV will have 3 evolutions, etc. What can we build with this?

List of available evolutions:
Extra Attacks:
Tail Slap
Wing Buffet

Attack Enhancers:
Improved Damage
Magic Attacks

Improved Natural Armor


Basic Magic
Low-Light Vision
Unnatural Aura

First pass:

Horse with bite
Wolf with claws

Aurochs with claws and hooves
Lantern archon with improved damage and bleed

Bison with claws, hooves, and tail slap
Grizzly bear with pincers, sticky, and hooves

Ankylosaurus with bite, claws, hooves, and improved damage (tail)
Wooly rhinoceros with pounce, claws, hooves, and improved damage (gore)

Raw DPR is definitely interesting, but I'd also like to see any other cool combos that can be made!

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If the wizard is upset that the fighter is OP, I think the obvious solution is to level up.

I am worried that this will backfire.

Have you ever read up on the difference between "implicit motivation" and "explicit motivation"? Essentially, implicit goals are those that you pursue because you want to, while explicit goals are those where someone will provide you with a reward. (Like, reading for fun, versus reading because your parents will buy you pizza when you finish the book.) The unfortunate part is, by rewarding behaviors, it psychologically turns them from "play" into "work", and makes them less fun. So, a parent rewarding reading, for example, can actually cause the child to become less motivated to read, because it has become a chore rather than a joy.

By asking players to pre-define their goals and giving them rewards, you may be unintentionally taking one of the most creative and fulfilling parts of the game, and turning it into a grind.

Now, I think rewarding these kinds of successes is good - my GM gives us rewards for achieving missions for our faith or faction or family - but I would do so after the fact. Don't ask them beforehand to commit to "I go to this shrine and pray", just wait for them to do that sort of thing of their own volition, and then give them the reward as an unexpected surprise. This makes it memorable and satisfying, without making it into a slog.

You could drop a full plate version of the Soothsayer's Raiment (possible with a higher enchantment on it as well so the AC bonus at least matches what she's wearing currently.)

I'm also a huge fan of the Mitre of the Hierophant.

Aleron wrote:
Some day I'll know every spell and be a spontaneous caster! Muahahaha!

Then you really do want a Mnemonic Vestment!

Unless it says you can, you can't. Compare to the tengu ability:

Glide Some tengus can use their feathered arms and legs to glide. Tengus with this racial trait can make a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height without taking falling damage, as if using feather fall. When falling safely, a tengu may make an additional DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet he falls. This racial trait replaces gifted linguist.

For example, can Evolved Summon Monster be used with the summoner's Summon Monster SLA?

Similarly, can a Spelldancer use Dimensional Agility with the Spell Dance ability?

I have previously thought there was a distinction between using SLAs and casting spells, but now I'm not so sure, after seeing someone point out:

Spell-Like Abilities wrote:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

Kensai gets both proficiency and Weapon Focus in the whip for free at level 1.

Half-elves with Ancestral Arms (as well as half-orcs with City Raised) can get whip proficiency.

Mysterious Avenger gets whip proficiency as well.

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Simple would be a +1 ability that heals you 1d6 on a successful hit. Or a +2 ability that heals you 2d6. In any case, it would not activate against enemies immune to bleed, and can't be more than the damage dealt.

Ragoz wrote:
Edit: Realized I should explain how the Dimensional Agility (the core feature of the build) works. The Spell Dance ability lets you do a swift action dimension door as a spell-like ability. This qualifies you for Dimensional Agility. Because it is a swift action you may still full-attack. Done.

While you can take Dimensional Agility at 9th with this build, you still can't use it until 10th, as Dimensional Agility only activates when you cast Dimension Door (which you can't do until 10th level - using a SLA is not the same as casting a spell.) So the Dimensional Agility does not stack with your swift-action DimDoor, and you would still need Dimensional Dervish to be able to full attack the same round you use DimDoor.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Simultaneously, you see PCs who can acquire DR over the 20's, and nobody scoffs at that being extremely powerful.

Really? You don't think anyone thinks DR 20 is an extremely powerful ability?

Anyways, for a comparison benchmark, the best I can find is the Infernal Cord. It activates only when someone else scores a crit on you, and grants fast healing for a minute. The normal version grants fast healing 1, and costs 1,000 gp more than a normal Con belt. The greater version grants fast healing 4, and costs 15,000 more than a normal Con belt.

It sounds like the goals are to avoid full attacks and make AoOs, correct?

The best option might to take the Amateur Swashbuckler feat and pick up Dodging Panache. Then combine that with 5-foot steps and it should do what you want.

It might go down something like this:

1) Enemy moves up to you on their turn (provoking from your reach weapon) and attacks. You use Dodging Panache, step 5 feet back, and get a little AC bump against the attack.
2) On your turn, full attack, and then 5-foot step back, ending 10 feet from the enemy. (Or, use Spring Attack if you rather.)
3) The enemy now has to provoke again to move up to you. When they attack, you use Dodging Panache again and the cycle repeats.

So, you can full attack AND get an AoO every round, and limit the opponent to only a single attack every round.

(Of course, that's assuming the enemy doesn't have reach - but if the enemy does have reach, there is the Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair, or you can Dodging Panache -> Spring Attack instead of Dodging Panache -> full attack -> 5-foot step, which still gets you an attack and an AoO and limits the enemy to a single attack.)

Even half transfer sounds overpowered. For a martial character, you can reasonably assume that they'll be doing damage every round, so even if the healing was capped at 10 HP/round, that would be almost like giving them Fast Healing 10, an extremely strong ability.

What level is your character at? That might give us some idea of how much you can spend on this item.

Depending on what weapon you plan to use, there is the Fencer trait.

Channeled Revival does use the range of channeling per this FAQ, but still, it seems a waste of a feat. Because, if you are within 30 feet of the person and have Breath of Life as a domain spell, you can just move up to them and cast Breath of Life instead of using a full-round action to use Channeled Revival. It is potentially better at keeping you out of harm's way, but in my mind the only real reason to take it is so you don't have to prepare Breath of Life, which is irrelevant if you have it as a domain spell.

It sounds like the character is (maybe) 1% of the problem, and showing respect for your fellow players is 99% of the problem.

You want everyone at the table to be having fun. If you complain about being bored when they're trying to roleplay, that's not fun for the other players. Remember, the point of the game is not just to stomp imaginary monsters, it's to have fun and socialize. So, just try to be more considerate and patient, and I guarantee you any complaints will go away.

Chess Pwn wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Is Pounce even required in a world where Quick Runner's Shirts exist?
Well since quick runner's shirts are once per day that's only once per fight at most. Also not all campaigns allow that item, PFS and home games that feel if PFS bans it they should too.

PFS banned QRS? I must be out of the loop, when did that happen?

Wall of Stone and Greater Forbid Action are both excellent spells.

Is Pounce even required in a world where Quick Runner's Shirts exist?

There are always alchemist's fires, tanglefoot bags, acid flasks, and crossbows.

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