|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
I've been tickled recently by the idea of playing an overeager travel guide author - someone who might chronicle the "marvelous antique decor" of a ruined temple filled with zombies, or the "delectable homespun charm" of the dockside bar full of brawling sailors.
Is there any class or build that lends itself to this kind of character? I keep bouncing around between just about everything.
Currently I'm mulling an Evangelist cleric of Desna. But I'm not quite sure what I would do in combat besides spamming Command ("Would you just stop for a second and admire this gorgeous foliage?") and inspiring courage ("Come on, we're not going to let a few gutslugs ruin this fabulous trip, now are we?")
Any class that stands out to you? Or, could a Travel domain cleric wielding a quarterstaff or a crook be made melee-capable? Any other feats, items, etc. that could flesh it out?
I don't know of a RAW way, but if he takes Alignment Channel, you could homebrew feats that duplicate Turn Undead and Command Undead for the chosen alignment subtype. I feel like outsiders are probably more powerful per HD than undead are, though, so maybe put a lower maximum on how many HD of outsiders he can control.
My question: why would you use Pathfinder to play this game?
Because Pathfinder is 100% capable of supporting such a game... and it also has an incredible depth of mechanics. My hope would be that once I got more practice in RP that doesn't use mechanics as a crutch, the interaction between the mechanics and the RP would be freer and more fun.
Pizza Lord wrote:
Cool to hear that a similar thing has worked out for you in the past!
I was not planning on forcing identical gear - if anything, I was considering giving 2x WBL to allow them to diversify a little bit. Or probably something like 1x WBL base with 3 bonuses of extra 1/3 WBL if they have their character description, backstory, and motivations/goals submitted 1, 2 and 3 weeks before the first session (in any order, and allowing substitutions of other character-related information for any of those pieces.)
Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
I like the suggestion. As for if it violates the premise, I'm still unsure. I myself was wondering if Brawler, for example, is already subverting the premise. I suppose in its purest form you don't want anything memorable about the character stemming simply from mechanics... so even any prepared caster may be pushing it, since it could become "he's the blasty one, he's the summoner, etc." But it's already a very extreme experiment... too much limitation could kill it.
I think all gunslinger could be fun. Or all ranger. Or Hell, just go full boy-band and make everyone a Celebrity bard.
Fair questions... it's more about a scenario I would enjoy playing as one of the PCs. I know some of the traps I've fallen into where I make an early RP choice that ends up stereotyping my character in a way that I end up regretting. I am just curious to get feedback on whether others feel the same way... if I were a more skilled RPer then I wouldn't need to try out this exercise, but I was thinking it might be a way to strengthen my RP process.
I also am not suggesting that you actually force anyone to play this way - I'm aware that 75% of players probably wouldn't be interested in this game. But, if you ask a dozen people "would you be interested in this?" and get 4 yesses, there's your game. Play three sessions or so, see if people are digging it, and take it from there.
Personally, I find my intended RP vs my actual RP can diverge significantly. I might have a fleshed-out character in mind before the first session. But then instead of actually RPing to express the character I've planned, I end up making the easy, expected choices, like being extra goofy as a gnome, even if that didn't fit well with the intended personality based off my back story.
So, even with the pseudo-random assignment, I'd be concerned that it would devolve into "I'm a dwarf now so I'll be extra-ornery," or "I'm an elf now so I'll be extra-haughty."
The potential beauty of the exact same build is that you are FORCING real in-game RP to be the ONLY distinguishing factor. If they don't differentiate themselves with RP, they probably just won't have any fun... which is actually intended, because you are trusting them to find their fun by truly establishing a character and demonstrating how it is a different character than several mechanically-identical PCs.
Stormagedon Dark Lord of All wrote:
No on different races. Part of the goal is to avoid stereotyped RP choices. I DON'T want it to be "I'm playing the half-orc", "I'm playing the gnome", but rather something like "I'm playing Jordy, whose father was a , mother came from , when he was young  happened to him, and so now he wants to do  to demonstrate to  that he is . But, because of  he is afraid of , and has a fondness for ."
I DID actually play a musical campaign! I was lobbying hard for an all-bard party, but we ended up meeting halfway and settling on all musical characters from various classes that formed a traveling band. It was tons of fun, probably the most ridiculous campaign I've played (besides perhaps the all-gnome campaign.) I'd highly recommend that sort of campaign, but now I want to even take it one step farther!
I have been mulling what it would be like to play with a party where every character is built with the exact stats, feats, skills, etc.
My thought was, if everyone is mechanically identical, it could be a good exercise to force them to differentiate themselves in RP, without having the potential crutch of defining their character purely based off what's on their character sheet. It would basically require them to flesh out their PC into a multi-dimensional character. Now, I wouldn't propose playing a whole campaign like this, but maybe like 3-4 sessions (and who knows, maybe they would really start to enjoy it and want to keep going.)
What do you think? And how would you build a character if four party members were going to use the same build?
If you like the "wild side of magic", you should look into trying a Spellscar Oracle. Use the Eldritch Scar revelation to cause crazy primal magic events.
Then if you want more wildness, pick up a Rod of Wonder and the Primal Mastery revelation. If your GM allows you an intelligent Rod of Wonder that could be a very memorable character.
How much fun would it be to make a character that forces the enemy to do nothing but attack you, and then prevents the enemy from attacking you?
A Street Performer at 7th level with the Antagonize feat can aggro the bad guy with a standard action, and then use Harmless Performer as a move action to force the enemy to make a Will save to follow through with the attack (or a concentration check to not lose their spell.)
Sure, it's not that much stronger than Antagonize alone... but it is funnier! And it just takes one feat and an archetype... is there anything else you could do to add to the build?
So if I understand correctly, a stealthing creature still has to hit normal AC (not flat-footed AC) unless the target is flat-footed? It's only if they're invisible that they can hit flat-footed AC?
Because otherwise the fighter FCB for kobolds would be quite nice (1/2 level to damage.) Fighter would also be able to actually do damage even while having two feat slots eaten up by sniping feats.
You have some other nice options for traits, including Bullied and Bred for War. Initiative is handy, but I'm not sure the difference between a +2 and a +4 is worth the trait slot.
Ooh, Bred for War is really nice, I'll put that in! I looked at Bullied but hopefully any unarmed AoOs I make will be against prone opponents anyway, so I shouldn't need too much help.
The -2 on attack rolls with a flying blade is pretty yucky. Branched spear is interesting - the damage die and crit profile are worse and it's not a trip weapon, but +2 on AoOs with it is nice.
I wasn't seeing anything great to trade High Jump for, although as Avoron suggests having something to deal with fliers could be helpful, so maybe Scorching Ray is the way to go.
Something else to be aware of is that when an opponent provokes when standing up from prone, the attack resolves while they're still considered prone, meaning you can't use that attack of opportunity to keep them prone. This is to prevent you from being able to 'trip lock' opponents.
Yeah, I'm well aware of that - but if you really want to "trip lock", this char could do that in a couple other ways. The obvious one - ready an trip attempt when they get up. (By 11th level he can even ready two trip attempts and give a +20 bonus to one of them.)
The second way to trip lock is that once you're (permanently) enlarged, you can use Ki Throw to force them to land 20 feet away after you trip them with an AoO. Then if they try to approach you again, you trip them again with your AoO, throw them away, etc.
Some good critique here. The save DC is not amazing, but it scales nicely. Sure it's unlikely to work against things with great Fort saves, but for debilitating enemy casters/rogue-types/etc. it is a very reasonable DC. Another option for improving the odds is subbing in Improved Dirty Trick for Tripping Strike at 10th. Then, any time you start your turn standing over a prone opponent, use your Flurry of Maneuvers to sicken him before you make your unarmed attacks and use Wolf Savage, getting an effective +2 to your DC (along with the other benefits of having a sickened opponent.)
For AC, Mage Armor does a lot to shore it up. Plus the deterrence effect of a reach weapon, and the fact that any trippable enemies will spend a lot of time prone (or standing up from prone) will give an effective AC boost.
If you want to reduce the MADness issue, you could take avr's suggestion to use an elven branched spear and then get it agile enchanted and get an agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. But that's expensive, you lose Power Attack, it limits you to piddling damage even at low levels and pretty lame damage even after that... so I don't like that route, but it is an option.
For ranged damage, javelins are reasonable and this char has the stats to use them effectively. Or, you could sub out High Jump for Scorching Ray.
Good catch on Power Attack - move Combat Reflexes and Vicious Stomp to level 1, Improved Trip to level 2, and Power Attack to level 3.
I rarely build monks that I think could actually do decent damage along with having cool tactics, so I'm excited for this one.
The concept is to use a reach weapon along with Wolf Trip, Wolf Savage, and Vicious Stomp to mangle any who dare oppose me. Someone trying to approach in melee provokes an AoO, gets tripped, provokes again from Greater Trip, and provokes again from Vicious Stomp. On my turn, I use Flurry of Maneuvers to trip, causing them to provoke twice and giving a chance to mangle them with Wolf Savage.
Build might look like this:
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms - fauchard) Qinggong Maneuver Master Monk
It should go without saying that this dude is a tripping machine, and from level 1 he is doing good damage Power Attacking with a two-handed d10 weapon with 18-20/x2 crit range, so that even against un-trippable opponents he can hold his own. (Although with quickened true strike 3/day, they better actually be immune to trip if they want to stay standing.)
I'd love to hear any critiques.
i had a very fun and functional Daring Champion with Slashing Grace and Whip Mastery. Tactician went toward Tandem Trip. It was feat intensive though...
Sounds like fun! Did you ever look into a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone to save a feat at the cost of 1,500 gp?
I have a minor obsession with trying to build whip characters (yes, they are always feat starved) and this item seems like a godsend to help with that.
Not quite, Summon Monster only gains the alignment descriptor if it summons a creature with that alignment subtype. So, summoning a CE salamander is not a chaotic nor an evil spell, and a CG or a LE herald caller would both be able to summon it. Here's the text:
Summon Monster wrote:
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type.
Granted, after glancing over the list, it does seem that most of the aligned creatures also have alignment subtypes, so the difference might be mostly irrelevant. The only ones I see that don't have subtypes matching their alignment are the salamander (neither chaotic nor evil) and the xill (evil but not lawful.)
You're right, it talks about alignment rather than alignment subtype. Rather strange that the author write all that when they could have just written "must have an alignment within 1 step of the deity's alignment", which would have been much clearer and avoided confusion with alignment subtypes. So yeah, just pick a neutral good deity and you're good to go.
It's even broader than that - a herald caller or a LG god could summon a CG or a LE monster (provided they don't have the chaotic or evil subtype,) neither of which is within 1 alignment step from the deity.
Well, by far the best class (or just one-level dip) for an Intimidate build is the Thug Rogue. Because making someone Frightened is just so much better than making them Shaken.
However, that doesn't make much use of the high Int, besides being super-duper skilled. As others suggested, you could go Magus or Investigator and just do a one-level dip into Thug.
Can inevitables lie? Because the arbiter, with its spell-like commune, could easily convince the paladin it speaks with the voice of his god. The paladin doesn't know it's only actually able to do that once per week, and all the other times its Albert feeding him whatever he needs to hear at the moment.
Is there a way to make Discern Location permanent, or just castable by someone who can't normally cast it. AKA someone who doesn't have it on there spell list or can't cast spells. Then you could easily have an item on the familiar that lets you know exactly were he is. Yes I know you can just cast it as a wizard, but I also want to know for an idea I have. Also this way you would always were they are.
There is Status.
Now, if you want to take this one more step...
you can keep your familiar permanently in the form of a human, and then give your familiar its own familiar. The party never needs to know that the actual wizard isn't even there.
Oh man, those archetypes are EXCELLENT. Feats are a game-changer - I'm thinking that going for Spring Attack is a good option. The familiar could get it by 9th level with the Beast-Bonded Witch, or by 10th level with the Spirit Binder Wizard.
After reading the witch touch spells, there are a lot of really nasty ones in there! I am tempted to make a LE witch with an augur kyton, dishing out hellish treats like:
1: Chill Touch
Any other good feats besides the Spring Attack line that I'm missing? (An arbiter has Flyby Attack already so Spring Attack is less necessary if you're going that route.)
So, we've all heard that one about the wizard:
Yes, our stereotypical wizard friend values his library time (and his fair complexion stands up poorly to natural sunlight.) Yet still, he needs to make a living somehow, and the life of a murderhobo has pay that's hard to beat these days. So let's see if we can coddle him, shall we?
Let's give our friend a Glove of Familiar's Touch, and a permanent telepathic bond to his familiar. Now, he can perform all manner of murderation and murder-facilitation from the comforts of his own kitchen, in his pajamas, while his tea is steeping.
"But isn't sending your familiar into melee the first step in making familiar tartare?" you might ask: which is why our friend has chosen a familiar that won't stay dead for long. But still, to avoid too many unfortunate bouts of greatsword-induced sleepiness brought on by opportunity attacks, we can have it do some stretching to give it reach.
It takes some gold, limits you to touch and personal spells, and eats a few feats. But, isn't it worth it to enjoy your crumpets in peace? So which touch spells are best? Are there better classes than wizard for this idea? What (preferably slotless) items could enhance the familiar's powers to put it on-par with an in-person PC?
I would think that you immediately get the spell slots (so, for example, you could use them for Arcane Blast without resting,) but I don't think the spells just magically appear in your spellbook. I think it's assumed you spend time adding the spell to your spellbook.
Here's what the rules say:
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll wrote:
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook).
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook wrote:
Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.
If you treat the free spells as an "Aha!" moment, you could possibly waive the "1 hour studying the spell", but I think you would still have to take the 1 hour/spell level to copy it into your spellbook, and then another 15 minutes to prepare it.
I DECLARE ANY DISCUSSION OF ORANGE PRISM IOUN STONES TO BE OVER.
If anyone wants to continue talking about that, they can necro RD's thread from 2010. It seems clear to me from that thread that they don't stack.
@RD, I took Craft Wondrous and of course have Scribe Scroll. But, I only actually have 410,000 to spend, and I'm allowed to spend half my gold crafting, which is why I put 615,000.
After allocating, though, I have spent about 250,000 on items I can't craft, so my total effective gold is now more like 570,000.
Goz Mask is tempting, but Steel-Mind Cap seems a little too weak considering the price. Confused is a pretty crummy condition. I am leaning towards a Cap of the Free Thinker for the head slot, but perhaps I'll see if I can graft on a Goz Mask.
Dweomer's Essence has been banned by my GM for being too OP. But, for anyone else out there, YES YES YES YES that stuff rocks.
Truesight Goggles were so so so so so tempting. But three reasons I decided against that luxury was (1) they're a budget-killer, (2) I'll be taking the Fortune Teller feat (mostly for fluff) and so I can cast True Seeing for free, and (3) I thought it might just annoy the GM since it's kind of an insta-win against lots of things.
Permanent See Invisibility was an oversight, thanks for catching that! Permanent Tongues I'm not taking because I'll be a Scroll Scholar and get automatic Permanent Comprehend Languages, and I'll know tons of languages anyway. Permanent Darkvision seems not terribly useful, since it can't see through Deeper Darkness, but I could be convinced.
Knowledge (arcana) allows you to:
Identify a spell that just targeted you - DC = 25 + spell level
You are walking down the road and feel a tingle. You're expecting your buddy to scry on you to check up, but are also afraid some ruffian is trying to paralyze and mug you. Can you make a Knowledge (arcana) check to tell what the spell is, and then, depending on the spell, decide whether or not to forgo your save?
Most importantly - he should have known before building the character that this is how your setting operates. Whose fault this is depends: on one end, if you have a custom setting and you knew he was rolling a lizardfolk and never told him it would be feared, that's your mistake, whereas on the other hand if you're playing in Golarion and he never told you his character plans then that's probably his bad.
Regardless, it's good to get character concepts up-front and give advance warning about this kind of stuff.
Some nice suggestions!
The Efficient Quiver is fantastic, that's just the sort of thing I am looking for! (I wish I had known about it when I was playing my oracle, since for spontaneous casters, it neatly solves that "perpetually holding a metamagic rod because you don't know when combat will start and I can't draw and use it in the same round" problem.)
Here's a current list I'm planning on:
(67K) Otherworldly Kimono
Any other suggestions?
Chess Pwn wrote:
You never actually used the attack action. The readied action rules state "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." In this case, they are not still capable of attacking, so instead of continuing to attempt an attack action with no target, they now have a standard action to do as they please.
Technically it's legal (although some GMs may rule that the attacker can continue their move after your readied action goes off, which is probably not RAW.) I explored this idea in this thread, which essentially came to the conclusion that it will only work to avoid one or two attacks.
(If the attacker double-moved or charged, he can't do step 4, so you could possibly do the trick twice instead of just once.)
Clebsch GM wrote:
First, where are you getting the idea that it attacks as a ranged weapon? It provokes as if attacking with a ranged weapon, but other than that it is a normal melee reach attack. It benefits from flanking, sneak attack, precision, etc. as normal.
Second, besides damage, it has multiple benefits: it negates the AoO from attacking, so for example, with Improved Trip you can make a trip attack without provoking at all, or without Improved Trip you can make a trip attack only provoking once instead of twice. Also, it qualified you to take Improved Trip Mastery which is a pretty great feat.
Here's the text from UMD:
Use Magic Device wrote:
Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.
So the question comes down to whether a scroll of Speak With Dead is one of "these items", i.e., one that has "positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment."
I think there's a reasonable argument that the ability to cast a spell without a save is a "positive effect".
Speak With Dead reads:
If the dead creature's alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive
If cast from a scroll, does this use the scroll creator's alignment, or the alignment of the person activating the scroll?
If it does use the alignment of the person activating the scroll, you can make a UMD check to emulate a different alignment, correct? So you can circumvent the saving throw by knowing the dead creature's alignment and making a DC 30 UMD check?