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RumpinRufus's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,546 posts (2,643 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 5 Pathfinder Society characters. 3 aliases.


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Rynjin wrote:

All members of a LOT of particular races can "save twice" against any spell. They're called Outsiders.

It works VERY well for Outsiders, for two reasons:

1.) They provide their own buffs.

2.) Their caster level is higher than yours.

So are bralanis never supposed to use Cure Serious on anyone besides themselves? Do hound archons only use Aid on themselves too?

The trait Iron Liver is a fantastic one I had missed. For items, I'll definitely have to go for a wand of Polypurpose Panacea. And when I can afford it, a Drinking Horn of the Panacea would be great.

I also realized that the Adventurer's Armory version of pesh is different than the Gamemastery Guide version.

Pesh - Adventurer's Armory wrote:
Taking refined pesh gives a person 15 temporary hit points for 1 hour, a +2 morale bonus on saves versus fear effects for 1 day, and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and Wisdom for 1 day. Pesh is addictive (Fortitude DC 10 to resist), and long-term users suffer Dexterity and Wisdom damage.

Especially at low levels, this could be a lot nicer. 15 temps is a lot at any level, but at first level that's just crazy. And a DC 10 save vs addiction is way more makeable at levels 1 and 2 when I need to make that save.

If I bought Dark Markets would that give more detail about the psychoactive effects of pesh? I'd like to know more about what kind of high it provides. Or is there any other book that gives more information about it?

Putting aside RAW for a minute, is there any real reason that SR hinders friendly spells? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You can voluntarily fail a save, what's wrong with letting you choose not to apply SR to a friendly spell?

Lantern archons have Aid as a SLA, but it would be completely impossible for them to use it on a trumpet archon, as they cannot make that SR check. Hound archons have to roll a 9 or better to use Aid on their fellow hound archons, and bralanis have to roll an 11 or better to use Cure Serious Wounds on their fellow bralanis. Why do they even have these abilities if they fail half the time?

As a house rule, I would just allow people to choose which spells are affected by SR. Or if that's too generous, allow them to lower it as an immediate action instead of a standard action, lasting until the start of their next turn.

Lesser Change Shape is 3 RP, not 6.

I was looking at something like:

3 RP: Outsider (native)
2 RP: Seducer
4 RP: Flight
3 RP: Fiendish Resistance
3 RP: Change Shape, Lesser
3 RP: Silver Tongued
1 RP: Bite

19 RP total

Mix and match as you like. I must say, I am a bit shocked that a fly speed is only considered 4 RP.

Yeah, the idea is not to go around passing out drugs to children and getting them hooked. He just knows what he likes, and will protect the rights of others to do what they like, to the extent that what they are doing does not harm anyone else.

Anyone else have ideas for interesting items/traits/feats?

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It sounds like a lot of the opposition is based on, "A paladin should lead by example." Putting aside for a moment the paladin's code does not require this, I would ask you, "Should the average commoner go barging into the demesnes of ancient chromatic dragons to try and kill them?" No, that would be terribly suicidal and would leave behind a very upset widow and a bunch of hungry kids - but paladins do that sort of thing all the time. Now, you can say that the paladin is setting a good example by inspiring adventurers to become strong enough to go off and slay dragons, and I could respond that Party Hearty is similarly inspiring people to become pious enough that their god will grant them respite from the harmful effects of drugs, either through paladin-like immunities or cleric-like healing powers. And if the paladin is an Ethical Hedonist, and believes that pleasure is the primary good, then enjoying a good smoke is a similar act of good (in kind but not degree) to killing a dragon.

Now, is it possible to be Lawful Good and still party hard? To answer that, let me quote in full Paizo's entry on LG:

Lawful Good:
Lawful Good

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good combines honor with compassion.

Lawful good characters are proficient at understanding bureaucracies, following laws, and cultivating order and structure in their own lives and in others'. They are naturally helpful, and others find them trustworthy, even if they don't share the same alignment. Additionally, lawful good characters are adept at deciding which actions are lawful and benefit society rather than the individual. With their focus on order, they can often build governmental stability where none previously existed. These characters sometimes have problems defying laws, even when the laws are unjust. Instead of disobeying or protesting against such laws, they work within the provided structure or system to change those laws, and they implore others to do so as well. They feel guilty lying to others, even if only asked to fib to provide a ruse for their companions. Similarly, they won't break the law to help good-intentioned party members perform actions that might have beneficial results.

When they're adventuring in urban areas with their companions, lawful good characters may feel compelled to excuse themselves from certain plans or attempt to reason with those more lenient in their interpretation of the law. It's much easier for lawful good characters to ignore the bad behavior of other party members when exploring ruins and wilderness areas outside the direct jurisdiction of a governing body.

Lawful good characters regard law as necessary for the welfare of society. They fight to abolish or change laws they deem unjust, and they always aid those in need. Lawful good characters strive to be forthright in their words and deeds, refuse to lie to others, and keep their covenants. They oppose evil wherever it is found, and avoid putting the good of the individual ahead of what is good for the masses. For these characters, the end rarely justifies the means. Characters drawn to honor, righting wrongs, or making sacrifices for others might be attracted to this alignment.

Opportunities and Allies

The character class most often associated with the lawful good alignment is the paladin, but this alignment may also include monks, who are always lawful. With a few exceptions, the other character classes allow for any alignment. However, playing a lawful good rogue—though feasible via the game's rules—may be challenging. Such a character would, however, be a good addition to a law enforcement body as an investigator, or might travel as a scout or spy for a military or knightly order. She might also be a trustworthy appropriator of treasures lost in the depths of old ruins.

Social Order: Bringing peace and order to a community or nation should be a paramount ideal to a lawful good character. Settling conflict and establishing a fair body of laws may be more often associated with politicians, legislators, and barristers, but an adventurer can pursue those ideals as well. Whether she focuses on keeping the peace or fighting against those who seek to upset the traditions of a particular society, an adventurer in an urban environment can instill the principles of a lawful good alignment in its people.


Lawful good characters vary widely, especially in terms of their zeal for their beliefs. Some may be fanatical examples of the alignment, while others apply these ideals more loosely in their lives. The following examples showcase just a few of the possible approaches to this alignment.

I don't think anything in there contradicts an Ethical Hedonist philosophy. Unless pesh is outlawed in that nation, the closest thing to problematic is "cultivating order and structure in their own lives and in others'", but that can be justified by saying the order and structure he promotes is to routinely indulge in whatever gives you pleasure, so long as you are not hurting anyone else by doing so.

@Purple Dragon Knight, thanks for the nice suggestions! I am giving a second look at warpriest of Cayden Cailean so I could use Fortified Drinker, the Tankard of the Drunken Hero, and Drunkard's Breath. The Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor is great for the paladin as well as the warpriest.

Also, Pick Your Poison is just a freaking fantastic spell that I never knew about! A level 1 spell that converts the penalties of Stinking Cloud, Blood Mist, and any other poison to more-or-less just give you the Sickened condition? And a 10 min/level duration? That is really something!

Can a paladin party harder than any other class? I have been thinking about building a raucous character who follows a code of Ethical Hedonism - he WILL fight for your right to party! At first I was thinking a warpriest of either Cayden Cailean or Halcamora, but when I started to understand all the awful things that pesh addiction would do to a warpriest, I thought, why not a paladin of Halcamora?

Why can a paladin party so hearty?
1) Divine Health makes them immune to addiction, which is good because pesh addiction is incredibly awful for a front-liner.
2) Their first Mercy at level 3 can be used to cure fatigue, eliminating one of the side effects of pesh.
3) In-class Lesser Restoration to cure ability damage.

Then you can take Pesh Euphoria to eliminate the Will save penalty, and grant a nice reroll vs enchantments.

Now, are there any other abilities that could let you party even harder? And is there any better way to get rid of the ability damage besides using all your spell slots on Lesser Restoration? And how to square away "respect legitimate authority" with using a drug that is illegal in many places?

We all love loot, right? So why not make a character who doesn't care about any of that "save the innocents from the jaws of evil" stuff, and just wants to get rich?

First off, are there any good treasure hunting items? I know about the Treasure Hunter's Goggles, which I could switch on and off with Eyes of the Eagle. And Gloves of Reconnaissance also stand out as a good choice. But I'd love to hear more suggestions.

Second, are there traits or feats that complement the theme? Coincunning is thematic, although I wonder how many GMs are going to let you walk by a mound of coins and force you to ask for a Perception check instead of just letting you find it automatically. Pragmatic Activator

Possible build details:
I feel like a Ratfolk character is suited toward this, due to their love of treasure and cool magic items. Investigator seems like a good class choice, with good skills and Trapfinding. To make it combat-viable, I'm thinking dip into Inspired Blade and take Fencing Grace. So, the build might look something like:

Ratfolk Inspired Blade 1/Empiricist X
strength 7, dexterity 18, constitution 14, intelligence 18, wisdom 10, charisma 7
traits: Pragmatic Activator, Coincunning
1: Fencing Grace
3: Skill Focus (Perception)
4: Trap Spotter (Investigator Talent -> Rogue Talent)

Not really sure what feats to take, or what other Investigator talents to take.

So, I'd love to hear items, feats, or traits that fit the "treasure hunter" theme. Also feel free to regale us with your stories of shamelessly-avaricious characters.

This may be included in (4), but I think it merits elaboration:

Build your character with motivations, personality, and mannerisms. (Roughly in that order of importance.) At least for me, having a strong idea of what my character WANTS is the biggest part of having fun with the character. Whether it be minor goals that you can achieve in each session, or an overarching goal you may only reach in the epilogue, I find achieving these character goals to be the most rewarding part of plays.

Personality and mannerisms are what make your character distinct and memorable. (I really enjoy when people have a voice in-character, both because it makes the character come alive, and it really distinguishes out-of-character chatter from in-character dialogue.)

Not familiar with the character, but maybe a locked gauntlet + weapon, or armor spikes (reskinned as desired.)

I was assuming a "thin but not paper-thin" wall, and so it was still blocking line of effect to that one NPC. If the wall ended ~1 foot sooner, it probably wouldn't be blocking LoE and it would hit him as well.

Inquisitor would be strong for this. Great ranged capability, good buffing, although your bonus feats would be teamwork feats.

The Myrmidarch magus is a possibility. I believe there is a guide for it in the Guide to the Guides.

Battle oracle could work as well, being the best buffer, although the bonus feats would have to come through revelations.

Warpriest should also meet your requirements.

Actually, I think this might be more accurate: diagram.

This diagram uses the criterion "maximum of 20 foot distance from the point of origin to the furthest corner." Which corresponds to how bursts are drawn, e.g., 10-foot bursts and 20-foot bursts.

The first diagram I made was using something more similar to the movement of a PC, but that kind of breaks down when you are talking about referencing distance from an intersection.

But I would be lying if I said I haven't gotten myself a bit confused.

Spreads as I understand them.

Not sure that diagram is actually correct, RD.

Burst, Emanation, or Spread wrote:
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

Updated diagram coming.

Tetori has got to make the list. Not sure if it tops it or not, but it's definitely on there!

Wizard 5/Magambyan Arcanist 1/Rogue or Ninja or Vivisectionist 1/Snakebite Striker 1/Arcane Trickster X would be possible... but at that point we're talking about being level 6 before you ever see the Flame Blade come out, and level 10 by the time your Sneak Attack dice hit +3d6 and actually exceed those granted by the druid build. And your BAB at that point is absolute garbage, there is no ITWF/GTWF basically forever, and you have lost two caster levels.

Even if the druid build is limited to Sneak Attack +2d6, I think it's probably still the best option.

Cuuniyevo wrote:

Arcane Trickster

Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Here's the relevant quote. It's an AT ability, not an ability that just anyone can use.

Well, any rogue with UMD could use a scroll of Shocking Grasp and get sneak attack with it. The Arcane Trickster ability just allows you to use it on spells that don't have an attack roll.

Cuuniyevo wrote:
As for those gloves, there is a FAQ about it, and it says the sneak attack damage only applies to a single attack if the attacks are simultaneous, relevant in cases such as magic missile (only one of the missiles deals the SA). I would rule that the Shocking Grasp is the attack, and the gloves just provide a bonus damage roll on a successful, not an extra attack of their own. Therefore, the sneak attack damage would be electricity-based.

What about if you get sneak attack with an Elemental Assessor? Is the Sneak Attack damage evenly split between the four energy types?

Abraham spalding wrote:

Well are you attacking with an unarmed attack?

If so then it would do unarmed attack, the corrosive weapon ability (1d6 acid) and carry shocking grasp.

So the unarmed strike would be the attack and carry the sneak attack and a 1d6 acid and then the shocking grasp.

If you were using shocking grasp then you would do electrical damage, with no acid damage since the gloves wouldn't do a thing as the situation doesn't activate them.

I would just be attacking with the touch attack from Shocking Grasp, which would indeed activate the Deliquescent Gloves.

Deliquescent Gloves wrote:
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage.

I don't know if there is any RAW to resolve what type of damage the sneak attack would be, but if there is I'd like to find out because I'm considering doing something similar to this with a PFS character.

Is there actually any rule that says that energy damage spells like Scorching Ray do the appropriate energy type in Sneak Attack damage? It makes sense, but I cannot find a rule on it anywhere.

My question: if you wear a Deliquescent Glove and hit someone with a Shocking Grasp to do sneak attack damage, what type of damage is the sneak attack?

Burst, Emanation, or Spread wrote:

Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. a burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

I think thorin001 has the right of it: there are 2 opportunities, one for moving out of a threatened square (which can be avoided with Acrobatics) and one for moving into an occupied square (which cannot be avoided.) When the rules say:

Very Small Creature wrote:
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

there is no indication that this is redundant with the normal rule of provoking from leaving a threatened space.

For example, if you were using Earth Glide as a tiny creature and came out of a wall into an opponent's square, you would provoke an AoO even though they weren't threatening your previous space.

The giants could have the trample ability.

I've been working on a druid that dual-wields Flame Blade and Frostbite. Using Elemental Spell and metamagic traits he can get those to be other elements as well.

Build is here.

The original idea was to use Flame Blade to reliably land sneak attacks, and I was going to go into Arcane Trickster but that idea got shot down by the recent FAQ on SLAs. Regardless, the concept had somewhat evolved to an "elementalist".

Using the Nature Fang archetype and the slayer talents you can get tons of touch attacks every round. The build I linked does have a familiar because it uses the Crocodile domain, but you can replace that with any domain you like if you want to go totally animal-less.


Bracers of Armor can be assumed to be steel or iron, so they have hardness 10. Their thickness is a judgment call but I'd say 1/4", so HP would be 7.

Vow of Poverty monk?

(I'm assuming you mean longspear rather than shortspear.)

RAW, I don't see why not. Nothing says you have to be threatening to feint as far as I can tell.

If you want to get silly with it, you could even use Two-Weapon Feint to feint Opponent B 20 ft. away as you're TWF-attacking Opponent A. Then next turn go over and sneak attack Opponent B.

Well he was specifically mentioning PCs that were standing adjacent to each other.

There's also Whirlwind Attack if you want to just attack a whole area.

Ascalaphus wrote:

I think some of the kaiju from Bestiary 4 can attack all creatures standing together in an area. That might be appropriate for giants as well; if there's PCs adjacent to each other, they might be squashed by a hit from the same gargantuan-sized club.

It'd require some rules R&D of course, but basically, with weapons that big, you're making a kind of area attack. It means that to fight giants you really want to spread out. That could be the tactical change of pace you're looking for.

No rules R&D required, this is done easily enough with Cleave and Great Cleave.

Are creatures with the Fiendish template considered evil? I had thought they were but I can't find any RAW to back that up.

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Any creature summoned by a spell from the Summoning subschool of the Conjugation school will be affected. I believe this is a complete list.

Note that creatures brought via the Calling subschool (such as Planar Binding or Planar Ally) will not be affected, nor will creatures that have traveled to the Material Plane on their own power or who were gated in, Plane Shifted in, etc. Only the Summoning subschool spells are actually affected.

The main limitation of this spell is the 1 minute casting time, coupled with the relatively short minutes/level duration.

But yeah, it is rather crazily strong for a 2nd level spell.

Also, the Red Sash Swordmaster's Flair is a great judo item. Especially with Ki Throw, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp.

Someone charges you, you get an immediate action trip attempt at an effective +4 bonus, you can throw them into any space you threaten, and you get two AoOs on them. And that's their turn, when you start your turn they are prone on the ground next to you with an extra -2 AC.

I feel like Quickened True Strike deserves a mention. You can get True Strike from Qinggong Monk and then take Quicken Spell-Like Ability at level 11.

I also feel like the true Judo master is the Flowing Monk. I have designed a monk who tosses enemies around the battlefield, using the Flowing Monk abilities, Ki Throw, Bull Rush, and Reposition, and using True Strike to really get some distance going when he throws them around.

I suppose it stops you from needing to cast defensively. But, it is strange that they made it a swift action, as now it takes a standard + swift to use instead of just a standard.

Yes, it does provoke (unless it specifically says otherwise,) but keep in mind that combat maneuvers in general only provoke from the target of the maneuver, not from every creature that threatens.

Serum wrote:
I'm not sure you're aware, but touch attacks with frostbite are standard actions, and therefore can't be combined with flame blade attacks. How are you TWF with flame blade and frostbite?

Pretty sure this is not true, because otherwise 50% of maguses out there are crying right now. But I'd definitely want to see if there is RAW that says that this isn't allowed.

Readying and Delaying actually do result in your initiative changing. Having your Dex change does not result in your initiative changing, because nothing anywhere in the rules says it does, and that is not how checks work in Pathfinder.

And just consider the headaches this would cause if it were to be true - any time someone is grappled, fatigued, exhausted, entangled, paralyzed, or unconscious, you would have to change the initiative order. And then change it back if they lose the condition. And then what happens if A goes on count 10, dispels the Hold Person affecting B, and B's initiative jumps from 8 to 14? Does B have to wait until count 14 comes again to act, or does the initiative order start to run in reverse to give B a turn?

It's not supported by the rules, and it would be an awful mess even if you wanted to house-rule it.

MechE_ wrote:

I was never a fan of the original ruling Paizo made, but as with everything, I spoke with my group about it so that we're all on the same page about how the rules work. It was then that I knew this ruling was a poor idea. Tt took me 10 minutes of explaining it for the more experienced guys to understand it and their response was "You're pulling our chain, right? That is the silliest rule I've ever heard."

Had the original ruling been what it is now, the response from most people would have been "Duh, it's been that way for ~14 years of 3.Xe." Instead, a ruling was made that required a much higher than average level of system mastery and changed many of the subtly accepted "rules" of the game. (Spell-like abilities normally aren't super valuable unless it's a decent spell, Prestige classes required 5-6 levels of a base class, etc.)

The real misstep Paizo made in this whole ordeal was ruling the way they did on the original FAQ a year and a half ago.

I don't think that it's good design to nerf the low-powered builds of players with a high degree of game mastery. If those players can no longer use the interesting but low-power option, they are more likely to just build very powerful characters, potentially getting into balance issues.

If you feel that system mastery is not something to be rewarded, you can play your own table that only allows core-only barbarians. But for people who like to make interesting niche builds that can use a unique play style and still remain viable, it is frustrating to have balanced options stripped away for no reason other than the fact that familiarity with an FAQ was needed to build them.

Initiative wrote:

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.

As Jeff says, it is very clearly a check. Changing your Dex doesn't change the result of that check. The only actions that change your initiative are Special Initiative Actions, Ready or Delay.

You wouldn't fall if you just hit the DC of a Fly check to hover and then get hit with a Ray of Exhaustion, because the check has already been made and the result is set. Similarly, once you make an Initiative check, the result is set.

Evangelist archetype.

Pretty sure dipping is the only way. Cleric, druid, warpriest, inquisitor, or oracle could all get you an appropriate class feature.

Cleric has some nice front-loaded domains like Luck and Travel. Oracle has tons of cool revelations if you're willing to pick up a curse. But, AFAIK you are going to lose a caster level one way or another.

rungok wrote:

Hrm... :/

Would slashing grace work to qualify?

Nope, natural attacks are light weapons, not one-handed.

However, if you take either Snake Style or Hamatulatsu Strike and Feral Combat Training, then you can swashbuckle with your claws.


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Helikon wrote:

And I still deny that it will restrict the creativity of most players. Because what did they do. They read a guide and followed that guide to the letter. The revers is true. You have to learn to focus on spells that are useful regardless of level. And learn to use that to the fullest.

Are you less powerful in raw power. I admit yes. Are you less useful? Nope!

You are painting with broad strokes, my good man.

Are there some people who start by saying "I want to make a strong Mystic Theurge", and then they go straight to the guide? Sure.

But are there plenty more people who have a concept, an idea, an image, and then want to do what they can to make that work? Yes! If you start with the fluff instead of the crunch, then you are almost necessarily going to be making some suboptimal choices. If the only way to flesh out that concept is then to enter a class that is merely adequate even when it's optimized, and terribly weak when you are constrained by your character concept, it kills the concept. Just kills it dead. Because no one wants to bring a deadweight character to the table.

I don't really agree with your assertion that "learn to focus on spells that are useful regardless of level" is truly encouraging creativity. Yes, you can spam Glitterdust, etc., from now until forever and you are probably going to be providing some benefit. But is that really your definition of creativity? Because my idea of a creative character is doing something novel that few characters will excel at, and finding ways to work the mechanics to flesh out that concept. It's just frustrating when those options are presented, and then stripped away for completely opaque reasons.

Just as examples, I once saw a stunning image of the northern lights, and wanted to base a character on the aurora. It just so happened that the cantrips I needed (Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation, Haunted Fey Aspect) were on the sorcerer list, while the trick I needed to make the fluff into an effective character (Awesome Display) was an oracle ability. So Mystic Theurge was a way to take that vision and make it a playable character. And it even made tons of sense as an aasimar, due to the heaven/heavens connection. Or, when I wanted a character to get Sneak Attack with the spell Flame Blade, and Nature Fang -> Arcane Trickster turned out to be the way to do that. Now, I have to either sacrifice aspects of the original inspiration, or else risk becoming useless during combat.

If it had been overpowered, I would understand. But it wasn't.

Ravingdork wrote:
Benjamin Roe wrote:
I have mixed feelings. Early entry into prestige classes was not a big deal at all for balance, but the previous ruling was so arbitrary and inconsistent. I think the new ruling is way more intuitive and elegant, but I'm sad to see eldritch knights, arcane tricksters, mystic theurges, and (to a lesser extent) arcane archers stop being playable.
They've always been playable. I've seen them succeed time and time again in actual games. They're just not optimal. People tend to think that if it's not optimal, it's useless, which isn't the least bit true.

While "stop being playable" may be an exaggeration, you have to admit that this SEVERELY restricts the creativity of players that would want to build prestige characters.

Is the Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT X still playable? Sure. But what about the Sorcerer/Oracle/MT? Or the Bard/Cleric/MT? Or the Sorcerer/Slayer/AT? These builds will be so far behind that they will essentially be non-combatants unless the party is intentionally unoptimized. And they will have to wait and wait and wait to get going and do the things they were designed to do.

Maybe I'm just bitter because my Nature Fang 6/Arcane Trickster X that I was so excited to play is now not legal. It just seems like this new rule forces the builds to be more and more standard to even maintain a semblance of viability.

First crack at a new build, this one is human. Next I'll try to put together a gnome. Italics are things that I'm unsure about.

Human Elementalist
traits: Magical Lineage (flame blade), Wayang Spellhunter (frostbite)
strength 8, dexterity 18, constitution 12, intelligence 12, wisdom 16, charisma 8
1: Weapon Finesse, Elemental Spell (electricity)
3: Dervish Dance
4: Two-Weapon Fighting (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style)
5: Elemental Spell (acid)
6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style)
7: Elemental Spell (cold)
8: Weapon Focus (melee touch) (Slayer Talent - Weapon Training)
9: Hammer the Gap
10: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style)
11: Improved Critical (scimitar)
12: Knock-Out Blow (Advanced Slayer Talent)

Taking Elemental Spell so many times is probably not necessary, so I'm curious to know what other suggestions people would have for my feats at 5, 7, and 9.

Dafydd wrote:
As you no longer need 2 SA, you can go with a different domain or even a pet. This is assuming you no longer need the 2 SA.

Well, the original idea was really a thought experiment in how to land Sneak Attack reliably. Granted, it has evolved quite a bit, and now my concept is

"The Elementalist" but I would like to conserve whatever SA dice I can keep.

Oh dang, now I feel silly. Is that a new feature? I could have sworn they were only on the race pages before...

Yeah, thanks for the heads up. Super frustrating, but I'm trying to figure out how to salvage it, because I've gotten SUPER excited for this character.

Losses: all Sneak Attack progression beyond 2d6, no possibility of ever getting sneak dice on a Storm of Vengeance :'(

Possible gains: better BAB, more slayer talents (including GTWF at 10), swift studied target at 9, frees up a magic trait to take Magical Lineage on Flame Blade, frees up choice of races (although tengu may still be the best option.)

Working on retooling the build currently. I might go human and take Elemental Spell early, so my Flame Blade can be Lightning Blade/Ice Blade/Acid Blade at the same spell level. Still trying to look through races and see if there are any interesting FCBs or anything that will add to the build.

edit: oh, bother... I did not realize I would have to take Elemental Spell multiple times to gain all the different energy types. I suppose having Lightning Blade/Shockbite would be helpful, though. Also looks like the only interesting FCB is gnome, but since Cha is a dump stat that may not be a great choice.

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