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Rudy2's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 212 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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It would seem to me that stacking fractions would greatly encourage players to do an awful lot of dipping into classes they might otherwise avoid due to the 0 BAB at first level.

Ah, see my interpretation is the reason they state what Remy quotes is because the saves work differently than a normal night's rest (primarily the no negative effect on a failed save), so they need to spell out that specific aspect, with the rest being standard for a night's rest. If they did not intend any class abilities to be restored, it's not clear why they wouldn't say that, instead of simply saying spells may not be prepared.

At the moment, though, I'm leaning toward allowing it to restore a ki pool, since a ki pool is not framed in daily uses, but not restore anything that is framed in uses per day.

Hmm.. a bit more research indicates that it can't really be abused to get more spells. Even *if* one interprets "Spells per day" to mean "spells per rest period", there is explicit text stating that any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against your spells per day (for any class) when either preparing or refreshing slots for spontaneous ones.

It's generally played that abilities that are "3/day" are renewed upon resting, but I don't know if that's the actual *rule*, or just a common convention. So, it's not clear if those are refreshed by the ability. Any idea?

Only thing that seems to be unambiguously affected, that I've seen so far, is a ki pool, as that does not specify anything in daily terms, but rather only that the ki is refreshed after rest. Even the barbarian's rage rounds list it as rounds per day, which are refreshed upon rest. It's not clear which of those takes precedence.


Oh, I understood you completely; I know you're not trying to change rules. My point was that there are things in Pathfinder that are not realistic, no matter *how* you attempt to describe them, and thus that style of explanation is not sufficient to make the game even remotely realistic. The absurdly high natural healing rate being one of them.

Or, say, if you're dropped into lava. "superior combat ability" isn't letting you roll with the punches of the lava, there. There's something fundamentally un-realistic about a high level character being able to survive, for a round or two, completely immersed in molten rock. There's no mundane explanation you can give for that.

Take the spell disintegrate; there's no mundane explanation for why such a spell would, well, disintegrate a 1st level fighter, while potentially leaving a higher level one merely wounded. The resistance to the spell is not combat ability.

Or, suppose I'm falling onto a barren wasteland from 500 feet up, with no convenient narrative trees to help my explanation. What then? Are you just saying that high level characters are fundamentally *luckier* when they fall, meaning a bog would form out of nowhere, despite the absence of water in the wasteland up to this point?

I'm all for making explanations more realistic when possible, but there are many cases where it simply is not.

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Elbedor, I sympathize with your position a lot, being someone who craves internal consistency in things. Unfortunately, internal consistency just isn't possible to achieve in the Pathfinder universe.

Even if one completely strips out everything "magical", the system still allows too many things that make no sense in the context of "reality".

Many of these things are done for convenience, such as the fact that carried weight has no effect on swimming, flying or acrobatics (so long as you stay under a generous weight limit).

There's the fact that mortal wounds heal at an astounding rate compared to reality (if in the equivalent of a hospital, you can heal 4 hit points a day, which for a first level character, means coming back from deaths door in a few days.

There's the fact that languages are ridiculously easy to learn.

There's the entire hit point mechanic, already addressed above.

You've got people who, with the right feats, can fire a crossbow every *second*. If you think about the actual actions involved in realistically loading and firing a crossbow, there's nothing human about that speed.

You've got innumerable other ridiculous combat things you can do.

And, again, this is all without anything the game labels as supernatural or magic.

The way I've dealt with this, and maybe this is helpful to you, is to think of PC class abilities, feats, Ex abilities, etc, as a kind of magic in and of themselves. The magic of fantastical human(oid) hyper-potential, or something along those lines. They just aren't the kind of magic that gets blocked by an anti-magic field, is all. Hit points, then, become a measurement of this non-"magic" magic reinforcing the body. Rage is the non-"magic" magic enhancing the Barbarian's muscle to the peak of human potential (Captain America style). The non-"magic" magic allows the halfling's arm to move at lightning speed at reloading the crossbow. Etc.

Essentially, then, the only people constrained by the actual laws of physics and nature are the poor 1st level commoners, lacking any access to these fantastical abilities.

That being said, if you find yourself craving a game more constrained by what "makes sense" narratively, I can recommend Dungeon World. I find myself enjoying both that, and Pathfinder, in very different contexts.

So, this Sun [Day] domain power takes ten minutes, and allows a target to be restored as if they had 8 hours rest. The only limitation that it places is that this does not allow them to prepare spells. Fine; cool.

According to RAW, in a 12th level party, when I could use this ability three times a day, I could spend half an hour total to restore the barbarian's rage rounds per day, restore the monk's ki, and restore the sorcerer's spells per day (since they aren't prepared?).

The last one I don't think I'd allow as a DM, as it doesn't seem RAI to restore the spells for one type of caster but not others. What about the other things? Can this ability restore ki? Rage rounds? Bardic music? Wild shape? Inquisitor bane/judgment? The cleric's own channel energy? Any other miscellaneous uses per day power?

Ah, dang. So, it looks like RAW, you can take the archetype combo, but the only switches you can make with the Qinggong monk are pretty horrible.

Quivering Palm for 0 ki 'share memory' spell, anyone? :/


The flavor text would seem to imply so, but there's nothing (that I can see) in the rules about it.

I'll grant you that thematically this doesn't make much sense, but there seem to be no conflicts between them. Yes, Martial Artist has no ki pool, but at the very least I *think* that a Martial Artist can use Qinggong Monk to switch out High Jump for Slow Fall, which is arguably more useful.

Is there some reason I'm missing that this can't be done?

So, with Instant Alchemy, you can make a alchemical creation as a full-round action. That's 6 seconds, mind you.

Take, say, Soul Stimulant, which has a base price of 300gp. If I'm understanding this correctly, you can make one of those in 6 seconds for the price of 100gp, and then sell it for 150gp? 50gp/6 seconds, it turns out, is 30,000gp in an hour. (Let's give our alchemist a break after an hour, shall we?) Provided you have someone to be handing you the materials. Philosopher's Stone gives you 50,000gp per month.

Now, of course, a reasonable DM is going to limit the materials that are available to craft these things, or limit the demand for them. But, still, there are an awful lot of different alchemical items to do this with, and an awful lot of places for a character to sell them.

Is there some other inherent limiting factor I'm missing here?

MordredofFairy wrote:

Capstone ability of the Protean Bloodline:

"Avatar of Chaos (Ex): At 20th level, you are infused with the essence of raw chaos. You gain immunity to acid, petrification, and polymorph effects (except when cast on self), as well as a +2 bonus to save DCs and on checks to overcome spell penetration against creatures with the lawful subtype."

So i am pretty certain meanwhile that it's an omission on the verdant one.

Nice catch, thanks; I'd say that cinches the interpretation for me as well, that the caster isn't meant to be prevented from polymorphing themselves.

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm thinking specifically of the Verdant Bloodline capstone, which makes you immune to Polymorph effects. Now, as far as I can tell, immunity is never defined. I'm curious if a 20th level Verdant Bloodline sorcerer could use their own Polymorph spells on themselves, in the same way that a caster's own spells ignore spell resistance.

I'd probably allow it, but is there any RAW to this?

Hmm, those were my thoughts, too.

I wonder, now, if it *is* a Permanent Ability Bonus, how should skill points from higher intelligence be handled? As a DM, I would say you choose them once, and the choice is set. I'm not sure if there is any precedent, though, that would make more sense.

Even if you *don't* think the double 14 hour thing works, then the Mastery Chemyst prestige class allows the doubling of mutagen lengths, which would push it over 24 hours for a single one, and it would definitely work there.

In either case, even if you need to go Master Chemyst for two levels (the minimum needed for Extend Mutagen), definitely something to consider for an INT-based Alchemist, I should think.

Falcar wrote:
It would need to be 24 hours of the same cognogen, if you could increase it to a single effect of 24 hours then it would but not off of two potions.

Why do you say that?

Belafon wrote:
If he brews a second dose any existing mutagen becomes inert...
As soon as you brew the "new" mutagen the one affecting you goes away. It takes a standard action to drink the new mutagen. I can see a GM allowing it, but RAW it doesn't work.

I guess we have different interpretations of the phrase "any existing mutagen becomes inert". I read that as referring to any existing dose that he has. Once he drinks a mutagen, he no longer *has* a mutagen, he's under the effects of a mutagen; I think that distinction is important. Having drunk it, there is no mutagen to become inert.

To back this up, note the previous line says " it remains potent until used." In other words, once you use the mutagen, it is no longer potent. Again: there is nothing to become inert.

Also potentially relevant is: "Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end.", which suggests that it's not the act of brewing a new mutagen, but of drinking a new one, which ends the previous effect.

So, suppose I'm a 14th level or higher Mind Chemist Alchemist, meaning I can create a Cognatogen that lasts 14 hours (or more at higher levels).

This seems to me to make it very plausible to literally never lose the effects of the Cognatogen: Drink one in the morning, spend an hour making a second one. In the evening, drink that one, then spend an hour making the next one, etc.

So, the question is, if you maintain the ability boost without end for 24 hours, does it become a Permanent ability boost? I'm not sure. I would probably say yes as a GM, but it's unclear by RAW. Of course, I would also say if you ever miss a dose, you lose all your bonus slots until you've maintained it for 24 hours again =D.

Secondary question is, do you still get the ability damage to physical scores, if the ability is never really ending? I'm thinking "yes" on that one, but I'm not 100% certain. I could see arguing either way.

Driver 325 yards wrote:

So the penalty, whichever you choose, is applied at the beginning of the round and persist on until you next round.

That said, if you are really switching to Crane Style afterwards, this is good news. Your attacks of opportunity from Crane Riposte do not suffer the minus to hit. Who cares about AC, it is already high using Crane Style and you can block.

Were you playing reverse psychology on these posters?

No, I wasn't; I was looking for input, and I now think you and a few previous posters are correct in that the combination won't work; The penalty once applied is stuck for the round; ah, well.

That being said, yes, it goes without saying that Crane Style is ridiculously good. Any combo with Combat Style Master that *doesn't* use Crane Style when it's not your turn is suspect. *Maybe* Snake style instead.

Thanks for all the input.

Maybe; personally I don't think it's overly powerful, given the amount of setup you need to implement it. That's a lot of feat investment.

There are lots of neat things you can do with Combat Style master. The one I'm wondering about though, involves the following:

Tiger Pounce, among other things, says that when you are using the style, you can apply the Power Attack penalty to your AC instead of your attack rolls.

Combat Style Master allows you to switch styles as a free action.

So, I'm wondering if you could use Tiger Style during your turn, applying the Power attack penalty to your AC, then at the end of your turn, switch to a different style (such as Crane), and thus have the Power Attack penalty go back to your attacks since you were no longer using the style.

In other words, on your turn the Power Attack penalty would apply to your AC, and on other people's turns it would apply to your attacks (obviously this means it would penalize your AoOs, but meh.

Seems kosher?

Yes, well, some players tend to get upset when I axe or change things that are just plain ridiculously dumb (like Punishing Kick's inability to knock a target into a dangerous space, or off a cliff).

This is another example, as is anything else for which the justification doesn't go beyond "And lo, the balance gods descended from the heavens, and decreed it so that Bracers of Armor shall not be used in conjunction with Magic Vestments"

I'm trying to win them over to my point of view, in a way.

EDIT: To fictionfan, I believe that only works as spells are being cast, and in any case I'm 99% certain you can't use it against items that are generating a spell effect. Regardless, Bracers of Armor don't give you the spell Mage Armor, even if they use it as a prerequisite.

I'm aware it's cheese; let's say I'm trying to make a point about the desirability of rule lawyering.

Just wanted to make sure I was interpreting everything correctly. Thanks.

So, if one of my players is wearing Bracers of Armor with, say, +3 armor and Medium Fortification on them, does this mean that I can have a baddie cast Mage Armor on them, causing them to lose the Medium Fortification? The wording of Bracers of Armor states that:

...If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities....

Which seems a pretty big weakness to exploit.

Obviously they would get a save against the Mage Armor (or Magic Vestments), but presuming they failed this would cancel their fortification, yes?

Ah, thanks. The point about swift actions is well made; at best, the ability can't be used until the second round of combat, or third if you want to activate bane first. Seems much more balanced in that light.


Anyone have any idea on this, or is it just extremely obvious to everyone but me :)?

Ansel Krulwich wrote:
A d7 is good for picking a random day of the week. Multiply it with a d4 to pick a specific day in a lunar cycle.

Multiplying it wouldn't work. (there would be no way to get a result of 13, for example, and some numbers would be more likely than others). Rather, it should be:

(7 x (1d4 - 1)) +1d7

This will generate numbers between 1 and 28 with equal probability.

My intuition tells me that this ability consumes a use of your judgment for the day, but the wording seems to indicate that, as long as you are currently using your judgment ability, the only limitation is the 1/creature/day thing, and the 1d4 rounds between uses. Is that accurate? It seems way too strong for something you can use on every single creature you meet in a given day.

At 20th level, an inquisitor can call true judgment down upon a foe during combat. Whenever an inquisitor uses her judgment ability, the inquisitor can invoke true judgment on a foe as a swift action. Once declared, the inquisitor can make a single melee (or ranged attack, if the foe is within 30 feet) against the target. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally and the target must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the inquisitor's level + the inquisitor's Wisdom modifier. Regardless of whether or not the save is made, the target creature is immune to the inquisitor's true judgment ability for 24 hours. Once this ability has been used, it cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.

mplindustries wrote:
Are you talking logically, or by the rules?

Both, really; I have a commitment I made as a DM to not enforce rules that can't be reasonably defended.

I think I like StreamOfTheSky's interpretation: you can right yourself as part of flying up, but it provokes since it's an awkward position.

Thanks, both.

So, suppose that you have a creature/player that has perfect fly and is just able to float everywhere at every which angle that they wish. They can float upsidedown, sideways, etc, etc.

Now, that creature/player voluntarily drops prone. Maybe they want to avoid some arrows; who knows.

Can that player/creature simply fly straight up from the ground on their next turn? If not, why not? Why would they have to stand up first?

Hmm, too bad, but I think Weirdo probably has the RAI. Otherwise, you could do, say, Unarmed Strike or Tiger Fork and get three groups. Crazy :)

I'm doing a fighter/monk gestalt build, which is why it became relevant. Guess I'll just have to be satisfied with the feats applying to all monk weapons :)

I think I'll let him choose between the +2 suggested by MechE to *just* get the size benefit, or the +3 to get all three benefits and the penalty. Perhaps it's not necessary to do the house rule at all, but I don't mind giving monks a little boost in the combat maneuver area.

The only thing left to do is come up with some flavor for the +2 version; possibly something like "Titanic Spirit", only usable if you have a ki pool. We'll see.

Thanks for the input!

Sorry, yeah, it's an armor enchantment from ultimate equipment, which counts as a +3 enhancement bonus

It does 4 things in total, 3 of them beneficial:

* First, the wearer is counted as one size larger for the purpose of combat maneuver limitations depending on size, such as what creatures you are able to trip.
* Second, once per day you can use enlarge person on yourself for 1 minute, even if you are not a humanoid
* Third, once per minute as a free action you can add the armor's enhancement bonus to a single strength check, combat maneuver check, or CMD check against one attack (though technically, since it's a free action, this last application would have limited use since it can't be used on your opponent's turn. I suspect the RAI is that it's a free action that can be used even when it's not your turn)
* Fourth, the armor's armor check penalty is increased by the armor's enhancement bonus.

One of my players argues that monks, if they can't deal damage like others, should at least be able to be at the top of the field in combat maneuvers, which is an argument that I am sympathetic to.

In any case, the player wants his monk to be able to get the Titanic ability, which can normally only be applied to armor (the wording and armor check penalty make it clear that this isn't something that's going to work as-in on Bracers of Armor). Most important he wants the part that makes his size count as one bigger for the purpose of maneuvers dependent on relative size.

I'm happy to oblige, but I'm having difficulty pricing that component on its own. That is, just taking the part that makes you count as one larger, apart from the ability to use enlarge person, or the armor check penalty.

Are there any other effects or items which give a similar boost? How would you go about pricing this? Input?

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Martial Mastery feat:

Suppose I have combat feats targeting a weapon in two groups, such as Temple Sword, which is both in the Monk Weapons Group, and the Heavy Blades group. Do those feats then apply to all weapons in *both* groups? From Unarmed Strikes to Greatswords?

If a negative status effect requires a saving throw, with the effect lasting for half the normal duration (being in terms of rounds) on a successful save, does the half duration have an implicit minimum of 1 round, or no?

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The law of balance overrides the law of internal consistency in all things. mmmm

Perhaps this is just a variance in interpretation, but my reading is that non-actions that are taken as part of another action require that action to be doable.

If you can't perform the action that the non-action is part of, then you don't get to do the non-action.

In other words, if shifting grips is a non-action that is part of the attack action, then you need to be able to do the attack action before you can shift grips.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
A fix would be to add a clause to the Snap Shot feat to allow the drawing of ammunition as a non-action, or to state that the free action to draw ammunition can, like speaking, by done when it's not your turn.

I think either would work just fine; the problem is that there are many feats that implicitly change things like that without stating the technically necessary explicit modifications.

But this is why this game needs to be run by thinking humans, after all :)

I honestly think both interpretations are valid, to be honest. In any case, my view is that when you've knocked the arrow, your hand is already right where it needs to be to draw the arrow back. There's practically speaking no movement to put it back "on" the bow. This is a big difference from a hand off doing some other action.

From a purely technical viewpoint, if you say shifting grips is a non-action performed as part of an attack, you still *cannot* do it if you have a two-handed weapon held in one hand. You cannot make an attack from such a position, so there's no action to combine a grip-shift into.

As far as Snap Shot, I tend to assume that feats that grant a specific ability override any general rules regarding any actions needed to perform that ability. Thus, the feat would allow you to draw the arrows needed outside your turn, make the attacks, etc.

Far more likely that that is just a mistake in Dalsine's stats (there are plenty of those in those adventures, after all)

No, no; I perfectly understood the argument being made, I just don't agree with the logic of it. Specifically this step:

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
If it's a free action or not an action to add that free hand, then it's the same action, if any, to add your free hand to a melee weapon!

Drawing the arrow, nocking it, drawing it back and firing are all related actions with the same focus. I would regard both the nocking, and drawing back the arrow with your second hand as non-actions that are part of the attack. Using your second hand is a necessary, integral part of the attack.

In contrast, if you have a hand off of a melee weapon deflecting an arrow, it's off doing its own thing; placing it back on the melee weapon is *not* part of the attack. It's not necessary to attack if the weapon is one-handed, and there is no attack to be made if the weapon is 2-handed.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

If its pretty obvious that the creature falls into a certain category let them roll (its a giant. Roll knowledge local) If the creature's appearance is misleading (ie a bone golem and not a skeleton) have them roll a d20 and then look at their character sheet.

"Nat 20!"

"You have no idea what that is mr cleric"

"..... oh hell..."

In that case, specifically if the Cleric rolled high enough that he *would* have identified it had it been undead, then I believe I would tell them that they know it's *not* an undead creature. The justification being that if you know enough about a subject, you're able to recognize when creatures are not part of that subject.

I would not, of course, tell him more than that.

I admit that the analogy is not a particularly strong one so, as per my previous post, I'm willing to drop that line of argumentation. To restate the second line of argument, though:

All the examples given of non-actions are things that are necessary parts of that action. That is, not all necessary actions are non-actions, but all non-actions are necessary.

Re-gripping a longsword held in one hand with a second hand is not necessary to attack with it.

And, again, a two-handed weapon held in one hand cannot be attacked with, so there is no action to combine non-actions into.

rangerjeff wrote:
And with longstrider on, I'll still have my 30' movement.

Reduce Person doesn't affect your movement (I know, that doesn't make sense; it's a "balance" thing)

I can see your point in that respect; I thought my second argument was the stronger one in any case, so I'm perfectly willing to drop the drawing a weapon comparison.

If you understood they weren't permanent, then I'm confused as to your question. Permanent negative levels do not require the player to "retool" their entire sheet. It's pretty simple, actually:

-5 max hp for each negative level
-1 to all d20 rolls for each negative level (note you don't have to change all your skills, just take off for the negative levels whenever you roll a d20)
-1 to your level for level-dependent effects for each negative level.

It's barely more complicated than applying an effect like sickened to them, really, which just applies -2 to their d20 rolls, and weapon damage rolls.

If your players have difficulty with this level of math, then perhaps they should be studying arithmetic with their time instead.

If you're concerned with the permanence, and don't want players to have to shell out 1,000 gold to remove one, then just make them temporary negative levels. Players get a new saving throw each day to remove a temporary negative level, and you could just make the DC for the better resurrection spells lower.

Ilja wrote:
Rudy2 wrote:
I don't think that drawing your weapon is part of the attack; that was the point of my analogy. Neither is placing a second hand on the weapon part of attacking.
The difference is that drawing a weapon is actually specified in the rules, while placing a second hand on is not. I'm unsure if you claim what's in your quote as "these are the rules" or "this is how I would rule it", just thought I'd add that.

It is in the rules, yes, but the argument being made was one from a standpoint of common sense, not the rules. My point was that, if you argue that re-gripping a weapon is part of an attack, and therefore a non-action, you could make the same argument about drawing a weapon. Since the rules specify that drawing a weapon is a separate action, and therefore not part of an attack, it invalidates the first argument as well.

I then went on to make the separate argument that re-gripping a one-handed weapon is not a necessary part of attacking with it, and therefore cannot be thought of as a non-action in relation to the attack. You cannot make an attack with a two-handed weapon held in one hand, and therefore there is no attack action with respect to which to take a claimed non-action like re-gripping.

I don't think that drawing your weapon is part of the attack; that was the point of my analogy. Neither is placing a second hand on the weapon part of attacking. If it's a one handed weapon, you can attack just fine with the hand you have on it, thus it would be silly to assert that regripping with two hands is an integral part of attacking with it. If it's a two handed weapon, there's no attack to be made.

It case it wasn't clear, Xenh, the no doubt lovely Roberta is unleashing sarcasm on you. A "permanent negative level" in Pathfinder isn't actually a lost character level, but just a penalty that can be removed with the right spells, to the tune of about 1,000 gold.

Here's how I view it, if it's unclear:

Reload: Reloading a ranged weapon is an action whose time varies based on the specific weapon, and any feats/special abilities your character has. For a light crossbow, for example, it's a move action. The action includes removing one hand from the weapon if it is a two-handed weapon, retrieving the ammunition, placing it into the weapon, and replacing your hand on the weapon if it is a two-handed weapon.

So, in that sense, placing your hand back on a weapon as part of the reload is a non-action, yes. It is "so much a part of" the action of reloading, because the action is moving from a state of existence where you have an empty crossbow held in two hands, to having a loaded crossbow held in two hands.

In terms of a melee weapon, if you argue that placing a second hand back on the weapon is "so much a part of" attacking, you could easily argue the same thing about drawing the weapon.

If it's, for example, a longsword, placing a second hand on it certainly isn't an integral part of the attack. It it's a greatsword held in one hand, then you can't make an attack anyway, so there's no attack action to combine a re-grip into.

As said before, because when reloading the hand is already focused on dealing with the crossbow, etc. It's right there. If you have a hand off of a melee weapon then it's because that hand is performing some unrelated action; it has a separate focus.

Your interpretation is valid, don't misunderstand me. Making re-gripping a free action doesn't contradict any of the three conclusions in my earlier post, and thus I can't argue that your interpretation is wrong. Neither, however, have you convinced me that my interpretation is wrong.

Between the two consistent interpretations, I chose mine for balance reasons.

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