|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
Removed, eh? That's a shame; I thought that was an excellent balancing mechanism. I'll probably keep it in my home games, anyway.
2 levels of monk gets two feats, even if they aren't floating, the amazing Sohei ability to always act in the surprise round, a +3 to will saves versus the Brawler's zero. Sohei doesn't lose any BAB on a full attack, and the 1 BAB on a single attack isn't going to make much difference.
You can't combine Brawler with either of its two "base" classes, Fighter or Monk. At least, that's what the playtest thing I downloaded indicates.
And, looking at it, I don't see a good reason to dip into Brawler over Sohei, to be honest.
Of the ACG classes, the one that looks most promising for *this* build is Swashbuckler, since you can easily make unarmed strikes do piercing damage with a feat, thus qualifying for the Swashbuckler's various abilities. I'll have to think about it more, though.
At high levels you can do some cool stuff. For example, the Ki Mystic's ability to re-roll stuff at level 5 synergizes very well with the 11th level aura the Iroran Paladin gets... but that's a 16th level minimum combo, there.
But, no, I don't see much reason to dip into anything but Sohei for the monk. Even if you do get UMD as a class skill, it's still going to be a long time before you can use the wands reliably. And the majority of the archetypes rely on Wisdom as a primary stat.
Wanderer [human only] would be alright if you wanted to go into Living Monolith. It gives you the endurance feat, and some nice spell like abilities. Nothing amazing.
Monk of the Four Winds would likewise be ok if your DM allowed the paladin levels to stack with monk levels to determine elemental fist damage.
Hmmm... I just noticed that, by RAW, there's nothing stopping you from using a Maneuver Master's Flurry of Maneuvers while wearing armor. It replaces Flurry of Blows, and says nothing about working like flurry of blows. That's probably not RAI, though. That's a strong possibility, though, if you can do flurry of maneuvers in armor.
I think the writer of the archetype sort of assumed it would go without saying from the name and description. No, there is no formal requirement listed, but I would imagine it would be a rare GM indeed who would let you get away with worshiping another deity :)
Your attempt to combine the "Defensive Strategist" trait with the Iroran Paladin, though, is a noble endeavor, and I fault you not for it =D
Hmm... on the one hand, the talk about the clothes fitting perfectly, and transforming does tend to make me think they were intended to actually change the clothing.
On the other hand, from a game balance perspective, and from the spells involved, it should be an illusion effect.
I want it to be the former as a player, but the latter as a GM. I'm not quite enough of a hypocrite to try and have it both ways though =D
I think I'll go with Nefreet's argument for my games, and limit it to things actually under "clothing", but have it actually transform. Seems like a fine compromise to me, and makes the sleeves still very much worth their price until you otherwise need the bracers slot, such as for the certainly broken Bracers of Falcon's Aim. Perhaps the balance rules are just not as strenuously applied to bracers? ;D
At level 2, no, but before level 2 you could. Like, before playing the session that will bring you to level 2, yes?
Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:
At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level.
If I'm reading this correctly, on the slow advancement track, I could play the first two sessions with power attack, and then switch before the third session (the one that would bring me to level 2).
One thing to be aware of is there aren't missions that need to be completed for each faction anymore, just a secondary success condition for the group and the potential to earn additional boons for members of a faction that don't always depend on doing certain things like the old faction missions.
Oh, that's new! So, you're saying my prestige won't be so dependent on my skills in general?
I don't think I want to go the pawn route, so it's probably going to be Silver Crusade based on what people have said... it's the most straightforward. I don't think "Rock" has the subtlety for Andor.
So, I've been out of PFS for about two years, and thinking about playing again today or tomorrow.
My idea is a Tiefling (Demon-Spawn) Paladin (Iroran Paladin) who will later take a single dip into Sohei in order to flurry with his Sansetsukon.
Point buy: Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 15
So, yeah, he's an idiot. He tries to follow the path laid out by his adoptive father, an Iroran Monk, to seek perfection in himself... but he's not always sure what that means.
First skill point will probably be into Diplomacy (though I'm open to alternate suggestions), so he'll start with a +7, and then the single skill point he gets each level will probably go into various class skills, Sense Motive, etc., to get the little boost on them. Once he dips into Sohei at his fifth level, I'll put one in Perception.
Now, I'm fully aware that no matter which faction he takes, there are some faction missions he won't be able to do, being mentally challenged. Which faction, or factions, are the *most* compatible, though?
In what I like to call my "reasonable GM" mode (though players may not always agree :) ), I would let the effective monk level granted by Iroran Paladin to stack with actual monk level as granted by monk levels in order to determine unarmed damage. However, since the Sohei, as you point out, does not increase unarmed damage, those levels should not stack, I would think, leaving you with only half of your Paladin levels if you combine with Sohei.
On the one hand, I agree with your interpretation that Monastic Legacy *could* work, but on the other hand, it seems kind of "cheating" to take half of your Paladin levels (since they aren't "monk" levels) and add half of them to the effective monk level (which is itself 1/2 of your Paladin level) to get unarmed strike damage. All in all, I have no idea what the RAI would be here, and little idea even what the RAW is.
Were a player to come to me wanting to do this, the way I would run it is this: Take half of the levels you have beyond your "effective" monk level for unarmed damage, and add them to that effective monk level. This to me seems the most fair.
For example, normally a Monk (vanilla) 4 / Fighter 10 would have a monk level of 9 for the purposes of unarmed damage if they took the Monastic Legacy feat. They are taking half of the levels they have that aren't granting them unarmed strike damage (5 being half of 10) and adding them to the levels that do.
Similarly, if a Player had a Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 6 / Monk (Sohei) 8, they have an effective monk level of 3 (1/2 of their Paladin level) for the purposes of unarmed damage. I would allow them to take half of the remainder of their character level, 5 (5 being half of 11) and add it to the 3 in order to get an effective level of 8 for unarmed monk damage.
That's not by any means RAW, but it does come close to what the original balance of the feat is supposed to accomplish, I think.
No, the FAQ doesn't address it.
a) You're right, there's no reason for there to be an 8th level section. If your GM is kind, they may let you lose the Wholeness of Body at 7th in order to wait and gain an 8th level ability once you reach level 8.
b) Purity of Body cannot be replaced by RAW. However, given that it is explicitly mentioned as an example, you have a good RAI reason to think that is just an oversight. So, I hate to be cliche, but: Ask your GM.
c) No, Slow Fall is a single ability. If you replace it, you replace all instances of it.
I did this once, and it's a bad idea. Pathfinder cannot be made "realistic" without making it so convoluted as to be unplayable.
Next you're adding hex grids, and facing systems.
Then you're adding in wounds systems, because if they get hit in the arm, logically that's going to impede their sword-swinging ability.
Before you know it, it takes a three hour session to run a simple combat.
OP, I sympathize with your desires here, I really do, but this just isn't the system for it.
The Ki Pool, though, would only make his unarmed strikes count as magic, as far as I can tell. And it would not advance beyond level 4, so it wouldn't get to silver/cold iron/lawful/adamantine, etc., would would be a big pain in terms of DR.
What makes the possibility tempting is the Sorcerer casting you get on top of it. Low-level, but you could get a lot of utility out of that, between mirror image, enlarge person, etc.
Appreciate all the input, and always appreciate more. Probably won't do any more major updates to the guide until the weekend, though; work to do, and all that. :)
I suppose wearing a Cord of Stubborn Resolve would get around that though.
If your DM allowed custom items, so that you could also put a strength bonus on there, that would be great. If not, though, the build I desccribed can have the fatigue mercy on his lay on hands, so can remove his fatigue using LoH 2+CHA/day if he needs to move.
I don't think it's clear from the description, but you can't necessarily assume it's a non-action.
However, since the archetype does define the other actions for ki usage, I would rule as a GM that spending ki to make a grab attack is part of the grab attack, and thus not its own action. Thus, leaving your swift action free. However, I can easily imagine other GMs saying it should be a swift action, since other things that you spend ki on are almost always swift actions.
Added a Prestige Classes section. Am I wrong in thinking the following thing is pretty cool?
After Monk (Sohei) 6 / Paladin 4, do:
Fighter (Unbreakable) 1 > Living Monolith 1 > Stalwart Defender.
The requirements of Living Monolith and Stalwart Defender line up well, especially since Living Monolith 1 gets you a free Toughness feat.
Enlarged, polearm flurrying, stalwart defender? Can use Lay on Hands to flip off his own fatigue if needed.
Yeah, it's clear that Champion of Irori was written for Paladin/Monk, despite the fact that prestige classes aren't supposed to do that (that is, they are supposed to be based on abilities, not classes).
The second level ability is key, as you say. With a Ring of Ki Mastery, you spend 1 ki to get a Smite Evil use.
Everything after that is fairly uninspiring in my opinion. The third level ability is nice if you're doing an unarmed build. However, since this build requires at least 3 levels of monk anyway, it lends itself much better to the Sohei Polearm flurrier, in my opinion. I'm now thinking something like.
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 2 > Monk 6 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 2 > Paladin 4 > Monk 8 > Paladin 7, ending at
Monk 8 / Paladin 7 / Chevalier 3 / Champion of Irori 2
The fourth level ability is terrible, since as a reach build, you're trying *not* to be adjacent to enemies. The fifth level ability is useless because you don't have wisdom.
If I was doing an unarmed build, the third level of Champion of Irori is probably worth taking, but I wouldn't go any farther than that. Probably:
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 4 > Monk 3 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 3 > Paladin 11
ending at: Monk 3 / Chevalier 3 / Champion of Irori 3 / Paladin 11
But, honestly, I do think this combo is much better suited to the Sohei version.
I'm trying to work out the best way to build it.
Monk (Sohei) 6 / Chevalier 3 / Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 9 / Champion of Irori 2 seems the best place to end up. Not sure the best order, though.
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 4 > Monk 3 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 2 > Monk 6 > Paladin 9, perhaps.
You can Smite Evil, Smite Chaos, and have Personal Trial. Does take a while to get going, though, and lags behind the other builds at levels 8-10
Alternately, you could tack it on after the Sohei flurry is reached:
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 4 > Monk 6 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 2 > Paladin 9.
Need to ponder it a bit before adding it to the guide. Thoughts are very welcome.
My a strict RAW reading, Monastic Legacy is useless:
Monastic Legacy wrote:
Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage.
So, in say, a Paladin 8 / Monk 1 build, by RAW, you'd be adding half of your non-monk levels (4) to your monk level (1) to determine your effective monk level (5) for your based unarmed strike damage. But Paladin 8 already gives you an effective monk level of 4.
However, a GM might allow you to stack half your paladin level (4) with your effective monk level (also 4), to get an effective monk level of 8 for unarmed strike damage. Effectively, it would be giving you full monk unarmed strike damage progression from your Paladin levels. I'd definitely allow it, as it's not overpowered:
It's giving you +1 average damage at Paladin 4-11, +2.5 damage at Paladin 12-15, +3.5 damage at Paladin 16-19. Good for a later pick, but not overpowered.
I'll add a note about it.
Is Swashbuckler one of those new classes? I'm not familiar.
However, I should add a note that anyone dipping into Paladin 2 levels for Divine Grace is likely to prefer this archetype. The only exceptions I can think of are if you really want the armor proficiency as well, or if you're dipping Divine Hunter for the Precise Shot.
Oh! Weird; d20pfsrd lists it as third party under the Paladin page; "Jon Brazer Enterprises". Not the first mistake on that website, though.
Thank you for correcting me; I'll definitely make a note of it under the Tiefling entry in that case.
EDIT: Ah, it seems that it was a third party option that was later made an official one by the Advanced Race Guide.
Haven't looked through the guide yet but monk's robe should be a good investment to increase unarmed damage. Treated as a monk of five levels higher so 1/2 paladin level +5.
I have them in the guide, but I consider them a very poor choice. Even if you can convince your DM that they should increase your effective Monk level by 5 (by RAW reading, they would not be helpful to you at all), that's at best a 1.5 or 2 damage increase. You're much better off using the same item slot, to get a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes +2, then treat yourself to something nice with the 1000 gp you saved.
It's generally understood that, whatever the exact wording, that when flurrying you treat BAB from your monk levels as equal to your monk level; BAB from other classes is added to that normally. So, a Monk 1 / Paladin 10 would be treated as having a +11 BAB when flurrying.
If you're not 100% convinced, the Pathfinder RPG Conversion Guide includes the following text:
...monk’s base attack bonus when performing a flurry of blows is now equal to his level. His attacks are made as if using Two-Weapon Fighting (and its improvements at later levels). Table 3–10 summarizes these bonuses. Change your flurry of blows base bonuses to match these values (plus any increases to your base attack bonus from other classes, which might give you additional attacks with your primary strike).
As Flawed said, you do lose out on the second flurry attack monks get at Monk 8 (though the Sohei/Paladin Hybrid will get eventually get there, at character level 12, under the suggested build). That's much less important, though, than getting the first extra attack at full BAB, and the ability to use ki to add a third attack at this full BAB.
I understand, and I'll definitely add it as a good possibility in there in the feats section, but I just don't personally think initiative is worth investing in for this guy. For example, the Noble Scion feat only puts him on par with higher dex characters, it doesn't surpass them.
It's not an arms race as I see as a good investment, especially as he'll have Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon in most cases, letting him do battlefield control even when flat-footed. To have a reasonable chance of going first, you'd need Noble Scion, Reactionary and Improved Initiative, and you'd still be beaten by a lot of other builds.
@Flawed: There is no official FAQ about it, I don't believe, but James Jacobs has essentially said that "charisma" is a type of bonus, and thus does not stack with itself. Now, yes, JJ is not an "official" rules source, but most DMs (myself included) take his stance on rules seriously when there is nothing contradicting him.
That being said, even if you could add double your charisma bonus, it would still be capped by your armor, and so wouldn't be as amazing as you might think. Not worth a dip in my opinion, but I'll add it as a note to the dips section when I get to that.
As far as Noble Scion, I'll add that to the feats section, but I don't consider it worth taking myself. First, you're not going to be completely dumping dexterity, and it replaces dex with cha for initiative, it doesn't add cha. On the whole, Improved Initiative will be better, especially since you don't have to take it at first level. I wouldn't bother with that feat myself either, though, as this guy won't have good initiative regardless, and he always gets to act in the surprise round no matter what his initiative is.
Okay, first, here's what I added about Mounted Combat. Let me know if anyone disagrees; I have zero experience playing Mounted Combat characters.
For the Sohei Hybrid only, this is a possibility; Sohei can use their bonus feats for Mounted Combat feats if they desire, and have the Monastic Mount ability. However, note that at higher levels your mount will have very limited survivability. You don’t have a Divine Bond for a mount, and the temporary hit points from Monastic Mount won’t get you that far. One good hit and the horse is dead. If you have access to some way to turn your mount into an animal companion, then this gets upgraded from Orange to Green.
That’s a tricky proposition, however; the only way I can see to do it without completely changing the build into something else is if you GM allows the Eldritch Heritage trait to be applied to the Sylvan Wildblooded Bloodline to grab the Animal Companion. It’s not clear whether that is allowed by RAW or not, but I would lean toward no.
I'm honestly very unimpressed by Blessed Touch, though it could be acceptable if the GM was one that allowed retraining of traits later.
I also think that if you're going to go without armor, then this archetype is not worth taking; just be a monk instead. That being said, the Dragon Style feats are a really good idea to just take as normal feats for the Flurry Paladin version of this build. Dragon Ferocity does unfortunately require Stunning fist, though.
Hmm... combining the two suggestions, could you take Dragon Style as a normal feat at, say, level 5, and then dip into Unarmed Fighter, getting Dragon Ferocity as the free style feat? Or is it unambiguous that the free style feat is only the ones that actually say "Style"?