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CactusUnicorn wrote:

Thanks. I'm going to tell him to get ant haul. Muleback cords seem like a good investment, I'll ask the GM (my brother) to have us find it. For armor, he has a hamaraki which weighs one pound. He will probably get a dagger which is another 1 pound. The sack is 5 which brings it up to 7 as the rest is in the sack. We don't play with clothing weights.

On another note, how good of an investment do you think slashing grace (dagger) is. It would take up 2 feat slots, but increase his damage by like 8.

Also, have the character carry around antiplague and antitoxin. They will be useful to ward off disease and poison STR loss. They could be a life saver if used judiciously.

Weapon damage is going to be terrible without using DEX for damage instead of STR. If the character ever wants to get into melee weapon damage, then Slashing Grace is very good. That said, it can be avoided if they just use spells and simply ignore STR/DEX to damage.

Chill Touch eliminates the STR/DEX issue. The character could sneak attack for 1d6 Chill Touch + 3d6(?) Sneak Attack at level 5. That's a decent attack at level 5. When more spell slots are available, Shocking Grasp makes for a bigger hit (5d6 + 3d6 Sneak Attack), but you have to cast once per successful hit.

Range Touch Sneak Attacks are ideal though, if a little harder to pull off. There are a lot more options and it keeps the character away from as many grapples.


CactusUnicorn wrote:
So, how much of a problem will this be.

Assume the player always preps the spell Ant Haul (STR 3 = 1 less spell known effectively). They cast it approximately twice per day at level 5. That will give the character triple carrying capacity for the entire day. That puts a light load limit of 30 lbs on the character, and a heavy load of 90 lbs. That's easily manageable.

Have them carry around a couple scrolls to solve Climb and Swim issues:

- Monkey Fish (25gp - from the Advanced Class Guide) gives a climb and swim speed
- Touch of the Sea (25gp - Advanced Player's Guide) wouldn't hurt either.

That takes care of a lot of the issues of a 3 STR.

If they ever meet a Shadow or other strength draining monster? Well, that's just life (or death I guess).


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

No it would be more like....You would fight 1-2 waves of enemies per average fight and then the big fights would be around 3-4

On top of that the enemies would be more tactical, blindsiding the wizard crippling the frontliner with tanglefoot bags. Just making it more so that the party has to be more clever in how they fight.

POSTERITY NOTE: I'm one of those style of GMs where it isn't a 3-4 round fight as typical fodder. My combats usually have more movement, tactics, terrain, foes, thought, etc. Barbarians can and have run out of rage in my games.

Here's the basic trick to solve your problem: a barbarian does not need to rage every round in every fight.

In most fights, barbarians don't need raging DPS and can get away with a nice 2d6+4 Great Sword attack (@ 1st) just fine. They also don't have to keep raging when the fight is effectively over and the party is mopping up the last couple of schmucks. A barbarian can hit plenty hard even when fatigued.

Also, consider getting some supplies that can really extend your day on doing close-to-rage damage.

- Potions of Enlarge Person (50gp) is a major boost on damage
- Potions of Bull's Strength (300gp)

Scrolls of those are half-price. They are useful for the fights you can pre-buff and have the appropriate caster in the party.

At level 6+, getting an ioun of spell storing (level 1 spell), a few Pearls of Power (also level 1) and getting the party cleric to charge up a Divine Favor in the ring is an excellent boost. If you have the trait Fate's Favored... even better.


Core is very limiting, but it is limiting on most everyone else too.

With the things that you are focusing on:

- Only options from the corerules or the equipment compendium
- Keep the bloodline and the lightning aspect
- Damage oriented build

There are FEW spells that are electric to use your bloodline ability. Most of your career is going to be using the lower level versions, so make sure those work.

- Shocking Grasp (1st)
- Lightning Bolt (3rd)
- Chain Lightning (6th)

The array of stats that you displayed is great for a control sorcerer, but not so good for your electric bloodline - damage orientation. So, arrange slightly to make them more advantageous to your preferred specialty.

S:14 D:12 C:14 I: 14 W: 7 Ch:17 (20 pt human)

All told, you lost +1 DC (~1 feat) later in life to Lightning Bolt to make Shocking Grasp a worthwhile power to start. Levels 1-5 will work much better for you.

Feats:
- Spell Focus: Evocation (human)
- Spell Specialization: Shocking Grasp (1st)
- *choice* (3rd)
- *choice* (5th)
- Empower Spell (7th)

At 1st Level, you have the following options.

- Full Attack - 2x claws (1d3+2)
- Move and Attack - Shocking Grasp (3d6+3)

NOTE: If you miss with the Shocking Grasp, you have the option to use claws the next time to land it. Also, Shocking Grasp is +3 to hit vs. metal clad foes, so easier to hit than typical.

Items of Interest:

- Amulet of Mighty Fists (of Spell Storing) - this will allow you to preload one extra Shocking Grasp into your first hit in combat. This will give you a huge hit to start a fight and useful for a long while.

Example: At level 5, you can Move and Attack to land a Shocking Grasp (5d6+5) on a successful hit, and then discharge the amulet Shocking Grasp for another 5d6+5. 45 average damage on an opening hit at level 5 is BRUTAL. Alas, due to Core Only, you are stuck with that as a cap for a long time.


Name Violation wrote:
dont you need 2 hands for a long spear and a free hand for flagbearer? how are you planning to wield 3 hands worth of objects?

1. Attach the flag to a polearm (long spear) per Ultimate Equipment.

2. Wield the longspear.

If the question comes down to this line (highlighted below): "You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus."

I personally have not played under a GM yet that said that holding onto a polearm with two hands is also not being held with one hand. Most interpret it to mean that you have to be holding/wielding the flag, which requires at least one hand, instead of having it strapped to your back.

Banner of the Ancient Kings specifically calls out to place it on a long spear, so that issue, if it ever did arise, becomes moot at that point.

***********************************

BANNER

Price 1–20 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

This is a banner, flag, or pennant. You tie it to a pole, lance, or polearm. Most are woven, dyed, or painted with a pattern or symbol, such as a knight's crest or a country's flag. A simple banner with one field color and a simple insignia such as a weapon or shield costs 1 gp. A banner with two to four field colors and a complex insignia such as a lion or dragon costs 5 gp. A detailed banner with four or more field colors and a very complex insignia, such as a heraldic device with eight or more sections, costs 20 gp.

Flagbearer (Combat)

Prerequisites: Cha 15.

Benefit: As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus. If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).

Banner of the Ancient Kings

Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 18,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

DESCRIPTION

This tattered white canvas banner looks like an old piece of sailcloth, or perhaps a winding shroud—a 4-foot-by-6-foot rectangle with loops that can fit over a spear haft or pole running up one side. If mounted on a longspear or pole at least 8 feet in length, the banner shifts in appearance to match the heraldry or coat of arms of the person who attached it. If that person has no device, the flag instead displays a device that echoes the owner’s personality (such as a favorite animal, favored weapon, or holy symbol of the wielder’s deity).

When carried into battle, a banner of the ancient kings confers several benefits. As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands, its carrier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks. In addition, when so wielded, it grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects. If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings—once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect.

If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.


GonzDave wrote:
Thanks for all the help! How do I go about retraining to get my 1 st feat changed.

If you have yet to play level 2, then you can change it for free at anytime.

If you have played at level 2, you will have to retrain using the retrain rules. You'll have to make a decision whether it is worth it at that point. If you are close to level 3, for example, you can get Flagbearer feat then, which is the key feat for the flagbearer build.

Retrain Rules.

Feat
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Summary for Retraining a Feat in PFS:

5 Prestige Points = 1 Prestige x 5 days of training (for a feat)
50 gold x character level = 10 gold x Character Level x 5 days of training (for a feat)


Archer bard is VERY feat intensive (requires all feats moreorless). Angelic wings requires two feats. These two things clash too much to work out well at all.

That makes flag-bearer bard as the option to go. This will give you GREAT party contribution in the form of big buffs at minimal resource cost. The biggest thing to go for is to get boot strapped fast.

Consider, you will the need Angelic Blood (and another feat for wings) and Flagbearer feats to get to the build you want. Angelic Blood does pretty much nothing for you at level 1. Flagbearer sets half the build for you at level 1. You should consider picking Flagbearer instead as your level 1 feat.

You don't actually need the Angelic Blood feat until level 7. And that is only if you plan to retrain your level 9 feat to Angelic Wings at level 10. That is the earliest path into those wings.

So, your level 3 and level 5 feats are also free to play around with to better the flag-bearer part of the build. If you plan to use a long spear (advisable with the Banner of the Ancient Kings), then you will be AOO fishing. Combat Reflexes could be good. Getting the buffs up early is also good, so Improved Reflexes is noteworthy.

Here is an example feat order that might suit you:

1st: Flagbearer
3rd: Combat Reflexes
5th: Improved Initiative
7th: Angelic Blood
9th: Placeholder (retrained to Angelic Wings at 10th)

Items you will want:

- Long Spear
- Banner of the Ancient Kings (18k - around 7th to 8th)

Archetype that might interest you: Arcane Duelist

- Arcane Strike as a bonus feat
- Arcane Bond: cheaper long spear upgrades equals DR penetration faster
- Disruptive for extra enemy spell caster debuffing


Class: Arcanist
Archetype: Occultist (included below)

Summon a monster as a standard action that lasts for minutes per level using the Conjurer's Focus ability.

****************************************

Occultist (Archetype)
Not all arcanists peer inward to discern the deepest secrets of magic. Some look outward, connecting with extraplanar creatures and bartering for secrets, power, and favor.

Planar Spells An occultist adds all planar ally spells to her spell list (using her arcanist level as the cleric level), and treats plane shift as a 5th-level arcanist spell.

Conjurer's Focus (Sp):An occultist can spend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to cast summon monster I. She can cast this spell as a standard action, and the summoned creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing her to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level), at the cost of an additional point from her arcane reservoir per spell level. An occultist cannot have more than one summon monster spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster effect immediately ends. This ability replaces the arcanist exploit gained at 1st level.

Planar Contact (Sp): At 7th level, an occultist can cast augury once per day and contact other plane once per week, using her arcanist level as her caster level. This ability replaces the arcanist exploit gained at 7th level.

Perfect Summoner (Su):At 20th level, an occultist can use her conjurer's focus without spending points from her arcane reservoir, and the creatures summoned last until dismissed. This ability replaces magical supremacy.


Transmutation Wizard

Level 1-2: Enlarge or Reduce Person (okay, not quite changing shape), 5X Alter Self scroll for 2PP (you did say PFS)

Level 3-4: Alter Self (4+ times per day with INT 14 and arcane bond)

Level 5-6: Beast Shape I = Bear Form! (3+ times per day with INT 14), Monstrous Physique I (to cast while shifted)

Level 7+ = LOTS of shifting per day (3x 4th level spell slots, 3x 3rd level spell slots, 4X 2nd level spell slots)

Start out with a healthy physical stat array.

S: 18 D: 14 C: 14 I: 14 W: 10 Ch: 8 (20 pt human, +1 extra STR from transmutation wizard at level 1)

Arcane Bond = Amulet of Mighty Fist - enchanted at half cost.

Use some spells for longer duration defenses (Mage Armor, False Life, Ablative Barrier, etc.)

Option: Take a level of unchained barbarian at 6th character level for rage as well as Furious on the arcane bone to punch thru DR vs. silver/cold iron as early as 6th level.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Latest Summary Post:

- Added Position #4 (this is changing the rules for masterpieces to not be affected by a bard's scaling action economy, so is probably out of scope of this FAQ, but it is included for completeness)

- Started a masterpiece list that the FAQ committee should definitely include in their analysis.

I think we are still looking for strong masterpieces. We need to include other interactions (items, feats, other abilities) as well.

**********************************************

Position #1 - Masterpieces are Bardic Performance are Masterpieces

Position #1 FAQ:

Masterpieces are bardic performances and follow bardic performance rules. If a bard starts a new masterpiece or other bardic performance, any existing masterpiece effect immediately ends. A bard does not need to spend a free action to maintain masterpieces, nor does a masterpiece effect immediately end if the bard falls unconscious, etc. The masterpiece effects linger until their duration expires, or until a new masterpiece or other bardic performance is started.

Example: If a bard has activated Triple Time on an ally, whenever they start to activate another bardic performance (or masterpiece), Triple Time wears off immediately, no matter where the ally is.

Position #2 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. Any masterpiece that is completed and has a duration independent of the bard no longer counts against the maintained performance limit.

Position #2 FAQ:

Masterpieces can be separated into two categories: maintained and independent. A masterpiece is maintained if it requires the bard to spend actions in subsequent rounds or else the masterpiece will end. A masterpiece is independent of the bard if no action must be taken after the masterpiece is activated for the effect to continue for its entire duration.

A maintained masterpiece immediately ends if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. An independent masterpiece does not end if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. It lasts until its duration expires.

Example: If a bard has completed the activation of the Triple Time masterpiece on an ally, the ally retains the bonus even if the bard starts another Bardic Performance or Masterpiece.

Example: If a bard has the masterpiece The Depths of the Mountain activated, since it is a maintained Masterpiece, the bard must end that masterpiece if Inspire Courage is started.

Position #3 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #3 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.

Position #4 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #4 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. It is not possible for a bard of sufficient level to activate masterpieces faster if they have a base activation of 1 standard action. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.

Example 2: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. He wants to start Blazing Rondo, he has to take a standard action, but otherwise both inspire courage and Blazing Rondo take effect simultaneously.

***********************************************

Strong Masterpieces that should be included in the FAQ committee analysis.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift/move/standard action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Battle Song of the People: Gives a feat to the party
- Requires: level 4 required
- Requires: or or half-orc race
- Costs level 2 spell known (or feat)
- standard action (levels 4-6), move or standard (level 7-12), etc.
- Feat Choice: Amplify Rage
--> would stack GREAT for a Skalds Rage Song
--> +4 STR and CON if adjacent/flanking to/with another raging ally
--> would not typically as powerful as adding haste to the party


Cavall wrote:

Yes. So. This would be important. Swift for inspire, move to Rondo, standard available.

You see how the FAQ becomes important then on these actions.

I agreed with you above on this above, said it was a valid point, stated the costs associated for a Vanilla Bard to match it and listed it out in the summary. Or at least, I tried my best to capture it properly. :-)


shaventalz wrote:
Blazing Rondo can never be started faster than one standard action, so you never get "swift action Haste" (or even move action Haste.) You could potentially still use your move/swift actions for more "normal" performances (depending on how this gets ruled), but the masterpiece is essentially an unquickenable Haste.

Here is how masterpieces work.

Action: This line indicates the type of action performing the masterpiece requires. If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well.

Here is Blazing Rondo (for reference):

Blazing Rondo

Thundering rhythms quicken your allies’ movements, but the effort of keeping up with the beat is wearying.

Prerequisite: Perform (oratory) 7 ranks or Perform (percussion) 7 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 3rd-level bard spell known.

Effect: Up to one ally per bard level gains the benefits of haste while you maintain this masterpiece, except the bonus to AC and on attack rolls and Reflex saves is one-fifth of your bard level. These allies must be within 60 feet of you to receive this benefit. When you cease performing this masterpiece, any creature that received this benefit for at least 3 rounds must succeed at a Fortitude save at this masterpiece’s DC or be fatigued for twice as many rounds as they were affected.

Use: 1 round of bardic performance per round.

Action: 1 standard action.


To Summarize:

Blazing Rondo is a case that will need to be looked at by the FAQ committee.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift/move/standard action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Did I miss anything?


Cavall wrote:

Sure level 13 is closer to end game. But blazing rondo is 7 ranks to take, and songs start as a move action (which is to say they can) at the same level. The lists are very specific that if it says you can start as standard it can go move and standard.

So really, this song is haste STARTS as a move action.

You could cast slow and give the group haste in the same action, for example.

(you meant "same round" and not "same action")

Correct. That is the way masterpieces work with spells. You can do the same with Inspire Courage and Slow spell as well.

However, the FAQ is how masterpieces work with bardic performances.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Why are your hasted fights taking so long?

- Pre-Combat or Early-in-Combat Buffing

- Chase Events
- Different Terrain Encounters
- Invisible Foe Finding
- Positioning Requirements
- Bad Dice
- Enemy Damage Spikes
- Enemy Counter Spells
- Mixed Party vs. the All Weapon Squad
etc.

There are many potential reasons. Mostly it is due to more frivolous and early usage of Haste at higher levels rather than keeping it bound on a tight leash.

Cavall wrote:

I think everyone is skipping over the fact it's quickly a move/ swift action to start too.

Which is vastly superior to casting haste, no matter how many rounds per day.

Level 13 is more towards end game, but you have a valid point.

Swift Action - Blazing Rondo
Move Action - Inspire Courage
Standard Action - Free

A vanilla bard would need a Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell in hand to match that.

EDIT: Just an errant thought...

At level 13, for the cost of the Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and Gloves of Spell Storing to treat it as if "in hand", the whole party could eliminate the need for Haste to be cast by all of them having Boots of Speed.

Sure, Blazing Rondo is +1 more to hit and Reflex saves, but that isn't much considering activation cost (even as a swift action - which can be pretty powerful by that level) and opportunity cost (group healing potential is now available with Bardic Performance rounds as well).


Chess Pwn wrote:

See I don't see the power as fading. This is only getting better as they level. At lv10 their haste is giving more bonuses than haste AND is now at 4 fights of 3 rounds a day.

Cause like performance rounds weren't going to be used anyways. Without masterpieces you quickly never run out of rounds, so spending those for a super-haste is always the stronger choice.

Or, it could last for two fights of 6 rounds. Whereas, the level 10 bard using Haste can crank out Haste for 5-6 fights of 10 rounds each (this is the extreme end). The ability fades in that regard. Also, the Haste spell can be used as pre-combat buffing potential at level 10, which is golden.

At level 10, the masterpiece is +1 more to hit and +1 more to reflex saves, which is more powerful than the Haste spell. It also means that the bard cannot be giving +3 skill rolls to the party or using Suggestion out of combat on a whim. It also diminishes usage of other Masterpieces as a potential. Seems fairly equitable to me.


Chess Pwn wrote:

The thing to consider I feel is that you're counting as using ALL your lv3 spells for haste. Which I feel is unreasonable, bards with 3 or 4 lv3 spells known will probably want to use one of them.

Indeed.

That is why I said that Bard A had "very limited 3rd level spell slots" at level 7 and "limited 3rd level spell slots" at 9th. It's also why I said that Bard B had stronger combat options at level 7, but they fade quickly.

Blazing Rondo masterpiece definitely starts out as a stronger combat option for rocket tag. Resources spent with a focus should help that focus, so that makes sense. The advantage definitely goes away over time as the bard gets more spell slots to use.

Blazing Rondo is a strong masterpiece option, I think we both agree. We are trying to break things, so looking at the strongest is good.

Is it overpowering strong? That's the debate.

Position #2 - Zero power problems.

Position #3 - I don't think it is grossly more powerful than what is already available to vanilla bard, and that power also fades away.


AlastarOG wrote:

But with option 2 he can't. Activating a masterpiece would cancel his inspire courage.

This is correct for Position #2.

I was discussing the potential implications of Position #3. If Position #3 can be shown to work okay, which is the position with most freedom, then that's definitely the way to go.

Sorry for the confusion.

AlastarOG wrote:

Virtuoso performance allows 2 simultaneous performances to be active although the second is at double pool rounds. Shadow bard creates a duplicate that doesn't cost you bardique rounds but can activate one performance independently. Duettist is similar to virtuoso performance but stacks with it, it allows your familiar to use your barricades music.

Virtuoso Performance allows the bard to have two actual Bardic Performances (Ex: Inspire Courage AND Dirge of Doom) up and running, which would still have use. Opinion: This is a really niche spell and greatly overpriced in spell level and/or bardic performance round cost.

Shadowbard (nice spell!) allows for an independent Bardic Performance that starts up with the casting of the spell. It should be able to work exactly the same no matter what they determine on this FAQ.

Duettist allows for a familiar to start a performance OR the bard. If either start one, it stops the other's performance. At level 8, they can start the same performance. At level 14, they can start different performances (which is the part that might be explored more in depth). This archetype could work exactly the same no matter what they determine on this FAQ. There might be a question on how many rounds of performance were being used, but at that burn rate, the bard would run out of rounds FAST.


Chess Pwn wrote:

For sure, Just the example was that good hope was a better use than amplified rage for the skald, but when you have 2 spells per day and this is only a mild fight then perhaps throwing down amplified because you have plenty of performance rounds.

Or the one that gives haste, Blazing Rondo, that seems like a much better option than the haste spell, bigger bonuses and a less resource cost.

This is a great example. Haste as a masterpiece is definitely a powerful option.

Blazing Rondo:
- Haste (plus) on 1 all per level
- Standard Action to activate (move action at 7th, etc.)
- Costs: 1 Feat or 1 3rd level Spell Known (min 7th level)

Assuming a CHA of 16, a bard will have 18 rounds of bardic performance at level 7.

Bard A has the Haste spell known.
Bard B picks the Blazing Rondo masterpiece instead.

At level 7:

- Bard A can Haste 2 fights a day for 14 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is very limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 9 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

At level 9:

- Bard A can Haste 4 fights a day for 36 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 11 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

I'd definitely say Bard B starts with stronger combat options at level 7, but they fade quickly with levels (3rd and higher spell slots). If other use of Bardic Performance is considered, Bard A will shine.

************************

Which brings up a thought... using Masterpieces simultaneously with Bardic Performance, hence double expenditure of rounds, works to decrease the viability of having multiple masterpieces.

Example: Tack on Triple Time to both bards above. Bard A can use it a lot more carefree than Bard B (who loses rounds of Hasted Inspire Courage awesomeness).

It should thus be the single Masterpiece bard that is the biggest challenge and type to check. Is there any more powerful Masterpiece than Blazing Rondo?


I don't think I ever stated which Position I preferred. In case anyone cares, I support Position #2.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Rory wrote:
The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good.
At 7th level, a performance can be started as a move action... so, if simultaneous performances/masterpieces were allowed, it would be entirely possible to fire off two of them each round. Three per round at 13th level.

At level 7, a normal bard can activate Inspire Courage as a move action and has a standard action to do something else, such as activate a masterpiece OR cast Good Hope.

From levels 4-12, the bard activating a bardic performance and a master piece requires an extra standard action (or round). It is a real cost.

CBDunkerson wrote:


Another issue with allowing simultaneous performances/masterpieces is that it would devalue the few abilities which allow this currently. The Duettist Bard's familiar and the Virtuoso Performance spell allow simultaneous performances, but at a higher than normal bardic performance round cost. So why pay extra to do it that way when you can do it all by yourself at a lower cost?

I'm not overly familiar enough with these. Do the abilities you mentioned save the extra standard action (or round) in activation cost?

Improving action economy is exceptionally powerful.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:

The biggest counter to the number 3 plan is skalds

Skalds have their raging song which counts as rage and battle song of the people gives a teamwork feat, aka amplified rage. If you're able to do both at once you're able to be giving +6 or more to STR and CON at quite low levels.

If we are okay with this then option 3 can be looked at more.
If this is not okay, we either need to not look at option 3 OR modify 3 somehow to not let this combo work.

Attempting to quantify this:

Raging Song:
- standard action (levels 1-6), move or standard (level 7-12), etc.
- +2 STR and CON (levels 1-7)
- +4 STR and CON (levels 8-15)
- +6 STR and CON (levels 16-20

Battle Song of the People: (level 4 required)
- standard action (levels 4-6), move or standard (level 7-12), etc.
- +4 STR and CON if adjacent/flanking to/with another raging ally

Combining:

Levels 1-3:
- Round 1: Gives +2 STR to party
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 6 rounds per day max @ 1st

Levels 4-6:
- Round 1: Gives +2 STR to party
- Round 2: Gives +6 STR to party (IF they are adjacent or flanking)
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 5 rounds per day max @ 4th
--- 7 rounds per day max @ 6th

Levels 7:
- Round 1: Gives +6 STR to party (IF they are adjacent or flanking)
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 9 rounds per day max @ 7th

Levels 8-12:
- Round 1: Gives +8 STR to party (IF they are adjacent or flanking)
- Assume: 16 CHA
--- 10 rounds per day max @ 8th

etc.

Real Costs:
- Required to be a half-orc or orc
- 1 feat (or spell known)
- half the effective bardic performance rounds
- an extra standard action (or extra round to activate) from levels 4-14

Real Benefits:
- +4 STR (extra) to allies IF they are raging AND adjacent/flanking

The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good. Casting Haste or Good Hope at level 7 on round 1 is a better action. I don't see this as a broken example due to the costs involved.


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I tried to organize potential FAQ responses back in March (see below for the final iteration). (CLARIFICATION: Only one of the three positions below would picked. The other two would be discarded. Any other potential positions to add to the list?)

Mark mentioned that data may be needed, but it still boils down to very few positions.

What are the most grievous masterpiece vs. performance examples?

**********************************************************

Position #1 - Masterpieces are Bardic Performance are Masterpieces

Position #1 FAQ:

Masterpieces are bardic performances and follow bardic performance rules. If a bard starts a new masterpiece or other bardic performance, any existing masterpiece effect immediately ends. A bard does not need to spend a free action to maintain masterpieces, nor does a masterpiece effect immediately end if the bard falls unconscious, etc. The masterpiece effects linger until their duration expires, or until a new masterpiece or other bardic performance is started.

Example: If a bard has activated Triple Time on an ally, whenever they start to activate another bardic performance (or masterpiece), Triple Time wears off immediately, no matter where the ally is.

Position #2 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. Any masterpiece that is completed and has a duration independent of the bard no longer counts against the maintained performance limit.

Position #2 FAQ:

Masterpieces can be separated into two categories: maintained and independent. A masterpiece is maintained if it requires the bard to spend actions in subsequent rounds or else the masterpiece will end. A masterpiece is independent of the bard if no action must be taken after the masterpiece is activated for the effect to continue for its entire duration.

A maintained masterpiece immediately ends if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. An independent masterpiece does not end if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. It lasts until its duration expires.

Example: If a bard has completed the activation of the Triple Time masterpiece on an ally, the ally retains the bonus even if the bard starts another Bardic Performance or Masterpiece.

Example: If a bard has the masterpiece The Depths of the Mountain activated, since it is a maintained Masterpiece, the bard must end that masterpiece if Inspire Courage is started.

Position #3 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #3 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.


Preferred Spell (APG)

You can get this feat 4 levels earlier than Greater Spell Specialization.

***************************************************************

Preferred Spell

You find it very easy to cast one particular spell.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5 ranks, Heighten Spell.
Benefit: Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.


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fearcypher wrote:

A kitsune sorcerer could easily have a DC 20 suggestion at the level they can cast it.

10+2(spell level)+5(20 charisma)+1(Kitsune racial bonus)+1(favored class bonus)+1(spell focus[enchantment])

This would be a DC 21 as suggestion for a sorcerer is a level 3 spell.

A fey bloodline sorcerer would add +2 more from bloodline arcana for a DC 23.


Rerednaw wrote:
What kind of builds would you folks suggest? Current party is 2 oracles, 3 martials, and an arcane hybrid (I think a magus).

Get two characters to pick up 1 level of life oracle. Have (at least) one of those characters pick up the Endurance, Die Hard, and Fast Healer feats. This is EASY to do with the +2 bonus feat potential. This will allow your group to be 5 or less hitpoints from full after fights.

Example: Half-Orc the Heal-Resonation Paladin

S: 17 C: 14 D: 12 I: 10 W: 10 Ch: 16 (24 pt half-orc)

Feats:

Endurance (half-orc racial alternate)
Diehard (Bonus 1st)
Fast Healer (Bonus 1st)
Fey Foundling (1st)

Level 1 Life Oracle (Life Link Revelation)
Level 1 Paladin
Level 2 Paladin

Every time you get healed magically (via another Life Link too), you get healed for +7 hitpoints (while 5 hitpoints damage is dealt by the other end of the life link). You are eliminating 2 hitpoints of damage from the group every round by swapping the 5 damage between the two life oracles.

I tossed in Fey Foundling for better emergency healing, but this option isn't needed. You can swap CON and CHA above to remove damage slightly faster.


Ring of Invisibility is a great object for a teleporting conjuration specialist. That requires you to hit 7th to make, but it is probably my favorite for your character path.

Another fun potential could be an Amulet of Mighty Fists of Spell Storing. If and when some silly thing comes up to threaten you, hit them with a shocking grasp and zotz them with a second effect too. You can start this up at level 3 for 2000gp crafting cost.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Honestly it really came down to me literally being unable to think of anything like you couldn't for the 1st and 9th levels.

I purposefully left the feat slots open to example flexibility while maintaining the style you desired. Here are some feats to fill in any gaps. There are others.

- Fey Foundling (1st level only)
- Power Attack
- Dodge


Chess Pwn wrote:
But the base WP can add in natural attacks too into it's full attack while the SF cannot add those with his flurry.

That is true IF the War Priest has them. Those -7 penalty to hit half strength secondary natural attacks add up a little with the War Priest's static bonuses.

Example: A half-orc with a bite attack can do an extra 1d4 damage at level 1 if he can hit with the -4 to hit attack (based on the OP's latest example War Priest). At level 3, it's much better at -1 to hit for 1d4+1 damage (assuming Divine Favor).

Granted, they aren't going to pierce DR via Pummeling Style, which was the plan.

Those secondary natural attacks can be saved somewhat by spending more feats to get Weapon Focus with each type. They will get scaling damage that way (and +1 more to hit). Multi Attack will boost their to hit later too. That will cause the War Priest to go into a feat deficit compared to the Sacred Fist though.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
As you can see you just got a lot more to work with as a standard warpriest when it comes to feats and the like and would generally be stronger then the sacred fist up until towards the end but by that point the campaigns almost over.

You are spending feats on the Sacred Fist that aren't comparative to the feats you spent on the War Priest.

Examples: Weapon Finesse is not needed when you have a higher strength than dexterity. Fast Learner means you are making the Sacred Fist better at skills while just bumping the War Priests offense. Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning should be taken on both or neither for the best comparison.

That gives you 4 additional feats, 2 of which are at level 1.

In your comparison, the War Priest only gets 1 attack ever with the offhand. It's better off using a two handed weapon eventually that way. At level 8, the War Priest gets 3 attacks while the Sacred Fist gets 4 to 5 attacks in a full attack routine. That's a major difference.

Example Sacred Fist

S: 15 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 14 Ch: 8 (20 pt human, +1 STR @ 4th)

Improved Unarmed Strike (WP 1)
Toughness (human)
??? (1st)
Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Deific Obedience (5th)
Pummeling Style (WP 6)
Ki Channel (7th)
??? (9th)
Quicken Blessing (11th)
Pummeling Charge (WP 12)

Level 1: Using Strength Blessing
Sacred Fist: +1/+1 unarmed strike (1d6+2)
Your War Priest: +3/+3 unarmed strike (1d6+1 / 1d6)

Level 3: Fervor Divine Favor
Sacred Fist: +4/+4 unarmed strike (1d6+3)
Your War Priest: +5/+5 unarmed strike (1d6+2 / 1d6+1)

Level 5: Fervor Divine Favor + Fervor Bull's Strength / Sacred Weapon
Sacred Fist: +8/+8 unarmed strike (1d8+6)
Your War Priest: +7/+6 unarmed strike (1d8+3 / 1d8+1)

Neither are going to be super damage until around 8th for the Sacred Fist (using 5 attacks) and never for the War Priest (using unarmed strikes).


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
The first being how many more feats the base warpriest gets over sacred fist, making it a lot more flexible when it comes to builds.

A Sacred Fist effectively gets Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice at level 1 (= 2 feats). They effectively get Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 8. A War Priest gets Weapon Focus at level 1 (= 1 feat). They catch up at level 3 with another feat. War Priests fall behind again at level 8 and again at level 15, but have more feat options. Seems pretty close to me.

Example: A human Sacred Fist gets TWF, Double Slice, Weapon Focus +1 more feat at level 1. A human War Priest gets TWF, Double Slice, and Weapon Focus at level 1. Sacred Fist starts ahead by 1 feat at level 1.

A Sacred Fist is better damage faster than a (non-archetype) War Priest. Weak AC is a headache. Thank goodness they can self heal.

A War Priest has far better defenses faster due to being able to wear armor. Requiring 15 (and later up to 19) DEX at level 1 is a headache.


mekka2000 wrote:
Rory, interesting idea, don't like the loss of randomness tough :)

Is it more or less random?

Remember, at a higher level game, which is what you are targeting, weapon damage dice becomes irrelevant compared to static bonuses anyways.

Let's compare...

In the latest system you listed, the character gets one attack roll (95% chance to hit due to being full BAB) for one weapon damage roll (multiplied by 3 due to three attacks).

95% chance to hit is not very random. The damage is decently random at 2d6+5 damage. It's not nearly as random at 2d6+25 damage, which is the higher level game.

Vs.

If you roll to hit and use average damage, iterative attacks don't auto hit. You won't experience a 95% chance to hit for all damage. You have more range in resultant damage because some hits can and will miss. This randomness never goes away.

But the best features:
- it's simpler, you do not need to make any other game changes
- all the problems you are encountering are 100% eliminated

The best of both worlds might be to have the first hit be random (2d6+20) damage while each additional hit is average (+27) damage.


Another Option:

Instead of eliminating the attack dice, eliminate the damage dice. Just apply average damage for each attack.

Example: A character swinging a great sword for 2d6+20 does an average of 27 damage per attack. Instead of rolling the 26d, just set the damage on a successful attack to be 27.

If a character attacks three times (three d20 rolls), they do 0, 27, 54, or 81 damage, depending on how many attacks hit.

It is easy to roll the three d20s at once and quickly determine how many attacks hit. This eliminates lots of dice rolling (the prime objective) and fits completely in the existing framework without changing lots of rules.


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Neils Bohr wrote:
I have a pretty standard oradin build. Mythic gives lots of options to heal very well and the amounts of damage taken make life link pretty paltry. I'm just wondering if I'm going to miss out on anything if I drop the 4 levels of Oracle.

4 levels of oracle? Nope. You won't miss out on much. You only need 1 level of oracle as an Oradin. That one level, getting Dual Cursed for Misfortune and Life Link (using a feat for Extra Revelation) is a very powerful combo, even at level 8 or 12. Misfortune is the lion's share of that at the higher levels.

Now, missing out on 8 levels of Oracle, that's the real question. You are getting to the point where you can lay down some serious spells while using move actions for channels to heal the whole group at once. Communal Resist Energy is the bomb!

Blessing of Fervor
Prayer
Communal Resist Energy
Delay Poison (immunity to poison, use with a rod of extend spell)
etc.

And then there is that 5th level spell that gives the party a favored enemy and favored terrain for 1 hour per level. Amazing!

Going paladin 8 is more self empowering with stellar self healing. Going oracle 8 is practically the same combat power as you currently have (less smiting), but it packs a lot more party empowering features.

I guess it depends if you still wanted that party helping feel to the character...


ZangRavnos wrote:
A 20 charge Wand of Sound Burst is 1,800 gold out of an allotted 2,000 starting gold.

Can you swap out the Wand of Lesser Restoration that you had in your list for the Wand of Sound Burst?

Level 3 is going to be the "pain" filled level due to not enough spell slots. Spending 1800 gold, or just 900 gold for a 10 charge wand, to negate that headache is still kind of tempting to me I confess.


ZangRavnos wrote:
Could invest in more wands, but I really don't have THAT much money to play around with.

How much cash do you have to spend?

A 20 charge Wand of Sound Burst or Burst of Radiance would be an excellent attack at level 3 (auto damage and a chance to stun or blind). 20 charges should last you long enough to get to 4th to 5th level and more spell slots. You will use either a lot more than a Wand of Lesser Restoration (which you can buy later if desired/needed).

A bandoleer of 8 Acid Flasks costs 82gp and give you 8 charges of ranged touch attack damage.

Buy a 20 charge Wand of Bless to start and use your spell slots for those Cause Fear, etc. spells that are saving throw based. That will stretch your spell slots quite a bit.

If you go with the Pyromaniac alternative racial trait for gnomes, you'll also be able to cast Produce Flame once per day. At level 3, that is three attacks of 1d6+3 damage. It's not time themed, but it's decent to start you off. That can be equal to a combat per day at level 3.


ZangRavnos wrote:

As far as weapons, or other non-magical options, is what I have sufficient or should I go a different direction?

And could someone clarify for me how the Aging Touch against an enemies weapon or armor work in combat?

With 8 STR, ditch all melee weapon thoughts. Unless you take the feat Weapon Finesse, even your touch attacks can be hard to land. You might talk to your GM to see if Weapon Finesse is waived for touch attacks due to the Feat Tax waiver in place.

The Gnome Hooked Hammer is right out. It is a martial weapon for gnomes and you aren't proficient in martial weapons. You would be a -2 to hit with it at level 3 and be -1 damage.

A light crossbow can function since you have a better DEX. However, the damage of 1d6 is subpar at level 3. You will want to focus resources on developing better actions.

The best weapon you can wield with 8 STR with or without Weapon Finesse is Spiked Gauntlets. This will cause you to threaten to give your allies flanking bonus potential while keeping your hands free. They aren't for you to do damage. :-)

Aging Touch Attack
+2 BAB
+1 Size
-1 for 8 STR (or +2 for 14 DEX with Weapon Finesses)
-------------
+2 to hit (or +5 to hit with Weapon Finesse) vs. Touch AC


ZangRavnos wrote:

My plan was to mold spell effect flavor the way you are suggestion, so I do like that alot. Things like Cause Fear are a little more difficult to bend that way but I can live with it. :)

Bestow Curse to make a foe act only 50% of the time seems time themed righteous. -6 STR, DEX or CON to "age" them seems to fit nicely too.

Cause Fear is indeed a little tougher, I agree. You could say that it causes a localized, really weird, unnatural sensation from a time swirl that taps a creature's basic instinctive reaction to flight. It makes sense for higher hit dice, more experienced foes, to automatically override these instincts.


ZangRavnos wrote:
I did consider dual-cursed, but it seemed like alot of detriment. The disadvantages seemed incredibly heavy. What would be the best way to do that? Which curses are most beneficial? They just seem to hurt.

Tongues. They can't understand you in combat? That is because you are "speaking too fast"! Good time theme. Hurts the Command spell type spells, but is nearly harmless for the party if they spend 1 skill point into a "party language".

Lame Curse. With an 8 strength, encumbrance is a quick issue, which causes movement loss. With this curse, you can ignore encumbrance pretty much. Boots of Striding and Springing practically negate it. You can theme this as you slowing down in time.

Combine Lame (slow time theme) and Tongues (fast time theme) for a decent time theme flavored combination.

Other potentials:

Legalist. Always tell the truth. Hurts only if you like to bluff.

Haunted. Harmless except when you you try to use Scrolls and Wands.

Blackened. Good offensive spell options. Not so good for your touch spells and effects. I'd avoid it.

Diseased. Road Bump if you want to use CHA skills. High CHA blasts thru most of it. Circlet of Persuasion (you'll want this anyways) just about does the rest.


RickDias wrote:
With that laid out, and the build provided below, can anyone suggest some PFS legal ways to get the HP count up on this character edit: within the first few levels if possible (end edit) or else legitimately convince me that I don't need Weapon Finesse on them?

- Use Prestige to train max hitpoints (3 Prestige = +1 Max Hitpoints)

- Get +1 CON at 4th and +1 DEX at 8th.
- Buff with Bear's Endurance in a fight.


ZangRavnos wrote:
Another concern I have with Cause Fear over Doom is that after 6HD it becomes useless. Isn't that some wasted mileage for limited spell selection or should I really not be worried about that?

Definitely. That is specifically why I suggested to swap it out at level 4 to the Command Spell. Command can wreck a foe long after level 6 just due to forcing foes to give AOOs to your beefy warriors.


ZangRavnos wrote:

I went with Sanctuary cause it can be cast on allies as a rescue button. Ultimately, I would like to focus on debuffs, but early game save DC's for enemies are always a little on the high side, so save or suck doesn't seem to work so well until higher level. I could be wrong, I mean my starting Cha seems pretty high. Plus the early game debuffs don't really seem to fit flavor, but I may be overly married to the concept and just need to get over it.

Rescue Button Comparison... Sanctuary restricts actions of the party member in danger and doesn't do anything to get them out of danger. Cure Light Wounds doesn't restrict actions, is guaranteed to give some help to the person in trouble, and targets 99% of all real dangers at level 3. Just a thought...

There aren't a lot of spells that involve time theme without imagining extra descriptive only adjectives.

Example: Sound Burst can be you causing a break in space-time that causes a sonic backlash and potentially stuns people caught in the vortex you created.

Technically, the spell is exactly the same as Sound Burst, but it sounds a lot more time-space spiffy.

I think casting debuff spells would be fine start at level 3 for you. 19 CHA is great and a 20 at level 4 puts you squarely into the competition. The Spell Focus feat would be great for you if you wanted to go this route.

One quick note... the revelation Temporal Celerity seems to be ideal for your character. Going first to buff or debuff is a great thing. Further, it functions all day long without action whereas Time Flicker will take up a valuable, valuable combat action each combat.

Have you considered the Dual Cursed archetype? That is a FABULOUS debuffing archetype for an oracle. The Misfortune revelation could be described to make people shift a moment in time to mess up their reactions and abilities. Further, as an immediate action, you sort of gain the ability to act "out of time" to cause the effect to happen.


Spells:

Doom is a pretty mediocre level 1 spell. Cause Fear is a much better replacement. Cause Fear gives you a minimum of 1 round of shaken even on a successful save and it also gives the opportunity to cause a foe to give AOOs to your allies on a failed save. Command gives more options and lasts longer, and would be a good option to switch Cause Fear into when you hit level 4.

You have no buffing spells yet (you wanted to be a buffer). Bless is a good one. Shield of Faith is another. You can get these via scrolls or wands and still retain your current spell selections.

Sanctuary as a spell is good when you are a credible threat. Alas, until then, casting Sanctuary is nearly a wasted action without it. I'd drop that for a buffing spell. Shield of Faith will be useful for nigh your career while Bless is good now and for the next couple of levels.

Combat (In)Actions:

You have just about zero in combat actions except to heal people and 1 round of Erase From Time. You could use more options. The below are suggestions to increase in combat options.

Alchemist Fire and Acid Flasks are decent damage for level 3. You should be decent to hit with +4 against a Touch AC.

A wand of Sound Burst (or Burst of Radiance) instead of the Wand of Lesser Restoration would eliminate a lot of combat inaction troubles up to and thru level 4. If you have the option to change that wand out yet, I think it would be a more fun option for you.

A wand of Bless would really help your combat buffing to start.

Load up on a few scrolls as soon as you can. Scrolls of Bless, Shield of Faith, Cause Fear, Obscuring Mist, Magic Weapon, Comprehend Languages, etc. give you options and unpredictability.


Jeraa wrote:

You are confusing attack type and damage type.

Damage type actually had nothing to do with it. It was a deeper flaw than that.

I was full up thinking that a piercing, slashing, or bludgeon attack by definition is an attack versus normal AC. Afterall, you don't pierce, slash, bludgeon when all you are doing is touching. You also do a lot more than touch when you pierce, slash, and bludgeon.

Obviously, there are examples that the designers have made some touch attacks do piercing, slashing, and/or bludgeon damage. Thanks to those who posted those. This may make no sense to me, but that doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Learn something new every day! :-)


Dragon78 wrote:
Are there any other spontaneous caster archetypes for the witch?

I don't know of any witch archetypes that are spontaneous casters, but the Arcanist can cast witch spells spontaneously by taking the Unlettered archetype.

Not quite what you were after likely... but who knows...

******************************************

Unlettered Arcanist (Archetype)
Some arcanists store their spells as whispered secrets within familiars instead of on paper.

Familiar: An unlettered arcanist does not keep a spellbook. Instead, she gains a familiar in which she stores her spells as a witch does, though she does not gain a witch's patron. Treat her arcanist level as her witch level for determining the abilities and benefits granted by the familiar. Anything that would allow an unlettered arcanist to add spells to her spellbook allows her to add spells to her familiar instead. This ability replaces spellbooks.

Witch Spells: An unlettered arcanist follows a different arcane tradition. She uses the witch spell list instead of the sorcerer/wizard list. This ability alters the spells class feature.


Cattleman wrote:

@Rory

Torches and flaming weapons already do do damage to swarms. Links in this rules thread

The tweak meant was to bump the damage from 1 point of fire damage that normally works to 1d3+1 fire damage. 1d3+1 is a three-fold increase for torch damage. Still small, but it makes the 1st level players feel like they are doing good!


Against veteran Pathfinders? Let the swarms roll as written.

Against brand new Pathfinders? Swarms at level 1 will be a "feature" to turn them away rather than to get them into the system.

Unless this is for PFS, you could tweak the swarms to be tiny spiders. That means that they will take half damage from weapons.

Other options to tweak the encounter:
- lower the touch AC of the swarm to something more enjoyable
- have the spiders scurry away or around flaming lantern oil
- have flaming torch damage (1d3 +1 fire) work, but without STR bonus
- have the swarm not move fast or at all strategically
- have the swarm not move to attack someone further away than 10 feet
- have the swarm disperse itself after 2 to 4 rounds


- Dip a level into Bloodrager (or get the Rage sub-domain thru some druid archetype)
- Get Craft Wondrous Item feat

8000 gold for a +1 Furious Amulet penetrates DR/silver and DR/cold iron
18,000 gold penetrates DR/adamantium
32,000 gold penetrates DR/alignment

Considering you can also craft a STR/DEX/CON belt and WIS headband for half price, it's almost like you get the amulet for free! :-)


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Rory wrote:
I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot.
Quote:
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.

Thanks Matthew! Based on that precedence, the modified Ray of Frost could definitely be a ranged touch piercing attack.

Doesn't make definition sense to me, but so what, it's... magic! :-)


Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Rory wrote:
Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack.
Nothing in the description says the spell stops being a ranged touch attack.

The effect says the spell creates an icicle that does piercing damage. A ranged touch attack and a piercing damage attack are two separate things. They target different sets of defenses.

That said, I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot. I cannot interpret this as the first case, but if it followed a precedent...


Wayne Bradbury wrote:
As is, several of my local PFS GMs have signed off on the +1d3+1 interpretation, so it's what I'm going with for the time being. I'd really rather an official answer one way or the other, but I doubt such a thing is forthcoming.

I think the wording is pretty clear that it replaces and doesn't add, but I think it should add. Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack. That means... you lose the touch attack advantage to gain... a means to bypass cold resistance. That's not worth much. And it costs 40 gold per shot (or a feat -> False Focus).

At level 3, +0 BAB human caster would have a hard time hitting with that piercing attack. If you went all in with an 18 DEX, you'd be +5 to hit a normal target, +1 to hit if the target is in melee, and -3 to hit shooting thru a fellow PC into melee.

The 12-26 damage piercing attack vs. normal AC isn't going to hit nearly as often as the 11-14 ranged touch attack. This is especially true if False Focus is traded out for Precise Shot.

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