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PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Dandy Lion wrote:
It's less apparent with beast shape, but the Monstrous Physique spells are this gross choice of obscure creatures that really should be run by the GM before you even try using them.

I feel like a reasonable house rule would be "you have to be able to identify one of these if you saw them, taking 10 on your appropriate knowledge roll, before you can transform into one".

Since "I don't know it when I see it, but I can be one sometimes" is kind of an absurd position.

"The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with."

From Wild Shape. It kind of already says that; may not give that you need to make a knowledge check; but it does clearly state be familiar with it. So if it's an altered version that rule is still there. Though it may not be on each individual spell.

So if you actually had no Knowledge: Nature or Aberration, etc. You couldn't change into anything other than commonly known ones.


Coidzor wrote:
There's no general deity specifically focused on healing, unless I missed something somewhere.

You mean like Dalenydra?


Zhayne wrote:

This is where 'cleric of an ideal/philosophy' comes in. Strength and Travel seem like good domains for idolizing horses.

(Also, any god with the Animal domain or a nature/animal entry in the portfolio would probably include horses in its umbrella.)

That depends on the setting; in Golarion, except for a few; you have to worship a deity to get divine power. There is no over all Cleric of an ideal/philosophy.

As far as horses you could also look at hose with a favored animal of horses; especially if they have the animal domain.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I want to see if other agree with how I am reading Fluidic Body, since I missed this previously-

Quote:
Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours.

Do you make this check immediately after your 1 hour (at first level) Alter Self, or do you make this check 1 hour after that runs out? I would think that "immediately after your 1 hour is up" is not "an hour after the duration"?

So can each period bipedal be extended by 1 hour for free? I'd certainly sign off on that.

It is badly worded. I could see it meaning either way. Though most if not all other effects that have something happen after an allotted time, are before it happens. But as staying in the form longer seems to be punished with not being able to do it again until you rest; should at least give you something for it. Or say it only applies if you try to stay in the form longer. It could definitely use some clarification, and might even be one reason the devs didn't see it as bad; as they thought it meant other than what people were reading it. Not that that would mean much to most the naysayers.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:

So there are some things I've noticed that are missing gods or demi-gods that show interest in them.

Such as there is no god or goddess or anything else of horses. Nor do any of the daemon lords lend themselves to snake oil.
What other gaping holes in areas of interest have you noticed?

Horses: General Susumu

Snake Oil: You mean liars and con artists in regards to medicine? Yea not seeing anything that's deception/trickery and healing.


While further looking at the Shifter in comparison to similar features of other classes I noticed another inconsistency.

Shifter Claws progression: I realize the devs didn't want the damage from it too high, as there are more ways to improve natural attack damage than manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes; but it increases seemingly randomly. I can think of 4-5 for natural attacks that stack; but only 2 or 3 for unarmed or manufactured weapons. Not counting the normal +# or special abilities like flaming, frost, etc.

But both Brawler & Monk increase at the same ratio of levels to damage increase as 3:4:4:4:4:1, and the War Priest as 4:5:5:5:1; while the shifter is 6:4:2:7 and makes it feel like the bonuses were arbitrarily chosen when to increase, without any sort of even progression. If it was put to the same ratio as the others it'd not be at 1d4 for so long, and have a longer period of 1d8, but also get 2d6 at 20th; which is still below the other classes.

Also looking at Monk for a comparison, it seems strange that Shifter gets Magic, Cold Iron & Silver all at once at 3rd level; plus it gets the later 2 earlier than monk. If you moved Cold Iron & Silver to 7th level it'd balance better; and spread out the progression of DR overcoming more instead of lumping most of it at 3rd level. You could also spread out the Adamantine from the DR/---; to further even out that progression. Especially as a monk has to spend Chi to get these equivalents; the shifter should have it spread out to bring it more in line. While it wouldn't make sense for a Shifter to get Lawful, a Brawler gets Alignment instead; should the shifter also get such? or maybe increase the threat range to 19-20?

A Thousand Faces: This just feels weird in the class; not to mention how late you get it. The class is about turning into animals; but now you give it an ability to turn any humanoids? This would be great as an early option for a Humanoid only Shifter; but feels out of place in the base class.

-----

Really though I don't think the majority of players are going to be happy with the class unless it ends up getting a major rewrite and not just try to edit a few sentences in it here and there.

With that in mind; I propose the following additional changes to the class; though it is currently a rough draft and some things may need tweaked. Which I feel keeps to the spirit and feel of the class and what players were expecting (including the idea it was some sort of Nature Paladin).

My Shifter Redux

Edit: Commenting has been turned on for the Shifter Redux.


GodsBlister wrote:

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

And I would be more accepting of being cursed to not use equipment in the way the Oozemorph is written if it meant you got small bonuses to offset the amount of stuff you are losing out on most of the time. They get too little for giving up all the Shifter class features they lose. As well as not having a capstone ability since they lose Final Aspect.

There is the small bonuses from Alter Self, Beast Shape I & II, and Giant Shape I; plus without the limitation that the base Shifter class gets on variety/type.

And as for things like Chimeric Aspect; even though it's listed under Fluidic Body, Morphic Weaponry gives them extra natural attacks beyond what their assumed form gives. So maybe they should have listed those for it instead of where they did. But over all an archetype isn't a direct power equivalent exchange for each new ability and what is changed. It's one reason why you're not supposed to stop half way through an archetype and go back to the class. It's the archetype as a whole that is supposed to balanced in comparison to the class. Also Fluid technically replaces the capstone as written ("all improves of shifter aspect" would mean Final Aspect). They just now need to add that "at will" like they did for the base class.

@PossibleCabbage Not sure; but I think they're expecting people not to stay in their ooze form. Maybe they should give them a light or medium fortification equivalent when not in ooze form, to reflect that their body still seems to be not quite solid (ie Compression, Morphic Weaponry, DR).


@PossibleCabbage you asked if something was breakable for them getting rid of that sentence; I thought of something else. Giving an actual Ooze, Gelatinous Cube, etc. levels in that class without it all that gear they are carrying around inside them now gives them bonuses.

But also it goes against prior rules of magic item slots based on form. Currently there is no amorphous blob listed for magic items slots; meaning they get none. If they start giving them some one place it opens the door for others.


GodsBlister wrote:
It's from Paizo themselves. Their advertisements for Ultimate Wilderness have portrayed the Shifter as the Druid's Paladin from what I've seen. I cannot find where I saw those words said at the moment, but I distinctly remember it being printed on the internet somewhere. Its part of what helped me decide to purchase Ultimate Wilderness to see what was in store for the new class.

"A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with new class features derived from animalistic attributes."

"The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a heightened level of savagery to the battlefield!"

That is the quotes from the book synopsis from the page on the paizo site; and is the only thing I can see of Paizo describing the class' feel; outside of the actual Shifter description in the book.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

But all that "immunity to crits, flanking, precision damage" is kinda meaningless if you're so defenseless in combat that you wouldn't be an ooze then unless you absolutely had to.

Like if I'm stuck in fluidic form in combat, my preferred position is "hiding". I would gladly trade immunity to critical hits, flanking, and precision damage for speaking, armor, a few primarily defensive item slots, and the ability to manipulate objects (but not wield weapons).

Well then it sounds like what they need to do is move fluidic body to a later level; since the idea is that it's a major downside. Make it where in learning how oozes work (i.e. at a later level, maybe 4? Which gives you a base +4 Fort save so ups the chance to make the DC 15 Fort save) they gain the drawback of their natural form being an ooze. It makes it feel like a curse or something messed up in learning to emulate them. And now they have to learn how to not be an ooze. But even with those immunities being meaningless, it sets a precedent for gaining those at 1st level, a bad one if they lose the drawback.

Plus the reason they have those immunities IS that they are an ooze and those are the immunities Oozes get. It's staying with prior rules.

Even if they did moved Fluidic Body to say 4th level; there is nothing that says they cannot keep Compression at 1st, and I don't see Morphic Weaponry needing much change either; maybe just a shift in paragraph order. As since you're always humanoid before level 4, you have enough control to create fleshy/oozy appendages.


GodsBlister wrote:

Yes, I meant archetype but said class because the Oozemorph is so bizarrely different from the Shifter base class that it feels like a different but similar class altogether. And the way the morphic weapons work is that they form appendages with weapons on the end of them from any part of it's body. I base this upon the one image given for the archetype from the book, where the she is crafting a Morningstar from her arm. However the problem is that they cannot hold anything while in their base form. Which seems odd considering that they can create a hardened weapon of any B/P/S shape. It also has the problem of not being able to utilize any skills that need you to speak to another character/player/npc. Not being able to hold objects means you can't commit to a Strength check to lift something for another player, or even carry party members away from a near death encounter.

While being mute is similar to the experience an oozemorph has, limiting their drawbacks to just that is not really fair to the archetype as they've effectively got Mute, Lame, and the inability to use magic within their 23 hour scope of horror. The shifter itself as a whole is not in the most terrible of spots, but it is pretty dire compared to even its flavor counterpart, the Paladin.

Where are you (and a few others) getting it's counterpart is the Paladin? I don't get anything in their description, not even in the book synopsis, says paladin to me. I get more that they are a savage warrior (not as per the NPC class)that specializes in using animal forms and natural weapons to strike. Hence the class using of some monk features along with druid. And maybe this is part of the problem; a disconnect that some are seeing it as the 'Nature Paladin' but it wasn't meant to be.

Especially as really; the Paladin isn't a great class to use for comparison since they can get pretty broken with little effort. Beyond imbalance issues of a paladin, it ends up being like you're trying to compare a Sorcerer and Wizard. Yes they both cast arcane spells (both Paladin & Shifter are physical combatant types); but other than that they are very different. And it becomes unfair to try to compare them.

----

Also I think if people actually gave ideas of how to fix it (which I've given multiple ideas), it'd be far more constructive than just saying "It's bad, change it." which seems to be what most are saying. They concentrate on what's wrong instead of how to improve it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

So hypothetically if we were to delete this entire clause:

Quote:
However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.

What unreasonable things would an oozemorph be able to do? It would make it much more playable, but could anything potentially game breaking be done? What is the minimum standard being an ooze would be troubling enough that you'd be unwilling to do it all the time, but not so bad that you're just unwilling to do it at all.

I mean, being immune to crits isn't that great when your HP is 14 and your AC is 12- normal hits hit often and hard enough to be a problem for you.

Removing that would create a game balance issue I think. Getting immunity to flanking (without the normal uncanny dodge caveat), critical hits, and precision damage at 1st level with no sort of downside would be imbalanced. They'd have to move it to a different level if they removed that sentence. Also by removing that your AC is probably no longer 12 as you'd get armor with that section gone.


GodsBlister wrote:
The problem isn't that the class isn't a hilarious Dip. The problem is that the class is flat out horrible at the only things it can do, while not ever getting better at staying alive and contributing as a class in any fashion that would matter for any AP, or most player campaigns even.

Maybe for you the problem isn't about dipping; but there have been multiple people that made the comment about it not having anything to dip for. Hence why the comment wasn't made in direct relation to a single person's quote.

But my experience in playing the class (Not the oozemorph archetype); and maybe you mean the archetype with your comment; but I'll take you for the word you used; class; is you are wrong. My damage is on par with a ranger in the party. The character has far more versatility than other classes/archetypes supposedly far better (in this case the Beastkin Berserker Barbarian) and damage is similar. I rebuilt the character when UW came out; because I found the Beastkin Berserker to actually be limited to only being good for combat. Maybe you are looking for something that you can min-max or powergame with; but that should NEVER be what you base a judgement on of something and whether it needs fixed.

Graystone wrote:
Not being able to speak because of being in ooze form is no different than a character that is mute, or one that stays all their time in wild shape. No it's not... It's like a mute without arms that can't use any equipment or meaningfully communicate or even lift/hold objects... It LITERALLY can only attack and move.

So it can form weaponry for natural attacks but cannot form arms those natural attacks are on... um ok... nope it doesn't say it's reach is 0 ft which would be the only rational way your statement would make sense.

So what is sneaking? Moving last I checked; does anything say they cannot use skills? No? So they can do other things than attack and move. Maybe the problem isn't so much the class as it is you lacking in thinking outside the box. Don't see anything saying they cannot interact with physical objects either; maybe they cannot grasp things; but you don't need to grasp a door to open it unless it is latched; or grasp an item to push it. IF it wasn't supposed to be able to do any of that, it would say it couldn't interact with physical objects at all.

Graystone wrote:
They have MULTIPLE one hour blocks of use and can ACTUALLY do things in either form. An ape can point, a tiger can scratch out a message, a bird can pick up a wand... and at worst, without changing shape, they STILL have humanoid form and can use items. it's not even a little comparable to oozemorphs.

If a tiger can scratch out a message, so can a shifter with morphic weapon; you know that thing it can use to do slashing or piercing damage same as a claw? Or are you just dismissing that too based on you not liking it?

Graystone wrote:
Why don't you try to actually play and experience the class/archetype I HAVE... GodsBlister has... Have YOU?

Oh look you're being dismissive of others again and ignoring what they've said repeatedly (and even gave specific examples), as well as trying to answer for other people. Even though you've never said in the past you've played it and have actually made enough comments eluding that you wouldn't even try it.


Not being able to speak because of being in ooze form is no different than a character that is mute, or one that stays all their time in wild shape. You learn to RP and adapt around it; instead of acting like it has to change for you. You cannot open a door? Oh well, you probably can't bypass a trap either and so you let someone that can do it. You're in a party, not a stand alone game. You can still fight, you could scratch a message into the dirt, etc.

Also it's a double standard. You think those extra Wis mod hours are such a big deal for the Shifter when others who have actually played the class tell you it's not. You are literally trying to dictate to other players with that nonsense that they are playing it wrong and should accept your way as the right one. Which is funny you are arguing it makes the Oozemorph only for combat because of the limited time outside of it; but when I tell you the same thing about the new wild shape duration you dismiss it ignoring someone's experience. The 1 hr duration even if you get a few more uses. makes it far less useful outside of combat.

Why don't you try to actually play and experience the class/archetype instead of acting like your theory crafting means anything. None of you have even tried to ask what the devs were thinking or going for; just that it's what you say it should be that is supposed to be important to everyone.

As for not making the Fort Save; really that's another reason to make the class Constitution based instead of Wisdom based.

And a final point for those of you complaining about nothing to dip for. Maybe you need to go back and look at why so many abilities in classes from 3.0/3.5 were moved to later levels. It was to discourage dipping. The devs don't care if the class is good for dipping; that isn't the purpose of them and is actually discouraged by game design by intent.


"Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 1 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form."

Are people just ignoring this part of Fluidic body? Because you sure seem to be. Which is a bit ironic as so many of you are quite quick to point out the new wild shape is level + wisdom modifier.


Dracala wrote:
PS: I know I for one am building for Wisdom, because I want the Wild Shape feats that have high Wisdom requirements, more Wild Shapes per day, and a higher AC Bonus from Defensive Instinct.

I think the class would make more sense thematically to dump Wisdom as the important stat, and make it Constitution. Could be that instead of some spiritual connection to nature or whatever, that it is the bodies' physical ability to withstand or to change. Like how a kineticist uses Constitution. You could make the Defensive Instinct still be an AC increase of some sort (wouldn't even need to be Natural; could be still be Dodge and be similar to how in comics characters like Mr Fantastic's or Plasticman's body rebounds with it or warps around it just not to the same degree). And would make sense why armor doesn't remove all of it, but some. It's restrictive to it. Then make Constitution count in place of Wisdom for the Wild Shape feats.

This is supposed to be a Martial class; so it's important stat should be a physical one. Could then have an archetype or feat that gives fast healing or regeneration based on it instead; which off Con makes more sense to cause healing than Wis.

----

As for some of the other things people are saying like in regards to aspects. Maybe give the freedom of Druid Wild Shape; but make the aspects be small categories of animal types (feline, avian, fish, arachnid, etc.) of features you can add to your wild shape form. Give each ability under the type a numeric value and you get so many points per level (think like Eidolon Evolutions). And when you'd normally gain aspects (these would represent specializations of form within the animal kingdom) it adds a new category with features common to that animal type; like one could be Avian: Wings (for flight), Hollow Bones (reduce falling damage), etc.; Arachnid: Climb, Web, extra limbs, etc.; so on and so forth with different animal (or other category of creature type).

This is what Chimeric form does; adds these aspect features to your animal form adding up to your pool and become a hybrid or amalgam of different creatures. Could be a pool like eidolon, or a pool like a magus'.


Dracala wrote:
@Roivan its Not +1 hour, its literally Shifter Level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day, at lvl 9 w/ an 18 in Wisdom and a +6 Headband if you nix the 8 hrs of sleep, you can stay shifted all day long if you want. BUT the purposes of the change isn't about staying in the same form, its so that you can change your form more easily on the fly. As it stands the Druid Version, doesn't really allow that, because of how FEW uses per day it actually has.

I am not talking about class wild shape uses or duration. I know what the rules are for that; and frankly I don't like it as someone that has actually played the class. I can see it is making me lose some of the versatility of not just being for combat. Like 1 game, I flew part of the party in owl form over what would have taken us over a day to walk; in just 8 hours. That wouldn't be efasible at the same level without some min-maxing and end up using most of yourwild shape duration for the day.

But I was talking about items like Druidic Vestment which gives you 1 extra use of wild shape. For a Shifter it would be +1 hour, for a Druid it'd be +1 hour / level.

By having the two Wild Shapes be such vastly different durations; it is making the items be of far less value for one class over the other. It also is going to cause no end of headaches in regards to anyone that say, multiclasses into a class that gets Wild Shape. There are far better ways to fix this than changing the duration of Wild Shape. They could give it more base uses (say start with 3 or 4, or let Wisdom give you bonus ones} and keep the same increase of +1 use per 2 levels. Or make it once per level uses per day; but keep the 1 hour per level duration on each use. It would stop the disparity and trouble arising from different durations. And this would then still allow long term use of a form at a decent level instead of towards what would be the end of most APs.

As for you saying you can stay in it all day. With an 18 Wisdom (+4), and +6 headband (+3) that is +7 hours; you'd have to be level 17 (or 11 if you didn't want to stay in form while sleeping 8 hours; which personally I'd rather stay in animal form especially if it gets a perception bonus) to stay in wild shape all day with those stats. Where as by 17th level as it is in the actual book; you'd have 7 uses per day each of those 17 hours. By the time you're 8th level normally you could be in Wild Shape all day; even if only 3 uses (or 4 with a druid vestament).


I'd say don't make it a size bonus; otherwise you are negating the wild shape bonus and since so many of you all are fighting to make Wild Shape work like the Druid's; you'd just be negating one of the classes abilities.

They could easily just make it something like an inherent bonus, or race bonus. Which especially for skills makes sense; as many creatures have racial bonuses to skills at least. And no races ability mods are considered racial bonuses. It might in some circumstances negate a races racial skill bonus; but by the rules of polymorph you'd likely lose those anyways.

But I still think the new way they are doing Wild Shape just for the Shifter is bad; keep it the same as the druids for duration. If they want give the shifter more shifts a day then increase that in itself; so that IF/When they clarify Shifter counting as a druid for Wild Shape; they are getting equal benefit from the multiple items/feats/etc that are gained. Because +1 hour is not equal to +1 hour per druid/shifter level. And yet costs of the items wouldn't be adjusted for the different of power.

Also someone (LittleMissNaga I believe) asked how the Shifter plays as written. And as someone who has been playing one for a while and is level 8; they play fine as they are. May not be the strongest but I enjoy it; and enjoy it far more than a beastkin berserker (which is what it was originally and switched at level 4) that some have said does the shifting thing better.

Someone else mentioned a feat for additional aspects; there is a magic item that can give you an additional aspect; Bestial Rags. Or it can increase your effective level if it's one you already have.


This is more to the Devs so maybe they can shed some light on what they were thinking when they built the archetype.

For the Elementalist Shifter; what was the logic behind them not getting their Elemental Strike in Elemental form?

For the fire elemental's burn ability you list no DC. Does this mean use the DC 14 from a medium fire elemental? or should it be the 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Stat like most abilities for PCs are? if they're not able to get their main damage strike (the Elemental strike ability) in an elemental aspect; they should at least base the DCs off their HD as most abilities do.


nighttree wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
nighttree wrote:

I can't even figure out how "Shifter Fury" works....anyone think they can explain ?

Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

If I'm parsing correctly, your Full Attack will look like

>Morphic Weapon +6
>Morphic Weapon Iterative +1

...and I don't know if you'd even get to use your other Morphic Weapon (or second Claw for non-Archetyped) unless you had claws from another source. If we guess you can though, that would be

>Morphic Weapon 2 +1

and with 1/2 Strength to damage because of Secondary Natural Weapon penalties.

That's more or less how I'm reading it....so a distinct step down from going TWF.....:(

This is why if they are going to go this path for it; they should just make it more like Flurry of Blows with Shifter's Claws (or what it replaces). Otherwise it is kind of weak, and only benefits a few of the aspects. They gave it to the Monk Menhir guardian archetype with their claws (and specific prof of that archetype which are the "druid weapons"), so no reason not to give it to the Shifter class too. Would be more to make it feel like the Monk + Druid hybrid it seems they were going for, with adding defensive instinct.


Dragon78 wrote:
I can't wait to see the rabbit aspect...It can jump really...it's got really sharp...look at the bones;)

It'll have improved natural attack and improved crit bite, and DR/Holy Hand Grenades.


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Ryuujin-sama wrote:
when shapeshifting into say a Bear would be an Ooze Bear.

But do they bounce?


Really they should just replace Shifter's Fury with Flurry of Blows that works with your Shifter Claws. I say only with Shifter's Claws cause it would get a bit ridiculous on the dino form that can get 5 attacks already; or any that get a bite and 2 claws like the tiger. You'd need a whole new entry just for having that many attacks.

Getting the feat Feral Combat Training would also be nice for the class; with you not having to meet the prerequisites. Either as a bonus feat and let you choose or auto for Shifter's Claws. And have it qualify as Improved Unarmed Strike for prerequisites. Since the class is supposed to be all about natural attacks.


JiCi wrote:
Hmmm... now I have a question: Can you combine Shifter's Fury with Two-Weapon Fighting?

The way it is written, no. The ability never quantifies your secondary attack as a manufactured weapon; only the primary one.

Two-Weapon fighting does not affect natural weapons; so it wouldn't give your "off hand" secondary natural attack any additional attacks.

You'd only get your full iterative attacks with your "fury" attack, and 1 with each of your secondary attacks. Which is what you can do also if you were wielding a weapon in your main hand. This is why the catfolk claw weapons are such a big deal.

So what Shifter's Fury gives you is:
So say you were 11th level and in Humanoid form; you'd get 3 Attacks (at +11/+6/+1) with your main natural weapon and then 1 Attack (at +6) with your off hand.

Or to use the lvl 6 example above; you'd get 2 Attacks with Main Natural weapon (at +6/+1) and then 1 Attack with your off hand (at +1).


"Shifter’s Fury (Ex): At level 6, a shifter gains the ability to make several ferocious attacks with the same natural weapon. Instead of attacking with all her natural weapons, the shifter can choose a single natural weapon and make a full attack with that natural weapon, gaining a second iterative attack at a –5 as if it was a manufactured weapon. When she does so, all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks and don’t benefit from shifter’s claws. At 11th level, she gains a third iterative attack at a –10 and at 16th level, she gains a fourth iterative attack at –15.
This will be reflected in the next errata."

So now it's weaker than if you were just using a weapon; since you don't get Shifter's edge on your "off-hand" attacks with this; but you would with a weapon (on your secondary natural attacks). Not only that but you are now taking a penalty on all of the secondary attack rolls, so you are getting 1 attack at full BAB and the rest all penalized at least by 5 (or 2 if you're allowed to take a Monster feat, Multiattack and actually have 3+ nat attacks). Pretty sure someone mentioned one of the other classes gets as many attacks at their full BAB. So this is less a betterment of the class and more either another step backwards or just a sidestep. It's really only useful for the non-combat forms that get 1 or 2 attacks.

Also you might want to clear up the wording. First you say Instead of attacking with all natural weapons; but then say they count as secondary attacks. This wording will just spawn a plethora of RAW vs RAI debate.

Shifter's Edge: So now only half your level. I really have to ask if you were paying attention to people complaining about the damage? Because if you were, you'd realize cutting their damage even via a feat isn't helping it. Especially as you are totally nixing it from secondary shifter claw attacks.

And not only here did you cut damage; you did it with at least one of the animals attack dice. Like Tiger Claws (for a Dire Tiger which you say you're taking the form of) are 2d4 not 1d8. Yes only 1 point (or more depending on Crit multiplier) but it's still a cut and makes no sense why you're going against the animal form's stats that you refer too. Haven't bothered looking at all the other forms; but maybe your team should.


graystone wrote:
Roivan wrote:
Serisan wrote:
My curiosity here is if the revamp of the Shifter also includes some consideration of things that the Shifter doesn't qualify for, but clearly should have some claim to, such as Wild Speech.
Why would they not qualify for Wild Speech? they have Wild Shape class feature, and under that feature for things that use Wild Shape they are counted as a druid. Thus a 6th lvl Shifter should qualify for the feat.

You can take it but the druid level only counts for prerequisites. As such, the speak with animals SLA has a caster level of 0 [your druid levels] and lasts 0 min [your druid level].

"for the purpose of qualifying for prerequisites, her effective druid level is equal to her shifter level."

Ok so the first half of the feat, doesn't rely on a caster level; thus they can still speak while in wild shape.

The second half; the Speak with Animals is kind of redundant anyways due to part of Wild Shape "A shifter ... can communicate with other animals of the same general grouping as her form." Which Wild Speech only lets her use it on animals of the same type and does pretty much the same thing; since ask questions (but doesn't force them to answer it) is pretty much just communication.


Serisan wrote:
My curiosity here is if the revamp of the Shifter also includes some consideration of things that the Shifter doesn't qualify for, but clearly should have some claim to, such as Wild Speech.

Why would they not qualify for Wild Speech? they have Wild Shape class feature, and under that feature for things that use Wild Shape they are counted as a druid. Thus a 6th lvl Shifter should qualify for the feat.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I brought it up in another thread, but I'll revisit it here, just so it doesn't get lost:

What is the interaction of Druid 'Wild Shape' and Shifter 'Wild Shape'

And how does a magic item like a Druid's Vestement now work? 1 use for both; but a Druid it lasts hours equal to level and a Shifter only gets an hour? So for one class it's not near as useful even though it is the same class feature.

Or how about the trait Druid of Society, it extends the duration to 2 hours per level for small or medium animals; it's more effective for one than the other even though both should qualify.

With having 2 classes with the same class feature work this differently in relation to duration, you're just opening things up to more issues.


graystone wrote:
Roivan wrote:
How is it backwards? You sound like you are assuming that you have to change out of your animal form; multiple ways not to and still be able to communicate with others. And getting stuck in a form is less linked to uses of wild shape and more to how many aspects you can have.

It has NOTHING to do with communication. Say your sifter comes across a situation where flight is handy. before it takes an ENTIRE use for what might be only a few minutes of use and is one less use of combat/monster pounce. Or you want to sneak by someone as a mouse... That one mouse sneak is another use. Now it's JUST a single hour.

So hour block lets utility forms to be used without the fear that doing so will leave you without a combat form for later. The change might leave you with less leap/pounce/death but it allows non-combat forms to shine.

And now if you want to sleep, stay on guard duty in an animal form (say for their senses, because the minor aspect doing it is not going to be able to do it), or trying to track someone by scent which may take hours; it becomes nearly impossible to do or uses all of your wild shape time. They traded one problem for another. This is not a fix, it's only a shifting of problems.


swoosh wrote:
Roivan wrote:
Having more uses might be good thing; but reducing the time to be in those forms by this amount is going to relegate them to being almost nothing but a combat class.
Having less total shifting time is unfortunate, but this conclusion is pretty backwards. More uses makes flexing into noncombat forms significantly more viable. Really the whole impetus for the change was that it was too easy at low-mid levels to get 'stuck' in form because you had so few total uses.

How is it backwards? You sound like you are assuming that you have to change out of your animal form; multiple ways not to and still be able to communicate with others. And getting stuck in a form is less linked to uses of wild shape and more to how many aspects you can have.

willuwontu wrote:
Roivan wrote:
level 4 - 1 x for 4 hours now becomes 4 times for 4 hours.

You do realize its Level + Wis Modifier hours day now?

Granted you could have a Wis modifier of 0, and yes it's still less than the old amount of time.

And yes I do realize it adds your wisdom mod to the hours; that's going to be what? maybe 3-6? depending on the build and how much you've put into it.


As someone that actually was enjoying the class as it was, regardless of so many complaining about it. I think the changes to wild shape are a move backwards. You may be giving more shifts per day but you are severely reducing the amount of time that you can remain in said forms and thus it is losing some major versatility to use the bonuses from the aspects for non-combat means.

In a game I am currently playing a level 8 Shifter; I could maintain an animal form for 24 hours; 3 shifts a day at 8 hours each. Now, it's been cut to a third of that time. Having more uses might be good thing; but reducing the time to be in those forms by this amount is going to relegate them to being almost nothing but a combat class. Each time they'd normally have gained another use you are cutting the time again.

level 4 - 1 x for 4 hours now becomes 4 times for 4 hours.
level 6 - 2 x for 6 hours each (12 hours) now becomes 6 hours.
level 8 - 3 x for 8 hours each (24 hours) now becomes 8 hours.
level 10 - 4 x for 10 hours each (40 hours) now becomes 10 hours.
level 12 - 5 x for 12 hours each (60 hours) is now only 12 hours.

And so on... even with the bonus from Wisdom adding in hours it doesn't change the drastic drop in their hours able to be transformed. After 24 hours yes you have extra hours that cannot possibly be used in a day; but you get extra uses to assume new forms. But perhaps a better fix than changing uses and time is to link Wild Shape more with the Minor Aspect; and any time they activate a Minor Aspect they can change their Wild Shape to match it as a standard action. Or just allow them more freedom with their wild shape and be able to switch between major forms and only have a use end once they revert to humanoid form.

I also think changing Wisdom for them and giving them something else to base defensive instinct off of would be better. And giving them something so they can take all those Wisdom 19+ wild shape feats without having to dump so much into Wisdom to be able to get them would be nice.

As it is, right now they kind of need a high Dex until they can get Wild armor (or have a magic source for it or barding with a magic source to quickly put it on) to have a decent AC. You also either need to base their combat on Dex for finesse or also have Strength as well as Con to help them be a frontliner and having high HP. Con would be a good second ability stat for them; or maybe it's a good time to put in a 2nd class with d12 Hit points. Adding in Wisdom to the mix is making them have too many important ability scores.


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Common (Taldane) is only common in the inner sea region. If you go to Tian Xia there is a different common (it's a dialect of Tien). The same could be seen to be true in the 2/3 of Garund that we know nothing about, and in the Kelish Empire, Vudra and Arcadia.

And even if someone speaks common, does that mean they prefer to use it? No. Can it (and would it likely) be seen as some degree of insult to the culture to be forced too? Yes. Then there are dialects, something the game seems to utterly ignore outside of the single spell Cultural Adaptation.